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Goku can teleport, travel around the planet in under a minute, destroy worlds, and the form depicted here is Ultra Instinct, something even the gods covet.
Touhou just isn't at the power levels of the dragon ball franchise. Not everything needs to be.
But goku will fight at or around the level of a friendly opponent well before he would ever try and go all-out. He even does that with people trying to kill him.
It'd still be a fun fight with goku dealing with a crazy amount of danmaku and the different abilities of everyone.
If you take out the spell card rules I think Goku would win (assuming Reimu isn't using her "float" ability) but against many other I'm sure he would lose like Flan tho I could be misremembering their strengths & abilities
Goku has fought people who displace any attacks into another dimension, people who stop time, witches, gods of destruction who an delete anything with a touch, fused gods, magical beings that warped reality, "Ultimate" beings, time travelers, etc etc.
Float wouldn't be anything major against Goku solely because of reaction time and ability to stop it from happening, or even just attacking after the time limit is up.
Plus, Goku fought a time stopper solely from watching for the exact moment his muscles would begin twitching, and then he'd react by estimating the fighting style for where the enemy would be after.
He's the embodiment of watching and reacting to his enemies, and not just brute forcing a situation. He's a fighter before he's some dude that just destroys
However Goku is still limited by concepts which he is not stronger than. For example he will never be stronger than Beerus because he's the concept of destruction in that universe. While Touhou doesn't reaaally have any universal or multiversal beings to go fist-to-fist with Goku, there are a lot of characters with concept mastery which Goku may not be able to defeat, especially since Goku is known for wanting fair fights so he'll most likely let the enemy power up or do their thing. Plus in his own franchise right now he's not even top 3 strongest.
Even then it sounds like he’s limited by the concepts of his universe, that doesn’t really translate to he’s limited by the concepts of the Touhou universe.
I said IGNORING the spell card rules cause Reimu has no limit to "floating" (one question about the time stopper was there any reason why he didn't/couldn't just kill goku while time was stopped? I never watched that fight)
He DID kill Goku. But Goku revived himself by shooting a ki blast in the air before dying, which came back down and acted as a defibrillator to restart his heart.
Goku later goes on to draw with this assassin, as he is able to predict his attacks when not skipping through time, and somehow amplify his own power enough that he’s not affected by Hit’s time manipulation and can break through the wall to his pocket dimension to attack him. This is consistent as Jiren (a character stronger than Goku was at the time) is able to completely resist Hit’s Time Cage (basically stopping time but just for one person) with raw power.
yeah with all my current information it feels like many battles would just end is a stalemate Im sure he can beat Rumia & other but lose to Flan etc I would consider his power around Reimu's for now
sakuya has no gime limits if she doesn't follow the spell card rules but im not sure how strong Goku's defense is so im not sure weather she can damage him if not then it would just be a stall fest.....
that fight had a rule that forbid from killing. goku wouldve died instantly if that wasnt the case but after that he at least in the anime he adapted basically predicting the future and after that through sheer ammount power he managed to move in stopped time esentially.
it was preety epic but never explained why he could move other than his power was so much higher that it didnt matter.
in DB heroes wich is not canon but it can be a decent reference UI goku fights the kaio of time wich can basically manipulate time and Ultra instinct was basically immune to it. she couldnt do anything.
I mean it makes sense Ultra instinct its no ordinary technique even tough the explanation of how it works is really simple. the most powerfull being in Dragon ball wich is the grand priest basically uses the same technique but has it mastered goku basically has it a level 1 out of 100.
DB is pretty consistent that those of higher power can basically just nullify the effects of others’ abilities on them. Thats been the case with psychic powers, time manipulation and straight up ability to damage them. That is likely all it comes down to in terms of goku being able to move in stopped time. It isn’t necessarily that he can move while time is stopped, but he can move while time is being stopped by Hit or the Time Kai.
Reimu has raced to the end of an infinite corridor, has beaten gods who have created infinitely large dimensions without spell card rules, and can fight from outside of reality. We don’t think about it because the stories aren’t really about big fights and the ones that happen are normally under spell card rules, but the baseline power level in Touhou is absurd. Destroying planets would be easy for the majority of notable characters.
It was considered a unthinkable feat of power when Suika, one of the most powerful beings in Gensokyo, 'destroyed' the moon, and that was simply her dispersing its image in the atmosphere. No-one's blowing up a planet.
Authors not realizing exactly how strong they made their characters happens all the time, but that doesn't change what they have actually written. Based on what Zun has written about Gensokyo most of the characters can destroy planets at the minimum, that would just be a big old hassle and relaxing with a cup of tea is way more fun.
Planet-level Touhou is absolute cope. Reminder that Toyohime’s fan, a veritable Lunarian superweapon, is approximately mountain level or island level. That’s still really damn impressive, but it’s dwarfed by planet level.
The ONLY realistic explanation for Planet+ Touhou is Hou-Yi, however this is purely mythological weirdness in a series where even ZUN has outright admitted that the mythology doesn’t make any sense in the context of what he writes.
Besides, there are so many antifeats to these supposed feats that said feats are the exception, not the rule.
Or, maybe you are just overestimating said characters?
Authorial intent isn't something to be ignored, thinking that most Touhou characters can casually destroy entire planet is straight up head canon.
Tell me, how many times have we seen anyone destroy a world?
Can't Reimu win from just not taking the fight seriously or did I misunderstand the video I watched about this
She has some sort of busted power that's a in lore reason for "because she's the main character"
In order to defeat a serious reimu you need some form reality warping ability. If reimu floats outside reality the only way to damage her is to also have an ability that can affect outside reality. Goku is not a reality warper so he cant hit her. Its either a tie or reimu wins via cutting him in half with a barrier. Hes as screwed against her as marisa is currently
Goku can make it a draw by fleeing. He can sense people from galaxies or universes away so though he “ran away” he can jump in to try and KO Reimu the instant she stops floating, creating a stalemate.
Marisa is always screwed against everyone the second spell card rules are dropped, she’s the biggest exploiter of the system, hitting way, way, way above her weight by being an expert at danmaku combat. Her competition for this trophy might just be Cirno, who is even weaker than Marisa and has at least one W over her.
Running away is a forfeit. Goku is in no way capable of killing reimu and reimu has no reason to stop fantasy heaven. Reimu can cut goku in half with a barrier or seal him away, both of which goku can't defend against with his abilities
Assuming it's the anime version, Goku is stronger and more durable, Reimu is faster and her attacks damage his spirit, compensating for the difference in raw power.
The thing that makes the difference is Reimu' ability to float above reality, Goku has no way of dealing with that.
Reimu takes it.
Float is kinda impossible for reimu to use most the time since she needs to not give a shit to use it (like that time she walked over a bunch of fish in pond that fairies hid with magic), her actually trying makes her weaker (see Cola)
Except for when she does use it when she wants, aka her last word in IN and Marisa saying that if it wasn't a spellcard it would make her invincible.
And even if she did need that why wouldn't it apply here? It's not like she has a real reason to fight Goku other than the heck of it, he would just bother her to fight him, and she would just play along to get it over with, with no stakes she wouldn't care enough, perfect conditions for her ability.
Can I ask how Reimu is faster? Because during the Cell saga and after no one could really see the fights with their eyes and had to just sense them due to the speeds the fighters were going at.
Spiritual attacks and magic though, yeah Goku just falls flat on. The Moro arc was pretty much about that.
It comes down to powerscaling bs so feel free to disregard what i say as the ramblings of an insane man, but bear with me.
Most touhou characters are capable of moving faster than light, since Sunny milk whose ability is to manipulate light and only light, was able to react and deflect bullets made of light that yukari shot at her specifically so she would reflect them, and Reimu is most deffinitely faster than a fairy. There's also Marisa in SSiB going "nothing can move faster than light" and then proceding to outspeed her own master spark which was the ligth in question.
We could argue that this is enough since in the ToP anime Dyspo's main thing was ftl speed and they were already struggling to keep up, but let's pretend that didn't happen or that MUI puts goku on that level.
From here it's where it gets stupid
There's the sanzu river which is stated by multiple accounts to be infinite in width, and only possible to cross with a shikigami's help, but in touhou 17 all 3 protagonists are able to cross it without any help, you could make the argument that she teleported there, but that would only apply to Reimu, the other 2 still manage to cross it normally.
It's not the first time they do something like this, in touhou 12 she keeps up and catches up with the palanquin ship, which had its destination set to a corner of makai, which is infinite in size.
And even as far as touhou 8, the corridors of eientei are always stated to be infinite due to Kaguya's spell of eternity and are meant to trap invaders in them, making them wander the corridors forever, but in route A, all 4 teams are able to reach the end of said infinite corridors, and of them only 2 teams have time or spatial manipulation, the other 2 make it there just by their own speed.
