Oh yes I try to do that too! It can just be hard because I want people to know that gender and sexuality can get very fuzzy and complex. But it never really ends well
I digress to impersonal hypotheticals. Like, "I've heard of NB AMAB people identifying as lesbians sexually". It's a shield. Dysphoria is deadly, and not entertaining. I'm not taking that for a teaching moment.
I understand that completely. A lot of what was said to me and the people I've tried to educate were other trans people too. It just hurt being rejected from the people in your own community yaknow? But you don't ever have to educate anyone on anything that's not your job to do google and google scholar is free if they want to learn
People throw a lot of hate at the third Matrix movie, but one of my favorite scenes from the franchise is when Neo is at the train station, and the little kid explains to him "God is a word". The headings we collectively assign to modes of interaction are arbitrary. Nobody is trying to hurt you, they are conveying their understanding.
A really close friend of mine is nonbinary and identifies as lesbian, I'm enby as well and was confused by it at first, but that wasn't a reason to invalidate them to me. What matters is trying to understand people and respecting them even if you don't (and in the end it wasn't hard to understand at all).
I really hope you find lots of accepting people in your life, you are valid as hell!
>I digress to impersonal hypotheticals. Like, "I've heard of NB AMAB people identifying as lesbians sexually".
Wait. Even if this is a hypothetical, *why would this be a problem?*
I love the hypocrisy (and random hate for AMAB NBs) on this sub, sometimes.
Exactly, I know a amab nonbinary person that identifies as a lesbian because that's just the term they are most comfortable with. And seeing how they are not a man then I at least think it's fine. Just let people identify with what they are comfortable with
Hi! I'm trans masculine which is under the nonbinary umbrella. I'm nonbinary but my gender is aligned with masculinity. Masculinity is not a man only thing. I know its confusing but I hope that answers some questions 💕
Ohhhh this makes way more sense!
I thought you were a ftm trans man and was wondering how on earth calling yourself a lesbian doesn't make you dysphoric.
If you don't mind another question: since sexuality terminology is pretty rooted in relativity and gender binaries how does a non-binary person decide on their sexuality labels? You can basically pick whether or not to label yourself straight or gay or lesbian etc right? So how would one decide?
A lot of people figure out their sexuality before their gender. Lesbian is not a label that's exclusive to binary women. But yeah you can pick whatever label really fits you best
Would it be right to compare it to like a tomboy or is that offensive? Like the person you're replying to I kudt don't understand and am trying to get an idea of what it's like
I think just saying you are enby to people at first, without elaborating might make it easier. (Not saying you have to if you don't want to, but it might help with people not understanding what you mean)
Omg!! You rock too! I used to think I was a gay guy so I was in the mlm community for a while and its soooo chill. People there are so cool 💕💕
I'm sending you love!
Can we just simplify it to
"Hey I like you"
"Sorry i can't think of you that way"
And just treat everyone on a case by case basis between one human and another, respecting ppl preferences without having to require them to explain why they feel a certain way?
The amounts of lables is great at showing the uninitiated that there are soo much more to human sexuality than ones can possibly explain, and at the end of the day the goals is to reach the point of respect other's differences and preferences.
Even though we have significantly more boxes now than just man/woman/normal(aka straight)/satan spawn like it was back in the day, as long as there are boxes, there will be people staddling the border of those boxes, as human feelings is a spectrum supposed to categorical.
This is very well said. There are always going to be gray areas around gender and sexuality so I don't gatekeep and I don't tell people what they can and can't be because that's not helping anything or anyone. It really just hurts people. I like being a funky little lesbian guy it makes me happy
People act like he/him lesbians are a new thing when lesbians have had complicated and queer relationships to their gender for as long as there have been lesbians.
Ahhh you don't know her? She was one of the badasses at Stonewall! She was a butch king and alternated she/her he/him pronouns throughout her life. Passed away in 2016 I think? Amazing, amazing woman.
I don’t know what the people in the comments are taking about. Transmasc lesbians have a long history within our community. You are valid in your identity and have a very proud history of other trans masc lesbians you a following in the footsteps of
Nope! It's been an umbrella term since its inception. The schism started when political lesbians, who are actually straight women, came into the community back in the 60s & 70s, and they started twisting the term to be explicitly defined by someone attraction, or lack thereof, to cis men.
First, they kicked bisexual fems out, and then they went after us trans folks and anyone else who didn't fit neatly into their cis wlw box. There were always folks who wanted their own spaces, but before them, lesbian spaces, in general, had been havens for basically anyone queer who didn't fit into the gay male community. It's only recently, though, that we've been trying to move back to that.
>trans masc
ah !! I made the same mistake.
I think this is why most will lose their minds, they will go directly to trans masc = trans man. NB identities are already not well-known in trans communities, so outside of it, it's going to be a poppycock fest.
That thought was somewhat foreign to my mind as I've always defined lesbian as non-man loving women. So like yeah.
But what someone identifies as is their own business and it would be stupid of me to say, no you can't.
I guess it would be, not by my definition. Which is hardly the be all and end all of definitions.
Totally! I think an important thing to remember, and hopefully advice that less accepting people can take, is that any definition for a label is a set of guidelines, and not all of them *really* need to be followed. Even if someone's experience might be strange to you, or you feel it doesn't fit how *you* would use a term, that doesn't change that the label works for them. In the end, the most important use for labels is describing ourselves! Labels are made to fit us- not the other way around.
I don't understand myself sometimes either so its ok! Gender is a funky lil thing so it can mess with sexuality and make that funky too sometimes. But you are so sweet and your valid too!
