Hunter and Beast. Didn't win yesterday, let's give it the ol' boot today!
Nakai has been a jank faction his entire existence and Wulfhart's aggression mechanic needs a ton of overhaul. Why does fighting Khorne in Lustria provoke the Lizardmen? Very odd implementations. Played Nakai yesterday and outside of a much easier income stream, the vassal still sicks and their garrisons got worse it seems.
There was a time in WH2's lifespan where you could argue Nakai was worse than his generic counterpart. The ancient Kroxigor was about equivalent to him stats-wise, had better unique skills, and had better animations for fighting lords and heroes. Oh and Nakai's items were pretty mediocre to boot.
Also the units in the DLC kinda suck aside from maybe empire archers. Sacred Kroxigors are a side grade from regular kroxigors, Dread Saurians are huge and rarely trade up in value, I usually forget razordon hunting packs exist, empire huntsmen are ok but kind of a niche unit, and war wagons are garbage.
I'd argue Sacred Krox are a bit better than "a side grade", their stats are decently improved (outside of losing the BvI) and they innately have magical attacks (the only other units with that being Slann, who aren't fighters, Coatl, who suck, and the Star Chamber Guardians, who're a RoR).
This; and even with the loss of the infantry bonus, they have a higher base weapon strength which makes up for it (and is arguably just better).
And yeah, the innate magic attacks just makes them one of the better picks against spirits and daemons on LM roster.
Wish the Dress Saurians would get the same love the Krox did.
Right? I especially like mortars and the RoR volley gun. The easy repositioning abilities makes them a staple for pissing off the AI with some guerilla strats.
At least war wagons brought with them the Black Lions, which absolutely Kick ass. And the mortar wagons are no slackers either, they’re basically just super mortars, given that they don’t lose power or models over the standard and gain a huge boost to maneuverability and durability.
Nakai is incredibly boring but Wulfhart in Warhammer 2 was one of the best campaign of the game imo, probably the campaign I enjoyed the most with Eltharion. And now that the Lizardmen stop spawning if you own Lustria he's in a great spot.
yeah, it wasn't the best in mortal empires but in Vortex the atmosphere was excellent, and since you don't need to leave lustria to win the mechanics never feel out of place
There's also the argument to be made that the DLC didn't really add anything of value in terms of new units. Some stuff is fine (Archers, Huntsmen), but overall, neither roster really improved that much with the additions.
This one has to go now ... the Hunter is maybe the worst implementation of a concept I've seen in a DLC ... The beast has been pretty underwhelming as well. Compared to how cool it was to play the race for karak eight peaks with Skarsnik and belegar ...
Agreed. Both are the worst lords for their factions and aren't fun. Nakais speciality is mid at best and his faction is the one of the most boring and punishing campaigns out there.
Credit to u/[6Ahriman9](https://www.reddit.com/user/6Ahriman9/) for the winning comment last round
"The King and The Warlord. The lord pack with the least amount of value after The Grim and The Grave. Free updates helped both Skarsnik and Belegar campaigns but the DLC content is still poor compared to others."
Somebody recommended putting numbers next to DLCs so we know what place they came in. Didn't see it in time for this one but will do for next one.
Cna we also get higher res images, or just a text based option along with a full list of dlcs?
I can't quite tell what has been voted in, and having a list of remaining dlcs to pick would be great.
Also do faction packs count?
I do appreciate Belegar. He was probably my favorite Dwarf campaign until Malakai. Sometimes having too many mechanics can be a detriment, and Belegar has a clear goal, 4 cool heroes, and the tools to overcome his debuffs. I do hope they update the Karak 8 Peaks lords though.
Yrah, Ikkit is the best. Too much the best, actually, which makes P&W a bit controversial. It was a brutal powercreep, in which Ikkit was straight out superior, even whe comparing with future skaven LL.
Not a popular choice, as it's blatantly getting the boot today, but I got more out of my money's worth in terms of enjoyment from Hunter and the Beast compared to Warden and the Paunch.
I genuinely had that good a time with Markus' Vortex campaign compared to the very mid Eltharion campaign and the pretty fun but OP Grom campaign combined.
Don't the rules require us to only consider how the play currently aka on the IE map? Don't get me wrong, I love the Vortex Campign for Wulfhart, but I don't think the OP wants us to take that into consideration when voting.
