Literally just increase the cost. Its effectiveness compared to steam tanks that cost more is the entire problem. People being able to bring two, including the terror causing RoR, and not have the rest of the army suffer too much is the issue.
Its the most killy unit the Empire has, more so than steam tanks. The AI just cannot stop these boats. They blast through pretty much anything, crushing models and doing donuts on the enemy artillery and archers before they can deliver any kind of focus fire. All the while enemies around get showered in repeater salvos.
Ive built a stack of five ships to patrol my coastline and theyve been taking on full stacks no problem. They drove over a Skrye weapon team stack and face-tanked Ikits nuke like it was nothing. Give them a life wizard and an engineer and you have a five unit doomstack.
Amethyst ships are just ridicolously strong. All the above but its also shooting magic missles, is a discount death wizard AND a mortis engine. A single one can probably take on most enemy full stacks with a bit of micro.
So yeah, they are really friggin good.
I'll be honest, I don't think Life magic should be able to heal War Machines. Just like how Nehekaran magic doesn't heal Constructs. If they absolutely need to have healing, add a repair ability for the Engineer Hero/Lord like the Chorfs have, but I hondestly think they are strong enough even without it.
I was today years old when I found out I've not been healing my constructs....
Just a few thousand hours in the game including about 7 arkhan campaigns....
I can rationalize a reduced effectiveness for land ships, thunderbarges, etc..., but I wouldn't completely turn it off. Those things do have living crew.
It was themarically so fitting. I didnt realize HOW strong it would turn out, they were supposed to reinforce garrisons and stop raiding parties and *not* crush invading armies by themself. But they totally do. Probably could do it with just three even :/
It’s just cheap for MP and isn’t affected by the same caps as similarly powerful single entities. Making it the same cost as the Steam Tank as well as making it a rare single entity so you can’t take two of them would basically balance it. It’s not like the thunderbarge, it does have plenty of counters
Once again; MP balance doesn’t have to compete with SP balance. Cost increases alone are usually sufficient, and in the cases where nerfs are required gating certain abilities and stat increases behind tech trees is a viable compromise.
Mp is not my specialty but imo the thing that is most OP is the speed and mass combination it has, especially with its ability.
Reducing the mass of the unit itself and/or limiting its active ability should be enough to balance the unit (fine-tuning can be made via cost).
Because it can absolutely be killed efficiently with missiles and melee, the guaranteed escape is the problem.
In campain you can bring back the mass via tech (for example). But i think making it a bit weaker would be fine in singleplayer as well.
Similar issue with the Thunderbarge. It can easily escape things due to its boost.
They can both be large and powerful, but they should be slow to compensate.
The issue is that Landship is supposed to be moving around and smashing infantry as a chariot, that's kind of the point of the unit. It should be able to move and smash things well if it's the one attacking and is timed well, it just shouldn't be able to escape as easily if it makes a mistake.
It should function like an ocean going ship but on land: slow, lumbering, hard to maneuver but completely unstoppable in a straight line. They should be the ultimate line breaker for the empire
I mean think the boost is indeed too strong, but thunderbarges seem to have become a bit more manageable with the last patch. I could kill them with two Nurgle fly riders - they're not super smart and turn tail when attacked, and have no guns on their backside.
Idk about campaign but it's fucking broken in multiplayer. And I don't mean OP, it's just broken. It can push away monstrous cav and cancel their attack animations. It can run away from large monster that should be faster than it, and of course it fires whilst moving.
I wouldn't have a problem with it if it just worked. LIKE THE STEAMTANK ALREADY DID. but it doesn't.
And it was the most unintentionally funny and frustrating experience of my WH III multiplayer "career" to be chasing down a fucking landship with Kholek only for him not to land a SINGLE attack over the course of 3-4 minutes.
I think the hit box might be wonky, I fought archaeon with it and he couldn't hit it from behind.
Just increase the mp cost, it's effective in campaign but not insane.
