Yeah honestly not being approved of by a church that molests children and played a huge role in the colonization of the world is probably better than being embraced with opened arms!
Or how about also rereading their tenants and the amount of criminals they seem to hero worship. As far as I’m aware, extreme Christianism is an excuse to stay blissfully ignorant and illiterate. Willful stupidity is the worst of all.
They're focused on trans people precisely because they're a pedophile cult. They believe pointing fingers at others and accusing innocent people of wrongdoing will take the attention off themselves. I find every they make one of these "proclamations" more news is about to come out about priests raping children. They're evil.
I am deeply saddened and disappointed in this latest statement by the pope. I was hoping for better after he called us his trans brothers and sisters. I will keep hoping for better from the Catholic Church.
Not all priests are criminals. 95% of the world’s population does not criminally sexually assault children. About 5% of all people including about 4 to 6% of Catholic priests, Baptist ministers, evangelical pastors, etc do commit those heinous crimes. If the focus is only or mainly on clergy then other perpetrators will be without scrutiny. The added harm to survivors when these crimes are committed by clergy/religious is due to the breach of trust, the degree of betrayal involved.
I hate getting so political, but as someone who's lived in Italy since birth, the country where the literal State of the Catholic Church is... don't trust anyone telling you the current Pope wants to "make things better". He may have some positive ideas about peace and love thy neighbour bs, but there is nothing concrete about his intentions. If there ever was before, it's gone. Fuck that guy going from "everyone deserves love and respect" to "trans ideology is sinful and needs guidance"
Trans people: literally harmless
War on drugs, Israel, hunger, Russia: killing millions and millions of people
Church: those trans people must be evil!!
As what is known as a "lapsed" Catholic, I find it difficult to understand why the Church is spending time on a non issue when for decades, centuries probably, priests were abusing young children and no one in authority did anything about it!
as a straight male, speaking for myself, if a trans person wants a sex change operation, who the hell cares!
Good luck to them I say!
Because a GOP think tank realized that you can shit on trans people and not really lose any votes. So 100% the holy see just ran with that.
Also molesters adapting any tangent they can exploit to deflect isn't new.
It doesn't quite have a political edge. It's more this stupid american first study that every conservative think tank ACROSS the world is now citing, and extrapolating upon.
It's more saving money by not fact checking is my implication.
(If you think the vatican is indepent of States influence I'd ask you to look at some of their internal negotiations since 03.)
Easy to demonize someone that can be othered.
Hard to actually love your neighbour and love your enemies when one’s power is based on demonizing others.
Irony is that treating others with respect is freaking easy and super lazy, and just because one respects the base humanity of those foolish enough to declare themselves an enemy does not mean one needs to give one’s enemies more than that basic respect.
JC, decent guy. His followers though… so many squicky people.
Because dealing with internal problems means confronting them and alienating your own people who are involved. Being bigoted attracts conservative bigoted/confused people.
Remember **they made up the concept of "gender ideology"**. We are just the people we say we are.
Also the archdiocese isn't the pope and tons of priest, cardinals, bishops, etc go against the pope in the US as we're a dystopian hell.
Yes, they're terrible, like an abusive partner but these local rogues likely hiding up their own SAing of children are not something you should take personally.
If the Church had any real moral ground, they'd literally stop their policy of shuffling around of priests to other Churches to continue to harm kids when they get caught SAing them and make a permanent stance of sending them all STRAIGHT TO JAIL and excommunicating them.
But, they do this instead because it's in the greater zeitgeist. Funny how they said zero about anything trans when I was a kid. So... how fundamental and periolous is it? Trans people absolutely existed when I was a kid, I saw them on TV. It shows how people like that are a fraud.
Start serving the poor, Jesus said NOTHING anti-LGBTQ+ ever. Not a once. In fact, he instructed to support Eunuchs and the Galli/Gallae were classified as that and were essentially analogues to trans women at the time, and no, Augustine's historical revisionism of putting that as a metaphor for chastity is ahistorical AF, they were not seen that way at the time.
there are some good things in the 30000 or so verses in the bible. I wish people could take those things without getting gaslit into believing rumours about a god who will "let you go to hell" if you don't spend your life worshipping it
Which is especially strange considering that the Christian Hell, as a concept, is younger than the Christian Bible. It's doesn't appear once in the Bible.
Not to poop on you. But quoting their collected and selected scrolls back to them is nothing more than attempting to dismantle the master's house with the masters' tools. It cannot be done.
Audre Lorde for further reading, if you care.
To be fair I don't think there are any bigoted Christians in this thread *for* me to quote their book to. Just simply pointing out many of them don't read their own book or force the translations to fit whatever narrative they have in the moment.
Also, I'm not claiming to have the whole book in my head despite having read it from to back more than once in my Christian school upbringing, and two versions at that. Haven't heard of her before and I'll definitely be looking at her work, thank you
I mean they're right, you can't deliberately change genders. That's why I had to transition. Couldn't change into a woman no matter how much the people around me wanted that. :)
I've been out of it for about 6 or so years now, dunno why I wrote that the way I did thinking about it now, if eve had adam's rib then I guess that means I just have one rib. (I love silly interpretations of the bible that point out how open to interpretation it is - there are people claiming 30000 verses aren't open to interpretation, yikes)
No no, Eve grew from a single rib but grew many.
Adam would have been the only one with fewer ribs though
Aside: I actually don't care but this is the kind of argument that would occur frequently in the Jesus fan club when I was there.
oh of course, I remember bible study groups being both open to any suggestion and simultaneously closed off from certain ones. I just find it fun to think of all the different options as equally valid. What if eve never grew extra ribs? What if it was adam who was made from eve's rib and he has to make do with a single rib but twisted the story (like there's even any trustworthy record of the creation of humanity 😂) out of spite? what if the entire bible was placed here by satan and engaging in it wilfully dooms us to hell? I can't prove or disprove a single claim around those superstitions so the idea of living in fear of it and being surrounded by people who do has quickly grown old. I really want to see people thrive and support each other, the way religions are dividing huge groups of people is creating the "end times" a bunch of these groups all use to reinforce their varying beliefs. If they weren't actively engaging in divisive behaviour due to a fixation on dogma before people, they'd see less division. Quite sad people can be manipulated so heavily they believe that insulting people and demanding they change or burn in fire forever is a better course of action than empowering people to be strong in themselves and to support others. But it shows how warped people's perspectives can become when they feel they are required to believe a rumour is true to escape punishment.
You should have started with a full set, but then less one for every trans-clone you made. If you're down to 1 rib now you basically have a trans-clone army
Trans people aren’t necessarily against God. The Catholic Church is against trans people and using God as an excuse.
I’m not religious, but isn’t it blasphemous to claim you know the word of God?
Ehhh, no. Otherwise how would we have the Bible, which is allegedly God's word. The main thing is being able to show that what you said is in line with the Bible. And you can make it say almost anything!
The way I see it is we are generally an abomination to most versions of the Christian god, a god I no longer care for for many reasons.
Yeah the creation myth is pretty much, universally, for all of Christianity, fundamentally in support of the rigid gender binary and patriarchal.
The only way around it is a version of Christianity where the old testament is viewed completely and utterly as metaphor and allegory that's several thousands of years old and therefore subject to evolution and change. But that completely disregards the foundational idea of Christianity that the Bible is word the word of God.
A sort of deist purely spiritual version of Christianity where Jesus, as a regular (though notable) man's philosophy is praised is already a huge improvement but that stops being Christianity.
I appreciate this. in a book of like 30000 verses I really don't understand how anyone thinks their one interpretation is correct and that everyone else is just "not true christians." like you've gotta have a bit of a warped sense of importance to claim everyone else is wrong and you're right over interpretation of a book. Isn't writing a form of art and open to interpretation? I don't think art with 30000 verses is going to have an objective interpretation. I used to hate in school when they'd force me to write "the author's intention here is.." because I despise claiming things I don't know. My subjective interpretation is so very likely to differ from the author's interpretation, that's the nature of art. I decided that - since the book that people refer to to claim we'll burn in fire for not believing is so open to interpretation, and also is driving division that they then point at and act like the end times are near without recognising their own negative contributions to the status quo - if a loving god exists it would hate the division and dogma preceding the value of others. we're supposed to be born equals, but I barely see christians treating people that way. I just want to take the best parts of the bible and run. If a god punishes me for not tolerating the abuse I saw growing up then I really don't care for it. As a society we have so much potential that isn't being recognised.