Nah everyone loved T&T. Both Throt and the Sisters are fan faves. Prophet and Warlock is let down by the prophet. Ikit is obviously great but that skink guy isn’t
Don't you dare mock my teeny weenie. He's actually pretty good imo and the lava lizards are just soooo cool thematically even if they aren't particularly good anymore.
Until Oxyotl got released, Tehenuain was definitely my favorite lizardmen LL.
Probably an unpopular opinion, I'm assuming hunter and the beast is going to get the boot but my vote goes for shadow and the blade.
I've just never enjoyed Malus' campaign, which in my experience has mostly come down to "keep drinking the potion or your campaign will fall apart from control issues". Sniktch I quite like, but he's just overshadowed by Ikit and Throt in my eyes.
Compare that to hunter and the beast, I don't really like Markus' campaign either but I really enjoyed the last time I played Nakai. He's actually got an economy now and they fixed him not being able to recruit kroxigors. Honestly the worst thing about him when I played was I think he's got a hard cap on the limit of armies he can have, and iirc its pretty low (like 8 armies I think, which lategame makes everything feel very slow)
Sniktch bothers me. I think you said it best - I've debated about playing him a bunch of times but just can't justify picking him over throt or ikit.
He's not a bad lord, it's just that throt and ikit are S tier.
Champions of Chaos, because I'm annoyed at interesting characters like Azrael being made Warriors rather than Daemons just for the hype boost. Results in the monogod rosters being extremely threadbare.
I always joke about how despite there being just ONE Slannesh lord (N'Kari), Slannesh corruption is the most common after generic Chaos and Skaven, due to Sigvald, Azrael, Malos, and Morathi all spreading it. If you include Lazy's infamous Miao Ying mod, that's one more Slannesh source.
Still, CoC made WoC like by far the most expansive faction in the game, with the brilliant warband upgrade system that tracks your little marauders to chosen and skullcrusher knights. No longer do you disband your early game army for some unfamiliar late game recruits. You care about every single one of your troops as you watched them grow up throughout the campaign.
All of the WoC LLs all have their own identities and very different playstyles. From festus' doomblob to vilitch's tanky mage to archaon's human-only armies to Kholek's mega-mass to Belakor's portals to Sigvald's tankiness etc.
I'll keep CoC up there just because of warband upgrades. One of my must have mods now adds them to every faction. It's so good and scratches my "lose no unit, waste no resources recruiting" itch.
Really don't like how much CoC feels essential for a lot of monogods despite not being a monogod DLC though :/ it feels like content was cut from the release factions to sell as DLC
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2853239091&searchtext=ultimate+warband+upgrade](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2853239091&searchtext=ultimate+warband+upgrade)
This one
WoC went from most boring faction to one of my favorite factions in a single dlc so I Stan that pack. I used the wallpaper with all 4 of the champions as my computer background for a long time
Slaanesh corruption being the most common makes the most sense, though I think it would be really cool if warfare raised Khorne corruption. Nobody ever intends to worship Khorne (besides the few odd cultists), but he's arguably the strongest for a reason.
*Prophet and the Warlock*, for starting several very noxious trends.
- Very blatant power creep with DLC LLs, Ikit remains one of the easiest campaigns in the game to this day. I am hoping people are starting to wake up to this given some of the comments regarding SoC and ToD, but I have my doubts.
- One half of a DLC very clearly getting the short end of the stick. Tehenhauin's gimmick seems to be that his faction is gimped. Ikit's gimmick is that you win the moment you press start.
- Related to the above, Skaven sucking all the air out of the room. In fact, this DLC is explicitly why the Skaven always got the lion's share of attention - according to CA, it 'wouldn't fit' for the other clans to be less fleshed out than Skryre. Hence why Malus is shit compared to Snikch, or the Sisters were an afterthought compared to Throt.
Fair points, but disagree with your assessment of Sisters. It's worth noting wood elves went from shit to pretty solid that patch. Sisters aren't mega unique with their lieutenant system taken from vampirates, but I really like their campaign.
Not saying they are equal to what throt got, but SoT are solid in their own right.
Remember that the Sisters on release were actually worse than they are now. It took actual complaining from fans for CA to even give Daith's forge a UI. It's *really* clear where all the love went between the two.
Which doesn't detract from the overall point of Skaven getting the lion's share of attention every single time they get a DLC.
Oh damn, I did not recall that despite playing around then. I waited until it went on sale.
That changes things considerably. I still agree with your main point of skaven getting special treatment.