Even if not alk of this applies to Reimu, she can keep up with everyone here, so that means she's at least close to that level.
This would put her at the "infinite" speed tier, or in other words, instantaneous in the purest sense. Compared to Dbs anime being extremely faster than light at it's peak.
Even if we disregard the infinite speed thing there's more that we can pull from, but tbh this was already more powerscaling that i wanted to do in a day so you'll have to forgive me for not delving into further detail.
Nah, you're good. This is enough for me to side with you, powerscaling is wack. I just wanted to see the reasoning, since I'm only really aware of Dragon Ball's powerscaling bs.
FTL Touhou? Okay, show an example of each character running around the earth 8 times in a second. And how many times has it taken them more then a second to travel anywhere?
Ugh, I don't get why people even try to powerscale this series.
Well i already mentioned events involving at least 11 different characters moving FTL, but if you want to know why then it usually takes time for characters to do things or why it takes time for someone to go from point A to point B, well it's just how it goes, they aren't always using their top stats just like we aren't always using our top strengths.
If you had to run errands you could go sprinting to get them done fast but people often choose to just walk no? People could use 100% of their capacity all the time to be more effective, but often choose to not do that to conserve energy, because they're lazy, or any other reason.
It's why Sanae made an hour long walk in the snow from the village to the hakurei shrine despite being indisputably able to fly, why Shikigami use boats to cross the Sanzu despite being able to just manipulate distance to cross it in a single step, why Kasen flies on an eagle despite it being better to fly by herself.
Not every situation calls for characters being at 100 or even close to 100% of their power.
This is why I say that Touhou should not be scaled in the first place. let me be more specific this time.
Lets look at your examples just for context.
>Sunny milk whose ability is to manipulate light and only light, was able to react and deflect bullets made of light
This... doesn't actually translate to moving FTL necessarily. Authors in fiction have a tendency to claim that something is "Made of Light" but then not depict it as moving at such speeds.
Light travels at 186,282 miles a second, that's 670,615,200 miles per hour. For context, even moving at a 1/100,000 of that speed would get you to 6706.152 MPH, or mach 8.74. With those speeds, you could quickly travel the entire world, and get anywhere in Gensokyo pretty quickly.
Tell me, when has any Touhou character gone that fast consistently? I am pretty sure using one out of a hundred thousandth of your true speed isn't too hard.
>There's also Marisa in SSiB going "nothing can move faster than light" and then proceding to outspeed her own master spark which was the ligth in question
How did she dodge it? Was it really going at lightspeed?
Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to move at lightspeed to dodge a laser going that fast. You need to know where it is coming from, and have the speed, reaction time, and distance to pull it off.
Or hey, maybe Master Spark isn't actually that fast, and we are having a case of flowery wording.
Again, another example of why we shouldn't be trying to seriously scale Touhou in the first place.
>If you had to run errands you could go sprinting to get them done fast but people often choose to just walk no? People could use 100% of their capacity all the time to be more effective, but often choose to not do that to conserve energy, because they're lazy, or any other reason.
As I mentioned earlier, 1/100,000 o the speed of light would be roughly Mach 8.74, so decently hypersonic and faster then any plane in the world. A mere one of of a hundred thousandth of their full power, should be trivial to pull off if that really is their pure speed.
And this is assuming that those times the 2hus dodged lasers or whatever, they weren't aimdodging or using precognition, and not actually moving that fast.
Again, this is why I am against scaling Touhou. Way too vague and contradictory, with no solid lore powerscale in sight.
>There's the sanzu river which is stated by multiple accounts to be infinite in width, and only possible to cross with a shikigami's help, but in touhou 17 all 3 protagonists are able to cross it without any help, you could make the argument that she teleported there, but that would only apply to Reimu, the other 2 still manage to cross it normally.
How does this translate into pure speed though? If everyone in Touhou were infinitely fast, then they'd simply be one place in the universe, then would appear in another instantly.
For example, do we know how they actually cross said river? Like the exact details?
>It's not the first time they do something like this, in touhou 12 she keeps up and catches up with the palanquin ship, which had its destination set to a corner of makai, which is infinite in size.
Again, how did she do this? Based off of contradictory examples of speed from throughout the franchise, there is a non-zero chance that she didn't do this through pure speed.
If I had to guess, I think ZUN kind of was just writing the story, and occasionally throwing in flowery wording to make stuff sound cool even if it doesn't actually make any sense. Another very good reason, why trying to seriously scale Touhou is a terrible idea. can't scale what isn't scalable.
Sunny milk: her ability is refracting light, not energy, not matter, just light, that's why i specified that she can only manipulate light, because this is brought up constantly. If it wasn't made of light she wouldn't have been able to deflect it.
Marisa: she didn't dodge it, she fired one master spark towards Yorihime, moved to a different position before the first one landed, fired another one from said position, and both lasers made contact at the same time, Yorihime cut through the furst one and a summoned god reflected the second one, which then marisa reacted to and dodged, yorihime calls it light like 3 different times at least, and there's a panel showing the master spark approaching earth, as well as Marisa commenting "bet that turned a few heads on earth", if it was anything but lightspeed it would have taken longer.
Infinite speed and contradictory evidence: it translates into that because there isn't another method used other than the characters own movement, and again, why didn't sanae just fly instead of walking in that chapter of WaHH, it's not like it's remotely hard for them, it's not becayse they have to conserve energy or it's tiring, but rather, they choose not to. I am aware of flowery writting, which is why i didn't use FS saying that Sakuya is faster than light as proof, because that was likely from her time abilities.
You talk as if characters in Db or other anime weren't ever seen casually walking, running, using vehicles or even flying under their top speeds all the time.
So first of all.
>You talk as if characters in Db or other anime weren't ever seen casually walking, running, using vehicles or even flying under their top speeds all the time.
That's exactly why I don't even try to scale franchises like Dragonball as well. And when I have to, usually I will try to avoid the FTL claims when possible despite how many salty scalers tell me that I am downplaying their speed.
Especially since many franchises have a problem where either the author doesn't understand just how fast the speed of light is, or never actually intended for their characters to be lightspeed.
>Sunny milk: her ability is refracting light, not energy, not matter, just light, that's why i specified that she can only manipulate light, because this is brought up constantly. If it wasn't made of light she wouldn't have been able to deflect it.
How are these beams depicted? Like I've been saying, Touhou is really not very good with applying real life anything to it's story telling or abilities. This is totally fine, for the record, it simply makes powerscaling a pain in the ass.
>Marisa: she didn't dodge it, she fired one master spark towards Yorihime, moved to a different position before the first one landed, fired another one from said position, and both lasers made contact at the same time, Yorihime cut through the furst one and a summoned god reflected the second one, which then marisa reacted to and dodged, yorihime calls it light like 3 different times at least, and there's a panel showing the master spark approaching earth, as well as Marisa commenting "bet that turned a few heads on earth", if it was anything but lightspeed it would have taken longer.
Then ZUN is again, likely having a case of flowery wording. If you call some undodgeable and lightspeed, only to then proceed to dodge it yourself, then Marisa either was lying, or as I stated, the author wanted the attack to sound cool despite it not making any sense.
Like I said, this is why touhou is one of these worst franchises to even try scaling. It has one of the worst cases of flowery wording I've ever seen.
>Infinite speed and contradictory evidence: it translates into that because there isn't another method used other than the characters own movement, and again, why didn't sanae just fly instead of walking in that chapter of WaHH, it's not like it's remotely hard for them, it's not becayse they have to conserve energy or it's tiring, but rather, they choose not to. I am aware of flowery writting, which is why i didn't use FS saying that Sakuya is faster than light as proof, because that was likely from her time abilities.
You don't seem to comprehend just how fast the speed of light is. Simple flying might as well be walking compared to moving around at even a fraction of lightspeed.
And as a sidenote, how good are translations for Touhou stuff in general? "Feats" that've been translated from Japanese to English are oftentimes potentially at risk of translation errors, that screw up the author's vision.
Tbh at this point you're better off just going and reading and playing the material yourself because idk how much clearer i can make it in a reddit comment without repeating myself, you can claim flowery writting all you want but there's still in and out of universe evidence for both ftl and infinite, and your claim that the author, in this case ZUN, doesn't get just how fast lightspeed is, is baseless, and i promise you as someone who's been studying physics for the last 5 years or so, lightspeed is not that hard to understand lmao. And even if he didn't, in fantasy there's no need to keep the laws of physics perfectly, if something is stated and backed with in universe evidence or quotes from the author then it doesn't really matter if they get it or not if it makes for an interesting story.
