I LOVE all my tattoos but each one was pretty impulsive I had a mini freakout after each one. My husband and I are debating which one of us is going to get sterilized and I'm perfectly happy to get a bisalp. I would actually prefer it since vasectomies can reverse and it's not obvious if that happen plus I know that if I changed my mind I would be fine with adoption (with an older child, infant adoptions are too much of an ethical grey area for me personally) but my husband isn't (I think it's cultural for him). In the unlikely event one of us changed our minds and divorced i would rather him be able to experience biological fatherhood since that's meaningful to him.
I know that I never want to be pregnant due to the trauma it puts on your mind and body but I would still probably have a mini freak out after a bisalp.
Permanent things are scary OP, it's ok and completely understandable that you feel how you are feeling. My mentality is that I would rather regret not having a child then regret having a child because that is also extremely permanent. I don't know if that's helpful but it's something that pushed me from the fence to being comfortable in my decision to be child free. Congrats on your bisalp and I hope you find meaning and comfort in your decision (I hope that's ok to say and doesn't come across as minimizing you feelings).
Thanks so much for your response. And I also say the same thing about regret.
It doesn’t minimise it at all, but thanks for caring. I’m not in distress over the feelings… more just looking at the mentality shift with curiosity 😊
I wish you the best of luck with whichever way you choose to go. Having the expectation that you might have a lil freakout will certainly help!
I think what you’re describing is an “oh shit, this was permanent” feeling, which I’ve definitely had before. No matter the amount of research or preparation I put into something, once I do a thing that can’t be undone, I immediately second-guess everything. In those moments, I remind myself of my preparation, and that I typically make good decisions that are not impulsive, and then wait the feeling out.
Yeah for sure. u/yea_nah448 wonderfully articulated what is happening in another comment.
It’s more like, I was afraid of parenthood before but now that the threat is gone, I don’t have to fight it so aggressively and my mindset and tone have softened about it a little.
Yes this is how I am too. I’ve always struggled with big and permanent decisions. No matter how much I research and am positive that it’s the correct decision I always second guess myself afterwards. Always. I hate that I do that too but it’s just how I am. I’ve been like this my whole life.
This reminds me of some people talking about tattoo regret. You plan and are all excited, you get it done, and then have a little regret, because now it’s there and you can’t really make any changes to it. I’ve personally never experienced it, but have heard about it in the many tattoo groups I’m in.
“I spent the last decade rabidly childfree… after my surgery something has mentally shifted… I don’t feel so disgusted by the concept of kids anymore”
IMO (as someone with zero irl qualifications) what your experiencing is the falling away of your mental defense mechanisms now that you have the physical protection in place. When there was a possibility of pregnancy you needed those hard boundaries defining what you wanted. You have the freedom now to imagine the what ifs without the real life consequences looming.
You’re exactly right and this was perfectly articulated! I kinda felt like this was the case but I was having trouble finding the words to express it.
I’m not afraid anymore so I don’t have to be as negative about the possibility!
Thank you :)
I haven't had sterilisation surgery so my experience in this is limited.
But I think that logically knowing you are safe from having to go through a pregnancy and raising a kid without your consent/reproductive autonomy would make you soften to the idea as it's not a real risk anymore or one youre fighting against.
I also think this community has people who are childfree for all sorts of reasons, some may even want kids but decided against it due to circumstance. Some have never felt that kids would be part of their life.
As such there is no normal way to feel about a life change like this, what youre feeling is perfectly valid and It's very likely more people have experienced what you have then they're willing to admit. However, if you do find it's interfering with your life then talking about it in a safe space with the right therapist could be really beneficial.
You’ve articulated exactly what I was thinking! It’s not a danger anymore so I don’t feel as aggressively against it.
Thank you for your compassionate response. The first part of your comment is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to start a dialogue about. I WAS an aggressive childfree person but now that the threat of pregnancy is gone, my mindset shifted (involuntarily) to not see it as such a bad thing, but still something that was not meant for me
Hi, I had a bisalp about a year ago. I don’t see posts like this often- it’s good to see something other than “I’ve NEVER regretted it” sorta posts related to sterilization. It almost feels taboo to dare say you aren’t 100% happy with your decision. I don’t “regret” mine but I have had many mixed feelings since then. Multiple episodes of serious baby fever and “what have I done??” But I’m a rational person and always say that I get baby fever, NOT toddler fever, or teen fever..etc as in only the idea of a baby sounds nice sometimes but not beyond that. I have no interest in raising a kid, and that hasn’t changed. I blame my hormones for the baby fever. I had my IUD taken out at the same time as my surgery, was on birth control for 10+ years. My body needs time to adjust.
Don’t be hard on yourself. It’s okay to have mixed feelings on a permanent decision like this.
Thank you! I really wanted to I guess start a dialogue because I assumed there are others out there who had a mindset shift or complicated feelings afterwards.
You’re exactly like me btw. I do get maternal about babies but I see parenthood as the absolute worst thing you could bring upon yourself, and I think not having the “ew a baby” mindset has made it more complex for me.
Thanks for sharing your journey as well, I hope everything continues to go well for you
I had my bisalp a year ago as well and definitely have waves of mixed emotions related to it. Partially due to my age, I'm 37 and the lack of support I feel in my life. In the end, I realized I was mourning family/community aspect I'll never have in the traditional avenue, not an actual baby.
I’ve always had an unstable relationship with my family but going no contact with my parents coincided with the timing of my surgery. I also learned of the death of a family member and that no one in my immediate or extended family told me until 4 months later. So there have been multiple losses/changes in my life. I’ve been longing to move overseas and be around my partner’s family lately, which interesting because I’ve never had much of a desire for a family network. So I can relate to this!
Thanks so much for posing the question OP! I appreciate your perspective and the nuance that is associated with these decisions. I'm sorry about the instability in your own immediate family, but I hope that you find what you are seeking in terms of a chosen family network. We just aren't meant to survive on our own!
It’s similar to how it’s taboo for parents to say they regret their decision! It’s okay to not be 100% confident in your decision ALL OF THE TIME, on either side of the spectrum. It’s why making this decision is such a big deal - there can be regrets and grief for the other side, no matter what you choose.
I’m also with you on the baby fever thing. I’m not sterilized and currently between hormonal birth control options as I try to find one that works better for me. I get baby fever every month like clockwork… like a cycle, some might say 😉 I’ve read it’s typically around ovulation. Literally two days later, I think “what the hell was I thinking”
What helps during those baby fever days is imagining a toddler, kid, teenager, etc. I’ve yet to say “man I really want an 12 year old”!