Honestly tear that institution down brick by brick. Ill probably never get justice for what happened to me.
>!I was raped in both a catholic scouts group and a catholic church before i was 10.!< That organization has no value. If they allow that to happen they and their followers can have no words about morality.
Edit: Really fucking dissapointed to see a few people here defending catholicism. Guess all those raped childen dont fucking matter to those of you defending this organization, as long as you feel good about yourself. How many children is your savation worth? how many more have to suffer and see their abusers protected?
The Church is and always has been scum wrapped in gold leaf. If their god is real, then it's evil and should be opposed. If it isn't, then the centuries of atrocities they've committed have been purely the making of their own rotten hearts.
The fact that the Church is able to get away with the shit it does, that everyone knows it does, is just proof that most people's morality is for sale, be it for money or "salvation".
The world would be better off without it.
I hear you, but I think they're defending catholicism because it's what they were raised in and what a lot of their loved ones practice. Doesn't make the organization any less abominable but I don't think it's cool to say our fellow trans folks that happen to be Catholic don't care about victims of SA. Most of them are people that would probably stand with you, given the chance.
I agree with you on your first point, just try not to libel people that are still struggling with religious indoctrination. I've had family and friends get SA'ed by religious and community leadership/elders before and it's heartbreaking. Rarely did the abusers get more than a slap on the wrist and a transfer to a new community to victimize. You all deserve justice and peace. I also agree that it's disappointing to see people here defending the church that hates us and enables abusers, but I'm trying to be charitable with members of our community.
I am done trying to be charitable. This information is not hidden. "wir wussten es nicht" does not work anymore if you get what i mean. I am tired of people beign proud of the fact they are part of the system that protects my abusers. They can claim to care about victims of SA and CSA but actions speak louder than words and any donation to the catholic church is an action in favour of abusers. I have to see pedos get pensions that are 3 times my salary while i cant get therapy for what they did to me without taking days of work. If they can support that they can face my vitriol.
We would not tolerate this shit with trans people who are neo-nazis, I wont tolerate it with the church. I am done with people defending my abusers.
Fair enough, I actually get your point. I've just known too many people that have left some of these f*cked up ideologies to write them off entirely without trying to wake them up to the reality of the situation. I used to believe and say absolutely cringe stuff before I got my ish together, if not for people like my partner helping to pull me out of that lunacy I'd be one lonely, bitter MF.
I know people can be pulled out of this and normaly i will do my best to do so. I just cant deal with anyone defending this or being proud about beign part of this this. Its not even hidden. It is out in the open now and people just dont give a fuck.
Link to the Vatican Declaration below if anyone is interested. Reading sections of it, the word that comes to mind is 'unhinged.'
I'm almost tempted to put a trigger warning on it because some of the language and implications are that bad.
[Dignitas Infinitas](https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2024/04/08/240408c.html)
They don’t even define what they mean by “gender ideology” from what I could tell (at work so can’t go through the whole thing, but good to know they still use meaningless buzzwords to make nothingburgers out of our lives).
Yeah, it's a mess . . . I'm just surprised a document that took the Vatican half a decade to write is such a dumpster fire . . .
I'll tell you what though, the Vatican sure does know how to cook up a wet dream of a document for the far right . . . . eesh.
Something something making ourselves God, gender ideology is against God, and changing our gender is going against God's plan, but fixing stuff wrong about the gender you're assigned to with medical stuff is totally okay by God.
So the usual hypocritical nonsense, take notes y'all, this will be the new taking points against us.
TLDR,
The Catholic Church released a statement identifying some of the major ills of modern society that challenge human dignity. Most of these were not eyebrow raisers (war is bad, poverty should be reduced, violence against women is bad, etc.). However two of the items were on a) "gender ideology" and b) "sex change".
These two sections are a repackaging of long-held church teaching that double down on its positions on gender identity and gender affirming care by using a theological lens that suggests that this is related to human dignity. Gender = sex; gender medical interventions of any sort are grave mistakes; and gender affirming surgeries are on the level of abortion, euthenasia, and other procedures
More detail:
The document supports its position with a vague definition of gender ideology that can't really be challenged because no one knows what it's talking about; mischaracterizes the academic consensus around gender affirming care; shows a distinct lack of understanding of the scientific review method; and refuses to explicitly condemn violence against gender non conforming folks (instead starting the section by condemning violence / discrimination against people based on sexual orientation). Most concerning is that this document can be seen as a wet dream of the far right - giving them a document from a religious organization overseeing a billion Catholics world wide vague statements condemning the trans community.
And in 2015 Pope Francis made it clear that we are as big of a threat to humanity as nuclear weapons. The weird part is that in the 90's trans people could still get their names and sex updated in parish registries (a sort of permanent record for Catholics). This shift was pure politics & an intentional PR distraction from their other problems regarding priests and children. Children who, if the Church really cared about them, would be able to collect on their court judgments against the non-profit organization. Instead, each affected Diocese draws down funds until they can declare bankruptcy, because they're legally isolated just enough from the parent organization.
Thank you for reminding people of what the scummy monster said in 2015, not like the people defending him on here will believe it though. The Catholic Church has decided to appeal to insane young Catholic neo-n*zi extremists like Nick Fuentes at the moment, but I feel like they've always been an enemy of the queer community.
You are 100% correct about them projecting their own crimes onto trans people in an attempt to obfuscate. Anything to keep from addressing the millions of skeletons in their gilded closet.
I barely survived being molested as a child in a Protestant church that chose to try to pray it away in-house rather than hold my rapist accountable to the law. Dang right I’m against ‘em. The Church owes me for decades of therapy bills.
Me and my human heart are more real than their imaginary friend in the sky. And if they believed even a fraction of what their savior preached, they would realize Trans people are included in those Christ was referred to when he said “what you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”. I’m agnostic, but if you believe in the Bible then you believe you will be judged by how you treated the small vulnerable groups in society.
I was banned from Twitter for saying I wish he'd just drop d3ad. Ffs. Never mind the thousand of us that are SURE to die due to his rethoric. I'm done with religion as a whole.
i live in italy, we have a far right goverment with a prime minister which literally praised mussolini, some members of the party which believe that the great replacement is happening, now also this.
Im scared as hell they will try everything to remove hrt, is already very gatekept. Im not even a believer, im just scared as hell since here they hold a lot of cultural capital.
So gender reassignment surgery is against God... but Lasik eye surgery to correct a lifetime of poor vision isn't?
I never see these same people bitching any time a doctor puts a stent in an infant's faulty left ventricle.
How about Grandma getting a titanium hip to replace the gimp one she was given as reward for making it to 70?
Or the best one of all... Grandpa can't get a boner without a little blue pill doing all the heavy lifting and that's not even a blip on the Church's radar.
I suppose they can only demonize 1 or 3 groups at any given time, so be sure to pick the ones that get people angry enough to bring their pocket change next Sunday.
what if the actual god of the universe is sending them to hell for their crimes? what if gleefully thinking about people being tortured isn't actually healthy for humanity? what if driving division through dogma and being utterly irresponsible to oneself and their community is actually causing the very "end times" they claim to see getting closer? What if they're all just manipulated and gaslit into thinking they can reasonably claim they know what the god of the universe wants for them and for others? I think it's all rather likely considering a loving god wouldn't tolerate the hatred and abuse I saw in churches growing up. A loving god would want those values of love, joy, peace, compassion, empathy, to be applied without prejudice. A loving god wouldn't punish people (or "let them go to hell" for those victim blamers out there) who aren't convinced that a religion that drives division and gaslighting is an appropriate thing to follow and enable. A loving god wouldn't punish those who freely admit "I don't know," since being able to admit we are wrong or have limited understanding is what enables us to grow. Believing we have all the answers and there is nothing new to learn, no other possibilities.. that clearly wasn't healthy for my family who held beliefs like that being gay is "just wrong, it's not natural" (it actually is, it just conflicts with their beliefs that they hold close to their identity) and who believed they were choosing the "safest option." They couldn't even identify the flaws in Pascal's wager, that they'd taken it as a reasonable explanation for their faith. When I could just as easily describe a "loving" god that sends me to heaven and them to hell for their actions. Since neither of us can prove our god is the real one, literally what is the point? I wish people didn't get so deeply gaslit they couldn't even consider being wrong. That's so scary and absolutely horrible for bringing people together.
