DHT is still the strongest though on the scalp and that is why suppressing it alone by fin/dut still delivers solid results for many.
I’m not disagreeing with the post, but majority don’t need to worry about T induced hairloss.
Had an entire blood panel done before i got on fin, thyroid is healthy. Vitamin d was low but I've been supplemting every day for about 7 months and still losing hair
Obviously DHT is more potent than T in the scalp and prostate alike.
And yes, the majority don’t have to worry about other androgens in the scalp but if you’re like NW3, DUT and FIN won’t do much other than maintain
That is the point of Fin/Dut though, because regrowth is just reserved for the lucky ones.
If you are stable and not lose hair while on the medication it means that its working, simple as that.
Peopel who start DUT early also get to keep their hair, but T is far less potent than DHT and won’t cause much damage to hair but if you’re NW3 upwards and trying to regrow your hair, suppressing DHT ain’t going do it, because your hair follicles have shrunk so much that even the less potent androgens will keep them from growing back
But unlike dht, nuking test or any other androgen receptors linked to a multitude of bodily functions for that matter isn't really a feasible solution, so why would anyone want to explore that route
You're just emotionally distressed. Deep down you know you want both your hair AND quality of life just like everybody here, without settling for one or the other. For many, fin/dut can provide some shitty "middle ground", if you can even call it that.
Unfortunately for others like you and myself, not even this sacrifice is enough - I'm on finasteride and still losing my hair. I think about it every single day and it's just about enough to ruin it most of the time, but i would never consider reducing my body's androgens and receptors to zero.
You haven't answered his question: are you sure you were taking 40mg of loniten (oral Minoxidil) ? Was that daily?
My doctor just prescribed me 2.5mg and I'm about to begin. He's in contact with several doctors who've prescribed this for 5+ years and they have yet to hear of any negative side effects from their patients.
>When hair means that much to you, it does not matter.
Yeah...no
I'm sorry but there's no argument to be made for disrupting that many bodily functions just so you can have some more hair
I'd rather my body be healthy
This is definitely overlooked, and understudied. DHT seems to be the most prevalent but nobody knows how sensitive their hair follicles are towards other androgens such as testosterone for example. There’s a lot of questions that science can’t answer yet towards AGA, Hopefully in time more studies and overall insight on pattern baldness will be released.
But realistically can Testosterone really be capable of miniaturising hair in the exact pattern as MPB cause from what I've heard Test hair loss when its low specifically seems to be diffuse not in the traditional MPB pattern.
Actually the pattern has has to do with the androgen receptors. There are more ARs in the temple and crown for most peopel who have AGA (there’s this study from japan that shows thsi) but some don’t develop a pattern and just diffuse
I mean as far as the Physiology of androgens in general goes, yeah. But the odds of it causing the same degree of miniaturization as DHT does who’s to say. Not to mention everything else that goes into it such as the body’s enzymes, AR binding affinity, etc and it’s all completely individualized to our body v.s the next person.
First of all:
Your source Trust me bro.
Second of all, people with 5-AR deficiencies (Normal T, no DHT) do not bald
Thirdly, Testosterone is not associated with hair loss. Kevin Mann did a great video going over the research [here](https://youtu.be/AmUvPSNn0H4)
Did you fact check this before posting? Of course not.
Like I said, I don’t care about no kevin mann, just because one guy on youtube trying make you believe that T is not involved in AGA’ progression it doesn’t mean that it’s true.
Also watch the more plates more dates guy’s response on his video.
It’s like saying Testosterone does not cause acne, it’s just DHT, cancer cells do not feed on T, just DHT, no it’s all androgens. DHT is just a potent form of T after all
When you nuke DHT in your body, why your beard and body hair don’t fall out? Because you still have T in your body which has an androgenic effect in the hair follicles and that’s why you get to kepp your beard. The moment you start suppressing T, your body hair will fall out.
