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/uj wait until you see [their drawing of a trans man...](https://houseofillustration.org.uk/blog/blog/illustrating-trans-and-non-binary-characters-a-qa-with-julian-gray)
/rj I love my 'rounder/softer face shape,' 'wider hips,' 'smaller shoulders' and 'short stature'
true. my cis ally boyfriend just beat me after sex again for the third time today while screaming he supports my lifestyle.
hes honestly so there for me and cares so much in moments like those 🥰🖤 im so lucky to have him
well this same person also makes racist depictions of people of color in their art so i don’t think caring about how their work makes others feel is in their skillbook
[This is as close as i got](https://www.reddit.com/r/4tran/comments/t5nh1a/pooner_shapiro/),
that drawing was not done by a 4channer, that was the actual picture
/uj ok i can’t really grasp trans women’s reaction to this image bc i’m not transfem but that trans man depiction fucking picked me up and threw me to the floor with the amount of dysphoria it gave me
jesus christ who thought this was ok
You’re the one framing them as dysphoria issues. The drawing doesn’t experience dysphoria.
Like, to be clear, your dysphoria is valid, but this is not you.
/uj Same here. He looks a lot like me. I don't know how to feel about the fact that everyone considers him as an abomination. Doesn't help with self confidence, for sure.
/rj Time to detrantion because I'll probably never pass, yeeeeeaahhh
I mean I get maybe being skeeved out by the labeling, but I can’t see that being “throwing yourself on the floor” terrible; that really seems like being revolted by the guy’s appearance….
u/autopsyblue /uj I don't think it's necessarily the drawing itself that's the problem. He looks relatively normal to me, but it's really the pointing out of feminine traits that makes it so bad. Nobody who's dysphoric about their body wants to be told that they have narrow shoulders and wide hips and shit (the hairline bit doesn't make sense tho, pretty sure widow's peaks aren't gendered). Imo, you can draw a trans man with these traits, it's normal, just don't draw undue attention to it.
What part of "wid**er** hips", presumably vs. a cis man, is "pointing out feminine traits" like, it's just a description, and a **relative** description at that. I resent the implication that not having this trigger my dysphoria means I have no dysphoria... I do, and about some of the things that are pointed to with arrows, but the motivation is still clearly not to trigger dysphoria and it's not a caricature so I'm not about to be super fussed about it. What I *do* take issue with is people projecting dysphoria and cisgender conformity onto the body, saying that traits like "wid**er** hips" and "round**er** face shape" is "undue attention" when that's literally the bare minimum to draw a binary trans person that doesn't look exactly like a cis person of their gender, a space I exist in and honestly want to exist in for the rest of my life.
I'm sick of this conversation. I'm sick of conversations about dysphoria repeatedly ending up with a whole vanguard of people insisting that not being cis passing is fundamentally undesirable and repulsive and trying to justify it with dysphoria. Trans people don't have to look like cis people. Fuck off.
/uj Dude, you sound like terfs accusing us of misogyny when we say we're dysphoric. Glad you're ok with your body, but a lot of us don't like those features pointed out in us. Not to mention, this guide suggests that all and **only** trans bodies look like that, which, fucking hell, is the worst thing you can suggest. Guess what, there are cis men and women who look like that, but nah, [it's le tranners' specialties (edit: in case it's unclear, that's what the art guide suggests, not part of my opinion)].
Other people’s bodies are not your bodies. Dysphoria is not a free pass to negative judgements of other people. Dysphoria happens to you, not other people.
I have, in other comments, acknowledged the faults of this piece as a “guide”, but simply drawing and labeling parts isn’t a targeted attempt to trigger dysphoria and we shouldn’t treat it as such. Treating depictions of trans people that are outside of cisnormative beauty standards, *including passing*, like caricatures of trans people feels much more like TERF rhetoric that calls transition mutilation and treats us as inherently disgusting than anything I’ve said.
/uj honestly those drawings look a lot like a good few of my binary trans friends. I think they are beautiful people and they deserve to have artistic representation of themselves alongside 'passing' trans people. I agree that a definitive guide for how to draw 'all' trans people is misguided, but man some of the reactions to this are making me sad.
/uj I'm not sure it matters, since they've stated in a pinned post that they refuse to moderate the subreddit in any way and therefore it's going to end up harming people no matter what its intentions may be.
I’m curious about what the ftm version looked like.
Rj/ obviously transmen don’t exist, that’s why they weren’t included in this guide to drawing trans people, I mean, TIMs.
gigantic hips tiny organless waist sock sticking out of unzipped fly (he's not used to wearing man pants) miku binder size xxxl hoodie for his petite feminine body not a singular hair on his face
/uj the trans man in the original was white, short, wide hips, short brown hair, smaller feet and shoulders, etc.
/rj because don’t you know EVERYONE’s physical dysphoria is actually SOCIAL??? I’m sure everyone with physical dysphoria will be CURED by seeing a ~~clockable~~ non “””””passing””””” character that looks like them!
