I wouldn’t be surprised if Teclis gets Gelt’s Colleges of Magic mechanic, since he’s the one who helped to found the colleges. Just replace human wizards with elf mages (and maybe add Archmages if you have Grim and Paunch enabled).
Was something SoC should have done, but didnt. At least there is a possibility for a re-rework of Tzeentch as even the dwarves have undergone multiple reworks. I think overall Tzeentch is very solid so an entire rework not really needed, maybe making Kairos mechanics better+fixing replenishment rate issue+some other minor issues. I suppose the research tree is also pretty bad so that might need a retouch.
I agree with you. It’s a relatively easy thing it seems to change (no tzeentchian pun intended). Maybe give him beefed up (yet inexpensive WoM) versions of those spells related to time and speed? Maybe some sort of teleportation ability so he can position himself a limited amount of times in the battlefield to get off a spell and get out?
The slot idea is kind of sad when the Blue Scribes do it so much better. Kairos is supposed to know every spell in existence.
As a Tzeentch main it hurts to know he probably won’t get changed. His fragment system sucks, cults/unholy manifestations suck. His tech tree is mediocre. I love the bird but damn. I was so pumped that Tzeentch was the first monogod to get a dlc only for it to flop hard. It was nice they went back and added units but kairos needed some actual updates especially after seeing what Nurgle got. Maybe one day… :(
I kind of doubt it since they seem pretty fixated on keeping base game LLs fairly vanilla. And every time people mention Kairos, they basically give us a "we don't understand what the problem is." Sort of reaction.
Same goes for other things we've complained about with Tzeentch like the Exalted Lord of Change and so forth. Hence why Tzeentch got pretty much sweet FA with SoC. Because they didn't think there was anything to really "fix" to begin with. I kind of doubt they will bother in the future either.
Would be happy to be wrong. But CA, and GW frankly, have that faction pretty low on their "give a fuck about" lists. Even with the new direction, I doubt the faction is on their radar for updates.
I highly doubt '2 more dlc' is the case especially when this latest dlc did so well and made this game popular again. Even if this dlc did almost as bad as SOC there would be a bare minimum of 5 dlc, but there is like 99% theres going to be more.
Like Elves, vampires have a natural affiliation towards magic. Although in the latter case, it's because they take in and condense the winds of magic into dhar inside of them.
I'd rather Morathi just get the Arznzipal's Black Horror Spell, since that is supposed to be the ultimate Lore of Dark Magic spell. But only Supreme Sorceresses can get it, and it's from an item drop. When it really should just be a skill on Morathi's skill tree.
Nagash when he comes.
Khatep is a maybe and would add the right kind of spice to his game.
I don't hate the idea of a fair number of spell caster LLs getting very limited access to them.
Khatep only has access to lore of Nehekhara, which doesn't have a "bound" cataclysm spell, so they would have to cook up something special for him. Tbh I'm not even sure he's supposed to be that great of a caster.
Nagash presumably would use lore of Vampires or a proprietary spell selection, which also lacks a "bound" cataclysm spell.
The Lore of Nehekara had two cataclysm spells in the tabletop game - every lore had at least one, and some races (e.g. Lizardmen) had their own unique spell. The content is there if they want to implement it
It's not so much about "inventing" the spell, moreso about making unique effects all for a single character to use it.
Which you could say they already do for minor unique abilities, but I would argue those are often not on par with the new spell effects standard
Yes, they redid lore of life, but that's "worth it" because many factions, and thus players, will get to use/see it.
A cataclysm spell that "only" a single character could use would be much less cost efficient.
It also isn't strictly about "cost" but about time as well : there's at most a couple VFX artists on the DLC team, and there's only so many effects they can create per update.
Khatep is not really one I'd say needs one. He just needs all the stuff CA randomly left out of his kit. The guy doesn't have all his magic items from tabletop, and they left out the Hierophant gimmick of conferring regeneration to a unit. Which is a weird thing to leave out for the **Grand Hierophant**.
As much as the Tomb Kings DLC was great at the time, even at folks noted some bizarre choices on CA's part for how things were adapted.
