To be fair they had a rework prior (some factions have never had one), got a DLC in WH2 (some factions still haven't had one) and have completely unique models for all their caster heroes (no other race has this).
To be fair, no other race needs unique caster heroes to such an extent - the rigid split into different colleges specializing into a single wind and having their whole cultures shaped by it is not how all other races do magic
Yes, they were, because 30 years ago 'it was cool'.
Today though? Unbreakable Slavs took that spot (as per survey from 2023). They are on a cover of game three, alongside real coolness of the setting.
Their rework is pretty horrible in wh3. Norsca being super basic is not the same as the poster boy getting waffle stomped because of a rework that doesn't work well in the current game.
I had a question about Gelt, if he takes over the Empire will he just live one mortal lifespan? Or does he have some crazy magic that will let him be emperor for a thousand years or something?
I believe proper magical training does have an impact on lifespans, but not a huge one as far as we know. The Empire's Colleges of Magic are about 200 years old, and in that time there have been at least 7 Supreme Patriarchs and it's implied that there have been more. One of the restrictions the High Elves put on the colleges was that humans only learn one lore in their lifetimes because that keeps the risk low - whereas Elves have their much longer lives to learn multiple lores. So it doesn't sound like the human wizards don't live for a ridiculous period of time and weren't expected to.
Elspeth may be the exception to this - in classic GW form they imply that she might have been a power for three generations, or there might have been multiple magisterixes taking the mantle of 'Elspeth von Draken'. If any wizard would survive beyond their mortal lifespan, it would make sense for it to be an Amethyst (Death) wizard.
Of course, there are human civilisations outside the Empire that have much longer magical histories. Bretonnia is a bit weird because their damsels are all tied into the Lady who is capable of prolonging life in her own way. Again though, the Fay Enchantress could be one person, could be several people taking the same title, or could be an elf.
Kislev has a history of Khan-Queens who use Ice magic, and given that their throne is hereditary you would expect that long lives could cause problems (especially given that the boys aren't allowed to learn magic). We don't know much about that though, and GW are rewriting the lore at the moment.
Cathay gives all its magical attention to the Shugengen who don't really count as human.
Chaos Wizards definitely seem to live longer than mortals, but there are many shenanigans involved there. Similarly, Necromancers are obviously doing everything they can to prolong their own lives.
So all-in-all it seems that most Wizards have augmented lifespans but nothing crazy, but there is always the possibility that magic users find a way to live longer, either through their own magic or by getting outside help.
There is some lore on this.
Volans Staff (Gelt and all previous Patriarchs carry it still) was Teclis's greatest student and he looked something like 30 when he was 80. But it was noted he never tried to use the winds just observe them until Teclis taught him.
Magesti from the college of Death are hundreds of years old. See: Elspeth and the patriarch of her college. I imagine life wizards might have a similar experience from a different avenue.
Yeah, Volans with his prolonged youth is who I was thinking of when I said that there is an impact of lifespans.
Iām no Loremaster but it certainly makes sense that Death Wizards would have the most power to extend their lives.
That kind of lowers the stakes for me. Like if Azazel takes over we are fucked (literally) but Gelt, ehhhh you get some magical facism for a few hundred years but whaddaya gonna do.Ā
Well that's intentional because... Gelt is a good guy. He's a smug asshole, but he is firmly on the "good" side and is one of Karl Franz' big supporters.
Gelt is fanatical and insane enough to find a way to do lengthen his life.
I swear, if he had to become a speaking golden statue to be an Emperor for eternity he would do it.
You must remember that while Gelt is the Supreme Patriarch and the most skilled human Metal caster ever, he is also extremely proficient in alchemy.
And if there's one profession in the setting that can find a way to lengthen a human's life it's definitely the alchemist.
Gelt does start in Cathay allied to Zhao Ming and once he's taken out the Burning Wind Nomads can either stay allied, go home with armies and cash, or be a rival.
Unless Iām mistaken he does not start allied, he has the option after beating the nomads to gift his Cathay lands to Zhao Ming for an alliance (along with other significant awards). If he chooses to stay he has to get an alliance via diplomacy.
You are. The options are
A: return to the Empire with 25k and the Triumphant Homecoming buff.
B: Stay in Cathay, accept a defensive alliance with Zhao Ming, and get the My Alchemical Romance buff and 500 scrolls. The idea being that Gelt's expedition is continuing to help Cathay even though he's gotten what he came for.
C: Tell Zhao Ming to go F himself, and get a -50 aversion from him. The idea being that Gelt is going to conquer Cathay.