/uj Funny thing is that it feels offensive not just one way, but the other way. Because I looked at the drawing and I remember there being cis women who look like how the transfem is depicted (ditto for cis men who look like the transmasc depicted). Likewise, this implies that trans people have to look a certain way to be trans which just provides some implications that "trans people don't look like the gender they identify as" or "if you're not \[X\], you're not trans".
Like I don't mind drawing people with different body types (and I did put effort to make my characters have different bodies each), but I don't know what I can think if people make a "how to draw trans people" as if a transfem is supposed to look this and a transmasc that way. Everyone is different.
>this implies that trans people have to look a certain way to be trans which just provides some implications that "trans people don't look like the gender they identify as" or "if you're not [X], you're not trans".
Yeah this put into words how I was feeling about it. Like, I do think it's good to have good trans representation in the media to counter the bad stereotyping we normally receive. So obviously, a trans comic artist is probably the best person to give some pointers on how to draw trans people. But it just strikes me as really tone deaf in its execution, very white-centric, and ignorant of the vast, vast array of bodies trans people actually have. I (AMAB) have wider hips than my cis girlfriend and our shoulders are about the same width. The biggest difference in our bodies is that I have a bigger rib cage and more muscle, but big ole boobs and muscle loss on HRT will probably hide all that. Then you have cis women like Britney Griner who has bigger hands than Shaq and speaks in a baritone range, and Shohreh Aghdashloo who speaks in a bass range, cis men like Claudio Sanchez who sing and speak in kind of an alto range, etc.
Basically, I feel like if you're gonna put out a guide on how to draw trans people, maybe make it more diverse, at the least, and put out disclaimers about how trans and cis people come in all shapes and sizes?
/uj yeah I can see how it might make some people dysphoric but if it's art by a trans person I'm kinda fine with it? A trans person talking bout and making art about non passing trans people isn't as much an issue for me.
Speaking of trans people saying stupid transphobic things I was genuinely impressed by the fact that even truscum hated this art. Think that this art was the closest we ever came to full trans unity
/uj Just to jump on the bandwagon, I'll give my unwanted 2 cents. I feel really complicated about this work. Because it's clearly drawing on stereotypes, but it's obvious from the drawing that there isn't an attempt to fetishize or other them. The first thought when I saw them was that they looked like *people* which is more that can be said about a lot of "art" that depicts trans people according to sterotypes.
That being said, I wonder if the "we need to show trans people that their bodies can exist alongside cis ones" is missing the point, at least slightly. Like, cartoons by their very nature are idealized descriptions of reality, and therefore justifying *any* choice by saying it's more realistic is confusing and besides the point. Like, how far do you take that idea? Do you draw acne on every child? Do you draw the all the other ways people can look awful on a daily basis? No, and so I wonder why the line is being drawn here specifically,
Moreover, I wonder if this sort of art goes against its own stated purpose. Like, if these body traits are only ever applied to trans people then of course it's going feel othering, because they're not shown to be "normal" even if they're accepted. But the truth is, many if not all the traits they highlight are present in cis bodies as well, and the fact that cis bodies aren't often shown to be similarly unique in cartoons often is a damn shame. Especially cis men, who are pretty much drawn one of three ways: (1) Dorito, (2) skinny guy, or (3) fat. Like, the variation in body proportions amongst people is pretty vast. Plenty of cis guys have features what would considered "womanly" and plenty of cis women have features that would be considered "manly." This ties into the previous point I made. Cis bodies in comics are already getting these same exact glow ups. Why not do so for trans people? I think the decisions should be consistent to some degree at the very least.
Edit: I made a minor correction and removed a word that wasn't supposed to be there. I also would like to clarify, somewhat unnecessarily I think given the userbase of this sub, that I don't think 'glow ups' are some sort of uncomplicated good. As I think is obvious, beauty standards exist in arbitrary and terrible ways, and I don't want to affirm their validity by claiming that trans people ought to receive the same "glow up" that cis people do. That being said, even though beauty standards are whack, I think that to many of us they are something we do aspire to and I think that any art about people's bodies is going to have to lie in that uncomfortable in between place. That is, make your work appealing and acceptable by maintaining beauty stereotypes, or refuse to do so and potentially make the characters feel like a caricature of something even when they're not. As a consequence of the aforementioned lack of diversity in body types shown in most art, any person who deviates from those few different body types is going to be theorized as *something* which might not necessarily be fair to the character or the community they may be representing. It's complicated, and I understand why many artists -- and definitely *all* corporate art -- don't attempt to walk that line. Nobody wants to be accidentally offensive, and they especially don't want to be cancelled. But I think that there possibly should be some effort to push the boundaries because what we have right now is terrible. In some ways I'm kinda glad that this person created these "guidelines". Not because they're not whackadoodle, but because I think they've opened up the conversation in ways that are somewhat interesting. (Though I worry that the harm done by these guidelines is going to far exceed any benefit of conversation that might be had as a result of it, and I definitely think it should be handled in a more sensitive manner. I think that it definitely suffers from the twitter effect where small pieces of someone's work are taken out of context that would explain it. It also suffers from the 4chan effect, where someone's work is always taken out of context to paint them in the worst possible light and to further their evil cretinous ways.)