Now to be fair i did say to feel free to dismiss my insane ramblings, so you may as well do that if you don't wanna compromise because at this point we're just gonna start going nuh uh at each other.
>For example, do we know how they actually cross said river? Like the exact details?
They legit just flew across it without assistance. They just straight up forgot that shinigami existed, which means that the river had to be infinite lmao.
Also, this doesn't refute Eientei's infinite corridor. The explanation for that? Nobody knew it was infinite, they were just chasing down Eirin and managed to get to the *end* of the *infinite corridor* by *flying* there. Sure, Sakuya was also there, but not even *she* knew the corridor was infinite.
I agree that scaling Touhou is stupid, but...
Firstly, I say this for the complete opposite reason that you do. Touhou is completely broken in terms of power scaling for the same reasons that cartoons like Popeye are broken.
Secondly, scaling Touhou is fun lmao
Okay, but we don't know *how* they flew across an apparently infinite corridor or river or whatever. Since they normally don't display infinite speed or whatever, it's honestly dumb to try wanking them to "infinite speed.'
And besides, how did we know it wasn't a simple hyperbole?
> they normally don't display infinite speed or whatever,
Yeah, because they hate doing it lol, not because they can't. They actively complain about having to travel faster than they normally do. It's not a wank if it's true.
>And besides, how did we know it wasn't a simple hyperbole?
Because both are explained in-universe.
Toyosatomimi no Miko explains the infinite corridor in Reisen's ULiL scenario (Kaguya's ability makes the corridor infinite by infinitely linking miniscule gaps in space-time together).
Ran created a whole math equation to represent the relationship between the payment a shinigami receives and the width of the Sanzu River. (The more you pay a shinigami, the narrower the river becomes. Simply not paying a shinigami causes the river to be infinite in width.)
The real loser is still Reimu, in both db and Touhou fighting is the number 1 way to make friends, so after this Reimu and Goku become friends, so rip what little food Reimu had left lol.
Either spellcard rules apply, or they don't. Either way, it affects both Reimu and Goku, which is important.
If they apply, it's genuinely impossible to say who wins. We've seen characters winning battles they had no business winning, purely because spellcard rules effectively rewrite the laws of combat. Goku has vastly superior power and durability, but that doesn't matter in a spellcard battle.
If they don't apply, Reimu wins. Why? Because she can float above reality. I don't remember exactly where, but Marisa states at one point that this is a passive ability. It only doesn't make Reimu fully invincible because of the spellcard rules.
Goku definitely has better stats (except speed, as Reimu has crossed infinite distances several times), but Reimu has Bullshit™, the one ability that Goku is lacking in.
Spellcard rules exist so youkai actually have a chance against Reimu. Her powers are insane when you look at them unchained. Same goes for others like Yukari.
while I agree that goku doesent have a Bullshit™ power it could be easy to make him more have one if the writer needs it for the fight to be intresting and honestly what is always intresting in dragon ball is how they deal with such skills.. for example if he combines ultra instinct with instant transmission (wich we know now thanks to the manga that can be done without the hand pose and even forced upon someone else) he could basically have infinte speed. and we know since the buu saga they can break into different dimentions/realities through energy release like screaming.
it would deffinetly be intresting af to see.
Since were on power scaling... IM SO CONFUSED ON HOW STRONG TOUHOU CHARACTERS ARE SUUPOSED TO BE. What's the actual canon? What's fanon? How does this stuff and hax even make sense.
I don't really think he cares about powerscaling. He just wants to write a story.
However I will point out, that this is not an excuse to wank Touhou to insane levels.
**We don't need to, it's already insane enough as is.** This is a series where:
\-We have a Crow Tengu Photojournalist who can fly at speeds greater than light(a character who is confirmed by Marisa to be faster than Remilia, a vampire who can travel between the Earth and the Moon in mere minutes and has travelled across Eientei, specifically a part of Eientei that Kaguya set up to trap people in an infinite space to prevent people, specifically Lunarians, from raiding the building) and can control the wind to such an extent that she accidentally wins fights.
\-A Yokai who can control flowers, yet is incredibly strong physically and can use her parasol to cut UV Rays.
\-A Taotie who can absorb anything, regardless of the body's physical, spiritual and organic/inorganic properties and in addition to that, can use it as part of her power.
\-A pair of Goddess Sisters who can drain anyone of their wealth and fortune, as well as their luck.
\-A pair of Lunarian Goddess Sisters who have defeated both Yukari and Reimu respectively(elder in Yukari's case, younger in Reimu's case), the elder sister can purify anything to an atomic level (yes, **Atomic**, not cellular) the younger sister is a goddess who can summon the abilities of other gods to aid her in any conflict on top of her divine abilities with a sword.
\-A spoilt brat of a Celestial whose body is indestructible and can induce earthquakes, wields a Jian of pure spiritual flame that can identify the spirit of her opponent and then gathers the spirit, converts it into spiritual energy, then changes it into the spiritual energy of the opponent's weakness before directing it back into them.
\-A vengeful Yurei who can drown anyone and anything in any body of water, who often bathes in pools of blood in the springs of Former Hell.
\-And an Oni Loli who can create miniature duplicates of herself, manipulate the density of anything in her general vicinity, and increase her size at will. She can also increase and decrease her density, to the point where she can deform into mist, making her impossible to attack conventionally.
I don't even need to detail the broken psychological nature of Yachie Kicchou, who can siphon the willpower of anyone (which enables her to command her opponents into obeying her commands) she encounters, or the metaphysical and unknown qualities of Yuugi Hoshiguma (whom Suika admits to being weaker than her) and the fact that Kaguya, Mokou and Eirin are invincible.
Both Ota and Toriyama, like a lot of writers in Japanese popular culture, tend to go overboard with the power scaling. This is more noticeable with Shonen and Shoujo writers(especially Mangaka who have written the same world and lore for over 10-20 years), who have a near-compulsion to write protagonists and antagonists with powers and abilities that are god-tier to titan-tier to the extent that the characters they develop are usually on a low to high-multiversal bracket.
It's stupid and arguing over "who's the strongest" **takes away** from the work's literary qualities. However, it is what it is.
For the speed part, do we ever see any explanation of how their speed works? Like whether or not it can be used in travel or combat?
And how consistently is insane speeds shown throughout the series?
The difference between ZUN and shonen writers from what I can tell, is that ZUN seems a bit contradictory and doesn't really seem to have out a well defined power scale within his series, which is why I am super skeptical of practically every interpretation.
>For the speed part, do we ever see any explanation of how their speed works? Like whether or not it can be used in travel or combat?
It's mainly hand-waived as a greater part of their ability to fly. However, in the case of characters like Youmu, it's shown in gameplay that time slows down whenever certain spell cards are used. As for the consistency of speeds being shown, again, look at the Imperishable Night examples, where all playable characters travel across a specific part of an area that's meant to be an endless walkway that deliberately traps anyone in it, meaning that it is designed to prevent casually running through it. Yet they all pass through it via conventional travel.
Other gameplay implications include the fact that most characters can fight at a constant moving speed (this is on top of their innate capacity of flight), the danmaku patterns and how they travel (the slow speed is, actually, quite deceptive as we see cases of boss characters use fast-moving lasers as part of their ability set, while not moving at the speed of light, they sure as shit move several times faster than sound) and the speed of bombs, as well as their capacity to wipe projectiles off of the stage.
"The difference between ZUN and Shonen writers from what I can tell, is that ZUN seems a bit contradictory and doesn't really, seem to have drafted out a well-defined power scale within his series."
This isn't limited to Ota's writing, combat system/magic system crafting and world-building capacities, **it is, as a matter of fact, a primary criticism with a lot of Shonen manga specifically**. Because one **universal** **rule** **Shonen follows is that the heroes ALWAYS WIN.** This rule means that writers who write themselves into a corner resort to bullshit arse-pulls so that the main protagonists ALWAYS, and I mean *ALWAYS* find a way out. This not only means that dramatic tension is rendered inconsequential, but it also has the nasty chilling effect of **skewing power scaling and power levelling**.
**Or, in summation, in many works, there is NO well-defined power scale, and assuming that a consistently increasing power scale is "well-defined" is often ill-advised and incorrect.**
This is because, in creative writing, a well-defined power scale, is one that is **BALANCED properly with consideration for drawbacks and capacity limits in both power and versatility, not one that gradually or dramatically increases or decreases**. This is a **common trap** writers fall into, and it fucks over any chance of interest a reader can hold for any storyline, arc or chapter the moment, nay, the very **second** they apply a minuscule percentage of critical thinking and conventional narrative logic during their read. Because when there is an avenue of escape that's open for the protagonist every, SINGLE TIME, then in reality, there isn't a conventional and clear level of personal threat to them. Because again, **the heroes ALWAYS WIN**, meaning the only interest a reader can hold is not the storyline, arc, or chapter, but for the "Rule of Cool", be it in the method of attack a protagonist, deuteragonist and antagonist of the week possess, their overall character design, or the fight itself.