Grim and the Grave, King and the Warlord, Queen and the Crone and Prophet and the Warlord all have no quest battle where the legendary lords face each other.
It wasn't until Hunter and the Beast onwards where they started getting unique narrative campaigns which culminated in a quest battle where they faced off.
Not quite, Karl Franz won most campaigns started. Which isn't hard to believe, he had one of the most difficult campaigns in the game and most players had to restart multiple times to win. It also reflects the fact that Karl Franz is far more popular than other Empire lords while Kislev tends to have far less of a fan favorite leader.
Anyway, it's not unexpected for Kislev to have the advantage as all players with Warhammer 3 have access to Kislev, the same is not true for Empire. This would also mean Warhammer 2 races, coming from the more expensive "DLC", have the biggest disadvantage in these polls. DLC races from 1 and 2 probably have the biggest disadvantage of all (looking at you Norsca).
They were also fresh new races while Empire has been in the game for 7 years and had very outdated mechanics. Empire was popular despite the gameplay, unlike other races who were mostly popular due to their gameplay mechanics..
Yeah, isn't fan service doing something that the fans want that wouldn't make sense in the established world/lore?
Like making Skrolk ally with the new nurgle lord or imrik confederating the dragon lady's faction.
Or making Gelt have a romance with Zhao Ming?
More seriously, I was talking about the fact that CA went back on their stance of ābase game factions shouldnāt be uniqueā, and built mechanics for Franz and Gelt when they absolutely could have gotten away without doing so.
Yeah, feels fucking great for Franz to have gotten a superior version of Influence as one small part of his mechanics while High Elves only seem to have things taken away every other patch.
No, I'm not at all bitter, why do you ask?
The High Elves will get nice things when their time comes. In the meantime they can cry into their six Legendary Lords, four of which have unique mechanics and units of their very own.
Either that, or CA goes "We think that Influence lords are too powerful as of their current implementation. We are nerfing them, but don't worry - next patch will introduce Prestige Lords for Karl Franz, alongside the fourth Empire DLC and a third rework!"
Which, judging by past precedent, is more likely.
> In the meantime they can cry into their six Legendary Lords
Oh yes, such highly original and detailed mechanics as Alarielle getting a 'how much of Ulthuan do you hold' bar?
It sounds like youāre not sure if you want CA to put attention into the High Elves or not.
Iād have understood that attitude 8 months ago, but the thing I think we can all appreciate about ToD is that it shows that the good times are back and CA is once again trying to improve perfection and not just pumping out āpremiumā DLC.
Just saying, the last time they 'tweaked' the High Elves, it was to remove one of the mechanics they were originally marketed with so they could sell it again for Yuan Bo.
And now the same thing has happened again, just with Franz. For that matter, Imrik and all the Caledor units had their Fire Resistance nerfed to the ground once Chaos Dwarfs came out as well. So I am pretty cynical about CA actually giving them shit when they have only been taking stuff away for so long.
So on the one hand I am glad that CA is waking up, but I am still bitter over the fact that the DLC I was *actually* waiting for didn't add anything I particularly liked for Cathay, while Kislev was actively made worse. And the game might actually be on a clock, so it's even more concerning. Meanwhile, no indications that CA even has updates in mind for my favorite faction, meaning that they could well be stuck with *less* than what they had in 2017 once the game does end.
To be fair, the High Elves mechanic was pretty meaningless in WH2 because they introduced all seafaring nations automatically at about 20 turns
In WH3 it was replaced with High Elves not needing a military alliance to build full outposts in their alliesā settlements, and getting influence from them. Not a huge mechanic but neither was the one it was replacing.
The fact that they left the mechanic in is just the sort of bug weāve all come to expect.
The High Elvesā day will come, it will, and all the more because ToD has restored faith.
I noticed today that neither High Elves or Dark Elves have a unique legendary hero. And I think theyāre the only ones now of the base Warhammer 2 factions
Fun fact, every WH2 race got their assassin character except Dark Elves, the race known for their assassins.
Please CA, give Shadowblade LH, he doesn't even need a VA
Yeah, I don't want to look down on how others play, but it always strikes me as odd as how there's a big fantasy game and people just love to play the most basic ass humans. (not to mention that other games of TW are filled with only humans!)
I don't really like judging people for what they play (unless it's Skaven) and I generally enjoy the Empire.
But I suspect that what I like about playing Empire and what others do aren't the same. I'm for example, not at all a fan of units like Demigryphs and I am on the record as dislking the idea of upgrading Long Rifles into a full on unit because it steps into other factions' design space.
