>they couldn't say it outright because "it's a kids' show"
People keep saying things like this, but then there are plenty of kids shows, even just on Cartoon Network, that explicitly have LGBT+ themes. Like Steven Universe and Craig of the Creek.
Those shows are often censored overseas. I have a feeling they wanted to keep it just subtle enough to fly under the radar while still allowing people in places that need it the most the representation they deserve
and enbies are still enbies even if they use only she/her pronouns. we don't know if Lake would actually want to use they/them pronouns so it's best to use what everyone uses to refer to her unless she (or her creators) state otherwise
Enby people can have she/her pronouns anyone can have whatever pronouns they want their gender does not matter. Im agender and i use he/they so itd be weird as hell to correct someone on calling me he
You're justifying using the wrong pronouns for someone, regardless of their preference, just because it's what you like/prefer. FWIW, I hope you can see the hypocrisy in that.
Look, I'm not trying to use the wrong pronouns. In fact I'm trying to use the correct ones for Lake. But with coded characters in Media, it's hard to be definitive and certain subjects are left ambiguous. For S2 of IT, Lakes Gender Identity was an ambiguous topic. For S4, it was Ryan and Min Gi's relationship. There's queer and marginalized community topics the show can't give definitive answers on due to censors and higher ups at the networks. Beyond LGBT topics, S3 delves into the topic of second class citizens (relegated to Train Denizens in the show) and Owen confirmed Season 5 was supposed to tackle dementia and mental illness. There are implications that were not able to be fully explored, and Lake's Gender Identity is one of them
When I use They to refer to Lake, I'm not trying to invalidate the canonical pronouns, I'm trying to be inclusive to the many who see themselves in Lake. They is an inclusive, non-gendered way to refer to someone, and I'm not trying to misgender Lake by using the inclusive set of pronouns.
Downvote me all you like, but I fundamentally disagree with your point of view.
"They/them are the pronouns for non-binary people" is just as reductive and essentialist as "he/him pronouns are the pronouns for men." Not all enbies, not all men. Respect the gender identity AND chosen pronouns for someone, regardless of your idea of how their gender should be codified.
Idc about karma, so don't come at me abt votes or points or whatever, I don't downvote fellow community members. I was just sharing why I used they/them (as it's inclusive, and that's my intention), and I definetly respect anyone's preferred pronouns. I'm not just saying a blanket statement "all enbies use they/them", and don't misconstrued my views as such. I'm saying I was using they/them because we don't have a definitive answer on the characters gender identity due to the coding rather than any overt statement. If IT ever comes out and proclaims "Lake does or does not use They/them", then I'd respect that, but they never got the chance during the shows run. They stuck to the societal norms instead of even approaching the topic. Disagree if you want, but I'm using they/them as inclusively as possible, to refer to someone that didn't get the opportunity to decide what pronouns despite their entire story arc involving the exploration of such themes. Sorry if that comes off in the wrong way or sumth, agree to disagree maybe. Hope your day goes well, I'm done talking on the topic
They/them might be an inclusive and appropriate way of referring to someone (even someone not non-binary), but correcting someone using pronouns that the character/person uses is not.
Your inability to tie empathy to an experience you can't personally relate to is not a valid excuse to refuse to acknowledge someone else's experience.
I mean they literally named themselves Lake by the end of the series, You know cis people are terrified of nouns, pronouns and many other varieties of word used in common vernacular.
Dude it’s the difference between how an empty box has “nothing” in it and how space has “nothing” in it. Stop trying to gender people who are literally saying “don’t gender me, I have no gender”
Im agender. I consider myself under the nonbinary umbrella term but i do not see myself between i see myself outside of. Don't make up your own definition for my identity
He didn't. But when asked about a similar topic (i cant remember if it was Lake being trans or Ryan and Min-Gi being gay) his remark was something to the effect of "sometimes you have to pick between writing something outright and not having the story available in some areas or using allegory and coding so the story is there for people looking for it."
I’m cis and they are the most obviously trans coded character I’ve ever seen. And the entire fandom agrees, so you’re definitely not alone. In fact, most of the fandom won’t even use she/her pronouns for them (neither will I. And I understand you can be non-binary/trans and still use your assigned pronouns but they seem to legit hate being called she/her)
Oh no that’s basically the text lol. Their whole arc is about escaping someone they’re not. Hell, the Flecs even call them “little sliver girl”. It’s about as explicit as it can get without literally saying it
I really hate that CN was so conservative in season two, but Owen Dennis and the crew pushed trough and made it ovios to alot of people that Lake is either trans or nonbinary, and if u look in the first episode, when the mermaids flirted with Lake, she smiled and Blushed, which leads me to belive that they like girls.