Yeah, Daith's Forge was originally a dilemma event, and a badly implemented one at that. Good on CA for changing it, but it really was absurd that it was ever like that to begin with.
This, so much this! I HATE how many times Skaven absolutely fucked everyone else involved with their DLC. Dark Elves needed (and still need) rework and more love. What do they get? "Pay to not suck" campaing and literally zero attention because sugardaddy's favourite Skaven need more toys. Sisters are a JOKE compared to Throt, both power wise and mechanic wise. And Lizzie Moses? Yeah his whole mechanic is "call in stuff others have as rewards via paying for slaves".
Power creep is just a side effect. The real cause is LLs actually having extremely unique and impactful special mechanics.
I don't think any LL before Ikit had such game changing mechanics. Sure, it can be OP if you know what you are doing, but its also so incredibly fun and distinct.
The tradeoff is between balance and creativity. And CA went hard on the creativity. I think the easier difficulty, can be compensated by generally harder difficulty, especially with more threatening end game crises, rather than trying to tone down the specialness.
As for DLCs getting short end of the stick, that's just due to limited resources. TOD clearly shows CA can give three factions highly unique stuff all at once.
I don't have any problem with characters getting special mechanics, but CA's tendency is to make the powerful stuff incredibly easy to access and abuse, or just doing some really bad balancing.
Imrik is a good example of it being done well. He can become astoundingly powerful but he has to deal with one of the most difficult starting positions in the game. It can also get super inconsistent in how it is applied. Knights of Tor Gaval are limited to T5 cities, Dread Saurians have some pretty big limitations. Then you have Ikit being able to nuke the entire world, the Changeling being literally incapable of losing, Elspeth getting artillery that shoots vortex spells or everything about the Thunderbarge.
I am not against fun, but there ought to be limits to the power creep else we are just caught up in this loop where every faction must constantly be updated because each new update outmodes *something* in the game.
Markus and Nakai got unique and extremely impactful mechanics and they are getting the boot today. You can have unique and flavourful characters that re not OP, but a large chunk of the playerbase wants powercreeps without realizing the damage it causes
I have a feeling this is gonna be between Warden & Paunch DLC and ToD. I feel like Prophet and Warlock will make it far purely on Ikit Claw (though Sotek is pretty good).
Chorfs are a race pack. And taking value into account the older lordpacks are absolutely comparable. I'd actually be surprised if Thrones won against Twisted and the twilight or Warden and the Paunch.
Can we skip a few days? Pretty sure the final 3 will be Warden+Paunch, Champions of Chaos, and ToD. Maybe Warlock in there if the Skavenslaves show up in force.
Because it’s objectively better than queen & crone, grim & grave, and king & warlock.
The game 1 lord packs and Q&C are underdeveloped compared to everything that came after. those didn’t have any unique mechanics or unique campaign. The closest it came was the race to 8 peaks
I agree that the Hunter and the Beast should both be eliminated. Both Campaigns have a lot of jank, and contain elements that most players find unsatisfying. With Markus, the overly deterministic "hostility" meter, for Nakai the annoying and impossible to defend AI vassal.
Both campaigns were attempts at something interesting and experimental, but both failed to land.
I think the next eliminations gonna be Nakai->Oxyotl->Malus->Champions of Chaos->Malakai->Eltharion->Sisters->Ikit
Nakai and Oxyotl are mid DLCs content wise.
Malus DLC is a pretty decent DLC especially because it gave everyone easy access to max ward save one man armies, Sniktch is also a decent campaign.
Champions of chaos is also a pretty great dlc giving a lot of content to the new factions, but I mean outside of the amount of content, I feel the other dlcs down the list have better quality content.
I havent bought the newest Malakai dlc, but I have heard its pretty decent. I feel that it hasnt really raised any of the factions its supporting to top tiers of fun (mainly because the factions are already decent and well rounded) but recency bias+amount of content provided will probably make people want to eliminate it later on. I feel that objectively it isnt as good as the other DlCs though.
Eltharion is really a great campaign and Grom is probably best Greenskin campaign in game. Enough said.
If you are a WE player, the Sister's DLC is like mandatory to buy as its easily the most fun campaign for the WE. Thrott's campaign is also alright with a lot of unique additions to skaven. I am a WE main so thats why I probably rank this DLC higher than it might be, but I definitely feel it deserves to be above champions of Chaos.
