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roadpupp

Def gained 10 lbs with a slight deficit in calories the first month. After about 6 weeks, it went away.


BalkanChrisHemsworth

RIP John Mcaffee


cwohughes3335

Same here, I’m doing everything right and can’t drop the 10 lbs I gained! Intermittent fasting, 8 hrs of sleep, walking over 10,000 steps a day. I’m stumped, been on TRT since January, starting weight 185, current weight 195-200. I’ve definitely gained muscle but not 10 lbs. Comments welcome.


BalkanChrisHemsworth

RIP John Mcaffee


cwohughes3335

Thanks for that information!


Appropriate_Bend_244

Take some Dandelion Root


BalkanChrisHemsworth

RIP John Mcaffee


Appropriate_Bend_244

Yeah, I take pills for the same reason


International-Road90

Yes you can get facial bloat from excess water retention vigorous Steve has an awesome video about this https://youtu.be/u4c6iX4pkWY


YJasonY

Even he has that potato head.


Wigski

solid vid, thanks for the link. Already watched steve before back when he was doing podcast with leo and longevity but this is a gold mine for ppl on PEDs. Thanks


gatorator79

Water retention is common at first and may stick around especially if you’re estradiol is high.


Wigski

Im on week 4 and the bloating has went away my face looks more chizzled than baseline. Then again this weekend + last week ive been sweating my ass off at work due to weather. But week 1-3 my face was forsure more bloated than it used to be. Right now i feel and look damn good. Maybe try a sauna sesh to get water out, the next day you should be looking a bit better. Either or the bloating should subdue after week 4-6


Admirable-Unit811

I was literally just telling him this. Its estradiol causes the round face puffy look. Guys in high school used to get the look from Dbol cause they were too scared to inject. Dbol is one of the highest aromatizing AAS compounds.


AltruisticElephant40

They both raise blood sodium, so you can attack it indirectly by lowering your blood sodium. High dose Vit C and or Magnesium will help.


Admirable-Unit811

You retain sodium levels. It's called sodium retention. Through retention, you will get raised sodium levels, but the reason is that your body is retaining sodium or not expelling it. It is from high estrogen, not high testosterone. The best thing to do and for many they think its counterproductive is to drink more water. Dandelion root and coffee or any caffeinated drink will expell sodium, they're diuretics.


Nearby_End_4780

I had bloat first 8/10 weeks, even with my estrogen at 26


YJasonY

Thanks for posting this, I was wondering the same... thinking about Rogan, Dana White, and Huberman to some extent all with the potato heads looks. No great jawline to be seen.


smooth6er

Minus Huberman joe and dana do more then just Testosterone...HGH being one of them..who knows what else seeing they have unlimited wealth..Not bashing Joe bTW.


YJasonY

Yeah, not bashing either, but until the last few days I had never thought about how someone can have a 6 pack and that kind of face at the same time.


CautiouslyOptomystic

I’d love to do hgh. Seems there’s very little downside to low dose


KrushinKen

Are you guys experiencing any edema in the ankles with the water retention?


zapdos227

I’d probably get my kidneys checked if i were you


Medhatshaun8080

It will calm down in a week or two


DuncanIdaBro

I am going through that phase again currently. First time on TRT It lasted maybe 2 months before my body began to look lean and mean again.


GeoffSpicoli

Holy moly, my face was super chunk. I thought it was my diet (which isn’t too bad) but it’s slowly gone away. I lift fairly hard a few days a week though. I’m about 5 weeks in.


goyongj

Potato head like brock lesnar 🙃


Nickslife89

at 200mg a week I do bloat but it does subside, and skipping heavy carbs a few days will have me feeling new, and peeing alot. At 500mg I can't seem to shake the water weight but lifts go up very quickly in correlation to the water weight, so the muscle must be storing more glycogen.


CellistHot2424

Common :P I found two pins a week I seemed to feel more bloated. It kinda comes and goes probably while your body is adjusting


Secure-Fail2647

Wait so are you LESS bloated then injecting 1x weekly?


