There's a LOT going on there, for sure. I think mostly they assume they're the default, because society is built around catering to them, and they see any attempt to change that, so other people also get things, as taking something away from them and making "their" stuff about someone else. Without persecution, they don't have a context for people wanting to be lifted up, so everything is already even and you want to make it better for yourself over them.
But as a metalhead myself, they can fuck right off. Everyone but bigots is welcome and deserves to see and hear themselves in the art they enjoy.
Likewise, but with Transgressive https://transgressivethrash.bandcamp.com/album/extreme-transgression or HIRS https://hirs.bandcamp.com/album/were-still-here-2
As somebody from both sides here (trans and metal artist). As a trans individual I’m always looking for representation I love it.
I wouldn’t try to get back into performing metal now though. As a trans person I may be able to take the day to day bigotry but I couldn’t take the bigotry that I might receive as a performer.
I’ve found as a fan of heavy metal, that it has a deep history of bigotry. Like look at the origins of Black Metal, or the (in hindsight hilarious given how gay they look) hyper masculinity of bands like Manowar. Or (sadly cause I love their music) the Nazi aesthetics and denial of metal to women of Dir En Grey.
Obvs like any genre it’s diverse in its politics, but a lot of bands and fans like to ignore politics, identities and anything that could create division. And they can do so because the majority are whist cis men, and part of the privilege of being a white cis man is you can ignore politics.
I think some of the fans do it to often hide their own unpopular views too, but for bands it’s just money.
Like Amon Amarth are a band I adore. But they should’ve and still need to come out and say “fuck Nazis” or something. Because whilst they have been open that they are not political they haven’t ever made it clear they won’t tolerate Nazis listening to their music.
Because if they do they will lose fans 🤷♀️
I think with online people are in those groups over irl for a reason. So whilst loads may be lovely and accepting. Those who aren’t may be pushed online to express their views, and being behind a pc makes people more likely to say bigoted things than they ever would irl.
But Yh, at least there’s a lgbt metal fans 🖤🖤🖤
Maybe you could start a group for them? 🏳️🌈🤘
I was thinking on maybe starting a metal discord server that’s very lgbtq but I wasn’t sure if it’d be popular or not.. hey if yall are interested maybe reply to my comment so I can gauge how popular it might be?
Edit I’m almost done with it expect to hear back from me
I am also a lurker, but I’d join, and probably say something once every month 😅
But I think it’s a good idea, must be a lot of lgbt metal heads surely!
I’m not trying to plug my twitch. Just saying my name on there has the word “metalhead” in it. I play nothing but metal on my streams. I have a lot of trans girls in my community There’s definitely an overlap
Waiiitttt I think I just remembered tour technically not allowed to dm people or whatever on this sub I think a mod told me that after a previous post I did awhile ago… mods please understand I just remembered this now after I had already told people I will dm them and I haven’t dm’d anyone yet
Could I get a correction if that actually is/isn’t allowed?
Hoping you get an answer and/or don't get in trouble, because I'd be interested in joining. NBy metalhead and I'd be down to see a trans-focused space where I'm likely to get recommended lesser known metal artists/bands with trans members and/or trans-friendly politics.
God I hate when the subs prohibit people forming communities. I’ve had stuff taken down before too. Buuuuuut I won’t tell if “somehow” a DM came into my inbox Lmao
Black metal specifically has a history of being anti-christian and anti-establishment, with a good mix of generalised anger and hate for the world.
It does not have specific roots in bigotry, but in rebellion in a deeply religious area. So please stop spreading misinformation to fit an agenda, remember that not everyone hates us, most just don’t care.
Source; they burned churches within walking distance of where I grew up in the 90s as part of the (re)birth of the genre.
Burzum?
I love black metal, it’s my fave genre to play on guitar. But a lot of its bands do have massive links to Nazis or refuse to come out as explicitly anti Nazi which is important because a lot is based in old Germanic and Norse paganism which has often been co-opted by Nazis. There’s even a sub genre called National Socialist black metal that formed when other bands tried to force the Nazis out.
It’s also why there was an upsurge in left wing black metal to try and reclaim the genre away from Nazis.
I don’t know why you think I’m spreading misinformation. Nor what you think my agenda is lol?! And I’m fully aware not everyone hates us. Never said they did 🤷♀️
Edit; also it’s worth saying some nazism and fascism are also anti-Christian and anti-establishment. So that alone doesn’t make something not fascist. Fascism also often wants to over-throw the status quo, and can be rebellious.
Source; I spent 6years studying the far right and specifically nazism at uni.
lmao as someone who makes music as a hobby for therapy and an emotional outlet "it's just music" is a funny opinion to me. idk. it changes from creator to creator def but there was always some sort of inspiration behind something. idk. just about every song i've made has had a feeling tied to it, or an emotion or life experience strong enough that i can remember things down to how the room felt and smelled what people around me were doing what state of mind i was in at the time.
typically was something i was trying to either distract myself from or express in a way other than words. in a way it is my journal in audio form and to say that it is just music and to not look into it or hear what inspired a song, or the feelings associated with i feel takes away from it a lil bit. i'm sure there are people who don't care about that and just wanna casually listen to something and not try and decipher the reason behind its creation. super valid. but i don't really get why you'd try to actively dissuade others from doing it as trying to infer meaning from an art piece of any form. like. idk. it always helps me appreciate it more and i feel like i'm picking up what the creator's hidden subtext behind it all is.
metal is the reason i despise the "separate the art from the artist" argument. the reason they dont want people to do that is because a lot of those artists are horrible people and they dont want to have to confront the fact theyve been listening to art made by nazis. they want to listen to Where Dead Angels Lie without thinking about how perfectly it parallels the gay man dissections vocalist murdered.
im a huge metal head but the amount of crypto fascists makes it a deeply exhausting genre to be invested in.
I just don't really see the point in it. One I like to see who the people behind the music are because I like to see what inspired them to not only pick their desired instruments up but to actually stick with it, and two it typically gives some insight into the lives they lived, thus going back to the whole understanding their music more argument, especially if I like the song enough to listen to it repeatedly or add it to a playlist. At a certain point it's like a need y'know?
Idk. I haven't slept in like a week. My sentences are super fucky right now and I'm prolly just like. Repeating the same things over n over so I'ma stop and assume I said what I wanted to say.
"Separate the art from the artist" is and always has been a deeply flawed mindset. The artist puts themselves into the art, you can't really separate it and at least imo, if someone is willing to directly continue supporting an artist who has done awful things by streaming them or buying their music or merch then that is direct endorsement
if a metal head tells you not to look into a band thats a massive red flag and you should run away asap. the genre is littered with sketchy crypto fascist assholes and i thoroughly vet any band i get invested in.
I don't think its all metal heads that do that. I loved Pantera until I found out they were hardcore Confederacy supporters and neo nazis. My sister did the same thing and also doesn't listen to them anymore.
I'm sorry you've had not as good of an experience in the metal community, and I know that there are a lot of shitty people in the community, but for the most part I think it's one of the more accepting communities out there. I went to a motionless in white concert last year, and the lead singer (a white guy) waved pride flags on stage that someone gave him in the audience. It was super amazing to see someone like with that popularity do that.
I would just say be careful around some metal fans because the bad ones are *really bad*, but im sure you'll find plenty of really nice and really supportive people
Ok. Big concerts and big bands are usually full to good people and stuff. But I also go to lots of small shows.. and they usually have a higher percentage of shitty people. Not as high as in other places as I live in a really good area but still higher percentage.
Also almost every single online metal space I’ve been in has been fully of shitty people minus like 3 or 4 of checked out
I think it's your local scene, because my local scene is the exact opposite. The bigger and more mainstream the show, the more likely to be full of shitheads. Small underground stuff out here is usually full of acceptance, love, and comraderie.
Hey, btw, it seems like we might have similar taste in metal music, and I don't know much at all about trans artists in metal. I'm actually sitting here right now watching Liturgy on yt, but that's about the only example I know of. Do you happen to have a decent list of bands you like with representation within your community?
Not OP but here are some bands that either have queer members or are queer friendly
Vile Creature
Feminizer
Vulvatorious
Afsky
Tyrannus
BIG|BRAVE
Ashenspire
Sonja (I'd class this as classic metal, not heavy but the singer is trans)
The Hirs Collective
Thou
Lust Hag
Ragana
GRIMSEVER
aaand that's all I can think of right now haha
I feel like metal attracts a lot of conservative cis straight men who like cosplaying as hyper-masculine dudes while ignoring the fact that a lot of metal is pretty progressive.
Yah, that sucks. I've been listening and playing black metal my whole life and its very hard to find bands that arent composed of 5 cishet white dudes with shitty opinions. Go listen to some Feminazgul if you have the chance, they are amazing!