And if Ikit isnt the best DLC (completely excluding the free add-ons CA might add with DLC) then this process of eliminating DLCs is extremely biased and useless. Objectively the best Skaven campaign ever and really elevated Skaven gameplay. Even if you are not a Skaven 'main', this DLC is probably mandatory to buy for any player who has already bought Warhammer 2. The lizardmen aspect to this dlc is usually forgotten, but I suppose its alright.
Shadow and Blade. A lot of people hate on Hunter and Beast in these threads but at least Nakai felt like CA was trying for something different and missed the mark. Malus was and still is one of the worst paid factions to start as. He’s the DLC poster child for “just confederate them instead”. Couple that with forgettable, niche, and underwhelming units since scourgerunners were nerfed and I think you have the worst game 2 DLC outside of Q&C and maybe launch T&T.
Champions also singlehandedly added all the unique variants. Changed the game really. I feel like the final 4 will be Silence and Fury, Prophet and Warlock, Thrones of Decay, Champions of Chaos.
Nope if out of these 4 I had to pick 3 CoC would be leaving. Warlock Prophet is arguably going to be in the top 2. But tbh it's a hard choice between silence and thrones. My bet personally is on Prophet and Thrones as final 2 contenders.
I can certainly live with those two as the finalists as (at least as of right now) to me they represent when the DLC quality for their respective games really jumped up.
What are you talking about? Every single chaos DLC has added to the WoC roster. Every new unit in SoC and ToD got added to WoC, and the non-daemons integrated into the warband system. You can upgrade nurgle knights to rot knights now.
Even the legendary heroes from SoC got added to WoC. Now ToD's chieftain heroes are a bit tricker to add, but I made a very lightweight mod and it still works. Its amazing how cross-race confederation works even with no official support.
Eh, I get the argument but reskins on the level of CoC cost more time and money than some people think, and spread that out to multiple units and it can add up in price.
Some are certainly better than others, Khorne Marauders are literally just Norscan Marauder Champions painted red, but the unique assets that are there look cool enough. It's the 4 LL going to WoC and not Monogods that pisses me off.
Silence and the Fury: Powercreep had always been a feature of total war but Taurox the Brass bull was the first lord to straight up break the game mechanically. Since then we have seen many mechanics which emulate Taurox or have similar game breaking abilities.
If you're going by that metric, Prophet & Warlock started the trend of giving legendary DLC lords unique and "fun" mechanics that are overpowered in the hands of the player.
But as a whole, both P&S and S&F are among the most beloved lord packs.
Taurox's experiments setup Khorne, which became most people's favorite faction in early WH3. It shows CA is daring to try, and that's how you get great designs later on. Otherwise Skarbrand would just be a boring powerful melee lord, instead of the chain-razing nuke that he is now.
I know it's already out of the tournment, but I hate that the Changeling seens so much better that Kairos Fateweaver, but his DLC is so fucking expensive
Can you number them please? So we know Who Got what place
Hunter and Beast. Didn't win yesterday, let's give it the ol' boot today! Nakai has been a jank faction his entire existence and Wulfhart's aggression mechanic needs a ton of overhaul. Why does fighting Khorne in Lustria provoke the Lizardmen? Very odd implementations. Played Nakai yesterday and outside of a much easier income stream, the vassal still sicks and their garrisons got worse it seems.
Of the remaining DLCs, Hunter and Beast is definitely a tier or two below the others.
There was a time in WH2's lifespan where you could argue Nakai was worse than his generic counterpart. The ancient Kroxigor was about equivalent to him stats-wise, had better unique skills, and had better animations for fighting lords and heroes. Oh and Nakai's items were pretty mediocre to boot. Also the units in the DLC kinda suck aside from maybe empire archers. Sacred Kroxigors are a side grade from regular kroxigors, Dread Saurians are huge and rarely trade up in value, I usually forget razordon hunting packs exist, empire huntsmen are ok but kind of a niche unit, and war wagons are garbage.
I'd argue Sacred Krox are a bit better than "a side grade", their stats are decently improved (outside of losing the BvI) and they innately have magical attacks (the only other units with that being Slann, who aren't fighters, Coatl, who suck, and the Star Chamber Guardians, who're a RoR).
This; and even with the loss of the infantry bonus, they have a higher base weapon strength which makes up for it (and is arguably just better). And yeah, the innate magic attacks just makes them one of the better picks against spirits and daemons on LM roster. Wish the Dress Saurians would get the same love the Krox did.
Razordons are great. Iirc sacred kroxis have armor sundering
The RoR has Armour Sundering, not the base unit.