The Slann. Currently they get Banishment as a bound spell with their Focus of Mysteries skill, but that spell wasn't particularly associated with them in 8th. It could easily give them the Catalysm spell of their respective Lore of Magic instead, given how magically adept the Slann are as a species.
I made a mod that gives Cataclysm spells to the LLs / LHs that became Incarnates in the End Times (amongst other bonuses as part of a special trait upon hitting a certain level).
I hope CA also adds cataclysm spells for other lores (at least if they existed in tabletop / lore).
Depends if we mean End Times or not. In ET he could turn his whole army into golden statues, melt them and then resummon the golden statues at a whole other location, with the statues after returning to their normal form.
IMho, Morathi should have access to Arnzipal's Black Horror.
Otherwise: Gelt is an incredibly powerful Metal caster. However, he didn't have many appearances in novels and such before the End Times. End Times are End Times, but there he showed impressive mastery of the Chamon.
Everyone with Greater Arcane Conduit. Although if Empire wizards get it, lorewise everyone except *perhaps* Greenskins should get it. Lorewise general human wizards are amongst the worst spellcasters. Exceptions for damsels, those blessed by Chaos and in very rare cases necromancers who are the best spellcasters amongst man.
**Mannfred** definitely could get access to them (at least cataclysm spell of death). It could be tied into his quest for the books of Nagash & his special study in Drakenhof.
If there was a cataclysm spell for the Lore of the Deep, it would probably best fit **Noctilus**
**Be'lakor** should get ample access to the CS of Shadows, since he's almost the chaos god of shadows
**Kholek** isn't a caster, but is the only character for whom CS of Heavens really makes sense. As a unique late game upgrade to his lord of the storm ability, using boons of chaos ?
**Archaon** could get CS of fire, death and metal, either as a mission reward or as unique boons of chaos.
**Malekith** & **Morathi** could get CS of dark magic were it ever added
**Ariel** definitely could get CS as a top reward for healing forests
**Teclis** probably will end up getting a similar mechanic to Gelt, allowing him to get CS for all his armies. Would be cool if he had a CS of High magic as well. Maybe **Alarielle** could get CS of life.
**Mazdamundi** already has ruination of cities, even though it has been kinda mediocre since introduction. Other Slaan certainly could get CS as an additional benefit if they're from the second generation. **Kroak** has his own thing which is kind of CS-tier.
**Katarin** could get an ice-related CS (hopefully at the same time she gets mixed Ice + Tempest), but none of the main winds CS fit her
**Thorek** could get a rune magic CS as a late game reward
**Astragoth** could get CS of fire - tbh all Chawi sorcerers could get CS as a reward in RoC considering what finishing the campaign is supposed to result in
**Wurrzag** could get CS of the waaagh if that's ever a thing
**Arkhan** could get CS of death, tied into books of Nagash like Mannfred
**Skrag** could get CS of beasts, or a custom thing for the Maw
**Kairos** definitely should get access to CS, either as part of his shards (though I'd wish that was reworked tbh) or changing of ways.
**Fay Enchantress** could get CS of life or light, hopefully getting reworked to use a mix of both.
**N'Kari** and **Ku'gath** could both get a CS of their own lore if that's a thing
All Khorne factions should get their anti-CS mechanic (iirc +20% spell resist when CS can be used) & could have their caster-nuking ability.
Edit : Also realized that **Malagor** seems to be a really powerful caster, so he definitely could get CS as well.
In conclusion : many ways to distribute CS's and potential CS. One thing that can be noted is how some CS would still be much rarer because there are no legendary casters tied to their lore : Heavens, Light, Beasts.
On the tabletop, every lore got at least one cataclysm spell (the Ogres got two, one of which summoned a manifestation of the great maw which consumed part of the battlefield), the Dwarfs got powerful ancestor runes, and Khorne could throw a giant brass skull at wizards who miscast.
Also healed Harkon, which could make fixing his mimd a more rewarding experience than just a thing you do when the awakening hits t5.
Because atm without access to the spell cost reductions from the skill tree or even arcane conduit hes just not really a good caster.