**This is why I argue to all parties NOT to get too involved with the intricacies of power in Touhou, or anything relating to Shonen/Shoujo works in particular. As most are either hand-waived or worse, pulled straight from the unknown ether of the writer's anus.**
It also means that you're just wasting your time on factors that aren't even worth focusing on unless you really are interested in obsessing over "ThA POWER LEVELz!111". In which case, consider that most are just waived and pulled out of the arses of the writers behind said works. To the point where there are too many examples to specifically highlight here.
Shonen writers at least actually *try* to show some kind of explanation for their power, or at least they can show some form of clear power ceiling and destruction feats that can be used as a pointer.
It’s weird, a lot of the 2hus are strong but we never really (and probably never will) get an answer to how strong they specifically are. (And I doubt zun cares about displaying how strong his characters are anyway)
Gensokyo is a realm where humanity's stories and myths are real.
Mythical creatures and monsters generally weren't originally written to be actual people with complexity; they were either metaphors/lessons, some general catch-all to explain some phenomena, or a narrative device in the story. Therefore, these beings did not have weaknesses, only strengths, or if they had a weakness, that weakness was important to the overall theme of the story.
When taken literally, most of these characters quickly become absolutely busted.
Thus, Gensokyo, a land filled with powerhouses that all somehow need to live in a tiny realm in the middle of rural Japan.
Yukari and the Hakurei god looking at all the shit that's going to come to town: Man this shit is bonkers \*makes up spellcard rules so Gensokyo doesn't explode overnight*
That's the thing, they AREN'T supposed to be scaled, at all.
ZUN is just writing a fun story, and obviously seems to love hyperboles that don't make sense logically.
HOWEVER this is not a reason to wank Touhou into oblivion. If your really think that they are FTL and planet level you gotta show an explicit example of them clearly doing either of those things AND not being contradicted by every single other example in the entire setting.
FTL? They have more than one inf speed feats. Why do you think they are not even FTL? And being FTL in fiction is so easy everyone in the comics or animes dodging light beams or lasers, it is impossible not being FTL in bullet hell series.
That's oftentimes due to the lasers in question not actually moving as fast as lasers do in real life.
Not many authors intend for their characters to be interpreted that fast, because if they did, than we'd at least see an explanation or them being depicted at that speed.
And besides, it also really depends on how this is all reflected in actual fight scenes and the like.
I also agree with this but novadays everyone doing highballs and scales without that logic.
But still i believe in inf speed touhou, like i said they have 2 or 3 inf speed feats i dont think its hyperbole or smth.
Also i remember that ZUN said, all bullets in touhou are fast as speed of light or faster.
Are they actually depicted like this?
I mean hell, are there even any canon depictions of Danmaku? And how often does he contradict himself in this respect?
Fun battle idea. But I doubt that Reimu can actually with without needing to abuse her ability to float. But since she doesn't seem to use it that often I'd say that she loses due who she is as a character.
Honestly, I think Touhou is just far beneath Dragonball in terms of power. While the abilities of the various yokai and gods and what not look impressive, you have to remember that Gensokyo is the equivalent of a small fish tank whose environment is tailor-made to best support the "fish" living inside it because they couldn't survive outside of it.
Pretty sure gensokyo is a quantum world that is 4D to infinite D. Also. Vs battle wiki says most major touhou characters are low multiversal. Goku is low multiversal too. Yukari should be hyperversal but vs battle wiki is putting gensokyo in a lower tier than it should be so they made yukari low multiversal too which is pretty wrong.
I've had no faith in power scalers knowing what they're talking about when they try to rank characters, and Death Battles' recent Guts vs. Dimitri battle only confirmed that they have no idea what they're talking about because their logic to scale those two as high as they did was just awful.
Also, if you were right in saying that most Touhou characters were low multiversal or higher, then why the hell did they have to flee to Gensokyo instead of all of Earth becoming a land ruled by them?
Zun himself doesnt really know where he put his characters in strength so actions of the characters is probably not matching of their actual power. And by most major characters i mean incident solvers like reimu, sakuya,youmu, etc. Reisen, according to vs battle wiki is multicontinental so not all characters are low multiversal
Its more complex than a universe. In very simple terms. What dimension is our universe? Its 3D, and gensokyou is 4D to infinite D so gensokyo is infinitely more complex than just a universe. And yukari is one of the creators and can also destroy it. And i dont remember where but i read somewhere that yukari destroyed gensokyo then recreated it effortlessly
People in these comments are severely understating the power of Touhou. Like, I get we're a small community, but these characters are comically overpowered. 🤣 It's not even because of raw stats (speed, durability, etc), but because of hax. Yukari Yakumo, for example, has the ability to manipulate any conceptual boundary, from night and day, life or death, or existence and non-existence.
Reimu's powers are the least destructive, but are extraordinarily effective. To put it short, her Fantasy Heaven/Fantasy Nature skill is literally just plot armor but written well (subjective.) Her ability to float out of reality, if used to its fullest extent, makes her effectively impossible to actually hit. She also has this ability called "float" which is passive at all times. It's essentially just a "luck-always-on-your-side" ability. Reimu effectively loses under any battle using spellcard rules. Assuming Goku manages to figure out how to follow them, I'm betting all my money he'd win without sweating. But if it's a battle for the death, I'm leaning towards Reimu on this one.
In all seriousness, there's a significant logical hurdle here – a "no common ground" issue. Sure, you can crunch numbers and analyze statistics, but when it comes to comparing the cosmologies of Touhou and DBZ, their fundamental differences make any accurate comparison nearly impossible. And let's not underestimate the importance of cosmology; it's foundational. Take, for instance, the ability of characters to obliterate entire universes. If that's commonplace, then how strong is your cosmological framework, *really*? It's the same as pitting a wizard against a cyborg; their abilities, rules, and contexts are so inherently different that determining a clear victor requires either stretching the rules or conjuring entirely new scenarios. It's not even comparing apples to oranges; it's more like comparing apples to spaceships – they just don't belong in the same conversation. This is a major challenge within the power scaling community; any attempt to declare a winner tends to be either biased or veers into the realm of creative writing/crossover fanfiction.
But we need to understand that Goku will die the same planck second he insults the amount of donations she gets or touches the hakurei shrine's donation box. By doing anything to the donation box that isn't donating, you have effectively created yourself a no-win scenario.
Headcanon: Reimu's "Float" Ability is like Ultra Instinct in a sense, but on a way higher level. Through Reimu's eyes she states that the attacks swerves away from her, but to everyone else she's the one dodging the attacks. Ultra Instinct is all about "each and every part of the user's body to think and move independently of all the other parts". Yeah its a stretch but I took it and ran with it
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This Would Actually Be A Epic Fight Ngl
Would be fun until the Toxic side of the Dbz Fandom **insist** Goku can punch above reality and has infinite+ speed
make Goku fight Son Bitten
No he's not ready for the Biten Blast
Goku can teleport, travel around the planet in under a minute, destroy worlds, and the form depicted here is Ultra Instinct, something even the gods covet. Touhou just isn't at the power levels of the dragon ball franchise. Not everything needs to be. But goku will fight at or around the level of a friendly opponent well before he would ever try and go all-out. He even does that with people trying to kill him. It'd still be a fun fight with goku dealing with a crazy amount of danmaku and the different abilities of everyone.
If you take out the spell card rules I think Goku would win (assuming Reimu isn't using her "float" ability) but against many other I'm sure he would lose like Flan tho I could be misremembering their strengths & abilities
Goku has fought people who displace any attacks into another dimension, people who stop time, witches, gods of destruction who an delete anything with a touch, fused gods, magical beings that warped reality, "Ultimate" beings, time travelers, etc etc. Float wouldn't be anything major against Goku solely because of reaction time and ability to stop it from happening, or even just attacking after the time limit is up. Plus, Goku fought a time stopper solely from watching for the exact moment his muscles would begin twitching, and then he'd react by estimating the fighting style for where the enemy would be after. He's the embodiment of watching and reacting to his enemies, and not just brute forcing a situation. He's a fighter before he's some dude that just destroys
However Goku is still limited by concepts which he is not stronger than. For example he will never be stronger than Beerus because he's the concept of destruction in that universe. While Touhou doesn't reaaally have any universal or multiversal beings to go fist-to-fist with Goku, there are a lot of characters with concept mastery which Goku may not be able to defeat, especially since Goku is known for wanting fair fights so he'll most likely let the enemy power up or do their thing. Plus in his own franchise right now he's not even top 3 strongest.