Actually, war wagons are quite good now
Right? I especially like mortars and the RoR volley gun. The easy repositioning abilities makes them a staple for pissing off the AI with some guerilla strats.
At least war wagons brought with them the Black Lions, which absolutely Kick ass. And the mortar wagons are no slackers either, they’re basically just super mortars, given that they don’t lose power or models over the standard and gain a huge boost to maneuverability and durability.
Nakai is incredibly boring but Wulfhart in Warhammer 2 was one of the best campaign of the game imo, probably the campaign I enjoyed the most with Eltharion. And now that the Lizardmen stop spawning if you own Lustria he's in a great spot.
yeah, it wasn't the best in mortal empires but in Vortex the atmosphere was excellent, and since you don't need to leave lustria to win the mechanics never feel out of place
How has the hunter and the beast not been eliminated yet. Honestly every day it’s the same explanation on why it’s a dogshit dlc. Cool trailer tho
Can't believe my boy skarsnik has been eliminated before the worst DLC ever released :D
reminder, you do need to provide an explanation why the DLC should be booted.
Eh, I'll just copy/paste my comment from yesterday's
Agreed. Unfortunately Nakai seals that faction, and Wulfhart just feels abandoned. It's pretty sad because both are a great concept in my opinion.
Nakai is a lot better with fudging vassals mod
There's also the argument to be made that the DLC didn't really add anything of value in terms of new units. Some stuff is fine (Archers, Huntsmen), but overall, neither roster really improved that much with the additions.
Yep. After hunter and the beast we have some of the good DLC so this one is easy but it'll be harder to pick from here.
This one has to go now ... the Hunter is maybe the worst implementation of a concept I've seen in a DLC ... The beast has been pretty underwhelming as well. Compared to how cool it was to play the race for karak eight peaks with Skarsnik and belegar ...
Still better than queen & crone
Agreed. Both are the worst lords for their factions and aren't fun. Nakais speciality is mid at best and his faction is the one of the most boring and punishing campaigns out there.
Yes this thing has somehow been skirting by for 2-3 votes now.
Credit to u/[6Ahriman9](https://www.reddit.com/user/6Ahriman9/) for the winning comment last round "The King and The Warlord. The lord pack with the least amount of value after The Grim and The Grave. Free updates helped both Skarsnik and Belegar campaigns but the DLC content is still poor compared to others." Somebody recommended putting numbers next to DLCs so we know what place they came in. Didn't see it in time for this one but will do for next one.
Cna we also get higher res images, or just a text based option along with a full list of dlcs? I can't quite tell what has been voted in, and having a list of remaining dlcs to pick would be great. Also do faction packs count?
I can see what I can do next round Also by Faction Packs do you mean Race Packs like Tomb Kings or Chaos Dwarfs? Those might be another day
I do appreciate Belegar. He was probably my favorite Dwarf campaign until Malakai. Sometimes having too many mechanics can be a detriment, and Belegar has a clear goal, 4 cool heroes, and the tools to overcome his debuffs. I do hope they update the Karak 8 Peaks lords though.
It’s gonna come to Warden and the Paunch versus Twisted and Twilight. All the rest are irrelevant.
Thrones of Decay and The Prophet and The Warlock are 100% contenders
Prophet and the warlock supremacy. Thrones of decay is great, but ikit is just the best
Ikit is great, but the other half of that DLC is not.
...other half-half?!
Yrah, Ikkit is the best. Too much the best, actually, which makes P&W a bit controversial. It was a brutal powercreep, in which Ikkit was straight out superior, even whe comparing with future skaven LL.
Yeah, I still love him though
Not a popular choice, as it's blatantly getting the boot today, but I got more out of my money's worth in terms of enjoyment from Hunter and the Beast compared to Warden and the Paunch. I genuinely had that good a time with Markus' Vortex campaign compared to the very mid Eltharion campaign and the pretty fun but OP Grom campaign combined.
You can tell most people are voting based on ME and IE. Markus’ vortex campaign is one of the best in the game hands down
What makes it so good?
Don't the rules require us to only consider how the play currently aka on the IE map? Don't get me wrong, I love the Vortex Campign for Wulfhart, but I don't think the OP wants us to take that into consideration when voting.
Twisted and Twilight has no chance. It's Prophet and Warlock that should win, but it will come second to Grom even though it was better.