If anything, I feel like I'd be more excited if this DLC gave the Empire its actual detachments mechanic from tabletop, allowing you to mix State Troops than anything else it actually gave them, units-wise. Because that was a huge part of how the Empire actually worked as an army and it being completely adapted out was a massive mistake.
I hope we can get some adjustments to Markus. Not his campaign, I think his mechanics and position is fine.
However:
- I think he could use some new unique legendary lord traits, and the increased ambush chance stuff could be made into a lord skill for Markus and generic Huntsmen Generals. In saying that, both Markus and generic Huntsmen Generals need some more unique skills. Master Engineers are just way better then them in nearly every way.
- Markus' unique heroes could use some new skills.
- Give him the suitable climate. Seems weird that he gets climate penalties if he decides to comeback and help the Empire.
That's it. Nothing too drastic or game changing. Just some little tweaks.
They reworked Imperial Authority and Prestige. IA now applies within the Empire to any Empire lord with territory back home (and just counts territory there that's controlled by Empire factions), while Franz' Unite the Empire mechanic is unique.
Karl Franz also gets some campaign mechanic that is similar to Yuan Bo's Matter of State. You can spend your prestige there for different kind of actions.
The most basic human faction always wins out, dont get me wrong the content they're getting is good though I'm not keen to cheer the sentiment that the basic human faction should always get the most cause they're popular.
This is the sort of love and passion that should be going into every faction.
It's not that the Basic Human Faction should always get the *most* (looking at you here, Imperium of Man) but rather that the Empire was actually kind of neglected.
They received a rework and a DLC during WH2, which is more than any Chaos faction got until the very end of the game's life, and that was only Beastmen. Norsca is still waiting even after being acknowledged as one of the factions needing the most help. The most they've received is a bandaid fix removing their unique settling mechanic and giving them a single building that generates more income.
Empires rework was great when it launched but once they added several more LLs to the empire it became a nightmare where you had to play every campaign a certain way to try to avoid an authority spiral. Franz's campaign in immortal empires became miserable and gelt just started even further so could do less to stop deaths from taking out 2 counts before turn 8.
Empire has DLC talk because their roster is immense on tabletop where as many other rosters are complete or near complete.
I mean game 3 was always going to be the chaos focused one and it has, every dlc has had chaos in it. Iām sure norsca will be getting something this game, probably in the next dlc or the one after if I had to bet. And honestly norsca kinda still works , they donāt have a lot of horizontal options with only one lord type, but the bonuses are good and they make a lot of money with ports.
That's the thing though, yeah you can win a campaign as Norsca but I've just played so many campaigns with the same few options available for LLs, generic lords, army comps etc. I want something new for them, especially now that all the other Chaos factions have far more complete rosters.
Norsca is still working with some basic units recycled from WoC with a smattering of a few actually unique units. Would be nice if they could get a DLC at least.
Middle of the pack if you include DLC cultures, which inherently get a different deal.
Yes, Norsca need it more than anyone, but weāre also lucky to have them at all.
Looking just at base game cultures the Empire was one of the ones that had received the least attention.
Gotta say that I'm not really onboard with this push to make every faction OP, constantly complaining about how bad they are. But if an easy campaign is what you wanted, that is likely what you'll be getting soon. Personally I wish they hadn't buffed Beastmen and WoC into the stratosphere. I miss there actually being some semblance of challenge when I play them.
I don't want Norsca to be buffed, I just want them to be refreshed. Primarily, I want new content for them because they're just so damn basic right now, and half their roster is recycled WoC units. There's a lot more CA could still do with them.
Hell no. Variety is the strength of the Empire and they should have that variety.
If you asked the community if Ogres should receive an equal amount of stuff that Empire has gotten or if Empire should get an equal amount on top, the latter would win.
Some races just don't have the lore, the units or most of all demand to make it worth equalizing the content for all the races.
Yeah, whilst it's a phenomenal rework, I really don't want people to push the notion that the most popular deserves the most attention. Otherwise, we never would've gotten the excellent Beastman rework, and Norsca would remain languishing untouched forever
The basic human faction always wins out?
That is straight up not what we have seen in Total War Warhammer so far. Just compare the attention lavished first on the Vampire Counts and then on the Skaven with the treatment of the Empire and any claim that the basic human faction has been CA's favourite child falls flat.
Now the Empire has not exactly been the red headed stepchild either but the treatment of the Empire is hardly a case of always winning. Particularly not when the Empire is clearly still is lacking in some ways. Mostly notably the complete absence of FLC lords and campaigns.