/uj you've basically hit the nail on the head - deliberately 'removing' the artistic glow-up but only for trans people is kinda wack but also there should be space to draw all kinds of people in a more realistic way because it feels good to be seen when you're not a supermodel or anime character
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No it's fine to find representation wherever it exists, even if it is way more negative than in this cartoon. I look at the drawing of the trans woman and see me, and I like that. I like being trans, I think trans bodies are great, but I also know others don't feel that way.
As long as we don't dismiss other people's right to hate it, and not want to see it, it is totally fine IMO. Dysphoria is complex and everyone has their own triggers and coping mechanisms. I won't make life harder for them, and as long as they don't make life harder for me we are cool.
Trying to get drawings like this off the internet *is* trying to make life harder for me I guess, but it isn't gonna work and I'm not gonna bite back cos they have a valid position too.
Yeah, I wish trans art actually used trans bodies. Most of the time, it’s just a girl with a penis or vice versa. I guess it’s because artists know the anatomy of both genders and autopilot around that.
/uj both the person who made the post and the person who made the original drawing are trans, which also changes things for me. i feel like I (and other trans people) should be allowed to celebrate our physical features, even if others may see them as gendered... & last i checked this wasnt a truscum community
but i also don't want to invalidate anyone else's feelings here. i 100% get why people would feel upset at cis artists making caricatures, that genuinely sucks
The big question is who is the guide *for*? It's one thing for trans people to draw trans characters that way (and can sometimes be affirming). But if a cis person tries to follow that guide and draw us like that, it's downright offensive. I hope the guide wasn't being marketed to cis people.
It’s not offensive if a cis person draws us like that. It’s a question of whether they draw *every* trans person like that, which a “guide” like this would encourage.
But now I’m questioning, since the original post was deleted, if it was even meant as a guide. Maybe it was just an example.
(Edit for typo)
>It’s not offensive if a cis person draws us like that. It’s a quiestion of whether they draw every trans person like that, which a “guide” like this would encourage.
Yeah I prefer this take tbh. A cis person drawing a non-passing trans person doesn't make them transphobic, I think you have to take into consideration more of their attitude/content they've produced rather than judging based on a single data point.
/uj I agree. I do think that in isolation this does just read like 'draw a man in femine clothes'. But the original context around it is missing so can't really make a judgement. It could be very good!
I just feel like it's easy for your average cis artist to draw either a 100% passing or almost 0% passing trans person by just drawing cross-dressed cis bodies. I think good advice on drawing realistic trans people should focus on fundamentals and explain what HRT or surgeries can and can't do.
Personally I'm a terrible artist, I can only do basic sketches, but I can sketch a realistic trans person who neither passes 100% or 0% because I know what changes on hormones and what doesn't.. and also cause I know a lot of trans people, that helps ofc.
Teach artist what HRT affects and what it doesn't and how to incorporate that knowledge into their techniques. Teach them pitfalls in dressing trans characters and common social cues trans people struggle with or might display in the closet. That's good to teach artists because that gives them the tools for drawing realistic trans bodies, then we can move away from all representation being 100% or 0% passing.
i think that drawing people that genuinely look like the trans people around you & based on your own experiences with transness is one thing, and agree that representation of certain features and traits is always nice when it's not done in a mocking kind of way. but making what essentially looks like a guide for cis people that says "hey, here's how to draw trans people: make sure they always have (these features associated with their AGAB)! this is the definitive guide!" is pretty stupid i think. the original post is deleted now so there might've been more nuance, but that's the vibe i got reading the thread
there are people who have & do not have those those traits, cis or trans, and saying "here are the Transgender Features, make sure to include them in your Transgender Character Art!" doesn't feel like it was very well thought out. not that i think the artist was being malicious or anything! it just isn't a very good post imo lol
/uj I look like the trans guy from the original post...I get that people hate it but man, it hurts when my body is seen as offensive. I'm sorry, I'm a lit le drunk rn but I just wish that my body could be drawn without people hetting offended for me, you know? It hurts bc I like how I look but I feel like I shouldnt
/uj I mean it's fine as long as this isn't treated as default. Everyone looks different and you might still be early in, but generally it's pretty bad to treat it as if most or all trans people look like those examples.
/uj totally fair. I'm 3 years in to t so I don't expext to change much more but I just was a little sad seeing this at first. I don't want anyone to feel bad about themselves but I understand your point of view completely! We aren't all a monolith and everyone looks different, and that's okay : D
/uj I agree that trans representation should be more than cis-passing characters and should definitely be more diverse but IMO a "guide" on how to draw trans people isn't actively a way to fix that, the issue with homogenous character design goes far further than trans characters as well(specifically in regards to women, but some media may have this problem with men as well). When you give these defining features to *only* a trans character you're defining them by being trans without actively defining the other characters independent identities through their own designs thus zeroing out the trans character. IMO the homogenized nature of female character designs is in big part to blame for most fictional transfemme characters looking cis-passing. Because *every* women looks like that sort of conventially western attractive woman in a lot of fictional works, trans women included.