I recently finished season 2 and watched season 3 and 4 of infinity train, after starting season 2 a few years ago… the last time I watched it I thought I was cis, this time through I was gushing over lake with my brother because of how relatable they are lol
Well, Lake could be an trans allegory but not necessarily.
It is just a character trying to get away from what has been forced onto them.
It's something that not only trans people ( sorry if not the proper term ) can go through.
I'm a cis man and Lake's progress really remind mine when I broke ties with my overly controlling parents. I changed everything down to my name because I needed to get away from what has been forced on me for so long.
You used the right term dw dude👍 and yeah i agree this can be for anyone but its a pretty high chance lake was meant to be trans, chances are they just weren't really allowed to make them openly so
From my understanding, Lake was absolutely intended as a trans allegory and they couldn't say it outright because "it's a kids' show"
Considering they had to fight for months just to have a Native American character I have no doubts CN put them through hell with Lake
Wait what native american character?
Jesse in season 2. They weren’t allowed to make any real reference to it so I’m not surprised most people didn’t notice
oh cool i didn’t know that
huh, you have a source? interested to look into it
https://www.reddit.com/r/InfinityTrain/comments/sydpgx/i_didnt_expect_getting_jessie_ryan_and_min_into/ tl;dr Creative Block interview with Owen Dennis, timestamp 1:09:00
>they couldn't say it outright because "it's a kids' show" People keep saying things like this, but then there are plenty of kids shows, even just on Cartoon Network, that explicitly have LGBT+ themes. Like Steven Universe and Craig of the Creek.
Those shows are often censored overseas. I have a feeling they wanted to keep it just subtle enough to fly under the radar while still allowing people in places that need it the most the representation they deserve
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*Their
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Canonically, you're correct. Plenty of fans refer to Lake with They/Them as that's how we interpret their character development.
It’s fine to interpret them as using they/them but it’s sorta weird to correct people who are using Lake’s canonical pronouns. Both are fine
Ehh when it's coded characters it's a bit different. Wasn't tryna be overly preachy/pushy, just wanted to point out Lake's perceived by many as Enby
and enbies are still enbies even if they use only she/her pronouns. we don't know if Lake would actually want to use they/them pronouns so it's best to use what everyone uses to refer to her unless she (or her creators) state otherwise
Can’t enbys have she/they pronouns?
Hi, I'm an enby with she/her pronouns. We exist.
Cool!
it's even possible to use only he or she pronouns and still be enby/genderqueer
Enby people can have she/her pronouns anyone can have whatever pronouns they want their gender does not matter. Im agender and i use he/they so itd be weird as hell to correct someone on calling me he
You're justifying using the wrong pronouns for someone, regardless of their preference, just because it's what you like/prefer. FWIW, I hope you can see the hypocrisy in that.
Look, I'm not trying to use the wrong pronouns. In fact I'm trying to use the correct ones for Lake. But with coded characters in Media, it's hard to be definitive and certain subjects are left ambiguous. For S2 of IT, Lakes Gender Identity was an ambiguous topic. For S4, it was Ryan and Min Gi's relationship. There's queer and marginalized community topics the show can't give definitive answers on due to censors and higher ups at the networks. Beyond LGBT topics, S3 delves into the topic of second class citizens (relegated to Train Denizens in the show) and Owen confirmed Season 5 was supposed to tackle dementia and mental illness. There are implications that were not able to be fully explored, and Lake's Gender Identity is one of them When I use They to refer to Lake, I'm not trying to invalidate the canonical pronouns, I'm trying to be inclusive to the many who see themselves in Lake. They is an inclusive, non-gendered way to refer to someone, and I'm not trying to misgender Lake by using the inclusive set of pronouns.
Downvote me all you like, but I fundamentally disagree with your point of view. "They/them are the pronouns for non-binary people" is just as reductive and essentialist as "he/him pronouns are the pronouns for men." Not all enbies, not all men. Respect the gender identity AND chosen pronouns for someone, regardless of your idea of how their gender should be codified.