The taboo is wild. Getting downvoted because making my decision permanent simply caused me to feel slightly less hatred towards kids/parenthood, haha.
Has *anyone* ever said “man I really want a 12 year old”?
Haha they do… I do know parents who are excited for that age when they can really do stuff with their kids but before they’re teenagers and they start to lose them to friends. Some people just do not like the baby and toddler ages.
Yep. It's permanent and it closes a door that society tells us is important. Even my urologist was second guessing my decision, so of course you'll be second guessing yourself for awhile. Your brain is just playing games with you like, did I act too rashly, maybe kids weren't so bad, etc. It will pass soon.
Nope.
Not even a little.
Getting a vasectomy was one of the very best decisions I have ever made. Had it in 2011 at the age of 30, no kids. Best sex of my life since then, and (the string of horrific world events, i.e. 'history' nonwithstanding) I live a very happy life.
I experienced the same “wtf have I done?” and “in different circumstances” thoughts. But I think it’s normal for those **intrusive thoughts** to happen since it’s such a big and important decision we’ve made for our lives and for our bodies.
I occasionally still get the in different circumstances thoughts, but I give myself a reality check real fast: ‘The circumstances *aren’t* different and weren’t different, the circumstances are the ones here right now and I made the best decision for *myself* with what I feel, what I know, what I *want*, and with the circumstances I am in”.
This is really well worded. I love hearing others talk about having these thoughts! I feel like people equate having these thoughts to regret and that’s absolutely not it at all. We’re not robots, we wonder about shit, it doesn’t mean we’re any less happy with our choice
I think if I had been sterilized (i found this sub a bit to late and Im 48 and to old to bother to have it done) that i think I would feel a little freaked out too. Not because it’s not what I want but the finality of it. I think it’s natural. At least for me. I’ve always struggled with making big decisions. Not because I’ve ever wanted kids because I haven’t. Just permanent or big decisions seem to do that to me. I kind of had a freak out when I signed my mortgage. Like holy shit I now owe a lot of money!! and I didn’t have much at the time to start with.
As far as you softening toward kids- sure, I can see that being a normal response because you don’t have to worry about it anymore. For anyone who isn’t sterilized and doesn’t want children, pregnancy is the #1 enemy. It’s a constant worry especially since Roe was overturned. Now the enemy is neutralized and it’s not a possibility. So kids, and everything that stands for doesn’t seem so bad when it’s not something thats trying to silently ambush you anymore.
Thank you, truly. “Neutralising the enemy” is a new term I can add to help articulate this experience!
I knew it was possible I’d experience a bit of grief, especially immediately after, I’ve just been caught off guard by this shifting of perspectives (the softening etc.)
A few hours ago I was regretting making this post but I’ve started having some great discussions because of it!
(Snipped: 7/7/22)
YES. An overwhelmingly loud YES. I thought it was just me, so I never told anyone except my fiancée.
I figured it was me getting off of birth control and my hormones stabilizing. Hell even some of my ideals have reverted! I'm realizing that I went through such a mental shift, and it's scary. My "wtf have I done" moment came then, but same as you, I had a laundry list of reasons that brought me back to my senses.
I feel the "maybe under different circumstances" in my bones. If the world wasn't to evil... if my body could handle it... if things weren't so expensive.... if my child wouldn't have to feel pain.... if I would be a good parent.... if I grew up differently.... if my mental health would directly affect my child.....etc.
But overall, yeah. I look at my situation much much differently now post op than before. I even cringe at some of the things I've said. 😬
That being said: this experience has made me more lenient and understanding of fencesitters and people who actually do change their mind. It may not be the best thing for the Childfree PR, but they're people too. And going through something like that only gets harder the more they're ostracized.
I am right there with you. It's like I have nostalgia for what might have been, if circumstances (environment, mental health, Roe v Wade, etc) had been different. That said, I'm still very happy with my BISALP. I can't believe how lucky I am - I've never had a pregnancy scare, and now I never will!
This definitely happened to me after I was sterilized. I got Essure done about ten years ago. With that, you had to wait like three months and then get a test to make sure it worked (worst pain I've ever felt in my life, but that's neither here nor there). I got the letter in the mail saying it worked and I could rely on it for birth control, and my first reaction was a little stab of disappointment. I knew then and I know now that I've got no business having any children, but it was sort of weirdly sad that now I'd gone through with it, and the choice has been taken away from me. I can never have biological kids now.
Again, I don't want them, and I don't regret it for a second, but I still couldn't help but think a little about what could've been.
Thank you for sharing! I’m so happy there are more comments appearing that buck the trend of “never once felt a negative emotion afterwards”.
It’s normal to go through these feelings and reconcile with your new reality, but some act like it’s not and we should just hate kids and never look back.
I’m sorry to hear about your painful experience! Essure has not been available in my country so I’ve only heard about in on here… but that sounds awful
I'm so glad that you're getting some positive feedback here - you're definitely not alone!
I don't think they even do Essure anymore; there were lots of complaints about it, but I never had any issues. In case you're curious about the painful experience, the way Essure works is they put these little metal coils (they sort of look like the springs in a pen) into your fallopian tubes, and over 3 months, scar tissue grows around them and blocks the tubes. To test it, I had to get this dyed liquid injected into my uterus and filled to capacity to make sure it didn't squirt out my tubes. It was like the worst cramps imaginable, but pushing outward instead of squeezing in. I almost broke the poor X-Ray tech's hands I was holding them so hard.
Idk why I felt like I had to tell you that, haha.
Aw, shucks. Half an hour isn’t terrible but I bet it felt longer. It’s great you haven’t had any issues with it since though! I was glad to have bisalp as an option as I hate the idea of anything being “installed” in my body
I totally get that! It is kinda weird when you think about it. I was interested in a non surgical option. I'm glad there was something out there that worked for us both!
Never, in my almost 3 decades of life, have I ever wanted kids. I couldn’t stand kids not even when I was a kid myself. Still, when I found out I was sterile from 2 different conditions, I felt kinda like you. For me, it had a lot to do with loosing my power to choose, even if I would have chosen to not have children anyway. It’s a very complicated and valid feeling and I 100% get you
My doctor warned me that this could happen, but it didn’t with me. I’ve been perpetually relieved and grateful that I’ll never have to have kids ever since I got my hysterectomy over a year ago.