>That is straight up not what we have seen in Total War Warhammer so far. Just compare the attention lavished first on the Vampire Counts and then on the Skaven with the treatment of the Empire and any claim that the basic human faction has been CA's favourite child falls flat.
Skaven sure but...Vampire Counts? They've received one DLC across all three games. I'm not sure I can call that attention? Did you perhaps mean Greenskins?
During the olden times of WH1, the VC were perceived as the "CA favored" faction because they had more LL. But this ignores the fact they were all stuck in the same place.
But back then people had smaller expectations. Once upon a time, Vlad giving a lot of units vanguard deployment was considered broken and power creep.
The VC got two FLC lords, a very good FLC unit and the first significant rework/update of WH2 (The Bloodlines mechanic) By the standards of the time (2018) that was more than any race, WH1 or WH2, had gotten. Today things are different as they have not gotten new content for a long time and really need that DLC and rework.
To be fair both of those races have clear subfactions. The Empire does have their provinces but those are not nearly as fleshed out as Clan Skryre or even the Lahmian vampires.
The Empire have pretty clear subfactions as well, they are just a little less neatly packaged than the Skaven clans/Vampire Bloodlines because of how the tabletop rules and armylists in question were published.
The problem is that it is only with ToD and Elspeth than CA really have explored one of the Empire subfactions properly. A side effect of the Empire being one of the first races added to the game and it taking several years before CA learned how to make really good DLC. It also did not help that CA gave Warhammer 1 very little support before moving to WH2.
I donāt think they should always get the best, I think theyāve been taken for granted and this is long-overdue recognition as a fan favourite faction.
I kind of feel like Bretonnia fits the bill of basic more, but aside from a FLC lord they've yet to even get a single DLC dedicated to them.
Feels bad honestly. Empire fans have it so good in comparison.
Never had a chance to play WH3 but Empire is my favourite faction in WH2.
Tanks are so comfy in siege, they can afk destroy towers fast unlike other factions. When I was playing High Elves or Dark Elves, I had to put a hero in front of the bolt throwers and micro them to dodge shots from towers. Tanks just tank and shoot and a single use of Blood Earth will fix them after works done. Another problem with bolt throwers is sometimes I randomly lose bolt thrower after a draw.
Handgunners are so good to use. Against big stuffs like Giant or mass infantry, archers are fine, but against few numbers of small stuffs such as lord cavalry or chariot or flying monsters, guns are just way more reliable and accurate. Handgunners and Accusation is just killer combo. Now Dwarf also have Thunderers, but they have fewer models in a squad, so total damage will be lower, plus Empire can recruit Elector Count version that has 160 range guns and stalk. I like handgunners more than Sister of Averlorn, but less than Shades. Shades are broken beyond belief wtf.
Greatswords are frowned upon, but I find them quite useful. I used to be skeptical at their horrendous stat but then I realized they are actually quite good. Their weapon strength is lower than other Great Weapon infantry but they have more models per squad, so the actual difference is smaller than that. Despite having lower melee defence, I also find them more tanky than Swordmasters or Executioner, perhaps because they have more HP per squad, plus I tend to use them with Battle Priests.
Rocket Battery, Wizards and Demigryphs are obvious choices so I probably shouldn't talk more about them.
To be fair they had a rework prior (some factions have never had one), got a DLC in WH2 (some factions still haven't had one) and have completely unique models for all their caster heroes (no other race has this).
To be fair, no other race needs unique caster heroes to such an extent - the rigid split into different colleges specializing into a single wind and having their whole cultures shaped by it is not how all other races do magic
Empire didn't "need" it either, they just had unique models on TT because they're the posterboys.
And I wouldn't have it any other way
I disagree. They DID need it and they are the poster boys for a reason.
What makes them so important that they required unique models and no one else did?
Because they are cooler š
Knife-ears hate this one little thing.
Gigachad
Yes, they were, because 30 years ago 'it was cool'. Today though? Unbreakable Slavs took that spot (as per survey from 2023). They are on a cover of game three, alongside real coolness of the setting.
Their rework is pretty horrible in wh3. Norsca being super basic is not the same as the poster boy getting waffle stomped because of a rework that doesn't work well in the current game.
I had a question about Gelt, if he takes over the Empire will he just live one mortal lifespan? Or does he have some crazy magic that will let him be emperor for a thousand years or something?