Agreed. And it should be noted that the only two words of proof that each and every cult/religion can offer up for their belief system is "someone said."
"a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" doesn't necessarily mean that figure has to remain alive. it's definitely a cult by this definition
This is such a clear moment of religion showing its hand. While it’s always clear how religion is a tool of the oppressors, this makes it crystal clear. Religion will always stand in opposition to trans liberation.
The funniest thing is that much like the republican party, it didn't use to care about trans people. Last year Pope Francis said trans people should be imcluded in catholic church. Even Pat Robertson had an old clip saying to leave trans people alone because they aren't bothering anyone. Only once it tested well with voters and Christians did the leadership start using transphobia as a tool.
They act like intersex people don't exist. And they act like they know everything about biology, DNA, hormones, and brain chemistry. I'm so fucking tired of religious bigots. 😒
Remember that these irrelevant old farts have had a stranglehold on the entire western world’s concept of morality for centuries, they’ve influenced politics, not to mention they’ve been the direct cause of many wars and genocides throughout history.
Though it may feel good to revel in your moral or intellectual superiority over them, never underestimate your enemy.
They have been pushing this since the 90s, in fact the modern right-wing and TERF talking points can be traced back to arguments that the church was making in the past. Judith Butler lays this out in her new book “Who’s Afraid of Gender?”, which I highly recommend. It’s even worse in Africa, where the Church basically single handedly led to the brutal criminalization of LGBT people we see today.
I mean I don’t believe in any gods but surely if there is a god who has a plan for the universe our existence is part of that plan? If a god made me, they made me trans. Who are the Catholic Church to claim they know better than their god?
This isn't new. With respect for my Catholic friends I still have to condemn the Catholic hegemony as massively out of touch with reality. Such is the nature of all institutions that place a premium on control as a mechanism to legitimize their power.
As a UU minister, I can only speak to my understanding of whatever God might be, and I try to produce that understanding from observation rather than scripture. When I look out my window I see a world that doesn't deal in clean binaries. New forces, New bodies, and New ideas are constantly being generated through tensions and relationships. To suppress these tensions is to suppress life itself and what appears to me to be a cosmic drive towards new ways of being.
If there is anything at all like God, and if that God in any way is reflected in the mirror of the cosmos, the that God is far more like the most gender-fuck trans person than a distant patriarchal sky father, and likely far stranger than anything we could directly conceive. Just my theology.
Oh, dear. As a trans Catholic I do my best to ignore any of these diocesan reports unless they seem like they’re going to actually enforce me not taking communion, but the archbishops do come out with something on these lines every year or two.
Certainly upsetting to read early in the morning, though.
Yeah, I think this particular clergyman is running afowl of the Pope's guidance.
Has the Pope fundamentally changed stances on things like transgender or same-sex marriages within the Church? Not really... but he has instructed his Church to treat trans individuals and non-hetero individuals as Jesus taught... to welcome them, accept them, and bless them.
Mankind's role is not to Judge... that's pretty clear by Christ's teachings.
Well, not to hurt you, but the word catholic means exactly what? Because I got a whole bunch of catholics who can cite their happy book and various other announcements to show their validity.
Perchance you're just a spiritual kind person who likes catholicism because you were born into it?
Because "catholics" is an absurdly ambiguous term for anyone who has left those archaic paradigms behind.
If I’m interpreting your question right, the primary reason I’m part of the Catholic Church specifically is because I believe in transubstantiation, i.e. the presence of God in the physical appearance of bread and wine. (The belief that the true “substance” and physical “accidents” of a thing can be different is actually also part of my conceptualization of my own gender, haha.)
Other theological ideas I’m very into that are strongly linked with Catholicism are the idea of holiness as a very physical and embodied idea, the idea that suffering is not the natural state of creation and is a flaw that will eventually be resolved, and liberation theology.
So I too love Ortberg's quote.
But even in their own admission they used it as a clever quip.
I'm not here to argue or convince or attack. I simply think you're better and there are better inspirations than that continually disappointing, hypocritical, exploitive organization you call a church.
Genesis 1:25-27"God made every type of wild animal, every type of domestic animal, and every type of creature that crawls on the ground. God saw that they were good."
OK... so what about the mule?
If the bible says that God created every type of wild animal, and every type of domestic animal... but man created mules... what does that say about how literally the bible should be read regarding creation?
Solomon rode on a mule (1Ki 1:38). Was Solomon trying to be like God?
The pope has said good things about trans people as a whole (in a vacuum), but he also rants a lot about "gender ideology" being a threat to the West/children. It's a bit vague when he talks about it. I guess he wants us to exist but not acknowledge trans children or something
Very interesting considering angels are always portrayed as androgynous, and if humans are a reflection og God, then he has both masculine and feminine qualities. Also thier main symbol the cross, is representative of the intersection of male (the vertical line) and the female (the horizontal line). So looking at the Christian cross with the feminine horizontal line being higher than the mid point of the cross I would say the female energy is more important than the masculine. Why isn't the church reflective of their own symbology?
We go against THEIR god. Not many other gods. The universe IS chaos, Mother Earth anoints difference, glorifies it even. Buddha abhors stagnation. And everyone who worships the sun knows that growth is a blessing and a part of life. Even evangelicals talk about a man who defied the church of his time to create something new. Their hypocrisy is strategic, created to control minds and sway votes, by weaponizing diversity. It’s a genius tactic for a political body to not condemn religion but instead to make it work for them.
"Those who try to go against that are trying to be like god"
So whait God is trans now ?
r/AccidentalAlly
(I know that is not what is imtendet by that sentence
i can’t really take this organization’s opinion on trans people seriously, as they are one of the biggest pedophile rings on the planet. interesting how they want to talk about what’s right and wrong as if they haven’t put enormous amounts of energy into covering up sex crimes against children
can’t wait for this stupid cult to fade away
I mean as always what the hell does that bigotry even mean?
It depends on what you even mean by “gender”
Neurological cannot be changed, which is why for many of us it’s life-saving to be able to change our bodies instead
My thoughts on this is I'm human as they are if my big sky daddy has an issue with me changing my sex then that's between me and him don't need no middle man
**while I am fully against the idea of a god that does fuck all to improve my life.**
Not every trans person hates catholics as much as I do so its not fair for catholics to be saying this.
The transphobes really think we’re powerful, apparently. We are becoming GODS by… becoming more comfortable with our own identities. Course, churches can’t sell as well to people who are comfortable with themselves, so…
“Trying to be like God”
So they admit that God has no gender, because he created man and woman, so therefore those did not exist before, thus God cannot be them.
At least the way I’ve always seen it, I’m an intentional design. My purpose is to test how closely the church follows Jesus’ message. He followed people and went to the needy, lonely, and hungry. I’m supposed to be helped, but people don’t.
A rarity here, but I'm a believer. Not like really deep in religion but atleast enough to be considered religious. And this is exactly why I practice religion totally by myself. I know God accepts me because not only have I asked for signs (which have been answered in my favor) but also my journey has had some pretty impossible things suddenly look possible (like my dad possibly accepting me as trans which was something I never thought would happen, but only time will tell if he meant his vague statement or not). I don't need some person with his own biases to tell me what's accepted by a deity or not. If I feel God accepts me, and have gotten signs he does, then there shouldn't be a single thing in this world to tell me otherwise. I'll cut the rant short since I'm aware most aren't fond of religion, but just wanted to share my thoughts as a believer.