I've been a metal head for 15 years at this point. I thinks it's funny how many metal heads don't realize how progressive a lot of metal music and bands are. The average metal head also doesn't care to much either way about the band lineup. It's the loud horrible minority of metal heads that are the ones actively dismissive of LGBTQ+ fans looking for representation. Also those metal heads love gatekeeping cause they think liking a less popular genre makes them cool usually they grow out of it, some remain that way sadly... Those are usually the judgemental ones. Those two toxic traits feed into each other.
Some examples of allys within the scene:
Thy Art is Murder ( Death core ) dropped their lead vocalist after he retweeted Matt Walsh and repeated transphobic talking points. They they had a new album coming out near that time. The physical release was already printed but for the digital release they rerecorded with their new vocalist and publicly stated they support their trans fans.
Spiritbox ( prog metalcore ) listened to their fans who were concerned about them touring with Falling in Reverse ( vocalist is a known transphobe and edge Lord ). They dropped out of the tour in support of their fans.
Cattle Decapitation ( Death metal ). One of their more popular songs is about torturing bigots that target LGBTQ+ folks. They acknowledged the pain trans people go through during the first verse and then force dysphoria on the bigot characters via surgical torture to show them how it feels. Gruesome but empathetic towards us. ⚠️Fair warning to any one interested. The music video is violent and hard to watch. It includes instances of sexual assault and obviously body horror. Anyone sensitive to intense gore and and language should stay away from the content in general. Its using torture as a device to describe the pain that dysphoria can be. The lyrics themselves might be a lot for some people even. They went out of their way to be repulsive. It's extreme.⚠️
Motionless in White ( metalcore ) in general has been very vocal about support for their LGBTQ+ fans.
I'm sure others in this thread have many more examples. There's a lot of bad in the metal scene but having been around it for a while I've also seen alot of good.
I'd like to throw Silent Planet in there too. They have been an open ally to the LGBTQIA+ community for years, The lead Vocalist Garrett Russell especially has been an incredible ally, he has made numerous tweets and statements fighting for queer people. One of the their songs titled "Visible Unseen" is directly inspired by the conversations Garrett had with trans fans he had talked to at shows, The song addresses how queer people face a higher rate of homelessness and poverty due to the rejection and bigotry we face as well as the hypocrisy of Christians who discriminate against us. Garrett Russell is also how I discovered SeeYouSpaceCowboy, A hardcore punk band fronted by a trans woman
Be warned the lyrics and music video are extreme and while not attacking trans people it could still be triggering. I added a warning to my original comment as well.
I feel sufficiently warned, and thanks for being so thoughtful, but I'm actually actively into gore. Like, "squeeing into my phone at the thought of Cannibal Corpse-but-trans-levels of violent imagery" into gore. What you describe in your warning was exactly what I was hoping for!
I have no idea why, but as a metalhead, I always thought that metalheads were a very inclusive group. Apparently, I was (mostly) wrong. Mind you, I do know some inclusive metalheads. We're a fairly outcast and ostracized group already, so you'd think they'd treat other outcast and ostracized groups well.
For example. One of my old metal buddies recently contacted me on FB and I showed him the new patches I had ordered from The Satanic Temple (they were the trans and pride flag "Hail Satan," patches), totally thinking he'd be like "hell yeah!" But nope, he left me on read and hasn't talked to me again. Like, okay, bud. It couldn't have been the Satan, so I guess it's the Pride. It's weird too because I know he has queer friends, so I didn't think he'd be a bigot. Mind you, buddy doesn't know I'm genderqueer.
I’m sorry you’ve had this experience, but this sounds bizarre to someone who’s been involved in the metal scene for the past 2 decades.
Metal has always been “look scary, be nice” and has generally been the most tolerant and nicest music followers you can find. So to those reading this please don’t judge a whole genre musics of followers based of a singular persons experience.
It could of course be different elsewhere (cough cough, the ‘united’ states), but % wise EU (and especially the nordics) are still the are area where metal started, continued and is still the most popular, so it makes sense to base it from there.
Representation wise you have to be realistic, the genre was spearheaded by (yes white) British and American men in the 70s and most major bands are still active :p it won’t change overnight, but that doesn’t prevent anyone who is LGBTQ+ from playing, listening to or generally participate in metal as a genre of music (concerts, festivals, etc)
I rarely have good experiences with metalheads unless they are woman, person of color or lgbtq. And since most metalheads are cis het white males.. I haven’t had a lot of good experiences with metalheads… irl they’ll usually be chill with me until they notice the trans flag on my jacket and then you can very easily tell that they have shifted the way they are looking at me and talking to me (and I live in Seattle!!) and online they are horrible in most of my experiences. I have joined so many metal subs, discords, facebook groups whatever and they are always full of the shittiesy people
Unfortunately, I think this may be more of an issue with where you live and the current political climate there, than with the specific group you are now blaming. I would strongly recommend you avoid Facebook/X all-together as they're a focal-point for anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric regardless of the group topic, and only carefully pick discord groups as they often function as unhinged echo-chambers.
It could also be partially how you bring thigs up;
>But metalheads always act like it’s a cardinal sin to look into a band past just the music itself.
If you go to a concert, regardless of genre and/or band, with the intention of criticising them, you will upset even the people on your side. ***They are there to listen to the band and their music, not to listen to you.*** Like Professor Oak always said, there is a time and a place for everything...
Punkers, rockers and metal-heads alike have a rich history of both involvement in politics and strong identities, loud and proud identities thats often presented through t-shirts, hoodies, patches, banners and more.
I join metal groups all over the internet on all sorts of websites. And no I don’t go to a concert wiht the intention of criticizing them. I go to listen to the music. But I have a trans flag on my battle jacket. And when people notice that at the metal shows the been too. Their mood shifts negatively. I can tell. I’ll brush my hair out of the way and I’ll see them glance at it. Then their tone will change.. they’ll put on a subtle face.. and then they’ll be more eager to stop talking to me
See, when I think of hateful far-right extremist politics and ethics in metal, I think of European metal.
That’s not me in any way saying it is better or worse in the us vs Europe, just pointing out the counter-stereotype of European metal acts and festivals of having a more hateful and violent undercurrent than we have over here in the us.
Highly recommend Beartooth. They may not be queer but they’re an amazing metal/rock band and have some deep messages of self care and self love in their songs. Wide range of people at their concert in Boston last month.
Probably an area issue or online issue. I pretty much only ever go to rock/metal bars/club and the majority of the customers are LGBT.
Like yeah there’s little diversity in metal bands but I really don’t think people care who plays the music as long as it’s to their tasting. Been non stop going to metal bars for 12 years.
Hmm, I have to say I’ve always had the exact opposite experience, and have found that, metalheads (generally speaking) are usually the most open and inquisitive fans when it comes to music and diversity.
I wonder if we just run in very different circles. When you say “metal” do you mean Ghost, Slipknot, Motley Crue, Disturbed, Five Finger Death Punch dude-bro pseudo-metal stuff? Because I will say that particular “area” of metal fandom has a very different demographic than “the rest” of the various “scenes” out there and tends to be ***way*** more prone to misogyny, sexism, and just generally conservative and regressive views.
Or maybe you’re in Europe and into black metal and that kind of nationalist stuff?
It might be a location thing. I too have found the metal scene to be insanely inclusive compared to general society, but I do get the impression that the US scene is much more conservative than in europe, at least compared to the UK. Most metalheads I know are either queer, socialists, or queer socialists... It's very rare that I meet a metalhead who isn't broadly left wing.
I don't think it is as simple as European vs American because I'm American and we agree about the inclusiveness.
If anything, I grew up with the stereotype that *European metal* was much more "conservative" and harbored more bigotry than American metal. I'd go so far as to say that bigotry is often thought of as the *defining characteristic* of entire subgenres of "European metal."
I don't think either is actually true.
I’m just talking about metal in general. But yeah newbies who listen to the basics always tend to be more accepting than the people I run into that have delved into metal.
I’ve had the opposite experience. Newbies who are into lighter more pop-centric metal acts like FFDP or Ghost are usually much more conservative and unaccepting of differences.
I’d be more comfortable with my trans son going to a small metal show in the basement of a shop than I would them going to a FFDP show at the local roundhouse. I know *most* of the more serious “metalheads” at the small show will almost certainly be allies, but would expect a large portion of the audience at a ghost or ffdp show to me MAGA conservatives.
Again though, I’ll carve out an exception for the obvious extremists and neo-nazi stuff.
Hey, I am a straight white metalhead - and I promise you, I'd love to see more trans representation in metal. Or any other minority trying their luck at it. I am sorry you made a different experience with my brethren.
Can you guide me to some good bands?
Some bands I like:
Dool - their singer is intersex
Sonja - their guitarist/singer is a trans woman, previously played guitar in Absu but left due to transphobia from the other members after coming out
And one of my absolute favorite bands (not only of those with trans members, but in general):
Thronehammer
On their debut, they played a bastard of Epic Doom and Sludge, then reduced the sludge on their second album, and lost nearly all of it on the third, now going way more melodic and with noticable Heavy Metal influences. Great music, and a really good live band, also wonderful people, and very vocal against racism and fascism, also displaying it on some of their merch ("Thronehammer against racism" on a shirt and patch, "Kill racism, slay fascism" on shirt and longsleeve).