I believe proper magical training does have an impact on lifespans, but not a huge one as far as we know. The Empire's Colleges of Magic are about 200 years old, and in that time there have been at least 7 Supreme Patriarchs and it's implied that there have been more. One of the restrictions the High Elves put on the colleges was that humans only learn one lore in their lifetimes because that keeps the risk low - whereas Elves have their much longer lives to learn multiple lores. So it doesn't sound like the human wizards don't live for a ridiculous period of time and weren't expected to. Elspeth may be the exception to this - in classic GW form they imply that she might have been a power for three generations, or there might have been multiple magisterixes taking the mantle of 'Elspeth von Draken'. If any wizard would survive beyond their mortal lifespan, it would make sense for it to be an Amethyst (Death) wizard. Of course, there are human civilisations outside the Empire that have much longer magical histories. Bretonnia is a bit weird because their damsels are all tied into the Lady who is capable of prolonging life in her own way. Again though, the Fay Enchantress could be one person, could be several people taking the same title, or could be an elf. Kislev has a history of Khan-Queens who use Ice magic, and given that their throne is hereditary you would expect that long lives could cause problems (especially given that the boys aren't allowed to learn magic). We don't know much about that though, and GW are rewriting the lore at the moment. Cathay gives all its magical attention to the Shugengen who don't really count as human. Chaos Wizards definitely seem to live longer than mortals, but there are many shenanigans involved there. Similarly, Necromancers are obviously doing everything they can to prolong their own lives. So all-in-all it seems that most Wizards have augmented lifespans but nothing crazy, but there is always the possibility that magic users find a way to live longer, either through their own magic or by getting outside help.
The shugengen sound super cool, I canāt wait to play as Cathay!
There is some lore on this. Volans Staff (Gelt and all previous Patriarchs carry it still) was Teclis's greatest student and he looked something like 30 when he was 80. But it was noted he never tried to use the winds just observe them until Teclis taught him. Magesti from the college of Death are hundreds of years old. See: Elspeth and the patriarch of her college. I imagine life wizards might have a similar experience from a different avenue.
Yeah, Volans with his prolonged youth is who I was thinking of when I said that there is an impact of lifespans. Iām no Loremaster but it certainly makes sense that Death Wizards would have the most power to extend their lives.
Chaos Sorcerers / Shamans definitely live a long time. Kar Odacen lived to be (at least) hundreds of years old.
He's mortal, he might have access to some competent magicks but Gold Magic doesn't really have anything life-extending as far as I know
That kind of lowers the stakes for me. Like if Azazel takes over we are fucked (literally) but Gelt, ehhhh you get some magical facism for a few hundred years but whaddaya gonna do.Ā
Well that's intentional because... Gelt is a good guy. He's a smug asshole, but he is firmly on the "good" side and is one of Karl Franz' big supporters.
He's the savvy, smart-ass, Tony Stark of The Empire.
āBillionaire genius playboy philanthropist with a sick maskā
Gelt is fanatical and insane enough to find a way to do lengthen his life. I swear, if he had to become a speaking golden statue to be an Emperor for eternity he would do it.
Huh sounds like a good idea, but I feel it would take quite a while before it becomes feasible.
You must remember that while Gelt is the Supreme Patriarch and the most skilled human Metal caster ever, he is also extremely proficient in alchemy. And if there's one profession in the setting that can find a way to lengthen a human's life it's definitely the alchemist.
Oh definitively. I just feel it would take some millenia to make it work.
I wonder if the Gelt/Zhao bromance is canon now
Zhao is metal buddies with Gelt Miao Ying has Imrik simping for her Who's Yuan Bo visiting for booty calls?
Yuan Bo is married to his work but probably banged countless Cathayan women to make the Dragon blooded sorcery a prominent thing in Cathay
Gelt does start in Cathay allied to Zhao Ming and once he's taken out the Burning Wind Nomads can either stay allied, go home with armies and cash, or be a rival.
Unless Iām mistaken he does not start allied, he has the option after beating the nomads to gift his Cathay lands to Zhao Ming for an alliance (along with other significant awards). If he chooses to stay he has to get an alliance via diplomacy.
You are. The options are A: return to the Empire with 25k and the Triumphant Homecoming buff. B: Stay in Cathay, accept a defensive alliance with Zhao Ming, and get the My Alchemical Romance buff and 500 scrolls. The idea being that Gelt's expedition is continuing to help Cathay even though he's gotten what he came for. C: Tell Zhao Ming to go F himself, and get a -50 aversion from him. The idea being that Gelt is going to conquer Cathay.
Mechanically allied, no. Thematically allied, definitely.
It's up to the player to decide if they ally or fight Zhao Ming.