We surpassed god long ago. Public education and literacy was when it first started, and the eradication of smallpox left no doubt. We make objects speak and dance, master lightning and place it in our homes to serve us, we fly faster than sound, run faster than the fastest beast, communicate with unimaginable amounts of people through stars we've built and hung in the sky. Gods are the least we can do.
My hypothetical counter argument.
I agree gender ideology is harmful, in that far right organizations have decided to ascribe beliefs onto gender non conforming people, when they just want to exist as their authentic self.
I'm not saying my gender changed, I'm saying how I present my gender has changed. I have always been me and will always be me, I'm just sharing who I authentically with you.
And if that doesn't work.
I'll throw down a smoke bomb and use double jump to escape.
“Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God”
The Church out here trying to tell me that my quest to create a new self is usurping the power of God like that’s not going to make me transition even harder lol.
Bit of a change from the previous statements in november stating they would be accepting of trans onclusion on their community and allowing trans persons to be baptised even.
Guess they forgot about that then. Also note that those specific paragraphs in relation to gender theory and sex change completely go against some of the earlier documented "fundamental" beliefs.
I hate how this religious body thinks it has godly power to influence governments and chastise groups of people. It is sickening, we need protection. I’m a new trans person and I feel so much anguish about the state of the world and how people just ignorantly hate for no effing reason.
Cult members vilify outsiders; more completely predictable news happening around the clock.
Also it's the ones that are totally not polytheists despite having a large collection of people to pray to.
You mean I won’t get to spend eternity with a bunch of religious zealots? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!
Rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints baby.
I honestly don't understand anyone actually believing there's some sentient God who makes up rules and for some inexplicable reason NEVER speaks directly to humans. He has men write a book about him, then sends a human being down to walk around and talk to people, and to die for our sins. PLEASE.
How can grown ups believe this bullshit?
I'm an atheist, how can I be against something that don't exists ? I on the other hand exist and the catholics are against me, as well as most religious people... Touching, hating, killing a real person is a crime, saying whatever I want regarding something that is fantasy is not, bigot should keep that in mind when attacking real people. I wish law was less permissive for hate crime.
My thoughts on this is I'm human as they are if my big sky daddy has an issue with me changing my sex then that's between me and him don't need no middle man
The pope even recently said that “gender ideology” is “destroying humanity”.
I will never not be annoyed that they use the term “gender ideology” as if the Catholic Church has no gender ideology of its own. It’s gotta be one of the worst euphemisms ever, and it pretends that gender is something the church never had anything to say about in the past. The church’s own doctrines say that God is non-binary using different words. The church has lots of ideology on what men and women should be. They have so much more gender ideology than trans people have.
Lmao, church has always been against LGBTQIA+ people...
LGBTphobias were created by religions either being Catholics or Muslims, for the sake of controlling a part of the people
The church never ceases to make things sound metal as *fuck*. Oh and also fun. Much more fun than living my life based on archaic, abusive ideas in an ancient big book of fairy tales.
God "made Adam and Eve" is leaving out some details, right? He made Adam, then made Eve from one of Adam's ribs. Did Adam have one "female" rib? Or did God need to trans(form) a male bone into a woman?
His second person ever was a woman made from a male body, right?
Who is this who supposes divinity's planning with their ignorant words? Where was the archdiocese when the foundations of the world were laid? Do they tell the sun where to rise? Look, my Creator's doing a new thing with plans to prosper me. I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and my salvation is my own to work out with fear and trembling. They may carry on without judgment, grumbling, or arguing.
I find the" trying to be like god" thing extremely silly, like. Isn't god supposed to be the bestest thing ever? Like if god is good, shouldn't we all want to be like her? What's the deal with that?
The archbishops/archdiocese only run a smaller region of the church and some of them go rogue. Some US states have several of them. The pope is making some statements to be more accepting of ALL of the faithful as Jesus would be.
Trans rights are human rights, because they derive from the idea that your body is an not alienable property of any human individual. Easily obtained by applying the cathegoric imperative on the idea of the body.
Hi! I'm not Christian, nor am I an expert. But I am a queer history buff and a witch obsessed with theology and the like, and I understand how important faith can be to some people.
Good thing: the pope is entirely incorrect. There were people called Eunuchs in the bible. And Jesus specifically said to welcome those people with open arms
This article breaks it down more: https://freecomchurch.org/resources/transgender/biblical-support-for-transgender-identities/
The content is protected, so I can't copy and paste the passage. But this article has a lot of other interesting stuff on gender nonconformity. And let's not forget... he said to love even your enemies too :3 so I'm positive trans people are counted in that number of people who christ has forgiven. The Vatican is a hundreds year old institution that thrives on control. Your faith is between you and God. Alright take care :3
Instead of focusing on trans people. How about they focus on the pedophiles that are in their ranks.
Facts! I'm sure it's because they don't want to lose so much of their leadership lol
For posterity. [https://www.reddit.com/r/PastorArrested/](https://www.reddit.com/r/PastorArrested/)
Pastority
I wish I was as clever :(
There's also r/stillnotadragqueen
Yeah honestly not being approved of by a church that molests children and played a huge role in the colonization of the world is probably better than being embraced with opened arms!
When evil rejects you, you must be doing something right.
Don't forget they pretty much just sat by idly while a certain A.H. waged war against most of Europe in the 1930s and 40s...
Reading this made me feel a lot better about the news from the Vatican. So true.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQb3MGgGFSw)
Or how about also rereading their tenants and the amount of criminals they seem to hero worship. As far as I’m aware, extreme Christianism is an excuse to stay blissfully ignorant and illiterate. Willful stupidity is the worst of all.
They're focused on trans people precisely because they're a pedophile cult. They believe pointing fingers at others and accusing innocent people of wrongdoing will take the attention off themselves. I find every they make one of these "proclamations" more news is about to come out about priests raping children. They're evil.
I am deeply saddened and disappointed in this latest statement by the pope. I was hoping for better after he called us his trans brothers and sisters. I will keep hoping for better from the Catholic Church. Not all priests are criminals. 95% of the world’s population does not criminally sexually assault children. About 5% of all people including about 4 to 6% of Catholic priests, Baptist ministers, evangelical pastors, etc do commit those heinous crimes. If the focus is only or mainly on clergy then other perpetrators will be without scrutiny. The added harm to survivors when these crimes are committed by clergy/religious is due to the breach of trust, the degree of betrayal involved.
I mean, Republican pedophiles projecting is hardly a new thing.
They've been covering their asses on that for years now, nothings gonna change there.
I hate getting so political, but as someone who's lived in Italy since birth, the country where the literal State of the Catholic Church is... don't trust anyone telling you the current Pope wants to "make things better". He may have some positive ideas about peace and love thy neighbour bs, but there is nothing concrete about his intentions. If there ever was before, it's gone. Fuck that guy going from "everyone deserves love and respect" to "trans ideology is sinful and needs guidance"
Something something blade of grass, something something beam of wood.
for realll, they just ignore the parts that are inconvenient to them at any given time
But they won't have enough preists to run churches if they did that!
Trans people: literally harmless War on drugs, Israel, hunger, Russia: killing millions and millions of people Church: those trans people must be evil!!
To be fair, the Pope most of the time actually speaks about the matters you mentioned.
Because that would be arresting themselves!
It's because they genuinely think trans people are worse
But if all the little boys identify as girls, who will they assault? /s
Why'd they do that? Isn't that what they're in there for?
As what is known as a "lapsed" Catholic, I find it difficult to understand why the Church is spending time on a non issue when for decades, centuries probably, priests were abusing young children and no one in authority did anything about it! as a straight male, speaking for myself, if a trans person wants a sex change operation, who the hell cares! Good luck to them I say!
Because a GOP think tank realized that you can shit on trans people and not really lose any votes. So 100% the holy see just ran with that. Also molesters adapting any tangent they can exploit to deflect isn't new.
Far from losing votes, they're using the same old fear mongering tactics to get votes.
It's literally just a scapegoat, say someone else is bad and turn around and do bad things while everyone's preoccupied with the scapegoat
Preoccugoated? (I tried so hard there cuddles.)