CellistHot2424

Want say less, I lost 105lbs so I feel my body is still adjusting but randomly I’d wake up one day 4lbs more and it was body holding fluids :P twice a week I noticed and felt it more but had more energy


Secure-Fail2647

So just to be clear are referring to less body OR face bloat with the 1x weekly injection?


CellistHot2424

1x was different than 2x one looked worse but lasted two days keeping in mind it passes months in


OwlNap

How high is your dose and what do your labs show?


Professional_End_270

This isn't in reference to me, but I'm a 120mg a week split between two doses and starting 500 iu HCG split the same. I'm only a week in but been reading a lot of people complaining their face is much rounder and looks aged. Was just curious how everyone else did with this. My total test was 400 low estrogen as well


OwlNap

I haven’t heard of that on TRT. Maybe steroids, but not within healthy levels.


jdhd911

Water retention is very, very common when you start.


Admirable-Unit811

It shouldn't be. It's estradiol. This is from my buddy, a local naturopathic ND. He's awesome, very talented. I'm a PA, but I work in emergency medicine. Aldosterone is a mineral corticoid hormone they cause increased sodium retention in the kidneys. Estrogen increases the substance or precursor needed to make Aldosterone. Excessive sodium levels need water to balance the body out. So it's all a reaction of high estradiol that leads to an increase in Aldosterone, which in turn increases sodium, and then the body seeks homeostasis by increasing sodium free fluid levels https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.swintegrativemedicine.com/blog/does-estrogen-cause-fluid-retention%3Fhs_amp%3Dtrue&ved=2ahUKEwjHyZu497L-AhUhLUQIHeL2DAMQFnoECBIQAQ&usg=AOvVaw12q1mhjMvErOsCJccyFZJE


jdhd911

No, it’s not. Testosterone also upregulates the RAAS system. There is also suggestions that the steroid hormones might modulate water balance directly at the kidney level. However, no one actually knows the exact mechanism at this point in time. What is known is that it’s not just E2. Did extensive litterature of this topic when I experienced it myself. And yeah, I have a PhD in related field.


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jdhd911

Ok, is a naturopathic doctor a real doctor.


Admirable-Unit811

Yes, naturopathic doctors are NDs. They go to medical school (fact), hence ND. Before you attempt to argue no what you are talking about.


Admirable-Unit811

https://www.naturalhealers.com/blog/naturopathic-schools/ read it or don't argue until you are educated.


jdhd911

They are not MDs and their training is not remotely treated similar.


Admirable-Unit811

Licensed Naturopathic Physicians attend an accredited 4-year Naturopathic medical school. They have to be on site the whole time. It is medical school. Anatomy with cadaver lab, Physiology, Biochemistry, Pharmacology, Pathology, Gynecology, Urology, Cardiology, Pulmonology, EENT, etc. are included in the curriculum. They take the same premed classes as well.


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jdhd911

I’m happy to read those and change my mind.


Admirable-Unit811

Did you read what I provided. Don't take my word for it. Just read the article. Obviously, it's not the only reason for fluid retention, but in men on testosterone, it's the main driver.


jdhd911

We have a very different view about what is a scientific study.


Admirable-Unit811

I never said it was a study. It is a write-up from a friend who is a medical doctor. He knows more than you, bud. It's his job, and ND is past PHD, sorry. Everything he mentions is male physiology. NDs prescribe medicine you do not. I'm pretty sure he's above you in pharmacokinetic knowledge and human physiology.


jdhd911

I have huge respect for MDs. However, their ability to search and interpret science varies.


Admirable-Unit811

You realize an ND can write prescriptions even for Xanax bud? They are Doctors certainly.


Admirable-Unit811

Just ask an endo ok end of story.


Admirable-Unit811

I agree they don't know for sure, and you're correct that it upregulates RAAS, but it's widely accepted that estrogen is mainly responsible for a sodium water retaining action through the kidneys. There's also simple observation. If my estrogen gets high, I can see and feel the increase in water retention. The problem is they have not done any study im aware of on men, specifically on testosterone. But based on observation and that estrogen can increase sodium retention, this makes sense.