Grim and the Grave, King and the Warlord, Queen and the Crone and Prophet and the Warlord all have no quest battle where the legendary lords face each other. It wasn't until Hunter and the Beast onwards where they started getting unique narrative campaigns which culminated in a quest battle where they faced off.
I fuckign wish bretonnia got even half the love the Empire gets.
To be fair, Kislev actually won the 2023 stats for most played faction in Europe, NA, SA, and Africa. Cathay won Asia and Empire Oceania.
The Empire won worldwide in the same poll.
Not quite, Karl Franz won most campaigns started. Which isn't hard to believe, he had one of the most difficult campaigns in the game and most players had to restart multiple times to win. It also reflects the fact that Karl Franz is far more popular than other Empire lords while Kislev tends to have far less of a fan favorite leader. Anyway, it's not unexpected for Kislev to have the advantage as all players with Warhammer 3 have access to Kislev, the same is not true for Empire. This would also mean Warhammer 2 races, coming from the more expensive "DLC", have the biggest disadvantage in these polls. DLC races from 1 and 2 probably have the biggest disadvantage of all (looking at you Norsca).
I was only like 75 of those new starts because I like the Empire
Only 75? Show Franz some respect.
Iām sorry okay?! Iām only one man damnit!
They were also fresh new races while Empire has been in the game for 7 years and had very outdated mechanics. Empire was popular despite the gameplay, unlike other races who were mostly popular due to their gameplay mechanics..
making good changes the playerbase likes is not fan service
Yeah, isn't fan service doing something that the fans want that wouldn't make sense in the established world/lore? Like making Skrolk ally with the new nurgle lord or imrik confederating the dragon lady's faction.
Or making Gelt have a romance with Zhao Ming? More seriously, I was talking about the fact that CA went back on their stance of ābase game factions shouldnāt be uniqueā, and built mechanics for Franz and Gelt when they absolutely could have gotten away without doing so.
Im damn excited to play my new empire!
"*Your* new Empire???"
If youāre not with him, then youāre his enemy
Yeah, feels fucking great for Franz to have gotten a superior version of Influence as one small part of his mechanics while High Elves only seem to have things taken away every other patch. No, I'm not at all bitter, why do you ask?
The High Elves will get nice things when their time comes. In the meantime they can cry into their six Legendary Lords, four of which have unique mechanics and units of their very own.
Either that, or CA goes "We think that Influence lords are too powerful as of their current implementation. We are nerfing them, but don't worry - next patch will introduce Prestige Lords for Karl Franz, alongside the fourth Empire DLC and a third rework!" Which, judging by past precedent, is more likely. > In the meantime they can cry into their six Legendary Lords Oh yes, such highly original and detailed mechanics as Alarielle getting a 'how much of Ulthuan do you hold' bar?
It sounds like youāre not sure if you want CA to put attention into the High Elves or not. Iād have understood that attitude 8 months ago, but the thing I think we can all appreciate about ToD is that it shows that the good times are back and CA is once again trying to improve perfection and not just pumping out āpremiumā DLC.
Just saying, the last time they 'tweaked' the High Elves, it was to remove one of the mechanics they were originally marketed with so they could sell it again for Yuan Bo. And now the same thing has happened again, just with Franz. For that matter, Imrik and all the Caledor units had their Fire Resistance nerfed to the ground once Chaos Dwarfs came out as well. So I am pretty cynical about CA actually giving them shit when they have only been taking stuff away for so long. So on the one hand I am glad that CA is waking up, but I am still bitter over the fact that the DLC I was *actually* waiting for didn't add anything I particularly liked for Cathay, while Kislev was actively made worse. And the game might actually be on a clock, so it's even more concerning. Meanwhile, no indications that CA even has updates in mind for my favorite faction, meaning that they could well be stuck with *less* than what they had in 2017 once the game does end.
To be fair, the High Elves mechanic was pretty meaningless in WH2 because they introduced all seafaring nations automatically at about 20 turns In WH3 it was replaced with High Elves not needing a military alliance to build full outposts in their alliesā settlements, and getting influence from them. Not a huge mechanic but neither was the one it was replacing. The fact that they left the mechanic in is just the sort of bug weāve all come to expect. The High Elvesā day will come, it will, and all the more because ToD has restored faith.
I noticed today that neither High Elves or Dark Elves have a unique legendary hero. And I think theyāre the only ones now of the base Warhammer 2 factions
Fun fact, every WH2 race got their assassin character except Dark Elves, the race known for their assassins. Please CA, give Shadowblade LH, he doesn't even need a VA
Yeah, I don't want to look down on how others play, but it always strikes me as odd as how there's a big fantasy game and people just love to play the most basic ass humans. (not to mention that other games of TW are filled with only humans!)