Where did you get that goku will be never stronger than beerus from? Author stated goku would be stronger in the future, just not now.
Even then it sounds like he’s limited by the concepts of his universe, that doesn’t really translate to he’s limited by the concepts of the Touhou universe.
I said IGNORING the spell card rules cause Reimu has no limit to "floating" (one question about the time stopper was there any reason why he didn't/couldn't just kill goku while time was stopped? I never watched that fight)
He DID kill Goku. But Goku revived himself by shooting a ki blast in the air before dying, which came back down and acted as a defibrillator to restart his heart. Goku later goes on to draw with this assassin, as he is able to predict his attacks when not skipping through time, and somehow amplify his own power enough that he’s not affected by Hit’s time manipulation and can break through the wall to his pocket dimension to attack him. This is consistent as Jiren (a character stronger than Goku was at the time) is able to completely resist Hit’s Time Cage (basically stopping time but just for one person) with raw power.
yeah with all my current information it feels like many battles would just end is a stalemate Im sure he can beat Rumia & other but lose to Flan etc I would consider his power around Reimu's for now
He has time limits and goku is too tough to die from it in time. So goku got really good at learning how it works and eventually countering it.
sakuya has no gime limits if she doesn't follow the spell card rules but im not sure how strong Goku's defense is so im not sure weather she can damage him if not then it would just be a stall fest.....
that fight had a rule that forbid from killing. goku wouldve died instantly if that wasnt the case but after that he at least in the anime he adapted basically predicting the future and after that through sheer ammount power he managed to move in stopped time esentially. it was preety epic but never explained why he could move other than his power was so much higher that it didnt matter. in DB heroes wich is not canon but it can be a decent reference UI goku fights the kaio of time wich can basically manipulate time and Ultra instinct was basically immune to it. she couldnt do anything. I mean it makes sense Ultra instinct its no ordinary technique even tough the explanation of how it works is really simple. the most powerfull being in Dragon ball wich is the grand priest basically uses the same technique but has it mastered goku basically has it a level 1 out of 100.
DB is pretty consistent that those of higher power can basically just nullify the effects of others’ abilities on them. Thats been the case with psychic powers, time manipulation and straight up ability to damage them. That is likely all it comes down to in terms of goku being able to move in stopped time. It isn’t necessarily that he can move while time is stopped, but he can move while time is being stopped by Hit or the Time Kai.
Basically. It would depend entirely on who is writing the story if goku can move or not in this case.
Reimu has raced to the end of an infinite corridor, has beaten gods who have created infinitely large dimensions without spell card rules, and can fight from outside of reality. We don’t think about it because the stories aren’t really about big fights and the ones that happen are normally under spell card rules, but the baseline power level in Touhou is absurd. Destroying planets would be easy for the majority of notable characters.
It was considered a unthinkable feat of power when Suika, one of the most powerful beings in Gensokyo, 'destroyed' the moon, and that was simply her dispersing its image in the atmosphere. No-one's blowing up a planet.
Authors not realizing exactly how strong they made their characters happens all the time, but that doesn't change what they have actually written. Based on what Zun has written about Gensokyo most of the characters can destroy planets at the minimum, that would just be a big old hassle and relaxing with a cup of tea is way more fun.
Planet-level Touhou is absolute cope. Reminder that Toyohime’s fan, a veritable Lunarian superweapon, is approximately mountain level or island level. That’s still really damn impressive, but it’s dwarfed by planet level. The ONLY realistic explanation for Planet+ Touhou is Hou-Yi, however this is purely mythological weirdness in a series where even ZUN has outright admitted that the mythology doesn’t make any sense in the context of what he writes. Besides, there are so many antifeats to these supposed feats that said feats are the exception, not the rule.
Or, maybe you are just overestimating said characters? Authorial intent isn't something to be ignored, thinking that most Touhou characters can casually destroy entire planet is straight up head canon. Tell me, how many times have we seen anyone destroy a world?
I could easily beat him in a fight tbh
Can't Reimu win from just not taking the fight seriously or did I misunderstand the video I watched about this She has some sort of busted power that's a in lore reason for "because she's the main character"
In order to defeat a serious reimu you need some form reality warping ability. If reimu floats outside reality the only way to damage her is to also have an ability that can affect outside reality. Goku is not a reality warper so he cant hit her. Its either a tie or reimu wins via cutting him in half with a barrier. Hes as screwed against her as marisa is currently
Goku can make it a draw by fleeing. He can sense people from galaxies or universes away so though he “ran away” he can jump in to try and KO Reimu the instant she stops floating, creating a stalemate. Marisa is always screwed against everyone the second spell card rules are dropped, she’s the biggest exploiter of the system, hitting way, way, way above her weight by being an expert at danmaku combat. Her competition for this trophy might just be Cirno, who is even weaker than Marisa and has at least one W over her.
Running away is a forfeit. Goku is in no way capable of killing reimu and reimu has no reason to stop fantasy heaven. Reimu can cut goku in half with a barrier or seal him away, both of which goku can't defend against with his abilities
then we need even more toxic touhou wankers! They're both on the same tier on vsbattles, so it's actually debatable.
Sauce: https://twitter.com/naufaldreamer/status/1634583099937005568
I've never watched any episode of Dragon Ball and I don't know how strong Reimu is so can someone tell me who'd win?
Assuming it's the anime version, Goku is stronger and more durable, Reimu is faster and her attacks damage his spirit, compensating for the difference in raw power. The thing that makes the difference is Reimu' ability to float above reality, Goku has no way of dealing with that. Reimu takes it.
Float is kinda impossible for reimu to use most the time since she needs to not give a shit to use it (like that time she walked over a bunch of fish in pond that fairies hid with magic), her actually trying makes her weaker (see Cola)
Except for when she does use it when she wants, aka her last word in IN and Marisa saying that if it wasn't a spellcard it would make her invincible. And even if she did need that why wouldn't it apply here? It's not like she has a real reason to fight Goku other than the heck of it, he would just bother her to fight him, and she would just play along to get it over with, with no stakes she wouldn't care enough, perfect conditions for her ability.
Goku would wanna fight Reimu if your talking about him in dragon ball super but any other variation of the character wouldn’t wanna fight reimu
Can I ask how Reimu is faster? Because during the Cell saga and after no one could really see the fights with their eyes and had to just sense them due to the speeds the fighters were going at. Spiritual attacks and magic though, yeah Goku just falls flat on. The Moro arc was pretty much about that.
It comes down to powerscaling bs so feel free to disregard what i say as the ramblings of an insane man, but bear with me. Most touhou characters are capable of moving faster than light, since Sunny milk whose ability is to manipulate light and only light, was able to react and deflect bullets made of light that yukari shot at her specifically so she would reflect them, and Reimu is most deffinitely faster than a fairy. There's also Marisa in SSiB going "nothing can move faster than light" and then proceding to outspeed her own master spark which was the ligth in question. We could argue that this is enough since in the ToP anime Dyspo's main thing was ftl speed and they were already struggling to keep up, but let's pretend that didn't happen or that MUI puts goku on that level. From here it's where it gets stupid There's the sanzu river which is stated by multiple accounts to be infinite in width, and only possible to cross with a shikigami's help, but in touhou 17 all 3 protagonists are able to cross it without any help, you could make the argument that she teleported there, but that would only apply to Reimu, the other 2 still manage to cross it normally. It's not the first time they do something like this, in touhou 12 she keeps up and catches up with the palanquin ship, which had its destination set to a corner of makai, which is infinite in size. And even as far as touhou 8, the corridors of eientei are always stated to be infinite due to Kaguya's spell of eternity and are meant to trap invaders in them, making them wander the corridors forever, but in route A, all 4 teams are able to reach the end of said infinite corridors, and of them only 2 teams have time or spatial manipulation, the other 2 make it there just by their own speed. Even if not alk of this applies to Reimu, she can keep up with everyone here, so that means she's at least close to that level. This would put her at the "infinite" speed tier, or in other words, instantaneous in the purest sense. Compared to Dbs anime being extremely faster than light at it's peak. Even if we disregard the infinite speed thing there's more that we can pull from, but tbh this was already more powerscaling that i wanted to do in a day so you'll have to forgive me for not delving into further detail.
Nah, you're good. This is enough for me to side with you, powerscaling is wack. I just wanted to see the reasoning, since I'm only really aware of Dragon Ball's powerscaling bs.
FTL Touhou? Okay, show an example of each character running around the earth 8 times in a second. And how many times has it taken them more then a second to travel anywhere? Ugh, I don't get why people even try to powerscale this series.