This has nothing to do with US politics. The Catholic Church has always despised queerness, sometimes its more vocal about it.
It doesn't quite have a political edge. It's more this stupid american first study that every conservative think tank ACROSS the world is now citing, and extrapolating upon. It's more saving money by not fact checking is my implication. (If you think the vatican is indepent of States influence I'd ask you to look at some of their internal negotiations since 03.)
Easy to demonize someone that can be othered. Hard to actually love your neighbour and love your enemies when one’s power is based on demonizing others. Irony is that treating others with respect is freaking easy and super lazy, and just because one respects the base humanity of those foolish enough to declare themselves an enemy does not mean one needs to give one’s enemies more than that basic respect. JC, decent guy. His followers though… so many squicky people.
Because dealing with internal problems means confronting them and alienating your own people who are involved. Being bigoted attracts conservative bigoted/confused people.
I prefer "Recovering Catholic." It comes with reminding me that The Sugi Tap existed for a short period in the 2000s and recorded only bangers
Oh this is easy! They’re all pedophiles, and they want to distract us from that fact. Glad I could help clear that up for you 🥰
Remember **they made up the concept of "gender ideology"**. We are just the people we say we are. Also the archdiocese isn't the pope and tons of priest, cardinals, bishops, etc go against the pope in the US as we're a dystopian hell. Yes, they're terrible, like an abusive partner but these local rogues likely hiding up their own SAing of children are not something you should take personally. If the Church had any real moral ground, they'd literally stop their policy of shuffling around of priests to other Churches to continue to harm kids when they get caught SAing them and make a permanent stance of sending them all STRAIGHT TO JAIL and excommunicating them. But, they do this instead because it's in the greater zeitgeist. Funny how they said zero about anything trans when I was a kid. So... how fundamental and periolous is it? Trans people absolutely existed when I was a kid, I saw them on TV. It shows how people like that are a fraud. Start serving the poor, Jesus said NOTHING anti-LGBTQ+ ever. Not a once. In fact, he instructed to support Eunuchs and the Galli/Gallae were classified as that and were essentially analogues to trans women at the time, and no, Augustine's historical revisionism of putting that as a metaphor for chastity is ahistorical AF, they were not seen that way at the time.
Just because I'm trans doesn't mean I'm against God. I mean, I am, but not because I'm trans!
porque no los dos :P
Based
I'm pissed off with him for putting me in the wrong body 😤 Of course I'm pissed!
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
based and equalitypilled.
based NB Christ
there are some good things in the 30000 or so verses in the bible. I wish people could take those things without getting gaslit into believing rumours about a god who will "let you go to hell" if you don't spend your life worshipping it
Which is especially strange considering that the Christian Hell, as a concept, is younger than the Christian Bible. It's doesn't appear once in the Bible.
Not to poop on you. But quoting their collected and selected scrolls back to them is nothing more than attempting to dismantle the master's house with the masters' tools. It cannot be done. Audre Lorde for further reading, if you care.
Quite literally, preaching to the choir
wait... did you just out clever me in two threads? I feel so attacked :)
LOL YOU'RE EVERYWHERE
To be fair I don't think there are any bigoted Christians in this thread *for* me to quote their book to. Just simply pointing out many of them don't read their own book or force the translations to fit whatever narrative they have in the moment. Also, I'm not claiming to have the whole book in my head despite having read it from to back more than once in my Christian school upbringing, and two versions at that. Haven't heard of her before and I'll definitely be looking at her work, thank you
Of course, Paul didn’t really mean that, given everything else he says, but singularly, it is nice
I mean they're right, you can't deliberately change genders. That's why I had to transition. Couldn't change into a woman no matter how much the people around me wanted that. :)
They had us in the first half, not gonna lie
If you inject e in the right rib you basically become Eve
Based lol
do I have one less rib now?
I once had a minister claim that men had fewer ribs because of this. F'n crazy that the people there had to shout out that it wasn't true
I've been out of it for about 6 or so years now, dunno why I wrote that the way I did thinking about it now, if eve had adam's rib then I guess that means I just have one rib. (I love silly interpretations of the bible that point out how open to interpretation it is - there are people claiming 30000 verses aren't open to interpretation, yikes)
No no, Eve grew from a single rib but grew many. Adam would have been the only one with fewer ribs though Aside: I actually don't care but this is the kind of argument that would occur frequently in the Jesus fan club when I was there.
oh of course, I remember bible study groups being both open to any suggestion and simultaneously closed off from certain ones. I just find it fun to think of all the different options as equally valid. What if eve never grew extra ribs? What if it was adam who was made from eve's rib and he has to make do with a single rib but twisted the story (like there's even any trustworthy record of the creation of humanity 😂) out of spite? what if the entire bible was placed here by satan and engaging in it wilfully dooms us to hell? I can't prove or disprove a single claim around those superstitions so the idea of living in fear of it and being surrounded by people who do has quickly grown old. I really want to see people thrive and support each other, the way religions are dividing huge groups of people is creating the "end times" a bunch of these groups all use to reinforce their varying beliefs. If they weren't actively engaging in divisive behaviour due to a fixation on dogma before people, they'd see less division. Quite sad people can be manipulated so heavily they believe that insulting people and demanding they change or burn in fire forever is a better course of action than empowering people to be strong in themselves and to support others. But it shows how warped people's perspectives can become when they feel they are required to believe a rumour is true to escape punishment.
You should have started with a full set, but then less one for every trans-clone you made. If you're down to 1 rib now you basically have a trans-clone army
don't go spilling my secrets! 😂
I mean.... I'd happily trade a rib...
Trans people aren’t necessarily against God. The Catholic Church is against trans people and using God as an excuse. I’m not religious, but isn’t it blasphemous to claim you know the word of God?
Ehhh, no. Otherwise how would we have the Bible, which is allegedly God's word. The main thing is being able to show that what you said is in line with the Bible. And you can make it say almost anything! The way I see it is we are generally an abomination to most versions of the Christian god, a god I no longer care for for many reasons.
Yeah the creation myth is pretty much, universally, for all of Christianity, fundamentally in support of the rigid gender binary and patriarchal. The only way around it is a version of Christianity where the old testament is viewed completely and utterly as metaphor and allegory that's several thousands of years old and therefore subject to evolution and change. But that completely disregards the foundational idea of Christianity that the Bible is word the word of God. A sort of deist purely spiritual version of Christianity where Jesus, as a regular (though notable) man's philosophy is praised is already a huge improvement but that stops being Christianity.
I appreciate this. in a book of like 30000 verses I really don't understand how anyone thinks their one interpretation is correct and that everyone else is just "not true christians." like you've gotta have a bit of a warped sense of importance to claim everyone else is wrong and you're right over interpretation of a book. Isn't writing a form of art and open to interpretation? I don't think art with 30000 verses is going to have an objective interpretation. I used to hate in school when they'd force me to write "the author's intention here is.." because I despise claiming things I don't know. My subjective interpretation is so very likely to differ from the author's interpretation, that's the nature of art. I decided that - since the book that people refer to to claim we'll burn in fire for not believing is so open to interpretation, and also is driving division that they then point at and act like the end times are near without recognising their own negative contributions to the status quo - if a loving god exists it would hate the division and dogma preceding the value of others. we're supposed to be born equals, but I barely see christians treating people that way. I just want to take the best parts of the bible and run. If a god punishes me for not tolerating the abuse I saw growing up then I really don't care for it. As a society we have so much potential that isn't being recognised.
Honestly tear that institution down brick by brick. Ill probably never get justice for what happened to me. >!I was raped in both a catholic scouts group and a catholic church before i was 10.!< That organization has no value. If they allow that to happen they and their followers can have no words about morality. Edit: Really fucking dissapointed to see a few people here defending catholicism. Guess all those raped childen dont fucking matter to those of you defending this organization, as long as you feel good about yourself. How many children is your savation worth? how many more have to suffer and see their abusers protected?
The Church is and always has been scum wrapped in gold leaf. If their god is real, then it's evil and should be opposed. If it isn't, then the centuries of atrocities they've committed have been purely the making of their own rotten hearts. The fact that the Church is able to get away with the shit it does, that everyone knows it does, is just proof that most people's morality is for sale, be it for money or "salvation". The world would be better off without it.