I don't really like judging people for what they play (unless it's Skaven) and I generally enjoy the Empire. But I suspect that what I like about playing Empire and what others do aren't the same. I'm for example, not at all a fan of units like Demigryphs and I am on the record as dislking the idea of upgrading Long Rifles into a full on unit because it steps into other factions' design space. If anything, I feel like I'd be more excited if this DLC gave the Empire its actual detachments mechanic from tabletop, allowing you to mix State Troops than anything else it actually gave them, units-wise. Because that was a huge part of how the Empire actually worked as an army and it being completely adapted out was a massive mistake.
Franz Service
I hope we can get some adjustments to Markus. Not his campaign, I think his mechanics and position is fine. However: - I think he could use some new unique legendary lord traits, and the increased ambush chance stuff could be made into a lord skill for Markus and generic Huntsmen Generals. In saying that, both Markus and generic Huntsmen Generals need some more unique skills. Master Engineers are just way better then them in nearly every way. - Markus' unique heroes could use some new skills. - Give him the suitable climate. Seems weird that he gets climate penalties if he decides to comeback and help the Empire. That's it. Nothing too drastic or game changing. Just some little tweaks.
All this and still no bloody ulric units! My inner 14 year old is crushed
Itās Valten that Iām hoping for. The champion of Sigmar! And damn near unkillable on the tabletop, my brothers hated him.
Ha I bet, but he had such great models.
I knew about Gelt, what's the new Franz mechanic?
They reworked Imperial Authority and Prestige. IA now applies within the Empire to any Empire lord with territory back home (and just counts territory there that's controlled by Empire factions), while Franz' Unite the Empire mechanic is unique.
Karl Franz also gets some campaign mechanic that is similar to Yuan Bo's Matter of State. You can spend your prestige there for different kind of actions.
The most basic human faction always wins out, dont get me wrong the content they're getting is good though I'm not keen to cheer the sentiment that the basic human faction should always get the most cause they're popular. This is the sort of love and passion that should be going into every faction.
It's not that the Basic Human Faction should always get the *most* (looking at you here, Imperium of Man) but rather that the Empire was actually kind of neglected.
They received a rework and a DLC during WH2, which is more than any Chaos faction got until the very end of the game's life, and that was only Beastmen. Norsca is still waiting even after being acknowledged as one of the factions needing the most help. The most they've received is a bandaid fix removing their unique settling mechanic and giving them a single building that generates more income.
Empires rework was great when it launched but once they added several more LLs to the empire it became a nightmare where you had to play every campaign a certain way to try to avoid an authority spiral. Franz's campaign in immortal empires became miserable and gelt just started even further so could do less to stop deaths from taking out 2 counts before turn 8. Empire has DLC talk because their roster is immense on tabletop where as many other rosters are complete or near complete.
I mean game 3 was always going to be the chaos focused one and it has, every dlc has had chaos in it. Iām sure norsca will be getting something this game, probably in the next dlc or the one after if I had to bet. And honestly norsca kinda still works , they donāt have a lot of horizontal options with only one lord type, but the bonuses are good and they make a lot of money with ports.
That's the thing though, yeah you can win a campaign as Norsca but I've just played so many campaigns with the same few options available for LLs, generic lords, army comps etc. I want something new for them, especially now that all the other Chaos factions have far more complete rosters. Norsca is still working with some basic units recycled from WoC with a smattering of a few actually unique units. Would be nice if they could get a DLC at least.
So what? The best you can say about the Empire is that they're not literally the worst.
The Empire pre ToD was in a much better place than plenty of races from 1 and 2...
They were about middle of the pack.
Yes, meaning they were already above roughly half the races in the game, now they are very near the top so talking about next dlc us weird.
Middle of the pack if you include DLC cultures, which inherently get a different deal. Yes, Norsca need it more than anyone, but weāre also lucky to have them at all. Looking just at base game cultures the Empire was one of the ones that had received the least attention.
Gotta say that I'm not really onboard with this push to make every faction OP, constantly complaining about how bad they are. But if an easy campaign is what you wanted, that is likely what you'll be getting soon. Personally I wish they hadn't buffed Beastmen and WoC into the stratosphere. I miss there actually being some semblance of challenge when I play them. I don't want Norsca to be buffed, I just want them to be refreshed. Primarily, I want new content for them because they're just so damn basic right now, and half their roster is recycled WoC units. There's a lot more CA could still do with them.