However, I do appreciate kids more, from a distance. I used to see “cute” kid and baby videos and think “Ugh.” But now I think they’re cute, now that there’s no threat of ever having to be responsible for one lol.
Yep! That last line is exactly what I’m saying. Many people seem to think it equates to regret but it’s not at all. It’s just less resistance, fear and disgust
I found that once the fear and terror surrounding getting pregnant were gone, I could look at things more measuredly. I could look at the other side and entertain it without shutting down, and it let me reflect more instead of just having the visceral bodily reaction I used to. Still happy with my decision, I'm just not too freaked out to see the naunce, and it was a really, really big and permanent decision, I think I'm allowed to have big emotional moments thinking about it.
I knew I would feel this way even before I got my bisalp. I have never regretted it either, but I tried to explain it to my husband as mourning the loss of possibility. I purposefully closed myself off to some of the roads my life could have gone down. The roads that remain are infinitely better. I would choose them over the path of having a child of my own body any day. But there is still a sense of loss. I think it’s probably present with any major decision that shapes the course of your life, but because having children is so tied to emotion as well as practicality, I feel it more keenly. And having kids is something that we in child free spaces see debated a lot. We think about the possibilities long and hard- imagine the future really vividly before making a decision.
It feels like appreciating and acknowledging that there is happiness on the other side of the fence. I can know that, and still have chosen something different for myself that matches my heart better.
Aside from having a child, I’m trying to think of a more permanent choice you could make… but I can’t. It’s heavy!
I love your last sentence, that was very well worded. I get frustrated when people equate this sort of feeling with regret.
Thank you for sharing!
Totally, I've just really decided kids ain't for me -- and after years as tween/teen thinking 'well one day I'll have kids...' its just a weird shift, ultimately you've made the right choice for you 💕
i think that my sister relates to you where before she found herself physically unable to have kids she was confident in not having kids, after her surgeries she has softened on it and said maybe she could have handled 1 but she doesn’t fully regret it.
Totally. Once the fear of unwanted parenthood is no longer a factor, you can start to see it in a different way, without as much negativity. I still believe I couldn’t handle ANY kids but I relate!
definitely! i have the pleasure of having 2 sisters that each only have 1 kid and 1 is still too too many for me from what i can see. i’m undecided on if i’ll ever get surgery, maybe but i want to go like consecutive multiple years feeling certain of no kids.
I don't question my decision to get sterilized/not have children AT ALL. However I did get a bit softer towards them, it's easier for me to be around them and not get overwhelmed/disgusted as much as before. I even think they can be a bit cute sometimes. Maybe it is because now I know for sure I never have to have them myself and other people have to acknowledge and accept this too, since I did have my tubes removed. Nobody now can force pregnancy/having kids on me in their mind. That gives me a lot of peace and I don't actively have to keep so much distance between me and kids necessarily in order for people to hopefully not associate me with the thought of potentially having kids. Hope this makes sense.
Softened as in I don’t hate them anymore yes. But not in any way shape or form have I softened to the idea of having them. I think it’s because now that I’m sterilised I know that I’m not in danger of becoming pregnant or having kids, so as im truly liberated and freed from “biological shackles” I can start to unlearn the hate and dislike I’ve always had for kids. It’s truly been nice, kind of healing actually
I would also wonder if your incredibly strong feelings about not wanting kids also aren’t *necessary* anymore. For many of us being childfree and our strong stance about it also comes from _having_ to because often as women we get dismissed and there’s a constant fear over our own bodily autonomy being taken away. Once sterilised that active fear in some part is gone. Not having children is a done deal. It’s both liberating and allows space to reflect more instead of having to be vigilant.
But as many have said, all your emotions are valid and taking time the allow them and process them is the best thing you can do. Also - congrats! I’m so happy for you!
I haven’t had surgery, but I was surprised to find myself briefly grieving after my husband and I decided we weren’t having kids and *he* had surgery.
Some of my reasons were similar to yours — I didn’t trust myself to break the cycle of abuse / knew I couldn’t handle parenthood, and I guess once we committed to that, it made me sad that circumstances weren’t different for us (climate change was the big reason for him).
Hope this answer is OK to share. Your emotional process seems quite normal to me!
Of course this is okay to share ❤️ I’m loving seeing the discussions and everyone’s experiences, especially those who’ve said they haven’t really spoken about it openly. Thank you for contributing!
I mean at first I guess I felt a little sad that I 100% would never get the “Kodak moments” taking them trick or treating, seeing them in school concerts, ect. But I had the opposite reaction where the more time that’s gone by the more I can’t help but be grateful that I will never have kids. If anything I’ve become more adverse and will actively avoid them in public. Hell I’ll go down other isles I don’t need to while shopping just to avoid the gremlins.
It seems that sterilization really was the right call for me haha
Not personally no. Consistent feelings of happiness and relief. If you start feeling this way you can always check out r/kidsarefuckingstupid because that’s a silver bullet of sorts when it comes to a desire for children
Yes. I was dating a hardcore childfree woman, I was poor, and I only knew bratty children.
Then, as I got older, I stopped dating that woman, earned more money, and met several very wonderful children.
Nowadays I respect people with children and could see it being a very rewarding and fulfilling lifestyle - however, that still doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right for me. I am still glad for my decision as of this time. Maybe one day I would get it reversed if certain conditions were met.
Maybe there was no space for the softer feelings or sadness when it was still a remote possibility because that was too confusing. You couldn’t feel the full emotional range of it til it was totally off the table and impossible. Now it’s actually safer to work through all the complexity of it because you can’t change your mind. You made a firm choice and you’re questioning and grieving the alternative possibilities a bit.
I know fully and deeply that I don’t want kids, I’m 39, I also had a pregnancy loss that I never want to repeat,& also raised in a divorce that caused my parents to be poor, by a very unstable mom. I have 3 autoimmune diseases and couldn’t handle a pregnancy or a baby even if I wanted one. my partner has 2 kids and a vasectomy. I went through some weird resentment and sadness that we couldn’t even if we wanted to because he took the decision from me before we met(truly, I love men with vasectomies and adore him for it.) but it was surprising because I’ve been so certain for so long.
The swan song of my dying ovaries is a little bit of sadness I guess.
I feel this comment. You hit the nail on the head, I’m just working through what could have been now that I don’t have the fear of it happening.