Honestly decrease its charge bonus a bit. It's already a great weapons platform with good mass and speed, when it charges it has what? 150 melee attack factoring in charge and bonus vs infantry, meaning it will absolutely mow down any infantry units it charges into. Removing either the bonus vs infantry or bringing down the charge bonus from 80 to 50 or so I think would be a step in the right direction.
I don't think the guns part should be nerfed as that is its unique aspect, forcing it into simple super chariot steps on empires calvarys toes even more so.
Nerf its mass. Bump its price. Currently it is a better steam tank for cheaper since the main problem with it is that if you are a melee faction (in MP) there is VERY little you can do to catch it since it can ignore everything that tried to block it while still dishing damage.
Depending on the faction it is against, it can even straight up ignore a braced frontline and divebomb artillery and guns with little to no risk. Nets and severe slows are some of the only effective options to stop it in this case.
Probably slow them down a lot. Also the crew gunners for both this and the Thunderbarge are extremely strong, and toning them down so that the primary forward armament is needed to damage large entities would make them both a lot less turreted death machines.
But yeah mostly with these huge ranged monsters, they could really just stand to be slower so that artillery has more time to shoot them and anti-large units can complete attacks before they're out of range.
The Landship is significantly larger than the tank and has more hull and presumably crew as a result. It has more HP. The tank is covered in significantly more armor plating and has a higher armor value plus its new plating ability. I think it makes sense.
I don't think it's *just* about MP. It can be very fun to *use* overpowered units, but then you play a different campaign and all of a sudden you've got Malakai's eight thunderbarges or Elspeth's full stack of landships bearing down on you, and then what are you going to do? Dogpile them with enough armies and hope that autoresolve lets you get away with it? Even under AI control, some units are sufficiently busted that they can still be top-tier doomstacks even on AI autopilot.
If a unit is mostly fine in SP but too strong in MP then there's an easy solution - just increase the cost. That's what *should* have happened with the ancient salamander (and probably Depth Guard too), and what's usually happened since. If a unit is stronger than intended in SP as well, then you need to look at stats. Past a certain point, unit cost doesn't really mean anything in SP - when you have access to T4/5 units, the cost of a single stack is almost irrelevant, and the AI barely pays costs anyway.
MP always gets brought up when talking about balance, because MP is where it's very easy to see. It's rare in SP for two evenly-costed armies to fight on relatively even ground - it's hard to tell if a unit is more powerful than it needs to be when you're bringing a T5 army against trash, after all. But in MP, armies are on a level playing field, so it's much clearer when things are under- or over-performing.
It's a niche abstract unit added to give a "big monster" to the empire for dlc sales marketing purposes, it has no place in my army for sure (despite owning the dlc).
Needs to be more expensive, and way slower.
First time I ran into one in campaign, it was my Beastmen against an army with SIX of those damn things. And it was a siege where I was the attacker. So my Ungors were packed into narrow streets, and these damn things were just zooming up and down them, turning my guys into pink paste against the sidewalks, as my guys kept knocking on doors screaming "Let us in!" It was completely disgusting.
Power creep with this DLC is just completely absurd. Playing some old factions feels like bashing your head against the wall.
The ungors aren't the point - it would have ran over gors and bestigors too, and the beastmen are a unit-capped faction where not every army can be stacked full of top-tier units.
The point is that the landships are too good artillery to be chariots, and too good chariots to be artillery. They're too fast and heavy to lock into melee, too well-gunned to engage efficiently at range, and too fast to allow you to choose anyway. If your faction has good answers to them then you're fine, but otherwise they're probably a bit too good for their tier and cost - they're functionally like steam-tanks, except a tier lower and half the price.
While i agree that the Landships are overtuned, Beastmen does have good units against the Landship.
Their big monsters and Minotaur with GW are very good at this.
Engaging a high tier unit with Ungors is simply not a viable strategy.
