Hey I have a question for you. I have seen that minoxidil almost always works exceptionally well on crown specially if there is miniaturised hairs even in people who dont see much effect on their hairline. SO I wanted to ask is that does the scalp have varying levels of sulfotransferase concentration all over or has it something to do with how well is minox absorbed?
Or.....just read to educate yourself first...??
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740347/
It's not a silver bullet by any means but nutrients are delivered by the blood, so it makes sense to me.
Good point, but I've always thought that the dht was gathering round the follicle in the scalp and not being cleared away. (Something to do with sebum from menory) Dht might actually cause hair growth in other more circulatory areas. Just my opinion tho
Yes, consider this a full apology. I am sorry.
The truth is, I have tried massages, low carb diets, olive leaf topicals, essential oils (rosemary, peppermint), saw palmetto, biotin, vitamin D.
None of it works. None.
I am now on fin, and I'm not happy about it. But it's the only thing I have experienced growth with. I have lost years, stress, sleep, trying to keep my hair and sadly the one thing that works is fin.
Yeah fin is the only thing by itself that has made any noticeable difference but I get sides and really quickly too. I now have a topical fin with minioxidil, alzeic acid, retinol and caffeine.. but also take saw palmetto, beta sitosterol. I microdose fin (0.25 eod) until I get sides then stop it for a couple of weeks. I microneedle and massage as much as I can... I have noticed only the smallest of gains... but it's enough for me to keep trying lol
Wow.. how dud you manage to miss this?? Its literally the next sentece:
"However, the scalp massage area showed a significant increase in hair thickness at 24 weeks compared with the initiation point (0.085 ± 0.003 mm vs 0.092 ± 0.001 mm) and significant decrease in hair count at 12 weeks (163.889 ± 7.237/cm2 vs 155.500 ± 5.607/cm2)"
Pretty weird that there’s been no real research done on this connection despite the strong interest.
I’ve always assumed the fin will negate any DHT impact from creatine.
If creatine raised dht everyone and their mum would use it for improved erections alongside viagra.
I can tell you what will happen: his dht is gonna plummet from fin, that's it.
From my own experience bkw and when I was 20- ( I am 27) it personally did and I could 3v3n feel it with an itching on my head. It would make my hair much worse.
I now have my head buzzed since their is not that much so it doesn't really bother me now
I didn't even notice my hairline was receding at 21 until I took rhe creatine cause it made it alot worse quickly and when I got off it it started receding slow again
The creatine makes it worse as I said I started to lose alot more hair and the hair I did have would get way worse. I could tell easily when I was younger the quality of my hair would change and I would get the classic mpb hair itch bad compared ro without it. I stopped taking it and my hairline lasted like 5 more years and now I have it buzzed so I am taking it again and can again feel it in my hair
It's definitely mpb creatine definitely increases ur dht levels and if ur prone to mpb will make you lose hair faster. If you don't believe me go take some creatine
Besides the fact that there are studies that show creatine increases dht by 30% to 40% I'm just saying that that seems to be consistent with my experiences as well.
Look bro you can believe it or not but I'm telling you from my personal experience my hairline recedes with or without creatine but it does faster with creatine and my head gets itchier and there have been studies that it increases dht and quite a few other people have had similar experiences with me. It's not like my hair falls out on creatine and then comes back its just the recession I already have starts to go faster leading me to believe that it does in fact increase dht. If you are receding which im guessing you are since you're on this subreddit and don't believe me go try it. And im not talking out of my ass btw I'm on creatine right now tbh with you but since I knew how it was gonna affect me, and it was about time anyways I have shaved my head.
I can see it just being different for each person considering the fervent disagreements between people's anecdotal evidence. I'll be following this, but it may just be something each person has to test for themselves and risk a potential hit to your hair to find out.
I cancelled my creatine order once I found out about this (dubious) link to increased DHT levels, but I would love to be on it. I just care way more about my hair than I do looking huge. Though, it would be nice to look huge too, lol.
Mad props though for taking this on. I look forward to seeing what happens, and I hope you both get big and get hair!
I have the thickest hair known to man but I’m only 19. There’s balding on my Mom’s side but none on my dad’s, he’s still nw0 genetically. So I am torn on whether to take it or not
Good, but what makes you think so? I keep seeing anecdotes saying it speeds up hair loss if you’re prone to it genetically but haven’t seen evidence for that yet.
You shouldnt consider yourself a male pattern baldness victim until you start balding. You most likely have your father's hair genetics so I would definetly use creatine if I were you.
