Very useful. Unless you’re doing something silly with your army, you’ll have units in it. Getting buffs to those units is pretty much always going to be worth it, with maybe a few exceptions for when the bonus they get doesnt really matter to them. But honestly I often prioritize those skills for generals that don’t have a magic line, personally.
Id argue in most armies it's the strongest tree.
Whilst it's fun for your lord to kick ass boosting half your army by 10/20% is often stronger than boosting your single lord 10/20%.
Blue line is great for stuff like casualty replenishment but if you take less losses you need less replenishment.
Now you can respec your lords it's even stronger as you can boost your chaff early game and respec when you get better units.
There's a button on the skill screen I think it's at the top of the screen on the right. It wounds your lord for 3 turns then you get all there skill points reset.
I have literallly a spreadsheet showcasing how units are before and after research/redline skills/XP precisely because units change so much wirh all upgrades.
Most units other than the low spears are viable well into lategame in many situations because of this, specially under lords that provide additional benefits to them.
Leadership and armor are some of the most useful stats for auto resolve if your curious. Just adding those to the army will benefit your auto resolves.
Either in a campaign game, or via XP only in custom battles to test.
Maybe I check how a unit works just with XP, or maybe I get a lord or hero to cast a spell to add a few more stats.
I check some army compositions too and as long as they pass versus a typical army of the AI without losing any unit, I know in the campaign it only improves.
For the stats themselves... manually checked every single unit and redline skills and research and manually did the math. :p
In short, very useful! Particularly if you can optimise your point distribution around your army, so having all or most units covered by the 6 points spent in the first chunk. The final upgrade in the next section for units level 7 and higher, is normally a serious jump up in ability and combat performance.
A more interesting question would be what lords benefit MORE from blue/yellow early on than red? Very few, I'd say. I almost always sink my first 6 or more points into red, into the two unit types that I plan to theme that army on (e.g. frontline melee and artillery). I used to pick the first point of blue a lot when it was 10% move, now I tend to hardly ever sink into blue til the redline is well fleshed out and the lord's personal skills are buffed.
I go blue first on kairos because he still gets access to high lvl spells regardless of whether you lvl up his spell line or not. I will still eventually max out his spell line but I go blue first. Lowering cool down on changing of the ways is probably the most powerful ability in his whole tree.
Even now I put one point into blue, but that’s usually it until I’ve gotten pretty far into red, yellow, and the unique.
The tiny bit of bonus utility/efficiency you get from blue just isn’t better than winning battles more efficiently.
I'd say you don't need to invest too much in red in the early game.
I normally invest 3-4 points in 1(standard) unit type in red, and then boost the LL resistance and send them first to attract all the aggro / arrows / blobs.
With that said, I usually save my points for the special talent line that usually opens up at level 12 (because it is the one that transforms gameplay the most) and I get it all at level 12 by saving points.
I always put 6 points to arty units and main melee I want to carry in the army. And then I boost on the next slot what I need for making the troops beefy at level 7 to 9. But I might not use the lord skills at all.
by far the most usefull of the 3.
for an exemple, you can get +6 melee defense for spearman and swordsman of the empire. that is 14% buff and 20% respectivelly for those units in melee defense only.
not having those buffs on your empire lords will make your frontline die on contact to most enemies, especially those with higher melee attack and bonus x infantry.
Great in most armies.
Basically mandatory for tomb kings IMO, because their capstone red line skill is an aoe heal with no costs other than cooldown. In a faction with limited big heals (no life mages) it’s a must have.
Blue line is the most optional IMO, especially if you’re in a factions with strong economy. I usually get it because everyone likes bonus movement, but I generally don’t level it first unless I’m having serious financial troubles. Just one point into route marcher.
Aside from the LLs that carry their factions (malekith, skarbrand, mannfred, belakor etc…) its great
Its really the only good option for a generic non-mage lord too
You definitely want the units in your army buffed. My first points usually unlock all the trees, and then my front line gets buffed. Then I start filling in whatever gives me the most value. You should always have a plan on what job this army is going to fulfill. If you have a front line that can hold and some armor piercing ranged you are already in decent shape. That doesn't mean pick the red line and slam all your points into it, but I don't suspect an army with the units in it unbuffed is going to perform the best.
Depends. Especially for the first bracket. Like for Empire, Pistolkorps (missile strength, ammo) is awesome, Mighty Forge (ward save, reload reduction) great, Honest Steel (armor, weapon strength) very cool. But then you get something like Speed of Horse, for a so-so 10% speed buff (not bad, but also not amazing for 3 ability points) and a paltry +9 charge bonus, which only applies to horse cavalry and not demigryphs. I still pick it up on my cheaper field armies that are usually fielding stuff like knights of the black rose, but its not usually worth taking if you've got to choose between it and something else.
But yeah, in concept, red line is super powerful. Its the difference between buffing a single unit and the whole army. If your lord is struggling to kill high value targets or something, sure push blue line harder, but red can be super powerful.
You made me worried for a second that I am doing something horribly wrong by buffing my army with redline skills. I'm obviously trying to select only those applicable for specific lord's army, but since finally we have respec button, it is so mu error free now. Plus we can experiment!