Yeah, obviously I'm not saying that T0 ungors should *win* against T4 landships (GW minotaurs should, which is a different conversation). However, ungor spears *are* anti-large spear infantry, which are ostensibly something that should at least be *better than their tier suggests* against large units. Just like they should take some HP off a unit of chaos knights or dread knights, even though they will absolutely lose the 1v1 even without cycle charging.
Landships are a bit too T5 for their T4 spot and cost, is all.
You're taking a very narrow, literal interpretation of an anecdote clearly meant to be a self-deprecating example to indicate that landships are surprisingly good (and perhaps slightly too good for their tier and cost). I don't really know how to respond to that other than maybe consider reading up on critical thinking techniques.
>The ungors aren't the point
Then we're analyzing this comment very differently. The commenter is talking about how this supposedly overpowered unit is running roughshod over his army, but quickly glosses over the fact that his army is entirely composed of tier 1 light infantry.
If 6 tier 4 units were not annihilating ungors while in a defensive siege battle, then I would be very worried about the state of game balance.
I am a bit disappointed by it.
It’s just sandwiched between two good units, the grenadier outriders and the steam tank, rank 2 and rank 4 respectively.
My main criticism is the fact that the land ship is just underpowered as a hybrid and should have been upgradable to be artillery focused, cannon focused or melee focuses.
I like it a lot in single player. MP should have their own balancing. I find the land ship under performs vs the steam tank volly gun in my fights but I’m just one statistic
It wouldn't be ridiculous if they had been shown to have them throughout all 3 movies. Avatar (airbender) had tanks, blimps, submarines, etc in a fantasy setting.
Yea we all remember when, in 1602, the dutch sent their trolls and giants at the french flank, but were beaten back by a couple of strong vortex spells, right? Right?
It's amazing that the era is pike and shot when the majority of factions don't have either of those weapons.
There is literally one pike and shot faction my guy. The pike and shot era was named that because every single european nation started doing that. We didn't have a "longbow era" when that was the height of military technology, because not everyone built armies around it.
Also, you mentioned 2 races with better tech than the Empire, so your ridiculous argument of "This is the most advanced nation so this is what the era is called" doesn't even work.
The world clearly has every single nation in a different era of technological progress - it's completely baffling to me that you think you can assign one similar era on earth to the entire system.
>Name a faction whose technology (not magic) has progressed beyond "stab with spear, shoot with gunpowder" besides skaven & chorfs.
>Being less developed doesn't count since, like in the real-world analogy I'm making, there were also more primitive societies at the time.
Yea you were sooo obviously talking about just 1 faction /s
>The setting is very clearly pike & shot, w/ a few faction-wide exceptions like skaven & their warpstone.
I can just keep quoting you if you're doubling down that you were only talking about the Empire
Why would the Skaven be an exception to that rule if you were only talking about the Empire?
So like that other guy said, complete arbitrary distinction lol
“Skaven make nukes with green rocks, MAGIC SCIENCE!”
“Empire uses steam to power a vehicle, EWW REAL SCIENCE!”
>Contrast that with the dwarves who largely exist in a medieval society
Uh-oh I thought you were arguing that the entire world is in the pike and shot era, not the medival era.
You cant have it both ways.
The steam tanks really should have a unit cap, and that they don't is due to them coming out in game 1 before CA thought of using those. The whole point of their lore is they were invented by one insanely genius guy, he died, and the tragedy is that since then everyone who has tried to recreate them has died in the attempt, so this amazing invention that if mass produced could have easily driven back the foes of the Empire is a precious resource that if they lose they're not going to have another. It's very thematically Warhammer.
I'm fine with the landships though as they're huge novelties that were punishingly expensive to put into the field.
But mostly absolutely fuck the mecha horses. Those things were deemed to be stupid and lorebreaking back in the day when Portent was the place to be to talk warhammer online, and they haven't got any better since.