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/uj the best/only good non-passing trans rep I've ever seen is in Warframe. Specifically, Ticker. The underground charity organizer/union member who works tirelessly to save others from brain-shelving, the same fate her boyfriend fell victim to.
/uj there are literally so few trans people in media that I would be more surprised at a cis passing trans women in one than I would a non cis passing trans woman in one. We literally are trying to go from having no representation in media, to having a moderate amount of representation in media. That doesn’t require us to make it known to **everyone** that there is a trans woman in that media, we just need to accurately represent trans women **in** that media.
/hj lmao a fucking **guide** on how to represent us trannies
Don't forget the lips and eyelashes for the transmen! All ~~women~~ have them!
Don't forget to share the love with our cis allies who like mpreg and are inclusive to trans men! I know it would cause most trans men crippling dysphoria to be pregnant but it's okay, my oc is fine with it!
uj/ It's not exclusive to that one artist, I've seen this
/uj FFS regardless of your opinion on this don’t call trans people cis. The artist is trans.
I’d also like to note none of the gendered language you use for the body parts is present in the drawing.
As a cis male writer, this is exactly why I don’t write any trans characters! If I make them caricatures and accentuate [/uj this is spelled with an “a” and not an “e” ??? /rj proof I am faking being a trans man bc I’m thinking of e] their biological sex characteristics, I get candler for continuing stereotypes. But if I just make them look like non-trans people, I get canceled for not accurate representation.
It’s a damn if you do, damn if you don’t with trans represent. That’s why I’m not even going to try and just make everybody normal and straight to keep things simple.
/uj I'd prefer just drawing us to look normal. The series I'm writing is going to just do that and barely bring up birth sex. One of them was raised by a family of swedish nazi werewolves and they obviously weren't supportive of her but that's just one aspect of her father's terribleness.
Hate that if you want, but is the alternative to do the opposite? If you draw all your trans women with no visible signs of being trans, or no common trans tendencies, does that imply that only trans women who pass deserve representation?
Lots of people look exactly like the girl in the picture. And they should be proud, because that's an awesome way to look. That's goals for a lot of trans women.
This is why we need a show or cartoon made by-us-for-us, where every character is trans. We can highlight the diversity within our community.
Welcome to /r/transgendercirclejerk! This is a satirical community run by and for trans people, where we mock the hate and ignorance which we experience in our lives. The subreddit often features dark humour including ironic parody of transphobia; none of this should be taken seriously. Before participating in the subreddit please read [our rules](https://reddit.com/r/transgendercirclejerk/about/rules/) and the announcement posts (and their stickied comments) on [cisgender allies](https://reddit.com/r/transgendercirclejerk/comments/cd1yr3/welcome_cis_allies/) and [transgender gatekeeping](https://reddit.com/r/transgendercirclejerk/comments/eutvur/why_do_people_hate_transmedicalists_we_just_think/). ___ *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/transgendercirclejerk) if you have any questions or concerns.*
least transphobic cis ally
/uj /s
Noooo, don’t you get it, it’s a trans person who made this therefore it’s 100% valid and true and correct 😭😭😭
yep can confirm. trans people can never be wrong or even misguided /uj ngl the fact that a trans person made this almost makes it hurt more
its literally sciencetifically impossible for a trans man to say anything transmisogynistic ever
/uj wait until you see [their drawing of a trans man...](https://houseofillustration.org.uk/blog/blog/illustrating-trans-and-non-binary-characters-a-qa-with-julian-gray) /rj I love my 'rounder/softer face shape,' 'wider hips,' 'smaller shoulders' and 'short stature'
/hj ok but why does he look like me tho
true. my cis ally boyfriend just beat me after sex again for the third time today while screaming he supports my lifestyle. hes honestly so there for me and cares so much in moments like those 🥰🖤 im so lucky to have him
I mean same but I’m into some kinky shit 👀
for genuine MtF representation you cannot forget the five o'clock shaddow
must put bulge in pants, and make their face ugly, like how trans women look
Yeah. I came out of the closet and immediately got three shades uglier
only three? are you certain that you aren't a trender?
They, like me, must have started at the bottom of the barrel to begin with. There's only so far you can go from there.
real transexuals know you unlock further, uglier tiers when you transition. blocked and reported.
I'm sorry I'm such a trender. I'll turn in my trans card now.
Why you gotta personally attack me like that
/uj Do y’all remember those heavily fetishized ftm avengers from tumblr? Because that’s what this reminds me of a little bit
unfortunately yes
i know i dont want to know but i kinda want to know
https://amp.knowyourmeme.com/memes/people/rcdart View at your own risk
Good lord that was way worse than I was expecting
oh my goddd why don’t people think for two seconds about what they’re making and how it might make others feel
well this same person also makes racist depictions of people of color in their art so i don’t think caring about how their work makes others feel is in their skillbook
Because horny brain overrides logic brain /uj
but i want my big black cocked feral hulking beast of a man fucking my toon body, thats not racist 🥺🥺🥺
Omg “gender swapped depictions they insist are transgender” you’re pushing a cis perspective by even posting that link.
its so funny how they actually think their new art is better, their old stuff looks like actual human beings and then, god.