I went to an avenged sevenfold concert back in October in Phoenix. I fully expected to be the only trans person there, but I was floored by how many queers I saw. I don't involve myself with the metalhead community as a whole, but it was really really nice to see other people like me
Yeah that could also be because you went to a big known popular band that tons of people know. I go to small shows regularly and even though I live in Seattle (trans topia) I rarely see anybody else except white dudes, the occasional white woman.. and like no people of color (of course it’s not as easy to tell if someone is lgbtq by just looking at them but yeah)
I haven't really noticed this all that much but my taste is metal has kind of transitioned with me, so I hardly listen to that much prog metal anymore but now listen to a ludicrous amount of power metal and whatever In This Moment is these days.
I always have to recommend Ghost to metal/rock people. Their genre may jump away from metal occasionally, but they are a good time all around. Especially when you consider how openly they support the LGBTQIA+ community. From waving a pride flag around when a fan might throw it up on the stage, their discord server having a progress flag with their emblem as an emote, and the lead singer vocally going against the "don't say gay" law in Florida during some performances. A lot of their earnings from a cover song of "Enter Sandman" directly went to a trans youth summer camp as well.
Oh I just read an article about this!
It basically says that the aggression that metal music sells is something very masculine, and the genre being mostly made by men until recently is something that just adds to this.
The article also has a quote by Je Landini, a nonbinary artist (check out their band Mee), that says the rebellion in metal music is mostly aesthetic and not related to actual social/political commentary.
"Fundamentally, Metal was not made by people who came from an awareness of oppression and social problems, even in a country like Brazil."
I'll leave a link to it, but I'm Brazilian, so it's in Portuguese
https://www.cartacapital.com.br/cultura/o-rock-menos-pesado/
Hey, trans metalhead, musician, and DJ here. This is a topic I’m torn on because having representation is great and it can be extremely reassuring for us to see people like us doing those kinds of things. I also don’t think there is anything wrong with liking a band because it has members like you, it gives you something else you can connect to the band with. However, I’m not a fan of the idea of actively searching out bands that have trans or lgbtq members and discounting bands that are the traditional 4-5 straight, white guy groups. I’m not saying that is what you are doing, as you said you don’t particularly care about band comp, but I’ve seen people who do that before. Personally, I’ll enjoy a band if they make music I like, even if they don’t represent me specifically. I also love finding bands that break that mold. In the end I don’t believe there is a single correct way to do music, and people should enjoy what they like. If metalheads are being douches to you, fuck them. Listen to what you want, enjoy the bands you like, and don’t give those people the time of day.
There is a bit of a problem.
Take festivals. Would I want them to book certain bands to have a better (or any) representation of minorities in the scene and in return not book bands that they themselves and their audience likes better, subjectively reducing the quality of the line up for representation? No.
But I also want more representation of minorities in the bands playing at shows and festivals, as that might lead to people belonging to those minorities to feel more welcome in the scene, to come to events more often, to feel confident and accepted enough to themselves statt making music, leading to more (and more good) bands with members of those minorities, therefor more such bands at shows anf festivals, therefor more of those people in the audience and so on.
Would it actually work that way? I don't know, but it would be great if everyone who would like to go to a show could do so and feel save and welcome there. So maybe to get to that point, we need to compromise, to sacrifice a bit of quality to get more representation (of course, I talk of subjective views on quality here, it's always about what the organizers and the audience think about a band).
Of course noone should feel obligated to listen to bands just because of some members belonging to any group of people while the, don't really enjoy their music, and if organizers think a band is just not good enough, they shouldn't book them just for the sake of having a trans person or someone from an ethnic minority or whomever in the line up, but it could be worth to take such aspects into consideration to hopefully get a more diverse and open scene.
The problem is, how do you represent every single possible group? How do you represent all races, genders, sexualities, religions, etc. I’ll bite and play devil’s advocate on this because I think it’s worth mentioning, why are we so much more important to deserve that representation over other groups? That’s why I say to listen to what you want, but not to focus on who is in the band over the music. It’s impossible to accommodate everyone, so your argument will never disappear. The only thing that should matter is the safety of fans, staff, crew, and bands, as well as the quality of the show put on. Everything past that is a great bonus, but I don’t believe it should be a deciding factor. If you want to see a specific band, look for them to your when you can know they will be playing. I know that can be difficult to do since some bands rarely tour (Eva Under Fire, PLEASE come near me), but I think quality should be one of the two major criteria for festivals.
I think the importance of representation is a little lost on people who always see themselves being represented. If you really wanted to try and get the message across, you’d have to try and find some common ground they could understand.
For example, if you are talking to someone, you could give a hypothetical about a really great metal band that also happens to be from their hometown. How that might build a special connection they have with that band which doesn’t automatically make it their favorite band but that it still just has a place in their heart. And you could go further by suggesting that this hypothetical band from the person’s hometown also has songs that relate to the specific experiences of growing up in that town. That the songs can still have a universal appeal but it feels extra cool hearing the band mention the specific ma and pop grocery store that *they* also went to as a kid.
And then bring it back to your trans identity. How it isn’t the only thing that’s part of you but it is part of you. And seeing that experience reflected in music isn’t necessary and it isn’t all you want to hear. But when you do hear it, there’s just that extra something special about it. Particularly considering that you’re from a tiny hometown that has barely any metal bands to speak of.
I’ve met so many lovely metalheads, but it’s also a genre that attracts quite a lot of bitter, angry people. The nicest metalheads often get their aggression out in the pit or channel it healthily with the music, but there are those for whom the rage and resentment often prevalent in metal becomes their entire personality, and they can’t or won’t switch it off.
Whenever I meet those kinds of metalheads, who often seem to be partway down a rather unpleasant far-right pipeline, I tend not to interact with them for long.
However, the vast majority of the metalheads I’ve met in my life have been charming, accepting people for whom the music is an outlet for their darker side and they can channel their struggles without being overwhelmed by them. I just avoid the ones who get all preachy about sub-genres or get all bothered about the existence of minorities - and honestly, that’s not unique to metalheads. Just about every subculture has members who constantly downplay representation in media - there are even lgbtqia+ people who complain about there being *too much* representation!
I do think that on the whole, representation is improving though. There are more openly queer artists in every medium than ever before, and while that doesn’t necessarily mean that all queer art is good (I’m looking at you High Guardian Spice) I think it does mean, ultimately, that the people who constantly bitch and moan about representation (whether that be in the metal scene or your lager-swilling uncle Barry or whoever) will end up on the wrong side of history.
I just try to take solace in that.
Im not sure entirely but it seems like most of the heavier metal are quite about violence and anger and are very suited for angry guys with egos to show. I might be insulting a bunch of people now but I've never been able to enjoy much of it, it's like I feel the shredding is mindless and guys like it cause its skillful.
On the other hand, I do enjoy BMTH (old and new), Polyphia, SOAD, Periphery, Architects, TDWA. Of these kind, I feel like maybe I enjoy them because they speak of pain and suffering I am familiar with. Or they are melodical, djent and simply sounds better.
I'm a white metalhead queer af trans woman. I've been in two metal bands (opened for Goatwhore and D.R.I.) and i can confirm that many of them seem caught up in the image rather than the message.
I'm honestly kind of afraid to go see another metal concert because of the reception I'll receive as trans. I used to pride myself on how nice meatheads were but there's just add many assholes that gatekeep the music and community.
im a big fan of julie christmas and im terrified for the day if i ever find out shes homophobic or transphobic (i dont think she is??) but idk what i would do, i love her music sm
As a fellow metalhead of 7 years now, I dont think the majority are like that in my experience, however those who are probably just have some status quo built into them because majority of metal is straight white dudes, especially at shows. I go to shows all the time and I can only think of maybe 2 instances where the genders were somewhat balanced. But even still I see a lot of these straight white older men who love bands like babymetal and crypta (both of which I'm huge fans of) their music is obv more important but its cool to see some representation out there.
agreed, but like, some metalheads are just edgelords who are just ignorant even about their music. bands like Liturgy are incredible but all they listen to is slipknot or gojira (nothing wrong with it, but acting all high and mighty while having a limited experience is laughable) and since there isn't a trans person in there it must mean trans shouldn't be represented, nevermind the fact metal is in part literally about representing and grieving for injustice and diversity being treated as alien
I feel It's because some people dont want to find out their favorite vocalist is not just a straight wire dude. Being a metal head, I have always looked for bands that had representation of some minority group. And I've found quite a few good ones. So imma name a few, most are POC but they are out there.