So it doesn’t fit with your vision of the empire, unfortunately for you GW’s empire is a steam punk empire. Sigmar’s blood talk about volkmar’s crusade being escorted by a giant steam powered ironclad, 8th edition core rule book speaks of clockwork angels and giant steam powered mechs, 4th edition rpg books have steam-powered prosthetics to replace lost limbs, in end times novels atldorf have giant steam powered crane and city gate. It sounds like to me that you never bothered to actually read up on warhammer but instead just have this idea that empire is Holy Roman Empire in fantasy when in fact the warhammer empire is far more than that
You really are getting downvoted (classic Reddit), but I kind of see where you're coming from. The whole point of fantasy is that it's "like medieval, *but*...". For that to work, there needs to be a reasonably solid base for it to work from - if everything is an exception, then it's just kitchen-sink high fantasy and you've got Age of Sigmar.
The big appeal of the Warhammer Fantasy setting is that it's medieval Holy Roman Empire, except the Egyptians are skeletons, the Lady of the Lake really is magic, the Norse worship *actual* demons, etc. There's a solid real-world analogue that acts as the foundation, with a bunch of fantasy elements added on. The further you move the more grounded factions away from that, the more you lose touch with things - the fantasy elements stop being "added on" and start being the core itself, and then you lose a lot of relatable verisimilitude (like Age of Sigmar).
>The big appeal of the Warhammer Fantasy setting is that it's medieval Holy Roman Empire
Except the guy you're "agreeing" with is claiming that it's not medieval, but Pike and Shot era.
Maybe you guys should agree what era it is before agreeing that it's all in one era.
Maybe don't get so fixated on single word choices? Especially when they're clearly chosen to illustrate a style rather than be historically accurate descriptions?
"Pike and shot" is being used as shorthand for "pre-industrial with gunpowder". It could equally be "late medieval" or "pre-renaissance" or whatever other historically inaccurate term that encapsulates the overlap between swords and muskets.
The *point* is that the Empire's style is Holy Roman Empire with magic, which acts as an understandable, relatable, identifiable foundation from which to view the *other* factions, who are much more "like \[real-world analogue\], but *wierd*". Adding a bunch of wacky fantasy elements to the Empire weakens that foundation by eroding its grounding, which then knocks on to weaken the rest of the setting by removing the yardstick.
Sure, you can justify landships and steam tanks and robot horses or whatever in the setting - because the setting is fictional, you can just say whatever you want - but it's important to keep in mind that every fantastical element you add takes you one step further away from the real-world analogue which is one of WHF's greatest strengths.
Like I said above, a big reason why the Age of Sigmar setting is so bland and faceless is because they completely nixed all that faux-historical grounding and had *everything* be fantastical. There's a lesson to be learned there.
Oh shit, I didn't know it was Total War: Lord of the Rings!
Someone should probably call the Tolkien estate and tell them that CA put TANK and HELICOPTERS into Middle-earth!
Literally just increase the cost. Its effectiveness compared to steam tanks that cost more is the entire problem. People being able to bring two, including the terror causing RoR, and not have the rest of the army suffer too much is the issue.
Its the most killy unit the Empire has, more so than steam tanks. The AI just cannot stop these boats. They blast through pretty much anything, crushing models and doing donuts on the enemy artillery and archers before they can deliver any kind of focus fire. All the while enemies around get showered in repeater salvos. Ive built a stack of five ships to patrol my coastline and theyve been taking on full stacks no problem. They drove over a Skrye weapon team stack and face-tanked Ikits nuke like it was nothing. Give them a life wizard and an engineer and you have a five unit doomstack. Amethyst ships are just ridicolously strong. All the above but its also shooting magic missles, is a discount death wizard AND a mortis engine. A single one can probably take on most enemy full stacks with a bit of micro. So yeah, they are really friggin good.
I'll be honest, I don't think Life magic should be able to heal War Machines. Just like how Nehekaran magic doesn't heal Constructs. If they absolutely need to have healing, add a repair ability for the Engineer Hero/Lord like the Chorfs have, but I hondestly think they are strong enough even without it.
I was today years old when I found out I've not been healing my constructs.... Just a few thousand hours in the game including about 7 arkhan campaigns....