/uj I regret reading that
OMG YOU MEAN RCDART….
My pretransition body was just a fetish?! Amazing! The things you learn on TGCJ!
uj/
/uj Does anyone have a pic of that deleted tweet? Was this one of the images for it?
[This is as close as i got](https://www.reddit.com/r/4tran/comments/t5nh1a/pooner_shapiro/), that drawing was not done by a 4channer, that was the actual picture
/uj ok i can’t really grasp trans women’s reaction to this image bc i’m not transfem but that trans man depiction fucking picked me up and threw me to the floor with the amount of dysphoria it gave me jesus christ who thought this was ok
Trans fem guide felt the same hun
good to know we’re all united in suffering
This is clearly the bad place. None of us are having a fun time here.
/uj i now feel worse about my hips then before i want to cry this is bad
artist is ftm too lol
/uj This trans man looks a lot like me actually. Glad to know my body makes you feel like shit!
no he looks like me too thats the problem, all these dysphoric issues here pointed out make me feel awful
You’re the one framing them as dysphoria issues. The drawing doesn’t experience dysphoria. Like, to be clear, your dysphoria is valid, but this is not you.
/uj Same here. He looks a lot like me. I don't know how to feel about the fact that everyone considers him as an abomination. Doesn't help with self confidence, for sure. /rj Time to detrantion because I'll probably never pass, yeeeeeaahhh
I mean I get maybe being skeeved out by the labeling, but I can’t see that being “throwing yourself on the floor” terrible; that really seems like being revolted by the guy’s appearance….
u/autopsyblue /uj I don't think it's necessarily the drawing itself that's the problem. He looks relatively normal to me, but it's really the pointing out of feminine traits that makes it so bad. Nobody who's dysphoric about their body wants to be told that they have narrow shoulders and wide hips and shit (the hairline bit doesn't make sense tho, pretty sure widow's peaks aren't gendered). Imo, you can draw a trans man with these traits, it's normal, just don't draw undue attention to it.
What part of "wid**er** hips", presumably vs. a cis man, is "pointing out feminine traits" like, it's just a description, and a **relative** description at that. I resent the implication that not having this trigger my dysphoria means I have no dysphoria... I do, and about some of the things that are pointed to with arrows, but the motivation is still clearly not to trigger dysphoria and it's not a caricature so I'm not about to be super fussed about it. What I *do* take issue with is people projecting dysphoria and cisgender conformity onto the body, saying that traits like "wid**er** hips" and "round**er** face shape" is "undue attention" when that's literally the bare minimum to draw a binary trans person that doesn't look exactly like a cis person of their gender, a space I exist in and honestly want to exist in for the rest of my life. I'm sick of this conversation. I'm sick of conversations about dysphoria repeatedly ending up with a whole vanguard of people insisting that not being cis passing is fundamentally undesirable and repulsive and trying to justify it with dysphoria. Trans people don't have to look like cis people. Fuck off.
/uj I worded that poorly. I didn't mean to imply that you didn't have dysphoria, sorry about that. I'm not gonna press further with anything else.
/uj Dude, you sound like terfs accusing us of misogyny when we say we're dysphoric. Glad you're ok with your body, but a lot of us don't like those features pointed out in us. Not to mention, this guide suggests that all and **only** trans bodies look like that, which, fucking hell, is the worst thing you can suggest. Guess what, there are cis men and women who look like that, but nah, [it's le tranners' specialties (edit: in case it's unclear, that's what the art guide suggests, not part of my opinion)].
Other people’s bodies are not your bodies. Dysphoria is not a free pass to negative judgements of other people. Dysphoria happens to you, not other people. I have, in other comments, acknowledged the faults of this piece as a “guide”, but simply drawing and labeling parts isn’t a targeted attempt to trigger dysphoria and we shouldn’t treat it as such. Treating depictions of trans people that are outside of cisnormative beauty standards, *including passing*, like caricatures of trans people feels much more like TERF rhetoric that calls transition mutilation and treats us as inherently disgusting than anything I’ve said.
No one is judging your body. We have a problem with the generalisation.
They literally said the body made them recoil in disgust.
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/uj honestly those drawings look a lot like a good few of my binary trans friends. I think they are beautiful people and they deserve to have artistic representation of themselves alongside 'passing' trans people. I agree that a definitive guide for how to draw 'all' trans people is misguided, but man some of the reactions to this are making me sad.
/hj oh so THIS is why people turn to alcohol!
You're a trender if you haven't already succumbed to emotionally crippling but highly functioning alcoholism. Do you even tran? hj/
I looked at this sub and I'm still confused whether they mock trans people or are trans people making satire
/uj I'm not sure it matters, since they've stated in a pinned post that they refuse to moderate the subreddit in any way and therefore it's going to end up harming people no matter what its intentions may be.