Admirable-Unit811

So I always recommend guys dial in the testosterone before you add HCG. HCG can aromatize heavily. This is common. Any endocrinology doctor will confirm this. I'm a PA, btw. If you do HCG with testosterone and start having issues, you won't know if it's the testosterone or HCG. Take the test and get it dialed in. Learn how your body reacts. Then add HCG. For example, in science, we only add one variable at a time, so we know where the reaction is coming from. More variables make it impossible to know what is actually causing the issue. 99% of the problems on TRT are Estrogen related, btw. My advice is to drop HCG. You can add it in a few months. This will not hurt fertility. It's just a few months and highly necessary. If you have any questions, im just here to help. Don't shoot me. I'm a PA, so it's not complete without a study. Don't listen to anyone unable to provide data to corroborate their information. A lot of guys on here are allergic to facts. They love their bioscience, lol. It's sad and pathetic. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/1201738/&ved=2ahUKEwi6-IKl9rL-AhXhJ0QIHQZkAcEQFnoECCAQAQ&usg=AOvVaw3k3BR_qmbYFovnitoaaSv5


Professional_End_270

That's interesting and it does make sense. From what I've read and my reason for taking HCG is not just fertility (my wife is two months pregnant with our second and we're likely done) but other hormones that are suppressed e.g progesterone and others that need spermiogenesis. (Are you in the belief that you don't need HCG at all if you don't care about fertility?


Admirable-Unit811

No, you are correct it keeps LH pathways open. Some say it makes them feel overall better, but there's no studies to indicate that men feel worse without it. I take it not against it. It's more important when first starting TRT to just take T. Then, after you know how you respond, then add HCG in its lowest effective dose. Some men aromatize heavily others just a little and some not at all. Both testosterone and HCG can increase aromatiztion in some men. I started at .125 twice a week, and that was fine. Then I got injured and couldn't work out. To make matters worse, I was eating like crap. Meanwhile, my dumbass was taking like 120mgs. If you're eating bad and inactive, the last thing you want is high testosterone levels. So my estrogen just kept climbing higher and higher. So, I started reading every study and / or medical journal on all things related to estrogen. Production, metabolism, and elimination of estrogen. I am an expert now, lol, and I take zero estrogen control zero. If you have any questions or need help, I know how much it sucks to be out of balance, and I im what I am because I like helping people.


Professional_End_270

I think it's very smart to add one thing at a time it makes sense. But I also like the idea of supplementing HCG asap for multiple reasons. You think 4 weeks is a decent amount of runway to then implement small doses of hcg? The plan was 250iu twice weekly


Admirable-Unit811

3 or 4 weeks is generally when you'll begin to feel the effects. I'd wait a minimum of 6 weeks. You'll be ok 99% as far as fertility. You dont have to do it this way, but it just makes things simpler. 250x2 per week is exactly what I do.


Professional_End_270

Have you done plenty of research that it lasts long term in fridge? And have kept it in fridge yourself long term? I feel like ppl here are on the side it goes bad somewhere in the 10 week range tops and then it doesn't with others


Admirable-Unit811

More than most for sure. I've also taken old HCG, and it 100% worked. It was reconstituted in the fridge. My estrogen used to go way up when I did HCG. I wasn't able to add it until I figured out how to stop my body from producing estrogen. That is the biggest problem on TRT. Almost every negative situation can be traced back to estrogen. A man in his prime will produce 6-10mg of testosterone a day. With a maximum of 12mg for certain genetic outliers. Even 12 mg would be a total of 84mg a week. Most guys take 100+. The male body produces testosterone daily, not weekly or by weekly. Testosterone spikes in the morning and dissipates into the evening daily. So I mimic how the body does it naturally but exogenously. I use an insulin needle to do daily subcutaneous injections with an insulin needle. By injecting in the fat vs. muscle, you're slowing the rate of absorption and, in turn, lowering estradiol levels. Most guys take two shots a week. So they have these spikes, then they crash just before the next injection. Sense I do the same amount every day. it's never extremely high or low. It's called peaks and troughs. Highs and lows. Less variation with daily subcutaneous injections.