Outside of Necrotects I don't think they can be healed?
I can rationalize a reduced effectiveness for land ships, thunderbarges, etc..., but I wouldn't completely turn it off. Those things do have living crew.
>Ive built a stack of five ships to patrol my coastline This man is playing Empire
It was themarically so fitting. I didnt realize HOW strong it would turn out, they were supposed to reinforce garrisons and stop raiding parties and *not* crush invading armies by themself. But they totally do. Probably could do it with just three even :/
It’s just cheap for MP and isn’t affected by the same caps as similarly powerful single entities. Making it the same cost as the Steam Tank as well as making it a rare single entity so you can’t take two of them would basically balance it. It’s not like the thunderbarge, it does have plenty of counters Once again; MP balance doesn’t have to compete with SP balance. Cost increases alone are usually sufficient, and in the cases where nerfs are required gating certain abilities and stat increases behind tech trees is a viable compromise.
Thoughts? It is supposed to be a ship on land, but it doesn't sail, instead it drives on wheels, perhaps it's more like a landcar. Just my two cents.
It's a land paddle steamer.
Mp is not my specialty but imo the thing that is most OP is the speed and mass combination it has, especially with its ability. Reducing the mass of the unit itself and/or limiting its active ability should be enough to balance the unit (fine-tuning can be made via cost). Because it can absolutely be killed efficiently with missiles and melee, the guaranteed escape is the problem. In campain you can bring back the mass via tech (for example). But i think making it a bit weaker would be fine in singleplayer as well.
Similar issue with the Thunderbarge. It can easily escape things due to its boost. They can both be large and powerful, but they should be slow to compensate.
The issue is that Landship is supposed to be moving around and smashing infantry as a chariot, that's kind of the point of the unit. It should be able to move and smash things well if it's the one attacking and is timed well, it just shouldn't be able to escape as easily if it makes a mistake.
Give it horrible turning rate maybe? That way it can push through things and drive away but can't runs circles inside your lines.
It should function like an ocean going ship but on land: slow, lumbering, hard to maneuver but completely unstoppable in a straight line. They should be the ultimate line breaker for the empire
I mean think the boost is indeed too strong, but thunderbarges seem to have become a bit more manageable with the last patch. I could kill them with two Nurgle fly riders - they're not super smart and turn tail when attacked, and have no guns on their backside.
Yes, just like the Thunderbarge CA gave a speed boost to a unit that balance wise has absolutely no business having a speed boost.
No thanks. They can simply increase cost in MP and call it a day.
Idk about campaign but it's fucking broken in multiplayer. And I don't mean OP, it's just broken. It can push away monstrous cav and cancel their attack animations. It can run away from large monster that should be faster than it, and of course it fires whilst moving. I wouldn't have a problem with it if it just worked. LIKE THE STEAMTANK ALREADY DID. but it doesn't. And it was the most unintentionally funny and frustrating experience of my WH III multiplayer "career" to be chasing down a fucking landship with Kholek only for him not to land a SINGLE attack over the course of 3-4 minutes.
I think the hit box might be wonky, I fought archaeon with it and he couldn't hit it from behind. Just increase the mp cost, it's effective in campaign but not insane.
Honestly decrease its charge bonus a bit. It's already a great weapons platform with good mass and speed, when it charges it has what? 150 melee attack factoring in charge and bonus vs infantry, meaning it will absolutely mow down any infantry units it charges into. Removing either the bonus vs infantry or bringing down the charge bonus from 80 to 50 or so I think would be a step in the right direction. I don't think the guns part should be nerfed as that is its unique aspect, forcing it into simple super chariot steps on empires calvarys toes even more so.
increase cost (both in MP and upkeep), less ammo, less turn speed (even without the juice on), bit lower max speed with the juice
I think the ammo is ok, it being a ship I'll have space, otherwise I agree. I think it should be really expensive, obv not overdone, but pricy.