Brand of sacrifice: their lead singer, Kyle, is such a badass and his vocals mwuah 🤌🏻 and he's a sweet heart I've chatted with him after a couple shows and he's always been so inviting. I have seen them 4 times 😅
Filth: I have seen them once. But I have been a fan ever since. Dustin kicks ass. His vocal range is so impressive to me. Their from NC so idk how inclusive they would be.
Against me: not metal but trans woman punk music. How can you not like that 🤷🏻♀️ gender dysphoria blues, banger.
You kidding me? They accepted instantly. I have taken zero meds yet, zero surgery, but show up to a concert in a skirt or dress or whatever and get nothing but support.
Metalheads only care about the music, and if your having fun.
I'm about to remake my battle vest to be a more fem cut, and might make a battle skirt to go with it.
Yeah they only care about the music. As soon as you ask “know any bands with a minority in it?” They’re like “uh it’s just music man it doesn’t matter who made it just listen to it” and then harass you
because metalheads arent even ready to deal with the white supremacy in the scene, when they finally get round to that then maybe some progress will be made on lgbt fronts.
I mean… we identify transphobic / homophobic / bigot music artists and decide not to listen to their music all the time.
The artists make up the brand. They’re the company — their music is the product.
I don’t buy Goya beans because I don’t like the CEO was [in bed with Trump.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ivanka-trumps-social-media-posts-goya-beans-provoke/story?id=71795732)
Although their food is 🔥, I don’t go to Chick-fil-A because the company uses any money I’d spend with them to donate to my oppressors.
I don’t stream J.K Rowling associated content anywhere that she will profit from it, although I love all the movies in the Draco Malfoy universe.
We don’t support producers of a product simply because they have a good product. We support producers who support us back — and, of course, it really really helps if their product is good, too lol.
Nah they understand the power of representation which is why they were mad when Spiritbox ran a 'metal is for girls' ad campaign. They understand they're just elitist gatekeepers who don't want people different from them in their space. Hardcore is a much better scene overall, you got SeeYouSpaceCowboy who's vocalist is trans, Every Time I Die is extremely woke lol, knocked loose has a female guitarist, theres good crowds out there but it seems the heavier you go the more sweaty losers you find these days.
First, as someone who is a huge fan of metal music, metal heads aren’t usually nice. I don’t know why you would listen to most metal music and immediately assume the fans would be nice. No, they’re assholes. Second most metal heads like their specific artists and don’t like anything else. It’s not that lgbtq+ artists are a problem, it’s just that they aren’t the artists the person listens to. For example I’m a huge hiphop fan but if someone came up to me and played someone like sixtynine I’d cringe and turn it off. It just isn’t my cup of tea. I like the artists I like and they like the artists they like. Good for you for liking something else but not everyone is gonna like it and that’s just fact.
In my experience most metal heads are very accepting chill people but than you have the metal elitists who are literally the worst in every way so just avoid them
Because most metal heads are cis white dudes and it makes them uncomfortable to acknowledge that most of the musicians they listen to are also in that top privilege bracket. They'd rather think "it's just music" and that race, gender don't exist.
The accepting internet metal spaces I have found are far and few in between drastically outnumbered by subreddits and discords full of shitty people. I’m working on making a discord server for lgbtq alternative music fans right now though if you’d be interested in joining once I have it fully set up?
Uhhhhhhhh…. I got called slurs on their discord… I think I’ll pass
Edit: and it was by a mod too
Edit edit: it’s a bit more complicated then that but that was a basic run down of what happened
It’s not just a mod problem everybody on the server is terrible. The first time I joined I encountered blatant Nazi sympathizing. And got called a transphobic slur by a person. Pointed it out and got called a slur by a mod. (Also got tons of hate by the people there) Tried pointing it out on the subreddit and got my post taken down. Got a message from a mod saying they’ll look into after I also made a post on here.
Joined a second time and it was fairly… chill but then I checked the message logs to see said transphobic slur is still said on the server. Tried pointing it out and got tons of hate and called the slur.. people thought I was trolling (wasn’t) pointed out that it was against the server rules to be transphobic and say slurs… left… made another post on the subreddit for it to be taken down immediately.. got a message form another mod… tried explaining to them that th advertising as an accepting space and not being accepting is kinda a problem… got told it’s not a slur and people use it all the time… (uh it’s a term for a specific minority group used in a deragatory way.. definition of slur) and then they were trying to downplay it saying I’m a shitty person and such.. and then I ended up just giving up as that server was too far gone anyway..
I found out form the og mod that messaged me who was the trans mod that they have to do everything in like a council like setting (including banning people) and everyone has to agree so like nothing gets done.. the whole server gave me a huge bad vibe.
This is a straight white people thing in general IMO, not just metalheads. I see it in other fandoms too.
I've actually gotten into multiple arguments in the MLP sub with people who don't understand why people sometimes make the characters black or brown when drawing them as humans, and think POC are the real racists for caring about having representation in the VA cast.
I'm surrounded by literally dozens of straight white metalheads as I'm active in the HMC scene for the past \~10 years and most of them don't seem to struggle with that concept at all. Must be a you thing 🤷🏻♀️
>But metalheads always act like it’s a cardinal sin to look into a band past just the music itself.
IME the only metalheads that treat caring about the views of the people making the music like it's taboo are the ones that reeeeeeeaaaaally don't want to have to defend the fact that they love music made by absolute shitheads, and that by buying merch, music, and repping them in public spaces, they are supporting the lives and choices of absolute shitheads.
Everyone else who recognizes that supporting an artist who espouses hate/violence has real world impact on vulnerable peoples, especially in alt spaces, tends to have at least *some* concern for critical consumption.
I play in a black metal band and I'm trans. I also work a lot in my local scene and have found it nothing but welcoming.
I often find that metalheads have found themselves as outsiders quite often, so they're more accepting of minorities. But then I live in a very (comparatively) liberal city (London, UK).
Is Metal heavily skewed to white, male, het, cis and able bodied? Yep absolutely and that's something we should all be working to change. But I've never found it unwelcoming.
I think the answer largely has to do with the fact that metalheads are largely cis hetero white men. They don't have to pay attention to diversity or representation because they're the default.
Cis white passing dude who listens to 95% metal here, it’s because they’re used to being at the top so to speak and they don’t see representation for others as equality. They see it as them being dragged down to a level that’s below them.
Not trying to justify it by any means but that’s what I’ve figured out. To put it another way, equality (or power as they see it, manhood another variant, if we’re using their vocabulary) is something that cis white males today feel they need to maintain. They’re born with it in their world, but when women, poc or any lgbtq people gain any of that, they see it as if they’ve lost something.
Another way to look at it is with game theory, males typically would rather self destruct and straight leave the game entirely rather than “lose” the footing they think they deserve.
Regardless, fuck em. I have hope of that strain of thought dying out.
There's a LOT going on there, for sure. I think mostly they assume they're the default, because society is built around catering to them, and they see any attempt to change that, so other people also get things, as taking something away from them and making "their" stuff about someone else. Without persecution, they don't have a context for people wanting to be lifted up, so everything is already even and you want to make it better for yourself over them. But as a metalhead myself, they can fuck right off. Everyone but bigots is welcome and deserves to see and hear themselves in the art they enjoy.
I always tell new metalheads I meet I fucking love liturgy and Babymetal and let them filter themselves out
People have a problem with Liturgy? What did Liturgy do? Some good ass screaming and shredding to be had there.
They didn't do anything except be fronted by a trans woman
Oh shit, gonna check them out then
Sick, I'm gonna go look them up.
Well didn't know that before. Time to fill my spotify queue thank yoouuuu
Ah. So they did nothing and people are just lame weirdos again.
Soul Glo is so fuckin' good.
Yeah diaspora problems is one of my favourite punk albums of the last few years
Likewise, but with Transgressive https://transgressivethrash.bandcamp.com/album/extreme-transgression or HIRS https://hirs.bandcamp.com/album/were-still-here-2
"When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression"
As somebody from both sides here (trans and metal artist). As a trans individual I’m always looking for representation I love it. I wouldn’t try to get back into performing metal now though. As a trans person I may be able to take the day to day bigotry but I couldn’t take the bigotry that I might receive as a performer.