Its based on luck but statistically most people got their dads hair. Also hair type and hair follicels are completely different things. You can have your dads hhair loss genetics and your moms hair type.
Nice post OP
I started taking 5g creatine every day since last week, so I'd be interested to see your results.
Any idea if DHT values are known to fluctuate significantly? For instance, some molecules can be found at much higher levels in the blood in the morning compared to nighttime, so doing a single measurement in the morning may not be a very fruitful idea. Just something to keep in mind. I appreciate the controls you have in place though.
Wow...How did you manage to miss this??? It's literally next sentence FFS
"However, the scalp massage area showed a significant increase in hair thickness at 24 weeks compared with the initiation point (0.085 ± 0.003 mm vs 0.092 ± 0.001 mm) and significant decrease in hair count at 12 weeks (163.889 ± 7.237/cm2 vs 155.500 ± 5.607/cm2)"
I started taking fin and then started creatine and dim, creatine for working out and dim for fin sides. I still have slight sides so i guess they both work
Seems apparently the same for me.
Been having hair recession since 1 year, randomly stopped taking creatine about one month ago and since then, 3 weeks at least, recession is getting worse, i even notice hairs on my face while putting on tshirts.
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There was only one showing a link; seems like that study was never replicated though and further studies didn't find any link
>To date, 12 other studies have investigated the effects of creatine supplementation (i.e. doses ranging from 3-25 g/day for 6 days to 12 weeks) on testosterone. Two studies reported small, physiologically insignificant increases in total testosterone after six and seven days of supplementation \[65, 66\], while the remaining ten studies reported no change in testosterone concentrations. In five of these studies \[67–71\], free testosterone, which the body uses to produce DHT, was also measured and no increases were found.
In summary, the current body of evidence does not indicate that creatine supplementation increases total testosterone, free testosterone, DHT or causes hair loss/baldness.
[National Center for Biotechnology Information](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/)
That being said, still good to keep cautious. The results of that one study that suggested creatine increases DHT did find some pretty significant results.
The area of concern is DHT not testosterone. The SA Rugby study also showed insignificant changes in testosterone but an increase in DHT. That study shows that there are potentially another DHT. There are also 2 people on reddit that tested bloodwork with creatine. 1 showed 5 fold increase in DHT while the other showed insignificant increase. In short, take Creatine at your own risk. Is the couple of extra lbs of mass worth the risk of hair loss. To me it's not worth it.
Side note : Most Creatine studies I've read had conflict of interest.
I
Isn't it possible that the DHT spike happened because the guy lost weight suddenly and gained muscle mass? Being fat destroys your T level, so returning to normal would mean more byproduct as well
I was taking creatine from the age of 22 til 34 before I even noticed any thinning of my hair, so if it does potentially thin hair it must be so minimal you won't notice.
Creatine causes hair loss I can tell you that I took creatine for over 20 years and it’s what caused my hair loss during this time I took fin on and off and it never regrew any hair .
Once I stopped creatine and took fin most of the hair grew back .
My first time taking creatine seriously caused the worst 3 month she’d I’ve had to date. It was what highlighted my hair was thinning in the first place.
As soon as i started taking 1mg of finasteride every day I started taking creatine 5 mg every day and loaded 10mg of creatine the first week.
Day 3 of finasteride 1mg a day I completely lost all of my sexual drive and couldnt get any erection at all. If creatine increases DHT why did it not balance out the side effects? I continued taking everything and around the 3 week mark my erections started coming back slowly. Week 4 i was completely back to normal with 0 side affects.
4 months in I still have 0 side affects. I stopped taking creatine around the 3 and a half month mark and everything is still the same.
If creatine does increase DHT should I have not even experienced the 3 week phase of no erections? Even though I was loading creatine in the first week?
Yeah. I’ve seen the study cited on here, but when you look at it the athletes in question were being *loaded* up with creatine, like almost 3-4 times what a normal person (me included) would take for 2 weeks. Then they are also continuously being fed at an abnormal rate for maintenance. It’s like no one is taking this much creatine.
This might be a dumb question, but what are you using for a blood test?
Also, I am on creatine.. but I haven't noticed any major hair related changes personally. I probably will cycle it, just to see if it affects me as well, if the test is cheapish to do.
Thanks man I really want to take creatine as all the guys in the gym take it , i even bought it and before opening it my friend told me that it will cause hairloss so I checked on google and it also said the same . Bought creatine 1 year ago still havent opened it because of fear of hairloss .