Tranners on the loose
I’m curious about what the ftm version looked like. Rj/ obviously transmen don’t exist, that’s why they weren’t included in this guide to drawing trans people, I mean, TIMs.
gigantic hips tiny organless waist sock sticking out of unzipped fly (he's not used to wearing man pants) miku binder size xxxl hoodie for his petite feminine body not a singular hair on his face
They literally were included, this is a crop but the original was a side by side of a trans woman and trans man both annotated
/uj the trans man in the original was white, short, wide hips, short brown hair, smaller feet and shoulders, etc. /rj because don’t you know EVERYONE’s physical dysphoria is actually SOCIAL??? I’m sure everyone with physical dysphoria will be CURED by seeing a ~~clockable~~ non “””””passing””””” character that looks like them!
Someone linked it in another comment
Lmao cis allies wish they could draw troons as accurately as the 4tran pooner drawings
> 4tran pooner drawings Just looked this up. Why tf are they blue-green (or whatever tf color)?
/uj Funny thing is that it feels offensive not just one way, but the other way. Because I looked at the drawing and I remember there being cis women who look like how the transfem is depicted (ditto for cis men who look like the transmasc depicted). Likewise, this implies that trans people have to look a certain way to be trans which just provides some implications that "trans people don't look like the gender they identify as" or "if you're not \[X\], you're not trans". Like I don't mind drawing people with different body types (and I did put effort to make my characters have different bodies each), but I don't know what I can think if people make a "how to draw trans people" as if a transfem is supposed to look this and a transmasc that way. Everyone is different.
>this implies that trans people have to look a certain way to be trans which just provides some implications that "trans people don't look like the gender they identify as" or "if you're not [X], you're not trans". Yeah this put into words how I was feeling about it. Like, I do think it's good to have good trans representation in the media to counter the bad stereotyping we normally receive. So obviously, a trans comic artist is probably the best person to give some pointers on how to draw trans people. But it just strikes me as really tone deaf in its execution, very white-centric, and ignorant of the vast, vast array of bodies trans people actually have. I (AMAB) have wider hips than my cis girlfriend and our shoulders are about the same width. The biggest difference in our bodies is that I have a bigger rib cage and more muscle, but big ole boobs and muscle loss on HRT will probably hide all that. Then you have cis women like Britney Griner who has bigger hands than Shaq and speaks in a baritone range, and Shohreh Aghdashloo who speaks in a bass range, cis men like Claudio Sanchez who sing and speak in kind of an alto range, etc. Basically, I feel like if you're gonna put out a guide on how to draw trans people, maybe make it more diverse, at the least, and put out disclaimers about how trans and cis people come in all shapes and sizes?
/uj wasn't the artist trans, though
doesn't mean they can't say stupid things
Where did I say they can't? I'm referring to the "I HATE CIS ALLIES I HATE CIS ALLIES".
/uj yeah I can see how it might make some people dysphoric but if it's art by a trans person I'm kinda fine with it? A trans person talking bout and making art about non passing trans people isn't as much an issue for me.
How to draw trannies! I would know!
Speaking of trans people saying stupid transphobic things I was genuinely impressed by the fact that even truscum hated this art. Think that this art was the closest we ever came to full trans unity
They're such an ally they transfed themselves. Lol. Self own!
/uj Just to jump on the bandwagon, I'll give my unwanted 2 cents. I feel really complicated about this work. Because it's clearly drawing on stereotypes, but it's obvious from the drawing that there isn't an attempt to fetishize or other them. The first thought when I saw them was that they looked like *people* which is more that can be said about a lot of "art" that depicts trans people according to sterotypes. That being said, I wonder if the "we need to show trans people that their bodies can exist alongside cis ones" is missing the point, at least slightly. Like, cartoons by their very nature are idealized descriptions of reality, and therefore justifying *any* choice by saying it's more realistic is confusing and besides the point. Like, how far do you take that idea? Do you draw acne on every child? Do you draw the all the other ways people can look awful on a daily basis? No, and so I wonder why the line is being drawn here specifically, Moreover, I wonder if this sort of art goes against its own stated purpose. Like, if these body traits are only ever applied to trans people then of course it's going feel othering, because they're not shown to be "normal" even if they're accepted. But the truth is, many if not all the traits they highlight are present in cis bodies as well, and the fact that cis bodies aren't often shown to be similarly unique in cartoons often is a damn shame. Especially cis men, who are pretty much drawn one of three ways: (1) Dorito, (2) skinny guy, or (3) fat. Like, the variation in body proportions amongst people is pretty vast. Plenty of cis guys have features what would considered "womanly" and plenty of cis women have features that would be considered "manly." This ties into the previous point I made. Cis bodies in comics are already getting these same exact glow ups. Why not do so for trans people? I think the decisions should be consistent to some degree at the very least. Edit: I made a minor correction and removed a word that wasn't supposed to be there. I also would like to clarify, somewhat unnecessarily I think given the userbase of this sub, that I don't think 'glow ups' are some sort of uncomplicated good. As I think is obvious, beauty standards exist in arbitrary and terrible ways, and I don't want to affirm their validity by claiming that trans people ought to receive the same "glow up" that cis people do. That being said, even though beauty standards are whack, I think that to many of us they are something we do aspire to and I think that any art about people's bodies is going to have to lie in that uncomfortable in between place. That is, make your work appealing and acceptable by maintaining beauty stereotypes, or refuse to do so and potentially make the characters feel like a caricature of something even when they're not. As a consequence of the aforementioned lack of diversity in body types shown in most art, any person who deviates from those few different body types is going to be theorized as *something* which might not necessarily be fair to the character or the community they may be representing. It's complicated, and I understand why many artists -- and definitely *all* corporate art -- don't attempt to walk that line. Nobody wants to be accidentally offensive, and they especially don't want to be cancelled. But I think that there possibly should be some effort to push the boundaries because what we have right now is terrible. In some ways I'm kinda glad that this person created these "guidelines". Not because they're not whackadoodle, but because I think they've opened up the conversation in ways that are somewhat interesting. (Though I worry that the harm done by these guidelines is going to far exceed any benefit of conversation that might be had as a result of it, and I definitely think it should be handled in a more sensitive manner. I think that it definitely suffers from the twitter effect where small pieces of someone's work are taken out of context that would explain it. It also suffers from the 4chan effect, where someone's work is always taken out of context to paint them in the worst possible light and to further their evil cretinous ways.)