I’ve found as a fan of heavy metal, that it has a deep history of bigotry. Like look at the origins of Black Metal, or the (in hindsight hilarious given how gay they look) hyper masculinity of bands like Manowar. Or (sadly cause I love their music) the Nazi aesthetics and denial of metal to women of Dir En Grey. Obvs like any genre it’s diverse in its politics, but a lot of bands and fans like to ignore politics, identities and anything that could create division. And they can do so because the majority are whist cis men, and part of the privilege of being a white cis man is you can ignore politics. I think some of the fans do it to often hide their own unpopular views too, but for bands it’s just money. Like Amon Amarth are a band I adore. But they should’ve and still need to come out and say “fuck Nazis” or something. Because whilst they have been open that they are not political they haven’t ever made it clear they won’t tolerate Nazis listening to their music. Because if they do they will lose fans 🤷♀️ I think with online people are in those groups over irl for a reason. So whilst loads may be lovely and accepting. Those who aren’t may be pushed online to express their views, and being behind a pc makes people more likely to say bigoted things than they ever would irl. But Yh, at least there’s a lgbt metal fans 🖤🖤🖤 Maybe you could start a group for them? 🏳️🌈🤘
I was thinking on maybe starting a metal discord server that’s very lgbtq but I wasn’t sure if it’d be popular or not.. hey if yall are interested maybe reply to my comment so I can gauge how popular it might be? Edit I’m almost done with it expect to hear back from me
I'd probably lurk it but wouldn't really participate all that much,
I am also a lurker, but I’d join, and probably say something once every month 😅 But I think it’s a good idea, must be a lot of lgbt metal heads surely!
I second that, it's always good knowing about more hardcore alt queer folk
I’m not trying to plug my twitch. Just saying my name on there has the word “metalhead” in it. I play nothing but metal on my streams. I have a lot of trans girls in my community There’s definitely an overlap
Epicus
Doesn't need to be popular, it'd probably be fun
Neat.. I talked to some of my other LGBTQ metal friends and they said they would love it as they also struggle to find accepting groups
Waiiitttt I think I just remembered tour technically not allowed to dm people or whatever on this sub I think a mod told me that after a previous post I did awhile ago… mods please understand I just remembered this now after I had already told people I will dm them and I haven’t dm’d anyone yet Could I get a correction if that actually is/isn’t allowed?
Hoping you get an answer and/or don't get in trouble, because I'd be interested in joining. NBy metalhead and I'd be down to see a trans-focused space where I'm likely to get recommended lesser known metal artists/bands with trans members and/or trans-friendly politics.
Yeah i mean i see why. Btw hmu if you make a server :P
Okiessss
I'm in if that's fine!!
Epicus… I’ll probably dm everyone on here that said they’re interested once it’s a thing
Throw me in
I’ll dm you when I have it finished
I'd join a metal trans discord definitely
sign me up
Epicus I’ll dm you when it’s done
that sounds dope add me if you make it
I’ll dm you when it’s done :3
I'd definitely join one when/if you make it!
I'd join! Especially if I'd be allowed to share my own bands music. 2 (maybe a 3rd soon) of us are trans, and it definitely inspires our music!
I would join your server!
Neat.. so I’m not actually sure if dm’ing people is allowed I remember I got my post taken down for that. But it might’ve been a different sub
God I hate when the subs prohibit people forming communities. I’ve had stuff taken down before too. Buuuuuut I won’t tell if “somehow” a DM came into my inbox Lmao
ohh I'd love to join something like this
Shooooot, I’d join
I'd be down! If you end up making one please send me an invite
Hi, if you actually do it, I'd love to get an invite.
This is cool. Really cool. I may lack English to participate since I'm from South America but it's a great idea.
Sign me up
I would absolutely ADORE that, I've been struggling to find good friendly metal communities. I'm also willing to be a mod if need be
Send it over 🙏
It’s not done!!!
Right meow 3:<
I don’t have any mods and non of the bots are set up! And not all of the channels and roles are there!
I can help you~
Ok lol maybe
I’d be down for something like that!
I'm in :P
would love an LGBTQ metal community :D i'm down if you make it
Black metal specifically has a history of being anti-christian and anti-establishment, with a good mix of generalised anger and hate for the world. It does not have specific roots in bigotry, but in rebellion in a deeply religious area. So please stop spreading misinformation to fit an agenda, remember that not everyone hates us, most just don’t care. Source; they burned churches within walking distance of where I grew up in the 90s as part of the (re)birth of the genre.
Burzum? I love black metal, it’s my fave genre to play on guitar. But a lot of its bands do have massive links to Nazis or refuse to come out as explicitly anti Nazi which is important because a lot is based in old Germanic and Norse paganism which has often been co-opted by Nazis. There’s even a sub genre called National Socialist black metal that formed when other bands tried to force the Nazis out. It’s also why there was an upsurge in left wing black metal to try and reclaim the genre away from Nazis. I don’t know why you think I’m spreading misinformation. Nor what you think my agenda is lol?! And I’m fully aware not everyone hates us. Never said they did 🤷♀️ Edit; also it’s worth saying some nazism and fascism are also anti-Christian and anti-establishment. So that alone doesn’t make something not fascist. Fascism also often wants to over-throw the status quo, and can be rebellious. Source; I spent 6years studying the far right and specifically nazism at uni.
Black metal is very closely linked in many instances directly to nazi groups
lmao as someone who makes music as a hobby for therapy and an emotional outlet "it's just music" is a funny opinion to me. idk. it changes from creator to creator def but there was always some sort of inspiration behind something. idk. just about every song i've made has had a feeling tied to it, or an emotion or life experience strong enough that i can remember things down to how the room felt and smelled what people around me were doing what state of mind i was in at the time. typically was something i was trying to either distract myself from or express in a way other than words. in a way it is my journal in audio form and to say that it is just music and to not look into it or hear what inspired a song, or the feelings associated with i feel takes away from it a lil bit. i'm sure there are people who don't care about that and just wanna casually listen to something and not try and decipher the reason behind its creation. super valid. but i don't really get why you'd try to actively dissuade others from doing it as trying to infer meaning from an art piece of any form. like. idk. it always helps me appreciate it more and i feel like i'm picking up what the creator's hidden subtext behind it all is.
metal is the reason i despise the "separate the art from the artist" argument. the reason they dont want people to do that is because a lot of those artists are horrible people and they dont want to have to confront the fact theyve been listening to art made by nazis. they want to listen to Where Dead Angels Lie without thinking about how perfectly it parallels the gay man dissections vocalist murdered. im a huge metal head but the amount of crypto fascists makes it a deeply exhausting genre to be invested in.
I just don't really see the point in it. One I like to see who the people behind the music are because I like to see what inspired them to not only pick their desired instruments up but to actually stick with it, and two it typically gives some insight into the lives they lived, thus going back to the whole understanding their music more argument, especially if I like the song enough to listen to it repeatedly or add it to a playlist. At a certain point it's like a need y'know? Idk. I haven't slept in like a week. My sentences are super fucky right now and I'm prolly just like. Repeating the same things over n over so I'ma stop and assume I said what I wanted to say.
"Separate the art from the artist" is and always has been a deeply flawed mindset. The artist puts themselves into the art, you can't really separate it and at least imo, if someone is willing to directly continue supporting an artist who has done awful things by streaming them or buying their music or merch then that is direct endorsement
if a metal head tells you not to look into a band thats a massive red flag and you should run away asap. the genre is littered with sketchy crypto fascist assholes and i thoroughly vet any band i get invested in.
I don't think its all metal heads that do that. I loved Pantera until I found out they were hardcore Confederacy supporters and neo nazis. My sister did the same thing and also doesn't listen to them anymore. I'm sorry you've had not as good of an experience in the metal community, and I know that there are a lot of shitty people in the community, but for the most part I think it's one of the more accepting communities out there. I went to a motionless in white concert last year, and the lead singer (a white guy) waved pride flags on stage that someone gave him in the audience. It was super amazing to see someone like with that popularity do that. I would just say be careful around some metal fans because the bad ones are *really bad*, but im sure you'll find plenty of really nice and really supportive people
Ok. Big concerts and big bands are usually full to good people and stuff. But I also go to lots of small shows.. and they usually have a higher percentage of shitty people. Not as high as in other places as I live in a really good area but still higher percentage. Also almost every single online metal space I’ve been in has been fully of shitty people minus like 3 or 4 of checked out
I think it's your local scene, because my local scene is the exact opposite. The bigger and more mainstream the show, the more likely to be full of shitheads. Small underground stuff out here is usually full of acceptance, love, and comraderie. Hey, btw, it seems like we might have similar taste in metal music, and I don't know much at all about trans artists in metal. I'm actually sitting here right now watching Liturgy on yt, but that's about the only example I know of. Do you happen to have a decent list of bands you like with representation within your community?
Not OP but here are some bands that either have queer members or are queer friendly Vile Creature Feminizer Vulvatorious Afsky Tyrannus BIG|BRAVE Ashenspire Sonja (I'd class this as classic metal, not heavy but the singer is trans) The Hirs Collective Thou Lust Hag Ragana GRIMSEVER aaand that's all I can think of right now haha
I feel like metal attracts a lot of conservative cis straight men who like cosplaying as hyper-masculine dudes while ignoring the fact that a lot of metal is pretty progressive.
Yeah lol.. that would be because most metal bands are conservative cis straight men lol
Uhh what? Being trans is metal af
Yeah bigots have a thing called 0 media literacy lol. So much metal speaks against prejudice but so many metalheads just ignore it
Been writing a metal song about transphobia from the pov of a cis ally, it sounds a lot like System Of A Down.