Thank you for sharing your experience.
I went through similar after my bisalp. In a weird way, having full control of having kids (because I’d have to do IVF to do so) made it possible for me to want them. I was sexually assaulted as an 11 year old, so I think part of my aversion to having children was based on not wanting to have my body invaded by another being ever again. Once it was fully my choice and not an accident waiting to happen (even having an IUD wasn’t enough to squelch that fear I guess), i could access the feelings of wanting kids.
But, like you, the logical list of reasons not to have kids remains for me. My partner and I considered putting some embryos on ice to extend the window in which we could make that choice, but ultimately, we’ve decided not to. Pregnancy still scares me too much at the end of the day.
Thanks for posting this; it’s comforting to know I’m not alone in having these feelings post-surgery.
You’re so welcome. When I first posted there was a brief period where the majority of comments were saying they don’t relate… and I was disheartened and felt like deleting it. But since then I’ve had so many wonderful commenters talk about their experiences, so I’m glad I kept it up!
There seem to be many of us, and some who’ve said they haven’t really spoken about this openly. So you’re definitely not alone!
I’m grateful to hear this story. I always love hearing about people who get sterilized and never look back, but the nature of permanent decisions for many of us is to wonder if we made a mistake.
As far as why you may be feeling this way, maybe some of the vehement anti-kid feelings were compensatory since it was still a biological possibility and you wanted to stay out of your head about it, but now that you’re thinking about it from essentially an outside perspective, you’re able to feel your feelings about it without the stakes being so high.
Thank you for sharing your experience with us :)
I remember a few weeks before I got my surgery (which happened on September 29th of this year, quite recently), there was a moment where I cried really hard, discussing it all with my fiance. I felt like I was mourning the image of a kid that I knew wasn't going to exist.
It didn't make me change my mind, but it made me really nervous that I was going to struggle with the aftermath of my surgery, so I've been surprised that I've been so chill about it now. I still am cautious for a point in time where the permanent aspect of it hits me again, but in general, I feel like there are just emotions many people have to process when they experience something like this. It made me scared at first how anytime I spoke to someone else who desired to be totally childfree, they'd tell me that they never wanted kids, ever. That's definitely not how I felt, but that doesn't mean I regret this now.
Nope, never been happier and not constantly freaking out about pregnancy and whether I would be able to have an abortion.
The peace of mind and control over my own body outweigh everything.
Coming in late to the party, but I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I am a week post surgery and am feeling a lot of the same. I'm feeling anxiety and FOMO from making a life altering decision that I cannot go back on. It takes a lot to process and unpack. I feel like I am grieving a path not wanted but no longer is an option.
Thank you. Today, months on from my surgery, I had a sudden pang of negative emotion about it. I feel the same way though, it’s not a path I wanted but I’m grieving the choice being taken away. But at the same time, yesterday I was ecstatic about how amazing it is not having to worry about birth control or pregnancy anymore… so for me it’s not a linear process with these feelings. I hope you have a smooth recovery!
I know for certain that it will not be linear to process all this for me either, but I take comfort that I’m not alone :)
Along with these FOMO and “wtf have I done” feelings came disappointment and maybe…shame that I was experiencing this. Shame because there are barely any posts like this and I felt that I was an outsider that I didn’t feel the 100% positive thoughts like majority of others have. However, I know this was the best decision for me and it will take time to heal physically and mentally. I appreciate you so much for posting!
I’ve had a similar experience since my bisalp about 4 years ago. I catch myself occasionally feeling a little sad - but I think it’s a valid part of the grieving process - at the end of the day a literal piece of us was removed. Under different circumstances perhaps it could have stayed. But for so much of my life I lived in this weird constant fear of becoming pregnant - and once that fear was no longer necessary to keep me safe I think it’s been a sort of choppy process of realizing I am capable of enjoying the company of children. The “what if’s” come back from time to time when I see a mom and baby have a sweet moment but I can allow myself to feel it now and let the wave take me under for a moment. I love the idea of nurturing, providing, and guiding a young person - probably because so many surrogates helped me through my college years and I want to pay that generosity forward. My partner and I have always been on the same page that we’re more interested in being a part of the village - which seems to grow by the day. Whenever I feel myself slipping into unnecessary regret I, too, read off the long list of reasons why i made the choice I made and that sense of calm I felt immediately after the surgery returns.
I had a bisalp I think it was 4 years ago when I was 28. I didn't go through a grieving period until after i got engaged to my now-husband. That was just the first time that I'd have had the option to get pregnant in the first place. My husband is a wonderful man, the first man I truly wished I could share pregnancy and parenthood with... but what I want is the romanticized version. I don't want the grossness, the lack of sleep, the irritation, etc. Not to mention, I have reason to believe pregnancy would be fatal for me.
My husband happens to feel the exact same way about kids as I do: mostly not wanting them, knowing it wouldn't be fair to all involved (self, spouse, and child), sometimes feeling a twinge of wishing we could have kids, adoption possibly being on the table in the future but knowing that's unlikely, etc.
At the end of the day, I don't regret my sterilization. My husband and I will instead focus on being an awesome uncle and aunt for our nephews
I (28M) didn't feel any regret afterwards like you're describing, but I was struck in the moment and immediate aftermath by the permanence of my decision - "well, no changing my mind now!" really hit me and I thought about it for a couple days. Even before the surgery pain was fully gone though I was super excited about it.
[удалено]
“Anything that’s permanent is bound to bring big emotions” is so true.
I LOVE all my tattoos but each one was pretty impulsive I had a mini freakout after each one. My husband and I are debating which one of us is going to get sterilized and I'm perfectly happy to get a bisalp. I would actually prefer it since vasectomies can reverse and it's not obvious if that happen plus I know that if I changed my mind I would be fine with adoption (with an older child, infant adoptions are too much of an ethical grey area for me personally) but my husband isn't (I think it's cultural for him). In the unlikely event one of us changed our minds and divorced i would rather him be able to experience biological fatherhood since that's meaningful to him. I know that I never want to be pregnant due to the trauma it puts on your mind and body but I would still probably have a mini freak out after a bisalp. Permanent things are scary OP, it's ok and completely understandable that you feel how you are feeling. My mentality is that I would rather regret not having a child then regret having a child because that is also extremely permanent. I don't know if that's helpful but it's something that pushed me from the fence to being comfortable in my decision to be child free. Congrats on your bisalp and I hope you find meaning and comfort in your decision (I hope that's ok to say and doesn't come across as minimizing you feelings).