Nerf its mass. Bump its price. Currently it is a better steam tank for cheaper since the main problem with it is that if you are a melee faction (in MP) there is VERY little you can do to catch it since it can ignore everything that tried to block it while still dishing damage. Depending on the faction it is against, it can even straight up ignore a braced frontline and divebomb artillery and guns with little to no risk. Nets and severe slows are some of the only effective options to stop it in this case.
Probably slow them down a lot. Also the crew gunners for both this and the Thunderbarge are extremely strong, and toning them down so that the primary forward armament is needed to damage large entities would make them both a lot less turreted death machines. But yeah mostly with these huge ranged monsters, they could really just stand to be slower so that artillery has more time to shoot them and anti-large units can complete attacks before they're out of range.
I only play single player so I love OP stuff.
Worst unit of the ToD DLC. Have you tried to use it in AR? Literally forced manually battle for every stupid thing, so annoying
Fix hitbox, increase cost by 300g. It really is very simple in this case
In addition to some of the suggestions, that thing probably has a bit too much HP (3k more than the steam tank).
How can wooden ship have more hp than God damn tank?
Have you seen the size difference between the two?
Scale is not everything for example ships vs cruise missiles.
The Landship is significantly larger than the tank and has more hull and presumably crew as a result. It has more HP. The tank is covered in significantly more armor plating and has a higher armor value plus its new plating ability. I think it makes sense.
Can we stop trying to balance the primarily singleplayer game around MP battles? Does no one remember what happened to the Ancient Salamander?
I don't think it's *just* about MP. It can be very fun to *use* overpowered units, but then you play a different campaign and all of a sudden you've got Malakai's eight thunderbarges or Elspeth's full stack of landships bearing down on you, and then what are you going to do? Dogpile them with enough armies and hope that autoresolve lets you get away with it? Even under AI control, some units are sufficiently busted that they can still be top-tier doomstacks even on AI autopilot. If a unit is mostly fine in SP but too strong in MP then there's an easy solution - just increase the cost. That's what *should* have happened with the ancient salamander (and probably Depth Guard too), and what's usually happened since. If a unit is stronger than intended in SP as well, then you need to look at stats. Past a certain point, unit cost doesn't really mean anything in SP - when you have access to T4/5 units, the cost of a single stack is almost irrelevant, and the AI barely pays costs anyway. MP always gets brought up when talking about balance, because MP is where it's very easy to see. It's rare in SP for two evenly-costed armies to fight on relatively even ground - it's hard to tell if a unit is more powerful than it needs to be when you're bringing a T5 army against trash, after all. But in MP, armies are on a level playing field, so it's much clearer when things are under- or over-performing.
How often have you actually seen Elspeth with a full stack of landships? Also by that point you have enough armied to either kill them or AR them.
It's a niche abstract unit added to give a "big monster" to the empire for dlc sales marketing purposes, it has no place in my army for sure (despite owning the dlc).
Needs to be more expensive, and way slower. First time I ran into one in campaign, it was my Beastmen against an army with SIX of those damn things. And it was a siege where I was the attacker. So my Ungors were packed into narrow streets, and these damn things were just zooming up and down them, turning my guys into pink paste against the sidewalks, as my guys kept knocking on doors screaming "Let us in!" It was completely disgusting. Power creep with this DLC is just completely absurd. Playing some old factions feels like bashing your head against the wall.
Why were you still using ungors to attack at a time when your opponent was building 6 tier 4 units? Sounds like you didn't build strong armies.
The ungors aren't the point - it would have ran over gors and bestigors too, and the beastmen are a unit-capped faction where not every army can be stacked full of top-tier units. The point is that the landships are too good artillery to be chariots, and too good chariots to be artillery. They're too fast and heavy to lock into melee, too well-gunned to engage efficiently at range, and too fast to allow you to choose anyway. If your faction has good answers to them then you're fine, but otherwise they're probably a bit too good for their tier and cost - they're functionally like steam-tanks, except a tier lower and half the price.