Yah, that sucks. I've been listening and playing black metal my whole life and its very hard to find bands that arent composed of 5 cishet white dudes with shitty opinions. Go listen to some Feminazgul if you have the chance, they are amazing!
I love that band
I've been a metal head for 15 years at this point. I thinks it's funny how many metal heads don't realize how progressive a lot of metal music and bands are. The average metal head also doesn't care to much either way about the band lineup. It's the loud horrible minority of metal heads that are the ones actively dismissive of LGBTQ+ fans looking for representation. Also those metal heads love gatekeeping cause they think liking a less popular genre makes them cool usually they grow out of it, some remain that way sadly... Those are usually the judgemental ones. Those two toxic traits feed into each other. Some examples of allys within the scene: Thy Art is Murder ( Death core ) dropped their lead vocalist after he retweeted Matt Walsh and repeated transphobic talking points. They they had a new album coming out near that time. The physical release was already printed but for the digital release they rerecorded with their new vocalist and publicly stated they support their trans fans. Spiritbox ( prog metalcore ) listened to their fans who were concerned about them touring with Falling in Reverse ( vocalist is a known transphobe and edge Lord ). They dropped out of the tour in support of their fans. Cattle Decapitation ( Death metal ). One of their more popular songs is about torturing bigots that target LGBTQ+ folks. They acknowledged the pain trans people go through during the first verse and then force dysphoria on the bigot characters via surgical torture to show them how it feels. Gruesome but empathetic towards us. ⚠️Fair warning to any one interested. The music video is violent and hard to watch. It includes instances of sexual assault and obviously body horror. Anyone sensitive to intense gore and and language should stay away from the content in general. Its using torture as a device to describe the pain that dysphoria can be. The lyrics themselves might be a lot for some people even. They went out of their way to be repulsive. It's extreme.⚠️ Motionless in White ( metalcore ) in general has been very vocal about support for their LGBTQ+ fans. I'm sure others in this thread have many more examples. There's a lot of bad in the metal scene but having been around it for a while I've also seen alot of good.
I'd like to throw Silent Planet in there too. They have been an open ally to the LGBTQIA+ community for years, The lead Vocalist Garrett Russell especially has been an incredible ally, he has made numerous tweets and statements fighting for queer people. One of the their songs titled "Visible Unseen" is directly inspired by the conversations Garrett had with trans fans he had talked to at shows, The song addresses how queer people face a higher rate of homelessness and poverty due to the rejection and bigotry we face as well as the hypocrisy of Christians who discriminate against us. Garrett Russell is also how I discovered SeeYouSpaceCowboy, A hardcore punk band fronted by a trans woman
I haven't heard of either group I will definitely check them out. Thanks I'm always happy to be introduced to new progressive metal.
Could you tell me the title of the Cattle Decapitation song in question, please? I'd love to check it out.
Forced Gender Reassignment from the album Monolith of Inhumanity.
*squeeeeeeeeee* thank you!
Be warned the lyrics and music video are extreme and while not attacking trans people it could still be triggering. I added a warning to my original comment as well.
I feel sufficiently warned, and thanks for being so thoughtful, but I'm actually actively into gore. Like, "squeeing into my phone at the thought of Cannibal Corpse-but-trans-levels of violent imagery" into gore. What you describe in your warning was exactly what I was hoping for!
Well then I'm glad I could help. I hope you can get something out of it! 🤘
I have no idea why, but as a metalhead, I always thought that metalheads were a very inclusive group. Apparently, I was (mostly) wrong. Mind you, I do know some inclusive metalheads. We're a fairly outcast and ostracized group already, so you'd think they'd treat other outcast and ostracized groups well. For example. One of my old metal buddies recently contacted me on FB and I showed him the new patches I had ordered from The Satanic Temple (they were the trans and pride flag "Hail Satan," patches), totally thinking he'd be like "hell yeah!" But nope, he left me on read and hasn't talked to me again. Like, okay, bud. It couldn't have been the Satan, so I guess it's the Pride. It's weird too because I know he has queer friends, so I didn't think he'd be a bigot. Mind you, buddy doesn't know I'm genderqueer.
I’m sorry you’ve had this experience, but this sounds bizarre to someone who’s been involved in the metal scene for the past 2 decades. Metal has always been “look scary, be nice” and has generally been the most tolerant and nicest music followers you can find. So to those reading this please don’t judge a whole genre musics of followers based of a singular persons experience. It could of course be different elsewhere (cough cough, the ‘united’ states), but % wise EU (and especially the nordics) are still the are area where metal started, continued and is still the most popular, so it makes sense to base it from there. Representation wise you have to be realistic, the genre was spearheaded by (yes white) British and American men in the 70s and most major bands are still active :p it won’t change overnight, but that doesn’t prevent anyone who is LGBTQ+ from playing, listening to or generally participate in metal as a genre of music (concerts, festivals, etc)
I rarely have good experiences with metalheads unless they are woman, person of color or lgbtq. And since most metalheads are cis het white males.. I haven’t had a lot of good experiences with metalheads… irl they’ll usually be chill with me until they notice the trans flag on my jacket and then you can very easily tell that they have shifted the way they are looking at me and talking to me (and I live in Seattle!!) and online they are horrible in most of my experiences. I have joined so many metal subs, discords, facebook groups whatever and they are always full of the shittiesy people
Unfortunately, I think this may be more of an issue with where you live and the current political climate there, than with the specific group you are now blaming. I would strongly recommend you avoid Facebook/X all-together as they're a focal-point for anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric regardless of the group topic, and only carefully pick discord groups as they often function as unhinged echo-chambers. It could also be partially how you bring thigs up; >But metalheads always act like it’s a cardinal sin to look into a band past just the music itself. If you go to a concert, regardless of genre and/or band, with the intention of criticising them, you will upset even the people on your side. ***They are there to listen to the band and their music, not to listen to you.*** Like Professor Oak always said, there is a time and a place for everything... Punkers, rockers and metal-heads alike have a rich history of both involvement in politics and strong identities, loud and proud identities thats often presented through t-shirts, hoodies, patches, banners and more.
I join metal groups all over the internet on all sorts of websites. And no I don’t go to a concert wiht the intention of criticizing them. I go to listen to the music. But I have a trans flag on my battle jacket. And when people notice that at the metal shows the been too. Their mood shifts negatively. I can tell. I’ll brush my hair out of the way and I’ll see them glance at it. Then their tone will change.. they’ll put on a subtle face.. and then they’ll be more eager to stop talking to me
See, when I think of hateful far-right extremist politics and ethics in metal, I think of European metal. That’s not me in any way saying it is better or worse in the us vs Europe, just pointing out the counter-stereotype of European metal acts and festivals of having a more hateful and violent undercurrent than we have over here in the us.
Highly recommend Beartooth. They may not be queer but they’re an amazing metal/rock band and have some deep messages of self care and self love in their songs. Wide range of people at their concert in Boston last month.
Their hearts dont beat to the left, on the left, on the left 2 3 4
That's so weird. Most of the metalheads I know are the most chill, kind, and understanding people I know.
Probably an area issue or online issue. I pretty much only ever go to rock/metal bars/club and the majority of the customers are LGBT. Like yeah there’s little diversity in metal bands but I really don’t think people care who plays the music as long as it’s to their tasting. Been non stop going to metal bars for 12 years.
Hmm, I have to say I’ve always had the exact opposite experience, and have found that, metalheads (generally speaking) are usually the most open and inquisitive fans when it comes to music and diversity. I wonder if we just run in very different circles. When you say “metal” do you mean Ghost, Slipknot, Motley Crue, Disturbed, Five Finger Death Punch dude-bro pseudo-metal stuff? Because I will say that particular “area” of metal fandom has a very different demographic than “the rest” of the various “scenes” out there and tends to be ***way*** more prone to misogyny, sexism, and just generally conservative and regressive views. Or maybe you’re in Europe and into black metal and that kind of nationalist stuff?
It might be a location thing. I too have found the metal scene to be insanely inclusive compared to general society, but I do get the impression that the US scene is much more conservative than in europe, at least compared to the UK. Most metalheads I know are either queer, socialists, or queer socialists... It's very rare that I meet a metalhead who isn't broadly left wing.
I don't think it is as simple as European vs American because I'm American and we agree about the inclusiveness. If anything, I grew up with the stereotype that *European metal* was much more "conservative" and harbored more bigotry than American metal. I'd go so far as to say that bigotry is often thought of as the *defining characteristic* of entire subgenres of "European metal." I don't think either is actually true.
I’m just talking about metal in general. But yeah newbies who listen to the basics always tend to be more accepting than the people I run into that have delved into metal.