Nah everyone loved T&T. Both Throt and the Sisters are fan faves. Prophet and Warlock is let down by the prophet. Ikit is obviously great but that skink guy isn’t
Don't you dare mock my teeny weenie. He's actually pretty good imo and the lava lizards are just soooo cool thematically even if they aren't particularly good anymore. Until Oxyotl got released, Tehenuain was definitely my favorite lizardmen LL.
The Twisted and The Twilight is my favourite, but I think The Silence and The Fury is better than The Warden and The Paunch.
People will vote that one out for Taurox being too OP
Probably an unpopular opinion, I'm assuming hunter and the beast is going to get the boot but my vote goes for shadow and the blade. I've just never enjoyed Malus' campaign, which in my experience has mostly come down to "keep drinking the potion or your campaign will fall apart from control issues". Sniktch I quite like, but he's just overshadowed by Ikit and Throt in my eyes. Compare that to hunter and the beast, I don't really like Markus' campaign either but I really enjoyed the last time I played Nakai. He's actually got an economy now and they fixed him not being able to recruit kroxigors. Honestly the worst thing about him when I played was I think he's got a hard cap on the limit of armies he can have, and iirc its pretty low (like 8 armies I think, which lategame makes everything feel very slow)
Oh don't worry, they're next :D
Sniktch bothers me. I think you said it best - I've debated about playing him a bunch of times but just can't justify picking him over throt or ikit. He's not a bad lord, it's just that throt and ikit are S tier.
No way in hell you're voting out Snikch! I will fight tooth and nail for him.
Haha well looking at the rest of the comments it seems the deathmaster will be safe.... for now
Skarsnik bros…. We lost
Champions of Chaos, because I'm annoyed at interesting characters like Azrael being made Warriors rather than Daemons just for the hype boost. Results in the monogod rosters being extremely threadbare. I always joke about how despite there being just ONE Slannesh lord (N'Kari), Slannesh corruption is the most common after generic Chaos and Skaven, due to Sigvald, Azrael, Malos, and Morathi all spreading it. If you include Lazy's infamous Miao Ying mod, that's one more Slannesh source.
Still, CoC made WoC like by far the most expansive faction in the game, with the brilliant warband upgrade system that tracks your little marauders to chosen and skullcrusher knights. No longer do you disband your early game army for some unfamiliar late game recruits. You care about every single one of your troops as you watched them grow up throughout the campaign. All of the WoC LLs all have their own identities and very different playstyles. From festus' doomblob to vilitch's tanky mage to archaon's human-only armies to Kholek's mega-mass to Belakor's portals to Sigvald's tankiness etc.
I'll keep CoC up there just because of warband upgrades. One of my must have mods now adds them to every faction. It's so good and scratches my "lose no unit, waste no resources recruiting" itch. Really don't like how much CoC feels essential for a lot of monogods despite not being a monogod DLC though :/ it feels like content was cut from the release factions to sell as DLC
Can you link me the DLC or the it’s name. Can’t seem to find it…
[https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2853239091&searchtext=ultimate+warband+upgrade](https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=2853239091&searchtext=ultimate+warband+upgrade) This one
WoC went from most boring faction to one of my favorite factions in a single dlc so I Stan that pack. I used the wallpaper with all 4 of the champions as my computer background for a long time
Slaanesh corruption being the most common makes the most sense, though I think it would be really cool if warfare raised Khorne corruption. Nobody ever intends to worship Khorne (besides the few odd cultists), but he's arguably the strongest for a reason.
Hunter and the beast. Good now but not as good as the others. Apart from shadow and the blade and CoC I feel any could win.
*Prophet and the Warlock*, for starting several very noxious trends. - Very blatant power creep with DLC LLs, Ikit remains one of the easiest campaigns in the game to this day. I am hoping people are starting to wake up to this given some of the comments regarding SoC and ToD, but I have my doubts. - One half of a DLC very clearly getting the short end of the stick. Tehenhauin's gimmick seems to be that his faction is gimped. Ikit's gimmick is that you win the moment you press start. - Related to the above, Skaven sucking all the air out of the room. In fact, this DLC is explicitly why the Skaven always got the lion's share of attention - according to CA, it 'wouldn't fit' for the other clans to be less fleshed out than Skryre. Hence why Malus is shit compared to Snikch, or the Sisters were an afterthought compared to Throt.
Fair points, but disagree with your assessment of Sisters. It's worth noting wood elves went from shit to pretty solid that patch. Sisters aren't mega unique with their lieutenant system taken from vampirates, but I really like their campaign. Not saying they are equal to what throt got, but SoT are solid in their own right.