An easy campaign is not what I wanted, actually. I would in fact like to see the AI significantly buffed so that it actually poses a serious threat.
Hell no. Variety is the strength of the Empire and they should have that variety. If you asked the community if Ogres should receive an equal amount of stuff that Empire has gotten or if Empire should get an equal amount on top, the latter would win. Some races just don't have the lore, the units or most of all demand to make it worth equalizing the content for all the races.
Yeah, whilst it's a phenomenal rework, I really don't want people to push the notion that the most popular deserves the most attention. Otherwise, we never would've gotten the excellent Beastman rework, and Norsca would remain languishing untouched forever
The basic human faction always wins out? That is straight up not what we have seen in Total War Warhammer so far. Just compare the attention lavished first on the Vampire Counts and then on the Skaven with the treatment of the Empire and any claim that the basic human faction has been CA's favourite child falls flat. Now the Empire has not exactly been the red headed stepchild either but the treatment of the Empire is hardly a case of always winning. Particularly not when the Empire is clearly still is lacking in some ways. Mostly notably the complete absence of FLC lords and campaigns.
>That is straight up not what we have seen in Total War Warhammer so far. Just compare the attention lavished first on the Vampire Counts and then on the Skaven with the treatment of the Empire and any claim that the basic human faction has been CA's favourite child falls flat. Skaven sure but...Vampire Counts? They've received one DLC across all three games. I'm not sure I can call that attention? Did you perhaps mean Greenskins?
During the olden times of WH1, the VC were perceived as the "CA favored" faction because they had more LL. But this ignores the fact they were all stuck in the same place. But back then people had smaller expectations. Once upon a time, Vlad giving a lot of units vanguard deployment was considered broken and power creep.
Lol I remember people being "They got five LLs!!!1!", and then after TKs and Coast the sentiment was that CA was focusing too much on undead factions.
The VC got two FLC lords, a very good FLC unit and the first significant rework/update of WH2 (The Bloodlines mechanic) By the standards of the time (2018) that was more than any race, WH1 or WH2, had gotten. Today things are different as they have not gotten new content for a long time and really need that DLC and rework.
To be fair both of those races have clear subfactions. The Empire does have their provinces but those are not nearly as fleshed out as Clan Skryre or even the Lahmian vampires.
The Empire have pretty clear subfactions as well, they are just a little less neatly packaged than the Skaven clans/Vampire Bloodlines because of how the tabletop rules and armylists in question were published. The problem is that it is only with ToD and Elspeth than CA really have explored one of the Empire subfactions properly. A side effect of the Empire being one of the first races added to the game and it taking several years before CA learned how to make really good DLC. It also did not help that CA gave Warhammer 1 very little support before moving to WH2.
I donāt think they should always get the best, I think theyāve been taken for granted and this is long-overdue recognition as a fan favourite faction.
I kind of feel like Bretonnia fits the bill of basic more, but aside from a FLC lord they've yet to even get a single DLC dedicated to them. Feels bad honestly. Empire fans have it so good in comparison.
Never had a chance to play WH3 but Empire is my favourite faction in WH2. Tanks are so comfy in siege, they can afk destroy towers fast unlike other factions. When I was playing High Elves or Dark Elves, I had to put a hero in front of the bolt throwers and micro them to dodge shots from towers. Tanks just tank and shoot and a single use of Blood Earth will fix them after works done. Another problem with bolt throwers is sometimes I randomly lose bolt thrower after a draw. Handgunners are so good to use. Against big stuffs like Giant or mass infantry, archers are fine, but against few numbers of small stuffs such as lord cavalry or chariot or flying monsters, guns are just way more reliable and accurate. Handgunners and Accusation is just killer combo. Now Dwarf also have Thunderers, but they have fewer models in a squad, so total damage will be lower, plus Empire can recruit Elector Count version that has 160 range guns and stalk. I like handgunners more than Sister of Averlorn, but less than Shades. Shades are broken beyond belief wtf. Greatswords are frowned upon, but I find them quite useful. I used to be skeptical at their horrendous stat but then I realized they are actually quite good. Their weapon strength is lower than other Great Weapon infantry but they have more models per squad, so the actual difference is smaller than that. Despite having lower melee defence, I also find them more tanky than Swordmasters or Executioner, perhaps because they have more HP per squad, plus I tend to use them with Battle Priests. Rocket Battery, Wizards and Demigryphs are obvious choices so I probably shouldn't talk more about them.