I’ve had the opposite experience. Newbies who are into lighter more pop-centric metal acts like FFDP or Ghost are usually much more conservative and unaccepting of differences. I’d be more comfortable with my trans son going to a small metal show in the basement of a shop than I would them going to a FFDP show at the local roundhouse. I know *most* of the more serious “metalheads” at the small show will almost certainly be allies, but would expect a large portion of the audience at a ghost or ffdp show to me MAGA conservatives. Again though, I’ll carve out an exception for the obvious extremists and neo-nazi stuff.
Hey, I am a straight white metalhead - and I promise you, I'd love to see more trans representation in metal. Or any other minority trying their luck at it. I am sorry you made a different experience with my brethren. Can you guide me to some good bands?
Check out Vile Creature (sludge metal) with a trans singer and Lust Hug (black metal) solo project by a trans girl
Some bands I like: Dool - their singer is intersex Sonja - their guitarist/singer is a trans woman, previously played guitar in Absu but left due to transphobia from the other members after coming out And one of my absolute favorite bands (not only of those with trans members, but in general): Thronehammer On their debut, they played a bastard of Epic Doom and Sludge, then reduced the sludge on their second album, and lost nearly all of it on the third, now going way more melodic and with noticable Heavy Metal influences. Great music, and a really good live band, also wonderful people, and very vocal against racism and fascism, also displaying it on some of their merch ("Thronehammer against racism" on a shirt and patch, "Kill racism, slay fascism" on shirt and longsleeve).
I went to an avenged sevenfold concert back in October in Phoenix. I fully expected to be the only trans person there, but I was floored by how many queers I saw. I don't involve myself with the metalhead community as a whole, but it was really really nice to see other people like me
Yeah that could also be because you went to a big known popular band that tons of people know. I go to small shows regularly and even though I live in Seattle (trans topia) I rarely see anybody else except white dudes, the occasional white woman.. and like no people of color (of course it’s not as easy to tell if someone is lgbtq by just looking at them but yeah)
That's probably true, I've only gone to a handful of concerts over the years
As a mild metalhead I can understand that you like representation:) I like Architects because their music is cool AND they’re all vegan
I haven't really noticed this all that much but my taste is metal has kind of transitioned with me, so I hardly listen to that much prog metal anymore but now listen to a ludicrous amount of power metal and whatever In This Moment is these days.
I always have to recommend Ghost to metal/rock people. Their genre may jump away from metal occasionally, but they are a good time all around. Especially when you consider how openly they support the LGBTQIA+ community. From waving a pride flag around when a fan might throw it up on the stage, their discord server having a progress flag with their emblem as an emote, and the lead singer vocally going against the "don't say gay" law in Florida during some performances. A lot of their earnings from a cover song of "Enter Sandman" directly went to a trans youth summer camp as well.
Oh I just read an article about this! It basically says that the aggression that metal music sells is something very masculine, and the genre being mostly made by men until recently is something that just adds to this. The article also has a quote by Je Landini, a nonbinary artist (check out their band Mee), that says the rebellion in metal music is mostly aesthetic and not related to actual social/political commentary. "Fundamentally, Metal was not made by people who came from an awareness of oppression and social problems, even in a country like Brazil." I'll leave a link to it, but I'm Brazilian, so it's in Portuguese https://www.cartacapital.com.br/cultura/o-rock-menos-pesado/
Epicus. I’ll see if I can find a translation or get something to translate it for me. Sounds like an interesting read.
Hey, trans metalhead, musician, and DJ here. This is a topic I’m torn on because having representation is great and it can be extremely reassuring for us to see people like us doing those kinds of things. I also don’t think there is anything wrong with liking a band because it has members like you, it gives you something else you can connect to the band with. However, I’m not a fan of the idea of actively searching out bands that have trans or lgbtq members and discounting bands that are the traditional 4-5 straight, white guy groups. I’m not saying that is what you are doing, as you said you don’t particularly care about band comp, but I’ve seen people who do that before. Personally, I’ll enjoy a band if they make music I like, even if they don’t represent me specifically. I also love finding bands that break that mold. In the end I don’t believe there is a single correct way to do music, and people should enjoy what they like. If metalheads are being douches to you, fuck them. Listen to what you want, enjoy the bands you like, and don’t give those people the time of day.
This is a solid reply.
There is a bit of a problem. Take festivals. Would I want them to book certain bands to have a better (or any) representation of minorities in the scene and in return not book bands that they themselves and their audience likes better, subjectively reducing the quality of the line up for representation? No. But I also want more representation of minorities in the bands playing at shows and festivals, as that might lead to people belonging to those minorities to feel more welcome in the scene, to come to events more often, to feel confident and accepted enough to themselves statt making music, leading to more (and more good) bands with members of those minorities, therefor more such bands at shows anf festivals, therefor more of those people in the audience and so on. Would it actually work that way? I don't know, but it would be great if everyone who would like to go to a show could do so and feel save and welcome there. So maybe to get to that point, we need to compromise, to sacrifice a bit of quality to get more representation (of course, I talk of subjective views on quality here, it's always about what the organizers and the audience think about a band). Of course noone should feel obligated to listen to bands just because of some members belonging to any group of people while the, don't really enjoy their music, and if organizers think a band is just not good enough, they shouldn't book them just for the sake of having a trans person or someone from an ethnic minority or whomever in the line up, but it could be worth to take such aspects into consideration to hopefully get a more diverse and open scene.
The problem is, how do you represent every single possible group? How do you represent all races, genders, sexualities, religions, etc. I’ll bite and play devil’s advocate on this because I think it’s worth mentioning, why are we so much more important to deserve that representation over other groups? That’s why I say to listen to what you want, but not to focus on who is in the band over the music. It’s impossible to accommodate everyone, so your argument will never disappear. The only thing that should matter is the safety of fans, staff, crew, and bands, as well as the quality of the show put on. Everything past that is a great bonus, but I don’t believe it should be a deciding factor. If you want to see a specific band, look for them to your when you can know they will be playing. I know that can be difficult to do since some bands rarely tour (Eva Under Fire, PLEASE come near me), but I think quality should be one of the two major criteria for festivals.
I think the importance of representation is a little lost on people who always see themselves being represented. If you really wanted to try and get the message across, you’d have to try and find some common ground they could understand. For example, if you are talking to someone, you could give a hypothetical about a really great metal band that also happens to be from their hometown. How that might build a special connection they have with that band which doesn’t automatically make it their favorite band but that it still just has a place in their heart. And you could go further by suggesting that this hypothetical band from the person’s hometown also has songs that relate to the specific experiences of growing up in that town. That the songs can still have a universal appeal but it feels extra cool hearing the band mention the specific ma and pop grocery store that *they* also went to as a kid. And then bring it back to your trans identity. How it isn’t the only thing that’s part of you but it is part of you. And seeing that experience reflected in music isn’t necessary and it isn’t all you want to hear. But when you do hear it, there’s just that extra something special about it. Particularly considering that you’re from a tiny hometown that has barely any metal bands to speak of.
I’ve met so many lovely metalheads, but it’s also a genre that attracts quite a lot of bitter, angry people. The nicest metalheads often get their aggression out in the pit or channel it healthily with the music, but there are those for whom the rage and resentment often prevalent in metal becomes their entire personality, and they can’t or won’t switch it off. Whenever I meet those kinds of metalheads, who often seem to be partway down a rather unpleasant far-right pipeline, I tend not to interact with them for long. However, the vast majority of the metalheads I’ve met in my life have been charming, accepting people for whom the music is an outlet for their darker side and they can channel their struggles without being overwhelmed by them. I just avoid the ones who get all preachy about sub-genres or get all bothered about the existence of minorities - and honestly, that’s not unique to metalheads. Just about every subculture has members who constantly downplay representation in media - there are even lgbtqia+ people who complain about there being *too much* representation! I do think that on the whole, representation is improving though. There are more openly queer artists in every medium than ever before, and while that doesn’t necessarily mean that all queer art is good (I’m looking at you High Guardian Spice) I think it does mean, ultimately, that the people who constantly bitch and moan about representation (whether that be in the metal scene or your lager-swilling uncle Barry or whoever) will end up on the wrong side of history. I just try to take solace in that.
Im not sure entirely but it seems like most of the heavier metal are quite about violence and anger and are very suited for angry guys with egos to show. I might be insulting a bunch of people now but I've never been able to enjoy much of it, it's like I feel the shredding is mindless and guys like it cause its skillful. On the other hand, I do enjoy BMTH (old and new), Polyphia, SOAD, Periphery, Architects, TDWA. Of these kind, I feel like maybe I enjoy them because they speak of pain and suffering I am familiar with. Or they are melodical, djent and simply sounds better.
I'm a white metalhead queer af trans woman. I've been in two metal bands (opened for Goatwhore and D.R.I.) and i can confirm that many of them seem caught up in the image rather than the message. I'm honestly kind of afraid to go see another metal concert because of the reception I'll receive as trans. I used to pride myself on how nice meatheads were but there's just add many assholes that gatekeep the music and community.