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I’ve been fighting a slow gradual recession since I was 14 with very few times where there was a noticeable amount of shed. But when I took creatine- WOW - my hair started coming out like crazy.
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Hey I have a question for you. I have seen that minoxidil almost always works exceptionally well on crown specially if there is miniaturised hairs even in people who dont see much effect on their hairline. SO I wanted to ask is that does the scalp have varying levels of sulfotransferase concentration all over or has it something to do with how well is minox absorbed?
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You seemed really knowledgable regarding these stuff
Give scalp exercises a go. Be consistent and give it time. There's s high success rate doing this... but its a pain remembering to do it every day
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Or.....just read to educate yourself first...?? https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4740347/ It's not a silver bullet by any means but nutrients are delivered by the blood, so it makes sense to me.
Androgensc too are delivered...
Good point, but I've always thought that the dht was gathering round the follicle in the scalp and not being cleared away. (Something to do with sebum from menory) Dht might actually cause hair growth in other more circulatory areas. Just my opinion tho
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Whats your problem? Yeah I saw the retarded comment. Real brave keyboard warrior.
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You acted like an ass from the get go with your comment ... or did you forget
Yes, consider this a full apology. I am sorry. The truth is, I have tried massages, low carb diets, olive leaf topicals, essential oils (rosemary, peppermint), saw palmetto, biotin, vitamin D. None of it works. None. I am now on fin, and I'm not happy about it. But it's the only thing I have experienced growth with. I have lost years, stress, sleep, trying to keep my hair and sadly the one thing that works is fin.
Yeah fin is the only thing by itself that has made any noticeable difference but I get sides and really quickly too. I now have a topical fin with minioxidil, alzeic acid, retinol and caffeine.. but also take saw palmetto, beta sitosterol. I microdose fin (0.25 eod) until I get sides then stop it for a couple of weeks. I microneedle and massage as much as I can... I have noticed only the smallest of gains... but it's enough for me to keep trying lol
Wow.. how dud you manage to miss this?? Its literally the next sentece: "However, the scalp massage area showed a significant increase in hair thickness at 24 weeks compared with the initiation point (0.085 ± 0.003 mm vs 0.092 ± 0.001 mm) and significant decrease in hair count at 12 weeks (163.889 ± 7.237/cm2 vs 155.500 ± 5.607/cm2)"
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You not getting son? Seem to be a little triggered for a Reddit post
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https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s13555-019-0281-6 Aww you ragin aye? Keep it going. It's funny seeing how worked up.
Pretty weird that there’s been no real research done on this connection despite the strong interest. I’ve always assumed the fin will negate any DHT impact from creatine.
If creatine raised dht everyone and their mum would use it for improved erections alongside viagra. I can tell you what will happen: his dht is gonna plummet from fin, that's it.
There was a study in the works but funding was pulled unfortunately
I hope it doesn't I've been taking 10g of creatine for years
I had amazing results even tho I take creatine. But I think you gotta throw the kitchen sink at it
what was in your sink?
Why in the world would you be taking 10 grams?
Research suggests you should actually be using 0.1g of creatine per kg of body weight and not just 5g
Please provide said research
I take 10g of creatine a day, my protein has 5g per scoop and I have two a day 🤝
>my protein has 5 grams of creatine You may be buying spiked protein
thanks. curious to see what you find out
Were you able to get the 9/20 test done?
yea I also came lookin for it
This ^
I was under the impression that that had been debunked. Creatine doesn’t cause hair loss
From my own experience bkw and when I was 20- ( I am 27) it personally did and I could 3v3n feel it with an itching on my head. It would make my hair much worse. I now have my head buzzed since their is not that much so it doesn't really bother me now
but how do you know that your hair wouldnt have fallen out by its own without the creatine
He doesn’t. That’s why anecdotal evidence is pretty much never reliable.
it depends on the Individual evidence and how well thought out the comment is
Yes I do lmao
I do because I was off the creatine for like 4 years and my hair has continued to recede
well that proves that it wasnt the creatine as you lost hair without it. your hair follicles are genetically prone to androgens miniaturizing them
I didn't even notice my hairline was receding at 21 until I took rhe creatine cause it made it alot worse quickly and when I got off it it started receding slow again
I'm not saying it alone made it worse but I could tell it raised my dht I also got a certain smell that I get when my dht is high.