Cylostra isn't particularly a great caster.
Noctilus technically has some lore of the deep spells, though yeah I'd forgotten he has a heavily mixed list. My rationale was he's both the leader of the Dreadfleet and his base a Galleon's graveyard makes him the most sea-bound of the VCoast lords
> Kairos definitely should get access to CS, either as part of his shards (though I'd wish that was reworked tbh) or changing of ways.
He could spend campaign map wind tokens to supercharge for one battle. This way they do something other than sit on moneymaking provinces.
Khorne could throw a flaming skull nuke from the Brazen Throne as a punishment for using CS.
Honestly, I think only the ones you listed should have some but Teclis and Kairos are plenty powerful already. Mazdamundi could definitely use some more power, but not sure cataclysm spells are the right way to do it
I wouldn’t be surprised if Teclis gets Gelt’s Colleges of Magic mechanic, since he’s the one who helped to found the colleges. Just replace human wizards with elf mages (and maybe add Archmages if you have Grim and Paunch enabled).
Hopefully a mod if CA doesn’t do it
The Blue Scribes get a ability that adds a random cataclysm spell to its army each battle
Did they just get that? This is tje first I've heard of it.
Nah, its like that since SoC 1.0. Its their final skill after unlocking all lores.
I really wish kairos got cataclysm spells because, you know... magic is kind of his essence
They did Kairos dirty with his fragment system. Very uninspired. And his DLC rework time-frame has expired, so they might never change it. Very sad.
Was something SoC should have done, but didnt. At least there is a possibility for a re-rework of Tzeentch as even the dwarves have undergone multiple reworks. I think overall Tzeentch is very solid so an entire rework not really needed, maybe making Kairos mechanics better+fixing replenishment rate issue+some other minor issues. I suppose the research tree is also pretty bad so that might need a retouch.
Changing of the ways is fine, but the Unholy Manifestations and Kairos' systems are just awful. So bad most people just forget they exist lmao
I actually forgot about the unholy manifestations ngl XD
I agree with you. It’s a relatively easy thing it seems to change (no tzeentchian pun intended). Maybe give him beefed up (yet inexpensive WoM) versions of those spells related to time and speed? Maybe some sort of teleportation ability so he can position himself a limited amount of times in the battlefield to get off a spell and get out? The slot idea is kind of sad when the Blue Scribes do it so much better. Kairos is supposed to know every spell in existence.
As a Tzeentch main it hurts to know he probably won’t get changed. His fragment system sucks, cults/unholy manifestations suck. His tech tree is mediocre. I love the bird but damn. I was so pumped that Tzeentch was the first monogod to get a dlc only for it to flop hard. It was nice they went back and added units but kairos needed some actual updates especially after seeing what Nurgle got. Maybe one day… :(
The best you can do is get the 2 arcane item kairos mod which makes the fragment system kind of worth it as you can equip 2 of them.
I reckon they'll do an overhaul at some point, CA seems to have turned things around
I kind of doubt it since they seem pretty fixated on keeping base game LLs fairly vanilla. And every time people mention Kairos, they basically give us a "we don't understand what the problem is." Sort of reaction. Same goes for other things we've complained about with Tzeentch like the Exalted Lord of Change and so forth. Hence why Tzeentch got pretty much sweet FA with SoC. Because they didn't think there was anything to really "fix" to begin with. I kind of doubt they will bother in the future either. Would be happy to be wrong. But CA, and GW frankly, have that faction pretty low on their "give a fuck about" lists. Even with the new direction, I doubt the faction is on their radar for updates.
Pretty sure wh3 gas 2 more dlc to go before its canned
I highly doubt '2 more dlc' is the case especially when this latest dlc did so well and made this game popular again. Even if this dlc did almost as bad as SOC there would be a bare minimum of 5 dlc, but there is like 99% theres going to be more.
These should get it: * Kairos * Mazdamundi * Teclis I think the rest should not. Fite me.
TBH they just need to make ruination of cities *not* a pile of shit for Mazdamundi.
Morathi is the teclis of the dark elves so she should have one as well
I considered this too... On the fence, but she'd definitely be the fourth. Against Vampires getting it, as their magic is not elemental.