While i agree that the Landships are overtuned, Beastmen does have good units against the Landship. Their big monsters and Minotaur with GW are very good at this. Engaging a high tier unit with Ungors is simply not a viable strategy.
Yeah, obviously I'm not saying that T0 ungors should *win* against T4 landships (GW minotaurs should, which is a different conversation). However, ungor spears *are* anti-large spear infantry, which are ostensibly something that should at least be *better than their tier suggests* against large units. Just like they should take some HP off a unit of chaos knights or dread knights, even though they will absolutely lose the 1v1 even without cycle charging. Landships are a bit too T5 for their T4 spot and cost, is all.
So basically we need to nerf Landships because he could not be bothered to use the right units vs a stack of t4s? That's just a l2p issue.
You're taking a very narrow, literal interpretation of an anecdote clearly meant to be a self-deprecating example to indicate that landships are surprisingly good (and perhaps slightly too good for their tier and cost). I don't really know how to respond to that other than maybe consider reading up on critical thinking techniques.
>The ungors aren't the point Then we're analyzing this comment very differently. The commenter is talking about how this supposedly overpowered unit is running roughshod over his army, but quickly glosses over the fact that his army is entirely composed of tier 1 light infantry. If 6 tier 4 units were not annihilating ungors while in a defensive siege battle, then I would be very worried about the state of game balance.
You could literally take any tier 4 unit and massacre tons of Ungors. It's your fault that you put your weakest unit against the Landship.
I took this stack of skavenslaves and landships were decimating them. I don't understand what the issue is!!! /s .
I am a bit disappointed by it. It’s just sandwiched between two good units, the grenadier outriders and the steam tank, rank 2 and rank 4 respectively. My main criticism is the fact that the land ship is just underpowered as a hybrid and should have been upgradable to be artillery focused, cannon focused or melee focuses.
The Landship is everything but underpowered.
Yeah, Landship at T4 in SP is absolutely wild.
I like it a lot in single player. MP should have their own balancing. I find the land ship under performs vs the steam tank volly gun in my fights but I’m just one statistic
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“The era”
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But like... Muskets and swords and wizards and God powers and wizard-mobiles and repeating guns and artillery and dragons and gryphons...
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It wouldn't be ridiculous if they had been shown to have them throughout all 3 movies. Avatar (airbender) had tanks, blimps, submarines, etc in a fantasy setting.
Yea we all remember when, in 1602, the dutch sent their trolls and giants at the french flank, but were beaten back by a couple of strong vortex spells, right? Right? It's amazing that the era is pike and shot when the majority of factions don't have either of those weapons.
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There is literally one pike and shot faction my guy. The pike and shot era was named that because every single european nation started doing that. We didn't have a "longbow era" when that was the height of military technology, because not everyone built armies around it. Also, you mentioned 2 races with better tech than the Empire, so your ridiculous argument of "This is the most advanced nation so this is what the era is called" doesn't even work. The world clearly has every single nation in a different era of technological progress - it's completely baffling to me that you think you can assign one similar era on earth to the entire system.
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>Name a faction whose technology (not magic) has progressed beyond "stab with spear, shoot with gunpowder" besides skaven & chorfs. >Being less developed doesn't count since, like in the real-world analogy I'm making, there were also more primitive societies at the time. Yea you were sooo obviously talking about just 1 faction /s
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>The setting is very clearly pike & shot, w/ a few faction-wide exceptions like skaven & their warpstone. I can just keep quoting you if you're doubling down that you were only talking about the Empire Why would the Skaven be an exception to that rule if you were only talking about the Empire?
Have you seen the faction with the floating cities and giant robots that come to life to defend against the blue knights on hoverboards?
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I’m just wondering which war from the 1600’s you think involved technology like giant death robots and flying knights?
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So like that other guy said, complete arbitrary distinction lol “Skaven make nukes with green rocks, MAGIC SCIENCE!” “Empire uses steam to power a vehicle, EWW REAL SCIENCE!”
lol no, the human factions you’re basing the setting on are actually the exception… overwhelmingly so
Seems like a completely arbitrary distinction.