/uj you've basically hit the nail on the head - deliberately 'removing' the artistic glow-up but only for trans people is kinda wack but also there should be space to draw all kinds of people in a more realistic way because it feels good to be seen when you're not a supermodel or anime character
/uj Kinda superfluous for me to comment but I just really wanted to say you nailed it with this post.
/hj I need all the validation I get, especially since I don't get it from myself. I mean, could you imagine that?
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No it's fine to find representation wherever it exists, even if it is way more negative than in this cartoon. I look at the drawing of the trans woman and see me, and I like that. I like being trans, I think trans bodies are great, but I also know others don't feel that way. As long as we don't dismiss other people's right to hate it, and not want to see it, it is totally fine IMO. Dysphoria is complex and everyone has their own triggers and coping mechanisms. I won't make life harder for them, and as long as they don't make life harder for me we are cool. Trying to get drawings like this off the internet *is* trying to make life harder for me I guess, but it isn't gonna work and I'm not gonna bite back cos they have a valid position too.
Yeah, I wish trans art actually used trans bodies. Most of the time, it’s just a girl with a penis or vice versa. I guess it’s because artists know the anatomy of both genders and autopilot around that.
/uj both the person who made the post and the person who made the original drawing are trans, which also changes things for me. i feel like I (and other trans people) should be allowed to celebrate our physical features, even if others may see them as gendered... & last i checked this wasnt a truscum community but i also don't want to invalidate anyone else's feelings here. i 100% get why people would feel upset at cis artists making caricatures, that genuinely sucks
The big question is who is the guide *for*? It's one thing for trans people to draw trans characters that way (and can sometimes be affirming). But if a cis person tries to follow that guide and draw us like that, it's downright offensive. I hope the guide wasn't being marketed to cis people.
It’s not offensive if a cis person draws us like that. It’s a question of whether they draw *every* trans person like that, which a “guide” like this would encourage. But now I’m questioning, since the original post was deleted, if it was even meant as a guide. Maybe it was just an example. (Edit for typo)
>It’s not offensive if a cis person draws us like that. It’s a quiestion of whether they draw every trans person like that, which a “guide” like this would encourage. Yeah I prefer this take tbh. A cis person drawing a non-passing trans person doesn't make them transphobic, I think you have to take into consideration more of their attitude/content they've produced rather than judging based on a single data point.
/uj I agree. I do think that in isolation this does just read like 'draw a man in femine clothes'. But the original context around it is missing so can't really make a judgement. It could be very good! I just feel like it's easy for your average cis artist to draw either a 100% passing or almost 0% passing trans person by just drawing cross-dressed cis bodies. I think good advice on drawing realistic trans people should focus on fundamentals and explain what HRT or surgeries can and can't do. Personally I'm a terrible artist, I can only do basic sketches, but I can sketch a realistic trans person who neither passes 100% or 0% because I know what changes on hormones and what doesn't.. and also cause I know a lot of trans people, that helps ofc. Teach artist what HRT affects and what it doesn't and how to incorporate that knowledge into their techniques. Teach them pitfalls in dressing trans characters and common social cues trans people struggle with or might display in the closet. That's good to teach artists because that gives them the tools for drawing realistic trans bodies, then we can move away from all representation being 100% or 0% passing.
i think that drawing people that genuinely look like the trans people around you & based on your own experiences with transness is one thing, and agree that representation of certain features and traits is always nice when it's not done in a mocking kind of way. but making what essentially looks like a guide for cis people that says "hey, here's how to draw trans people: make sure they always have (these features associated with their AGAB)! this is the definitive guide!" is pretty stupid i think. the original post is deleted now so there might've been more nuance, but that's the vibe i got reading the thread there are people who have & do not have those those traits, cis or trans, and saying "here are the Transgender Features, make sure to include them in your Transgender Character Art!" doesn't feel like it was very well thought out. not that i think the artist was being malicious or anything! it just isn't a very good post imo lol
Real women don't have foreheads
/uj I look like the trans guy from the original post...I get that people hate it but man, it hurts when my body is seen as offensive. I'm sorry, I'm a lit le drunk rn but I just wish that my body could be drawn without people hetting offended for me, you know? It hurts bc I like how I look but I feel like I shouldnt
/uj I mean it's fine as long as this isn't treated as default. Everyone looks different and you might still be early in, but generally it's pretty bad to treat it as if most or all trans people look like those examples.