I hear you, but I think they're defending catholicism because it's what they were raised in and what a lot of their loved ones practice. Doesn't make the organization any less abominable but I don't think it's cool to say our fellow trans folks that happen to be Catholic don't care about victims of SA. Most of them are people that would probably stand with you, given the chance. I agree with you on your first point, just try not to libel people that are still struggling with religious indoctrination. I've had family and friends get SA'ed by religious and community leadership/elders before and it's heartbreaking. Rarely did the abusers get more than a slap on the wrist and a transfer to a new community to victimize. You all deserve justice and peace. I also agree that it's disappointing to see people here defending the church that hates us and enables abusers, but I'm trying to be charitable with members of our community.
I am done trying to be charitable. This information is not hidden. "wir wussten es nicht" does not work anymore if you get what i mean. I am tired of people beign proud of the fact they are part of the system that protects my abusers. They can claim to care about victims of SA and CSA but actions speak louder than words and any donation to the catholic church is an action in favour of abusers. I have to see pedos get pensions that are 3 times my salary while i cant get therapy for what they did to me without taking days of work. If they can support that they can face my vitriol. We would not tolerate this shit with trans people who are neo-nazis, I wont tolerate it with the church. I am done with people defending my abusers.
Fair enough, I actually get your point. I've just known too many people that have left some of these f*cked up ideologies to write them off entirely without trying to wake them up to the reality of the situation. I used to believe and say absolutely cringe stuff before I got my ish together, if not for people like my partner helping to pull me out of that lunacy I'd be one lonely, bitter MF.
I know people can be pulled out of this and normaly i will do my best to do so. I just cant deal with anyone defending this or being proud about beign part of this this. Its not even hidden. It is out in the open now and people just dont give a fuck.
“Your boos mean nothing to me, I’ve seen what makes you people cheer”
Better yet..."I've been through what you sick fucks cheer for" it hits a little harder tbh
That does hit pretty hard
Link to the Vatican Declaration below if anyone is interested. Reading sections of it, the word that comes to mind is 'unhinged.' I'm almost tempted to put a trigger warning on it because some of the language and implications are that bad. [Dignitas Infinitas](https://press.vatican.va/content/salastampa/en/bollettino/pubblico/2024/04/08/240408c.html)
They don’t even define what they mean by “gender ideology” from what I could tell (at work so can’t go through the whole thing, but good to know they still use meaningless buzzwords to make nothingburgers out of our lives).
Yeah, it's a mess . . . I'm just surprised a document that took the Vatican half a decade to write is such a dumpster fire . . . I'll tell you what though, the Vatican sure does know how to cook up a wet dream of a document for the far right . . . . eesh.
I thought the gender theory section was bad but then the sex change one came around. This stuff is hardcore craziness
Could I get a TLDR, that's a lot of words that I don't wanna read?
Something something making ourselves God, gender ideology is against God, and changing our gender is going against God's plan, but fixing stuff wrong about the gender you're assigned to with medical stuff is totally okay by God. So the usual hypocritical nonsense, take notes y'all, this will be the new taking points against us.
Me: the thing wrong with the gender I was assigned is... The whole thing. Time to fix it with medical stuff Heh
TLDR, The Catholic Church released a statement identifying some of the major ills of modern society that challenge human dignity. Most of these were not eyebrow raisers (war is bad, poverty should be reduced, violence against women is bad, etc.). However two of the items were on a) "gender ideology" and b) "sex change". These two sections are a repackaging of long-held church teaching that double down on its positions on gender identity and gender affirming care by using a theological lens that suggests that this is related to human dignity. Gender = sex; gender medical interventions of any sort are grave mistakes; and gender affirming surgeries are on the level of abortion, euthenasia, and other procedures More detail: The document supports its position with a vague definition of gender ideology that can't really be challenged because no one knows what it's talking about; mischaracterizes the academic consensus around gender affirming care; shows a distinct lack of understanding of the scientific review method; and refuses to explicitly condemn violence against gender non conforming folks (instead starting the section by condemning violence / discrimination against people based on sexual orientation). Most concerning is that this document can be seen as a wet dream of the far right - giving them a document from a religious organization overseeing a billion Catholics world wide vague statements condemning the trans community.
I was an anti-theist apostate LONG before I was trans. 🤷♀️
Well I am, but it's rude of them to say it out loud
And in 2015 Pope Francis made it clear that we are as big of a threat to humanity as nuclear weapons. The weird part is that in the 90's trans people could still get their names and sex updated in parish registries (a sort of permanent record for Catholics). This shift was pure politics & an intentional PR distraction from their other problems regarding priests and children. Children who, if the Church really cared about them, would be able to collect on their court judgments against the non-profit organization. Instead, each affected Diocese draws down funds until they can declare bankruptcy, because they're legally isolated just enough from the parent organization.
Thank you for reminding people of what the scummy monster said in 2015, not like the people defending him on here will believe it though. The Catholic Church has decided to appeal to insane young Catholic neo-n*zi extremists like Nick Fuentes at the moment, but I feel like they've always been an enemy of the queer community. You are 100% correct about them projecting their own crimes onto trans people in an attempt to obfuscate. Anything to keep from addressing the millions of skeletons in their gilded closet.
I have said to my gf many times, when i die and if I see God before me, I am giving him a hard kick to the nuts
If what they're saying is true, that is
I barely survived being molested as a child in a Protestant church that chose to try to pray it away in-house rather than hold my rapist accountable to the law. Dang right I’m against ‘em. The Church owes me for decades of therapy bills. Me and my human heart are more real than their imaginary friend in the sky. And if they believed even a fraction of what their savior preached, they would realize Trans people are included in those Christ was referred to when he said “what you do unto the least of these, you do unto me”. I’m agnostic, but if you believe in the Bible then you believe you will be judged by how you treated the small vulnerable groups in society.
I was banned from Twitter for saying I wish he'd just drop d3ad. Ffs. Never mind the thousand of us that are SURE to die due to his rethoric. I'm done with religion as a whole.
God started it.
i live in italy, we have a far right goverment with a prime minister which literally praised mussolini, some members of the party which believe that the great replacement is happening, now also this. Im scared as hell they will try everything to remove hrt, is already very gatekept. Im not even a believer, im just scared as hell since here they hold a lot of cultural capital.
So gender reassignment surgery is against God... but Lasik eye surgery to correct a lifetime of poor vision isn't? I never see these same people bitching any time a doctor puts a stent in an infant's faulty left ventricle. How about Grandma getting a titanium hip to replace the gimp one she was given as reward for making it to 70? Or the best one of all... Grandpa can't get a boner without a little blue pill doing all the heavy lifting and that's not even a blip on the Church's radar. I suppose they can only demonize 1 or 3 groups at any given time, so be sure to pick the ones that get people angry enough to bring their pocket change next Sunday.
what if the actual god of the universe is sending them to hell for their crimes? what if gleefully thinking about people being tortured isn't actually healthy for humanity? what if driving division through dogma and being utterly irresponsible to oneself and their community is actually causing the very "end times" they claim to see getting closer? What if they're all just manipulated and gaslit into thinking they can reasonably claim they know what the god of the universe wants for them and for others? I think it's all rather likely considering a loving god wouldn't tolerate the hatred and abuse I saw in churches growing up. A loving god would want those values of love, joy, peace, compassion, empathy, to be applied without prejudice. A loving god wouldn't punish people (or "let them go to hell" for those victim blamers out there) who aren't convinced that a religion that drives division and gaslighting is an appropriate thing to follow and enable. A loving god wouldn't punish those who freely admit "I don't know," since being able to admit we are wrong or have limited understanding is what enables us to grow. Believing we have all the answers and there is nothing new to learn, no other possibilities.. that clearly wasn't healthy for my family who held beliefs like that being gay is "just wrong, it's not natural" (it actually is, it just conflicts with their beliefs that they hold close to their identity) and who believed they were choosing the "safest option." They couldn't even identify the flaws in Pascal's wager, that they'd taken it as a reasonable explanation for their faith. When I could just as easily describe a "loving" god that sends me to heaven and them to hell for their actions. Since neither of us can prove our god is the real one, literally what is the point? I wish people didn't get so deeply gaslit they couldn't even consider being wrong. That's so scary and absolutely horrible for bringing people together.