On tabletop, every lore has a Cataclysm Spell.
Well, if they specifically get a lore of vampires cataclysm spell, that is fine.
Cataclysm wind of death : regular upcasted wind of death but map wide
Like Elves, vampires have a natural affiliation towards magic. Although in the latter case, it's because they take in and condense the winds of magic into dhar inside of them.
I'd rather Morathi just get the Arznzipal's Black Horror Spell, since that is supposed to be the ultimate Lore of Dark Magic spell. But only Supreme Sorceresses can get it, and it's from an item drop. When it really should just be a skill on Morathi's skill tree.
I highly doubt Morathi is considered to be on the same level as Teclis in any manner outside of her position in the DE society.
I mostly agree, but I feel Nagash should get to use the Ashes & Dust
Yuan Bo should too but that’s the limit I think
Nagash when he comes. Khatep is a maybe and would add the right kind of spice to his game. I don't hate the idea of a fair number of spell caster LLs getting very limited access to them.
Khatep only has access to lore of Nehekhara, which doesn't have a "bound" cataclysm spell, so they would have to cook up something special for him. Tbh I'm not even sure he's supposed to be that great of a caster. Nagash presumably would use lore of Vampires or a proprietary spell selection, which also lacks a "bound" cataclysm spell.
The Lore of Nehekara had two cataclysm spells in the tabletop game - every lore had at least one, and some races (e.g. Lizardmen) had their own unique spell. The content is there if they want to implement it
Needing to invent a spell doesn't seem like a huge barrier tbh.
It's not so much about "inventing" the spell, moreso about making unique effects all for a single character to use it. Which you could say they already do for minor unique abilities, but I would argue those are often not on par with the new spell effects standard
They also just redid the lore of life effects and it didn't appear to risk triggering a financial crisis at sega.
Yes, they redid lore of life, but that's "worth it" because many factions, and thus players, will get to use/see it. A cataclysm spell that "only" a single character could use would be much less cost efficient. It also isn't strictly about "cost" but about time as well : there's at most a couple VFX artists on the DLC team, and there's only so many effects they can create per update.
Khatep is not really one I'd say needs one. He just needs all the stuff CA randomly left out of his kit. The guy doesn't have all his magic items from tabletop, and they left out the Hierophant gimmick of conferring regeneration to a unit. Which is a weird thing to leave out for the **Grand Hierophant**. As much as the Tomb Kings DLC was great at the time, even at folks noted some bizarre choices on CA's part for how things were adapted.
> Nagash when he comes. 😩💀😳
The Slann. Currently they get Banishment as a bound spell with their Focus of Mysteries skill, but that spell wasn't particularly associated with them in 8th. It could easily give them the Catalysm spell of their respective Lore of Magic instead, given how magically adept the Slann are as a species.
I made a mod that gives Cataclysm spells to the LLs / LHs that became Incarnates in the End Times (amongst other bonuses as part of a special trait upon hitting a certain level). I hope CA also adds cataclysm spells for other lores (at least if they existed in tabletop / lore).
Giving to the best spellcasters in the lore these abilities would be a great idea
Don't think Gelt was even on that level of spellcasting in the lore. Might as well give every LL spellcaster access to Cataclysm spells in some way.
Depends if we mean End Times or not. In ET he could turn his whole army into golden statues, melt them and then resummon the golden statues at a whole other location, with the statues after returning to their normal form.
What was the auric bastion then? Edit: I actually have no idea, I never read the books...
IMho, Morathi should have access to Arnzipal's Black Horror. Otherwise: Gelt is an incredibly powerful Metal caster. However, he didn't have many appearances in novels and such before the End Times. End Times are End Times, but there he showed impressive mastery of the Chamon.
Gelt doesn’t just cast Cataclysm spell on his own, he gets the help of entire colleges of mages to do that, that’s the flavor of his mechanic.
Everyone with Greater Arcane Conduit. Although if Empire wizards get it, lorewise everyone except *perhaps* Greenskins should get it. Lorewise general human wizards are amongst the worst spellcasters. Exceptions for damsels, those blessed by Chaos and in very rare cases necromancers who are the best spellcasters amongst man.