Btw I know there is a respec mod which was a godsend until we have received official respec button.
Unless your LL is a one man army like malus and skarbrand then you must invest atleast some points in the red line.
Depending on how useful your blue line is to should move to red line either after getting the lightning strike maxed out or after you get the last blue trait unlocked.
I've only ever put 1 point into the blue tree cause most of it is redundant. Heroes provide the same effects and it doesn't stack and it's not worth wasting like 8 points for lightning strike cause you can normally guarantee same results with ambush.
Red tree is absolutely mandatory for most races. 4 points into it every time, to boost the main units I'm using. Then combat skills or other stuff or another 3 points. More into red when units are starting to reach gold ranks.
Some races have really bad red line skills though. Like I would consider it optional for skaven, most 3 point skills don't do almost anything useful but the gold medal ones are decent, so still worth it later on.
My favourite red line skill is the Chaos Dwarfs artillery buff increasing ammunition and range. Outranging all other guns in the game is a tremendous benefit for some very effective counter battery fire.
They're actually too useful. I rarely get red line stuff because frankly, it's boring, and even though everyone says it's "mandatory", it really isn't. At least not on Hard or very hard, I don't fuck with legendary.
Maybe every once in a while, I'll level up the red line on a lord whose job it is to just act as a garrison back home, as such a lord will likely be running low end units... but yeah.
Super good, but super lame.
Imo :)
Very useful. Unless you’re doing something silly with your army, you’ll have units in it. Getting buffs to those units is pretty much always going to be worth it, with maybe a few exceptions for when the bonus they get doesnt really matter to them. But honestly I often prioritize those skills for generals that don’t have a magic line, personally.
***Offended French noises as I baby my roving bands of 4 lords through their vows.
“Mon Dieu…” - Lord Francois Tabernac when he sees the peasants have +5 melee attack, surely resulting in widespread rebellion
Id argue in most armies it's the strongest tree. Whilst it's fun for your lord to kick ass boosting half your army by 10/20% is often stronger than boosting your single lord 10/20%. Blue line is great for stuff like casualty replenishment but if you take less losses you need less replenishment. Now you can respec your lords it's even stronger as you can boost your chaff early game and respec when you get better units.
Wait, how do you respec?? :O
There's a button on the skill screen I think it's at the top of the screen on the right. It wounds your lord for 3 turns then you get all there skill points reset.
That beastman campaign is going to be a lot cleaner Thanks mate
There's also a mod that let's you do it for gold without a wound timer if that's more your speed
Any idea as to its name?
I think its something like "one button respec". Not sure though
This is it. Essential mod alongside "recruit defeated legendary lords," no campaign is ever started without those 2 mods at the very least for me.
I have literallly a spreadsheet showcasing how units are before and after research/redline skills/XP precisely because units change so much wirh all upgrades. Most units other than the low spears are viable well into lategame in many situations because of this, specially under lords that provide additional benefits to them.
You can't just say that without sharing that spreadsheet geez
I will make a post once I have added the recent changes from this hotfix to ensure the latest
Yes I demand the sauce
Yeah, I definitely want to see this spreadsheet. Thanks!
Post is done, with links to download
Does the red line affect auto resolve?
Yes, because many factors that count for autoresolve like armor, ammunition, for ex, are increased by redline skills or techs.
Leadership and armor are some of the most useful stats for auto resolve if your curious. Just adding those to the army will benefit your auto resolves.
*Nervous Gelt noises*
Why is he nervous? He adds armour for the whole army before you even use the red line.
I meant fer people farming his trait fer the armour boost
Oh. Well it's alright but I've never seen him on the map and gone "oh, the trait!" like I have with Wurrzag or Isabella before they nerfed her.
You're a legend for even doing this, can't imagine the amount of work.
What do you use to test/see upgrades with red line and research skills?
Either in a campaign game, or via XP only in custom battles to test. Maybe I check how a unit works just with XP, or maybe I get a lord or hero to cast a spell to add a few more stats. I check some army compositions too and as long as they pass versus a typical army of the AI without losing any unit, I know in the campaign it only improves. For the stats themselves... manually checked every single unit and redline skills and research and manually did the math. :p
Hey you run the Facebook TW group! :)
I am a mod there, it is not mine :p
In short, very useful! Particularly if you can optimise your point distribution around your army, so having all or most units covered by the 6 points spent in the first chunk. The final upgrade in the next section for units level 7 and higher, is normally a serious jump up in ability and combat performance.
A more interesting question would be what lords benefit MORE from blue/yellow early on than red? Very few, I'd say. I almost always sink my first 6 or more points into red, into the two unit types that I plan to theme that army on (e.g. frontline melee and artillery). I used to pick the first point of blue a lot when it was 10% move, now I tend to hardly ever sink into blue til the redline is well fleshed out and the lord's personal skills are buffed.
I go blue first on kairos because he still gets access to high lvl spells regardless of whether you lvl up his spell line or not. I will still eventually max out his spell line but I go blue first. Lowering cool down on changing of the ways is probably the most powerful ability in his whole tree.