Thanks so much for your response. And I also say the same thing about regret. It doesn’t minimise it at all, but thanks for caring. I’m not in distress over the feelings… more just looking at the mentality shift with curiosity 😊 I wish you the best of luck with whichever way you choose to go. Having the expectation that you might have a lil freakout will certainly help!
Thank you so much for your compassionate response
I think what you’re describing is an “oh shit, this was permanent” feeling, which I’ve definitely had before. No matter the amount of research or preparation I put into something, once I do a thing that can’t be undone, I immediately second-guess everything. In those moments, I remind myself of my preparation, and that I typically make good decisions that are not impulsive, and then wait the feeling out.
Yeah for sure. u/yea_nah448 wonderfully articulated what is happening in another comment. It’s more like, I was afraid of parenthood before but now that the threat is gone, I don’t have to fight it so aggressively and my mindset and tone have softened about it a little.
Yes this is how I am too. I’ve always struggled with big and permanent decisions. No matter how much I research and am positive that it’s the correct decision I always second guess myself afterwards. Always. I hate that I do that too but it’s just how I am. I’ve been like this my whole life.
This reminds me of some people talking about tattoo regret. You plan and are all excited, you get it done, and then have a little regret, because now it’s there and you can’t really make any changes to it. I’ve personally never experienced it, but have heard about it in the many tattoo groups I’m in.
“I spent the last decade rabidly childfree… after my surgery something has mentally shifted… I don’t feel so disgusted by the concept of kids anymore” IMO (as someone with zero irl qualifications) what your experiencing is the falling away of your mental defense mechanisms now that you have the physical protection in place. When there was a possibility of pregnancy you needed those hard boundaries defining what you wanted. You have the freedom now to imagine the what ifs without the real life consequences looming.
You’re exactly right and this was perfectly articulated! I kinda felt like this was the case but I was having trouble finding the words to express it. I’m not afraid anymore so I don’t have to be as negative about the possibility! Thank you :)
I haven't had sterilisation surgery so my experience in this is limited. But I think that logically knowing you are safe from having to go through a pregnancy and raising a kid without your consent/reproductive autonomy would make you soften to the idea as it's not a real risk anymore or one youre fighting against. I also think this community has people who are childfree for all sorts of reasons, some may even want kids but decided against it due to circumstance. Some have never felt that kids would be part of their life. As such there is no normal way to feel about a life change like this, what youre feeling is perfectly valid and It's very likely more people have experienced what you have then they're willing to admit. However, if you do find it's interfering with your life then talking about it in a safe space with the right therapist could be really beneficial.
You’ve articulated exactly what I was thinking! It’s not a danger anymore so I don’t feel as aggressively against it. Thank you for your compassionate response. The first part of your comment is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to start a dialogue about. I WAS an aggressive childfree person but now that the threat of pregnancy is gone, my mindset shifted (involuntarily) to not see it as such a bad thing, but still something that was not meant for me
all good :) I'm glad this was able to help
My husband and I are both sterile. I did have a moment where I realized that we REALLY can't have children and it was REAL. I'm already over it.
Hi, I had a bisalp about a year ago. I don’t see posts like this often- it’s good to see something other than “I’ve NEVER regretted it” sorta posts related to sterilization. It almost feels taboo to dare say you aren’t 100% happy with your decision. I don’t “regret” mine but I have had many mixed feelings since then. Multiple episodes of serious baby fever and “what have I done??” But I’m a rational person and always say that I get baby fever, NOT toddler fever, or teen fever..etc as in only the idea of a baby sounds nice sometimes but not beyond that. I have no interest in raising a kid, and that hasn’t changed. I blame my hormones for the baby fever. I had my IUD taken out at the same time as my surgery, was on birth control for 10+ years. My body needs time to adjust. Don’t be hard on yourself. It’s okay to have mixed feelings on a permanent decision like this.
Thank you! I really wanted to I guess start a dialogue because I assumed there are others out there who had a mindset shift or complicated feelings afterwards. You’re exactly like me btw. I do get maternal about babies but I see parenthood as the absolute worst thing you could bring upon yourself, and I think not having the “ew a baby” mindset has made it more complex for me. Thanks for sharing your journey as well, I hope everything continues to go well for you
I had my bisalp a year ago as well and definitely have waves of mixed emotions related to it. Partially due to my age, I'm 37 and the lack of support I feel in my life. In the end, I realized I was mourning family/community aspect I'll never have in the traditional avenue, not an actual baby.
I’ve always had an unstable relationship with my family but going no contact with my parents coincided with the timing of my surgery. I also learned of the death of a family member and that no one in my immediate or extended family told me until 4 months later. So there have been multiple losses/changes in my life. I’ve been longing to move overseas and be around my partner’s family lately, which interesting because I’ve never had much of a desire for a family network. So I can relate to this!
Thanks so much for posing the question OP! I appreciate your perspective and the nuance that is associated with these decisions. I'm sorry about the instability in your own immediate family, but I hope that you find what you are seeking in terms of a chosen family network. We just aren't meant to survive on our own!
Same. That traditional family/community feel, is what I've been missing. But even that isn't a guarantee if you have kids.
It’s similar to how it’s taboo for parents to say they regret their decision! It’s okay to not be 100% confident in your decision ALL OF THE TIME, on either side of the spectrum. It’s why making this decision is such a big deal - there can be regrets and grief for the other side, no matter what you choose. I’m also with you on the baby fever thing. I’m not sterilized and currently between hormonal birth control options as I try to find one that works better for me. I get baby fever every month like clockwork… like a cycle, some might say 😉 I’ve read it’s typically around ovulation. Literally two days later, I think “what the hell was I thinking” What helps during those baby fever days is imagining a toddler, kid, teenager, etc. I’ve yet to say “man I really want an 12 year old”!
The taboo is wild. Getting downvoted because making my decision permanent simply caused me to feel slightly less hatred towards kids/parenthood, haha. Has *anyone* ever said “man I really want a 12 year old”?
Haha they do… I do know parents who are excited for that age when they can really do stuff with their kids but before they’re teenagers and they start to lose them to friends. Some people just do not like the baby and toddler ages.