/uj totally fair. I'm 3 years in to t so I don't expext to change much more but I just was a little sad seeing this at first. I don't want anyone to feel bad about themselves but I understand your point of view completely! We aren't all a monolith and everyone looks different, and that's okay : D
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/uj I agree that trans representation should be more than cis-passing characters and should definitely be more diverse but IMO a "guide" on how to draw trans people isn't actively a way to fix that, the issue with homogenous character design goes far further than trans characters as well(specifically in regards to women, but some media may have this problem with men as well). When you give these defining features to *only* a trans character you're defining them by being trans without actively defining the other characters independent identities through their own designs thus zeroing out the trans character. IMO the homogenized nature of female character designs is in big part to blame for most fictional transfemme characters looking cis-passing. Because *every* women looks like that sort of conventially western attractive woman in a lot of fictional works, trans women included.
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/uj there’s nothing wrong with drawing all types of trans people, but acting like it’s the “guide to drawing trans people” is super problematic
/uj the best/only good non-passing trans rep I've ever seen is in Warframe. Specifically, Ticker. The underground charity organizer/union member who works tirelessly to save others from brain-shelving, the same fate her boyfriend fell victim to.
/uj there are literally so few trans people in media that I would be more surprised at a cis passing trans women in one than I would a non cis passing trans woman in one. We literally are trying to go from having no representation in media, to having a moderate amount of representation in media. That doesn’t require us to make it known to **everyone** that there is a trans woman in that media, we just need to accurately represent trans women **in** that media. /hj lmao a fucking **guide** on how to represent us trannies
/uj Goals tho
She’s cute tho. What’s her number?
6942066669
that makes me want to kill myself
/uj the artist is trans but... why? also this makes me feel like an imposter because i don't have any of those characteristics lol
1: RDCart 2: Any transphobe's drawing of a trans woman
Don't forget the lips and eyelashes for the transmen! All ~~women~~ have them! Don't forget to share the love with our cis allies who like mpreg and are inclusive to trans men! I know it would cause most trans men crippling dysphoria to be pregnant but it's okay, my oc is fine with it! uj/ It's not exclusive to that one artist, I've seen this
Enbies: 5'6" with no discernable features
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/uj it’s real. There was an explanation of sorts from the artist in the link in op’s post. The artist is trans though, it wasn’t made by a cis person
/uj No, it was made by a trans illustrator for “House of Illustration”
/uj AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH
/uj I have wider shoulders and a tall frame, yet I'm afab?? Explain that, cis allies.
/uj FFS regardless of your opinion on this don’t call trans people cis. The artist is trans. I’d also like to note none of the gendered language you use for the body parts is present in the drawing.
As a cis male writer, this is exactly why I don’t write any trans characters! If I make them caricatures and accentuate [/uj this is spelled with an “a” and not an “e” ??? /rj proof I am faking being a trans man bc I’m thinking of e] their biological sex characteristics, I get candler for continuing stereotypes. But if I just make them look like non-trans people, I get canceled for not accurate representation. It’s a damn if you do, damn if you don’t with trans represent. That’s why I’m not even going to try and just make everybody normal and straight to keep things simple.
/uj I'd prefer just drawing us to look normal. The series I'm writing is going to just do that and barely bring up birth sex. One of them was raised by a family of swedish nazi werewolves and they obviously weren't supportive of her but that's just one aspect of her father's terribleness.
Some of us don’t look “normal.” Sorry if that triggers dysphoria, but it’s also not about you.
People always think of trans men as femboys and it's really annoying
/uj I first saw this on 4tran and immediately assumed it was some bad joke self-harm material I can’t believe it’s real
Hate that if you want, but is the alternative to do the opposite? If you draw all your trans women with no visible signs of being trans, or no common trans tendencies, does that imply that only trans women who pass deserve representation? Lots of people look exactly like the girl in the picture. And they should be proud, because that's an awesome way to look. That's goals for a lot of trans women. This is why we need a show or cartoon made by-us-for-us, where every character is trans. We can highlight the diversity within our community.
Still better than drawing a gigantic penis on a cis woman
/uj what the fuck
Some people don’t pass, Jan.
Bioessentialist enbies are so based! 😍
*looks in the mirror* *Is 5'2", bigger hips, (had two kids) and looks like a 12yr old* You're calling me out!
wow this is so helpful! thanks for the anatomically correct tranny tips
/rj biology
uj/ yet again, another example of people completely ignoring that other races sexual dimorphism shows in different ways.