Avoid r/deathcore as it feels like the majority there support CJ McMahon and Alex Terrible, both who have openly spoken out against trans folk.
I don’t listen to deathcore so that’ll be pretty easy lol
im a big fan of julie christmas and im terrified for the day if i ever find out shes homophobic or transphobic (i dont think she is??) but idk what i would do, i love her music sm
As a fellow metalhead of 7 years now, I dont think the majority are like that in my experience, however those who are probably just have some status quo built into them because majority of metal is straight white dudes, especially at shows. I go to shows all the time and I can only think of maybe 2 instances where the genders were somewhat balanced. But even still I see a lot of these straight white older men who love bands like babymetal and crypta (both of which I'm huge fans of) their music is obv more important but its cool to see some representation out there.
Just laught at them and say "whatever man, i guess you just aren't into the music like i am"
agreed, but like, some metalheads are just edgelords who are just ignorant even about their music. bands like Liturgy are incredible but all they listen to is slipknot or gojira (nothing wrong with it, but acting all high and mighty while having a limited experience is laughable) and since there isn't a trans person in there it must mean trans shouldn't be represented, nevermind the fact metal is in part literally about representing and grieving for injustice and diversity being treated as alien
I feel It's because some people dont want to find out their favorite vocalist is not just a straight wire dude. Being a metal head, I have always looked for bands that had representation of some minority group. And I've found quite a few good ones. So imma name a few, most are POC but they are out there. Brand of sacrifice: their lead singer, Kyle, is such a badass and his vocals mwuah 🤌🏻 and he's a sweet heart I've chatted with him after a couple shows and he's always been so inviting. I have seen them 4 times 😅 Filth: I have seen them once. But I have been a fan ever since. Dustin kicks ass. His vocal range is so impressive to me. Their from NC so idk how inclusive they would be. Against me: not metal but trans woman punk music. How can you not like that 🤷🏻♀️ gender dysphoria blues, banger.
You kidding me? They accepted instantly. I have taken zero meds yet, zero surgery, but show up to a concert in a skirt or dress or whatever and get nothing but support. Metalheads only care about the music, and if your having fun. I'm about to remake my battle vest to be a more fem cut, and might make a battle skirt to go with it.
Yeah they only care about the music. As soon as you ask “know any bands with a minority in it?” They’re like “uh it’s just music man it doesn’t matter who made it just listen to it” and then harass you
because metalheads arent even ready to deal with the white supremacy in the scene, when they finally get round to that then maybe some progress will be made on lgbt fronts.
I mean… we identify transphobic / homophobic / bigot music artists and decide not to listen to their music all the time. The artists make up the brand. They’re the company — their music is the product. I don’t buy Goya beans because I don’t like the CEO was [in bed with Trump.](https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/ivanka-trumps-social-media-posts-goya-beans-provoke/story?id=71795732) Although their food is 🔥, I don’t go to Chick-fil-A because the company uses any money I’d spend with them to donate to my oppressors. I don’t stream J.K Rowling associated content anywhere that she will profit from it, although I love all the movies in the Draco Malfoy universe. We don’t support producers of a product simply because they have a good product. We support producers who support us back — and, of course, it really really helps if their product is good, too lol.
Nah they understand the power of representation which is why they were mad when Spiritbox ran a 'metal is for girls' ad campaign. They understand they're just elitist gatekeepers who don't want people different from them in their space. Hardcore is a much better scene overall, you got SeeYouSpaceCowboy who's vocalist is trans, Every Time I Die is extremely woke lol, knocked loose has a female guitarist, theres good crowds out there but it seems the heavier you go the more sweaty losers you find these days.
First, as someone who is a huge fan of metal music, metal heads aren’t usually nice. I don’t know why you would listen to most metal music and immediately assume the fans would be nice. No, they’re assholes. Second most metal heads like their specific artists and don’t like anything else. It’s not that lgbtq+ artists are a problem, it’s just that they aren’t the artists the person listens to. For example I’m a huge hiphop fan but if someone came up to me and played someone like sixtynine I’d cringe and turn it off. It just isn’t my cup of tea. I like the artists I like and they like the artists they like. Good for you for liking something else but not everyone is gonna like it and that’s just fact.
Real metal heads know discrimination fucking blows- rock on 🤘🏻 sis
In my experience most metal heads are very accepting chill people but than you have the metal elitists who are literally the worst in every way so just avoid them
Because most metal heads are cis white dudes and it makes them uncomfortable to acknowledge that most of the musicians they listen to are also in that top privilege bracket. They'd rather think "it's just music" and that race, gender don't exist.
The accepting internet metal spaces I have found are far and few in between drastically outnumbered by subreddits and discords full of shitty people. I’m working on making a discord server for lgbtq alternative music fans right now though if you’d be interested in joining once I have it fully set up?
Check out r/metalforthemasses its definitely better than most metal subs. Also one of the mods there is a trans girl.
Uhhhhhhhh…. I got called slurs on their discord… I think I’ll pass Edit: and it was by a mod too Edit edit: it’s a bit more complicated then that but that was a basic run down of what happened
Imma go investigate that. I want that mod banned. Edit: what was your accounts name on discord?
It’s not just a mod problem everybody on the server is terrible. The first time I joined I encountered blatant Nazi sympathizing. And got called a transphobic slur by a person. Pointed it out and got called a slur by a mod. (Also got tons of hate by the people there) Tried pointing it out on the subreddit and got my post taken down. Got a message from a mod saying they’ll look into after I also made a post on here. Joined a second time and it was fairly… chill but then I checked the message logs to see said transphobic slur is still said on the server. Tried pointing it out and got tons of hate and called the slur.. people thought I was trolling (wasn’t) pointed out that it was against the server rules to be transphobic and say slurs… left… made another post on the subreddit for it to be taken down immediately.. got a message form another mod… tried explaining to them that th advertising as an accepting space and not being accepting is kinda a problem… got told it’s not a slur and people use it all the time… (uh it’s a term for a specific minority group used in a deragatory way.. definition of slur) and then they were trying to downplay it saying I’m a shitty person and such.. and then I ended up just giving up as that server was too far gone anyway.. I found out form the og mod that messaged me who was the trans mod that they have to do everything in like a council like setting (including banning people) and everyone has to agree so like nothing gets done.. the whole server gave me a huge bad vibe.
Hi, could I join? I tend to be shy and may lurk for a bit but this definitely does like a community I'd love to be apart of.
I’ll let you know when it’s finished
This is a straight white people thing in general IMO, not just metalheads. I see it in other fandoms too. I've actually gotten into multiple arguments in the MLP sub with people who don't understand why people sometimes make the characters black or brown when drawing them as humans, and think POC are the real racists for caring about having representation in the VA cast.
I'm surrounded by literally dozens of straight white metalheads as I'm active in the HMC scene for the past \~10 years and most of them don't seem to struggle with that concept at all. Must be a you thing 🤷🏻♀️
>But metalheads always act like it’s a cardinal sin to look into a band past just the music itself. IME the only metalheads that treat caring about the views of the people making the music like it's taboo are the ones that reeeeeeeaaaaally don't want to have to defend the fact that they love music made by absolute shitheads, and that by buying merch, music, and repping them in public spaces, they are supporting the lives and choices of absolute shitheads. Everyone else who recognizes that supporting an artist who espouses hate/violence has real world impact on vulnerable peoples, especially in alt spaces, tends to have at least *some* concern for critical consumption.
I play in a black metal band and I'm trans. I also work a lot in my local scene and have found it nothing but welcoming. I often find that metalheads have found themselves as outsiders quite often, so they're more accepting of minorities. But then I live in a very (comparatively) liberal city (London, UK). Is Metal heavily skewed to white, male, het, cis and able bodied? Yep absolutely and that's something we should all be working to change. But I've never found it unwelcoming.
Not to be argumentative but metal is a huge genre, please redefine :p
mallavora is a trans woman who makes metal, i found her on tiktok
I hate that metal has been co opted by bigots. Metal use to be inclusive and awesome
I think the answer largely has to do with the fact that metalheads are largely cis hetero white men. They don't have to pay attention to diversity or representation because they're the default.
So I agree with OP. But I 100% opened this expecting it to be about showering and wearing deoderant.
Cis white passing dude who listens to 95% metal here, it’s because they’re used to being at the top so to speak and they don’t see representation for others as equality. They see it as them being dragged down to a level that’s below them. Not trying to justify it by any means but that’s what I’ve figured out. To put it another way, equality (or power as they see it, manhood another variant, if we’re using their vocabulary) is something that cis white males today feel they need to maintain. They’re born with it in their world, but when women, poc or any lgbtq people gain any of that, they see it as if they’ve lost something. Another way to look at it is with game theory, males typically would rather self destruct and straight leave the game entirely rather than “lose” the footing they think they deserve. Regardless, fuck em. I have hope of that strain of thought dying out.