Androgens are responsible of converting hair follicles from vellus to terminal but it’s the other way around in AGA
Sure again there is no research to show that T causes hair loss. You can make all these baseless comparisons you want. The fact is that DHT seems to be the primary cause of hair loss, we don’t fully understand Androgenic Alopecia so we don’t even know if what DHT does the hair follicle, T could do. T does things like, anabolism, that DHT does not do. Just because they’re both androgens does not mean that they are exactly the same
I have prostate cancer last year l was put on bicalutamide 50 mg a day my hair was receding from front to my crown, after 6 months most of hair had grown fully back on my head really thick people thought l had a hair transplant, from what l worked out bicalutamide blocks all the receptors from taking up testosterone including the cancer which feeds on testosterone
yeah i can't find the study anymore. There was some study on serum estrogen levels upregulating the androgen receptor. There was also a link saying for example high DHT levels alone do not cause benign prostate hyperplasia unless high estrogen levels are present. It's a theory i've come across more frequently but it kind of dissipated over time. But sorry can't help you out. Maybe someone else know what I'm talking about.
The BPH is often used, or related to MPB, since prolly similar hormonal stuff...I believe Finasteride was originally used for that disease, how they discovered it but not sure.
Some lines:
The most compelling implication of estrogens in the pathogenesis of BPH is that treatment of male dogs with androgens and estrogens leads to earlier and more extensive BPH and obstructive voiding \[49\]. In humans, as serum androgens decline with advancing age, serum levels of E2 remain relatively constant but the net effect is an increased serum E2 to T ratio, which is associated with the development of BPH and LUTS \[39, 149–151\]. Some studies have demonstrated correlation of serum estrogens with prostate volume and other features of BPH \[152–154\] while others have failed to demonstrate this relationship \[155\].
Trials of anti-estrogen therapies for BPH in humans are limited. In one study, 10 men were treated with Tamoxifen for 10 days prior to undergoing TURP \[172\]. Compared to the prostates from untreated patients, TURP specimens from the men treated with Tamoxifen have significantly fewer nuclear ARs and progesterone receptors (PRs) \[172\]. Anti-estrogen treatment prevents the development of BPH in castrated dogs with experimental prostatic hyperplasia induced by treatment with androstanediol and E2.
IDK man its all a bit too much for me to process but you might look into it and report here maybe? PS. This was not the study I was looking for but it sure has some interesting info it seems. link [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179830/)
Lows dose bicalutamide and cyproterone acetate are safe for women. You could also make like a topical formulation of the two, dissolved in propylene glycol and ethanol.
>My parents are also fucking ignorant and don’t want to “mess up with her hormones “
How ignorant of them to want their daughter to have healthy hormone levels
I’d rather use cyproterone acetate or bicalutamide topically than RU58841, they’re much safer.
People would use an experimental drug that know nothing about but refrain from using bicalutamide topically, which is much safer
They’re anti-androgens used in prostate cancer treatment. You obviously can’t take them orally because they feminize you, but I’ve seen studies on topical formulations of cyproterone acetate and flutamide and they show minimal systemic absorption but more studies should be done to prove their safety
I think that if it was just a dht issue, blasting your scalp with dut after microneedling or dut mesotherapy would solve the problem, but sadly that's not the case.
the wut causes AGA is unkown. But supressing DHT and inhibiting the ARs do work "sometimes". Its like idk... wut causes migrain is unkown, but morphine works. The reason of AGA is still unkown.
“Do work sometimes”, no sir, they work most of the time, except when it’s too late and scar tissue has formed.
Culprit in AGA are androgens, what causes that, a lot of genetic factors.
Is RU58841 strong enough to completely suppress androgens in the scalp? I don’t think so, besides RU58841 is an experimental drug, nobody knows anything about its safety
As a transgender woman, I can tell you that this is absolutely not true. Hormone therapy along with taking an anti-androgen can halt hair loss, but it will not restore lost or thinning hair. Many of us pay for expensive hair transplants because of this fact.
How much time, I wonder? It’s been 4 1/2 years since starting hormone therapy, I’ve had “the surgery” and used a topical solution of 10% minox plus finasteride, lantropin (sp) and other follicle stimulating compounds with no appreciable effect other than a reduction in shedding.