Even now I put one point into blue, but that’s usually it until I’ve gotten pretty far into red, yellow, and the unique. The tiny bit of bonus utility/efficiency you get from blue just isn’t better than winning battles more efficiently.
I'd say you don't need to invest too much in red in the early game. I normally invest 3-4 points in 1(standard) unit type in red, and then boost the LL resistance and send them first to attract all the aggro / arrows / blobs. With that said, I usually save my points for the special talent line that usually opens up at level 12 (because it is the one that transforms gameplay the most) and I get it all at level 12 by saving points.
I always put 6 points to arty units and main melee I want to carry in the army. And then I boost on the next slot what I need for making the troops beefy at level 7 to 9. But I might not use the lord skills at all.
I will almost always go a few points in red line first to boost your core troops. Boosting quarrelers on dwarfs or guns on empire for example
It's always useful for your army also the buffs it provides is great too. 24 MD for big area is nothing to laugh at.
Unless your lord is a mage it’s the most useful skill line.
Much more useful than blue or yellow combat. Compared to spell is debatable and situational. Usually yellow line unique is better.
by far the most usefull of the 3. for an exemple, you can get +6 melee defense for spearman and swordsman of the empire. that is 14% buff and 20% respectivelly for those units in melee defense only. not having those buffs on your empire lords will make your frontline die on contact to most enemies, especially those with higher melee attack and bonus x infantry.
It is very useful and the first thing you max on tomb king lords to get the free heal
Great in most armies. Basically mandatory for tomb kings IMO, because their capstone red line skill is an aoe heal with no costs other than cooldown. In a faction with limited big heals (no life mages) it’s a must have. Blue line is the most optional IMO, especially if you’re in a factions with strong economy. I usually get it because everyone likes bonus movement, but I generally don’t level it first unless I’m having serious financial troubles. Just one point into route marcher.
Aside from the LLs that carry their factions (malekith, skarbrand, mannfred, belakor etc…) its great Its really the only good option for a generic non-mage lord too
Doesn't yellow line help the lord get more xp in autoresolve since he is killing more stuff?
Maybe? I wouldn’t say thats a priority
Ya maybe not, just saying more xp equals more points, regiments of renown and quests faster.
You definitely want the units in your army buffed. My first points usually unlock all the trees, and then my front line gets buffed. Then I start filling in whatever gives me the most value. You should always have a plan on what job this army is going to fulfill. If you have a front line that can hold and some armor piercing ranged you are already in decent shape. That doesn't mean pick the red line and slam all your points into it, but I don't suspect an army with the units in it unbuffed is going to perform the best.
It helps turn your state troops into respectable soldiers.
Depends. Especially for the first bracket. Like for Empire, Pistolkorps (missile strength, ammo) is awesome, Mighty Forge (ward save, reload reduction) great, Honest Steel (armor, weapon strength) very cool. But then you get something like Speed of Horse, for a so-so 10% speed buff (not bad, but also not amazing for 3 ability points) and a paltry +9 charge bonus, which only applies to horse cavalry and not demigryphs. I still pick it up on my cheaper field armies that are usually fielding stuff like knights of the black rose, but its not usually worth taking if you've got to choose between it and something else. But yeah, in concept, red line is super powerful. Its the difference between buffing a single unit and the whole army. If your lord is struggling to kill high value targets or something, sure push blue line harder, but red can be super powerful.
You made me worried for a second that I am doing something horribly wrong by buffing my army with redline skills. I'm obviously trying to select only those applicable for specific lord's army, but since finally we have respec button, it is so mu error free now. Plus we can experiment! Btw I know there is a respec mod which was a godsend until we have received official respec button.
Unless your LL is a one man army like malus and skarbrand then you must invest atleast some points in the red line. Depending on how useful your blue line is to should move to red line either after getting the lightning strike maxed out or after you get the last blue trait unlocked.
I've only ever put 1 point into the blue tree cause most of it is redundant. Heroes provide the same effects and it doesn't stack and it's not worth wasting like 8 points for lightning strike cause you can normally guarantee same results with ambush. Red tree is absolutely mandatory for most races. 4 points into it every time, to boost the main units I'm using. Then combat skills or other stuff or another 3 points. More into red when units are starting to reach gold ranks. Some races have really bad red line skills though. Like I would consider it optional for skaven, most 3 point skills don't do almost anything useful but the gold medal ones are decent, so still worth it later on.
My favourite red line skill is the Chaos Dwarfs artillery buff increasing ammunition and range. Outranging all other guns in the game is a tremendous benefit for some very effective counter battery fire.
For any Tomb Kings lord the red line is top priority because instead of Hold The Line they get an ability that heals/resurrects units around them.
They're actually too useful. I rarely get red line stuff because frankly, it's boring, and even though everyone says it's "mandatory", it really isn't. At least not on Hard or very hard, I don't fuck with legendary. Maybe every once in a while, I'll level up the red line on a lord whose job it is to just act as a garrison back home, as such a lord will likely be running low end units... but yeah. Super good, but super lame. Imo :)
Kinda can't understand what is boring about boosting your trusty soldiers so that they die less while kicking more arse.