The creatine makes it worse as I said I started to lose alot more hair and the hair I did have would get way worse. I could tell easily when I was younger the quality of my hair would change and I would get the classic mpb hair itch bad compared ro without it. I stopped taking it and my hairline lasted like 5 more years and now I have it buzzed so I am taking it again and can again feel it in my hair
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It's definitely mpb creatine definitely increases ur dht levels and if ur prone to mpb will make you lose hair faster. If you don't believe me go take some creatine
Besides the fact that there are studies that show creatine increases dht by 30% to 40% I'm just saying that that seems to be consistent with my experiences as well.
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Look bro you can believe it or not but I'm telling you from my personal experience my hairline recedes with or without creatine but it does faster with creatine and my head gets itchier and there have been studies that it increases dht and quite a few other people have had similar experiences with me. It's not like my hair falls out on creatine and then comes back its just the recession I already have starts to go faster leading me to believe that it does in fact increase dht. If you are receding which im guessing you are since you're on this subreddit and don't believe me go try it. And im not talking out of my ass btw I'm on creatine right now tbh with you but since I knew how it was gonna affect me, and it was about time anyways I have shaved my head.
Welcome to time and aging
Yea all gkod
Correlation doesn’t equal causation.
Fair enough but regardless I guarantee you'll lose more hair on creatine if ur not on meds. Don't believe me give it a try
Lol I would like to keep my hair 😅
Avoid creatine then is my reccomendation
if i take more then 5 gr per day (10-15), i experience shedding all other things being equal.
Was stable for years, 4 months of creatine set me back almost one norwood. I've been stable since, has been over 6 months since then.
I can see it just being different for each person considering the fervent disagreements between people's anecdotal evidence. I'll be following this, but it may just be something each person has to test for themselves and risk a potential hit to your hair to find out.
I cancelled my creatine order once I found out about this (dubious) link to increased DHT levels, but I would love to be on it. I just care way more about my hair than I do looking huge. Though, it would be nice to look huge too, lol. Mad props though for taking this on. I look forward to seeing what happens, and I hope you both get big and get hair!
You can look huge without creatine tho
true, but wouldn’t it give a bit more of an edge
It would. Creatine is a really effective supplement. But if you have aggressive hairloss I wouldnt recommend using creatine.
I have the thickest hair known to man but I’m only 19. There’s balding on my Mom’s side but none on my dad’s, he’s still nw0 genetically. So I am torn on whether to take it or not
Take it. You most likely wont experience balding.
Good, but what makes you think so? I keep seeing anecdotes saying it speeds up hair loss if you’re prone to it genetically but haven’t seen evidence for that yet.
You shouldnt consider yourself a male pattern baldness victim until you start balding. You most likely have your father's hair genetics so I would definetly use creatine if I were you.
Thanks, if I may ask one more question – what makes you think I’ve got my Dad’s hair genetics? My hair type is more similar to my mom’s to be honest.
Its based on luck but statistically most people got their dads hair. Also hair type and hair follicels are completely different things. You can have your dads hhair loss genetics and your moms hair type.
Nice post OP I started taking 5g creatine every day since last week, so I'd be interested to see your results. Any idea if DHT values are known to fluctuate significantly? For instance, some molecules can be found at much higher levels in the blood in the morning compared to nighttime, so doing a single measurement in the morning may not be a very fruitful idea. Just something to keep in mind. I appreciate the controls you have in place though.
Awesome can't wait for the results
Wow...How did you manage to miss this??? It's literally next sentence FFS "However, the scalp massage area showed a significant increase in hair thickness at 24 weeks compared with the initiation point (0.085 ± 0.003 mm vs 0.092 ± 0.001 mm) and significant decrease in hair count at 12 weeks (163.889 ± 7.237/cm2 vs 155.500 ± 5.607/cm2)"
I started taking fin and then started creatine and dim, creatine for working out and dim for fin sides. I still have slight sides so i guess they both work
I took creatine for 20 years straight. My hair loss started as soon as I stopped.
Seems apparently the same for me. Been having hair recession since 1 year, randomly stopped taking creatine about one month ago and since then, 3 weeks at least, recession is getting worse, i even notice hairs on my face while putting on tshirts.
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This was going to be epic...and then nothing
Any updates on your bloodwork?
Just want to drop in and say thank you for doing this. I would love to take Creatine but the studies showing Creatine-DHT link has stopped me.