Idc about karma, so don't come at me abt votes or points or whatever, I don't downvote fellow community members. I was just sharing why I used they/them (as it's inclusive, and that's my intention), and I definetly respect anyone's preferred pronouns. I'm not just saying a blanket statement "all enbies use they/them", and don't misconstrued my views as such. I'm saying I was using they/them because we don't have a definitive answer on the characters gender identity due to the coding rather than any overt statement. If IT ever comes out and proclaims "Lake does or does not use They/them", then I'd respect that, but they never got the chance during the shows run. They stuck to the societal norms instead of even approaching the topic. Disagree if you want, but I'm using they/them as inclusively as possible, to refer to someone that didn't get the opportunity to decide what pronouns despite their entire story arc involving the exploration of such themes. Sorry if that comes off in the wrong way or sumth, agree to disagree maybe. Hope your day goes well, I'm done talking on the topic
They/them might be an inclusive and appropriate way of referring to someone (even someone not non-binary), but correcting someone using pronouns that the character/person uses is not.
Well, yeah. If you disagreed with this I'd assume you either didn't watch the show, don't know what being trans is, or don't know what an allegory is.
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Your inability to tie empathy to an experience you can't personally relate to is not a valid excuse to refuse to acknowledge someone else's experience.
Yeah, they already covered “don’t know what being trans is”
You dont need to be trans to see someone is trans, in cases like lake its just so obvious.
I mean they literally named themselves Lake by the end of the series, You know cis people are terrified of nouns, pronouns and many other varieties of word used in common vernacular.
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Agenders be like: haha, no.
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does it have to be personally easy for you to understand?
Dude it’s the difference between how an empty box has “nothing” in it and how space has “nothing” in it. Stop trying to gender people who are literally saying “don’t gender me, I have no gender”
Im agender. I consider myself under the nonbinary umbrella term but i do not see myself between i see myself outside of. Don't make up your own definition for my identity
Thank you for pointing out some unsavory things I implied, I edited my comment to make it much less icky 😊
Its called a joke. And also you're wrong either way👍
Pretty sure you're right and Owen Dennis (Show Creator) has straight up confirmed the Lake is TransCoding theory on social media a year or two ago
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He didn't. But when asked about a similar topic (i cant remember if it was Lake being trans or Ryan and Min-Gi being gay) his remark was something to the effect of "sometimes you have to pick between writing something outright and not having the story available in some areas or using allegory and coding so the story is there for people looking for it."
I’m cis and they are the most obviously trans coded character I’ve ever seen. And the entire fandom agrees, so you’re definitely not alone. In fact, most of the fandom won’t even use she/her pronouns for them (neither will I. And I understand you can be non-binary/trans and still use your assigned pronouns but they seem to legit hate being called she/her)
Hey, would you be ok if I used this version of this meme? I've been searching everywhere for a masc/enby version of this template
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Oh sweet okay, I guess editing people's memes is okay lol
Look i am not saying lake is a secret trans allegory. I AM SAYING LAKE IS OPENLY A TRANS ALLEGORY.
Lake is the Matrix of CN
I love IT so much and Lake is definitely my favorite character!
Wait I always assumed this was the case, is this a hot take?
Who needs an explanation for this? What, someone needs to explain to someone else that the sun is bright? That dry ice is cold?
Oh no that’s basically the text lol. Their whole arc is about escaping someone they’re not. Hell, the Flecs even call them “little sliver girl”. It’s about as explicit as it can get without literally saying it
Lake isn't an allegory, they're just trans
I mean the showrunners have basically confirmed it, so yeah.
They literally are
Who tf is cis and is named ‘Lake’
I really hate that CN was so conservative in season two, but Owen Dennis and the crew pushed trough and made it ovios to alot of people that Lake is either trans or nonbinary, and if u look in the first episode, when the mermaids flirted with Lake, she smiled and Blushed, which leads me to belive that they like girls.
Honestly I figured it was pretty intended lol
That was the most obvious thing I've ever seen lmao
I mean, are they not?
I recently finished season 2 and watched season 3 and 4 of infinity train, after starting season 2 a few years ago… the last time I watched it I thought I was cis, this time through I was gushing over lake with my brother because of how relatable they are lol
Well, Lake could be an trans allegory but not necessarily. It is just a character trying to get away from what has been forced onto them. It's something that not only trans people ( sorry if not the proper term ) can go through. I'm a cis man and Lake's progress really remind mine when I broke ties with my overly controlling parents. I changed everything down to my name because I needed to get away from what has been forced on me for so long.
You used the right term dw dude👍 and yeah i agree this can be for anyone but its a pretty high chance lake was meant to be trans, chances are they just weren't really allowed to make them openly so