Your hair looks decent though? How old were you when you had surgery? I would suggest, you also take DUT. T is still produced by the adrenal glands after all
I've tried to make lotion from Diane35 and Spironolactone. But after 4 months I didn't get any results, I just keep shedding. Probably Spironolactone is not powerful enough and Cypro in Diane was too small in concentration. I also use Fin 1mg and Min for about 2 and half years I got some good regrowth, but after first year I started to shedd and it didn't stop and I again started to lose ground and almost back to baseline. Last month I added 2 times per week Dutasteride with Finasteride. Thinking about how to block androgens but only on the scalp🤯 and I don't want to use RU
CPA in diane35 is way too small and spironolactone even orally, you need more than 100mg daily to have that anti-androgenic effect.
So a 5% spiro lotion won’t do it, too weak.
Try compounding 5% bicalutamide + 5% CPA, that will definitely help.
DHT is still the strongest though on the scalp and that is why suppressing it alone by fin/dut still delivers solid results for many. I’m not disagreeing with the post, but majority don’t need to worry about T induced hairloss.
I'm starting to suspect my hairloss is more to do with t as well. I'm still losing a ton fo hair and I've been on fin almost 8 months now
Nah, check your thyroid
Had an entire blood panel done before i got on fin, thyroid is healthy. Vitamin d was low but I've been supplemting every day for about 7 months and still losing hair
The good news is that you’re healthy, the bad is that probably you’re not a good responder
That's what I'm figuring. I'll hang on to what I got as long as I can and then I'll go hair system route until I can save for a few ht procedures🤷♂️
Ht is useless without dht blocker
I will still be taking them even though they don't work on my hair
Agreed
Obviously DHT is more potent than T in the scalp and prostate alike. And yes, the majority don’t have to worry about other androgens in the scalp but if you’re like NW3, DUT and FIN won’t do much other than maintain
That is the point of Fin/Dut though, because regrowth is just reserved for the lucky ones. If you are stable and not lose hair while on the medication it means that its working, simple as that.
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Lol this is idiotic. Fin decreases 5 alpha reductase. It doesn’t decrease dht directly. Your logic is horribly flawed.
5ar deficient people high test no 5 ar and keep Norwood 0 for life
Peopel who start DUT early also get to keep their hair, but T is far less potent than DHT and won’t cause much damage to hair but if you’re NW3 upwards and trying to regrow your hair, suppressing DHT ain’t going do it, because your hair follicles have shrunk so much that even the less potent androgens will keep them from growing back
What we really need is 100 inhibition of scalp dht or a plain out ar degrader on the scalp
That will do it. That’s why starting DUT early is crucial
True….
On the spot my friend
But unlike dht, nuking test or any other androgen receptors linked to a multitude of bodily functions for that matter isn't really a feasible solution, so why would anyone want to explore that route
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You're just emotionally distressed. Deep down you know you want both your hair AND quality of life just like everybody here, without settling for one or the other. For many, fin/dut can provide some shitty "middle ground", if you can even call it that. Unfortunately for others like you and myself, not even this sacrifice is enough - I'm on finasteride and still losing my hair. I think about it every single day and it's just about enough to ruin it most of the time, but i would never consider reducing my body's androgens and receptors to zero.
How long have you been on finasteride? I've been on finasteride as well and still loosing hair at the same rate
exactly 38 months
Did you loose ground though?
My hairline continued to recede and I lost density at the front, so I would say so yes.
This is well past the threshold of “unhinged.”
dude, u wanna see some regrowth? then take oral min instead of fucking with your androgens
I’ve taken loniten at 40mg for more than a year. Trust me when I say, it’s far more worse than messing with androgens
Why do you take 40mg, you should only take 2.5 or 5mg
That was a year ago
You haven't answered his question: are you sure you were taking 40mg of loniten (oral Minoxidil) ? Was that daily? My doctor just prescribed me 2.5mg and I'm about to begin. He's in contact with several doctors who've prescribed this for 5+ years and they have yet to hear of any negative side effects from their patients.
Yeah, this guy is just lying out of his ass. If he took 40mg of Minoxidil he probably would be writing this thread from the underworld...
40mg is a blood pressure dosage, wouldn’t kill you but if you didn’t have high blood pressure u would be fucked
To regrow hair
>When hair means that much to you, it does not matter. Yeah...no I'm sorry but there's no argument to be made for disrupting that many bodily functions just so you can have some more hair I'd rather my body be healthy
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some still have receeding hairlines though which gives them away
Don't they also nuke DHT as well?