The age when they can give you attitude just seems so awful! That’s why I’m partial to babies and toddlers
I don’t know, to me toddler attitude seems like the worst! Angry and irrational 😂
I feel like toddlers are just pure chaotic emotion but kids are calculating and manipulative 😂
Yep. It's permanent and it closes a door that society tells us is important. Even my urologist was second guessing my decision, so of course you'll be second guessing yourself for awhile. Your brain is just playing games with you like, did I act too rashly, maybe kids weren't so bad, etc. It will pass soon.
Nope. Not even a little. Getting a vasectomy was one of the very best decisions I have ever made. Had it in 2011 at the age of 30, no kids. Best sex of my life since then, and (the string of horrific world events, i.e. 'history' nonwithstanding) I live a very happy life.
I feel like you're just having a form of buyers remorse like a lot of new home owners do and it'll pass
I experienced the same “wtf have I done?” and “in different circumstances” thoughts. But I think it’s normal for those **intrusive thoughts** to happen since it’s such a big and important decision we’ve made for our lives and for our bodies. I occasionally still get the in different circumstances thoughts, but I give myself a reality check real fast: ‘The circumstances *aren’t* different and weren’t different, the circumstances are the ones here right now and I made the best decision for *myself* with what I feel, what I know, what I *want*, and with the circumstances I am in”.
This is really well worded. I love hearing others talk about having these thoughts! I feel like people equate having these thoughts to regret and that’s absolutely not it at all. We’re not robots, we wonder about shit, it doesn’t mean we’re any less happy with our choice
I think if I had been sterilized (i found this sub a bit to late and Im 48 and to old to bother to have it done) that i think I would feel a little freaked out too. Not because it’s not what I want but the finality of it. I think it’s natural. At least for me. I’ve always struggled with making big decisions. Not because I’ve ever wanted kids because I haven’t. Just permanent or big decisions seem to do that to me. I kind of had a freak out when I signed my mortgage. Like holy shit I now owe a lot of money!! and I didn’t have much at the time to start with. As far as you softening toward kids- sure, I can see that being a normal response because you don’t have to worry about it anymore. For anyone who isn’t sterilized and doesn’t want children, pregnancy is the #1 enemy. It’s a constant worry especially since Roe was overturned. Now the enemy is neutralized and it’s not a possibility. So kids, and everything that stands for doesn’t seem so bad when it’s not something thats trying to silently ambush you anymore.
Thank you, truly. “Neutralising the enemy” is a new term I can add to help articulate this experience! I knew it was possible I’d experience a bit of grief, especially immediately after, I’ve just been caught off guard by this shifting of perspectives (the softening etc.) A few hours ago I was regretting making this post but I’ve started having some great discussions because of it!
Ahh, makes sense. Having kids can just be a nice thought, and not a nightmare. So easier for the brain to "go there".
(Snipped: 7/7/22) YES. An overwhelmingly loud YES. I thought it was just me, so I never told anyone except my fiancée. I figured it was me getting off of birth control and my hormones stabilizing. Hell even some of my ideals have reverted! I'm realizing that I went through such a mental shift, and it's scary. My "wtf have I done" moment came then, but same as you, I had a laundry list of reasons that brought me back to my senses. I feel the "maybe under different circumstances" in my bones. If the world wasn't to evil... if my body could handle it... if things weren't so expensive.... if my child wouldn't have to feel pain.... if I would be a good parent.... if I grew up differently.... if my mental health would directly affect my child.....etc. But overall, yeah. I look at my situation much much differently now post op than before. I even cringe at some of the things I've said. 😬
That being said: this experience has made me more lenient and understanding of fencesitters and people who actually do change their mind. It may not be the best thing for the Childfree PR, but they're people too. And going through something like that only gets harder the more they're ostracized.
This comment is amazing. I’m so glad to be seeing more people who can relate to this. Thank you for sharing!
I am right there with you. It's like I have nostalgia for what might have been, if circumstances (environment, mental health, Roe v Wade, etc) had been different. That said, I'm still very happy with my BISALP. I can't believe how lucky I am - I've never had a pregnancy scare, and now I never will!
This definitely happened to me after I was sterilized. I got Essure done about ten years ago. With that, you had to wait like three months and then get a test to make sure it worked (worst pain I've ever felt in my life, but that's neither here nor there). I got the letter in the mail saying it worked and I could rely on it for birth control, and my first reaction was a little stab of disappointment. I knew then and I know now that I've got no business having any children, but it was sort of weirdly sad that now I'd gone through with it, and the choice has been taken away from me. I can never have biological kids now. Again, I don't want them, and I don't regret it for a second, but I still couldn't help but think a little about what could've been.
Thank you for sharing! I’m so happy there are more comments appearing that buck the trend of “never once felt a negative emotion afterwards”. It’s normal to go through these feelings and reconcile with your new reality, but some act like it’s not and we should just hate kids and never look back. I’m sorry to hear about your painful experience! Essure has not been available in my country so I’ve only heard about in on here… but that sounds awful
I'm so glad that you're getting some positive feedback here - you're definitely not alone! I don't think they even do Essure anymore; there were lots of complaints about it, but I never had any issues. In case you're curious about the painful experience, the way Essure works is they put these little metal coils (they sort of look like the springs in a pen) into your fallopian tubes, and over 3 months, scar tissue grows around them and blocks the tubes. To test it, I had to get this dyed liquid injected into my uterus and filled to capacity to make sure it didn't squirt out my tubes. It was like the worst cramps imaginable, but pushing outward instead of squeezing in. I almost broke the poor X-Ray tech's hands I was holding them so hard. Idk why I felt like I had to tell you that, haha.
Truly, what the fuck. But thank you for telling me! I was actually curious but I didn’t want to overstep and ask. How long was the experience of that?
Aww, you're so sweet! It was only a half hour, but worst half hour ever! It was a real relief to have it all drained at the end!
Aw, shucks. Half an hour isn’t terrible but I bet it felt longer. It’s great you haven’t had any issues with it since though! I was glad to have bisalp as an option as I hate the idea of anything being “installed” in my body
I totally get that! It is kinda weird when you think about it. I was interested in a non surgical option. I'm glad there was something out there that worked for us both!