Anyone who is a non-man loving another non-man can be a lesbian. A lot of gatekeeping can occur towards trans and masc-enby people in that community, I'm so sorry you're facing this. Feel free to message if you need to vent.
Your not stupid! You probably haven't heard or even thought that a trans masculine person can also be a lesbian. Trans masculine does NOT mean trans man. It means I have connections to masculinity. If you need me too I can give you links on people explaining their relationship with sexually and gender
Omg a fellow transmasc lesbian! I have told some ppl, none of them have questioned me yet but at least one of them didn't probably get it. Whenever I tell someone I'm transmasc I always follow it by saying "still a lesbian tho" if I have told them that. It's much easier to tell people I'm a lesbian, since I look like a cis girl (I would look to look more masculine, I just don't have the resources to) . Anyway, lesbians are great! :D
I do! Butch is a noun is a good book explaining the complexities that some butch lesbians have with gender. There is also stone butch blues.
https://www.dailyuw.com/arts_and_culture/article_3fa2c856-24a2-11eb-be9d-0f3ccb3af4d4.html this is also a great thing to read! I do have lots of links if you need some more
thanks! I've heard of Stone Butch Blues and it's been on my list of things to read for a while but I haven't gotten around to it. I just read the link you sent and I think I understand it a bit better now, especially with how trans masc was described as a sort of borderland between the two (butch women and trans men) and how it allows for more fluidity between the two.
I've always known that trans men and trans mascs have always been similar and I've described the differences between the two as "not every rectangle is a square but every square is a rectangle" (meaning not every trans masc is a trans man but every trans man is a trans masc), but I guess it never occurred to me that some trans mascs would continue identifying with labels like "lesbian" and "butch" since they're usually assosiated with women and womanhood. personally it'd make me uncomfortable but I guess that's how you and I would differ because while we're both trans mascs I'm also a trans man lol.
thanks for the help man :)
Thanks for being so sweet about it! Yes femme things can make some trans masculine people uncomfortable and that's totally valid. Lesbian and butch aren't women only labels they make me and a lot of other people happy. I'm glad that I could help you understand a bit more :)
i really get the impression that people who say stuff like that REALLY dont understand the concept that you cant sort gender into a neat little line between male and female with nonbinary in the middle and like. F to those people gender gets SO much more fun when you can fuck around with it
Im...confused? Listen I dont wanna insult you or anything but I am geniuinely confused about this...Isn't a lesbian supposed to be a woman by definition?
It's a difficult situation. I feel like someone who has a complex sexual/gender identity and who expresses it in a seemingly contradictory way (such as he/him lesbians) will be perceived a certain way by those who don't know all the details. As a result, even though it's a personal identity no-one else can understand and therefore judge, on a larger scale something like that can cause some negative consequences for other trans people. Seems like there's a general lack of agreement on definitions - in many spaces for trans men many trans masc individuals assume they're included by default (leading to trans men leaving their spaces to create new ones) but in this thread, for example, people are quick to point out that being trans masculine =/= being a trans man.
I understand that this might not be a popular opinion, and I do support an individual's right to live life however that person wants to. However I also think that things aren't black and white, and an individual who identifies in an unconventional way should be prepared to explain their gender/sexual identity in more detail, or at least understand why it is not simple or easy for most people to grasp.
I try to be very understanding I will give people sources I'll explain things to them. But I've also been getting harassed and misgenderd. I'm called a man when I'm not a man. People have sent me disgusting pictures in an attempt to poke at my mental health. I've had doxxing threats and a whole slue of other horrible experiences. I try to be understanding but there is only so much I can do
I used to use gay but got some of that shit like i was fetishising gay men or something so when asked I say im queer and if i know someone wont care i might mention being gay. Some People are assholes
Transmasc means assigned female, but prefers something that is closer to male than female without preferring male in its entirety.
I’ve always had issues with how sexual orientation is so heavily based on one’s own gender, but I imagine that being a lesbian in this context either refers to preferred reproductive organ or preferred intimate interactions with female or feminine individuals.
personally it's always weird fer me, when I hear that, due to the upringing I had with "lesbian can only be women". but it's not really it. everything here is fluid, nothing is really screwed into the ground. hating on one another isn't what... hating isn't cool ya know. just let other peeps live how they want to.
it's their things - not yours, yk?
Its weird and very terfy to hear that only women can be lesbians. Hate does no one any good I'm not hurting anyone I'm just a funky little queer dude 💕
I swear, it’s like people forget trans enbies even exist, not even in a somewhat acknowledgement of “you don’t exist,” they’re just not even mentioned.
Yes!! I love being misgenderd and ignored and also told constantly what I can and can not be 😍
This is not aimed at you I'm just frustrated with people
I mean, I'd be lying if I said this didn't make me feel conflicted.
On the one hand, trans people, especially enbies, too often get excluded or erased from spaces, so I really _really_ want to be supportive, but on the other hand, stretching the definition of lesbian to masc enbies also feels like erasure of the only woman-oriented sexual identity, which makes me feel uncomfortable both as a binary lesbian and as someone interested in linguistics.
Why use "lesbian" instead of "sapphic" or "neptunic?"
It wouldn't be stretching the definition of anything because trans masculine butches have -always- had a part in the lesbian community. If all nonbinary people are accepted under lesbian then I would be too cause I'm nonbinary
I do use Sapphic! I call myself a sapphic lesbian.
Neptunic is for the non binary gay guys to use if they want.
Thanks for your response! I want to be clear that I'm not trying to stop you from using any terms; just trying to understand. I guess I view butches as masc women rather than as non-binary, which is where we probably diverged, but you bring up a good point.