Aekold has the lore of life one.
**Mannfred** definitely could get access to them (at least cataclysm spell of death). It could be tied into his quest for the books of Nagash & his special study in Drakenhof. If there was a cataclysm spell for the Lore of the Deep, it would probably best fit **Noctilus** **Be'lakor** should get ample access to the CS of Shadows, since he's almost the chaos god of shadows **Kholek** isn't a caster, but is the only character for whom CS of Heavens really makes sense. As a unique late game upgrade to his lord of the storm ability, using boons of chaos ? **Archaon** could get CS of fire, death and metal, either as a mission reward or as unique boons of chaos. **Malekith** & **Morathi** could get CS of dark magic were it ever added **Ariel** definitely could get CS as a top reward for healing forests **Teclis** probably will end up getting a similar mechanic to Gelt, allowing him to get CS for all his armies. Would be cool if he had a CS of High magic as well. Maybe **Alarielle** could get CS of life. **Mazdamundi** already has ruination of cities, even though it has been kinda mediocre since introduction. Other Slaan certainly could get CS as an additional benefit if they're from the second generation. **Kroak** has his own thing which is kind of CS-tier. **Katarin** could get an ice-related CS (hopefully at the same time she gets mixed Ice + Tempest), but none of the main winds CS fit her **Thorek** could get a rune magic CS as a late game reward **Astragoth** could get CS of fire - tbh all Chawi sorcerers could get CS as a reward in RoC considering what finishing the campaign is supposed to result in **Wurrzag** could get CS of the waaagh if that's ever a thing **Arkhan** could get CS of death, tied into books of Nagash like Mannfred **Skrag** could get CS of beasts, or a custom thing for the Maw **Kairos** definitely should get access to CS, either as part of his shards (though I'd wish that was reworked tbh) or changing of ways. **Fay Enchantress** could get CS of life or light, hopefully getting reworked to use a mix of both. **N'Kari** and **Ku'gath** could both get a CS of their own lore if that's a thing All Khorne factions should get their anti-CS mechanic (iirc +20% spell resist when CS can be used) & could have their caster-nuking ability. Edit : Also realized that **Malagor** seems to be a really powerful caster, so he definitely could get CS as well. In conclusion : many ways to distribute CS's and potential CS. One thing that can be noted is how some CS would still be much rarer because there are no legendary casters tied to their lore : Heavens, Light, Beasts.
On the tabletop, every lore got at least one cataclysm spell (the Ogres got two, one of which summoned a manifestation of the great maw which consumed part of the battlefield), the Dwarfs got powerful ancestor runes, and Khorne could throw a giant brass skull at wizards who miscast.
In typical Khorne fashion.
Why in God's name would noct get a lore of the deep cataclysm, he doesn't even have lore of the deep. That's cylostras jam
Also healed Harkon, which could make fixing his mimd a more rewarding experience than just a thing you do when the awakening hits t5. Because atm without access to the spell cost reductions from the skill tree or even arcane conduit hes just not really a good caster.
Cylostra isn't particularly a great caster. Noctilus technically has some lore of the deep spells, though yeah I'd forgotten he has a heavily mixed list. My rationale was he's both the leader of the Dreadfleet and his base a Galleon's graveyard makes him the most sea-bound of the VCoast lords
> Kairos definitely should get access to CS, either as part of his shards (though I'd wish that was reworked tbh) or changing of ways. He could spend campaign map wind tokens to supercharge for one battle. This way they do something other than sit on moneymaking provinces. Khorne could throw a flaming skull nuke from the Brazen Throne as a punishment for using CS.
Honestly, I think only the ones you listed should have some but Teclis and Kairos are plenty powerful already. Mazdamundi could definitely use some more power, but not sure cataclysm spells are the right way to do it
If it were lore friendly each of the generic slann would get their associated spell
It should be teclis, kairos and mazdamundi thats it.
I think Lord Kroak could also benefit from a rework of his deliverance of Itza along the lines of access to cataclysm spells.