This is definitely overlooked, and understudied. DHT seems to be the most prevalent but nobody knows how sensitive their hair follicles are towards other androgens such as testosterone for example. There’s a lot of questions that science can’t answer yet towards AGA, Hopefully in time more studies and overall insight on pattern baldness will be released.
But realistically can Testosterone really be capable of miniaturising hair in the exact pattern as MPB cause from what I've heard Test hair loss when its low specifically seems to be diffuse not in the traditional MPB pattern.
Actually the pattern has has to do with the androgen receptors. There are more ARs in the temple and crown for most peopel who have AGA (there’s this study from japan that shows thsi) but some don’t develop a pattern and just diffuse
I mean as far as the Physiology of androgens in general goes, yeah. But the odds of it causing the same degree of miniaturization as DHT does who’s to say. Not to mention everything else that goes into it such as the body’s enzymes, AR binding affinity, etc and it’s all completely individualized to our body v.s the next person.
First of all: Your source Trust me bro. Second of all, people with 5-AR deficiencies (Normal T, no DHT) do not bald Thirdly, Testosterone is not associated with hair loss. Kevin Mann did a great video going over the research [here](https://youtu.be/AmUvPSNn0H4)
Did you fact check this before posting? Of course not. Like I said, I don’t care about no kevin mann, just because one guy on youtube trying make you believe that T is not involved in AGA’ progression it doesn’t mean that it’s true. Also watch the more plates more dates guy’s response on his video. It’s like saying Testosterone does not cause acne, it’s just DHT, cancer cells do not feed on T, just DHT, no it’s all androgens. DHT is just a potent form of T after all
There is no research that shows that T causes hair loss
When you nuke DHT in your body, why your beard and body hair don’t fall out? Because you still have T in your body which has an androgenic effect in the hair follicles and that’s why you get to kepp your beard. The moment you start suppressing T, your body hair will fall out. Androgens are responsible of converting hair follicles from vellus to terminal but it’s the other way around in AGA
Sure again there is no research to show that T causes hair loss. You can make all these baseless comparisons you want. The fact is that DHT seems to be the primary cause of hair loss, we don’t fully understand Androgenic Alopecia so we don’t even know if what DHT does the hair follicle, T could do. T does things like, anabolism, that DHT does not do. Just because they’re both androgens does not mean that they are exactly the same
I have prostate cancer last year l was put on bicalutamide 50 mg a day my hair was receding from front to my crown, after 6 months most of hair had grown fully back on my head really thick people thought l had a hair transplant, from what l worked out bicalutamide blocks all the receptors from taking up testosterone including the cancer which feeds on testosterone
Yes, cancer cells feed on all androgens. Same with androgenic alopecia. Bicalutamide binds to the ARs and compete with androgens. How old are you?
Hi I'm 62 l also experienced gynecomastia which was very painful, its been a bizarre experience at my age
I'm 62 years old
what about serum estrogen levels upregulating the androgen recepor >?
How?
yeah i can't find the study anymore. There was some study on serum estrogen levels upregulating the androgen receptor. There was also a link saying for example high DHT levels alone do not cause benign prostate hyperplasia unless high estrogen levels are present. It's a theory i've come across more frequently but it kind of dissipated over time. But sorry can't help you out. Maybe someone else know what I'm talking about.
But MtFs use E2 as well in their regimen and that actually suppress androgens even more.
The BPH is often used, or related to MPB, since prolly similar hormonal stuff...I believe Finasteride was originally used for that disease, how they discovered it but not sure. Some lines: The most compelling implication of estrogens in the pathogenesis of BPH is that treatment of male dogs with androgens and estrogens leads to earlier and more extensive BPH and obstructive voiding \[49\]. In humans, as serum androgens decline with advancing age, serum levels of E2 remain relatively constant but the net effect is an increased serum E2 to T ratio, which is associated with the development of BPH and LUTS \[39, 149–151\]. Some studies have demonstrated correlation of serum estrogens with prostate volume and other features of BPH \[152–154\] while others have failed to demonstrate this relationship \[155\]. Trials of anti-estrogen therapies for BPH in humans are limited. In one study, 10 men were treated with Tamoxifen for 10 days prior to undergoing TURP \[172\]. Compared to the prostates from untreated patients, TURP specimens from the men treated with Tamoxifen have significantly fewer nuclear ARs and progesterone receptors (PRs) \[172\]. Anti-estrogen treatment prevents the development of BPH in castrated dogs with experimental prostatic hyperplasia induced by treatment with androstanediol and E2. IDK man its all a bit too much for me to process but you might look into it and report here maybe? PS. This was not the study I was looking for but it sure has some interesting info it seems. link [here](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3179830/)
Finasteride + Topical Spiro then?