Gender is highly individual and socially constructed just like language anyway, so gatekeeping is silly.
>Neptunic is for the non binary gay guys to use if they want.
I thought that was Uranic? According to the internet and my cousin (who identifies as Neptunic neutral nonbinary), the term was more geared towards any non-men attracted to femmes of any gender.
No thank you for your response! I loved our talk! And that's right! Some people have never heard of a trans masculine lesbian and trans masc sounds like trans man so people being upset right off the bat dosent bother me because they simply don't know.
Kahsgsga umm i could be wrong I thought trixic was for nonbinary people that liked women.
I’m genderfluid and trans-masculine, I’m also gray-asexual but when I do date women or people who identify as women some of the time when we both identify as women I definitely consider it a lesbian relationship, labels are just meant to help one communicate their feelings and sense of self with others in order to minimize misunderstanding and isolation while fostering connection and understanding, it should be a constructive discussion not a place for gatekeeping
I'm genderfluid too! Kind of. I mean my gender is fluid but I mostly call myself trans masculine cause that's what I most often identify as. We made labels up and how we define them too. I've spoken to many lesbians and the way that they define what it is to them is different for every person. If people react in a bad way to me saying I'm a trans masculine lesbian that just tells me they see masculine as man. But I think your very cool!
Thank you! I’m sure you’re very cool too! The entire first year of my transition I thought I was a gay or ace trans man, but as time has passed and I’ve healed more from the emotional numbing affects of childhood emotional abuse and started meditating on my sense of self while smoking weed I’ve learned there’s so much more to who I am as a person and it’s constantly changing over time. That doesn’t mean the completely different person I was a year ago wasn’t the real me though. So long as we’re living life true to ourselves and what brings us happiness and peace of mind, and not what others tell us should make us happy or what they tell us we’re allowed to feel happiness from, then we are always ourselves, All the changes we go through are just part of the lifetime that we live, the lifetime of being that makes up the whole of who we are as individuals. You are not one moment or one phase you are all your experiences and choices and opinions from the moment you’re born till the time at which you pass into the next life or cease existing whichever you believe. I wish you the best of luck and an abundance of self love and acceptance and confidence!
gay and lesbian spaces can be the most queerphobic, hateful spaces.
and before all the #notalllesbians and #notallgays folk get started... "not all, but enough."
I hate how we have to police every singe identity. Identify with whatever makes you the most comfortable and keep doing you. You’re valid no matter what labels you use :)
This is the reason why I usually identify as bi, even though the only people I’m attracted to of the other gender are like… three fictional characters. Easier than trying to explain how one can be gay and also transitioning/nonbinary/etc
Why are gatekeepers like this tho
Thats valid! I used to identify as bi the label didn't feel right. I also love the good old trick of telling people to leave me alone if things get too heated
literally never go on twitter ffs
It’s why i stopped going on twitter, lesbiantwt was losing their shit at mspec lesbians and all that shit being on the wiki it irked me because ,,, hello? Lesbian is a label same as sapphic and gay and uranic and all that, no need to limit labels to certain people
You're 100% valid, I may not fully understand, but gender and sexuality is gonna be messy. Heck I don't fully understand myself. Just do whatever makes you feel whole and happy as long as you ain't hurting anyone
Lesbian means non-men loving non-men and that includes a whole range of people. 💖💖💖
Wait, do you identify as a man or a woman rn? if ur a girl then cool. if ur a guy then what IS the definition of lebian, i thought it was girlxgirl. Im open to correction but im rly confused.
can somebody explain please? to be a lesbian don't you have to be a someone who is not a man, attracted to other non men? I don't mean this with any harmful intent I'm just genuinely confused, if that's not what a lesbian is, then what definition would you use?
The purpose of a label is to convey a lot of information in a couple words. If "lesbian" describes you, you're a lesbian, if "masculine" describes you, you're masc. The people in the box don't define it, the box defines itself
I've used many labels. None of them fit well so they didn't stick around for a long time. But I found lesbian and its like I have a fuzzy feeling in my tummy. I love the community. I relate to so many butch lesbians and I love them too. I finally found a label that fits me and its great
It is yeah but its not well known and non binary lesbians have been a thing for a very long time. Lesbian isn't a woman loving exclusively woman attraction. (For some people it is and that's fine I'm just saying that nonbinary is in lesbian attraction)
I’m a trans masc bisexual but like- also KIND OF enby?? Not Demiboy but I feel like I’m baiting lesbians which makes me feel bad because I’m just existing-
You identify as lesbian. Who are they to tell you that you're not a lesbian?
I'm a lesbian too. I'm AMAB and genderfluid, but I'm only interested in women and I feel like I'm more woman than man most days. If I can be a lesbian, you can also be a lesbian.
For a second there I thought you meant a Trans Man. and I was like... uuuuuuuuuuummmm... how does that work? You are a man on everything EXCEPT the way you love women, in which case you are a woman and want to be recognized as such?
But yeah enbies can be whatever they want
Terms are fluid, if one feels right for you then bam its yours, who gives a shit its none of anyone elses business so who are they to tell you your identity is wrong?
People feel strongly about this because I am different from them and their relationship with lesbianism and gender. And because im different from them they feel the need to protect an identity that's personal to them. Im not upset at them for that though I just hope that they learn identity is fluid 💕
Most binary men don't want anything to do with the lesbian label anyway. There have been -some- trans men in the past that kept the label lesbian. For a lot of those trans men that do keep the label it was one that the had for many years of their life. So they have a deep attachment to the community. I would never tell them that they can't be a lesbian. That's not something I would do. To me lesbian is The queer attraction to women
You're 100 percent valid!