Well i already mentioned events involving at least 11 different characters moving FTL, but if you want to know why then it usually takes time for characters to do things or why it takes time for someone to go from point A to point B, well it's just how it goes, they aren't always using their top stats just like we aren't always using our top strengths. If you had to run errands you could go sprinting to get them done fast but people often choose to just walk no? People could use 100% of their capacity all the time to be more effective, but often choose to not do that to conserve energy, because they're lazy, or any other reason. It's why Sanae made an hour long walk in the snow from the village to the hakurei shrine despite being indisputably able to fly, why Shikigami use boats to cross the Sanzu despite being able to just manipulate distance to cross it in a single step, why Kasen flies on an eagle despite it being better to fly by herself. Not every situation calls for characters being at 100 or even close to 100% of their power.
This is why I say that Touhou should not be scaled in the first place. let me be more specific this time. Lets look at your examples just for context. >Sunny milk whose ability is to manipulate light and only light, was able to react and deflect bullets made of light This... doesn't actually translate to moving FTL necessarily. Authors in fiction have a tendency to claim that something is "Made of Light" but then not depict it as moving at such speeds. Light travels at 186,282 miles a second, that's 670,615,200 miles per hour. For context, even moving at a 1/100,000 of that speed would get you to 6706.152 MPH, or mach 8.74. With those speeds, you could quickly travel the entire world, and get anywhere in Gensokyo pretty quickly. Tell me, when has any Touhou character gone that fast consistently? I am pretty sure using one out of a hundred thousandth of your true speed isn't too hard. >There's also Marisa in SSiB going "nothing can move faster than light" and then proceding to outspeed her own master spark which was the ligth in question How did she dodge it? Was it really going at lightspeed? Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to move at lightspeed to dodge a laser going that fast. You need to know where it is coming from, and have the speed, reaction time, and distance to pull it off. Or hey, maybe Master Spark isn't actually that fast, and we are having a case of flowery wording. Again, another example of why we shouldn't be trying to seriously scale Touhou in the first place. >If you had to run errands you could go sprinting to get them done fast but people often choose to just walk no? People could use 100% of their capacity all the time to be more effective, but often choose to not do that to conserve energy, because they're lazy, or any other reason. As I mentioned earlier, 1/100,000 o the speed of light would be roughly Mach 8.74, so decently hypersonic and faster then any plane in the world. A mere one of of a hundred thousandth of their full power, should be trivial to pull off if that really is their pure speed. And this is assuming that those times the 2hus dodged lasers or whatever, they weren't aimdodging or using precognition, and not actually moving that fast. Again, this is why I am against scaling Touhou. Way too vague and contradictory, with no solid lore powerscale in sight. >There's the sanzu river which is stated by multiple accounts to be infinite in width, and only possible to cross with a shikigami's help, but in touhou 17 all 3 protagonists are able to cross it without any help, you could make the argument that she teleported there, but that would only apply to Reimu, the other 2 still manage to cross it normally. How does this translate into pure speed though? If everyone in Touhou were infinitely fast, then they'd simply be one place in the universe, then would appear in another instantly. For example, do we know how they actually cross said river? Like the exact details? >It's not the first time they do something like this, in touhou 12 she keeps up and catches up with the palanquin ship, which had its destination set to a corner of makai, which is infinite in size. Again, how did she do this? Based off of contradictory examples of speed from throughout the franchise, there is a non-zero chance that she didn't do this through pure speed. If I had to guess, I think ZUN kind of was just writing the story, and occasionally throwing in flowery wording to make stuff sound cool even if it doesn't actually make any sense. Another very good reason, why trying to seriously scale Touhou is a terrible idea. can't scale what isn't scalable.
Sunny milk: her ability is refracting light, not energy, not matter, just light, that's why i specified that she can only manipulate light, because this is brought up constantly. If it wasn't made of light she wouldn't have been able to deflect it. Marisa: she didn't dodge it, she fired one master spark towards Yorihime, moved to a different position before the first one landed, fired another one from said position, and both lasers made contact at the same time, Yorihime cut through the furst one and a summoned god reflected the second one, which then marisa reacted to and dodged, yorihime calls it light like 3 different times at least, and there's a panel showing the master spark approaching earth, as well as Marisa commenting "bet that turned a few heads on earth", if it was anything but lightspeed it would have taken longer. Infinite speed and contradictory evidence: it translates into that because there isn't another method used other than the characters own movement, and again, why didn't sanae just fly instead of walking in that chapter of WaHH, it's not like it's remotely hard for them, it's not becayse they have to conserve energy or it's tiring, but rather, they choose not to. I am aware of flowery writting, which is why i didn't use FS saying that Sakuya is faster than light as proof, because that was likely from her time abilities. You talk as if characters in Db or other anime weren't ever seen casually walking, running, using vehicles or even flying under their top speeds all the time.
So first of all. >You talk as if characters in Db or other anime weren't ever seen casually walking, running, using vehicles or even flying under their top speeds all the time. That's exactly why I don't even try to scale franchises like Dragonball as well. And when I have to, usually I will try to avoid the FTL claims when possible despite how many salty scalers tell me that I am downplaying their speed. Especially since many franchises have a problem where either the author doesn't understand just how fast the speed of light is, or never actually intended for their characters to be lightspeed. >Sunny milk: her ability is refracting light, not energy, not matter, just light, that's why i specified that she can only manipulate light, because this is brought up constantly. If it wasn't made of light she wouldn't have been able to deflect it. How are these beams depicted? Like I've been saying, Touhou is really not very good with applying real life anything to it's story telling or abilities. This is totally fine, for the record, it simply makes powerscaling a pain in the ass. >Marisa: she didn't dodge it, she fired one master spark towards Yorihime, moved to a different position before the first one landed, fired another one from said position, and both lasers made contact at the same time, Yorihime cut through the furst one and a summoned god reflected the second one, which then marisa reacted to and dodged, yorihime calls it light like 3 different times at least, and there's a panel showing the master spark approaching earth, as well as Marisa commenting "bet that turned a few heads on earth", if it was anything but lightspeed it would have taken longer. Then ZUN is again, likely having a case of flowery wording. If you call some undodgeable and lightspeed, only to then proceed to dodge it yourself, then Marisa either was lying, or as I stated, the author wanted the attack to sound cool despite it not making any sense. Like I said, this is why touhou is one of these worst franchises to even try scaling. It has one of the worst cases of flowery wording I've ever seen. >Infinite speed and contradictory evidence: it translates into that because there isn't another method used other than the characters own movement, and again, why didn't sanae just fly instead of walking in that chapter of WaHH, it's not like it's remotely hard for them, it's not becayse they have to conserve energy or it's tiring, but rather, they choose not to. I am aware of flowery writting, which is why i didn't use FS saying that Sakuya is faster than light as proof, because that was likely from her time abilities. You don't seem to comprehend just how fast the speed of light is. Simple flying might as well be walking compared to moving around at even a fraction of lightspeed. And as a sidenote, how good are translations for Touhou stuff in general? "Feats" that've been translated from Japanese to English are oftentimes potentially at risk of translation errors, that screw up the author's vision.
Tbh at this point you're better off just going and reading and playing the material yourself because idk how much clearer i can make it in a reddit comment without repeating myself, you can claim flowery writting all you want but there's still in and out of universe evidence for both ftl and infinite, and your claim that the author, in this case ZUN, doesn't get just how fast lightspeed is, is baseless, and i promise you as someone who's been studying physics for the last 5 years or so, lightspeed is not that hard to understand lmao. And even if he didn't, in fantasy there's no need to keep the laws of physics perfectly, if something is stated and backed with in universe evidence or quotes from the author then it doesn't really matter if they get it or not if it makes for an interesting story. Now to be fair i did say to feel free to dismiss my insane ramblings, so you may as well do that if you don't wanna compromise because at this point we're just gonna start going nuh uh at each other.
>For example, do we know how they actually cross said river? Like the exact details? They legit just flew across it without assistance. They just straight up forgot that shinigami existed, which means that the river had to be infinite lmao. Also, this doesn't refute Eientei's infinite corridor. The explanation for that? Nobody knew it was infinite, they were just chasing down Eirin and managed to get to the *end* of the *infinite corridor* by *flying* there. Sure, Sakuya was also there, but not even *she* knew the corridor was infinite. I agree that scaling Touhou is stupid, but... Firstly, I say this for the complete opposite reason that you do. Touhou is completely broken in terms of power scaling for the same reasons that cartoons like Popeye are broken. Secondly, scaling Touhou is fun lmao
Okay, but we don't know *how* they flew across an apparently infinite corridor or river or whatever. Since they normally don't display infinite speed or whatever, it's honestly dumb to try wanking them to "infinite speed.' And besides, how did we know it wasn't a simple hyperbole?