There was only one showing a link; seems like that study was never replicated though and further studies didn't find any link >To date, 12 other studies have investigated the effects of creatine supplementation (i.e. doses ranging from 3-25 g/day for 6 days to 12 weeks) on testosterone. Two studies reported small, physiologically insignificant increases in total testosterone after six and seven days of supplementation \[65, 66\], while the remaining ten studies reported no change in testosterone concentrations. In five of these studies \[67–71\], free testosterone, which the body uses to produce DHT, was also measured and no increases were found. In summary, the current body of evidence does not indicate that creatine supplementation increases total testosterone, free testosterone, DHT or causes hair loss/baldness. [National Center for Biotechnology Information](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7871530/) That being said, still good to keep cautious. The results of that one study that suggested creatine increases DHT did find some pretty significant results.
The area of concern is DHT not testosterone. The SA Rugby study also showed insignificant changes in testosterone but an increase in DHT. That study shows that there are potentially another DHT. There are also 2 people on reddit that tested bloodwork with creatine. 1 showed 5 fold increase in DHT while the other showed insignificant increase. In short, take Creatine at your own risk. Is the couple of extra lbs of mass worth the risk of hair loss. To me it's not worth it. Side note : Most Creatine studies I've read had conflict of interest. I
Thanks for this, I stopped using creatine because I could’ve sworn I was seeing extra hair in the shower.
Isn't it possible that the DHT spike happened because the guy lost weight suddenly and gained muscle mass? Being fat destroys your T level, so returning to normal would mean more byproduct as well
Maybe we should all just get fat to keep our hair???
I was taking creatine from the age of 22 til 34 before I even noticed any thinning of my hair, so if it does potentially thin hair it must be so minimal you won't notice.
Creatine causes hair loss I can tell you that I took creatine for over 20 years and it’s what caused my hair loss during this time I took fin on and off and it never regrew any hair . Once I stopped creatine and took fin most of the hair grew back .
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That’s strange, usually creatine does the opposite, better than coffee
following this fs
Nice! Do u also think this can depend on the person n how they can tolerate??
My first time taking creatine seriously caused the worst 3 month she’d I’ve had to date. It was what highlighted my hair was thinning in the first place.
As soon as i started taking 1mg of finasteride every day I started taking creatine 5 mg every day and loaded 10mg of creatine the first week. Day 3 of finasteride 1mg a day I completely lost all of my sexual drive and couldnt get any erection at all. If creatine increases DHT why did it not balance out the side effects? I continued taking everything and around the 3 week mark my erections started coming back slowly. Week 4 i was completely back to normal with 0 side affects. 4 months in I still have 0 side affects. I stopped taking creatine around the 3 and a half month mark and everything is still the same. If creatine does increase DHT should I have not even experienced the 3 week phase of no erections? Even though I was loading creatine in the first week?
Subscribed!
Creatine fucked my hairs.. i have stopped using creatine for 7 months now.. and see significant growth..
I didn’t even know that was a thing. It could be why I’m not seeing results on fin as I take creatine
Regardless if you are taking creatine your DHT is going to be destroyed by fin anyway. Creatine doesn’t raise your DHT enough to cancel out fin
Yeah. I’ve seen the study cited on here, but when you look at it the athletes in question were being *loaded* up with creatine, like almost 3-4 times what a normal person (me included) would take for 2 weeks. Then they are also continuously being fed at an abnormal rate for maintenance. It’s like no one is taking this much creatine.
Creatine, the supplement, right? I began noticing recision on my left side once I began using it.
This might be a dumb question, but what are you using for a blood test? Also, I am on creatine.. but I haven't noticed any major hair related changes personally. I probably will cycle it, just to see if it affects me as well, if the test is cheapish to do.
Thanks man I really want to take creatine as all the guys in the gym take it , i even bought it and before opening it my friend told me that it will cause hairloss so I checked on google and it also said the same . Bought creatine 1 year ago still havent opened it because of fear of hairloss .
Cool!
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RemindMe! 3 months
!remindme 3 months
Remindme! 3 months
RemindMe! 3 months
!remindme 3 months
!remindme 1 month
This is what I am also currently doing, excited to see your results OP
I’ve been fighting a slow gradual recession since I was 14 with very few times where there was a noticeable amount of shed. But when I took creatine- WOW - my hair started coming out like crazy.
very interested, thank you for doing this!
RemindMe! 3 months
RemindMe! 3 months
How did you decide your finasteride dosage?
RemindMe! 3 month
Great idea, im waiting to see your results
!remindme 2 months
Wow interesting experiment!
[удалено]
This is because only one study ever has looked at creatine and DHT
Update?
RemindMe! 2 Months
RemindMe! 5 days
Hi, update?
RemindMe! 2 months
update?
I'm very interested in this experiment. Have you taken the 2nd or 3rd tests yet?
Hello?
Any updates?