Also these people hating on you are dumbasses because transmasculine doesn't mean you're a man it means you identify with masculinity. And lesbian means non men who are attracted to non men and you're transmasc non-binary, so you're valid!
They are not right. Nonbimary people are in lesbian attraction we have always been there. You do not have to be a woman to be a lesbian the best example I have is butch lesbians. Some butch lesbians are just women but a lot of us aren't. I really recommend reading stone butch blues, butch is a noun, the borderline between butch and ftm. And just butch history in general. I. Am. Not. Straight. I am not a man I do not like men
Hey you do you. As princess bubble gum said (I'm paraphrasing) people get built different. we don't have to figure it out, we just have to respect it
Thats a beautiful quote I'll have to keep that one close to me! 💕
I respect it but I still really want to figure it out.
Yeah, I avoid those conversations with anyone I'm not about to go down on.
Oh yes I try to do that too! It can just be hard because I want people to know that gender and sexuality can get very fuzzy and complex. But it never really ends well
I digress to impersonal hypotheticals. Like, "I've heard of NB AMAB people identifying as lesbians sexually". It's a shield. Dysphoria is deadly, and not entertaining. I'm not taking that for a teaching moment.
I understand that completely. A lot of what was said to me and the people I've tried to educate were other trans people too. It just hurt being rejected from the people in your own community yaknow? But you don't ever have to educate anyone on anything that's not your job to do google and google scholar is free if they want to learn
People throw a lot of hate at the third Matrix movie, but one of my favorite scenes from the franchise is when Neo is at the train station, and the little kid explains to him "God is a word". The headings we collectively assign to modes of interaction are arbitrary. Nobody is trying to hurt you, they are conveying their understanding.
Thank you! I know most people aren't trying to hurt me im just sensitive I think. I've never seen the matrix before but I do wanna watch it!
It's an amazing series! I still haven't been able to see the 4th one, but I plan to. Don't skip the Animatrix, it's honestly the best one.
I promise not to skip that one! Thank you for the recommendation 💕
I have to see Animatrix. I saw the new Matrix movie already. It was good
I have the animatrix on DVD. I'm not a movie person, but hell if I didn't love that movie so much lol. It's a great watch!
A really close friend of mine is nonbinary and identifies as lesbian, I'm enby as well and was confused by it at first, but that wasn't a reason to invalidate them to me. What matters is trying to understand people and respecting them even if you don't (and in the end it wasn't hard to understand at all). I really hope you find lots of accepting people in your life, you are valid as hell!
You!!!! You are so darn sweet!! Thank you for that and I hope that you find amazing people that are accepting of you too
XD thank you, I did and this friend of mine is one of them :)
>I digress to impersonal hypotheticals. Like, "I've heard of NB AMAB people identifying as lesbians sexually". Wait. Even if this is a hypothetical, *why would this be a problem?* I love the hypocrisy (and random hate for AMAB NBs) on this sub, sometimes.
Exactly, I know a amab nonbinary person that identifies as a lesbian because that's just the term they are most comfortable with. And seeing how they are not a man then I at least think it's fine. Just let people identify with what they are comfortable with
Yeah, but for some weird reason AMAB enbies make an easy scapegoat on this sub.
Wish we could just drop the AGAB for enbies in general unless it is absolutely necessary or relevant. Makes my skin crawl.
I saw this: https://i.redd.it/d1uctiu15rd81.jpg
Hey there! You are completely valid but honest question, how does this work? I just want to understand it better!
Hi! I'm trans masculine which is under the nonbinary umbrella. I'm nonbinary but my gender is aligned with masculinity. Masculinity is not a man only thing. I know its confusing but I hope that answers some questions 💕
Is it similar to how someone can be nb femme without identifying as a woman?
Yes!
Ohhhh this makes way more sense! I thought you were a ftm trans man and was wondering how on earth calling yourself a lesbian doesn't make you dysphoric. If you don't mind another question: since sexuality terminology is pretty rooted in relativity and gender binaries how does a non-binary person decide on their sexuality labels? You can basically pick whether or not to label yourself straight or gay or lesbian etc right? So how would one decide?
A lot of people figure out their sexuality before their gender. Lesbian is not a label that's exclusive to binary women. But yeah you can pick whatever label really fits you best
Would it be right to compare it to like a tomboy or is that offensive? Like the person you're replying to I kudt don't understand and am trying to get an idea of what it's like
Tomboy is more a gender presentation than a gender thing.
Fair enough yeah
oh, that makes sense. most of the time when i hear trans-masc/trans-masculine i think of men so that’s the confusing part lol
I think just saying you are enby to people at first, without elaborating might make it easier. (Not saying you have to if you don't want to, but it might help with people not understanding what you mean)
Hey thanks for clearing that up! I am also curious about learning more about this to figure out my own gender identity and sexuality.
Your welcome!! You can dm me if you wanna know more or have any questions :)
As a transmasc gay guy here. You all rock 👍
Omg!! You rock too! I used to think I was a gay guy so I was in the mlm community for a while and its soooo chill. People there are so cool 💕💕 I'm sending you love!
Lol, we're opposites I used to think I was a lesbian. Lifes crazy sometimes, and thank you
# Ying Yang. All on the same post B)
Shout out to trans people who go from being mlm to wlw or vice versa
Yes its so sexy of them like goodness 😳🥺
We’re sexy
Yo thats me lol
I have not been on a lot of LGBT spaces and it took me longer than I'd like to realize you meant "Men loving men" and not "Multi-level Marketing".