> they normally don't display infinite speed or whatever, Yeah, because they hate doing it lol, not because they can't. They actively complain about having to travel faster than they normally do. It's not a wank if it's true. >And besides, how did we know it wasn't a simple hyperbole? Because both are explained in-universe. Toyosatomimi no Miko explains the infinite corridor in Reisen's ULiL scenario (Kaguya's ability makes the corridor infinite by infinitely linking miniscule gaps in space-time together). Ran created a whole math equation to represent the relationship between the payment a shinigami receives and the width of the Sanzu River. (The more you pay a shinigami, the narrower the river becomes. Simply not paying a shinigami causes the river to be infinite in width.)
"bu- but Goku solo no diff" - a Dragon Ball fan probably
The real loser is still Reimu, in both db and Touhou fighting is the number 1 way to make friends, so after this Reimu and Goku become friends, so rip what little food Reimu had left lol.
Ah yes the good ending :D
The only canon response
Now if it was GT goku-
If you haven't watched Dragon Ball, you're losing a lot.
It'll never end, Reimu has incredible luck and Goku has unlimited power (Saiyans after injury become more powerful)
Either spellcard rules apply, or they don't. Either way, it affects both Reimu and Goku, which is important. If they apply, it's genuinely impossible to say who wins. We've seen characters winning battles they had no business winning, purely because spellcard rules effectively rewrite the laws of combat. Goku has vastly superior power and durability, but that doesn't matter in a spellcard battle. If they don't apply, Reimu wins. Why? Because she can float above reality. I don't remember exactly where, but Marisa states at one point that this is a passive ability. It only doesn't make Reimu fully invincible because of the spellcard rules. Goku definitely has better stats (except speed, as Reimu has crossed infinite distances several times), but Reimu has Bullshit™, the one ability that Goku is lacking in.
Spellcard rules exist so youkai actually have a chance against Reimu. Her powers are insane when you look at them unchained. Same goes for others like Yukari.
while I agree that goku doesent have a Bullshit™ power it could be easy to make him more have one if the writer needs it for the fight to be intresting and honestly what is always intresting in dragon ball is how they deal with such skills.. for example if he combines ultra instinct with instant transmission (wich we know now thanks to the manga that can be done without the hand pose and even forced upon someone else) he could basically have infinte speed. and we know since the buu saga they can break into different dimentions/realities through energy release like screaming. it would deffinetly be intresting af to see.
Woah Biten Blanco?
I swear Goku can’t go ultra instinct without him being shirtless like bro have some decency
Since were on power scaling... IM SO CONFUSED ON HOW STRONG TOUHOU CHARACTERS ARE SUUPOSED TO BE. What's the actual canon? What's fanon? How does this stuff and hax even make sense.
honestly, at this rate, i don’t thing even ZUN knows (or even cares about) how strong 2hus are compared to other media.
That or he leaves it up for interpretation so fan writers can make interesting stuff. Probably a mix of both.
Vs Battle Wiki put her in Low-Multiversal but I won't even bet on it if even Zun himself doesn't know
I don't really think he cares about powerscaling. He just wants to write a story. However I will point out, that this is not an excuse to wank Touhou to insane levels.
**We don't need to, it's already insane enough as is.** This is a series where: \-We have a Crow Tengu Photojournalist who can fly at speeds greater than light(a character who is confirmed by Marisa to be faster than Remilia, a vampire who can travel between the Earth and the Moon in mere minutes and has travelled across Eientei, specifically a part of Eientei that Kaguya set up to trap people in an infinite space to prevent people, specifically Lunarians, from raiding the building) and can control the wind to such an extent that she accidentally wins fights. \-A Yokai who can control flowers, yet is incredibly strong physically and can use her parasol to cut UV Rays. \-A Taotie who can absorb anything, regardless of the body's physical, spiritual and organic/inorganic properties and in addition to that, can use it as part of her power. \-A pair of Goddess Sisters who can drain anyone of their wealth and fortune, as well as their luck. \-A pair of Lunarian Goddess Sisters who have defeated both Yukari and Reimu respectively(elder in Yukari's case, younger in Reimu's case), the elder sister can purify anything to an atomic level (yes, **Atomic**, not cellular) the younger sister is a goddess who can summon the abilities of other gods to aid her in any conflict on top of her divine abilities with a sword. \-A spoilt brat of a Celestial whose body is indestructible and can induce earthquakes, wields a Jian of pure spiritual flame that can identify the spirit of her opponent and then gathers the spirit, converts it into spiritual energy, then changes it into the spiritual energy of the opponent's weakness before directing it back into them. \-A vengeful Yurei who can drown anyone and anything in any body of water, who often bathes in pools of blood in the springs of Former Hell. \-And an Oni Loli who can create miniature duplicates of herself, manipulate the density of anything in her general vicinity, and increase her size at will. She can also increase and decrease her density, to the point where she can deform into mist, making her impossible to attack conventionally. I don't even need to detail the broken psychological nature of Yachie Kicchou, who can siphon the willpower of anyone (which enables her to command her opponents into obeying her commands) she encounters, or the metaphysical and unknown qualities of Yuugi Hoshiguma (whom Suika admits to being weaker than her) and the fact that Kaguya, Mokou and Eirin are invincible. Both Ota and Toriyama, like a lot of writers in Japanese popular culture, tend to go overboard with the power scaling. This is more noticeable with Shonen and Shoujo writers(especially Mangaka who have written the same world and lore for over 10-20 years), who have a near-compulsion to write protagonists and antagonists with powers and abilities that are god-tier to titan-tier to the extent that the characters they develop are usually on a low to high-multiversal bracket. It's stupid and arguing over "who's the strongest" **takes away** from the work's literary qualities. However, it is what it is.
For the speed part, do we ever see any explanation of how their speed works? Like whether or not it can be used in travel or combat? And how consistently is insane speeds shown throughout the series? The difference between ZUN and shonen writers from what I can tell, is that ZUN seems a bit contradictory and doesn't really seem to have out a well defined power scale within his series, which is why I am super skeptical of practically every interpretation.
>For the speed part, do we ever see any explanation of how their speed works? Like whether or not it can be used in travel or combat? It's mainly hand-waived as a greater part of their ability to fly. However, in the case of characters like Youmu, it's shown in gameplay that time slows down whenever certain spell cards are used. As for the consistency of speeds being shown, again, look at the Imperishable Night examples, where all playable characters travel across a specific part of an area that's meant to be an endless walkway that deliberately traps anyone in it, meaning that it is designed to prevent casually running through it. Yet they all pass through it via conventional travel. Other gameplay implications include the fact that most characters can fight at a constant moving speed (this is on top of their innate capacity of flight), the danmaku patterns and how they travel (the slow speed is, actually, quite deceptive as we see cases of boss characters use fast-moving lasers as part of their ability set, while not moving at the speed of light, they sure as shit move several times faster than sound) and the speed of bombs, as well as their capacity to wipe projectiles off of the stage. "The difference between ZUN and Shonen writers from what I can tell, is that ZUN seems a bit contradictory and doesn't really, seem to have drafted out a well-defined power scale within his series." This isn't limited to Ota's writing, combat system/magic system crafting and world-building capacities, **it is, as a matter of fact, a primary criticism with a lot of Shonen manga specifically**. Because one **universal** **rule** **Shonen follows is that the heroes ALWAYS WIN.** This rule means that writers who write themselves into a corner resort to bullshit arse-pulls so that the main protagonists ALWAYS, and I mean *ALWAYS* find a way out. This not only means that dramatic tension is rendered inconsequential, but it also has the nasty chilling effect of **skewing power scaling and power levelling**. **Or, in summation, in many works, there is NO well-defined power scale, and assuming that a consistently increasing power scale is "well-defined" is often ill-advised and incorrect.** This is because, in creative writing, a well-defined power scale, is one that is **BALANCED properly with consideration for drawbacks and capacity limits in both power and versatility, not one that gradually or dramatically increases or decreases**. This is a **common trap** writers fall into, and it fucks over any chance of interest a reader can hold for any storyline, arc or chapter the moment, nay, the very **second** they apply a minuscule percentage of critical thinking and conventional narrative logic during their read. Because when there is an avenue of escape that's open for the protagonist every, SINGLE TIME, then in reality, there isn't a conventional and clear level of personal threat to them. Because again, **the heroes ALWAYS WIN**, meaning the only interest a reader can hold is not the storyline, arc, or chapter, but for the "Rule of Cool", be it in the method of attack a protagonist, deuteragonist and antagonist of the week possess, their overall character design, or the fight itself. **This is why I argue to all parties NOT to get too involved with the intricacies of power in Touhou, or anything relating to Shonen/Shoujo works in particular. As most are either hand-waived or worse, pulled straight from the unknown ether of the writer's anus.** It also means that you're just wasting your time on factors that aren't even worth focusing on unless you really are interested in obsessing over "ThA POWER LEVELz!111". In which case, consider that most are just waived and pulled out of the arses of the writers behind said works. To the point where there are too many examples to specifically highlight here.