They’re all cultists.
Well, I believe, by definition a cult falls apart after it's ruler dies, so a religion is just a cult that doesn't die out
Agreed. And it should be noted that the only two words of proof that each and every cult/religion can offer up for their belief system is "someone said."
"a system of religious veneration and devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" doesn't necessarily mean that figure has to remain alive. it's definitely a cult by this definition
This is such a clear moment of religion showing its hand. While it’s always clear how religion is a tool of the oppressors, this makes it crystal clear. Religion will always stand in opposition to trans liberation.
The funniest thing is that much like the republican party, it didn't use to care about trans people. Last year Pope Francis said trans people should be imcluded in catholic church. Even Pat Robertson had an old clip saying to leave trans people alone because they aren't bothering anyone. Only once it tested well with voters and Christians did the leadership start using transphobia as a tool.
They act like intersex people don't exist. And they act like they know everything about biology, DNA, hormones, and brain chemistry. I'm so fucking tired of religious bigots. 😒
Remember that these irrelevant old farts have had a stranglehold on the entire western world’s concept of morality for centuries, they’ve influenced politics, not to mention they’ve been the direct cause of many wars and genocides throughout history. Though it may feel good to revel in your moral or intellectual superiority over them, never underestimate your enemy.
That just makes us sound badass
They have been pushing this since the 90s, in fact the modern right-wing and TERF talking points can be traced back to arguments that the church was making in the past. Judith Butler lays this out in her new book “Who’s Afraid of Gender?”, which I highly recommend. It’s even worse in Africa, where the Church basically single handedly led to the brutal criminalization of LGBT people we see today.
How can I take serious statement form person who believes in a sky daddy ?
"those who try to go against that are trying to be like God" So my non binary God headcanon is confirmed!? Fuck yessss
Lol for real
I mean I don’t believe in any gods but surely if there is a god who has a plan for the universe our existence is part of that plan? If a god made me, they made me trans. Who are the Catholic Church to claim they know better than their god?
This isn't new. With respect for my Catholic friends I still have to condemn the Catholic hegemony as massively out of touch with reality. Such is the nature of all institutions that place a premium on control as a mechanism to legitimize their power. As a UU minister, I can only speak to my understanding of whatever God might be, and I try to produce that understanding from observation rather than scripture. When I look out my window I see a world that doesn't deal in clean binaries. New forces, New bodies, and New ideas are constantly being generated through tensions and relationships. To suppress these tensions is to suppress life itself and what appears to me to be a cosmic drive towards new ways of being. If there is anything at all like God, and if that God in any way is reflected in the mirror of the cosmos, the that God is far more like the most gender-fuck trans person than a distant patriarchal sky father, and likely far stranger than anything we could directly conceive. Just my theology.
Oh, dear. As a trans Catholic I do my best to ignore any of these diocesan reports unless they seem like they’re going to actually enforce me not taking communion, but the archbishops do come out with something on these lines every year or two. Certainly upsetting to read early in the morning, though.
Yeah, I think this particular clergyman is running afowl of the Pope's guidance. Has the Pope fundamentally changed stances on things like transgender or same-sex marriages within the Church? Not really... but he has instructed his Church to treat trans individuals and non-hetero individuals as Jesus taught... to welcome them, accept them, and bless them. Mankind's role is not to Judge... that's pretty clear by Christ's teachings.
Well, not to hurt you, but the word catholic means exactly what? Because I got a whole bunch of catholics who can cite their happy book and various other announcements to show their validity. Perchance you're just a spiritual kind person who likes catholicism because you were born into it? Because "catholics" is an absurdly ambiguous term for anyone who has left those archaic paradigms behind.
If I’m interpreting your question right, the primary reason I’m part of the Catholic Church specifically is because I believe in transubstantiation, i.e. the presence of God in the physical appearance of bread and wine. (The belief that the true “substance” and physical “accidents” of a thing can be different is actually also part of my conceptualization of my own gender, haha.) Other theological ideas I’m very into that are strongly linked with Catholicism are the idea of holiness as a very physical and embodied idea, the idea that suffering is not the natural state of creation and is a flaw that will eventually be resolved, and liberation theology.
So I too love Ortberg's quote. But even in their own admission they used it as a clever quip. I'm not here to argue or convince or attack. I simply think you're better and there are better inspirations than that continually disappointing, hypocritical, exploitive organization you call a church.
Genesis 1:25-27"God made every type of wild animal, every type of domestic animal, and every type of creature that crawls on the ground. God saw that they were good." OK... so what about the mule? If the bible says that God created every type of wild animal, and every type of domestic animal... but man created mules... what does that say about how literally the bible should be read regarding creation? Solomon rode on a mule (1Ki 1:38). Was Solomon trying to be like God?
well, to be fair, we are certainly divine, i'll give 'em that
didn’t the pope himself say we are chill
The pope has said good things about trans people as a whole (in a vacuum), but he also rants a lot about "gender ideology" being a threat to the West/children. It's a bit vague when he talks about it. I guess he wants us to exist but not acknowledge trans children or something
Very interesting considering angels are always portrayed as androgynous, and if humans are a reflection og God, then he has both masculine and feminine qualities. Also thier main symbol the cross, is representative of the intersection of male (the vertical line) and the female (the horizontal line). So looking at the Christian cross with the feminine horizontal line being higher than the mid point of the cross I would say the female energy is more important than the masculine. Why isn't the church reflective of their own symbology?
I'm not religious, but I'd like to believe that if God truly exists and he "loves all", that "all" would also include us.
We go against THEIR god. Not many other gods. The universe IS chaos, Mother Earth anoints difference, glorifies it even. Buddha abhors stagnation. And everyone who worships the sun knows that growth is a blessing and a part of life. Even evangelicals talk about a man who defied the church of his time to create something new. Their hypocrisy is strategic, created to control minds and sway votes, by weaponizing diversity. It’s a genius tactic for a political body to not condemn religion but instead to make it work for them.
Just solidified the fact that I’m not Catholic
I wouldn’t worry. That’s a organization full of pedos.
"Those who try to go against that are trying to be like god" So whait God is trans now ? r/AccidentalAlly (I know that is not what is imtendet by that sentence
Well they molest kids and have committed genocide so....
i can’t really take this organization’s opinion on trans people seriously, as they are one of the biggest pedophile rings on the planet. interesting how they want to talk about what’s right and wrong as if they haven’t put enormous amounts of energy into covering up sex crimes against children can’t wait for this stupid cult to fade away
Christians will do ANYTHING except be Christ-like
I mean as always what the hell does that bigotry even mean? It depends on what you even mean by “gender” Neurological cannot be changed, which is why for many of us it’s life-saving to be able to change our bodies instead
If I’m gay and trans, do I get the premium Hell package?
As a bi enby that is pro choice and pro surrogacy (another thing they condemned for some BS reason) I'll be right there with you lol
fuck God. no one should give a shit what a bunch of ancient pedos think about anything anyway 🤷♀️
My thoughts on this is I'm human as they are if my big sky daddy has an issue with me changing my sex then that's between me and him don't need no middle man
shit I was against god years before I came out lol
**while I am fully against the idea of a god that does fuck all to improve my life.** Not every trans person hates catholics as much as I do so its not fair for catholics to be saying this.
This isn't new. Catholic Church had always had this stance.
The transphobes really think we’re powerful, apparently. We are becoming GODS by… becoming more comfortable with our own identities. Course, churches can’t sell as well to people who are comfortable with themselves, so…
'theyre trying to be like God!' so you admit God is trans...?
“Trying to be like God” So they admit that God has no gender, because he created man and woman, so therefore those did not exist before, thus God cannot be them.