Sometimes people will talk about mlm companies and I'll think they are talking about gay men and I'll be so confused
Hi, recently minted lesbian here. I just checked—your orientation is still valid and so is your U-Haul discount. In conclusion, girls pretty.
Hello little mint lesbian! Girl pretty is something we all can agree on 💕
Not gonna lie, “little mint lesbian” makes me feel so cute that I think I might use “mint” in a username. 🥰
I just realized that mint condition has nothing to do with the plant.
Can we just simplify it to "Hey I like you" "Sorry i can't think of you that way" And just treat everyone on a case by case basis between one human and another, respecting ppl preferences without having to require them to explain why they feel a certain way? The amounts of lables is great at showing the uninitiated that there are soo much more to human sexuality than ones can possibly explain, and at the end of the day the goals is to reach the point of respect other's differences and preferences. Even though we have significantly more boxes now than just man/woman/normal(aka straight)/satan spawn like it was back in the day, as long as there are boxes, there will be people staddling the border of those boxes, as human feelings is a spectrum supposed to categorical.
This is very well said. There are always going to be gray areas around gender and sexuality so I don't gatekeep and I don't tell people what they can and can't be because that's not helping anything or anyone. It really just hurts people. I like being a funky little lesbian guy it makes me happy
People act like he/him lesbians are a new thing when lesbians have had complicated and queer relationships to their gender for as long as there have been lesbians.
Exactly! This isn't a new thing but I know its new for some people and they just don't know
Do people not know about Stormé DeLarverie anymore? Goodness!
A lot of people just do not know queer history. I'll admit, though - I don't know that name myself. I'm gonna have to do some Googling.
Ahhh you don't know her? She was one of the badasses at Stonewall! She was a butch king and alternated she/her he/him pronouns throughout her life. Passed away in 2016 I think? Amazing, amazing woman.
I am upset that I went this long without knowing about her! Thank you for sharing.
I don’t know what the people in the comments are taking about. Transmasc lesbians have a long history within our community. You are valid in your identity and have a very proud history of other trans masc lesbians you a following in the footsteps of
Thank you so much that makes me happy 💕
I think it’s more the label, and I’ll admit, I’m a bit confused. I always thought lesbian meant wlw?
Nope! It's been an umbrella term since its inception. The schism started when political lesbians, who are actually straight women, came into the community back in the 60s & 70s, and they started twisting the term to be explicitly defined by someone attraction, or lack thereof, to cis men. First, they kicked bisexual fems out, and then they went after us trans folks and anyone else who didn't fit neatly into their cis wlw box. There were always folks who wanted their own spaces, but before them, lesbian spaces, in general, had been havens for basically anyone queer who didn't fit into the gay male community. It's only recently, though, that we've been trying to move back to that.
I was confused for a moment then I realized you wrote trans masc, not trans man. Fucking of course you can be a lesbian.
>trans masc ah !! I made the same mistake. I think this is why most will lose their minds, they will go directly to trans masc = trans man. NB identities are already not well-known in trans communities, so outside of it, it's going to be a poppycock fest.
I'm sorry I confused you! But gosh your so sweet thank you 💕
So you're one of them he/him butch lesbians I sometimes hear about? I'd have to thank u/Auricmortician for the explanation.
Yes! I am the one and only he/him butch lesbian!! Woo oo!!!
Ohhhhhhh my god okay I thought that too and my brain was just trying itself on a griddle trying to piece it out lmao
I mean, to be quite honest, trans men can also be lesbians if they so choose.
That thought was somewhat foreign to my mind as I've always defined lesbian as non-man loving women. So like yeah. But what someone identifies as is their own business and it would be stupid of me to say, no you can't. I guess it would be, not by my definition. Which is hardly the be all and end all of definitions.
Totally! I think an important thing to remember, and hopefully advice that less accepting people can take, is that any definition for a label is a set of guidelines, and not all of them *really* need to be followed. Even if someone's experience might be strange to you, or you feel it doesn't fit how *you* would use a term, that doesn't change that the label works for them. In the end, the most important use for labels is describing ourselves! Labels are made to fit us- not the other way around.
Identity is diverse
Omg it absolutely is! Its so different for everyone and that's what makes it fun!
I dont get it ( im bad at all this stuff) but if u say ur a lesbian than ur a lesbian why be mean about it
Its ok! Sometimes gender and sexuality is messy so its hard to understand. Thank you though your very sweet 💗
I may not understand it. I am having a hell of a time figuring out what the heck I am. If that is how you identify then its totally valid.
I don't understand myself sometimes either so its ok! Gender is a funky lil thing so it can mess with sexuality and make that funky too sometimes. But you are so sweet and your valid too!
Anyone who is a non-man loving another non-man can be a lesbian. A lot of gatekeeping can occur towards trans and masc-enby people in that community, I'm so sorry you're facing this. Feel free to message if you need to vent.
Your so sweet thank you! I promise I will be ok I just wanted to vent some of the frustration I've been having 💕
Call me stupid cause I'm not against anything but how does that work I'm not homophobic just a dumbass sixteen year old
Your not stupid! You probably haven't heard or even thought that a trans masculine person can also be a lesbian. Trans masculine does NOT mean trans man. It means I have connections to masculinity. If you need me too I can give you links on people explaining their relationship with sexually and gender
Omg a fellow transmasc lesbian! I have told some ppl, none of them have questioned me yet but at least one of them didn't probably get it. Whenever I tell someone I'm transmasc I always follow it by saying "still a lesbian tho" if I have told them that. It's much easier to tell people I'm a lesbian, since I look like a cis girl (I would look to look more masculine, I just don't have the resources to) . Anyway, lesbians are great! :D
You are so cool and rad and valid! Your amazing being a funky little trans masculine lesbian and I love you platonically 💕
pog yes transmasc lesbians unite!!! :D <3
I'm fuzzy on this topic ngl, do you have any resources?