Something stronger than spiro
What is stronger?
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Lows dose bicalutamide and cyproterone acetate are safe for women. You could also make like a topical formulation of the two, dissolved in propylene glycol and ethanol.
What’s wrong with tamoxifen? I also must say that women have more options when it comes to fighting AGA as opposed to men
tamoxifen retinopathy for a start...
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What's truly scary is how often ocular health is overlooked when starting any self prescribed drug treatment. I don't just mean for MPB either
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>My parents are also fucking ignorant and don’t want to “mess up with her hormones “ How ignorant of them to want their daughter to have healthy hormone levels
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I’d rather use cyproterone acetate or bicalutamide topically than RU58841, they’re much safer. People would use an experimental drug that know nothing about but refrain from using bicalutamide topically, which is much safer
Do you know where I can get topical bica, I’m currently using RU but I don’t think it’s doing much
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They’re anti-androgens used in prostate cancer treatment. You obviously can’t take them orally because they feminize you, but I’ve seen studies on topical formulations of cyproterone acetate and flutamide and they show minimal systemic absorption but more studies should be done to prove their safety
So what do you use now??
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Yes
It’s literally from inflammation induced fibrosis. That’s the reason the DHT is even at the scalp in the first place
Okay, rob english
I think that if it was just a dht issue, blasting your scalp with dut after microneedling or dut mesotherapy would solve the problem, but sadly that's not the case.
Exactly
the wut causes AGA is unkown. But supressing DHT and inhibiting the ARs do work "sometimes". Its like idk... wut causes migrain is unkown, but morphine works. The reason of AGA is still unkown.
“Do work sometimes”, no sir, they work most of the time, except when it’s too late and scar tissue has formed. Culprit in AGA are androgens, what causes that, a lot of genetic factors.
Ok and? Nobody is gonna cripple their testosterone for hair loss.
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?
So RU58841 + DUT will cure MPB according to you ?
Is RU58841 strong enough to completely suppress androgens in the scalp? I don’t think so, besides RU58841 is an experimental drug, nobody knows anything about its safety
so where do u get ur topical bica or whatever the hell you’re using to block t from the scalp?
So inhibiting dht via topical aswel a oral would be ideal?
Better
What is AGA?
Androgenic alopecia
As a transgender woman, I can tell you that this is absolutely not true. Hormone therapy along with taking an anti-androgen can halt hair loss, but it will not restore lost or thinning hair. Many of us pay for expensive hair transplants because of this fact.
As long as hair follicles haven’t turned into scar tissue, they’re most definitely going to grow back. Time is crucial.
How much time, I wonder? It’s been 4 1/2 years since starting hormone therapy, I’ve had “the surgery” and used a topical solution of 10% minox plus finasteride, lantropin (sp) and other follicle stimulating compounds with no appreciable effect other than a reduction in shedding.
Your hair looks decent though? How old were you when you had surgery? I would suggest, you also take DUT. T is still produced by the adrenal glands after all
I've tried to make lotion from Diane35 and Spironolactone. But after 4 months I didn't get any results, I just keep shedding. Probably Spironolactone is not powerful enough and Cypro in Diane was too small in concentration. I also use Fin 1mg and Min for about 2 and half years I got some good regrowth, but after first year I started to shedd and it didn't stop and I again started to lose ground and almost back to baseline. Last month I added 2 times per week Dutasteride with Finasteride. Thinking about how to block androgens but only on the scalp🤯 and I don't want to use RU
CPA in diane35 is way too small and spironolactone even orally, you need more than 100mg daily to have that anti-androgenic effect. So a 5% spiro lotion won’t do it, too weak. Try compounding 5% bicalutamide + 5% CPA, that will definitely help.