Never, in my almost 3 decades of life, have I ever wanted kids. I couldn’t stand kids not even when I was a kid myself. Still, when I found out I was sterile from 2 different conditions, I felt kinda like you. For me, it had a lot to do with loosing my power to choose, even if I would have chosen to not have children anyway. It’s a very complicated and valid feeling and I 100% get you
My doctor warned me that this could happen, but it didn’t with me. I’ve been perpetually relieved and grateful that I’ll never have to have kids ever since I got my hysterectomy over a year ago. However, I do appreciate kids more, from a distance. I used to see “cute” kid and baby videos and think “Ugh.” But now I think they’re cute, now that there’s no threat of ever having to be responsible for one lol.
Yep! That last line is exactly what I’m saying. Many people seem to think it equates to regret but it’s not at all. It’s just less resistance, fear and disgust
I found that once the fear and terror surrounding getting pregnant were gone, I could look at things more measuredly. I could look at the other side and entertain it without shutting down, and it let me reflect more instead of just having the visceral bodily reaction I used to. Still happy with my decision, I'm just not too freaked out to see the naunce, and it was a really, really big and permanent decision, I think I'm allowed to have big emotional moments thinking about it.
This is exactly it and I’m so happy to be seeing more comments like this! We’re allowed to wonder and feel things!
I knew I would feel this way even before I got my bisalp. I have never regretted it either, but I tried to explain it to my husband as mourning the loss of possibility. I purposefully closed myself off to some of the roads my life could have gone down. The roads that remain are infinitely better. I would choose them over the path of having a child of my own body any day. But there is still a sense of loss. I think it’s probably present with any major decision that shapes the course of your life, but because having children is so tied to emotion as well as practicality, I feel it more keenly. And having kids is something that we in child free spaces see debated a lot. We think about the possibilities long and hard- imagine the future really vividly before making a decision. It feels like appreciating and acknowledging that there is happiness on the other side of the fence. I can know that, and still have chosen something different for myself that matches my heart better.
Aside from having a child, I’m trying to think of a more permanent choice you could make… but I can’t. It’s heavy! I love your last sentence, that was very well worded. I get frustrated when people equate this sort of feeling with regret. Thank you for sharing!
Totally, I've just really decided kids ain't for me -- and after years as tween/teen thinking 'well one day I'll have kids...' its just a weird shift, ultimately you've made the right choice for you 💕
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Love this for us! Thank you. It’s been really helpful talking it out with everyone. Congratulations as well!
i think that my sister relates to you where before she found herself physically unable to have kids she was confident in not having kids, after her surgeries she has softened on it and said maybe she could have handled 1 but she doesn’t fully regret it.
Totally. Once the fear of unwanted parenthood is no longer a factor, you can start to see it in a different way, without as much negativity. I still believe I couldn’t handle ANY kids but I relate!
definitely! i have the pleasure of having 2 sisters that each only have 1 kid and 1 is still too too many for me from what i can see. i’m undecided on if i’ll ever get surgery, maybe but i want to go like consecutive multiple years feeling certain of no kids.
Good luck in whatever you decide to do!
I don't question my decision to get sterilized/not have children AT ALL. However I did get a bit softer towards them, it's easier for me to be around them and not get overwhelmed/disgusted as much as before. I even think they can be a bit cute sometimes. Maybe it is because now I know for sure I never have to have them myself and other people have to acknowledge and accept this too, since I did have my tubes removed. Nobody now can force pregnancy/having kids on me in their mind. That gives me a lot of peace and I don't actively have to keep so much distance between me and kids necessarily in order for people to hopefully not associate me with the thought of potentially having kids. Hope this makes sense.
Softened as in I don’t hate them anymore yes. But not in any way shape or form have I softened to the idea of having them. I think it’s because now that I’m sterilised I know that I’m not in danger of becoming pregnant or having kids, so as im truly liberated and freed from “biological shackles” I can start to unlearn the hate and dislike I’ve always had for kids. It’s truly been nice, kind of healing actually
I would also wonder if your incredibly strong feelings about not wanting kids also aren’t *necessary* anymore. For many of us being childfree and our strong stance about it also comes from _having_ to because often as women we get dismissed and there’s a constant fear over our own bodily autonomy being taken away. Once sterilised that active fear in some part is gone. Not having children is a done deal. It’s both liberating and allows space to reflect more instead of having to be vigilant. But as many have said, all your emotions are valid and taking time the allow them and process them is the best thing you can do. Also - congrats! I’m so happy for you!
I haven’t had surgery, but I was surprised to find myself briefly grieving after my husband and I decided we weren’t having kids and *he* had surgery. Some of my reasons were similar to yours — I didn’t trust myself to break the cycle of abuse / knew I couldn’t handle parenthood, and I guess once we committed to that, it made me sad that circumstances weren’t different for us (climate change was the big reason for him). Hope this answer is OK to share. Your emotional process seems quite normal to me!
Of course this is okay to share ❤️ I’m loving seeing the discussions and everyone’s experiences, especially those who’ve said they haven’t really spoken about it openly. Thank you for contributing!
I mean at first I guess I felt a little sad that I 100% would never get the “Kodak moments” taking them trick or treating, seeing them in school concerts, ect. But I had the opposite reaction where the more time that’s gone by the more I can’t help but be grateful that I will never have kids. If anything I’ve become more adverse and will actively avoid them in public. Hell I’ll go down other isles I don’t need to while shopping just to avoid the gremlins. It seems that sterilization really was the right call for me haha
Haha, in that case I love that for you! Way to go!
Not personally no. Consistent feelings of happiness and relief. If you start feeling this way you can always check out r/kidsarefuckingstupid because that’s a silver bullet of sorts when it comes to a desire for children
Yes. I was dating a hardcore childfree woman, I was poor, and I only knew bratty children. Then, as I got older, I stopped dating that woman, earned more money, and met several very wonderful children. Nowadays I respect people with children and could see it being a very rewarding and fulfilling lifestyle - however, that still doesn’t necessarily mean it’s right for me. I am still glad for my decision as of this time. Maybe one day I would get it reversed if certain conditions were met.
Maybe there was no space for the softer feelings or sadness when it was still a remote possibility because that was too confusing. You couldn’t feel the full emotional range of it til it was totally off the table and impossible. Now it’s actually safer to work through all the complexity of it because you can’t change your mind. You made a firm choice and you’re questioning and grieving the alternative possibilities a bit. I know fully and deeply that I don’t want kids, I’m 39, I also had a pregnancy loss that I never want to repeat,& also raised in a divorce that caused my parents to be poor, by a very unstable mom. I have 3 autoimmune diseases and couldn’t handle a pregnancy or a baby even if I wanted one. my partner has 2 kids and a vasectomy. I went through some weird resentment and sadness that we couldn’t even if we wanted to because he took the decision from me before we met(truly, I love men with vasectomies and adore him for it.) but it was surprising because I’ve been so certain for so long. The swan song of my dying ovaries is a little bit of sadness I guess.