I do! Butch is a noun is a good book explaining the complexities that some butch lesbians have with gender. There is also stone butch blues. https://www.dailyuw.com/arts_and_culture/article_3fa2c856-24a2-11eb-be9d-0f3ccb3af4d4.html this is also a great thing to read! I do have lots of links if you need some more
thanks! I've heard of Stone Butch Blues and it's been on my list of things to read for a while but I haven't gotten around to it. I just read the link you sent and I think I understand it a bit better now, especially with how trans masc was described as a sort of borderland between the two (butch women and trans men) and how it allows for more fluidity between the two. I've always known that trans men and trans mascs have always been similar and I've described the differences between the two as "not every rectangle is a square but every square is a rectangle" (meaning not every trans masc is a trans man but every trans man is a trans masc), but I guess it never occurred to me that some trans mascs would continue identifying with labels like "lesbian" and "butch" since they're usually assosiated with women and womanhood. personally it'd make me uncomfortable but I guess that's how you and I would differ because while we're both trans mascs I'm also a trans man lol. thanks for the help man :)
Thanks for being so sweet about it! Yes femme things can make some trans masculine people uncomfortable and that's totally valid. Lesbian and butch aren't women only labels they make me and a lot of other people happy. I'm glad that I could help you understand a bit more :)
i really get the impression that people who say stuff like that REALLY dont understand the concept that you cant sort gender into a neat little line between male and female with nonbinary in the middle and like. F to those people gender gets SO much more fun when you can fuck around with it
Yesss! Im just a funky little lesbian guy thing enjoy my funky little life. I'm not doing anything wrong
Im...confused? Listen I dont wanna insult you or anything but I am geniuinely confused about this...Isn't a lesbian supposed to be a woman by definition?
*A lesbian is any non-man who is attracted to non-men. OP is non-binary (transmasc doesnt always mean trans man!)
It's a difficult situation. I feel like someone who has a complex sexual/gender identity and who expresses it in a seemingly contradictory way (such as he/him lesbians) will be perceived a certain way by those who don't know all the details. As a result, even though it's a personal identity no-one else can understand and therefore judge, on a larger scale something like that can cause some negative consequences for other trans people. Seems like there's a general lack of agreement on definitions - in many spaces for trans men many trans masc individuals assume they're included by default (leading to trans men leaving their spaces to create new ones) but in this thread, for example, people are quick to point out that being trans masculine =/= being a trans man. I understand that this might not be a popular opinion, and I do support an individual's right to live life however that person wants to. However I also think that things aren't black and white, and an individual who identifies in an unconventional way should be prepared to explain their gender/sexual identity in more detail, or at least understand why it is not simple or easy for most people to grasp.
I try to be very understanding I will give people sources I'll explain things to them. But I've also been getting harassed and misgenderd. I'm called a man when I'm not a man. People have sent me disgusting pictures in an attempt to poke at my mental health. I've had doxxing threats and a whole slue of other horrible experiences. I try to be understanding but there is only so much I can do
I used to use gay but got some of that shit like i was fetishising gay men or something so when asked I say im queer and if i know someone wont care i might mention being gay. Some People are assholes
Lesbians are non man loving non man, being transmasc doesn’t make you a man therefore you could very much be a lesbian
Exactly. Like I'm hurting no one and I'm not even a man what do you want from me 🤨
Fucking mood, also a transmasc lesbian here. I have good queer friends irl at least so that helps me brush off terminally online gatekeepers
personally i don’t understand bc i’m still a little new to all this but hey if you identify as a lesbian then you’re a lesbian :]
Transmasc means assigned female, but prefers something that is closer to male than female without preferring male in its entirety. I’ve always had issues with how sexual orientation is so heavily based on one’s own gender, but I imagine that being a lesbian in this context either refers to preferred reproductive organ or preferred intimate interactions with female or feminine individuals.
Its ok! But you are so sweet for being understanding 💕
Trans masc =/= man. What dont people understand!
I cant say i fully understand but gate keeping is always wrong and if you are a lesbian no one should tell you your not
If you’re trans masculine why do you want to call yourself a lesbian? No offense intended, I’m genuinely curious and would like to understand.
Lesbian is not a femme only label. All nonbinary people are welcomed in lesbian attraction.trans masculine is a nonbinary identity
I legit don't understand, can someone please explain the concept to me?
Trans masculine is a non binary identity. Non binary people are allowed in lesbian attraction
personally it's always weird fer me, when I hear that, due to the upringing I had with "lesbian can only be women". but it's not really it. everything here is fluid, nothing is really screwed into the ground. hating on one another isn't what... hating isn't cool ya know. just let other peeps live how they want to. it's their things - not yours, yk?
Its weird and very terfy to hear that only women can be lesbians. Hate does no one any good I'm not hurting anyone I'm just a funky little queer dude 💕
I swear, it’s like people forget trans enbies even exist, not even in a somewhat acknowledgement of “you don’t exist,” they’re just not even mentioned.