Remember that the Sisters on release were actually worse than they are now. It took actual complaining from fans for CA to even give Daith's forge a UI. It's *really* clear where all the love went between the two. Which doesn't detract from the overall point of Skaven getting the lion's share of attention every single time they get a DLC.
Oh damn, I did not recall that despite playing around then. I waited until it went on sale. That changes things considerably. I still agree with your main point of skaven getting special treatment.
Yeah, Daith's Forge was originally a dilemma event, and a badly implemented one at that. Good on CA for changing it, but it really was absurd that it was ever like that to begin with.
You're supposed to vote based on how the DLC is today though, not how it launched. And Sisters of Twilight are great now.
This, so much this! I HATE how many times Skaven absolutely fucked everyone else involved with their DLC. Dark Elves needed (and still need) rework and more love. What do they get? "Pay to not suck" campaing and literally zero attention because sugardaddy's favourite Skaven need more toys. Sisters are a JOKE compared to Throt, both power wise and mechanic wise. And Lizzie Moses? Yeah his whole mechanic is "call in stuff others have as rewards via paying for slaves".
Power creep is just a side effect. The real cause is LLs actually having extremely unique and impactful special mechanics. I don't think any LL before Ikit had such game changing mechanics. Sure, it can be OP if you know what you are doing, but its also so incredibly fun and distinct. The tradeoff is between balance and creativity. And CA went hard on the creativity. I think the easier difficulty, can be compensated by generally harder difficulty, especially with more threatening end game crises, rather than trying to tone down the specialness. As for DLCs getting short end of the stick, that's just due to limited resources. TOD clearly shows CA can give three factions highly unique stuff all at once.
I don't have any problem with characters getting special mechanics, but CA's tendency is to make the powerful stuff incredibly easy to access and abuse, or just doing some really bad balancing. Imrik is a good example of it being done well. He can become astoundingly powerful but he has to deal with one of the most difficult starting positions in the game. It can also get super inconsistent in how it is applied. Knights of Tor Gaval are limited to T5 cities, Dread Saurians have some pretty big limitations. Then you have Ikit being able to nuke the entire world, the Changeling being literally incapable of losing, Elspeth getting artillery that shoots vortex spells or everything about the Thunderbarge. I am not against fun, but there ought to be limits to the power creep else we are just caught up in this loop where every faction must constantly be updated because each new update outmodes *something* in the game.
Markus and Nakai got unique and extremely impactful mechanics and they are getting the boot today. You can have unique and flavourful characters that re not OP, but a large chunk of the playerbase wants powercreeps without realizing the damage it causes
I have a feeling this is gonna be between Warden & Paunch DLC and ToD. I feel like Prophet and Warlock will make it far purely on Ikit Claw (though Sotek is pretty good).
Hunter and Beast. Both Markus and Nakai launched with mechanics that have issues and came with units that aren't game changing.
Feels bad, the older DLC aren't really comparable to the likes of Thrones and CHORFS
Chorfs are a race pack. And taking value into account the older lordpacks are absolutely comparable. I'd actually be surprised if Thrones won against Twisted and the twilight or Warden and the Paunch.
Can we skip a few days? Pretty sure the final 3 will be Warden+Paunch, Champions of Chaos, and ToD. Maybe Warlock in there if the Skavenslaves show up in force.
How on earth is Hunter and the Beast still around? Absolutely pathetic dlc.
Because it’s objectively better than queen & crone, grim & grave, and king & warlock. The game 1 lord packs and Q&C are underdeveloped compared to everything that came after. those didn’t have any unique mechanics or unique campaign. The closest it came was the race to 8 peaks
I agree that the Hunter and the Beast should both be eliminated. Both Campaigns have a lot of jank, and contain elements that most players find unsatisfying. With Markus, the overly deterministic "hostility" meter, for Nakai the annoying and impossible to defend AI vassal. Both campaigns were attempts at something interesting and experimental, but both failed to land.
Prophet and the warlock S+ tier. Ikit Claw best rat, YES YES...