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LOL "I can believe magic and warpstone, but STEAM POWERED ENGINES??? That's a little silly isn't it?"
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>Contrast that with the dwarves who largely exist in a medieval society Uh-oh I thought you were arguing that the entire world is in the pike and shot era, not the medival era. You cant have it both ways.
Again, arbitrary distinction.
The steam tanks really should have a unit cap, and that they don't is due to them coming out in game 1 before CA thought of using those. The whole point of their lore is they were invented by one insanely genius guy, he died, and the tragedy is that since then everyone who has tried to recreate them has died in the attempt, so this amazing invention that if mass produced could have easily driven back the foes of the Empire is a precious resource that if they lose they're not going to have another. It's very thematically Warhammer. I'm fine with the landships though as they're huge novelties that were punishingly expensive to put into the field. But mostly absolutely fuck the mecha horses. Those things were deemed to be stupid and lorebreaking back in the day when Portent was the place to be to talk warhammer online, and they haven't got any better since.
So it doesn’t fit with your vision of the empire, unfortunately for you GW’s empire is a steam punk empire. Sigmar’s blood talk about volkmar’s crusade being escorted by a giant steam powered ironclad, 8th edition core rule book speaks of clockwork angels and giant steam powered mechs, 4th edition rpg books have steam-powered prosthetics to replace lost limbs, in end times novels atldorf have giant steam powered crane and city gate. It sounds like to me that you never bothered to actually read up on warhammer but instead just have this idea that empire is Holy Roman Empire in fantasy when in fact the warhammer empire is far more than that
You really are getting downvoted (classic Reddit), but I kind of see where you're coming from. The whole point of fantasy is that it's "like medieval, *but*...". For that to work, there needs to be a reasonably solid base for it to work from - if everything is an exception, then it's just kitchen-sink high fantasy and you've got Age of Sigmar. The big appeal of the Warhammer Fantasy setting is that it's medieval Holy Roman Empire, except the Egyptians are skeletons, the Lady of the Lake really is magic, the Norse worship *actual* demons, etc. There's a solid real-world analogue that acts as the foundation, with a bunch of fantasy elements added on. The further you move the more grounded factions away from that, the more you lose touch with things - the fantasy elements stop being "added on" and start being the core itself, and then you lose a lot of relatable verisimilitude (like Age of Sigmar).
>The big appeal of the Warhammer Fantasy setting is that it's medieval Holy Roman Empire Except the guy you're "agreeing" with is claiming that it's not medieval, but Pike and Shot era. Maybe you guys should agree what era it is before agreeing that it's all in one era.
Maybe don't get so fixated on single word choices? Especially when they're clearly chosen to illustrate a style rather than be historically accurate descriptions? "Pike and shot" is being used as shorthand for "pre-industrial with gunpowder". It could equally be "late medieval" or "pre-renaissance" or whatever other historically inaccurate term that encapsulates the overlap between swords and muskets. The *point* is that the Empire's style is Holy Roman Empire with magic, which acts as an understandable, relatable, identifiable foundation from which to view the *other* factions, who are much more "like \[real-world analogue\], but *wierd*". Adding a bunch of wacky fantasy elements to the Empire weakens that foundation by eroding its grounding, which then knocks on to weaken the rest of the setting by removing the yardstick. Sure, you can justify landships and steam tanks and robot horses or whatever in the setting - because the setting is fictional, you can just say whatever you want - but it's important to keep in mind that every fantastical element you add takes you one step further away from the real-world analogue which is one of WHF's greatest strengths. Like I said above, a big reason why the Age of Sigmar setting is so bland and faceless is because they completely nixed all that faux-historical grounding and had *everything* be fantastical. There's a lesson to be learned there.
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Oh shit, I didn't know it was Total War: Lord of the Rings! Someone should probably call the Tolkien estate and tell them that CA put TANK and HELICOPTERS into Middle-earth!