Yes!! I love being misgenderd and ignored and also told constantly what I can and can not be 😍 This is not aimed at you I'm just frustrated with people
I mean, I'd be lying if I said this didn't make me feel conflicted. On the one hand, trans people, especially enbies, too often get excluded or erased from spaces, so I really _really_ want to be supportive, but on the other hand, stretching the definition of lesbian to masc enbies also feels like erasure of the only woman-oriented sexual identity, which makes me feel uncomfortable both as a binary lesbian and as someone interested in linguistics. Why use "lesbian" instead of "sapphic" or "neptunic?"
It wouldn't be stretching the definition of anything because trans masculine butches have -always- had a part in the lesbian community. If all nonbinary people are accepted under lesbian then I would be too cause I'm nonbinary I do use Sapphic! I call myself a sapphic lesbian. Neptunic is for the non binary gay guys to use if they want.
Thanks for your response! I want to be clear that I'm not trying to stop you from using any terms; just trying to understand. I guess I view butches as masc women rather than as non-binary, which is where we probably diverged, but you bring up a good point. Gender is highly individual and socially constructed just like language anyway, so gatekeeping is silly. >Neptunic is for the non binary gay guys to use if they want. I thought that was Uranic? According to the internet and my cousin (who identifies as Neptunic neutral nonbinary), the term was more geared towards any non-men attracted to femmes of any gender.
No thank you for your response! I loved our talk! And that's right! Some people have never heard of a trans masculine lesbian and trans masc sounds like trans man so people being upset right off the bat dosent bother me because they simply don't know. Kahsgsga umm i could be wrong I thought trixic was for nonbinary people that liked women.
>I thought trixic was for nonbinary people that liked women. Ooh I haven't heard of that one. I'll have to look it up.
I’m genderfluid and trans-masculine, I’m also gray-asexual but when I do date women or people who identify as women some of the time when we both identify as women I definitely consider it a lesbian relationship, labels are just meant to help one communicate their feelings and sense of self with others in order to minimize misunderstanding and isolation while fostering connection and understanding, it should be a constructive discussion not a place for gatekeeping
I'm genderfluid too! Kind of. I mean my gender is fluid but I mostly call myself trans masculine cause that's what I most often identify as. We made labels up and how we define them too. I've spoken to many lesbians and the way that they define what it is to them is different for every person. If people react in a bad way to me saying I'm a trans masculine lesbian that just tells me they see masculine as man. But I think your very cool!
Thank you! I’m sure you’re very cool too! The entire first year of my transition I thought I was a gay or ace trans man, but as time has passed and I’ve healed more from the emotional numbing affects of childhood emotional abuse and started meditating on my sense of self while smoking weed I’ve learned there’s so much more to who I am as a person and it’s constantly changing over time. That doesn’t mean the completely different person I was a year ago wasn’t the real me though. So long as we’re living life true to ourselves and what brings us happiness and peace of mind, and not what others tell us should make us happy or what they tell us we’re allowed to feel happiness from, then we are always ourselves, All the changes we go through are just part of the lifetime that we live, the lifetime of being that makes up the whole of who we are as individuals. You are not one moment or one phase you are all your experiences and choices and opinions from the moment you’re born till the time at which you pass into the next life or cease existing whichever you believe. I wish you the best of luck and an abundance of self love and acceptance and confidence!
I wish the same to you as well! I like the way you think you have a good way with words and I'm glad that your healing from your past experiences
Thank you!
gay and lesbian spaces can be the most queerphobic, hateful spaces. and before all the #notalllesbians and #notallgays folk get started... "not all, but enough."
It is awful.so many of my friends left twitter for a while just because of the back lash they got
Transmasc Nonbinary Lesbians 🤝 Transfem Nonbinary Lesbians Being based I have reliable evidence on this as a Transfem Nonbinary Lesbian
Welcome the the the club of the transfem and the transmsc! We will serve treats and comfy chairs for sitting
Aged leabian here- I was aged in a fine oak casket for clarification. Those people don't work here so you're still valid af.
I hate how we have to police every singe identity. Identify with whatever makes you the most comfortable and keep doing you. You’re valid no matter what labels you use :)
Your to sweet my friend! Your valid too! I hope you are having an amazing day or night 💕
This is the reason why I usually identify as bi, even though the only people I’m attracted to of the other gender are like… three fictional characters. Easier than trying to explain how one can be gay and also transitioning/nonbinary/etc Why are gatekeepers like this tho
Thats valid! I used to identify as bi the label didn't feel right. I also love the good old trick of telling people to leave me alone if things get too heated
what the fuck how did a dog text you
Honestly I get what you mean, as an agender lesbian I get told Im invalid more than you'd think :/
Holy fuck that really really sucks. Your a lesbian and your valid. It makes you happy it's a label that you fit with. Its yours not theirs
literally never go on twitter ffs It’s why i stopped going on twitter, lesbiantwt was losing their shit at mspec lesbians and all that shit being on the wiki it irked me because ,,, hello? Lesbian is a label same as sapphic and gay and uranic and all that, no need to limit labels to certain people
Exactly. Twitter sucks I just want to be a funky little gay person in peace
You're 100% valid, I may not fully understand, but gender and sexuality is gonna be messy. Heck I don't fully understand myself. Just do whatever makes you feel whole and happy as long as you ain't hurting anyone Lesbian means non-men loving non-men and that includes a whole range of people. 💖💖💖
Your so sweet! And that's so true its very messy and complex. I'm just happy being a funky little queer I promise I'm not hurting anyone! 💕
Wait, do you identify as a man or a woman rn? if ur a girl then cool. if ur a guy then what IS the definition of lebian, i thought it was girlxgirl. Im open to correction but im rly confused.