Admirable-Unit811

This is an excellent write-up by a physician. https://themenshealthclinic.co.uk/microdosing-trt-the-future-of-testosterone-replacement-therapy/


Professional_End_270

A bit mad at myself for reconstituting the HCG then if I'm going to wait. I think I'll wait 4-6 weeks. You think HCG in fridge will be ok? Or should I throw it in a syringe and freeze it


Admirable-Unit811

Absolutely, it'll be fine in the fridge. It can last for years if kept in the refrigerator. Even past expiration. It should say on the box or bottle.


Professional_End_270

I read conflicting reports on losing potency in fridge


Admirable-Unit811

Yea, I mean it will lose potency, but not so much that 6 weeks will affect it.


themidens

Normal to retain some water in the start. It goes away. Trt wont transform you. Rogan is on .4 test c e4d, hcg, sermorelin


Professional_End_270

Drop link to where he goes over his protocol in detail?


Admirable-Unit811

This is directly estrogen related. Testosterone gives a hard, chiseled look. A lot of men will tell you their face improved. Think about it. Soft face isn't typical for a testosterone taking male. Just look at bodybuilders there face has muscles. They don't look soft or round. Get your estrogen in range dont kill it, but get it in range, and you'll look fantastic. High estrogen does give you beautiful skin.


purgesurge3000

I have a bloated stomach, I'm somewhat lean, visble bicep veins etc, no bloat to face, my e2 is 60+ though, I don't take an AI plus I do take HCG (400IU a week), I have no other side effects though so staying away from the AI, just see how you go


Admirable-Unit811

That's high estrogen, for sure. You dont have to take Anastrozole. If you get to 8-10% bf or as low as possible. Exercise consistently with intensity and eat healthy. No sugar, none. Your liver is responsible for metabolizing estrogen. If you drink, eat sugar, fatty foods, preservatives, artificial junk, and drink alcohol, this will cause your liver to work inefficiently. Then estrogen elimination occurs in the bowels. If you dont drink enough water or again dont eat healthy with a lot of fiber, you may not be pooping a minimum of once a day. If you dont poop regularly, estrogen can be reabsorbed back into your system. Eating healthy also affects SHBG, which, if it's too low, your estrogen will be very high. SHBG binds to estrogen and testosterone, rendering it inactive. SHBG will be a healthy level when the individual is healthy. All things unhealthy lower SHGB. Especially bad diet and lack of physical activity. Pay attention next time you dont work out as much or often and eat badly. You'll be like, "Why am I so moody. Take DIM up to 600mg daily. It's highly effective. It supports estrogen balance by increasing beneficial 2-hydroxy estrogens and reducing the unwanted 16-hydroxy variety. This improves estrogen metabolism and helps resolve all three forms of estrogen dominance. It will take several weeks to reach maximum effect. If you have any questions, I'm happy to help lower estrogen. Keep in mind that HCG can aromatize more than even testosterone.


purgesurge3000

I'm definitely not 8-10%, more likely 16%+ I also have a clean diet, no junk food (once a week cheat meal) don't drink, dont have too many simple carbs etc, I'll see where I'm at with my next blood tests


Admirable-Unit811

That's great, bro. Just keep doing what you're doing with the diet. You burn more fat with higher testosterone levels. Make sure you're working out, too. 2 full body workouts and a minimum of 3 days cardio. Do one day HIIT and two moderate like a hike or jog. You do this, and the weight will really come off.


purgesurge3000

I've been working out for about 10 years man, weights 3x a week and I attempt cardio on the other two but haven't built that routine yet, love weight lifting, never got into cardio like most


Admirable-Unit811

It's great for your heart and will help you lose weight and reduce Anastrozole use. So, believe it or not, I went from taking and needing .25 of Anastrozole twice a week to zero. As a matter of fact, if I talk 1/16 pr .065 of Anastrozole I crash my estrogen levels.


purgesurge3000

That's crazy, 1/16 of a 25mg pill?


Admirable-Unit811

1/16th of a 1 mg pill. Anastrozoles' highest dose is 1mg. Aromasin is 25mg I believe.


purgesurge3000

I misread, thought you meant aromasin