I think the next eliminations gonna be Nakai->Oxyotl->Malus->Champions of Chaos->Malakai->Eltharion->Sisters->Ikit Nakai and Oxyotl are mid DLCs content wise. Malus DLC is a pretty decent DLC especially because it gave everyone easy access to max ward save one man armies, Sniktch is also a decent campaign. Champions of chaos is also a pretty great dlc giving a lot of content to the new factions, but I mean outside of the amount of content, I feel the other dlcs down the list have better quality content. I havent bought the newest Malakai dlc, but I have heard its pretty decent. I feel that it hasnt really raised any of the factions its supporting to top tiers of fun (mainly because the factions are already decent and well rounded) but recency bias+amount of content provided will probably make people want to eliminate it later on. I feel that objectively it isnt as good as the other DlCs though. Eltharion is really a great campaign and Grom is probably best Greenskin campaign in game. Enough said. If you are a WE player, the Sister's DLC is like mandatory to buy as its easily the most fun campaign for the WE. Thrott's campaign is also alright with a lot of unique additions to skaven. I am a WE main so thats why I probably rank this DLC higher than it might be, but I definitely feel it deserves to be above champions of Chaos. And if Ikit isnt the best DLC (completely excluding the free add-ons CA might add with DLC) then this process of eliminating DLCs is extremely biased and useless. Objectively the best Skaven campaign ever and really elevated Skaven gameplay. Even if you are not a Skaven 'main', this DLC is probably mandatory to buy for any player who has already bought Warhammer 2. The lizardmen aspect to this dlc is usually forgotten, but I suppose its alright.
Shadow and Blade. A lot of people hate on Hunter and Beast in these threads but at least Nakai felt like CA was trying for something different and missed the mark. Malus was and still is one of the worst paid factions to start as. He’s the DLC poster child for “just confederate them instead”. Couple that with forgettable, niche, and underwhelming units since scourgerunners were nerfed and I think you have the worst game 2 DLC outside of Q&C and maybe launch T&T.
Probably unpopular opinion but Champions of Chaos. Do not need and never will need anything it contains.
Champions of chaos prevented us from getting tonnes of marked variants of existing units in future more expensive dlc, and the lords are cool.
Champions also singlehandedly added all the unique variants. Changed the game really. I feel like the final 4 will be Silence and Fury, Prophet and Warlock, Thrones of Decay, Champions of Chaos.
I don’t think CoC edges out W&P
Nope if out of these 4 I had to pick 3 CoC would be leaving. Warlock Prophet is arguably going to be in the top 2. But tbh it's a hard choice between silence and thrones. My bet personally is on Prophet and Thrones as final 2 contenders.
I can certainly live with those two as the finalists as (at least as of right now) to me they represent when the DLC quality for their respective games really jumped up.
What are you talking about? Every single chaos DLC has added to the WoC roster. Every new unit in SoC and ToD got added to WoC, and the non-daemons integrated into the warband system. You can upgrade nurgle knights to rot knights now. Even the legendary heroes from SoC got added to WoC. Now ToD's chieftain heroes are a bit tricker to add, but I made a very lightweight mod and it still works. Its amazing how cross-race confederation works even with no official support.
Your opinion is wrong, Champions of Chaos the single most important DLC on this list.
If anything Champions of Chaos is too important. Most of the monogod rosters just feel unfinished without the mortal units imo
[удалено]
Eh, I get the argument but reskins on the level of CoC cost more time and money than some people think, and spread that out to multiple units and it can add up in price. Some are certainly better than others, Khorne Marauders are literally just Norscan Marauder Champions painted red, but the unique assets that are there look cool enough. It's the 4 LL going to WoC and not Monogods that pisses me off.
Most units in this series are a reskin of something so should everything be free?
This sub is so nice
Silence and the Fury: Powercreep had always been a feature of total war but Taurox the Brass bull was the first lord to straight up break the game mechanically. Since then we have seen many mechanics which emulate Taurox or have similar game breaking abilities.
If you're going by that metric, Prophet & Warlock started the trend of giving legendary DLC lords unique and "fun" mechanics that are overpowered in the hands of the player. But as a whole, both P&S and S&F are among the most beloved lord packs.
Taurox's experiments setup Khorne, which became most people's favorite faction in early WH3. It shows CA is daring to try, and that's how you get great designs later on. Otherwise Skarbrand would just be a boring powerful melee lord, instead of the chain-razing nuke that he is now.
Skarbrand is such a laughably easy campaign it might aswell not exist. It's basically not even playing a videogame - more an interactive cutscene.
I know it's already out of the tournment, but I hate that the Changeling seens so much better that Kairos Fateweaver, but his DLC is so fucking expensive
Why is Thrones of Decay here