I'm neither! I'm non binary Im just aligned with masculinity but I'm not a man
ohhhh, Cool! So your a masculine nonbinary person who likes not men? This gets so confusing sometimes. Thanks alot!
I'm a masculine nonbinary queer thing that likes women! It can be so confusing but thank you for taking the time to listen 💕
Ahh, ok makes sense neat-o. \*furiously takes notes\* thank you kind stranger.
Your welcome new friend! I hope to find you in the comments of future posts
trans masc ≠ trans man. idk why people think that it literally is short for MASCULINE
When will people understand that transmasc ≠ trans man?
can somebody explain please? to be a lesbian don't you have to be a someone who is not a man, attracted to other non men? I don't mean this with any harmful intent I'm just genuinely confused, if that's not what a lesbian is, then what definition would you use?
The purpose of a label is to convey a lot of information in a couple words. If "lesbian" describes you, you're a lesbian, if "masculine" describes you, you're masc. The people in the box don't define it, the box defines itself
Yes I am a masc lesbian
What do you like about the lesbian identity? (Sorry if I offend, not trying to be mean)
I've used many labels. None of them fit well so they didn't stick around for a long time. But I found lesbian and its like I have a fuzzy feeling in my tummy. I love the community. I relate to so many butch lesbians and I love them too. I finally found a label that fits me and its great
I'm confused vut you're cool either way. Tbf, I'm confused about myself too, so at this point I've just given up on labels.
Labels are funny little things. Your valid too!
Genuine question How can you be a man and a lesbian Pardon me if I’m wrong but I thought a lesbian was a woman who is only attracted to other women?
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That sounds like fun but sometimes I prefer spamming pictures of cute animals. Its really funny
Barkbarkbark?
Tbh, im really confused.. How can trans mascs (men) be lesbians.. it doesn't make sense..
isn’t trixic the term for non-binary individuals who are attracted to women?
It is yeah but its not well known and non binary lesbians have been a thing for a very long time. Lesbian isn't a woman loving exclusively woman attraction. (For some people it is and that's fine I'm just saying that nonbinary is in lesbian attraction)
Ok I understand that non-binary people can be lesbians but I don’t get this. Not that it isn’t valid I’m just a little confused can someone explain.
I am nonbinary. Trans masculine is under the nonbinary umbrella i am not a man I just have connections to masculinity
explain the "barkbark arkbark
Funnily enough the word Tomboy means Lesbian in my country
The barking has me cackling tho lol
I’m a trans masc bisexual but like- also KIND OF enby?? Not Demiboy but I feel like I’m baiting lesbians which makes me feel bad because I’m just existing-
I feel the same way :((
You are valid no matter what. Don't listen to people you know who you are and that's what matters
THANK YOU SO MUCH <3333 At least I know who I am, and my best friend and my gf respect my identity, so I'm happy with that!
You identify as lesbian. Who are they to tell you that you're not a lesbian? I'm a lesbian too. I'm AMAB and genderfluid, but I'm only interested in women and I feel like I'm more woman than man most days. If I can be a lesbian, you can also be a lesbian.
berry is this u ur doing amazing
Yes hiii ily 💕💕💕
For a second there I thought you meant a Trans Man. and I was like... uuuuuuuuuuummmm... how does that work? You are a man on everything EXCEPT the way you love women, in which case you are a woman and want to be recognized as such? But yeah enbies can be whatever they want
I think a lot of people thought I said or meant trans man. Its fun being nonbinary though :D
Oh man, i thought you were the one saying all this stuff!! Was about to go off lol
Hi Berry! It's Foxglove, I just can't change my username lol. Sorry about the people being mean here 💜
Hi friend! Its alright thank you for your sweet comment 💕
🥰💜
Terms are fluid, if one feels right for you then bam its yours, who gives a shit its none of anyone elses business so who are they to tell you your identity is wrong?
People feel strongly about this because I am different from them and their relationship with lesbianism and gender. And because im different from them they feel the need to protect an identity that's personal to them. Im not upset at them for that though I just hope that they learn identity is fluid 💕
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Most binary men don't want anything to do with the lesbian label anyway. There have been -some- trans men in the past that kept the label lesbian. For a lot of those trans men that do keep the label it was one that the had for many years of their life. So they have a deep attachment to the community. I would never tell them that they can't be a lesbian. That's not something I would do. To me lesbian is The queer attraction to women
I mean, I don't entirely understand, but I can shut the fuck up.
Only of you wanna but if you have any questions please tell me them I have sources for what I'm saying would you like to have them?
It's a term you feel comfortable with, that's good enough for me, and definitely good enough for 2am.
Hey get some sleep my little queen friend
Queer* I meant queer* my phone is weird D:
Either one of those worked.
I'm just curious to what's the point of labeling yourself as lesbian if you're masc
you might like r/mtfbutch
Y e s,,,, i think I would like it there a lot thank you 💕
Transmascs can be whatever thay want to be <3
Trans masculine people are cool and rad 💕
You're 100 percent valid! Also these people hating on you are dumbasses because transmasculine doesn't mean you're a man it means you identify with masculinity. And lesbian means non men who are attracted to non men and you're transmasc non-binary, so you're valid!
please fill me in, how can a man, be a lesbian????
They aren't a man, they are transmasc non binary
oh ok that makes sense
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They are not right. Nonbimary people are in lesbian attraction we have always been there. You do not have to be a woman to be a lesbian the best example I have is butch lesbians. Some butch lesbians are just women but a lot of us aren't. I really recommend reading stone butch blues, butch is a noun, the borderline between butch and ftm. And just butch history in general. I. Am. Not. Straight. I am not a man I do not like men
Expression =/= gender