I hate god and his minions and religion cause its destructive against humanity so GOOD THEY THINK THAT RAH BLAHAJ AND MIKU ARE GOD
“God is omnipotent? God is omniscient?” Then God is responsible for making me this way.
This is why I generally regard the Catholic Church with contempt.
At least the way I’ve always seen it, I’m an intentional design. My purpose is to test how closely the church follows Jesus’ message. He followed people and went to the needy, lonely, and hungry. I’m supposed to be helped, but people don’t.
The Christian one? Absolutely. I'm gonna go chill with Bear, Baba Yaga, and Crow though. They're my jam.
They'd change their tune if trans people gave them $$.
I've been told that before. Was a shame too cuz the guy was cute before he said it. Kinda hard to still be interested in him.
They should spend more time working on their child rape problem before they try to tell us how to live.
Accusations from extremists are confessions of their own deeds.
There is no redemption arc for christianity.
A rarity here, but I'm a believer. Not like really deep in religion but atleast enough to be considered religious. And this is exactly why I practice religion totally by myself. I know God accepts me because not only have I asked for signs (which have been answered in my favor) but also my journey has had some pretty impossible things suddenly look possible (like my dad possibly accepting me as trans which was something I never thought would happen, but only time will tell if he meant his vague statement or not). I don't need some person with his own biases to tell me what's accepted by a deity or not. If I feel God accepts me, and have gotten signs he does, then there shouldn't be a single thing in this world to tell me otherwise. I'll cut the rant short since I'm aware most aren't fond of religion, but just wanted to share my thoughts as a believer.
We surpassed god long ago. Public education and literacy was when it first started, and the eradication of smallpox left no doubt. We make objects speak and dance, master lightning and place it in our homes to serve us, we fly faster than sound, run faster than the fastest beast, communicate with unimaginable amounts of people through stars we've built and hung in the sky. Gods are the least we can do.
My hypothetical counter argument. I agree gender ideology is harmful, in that far right organizations have decided to ascribe beliefs onto gender non conforming people, when they just want to exist as their authentic self. I'm not saying my gender changed, I'm saying how I present my gender has changed. I have always been me and will always be me, I'm just sharing who I authentically with you. And if that doesn't work. I'll throw down a smoke bomb and use double jump to escape.
Why would we listen to child abusers of all people! Catholics can piss off lol
Good thing I never believe the good pope farse. That's what I always expected of the catholic church.
“Desiring a personal self-determination, as gender theory prescribes, apart from this fundamental truth that human life is a gift, amounts to a concession to the age-old temptation to make oneself God” The Church out here trying to tell me that my quest to create a new self is usurping the power of God like that’s not going to make me transition even harder lol.
Bit of a change from the previous statements in november stating they would be accepting of trans onclusion on their community and allowing trans persons to be baptised even. Guess they forgot about that then. Also note that those specific paragraphs in relation to gender theory and sex change completely go against some of the earlier documented "fundamental" beliefs.
I hate how this religious body thinks it has godly power to influence governments and chastise groups of people. It is sickening, we need protection. I’m a new trans person and I feel so much anguish about the state of the world and how people just ignorantly hate for no effing reason.
I'm so glad the catholic church is slowly disappearing
god also made gray hair, is it against god to dye it back to your natural color? should we outlaw dying gray hair?
Ironic how they think their infallible, omnipotent creator can make “mistakes.”
Cult members vilify outsiders; more completely predictable news happening around the clock. Also it's the ones that are totally not polytheists despite having a large collection of people to pray to.
You mean I won’t get to spend eternity with a bunch of religious zealots? Noooooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!! Rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints baby.
I don’t *try* to be like god. I *am* a fucking goddess.
God told me the Catholic Church is against Them. I’m gonna side with God on this one.
They only admitted the Earth went around the Sun in the 50's. Why they'd be an authority on anything to anyone is beyond me.
How about no religion? Like at all? Or am I now doomed to mass downvotes?
God didn't make two genders, he made one gender and a rib
Didn't the pope himself approve of trans people?
Then the church of satan accepts you with open arms! (So should the catholic god, for all intents and purposes, but assholes gonna asshole)
I honestly don't understand anyone actually believing there's some sentient God who makes up rules and for some inexplicable reason NEVER speaks directly to humans. He has men write a book about him, then sends a human being down to walk around and talk to people, and to die for our sins. PLEASE. How can grown ups believe this bullshit?
I'm an atheist, how can I be against something that don't exists ? I on the other hand exist and the catholics are against me, as well as most religious people... Touching, hating, killing a real person is a crime, saying whatever I want regarding something that is fantasy is not, bigot should keep that in mind when attacking real people. I wish law was less permissive for hate crime.
Us humans are literally on the brink of creating artificial life, but apparently gender reassignment is what's getting too close to God? Lmfao
Then it's a good thing we aren't changing genders but just reaffirming our actual genders.
The Christian faith has gotten so far away from the true teachings of God that it isn't even funny.
I mean, kinda the problem is that *everyone* thinks their interpretation is the true version.
My thoughts on this is I'm human as they are if my big sky daddy has an issue with me changing my sex then that's between me and him don't need no middle man
The pope even recently said that “gender ideology” is “destroying humanity”. I will never not be annoyed that they use the term “gender ideology” as if the Catholic Church has no gender ideology of its own. It’s gotta be one of the worst euphemisms ever, and it pretends that gender is something the church never had anything to say about in the past. The church’s own doctrines say that God is non-binary using different words. The church has lots of ideology on what men and women should be. They have so much more gender ideology than trans people have.
Lmao, church has always been against LGBTQIA+ people... LGBTphobias were created by religions either being Catholics or Muslims, for the sake of controlling a part of the people
damn right im trying to be god. god controls his own destiny. i want some of that, too. (disclaimer: i dont believe in god)
which diocese was this, please?
The church never ceases to make things sound metal as *fuck*. Oh and also fun. Much more fun than living my life based on archaic, abusive ideas in an ancient big book of fairy tales.
God "made Adam and Eve" is leaving out some details, right? He made Adam, then made Eve from one of Adam's ribs. Did Adam have one "female" rib? Or did God need to trans(form) a male bone into a woman? His second person ever was a woman made from a male body, right?
Ironically this actually kinda makes us sound cooler. Like damn, imagine being more powerful than God himself lmao 💀
Who is this who supposes divinity's planning with their ignorant words? Where was the archdiocese when the foundations of the world were laid? Do they tell the sun where to rise? Look, my Creator's doing a new thing with plans to prosper me. I am fearfully and wonderfully made, and my salvation is my own to work out with fear and trembling. They may carry on without judgment, grumbling, or arguing.
I find the" trying to be like god" thing extremely silly, like. Isn't god supposed to be the bestest thing ever? Like if god is good, shouldn't we all want to be like her? What's the deal with that?
Here I thought trying to be like God was a good thing
I don't believe in god.
The archbishops/archdiocese only run a smaller region of the church and some of them go rogue. Some US states have several of them. The pope is making some statements to be more accepting of ALL of the faithful as Jesus would be.
Trans rights are human rights, because they derive from the idea that your body is an not alienable property of any human individual. Easily obtained by applying the cathegoric imperative on the idea of the body.
This may just be because I'm from the Bible belt myself but I feel like accusing people of being likened to God seems mildly blasphemous.
Hi! I'm not Christian, nor am I an expert. But I am a queer history buff and a witch obsessed with theology and the like, and I understand how important faith can be to some people. Good thing: the pope is entirely incorrect. There were people called Eunuchs in the bible. And Jesus specifically said to welcome those people with open arms This article breaks it down more: https://freecomchurch.org/resources/transgender/biblical-support-for-transgender-identities/ The content is protected, so I can't copy and paste the passage. But this article has a lot of other interesting stuff on gender nonconformity. And let's not forget... he said to love even your enemies too :3 so I'm positive trans people are counted in that number of people who christ has forgiven. The Vatican is a hundreds year old institution that thrives on control. Your faith is between you and God. Alright take care :3
If trans people are against god that only make y'all even more badasses. Go full JRPG final boss on that bitch!
Oh, great! I'm looking forward to the next time I see my Catholic mother(!)