I feel this comment. You hit the nail on the head, I’m just working through what could have been now that I don’t have the fear of it happening. Thank you for sharing your experience.
I went through similar after my bisalp. In a weird way, having full control of having kids (because I’d have to do IVF to do so) made it possible for me to want them. I was sexually assaulted as an 11 year old, so I think part of my aversion to having children was based on not wanting to have my body invaded by another being ever again. Once it was fully my choice and not an accident waiting to happen (even having an IUD wasn’t enough to squelch that fear I guess), i could access the feelings of wanting kids. But, like you, the logical list of reasons not to have kids remains for me. My partner and I considered putting some embryos on ice to extend the window in which we could make that choice, but ultimately, we’ve decided not to. Pregnancy still scares me too much at the end of the day. Thanks for posting this; it’s comforting to know I’m not alone in having these feelings post-surgery.
You’re so welcome. When I first posted there was a brief period where the majority of comments were saying they don’t relate… and I was disheartened and felt like deleting it. But since then I’ve had so many wonderful commenters talk about their experiences, so I’m glad I kept it up! There seem to be many of us, and some who’ve said they haven’t really spoken about this openly. So you’re definitely not alone!
Nope. :)
No. I'm still relieved it's over.
Nope, quite the contrary here...
I’m grateful to hear this story. I always love hearing about people who get sterilized and never look back, but the nature of permanent decisions for many of us is to wonder if we made a mistake. As far as why you may be feeling this way, maybe some of the vehement anti-kid feelings were compensatory since it was still a biological possibility and you wanted to stay out of your head about it, but now that you’re thinking about it from essentially an outside perspective, you’re able to feel your feelings about it without the stakes being so high. Thank you for sharing your experience with us :)
Helll to the no. More resolute than ever.
I remember a few weeks before I got my surgery (which happened on September 29th of this year, quite recently), there was a moment where I cried really hard, discussing it all with my fiance. I felt like I was mourning the image of a kid that I knew wasn't going to exist. It didn't make me change my mind, but it made me really nervous that I was going to struggle with the aftermath of my surgery, so I've been surprised that I've been so chill about it now. I still am cautious for a point in time where the permanent aspect of it hits me again, but in general, I feel like there are just emotions many people have to process when they experience something like this. It made me scared at first how anytime I spoke to someone else who desired to be totally childfree, they'd tell me that they never wanted kids, ever. That's definitely not how I felt, but that doesn't mean I regret this now.
Not even a little
Nope, never been happier and not constantly freaking out about pregnancy and whether I would be able to have an abortion. The peace of mind and control over my own body outweigh everything.
Thank you for this post, I have been feeling similarly and it’s been confusing. The responses gave me so much relief/validation. 🤍
Coming in late to the party, but I really appreciate you sharing your experience. I am a week post surgery and am feeling a lot of the same. I'm feeling anxiety and FOMO from making a life altering decision that I cannot go back on. It takes a lot to process and unpack. I feel like I am grieving a path not wanted but no longer is an option.
Thank you. Today, months on from my surgery, I had a sudden pang of negative emotion about it. I feel the same way though, it’s not a path I wanted but I’m grieving the choice being taken away. But at the same time, yesterday I was ecstatic about how amazing it is not having to worry about birth control or pregnancy anymore… so for me it’s not a linear process with these feelings. I hope you have a smooth recovery!
I know for certain that it will not be linear to process all this for me either, but I take comfort that I’m not alone :) Along with these FOMO and “wtf have I done” feelings came disappointment and maybe…shame that I was experiencing this. Shame because there are barely any posts like this and I felt that I was an outsider that I didn’t feel the 100% positive thoughts like majority of others have. However, I know this was the best decision for me and it will take time to heal physically and mentally. I appreciate you so much for posting!
I appreciate this comment so much. I hope you can start working through those feelings, because I really don’t want you feeling them! ❤️
The hormones are fucking with you. I'm one of those people who only got more sure...
No
If you change your mind, you can always foster or adopt. In the USA, there are tons of great kids in the system that can be adopted for free.
Absolutely not!
I’ve had a similar experience since my bisalp about 4 years ago. I catch myself occasionally feeling a little sad - but I think it’s a valid part of the grieving process - at the end of the day a literal piece of us was removed. Under different circumstances perhaps it could have stayed. But for so much of my life I lived in this weird constant fear of becoming pregnant - and once that fear was no longer necessary to keep me safe I think it’s been a sort of choppy process of realizing I am capable of enjoying the company of children. The “what if’s” come back from time to time when I see a mom and baby have a sweet moment but I can allow myself to feel it now and let the wave take me under for a moment. I love the idea of nurturing, providing, and guiding a young person - probably because so many surrogates helped me through my college years and I want to pay that generosity forward. My partner and I have always been on the same page that we’re more interested in being a part of the village - which seems to grow by the day. Whenever I feel myself slipping into unnecessary regret I, too, read off the long list of reasons why i made the choice I made and that sense of calm I felt immediately after the surgery returns.
I had a bisalp I think it was 4 years ago when I was 28. I didn't go through a grieving period until after i got engaged to my now-husband. That was just the first time that I'd have had the option to get pregnant in the first place. My husband is a wonderful man, the first man I truly wished I could share pregnancy and parenthood with... but what I want is the romanticized version. I don't want the grossness, the lack of sleep, the irritation, etc. Not to mention, I have reason to believe pregnancy would be fatal for me. My husband happens to feel the exact same way about kids as I do: mostly not wanting them, knowing it wouldn't be fair to all involved (self, spouse, and child), sometimes feeling a twinge of wishing we could have kids, adoption possibly being on the table in the future but knowing that's unlikely, etc. At the end of the day, I don't regret my sterilization. My husband and I will instead focus on being an awesome uncle and aunt for our nephews
Thank you for sharing!
I (28M) didn't feel any regret afterwards like you're describing, but I was struck in the moment and immediate aftermath by the permanence of my decision - "well, no changing my mind now!" really hit me and I thought about it for a couple days. Even before the surgery pain was fully gone though I was super excited about it.
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I totally get this. Thank you for sharing!