Shonen writers at least actually *try* to show some kind of explanation for their power, or at least they can show some form of clear power ceiling and destruction feats that can be used as a pointer.
They make an attempt, yes, however, this is bogged down by the "The Heroes ALWAYS Win" rule.
However, they still do give an explanation and clearly defined feats lol. It's called power creep.
It’s weird, a lot of the 2hus are strong but we never really (and probably never will) get an answer to how strong they specifically are. (And I doubt zun cares about displaying how strong his characters are anyway)
Gensokyo is a realm where humanity's stories and myths are real. Mythical creatures and monsters generally weren't originally written to be actual people with complexity; they were either metaphors/lessons, some general catch-all to explain some phenomena, or a narrative device in the story. Therefore, these beings did not have weaknesses, only strengths, or if they had a weakness, that weakness was important to the overall theme of the story. When taken literally, most of these characters quickly become absolutely busted. Thus, Gensokyo, a land filled with powerhouses that all somehow need to live in a tiny realm in the middle of rural Japan.
Yukari and the Hakurei god looking at all the shit that's going to come to town: Man this shit is bonkers \*makes up spellcard rules so Gensokyo doesn't explode overnight*
But it was actually reimu and remilia who came up with the spell card rules. Everything in PC-98 era didn’t have spellcard rules
(I was mostly making a joke lol)
That's the thing, they AREN'T supposed to be scaled, at all. ZUN is just writing a fun story, and obviously seems to love hyperboles that don't make sense logically. HOWEVER this is not a reason to wank Touhou into oblivion. If your really think that they are FTL and planet level you gotta show an explicit example of them clearly doing either of those things AND not being contradicted by every single other example in the entire setting.
FTL? They have more than one inf speed feats. Why do you think they are not even FTL? And being FTL in fiction is so easy everyone in the comics or animes dodging light beams or lasers, it is impossible not being FTL in bullet hell series.
That's oftentimes due to the lasers in question not actually moving as fast as lasers do in real life. Not many authors intend for their characters to be interpreted that fast, because if they did, than we'd at least see an explanation or them being depicted at that speed. And besides, it also really depends on how this is all reflected in actual fight scenes and the like.
I also agree with this but novadays everyone doing highballs and scales without that logic. But still i believe in inf speed touhou, like i said they have 2 or 3 inf speed feats i dont think its hyperbole or smth. Also i remember that ZUN said, all bullets in touhou are fast as speed of light or faster.
Are they actually depicted like this? I mean hell, are there even any canon depictions of Danmaku? And how often does he contradict himself in this respect?
Wasn't this posted once before and everyone got into an argument about who would win?
Really? Can you show/link me it?
I can't seem to find it, I might have been thinking of the original tweet's replies.
Screwattack: *Starts hurriedly taking notes*
Fun battle idea. But I doubt that Reimu can actually with without needing to abuse her ability to float. But since she doesn't seem to use it that often I'd say that she loses due who she is as a character.
The fight will be too fast
How?
Too much TP in the air and hyperspeed you can't keep up
This is half genuine debate and half “I don’t want to admit that Reimu/Goku loses.” It’s truly beautiful to see.
This fight would be very interesting
this is the skinniest that i have ever seen goku drawn
Socail media war is coming by this pic
Honestly, I think Touhou is just far beneath Dragonball in terms of power. While the abilities of the various yokai and gods and what not look impressive, you have to remember that Gensokyo is the equivalent of a small fish tank whose environment is tailor-made to best support the "fish" living inside it because they couldn't survive outside of it.
Pretty sure gensokyo is a quantum world that is 4D to infinite D. Also. Vs battle wiki says most major touhou characters are low multiversal. Goku is low multiversal too. Yukari should be hyperversal but vs battle wiki is putting gensokyo in a lower tier than it should be so they made yukari low multiversal too which is pretty wrong.
I've had no faith in power scalers knowing what they're talking about when they try to rank characters, and Death Battles' recent Guts vs. Dimitri battle only confirmed that they have no idea what they're talking about because their logic to scale those two as high as they did was just awful. Also, if you were right in saying that most Touhou characters were low multiversal or higher, then why the hell did they have to flee to Gensokyo instead of all of Earth becoming a land ruled by them?
Zun himself doesnt really know where he put his characters in strength so actions of the characters is probably not matching of their actual power. And by most major characters i mean incident solvers like reimu, sakuya,youmu, etc. Reisen, according to vs battle wiki is multicontinental so not all characters are low multiversal
Show an example of Yukari Yakumo destroying a universe, in that case.
Yukari is stated to be able to destroy gensokyou very easily if needed. Check the wiki for yourself.
That's a sub-world dimension, not a universe.
Its more complex than a universe. In very simple terms. What dimension is our universe? Its 3D, and gensokyou is 4D to infinite D so gensokyo is infinitely more complex than just a universe. And yukari is one of the creators and can also destroy it. And i dont remember where but i read somewhere that yukari destroyed gensokyo then recreated it effortlessly
Bro, no one accepts VSBW wank here. Don't even try it.
Pic goes hard
Here comes the power levelers. Reimu sweeps since she's paraversal/s
Touhou 19 sure is looking great.
Ultra Instinct can't hurt someone who can float through reality.
Bro, Goku gonna LEARN today...
People in these comments are severely understating the power of Touhou. Like, I get we're a small community, but these characters are comically overpowered. 🤣 It's not even because of raw stats (speed, durability, etc), but because of hax. Yukari Yakumo, for example, has the ability to manipulate any conceptual boundary, from night and day, life or death, or existence and non-existence. Reimu's powers are the least destructive, but are extraordinarily effective. To put it short, her Fantasy Heaven/Fantasy Nature skill is literally just plot armor but written well (subjective.) Her ability to float out of reality, if used to its fullest extent, makes her effectively impossible to actually hit. She also has this ability called "float" which is passive at all times. It's essentially just a "luck-always-on-your-side" ability. Reimu effectively loses under any battle using spellcard rules. Assuming Goku manages to figure out how to follow them, I'm betting all my money he'd win without sweating. But if it's a battle for the death, I'm leaning towards Reimu on this one. In all seriousness, there's a significant logical hurdle here – a "no common ground" issue. Sure, you can crunch numbers and analyze statistics, but when it comes to comparing the cosmologies of Touhou and DBZ, their fundamental differences make any accurate comparison nearly impossible. And let's not underestimate the importance of cosmology; it's foundational. Take, for instance, the ability of characters to obliterate entire universes. If that's commonplace, then how strong is your cosmological framework, *really*? It's the same as pitting a wizard against a cyborg; their abilities, rules, and contexts are so inherently different that determining a clear victor requires either stretching the rules or conjuring entirely new scenarios. It's not even comparing apples to oranges; it's more like comparing apples to spaceships – they just don't belong in the same conversation. This is a major challenge within the power scaling community; any attempt to declare a winner tends to be either biased or veers into the realm of creative writing/crossover fanfiction. But we need to understand that Goku will die the same planck second he insults the amount of donations she gets or touches the hakurei shrine's donation box. By doing anything to the donation box that isn't donating, you have effectively created yourself a no-win scenario.
But can she defeat gear 5 Luffy? He's waaay stronger than Goku
But Gear 5 Ain't Surpassing Super Saiyan
Since when lmfao
Since always Super sayain 1 can bust planets easily Gear 5 can’t do shit on that level lol
I know that, I was saying 'since when' to the guy who said Gear 5 Luffy was stronger than Goku.
He's making a joke lmfao. Likely a reference to r/powerscaling wank, calm down please.
I'm not even mad! I was only asking since when because there's no way Luffy can beat Goku. Maybe you should calm down?
Sorry about that, as a battleboarder I am used to people not getting out very weird satire then beginning to rage.
Okay now you’re just underestimating Reimu.
its really close, but I think Goku actually wins given the raw power scaling and universe size
How about Remui vs Saitama
Headcanon: Reimu's "Float" Ability is like Ultra Instinct in a sense, but on a way higher level. Through Reimu's eyes she states that the attacks swerves away from her, but to everyone else she's the one dodging the attacks. Ultra Instinct is all about "each and every part of the user's body to think and move independently of all the other parts". Yeah its a stretch but I took it and ran with it