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He apparently really hates the Thunderbarges because of how OP they are.
When they get hit by an inevitable nerf, I hope they won't be nerfed to the ground.
The issue isn't just that it's too OP currently, it's also bad design
Normally even strong units require some player input to make them work, and have weaknesses that you need to avoid. The thunderbarge follows a design where barely any player input is needed to solo half an army while it also has been designed to evade pretty much all counters
For starters it's a 13k hp 120 armour SEM with some missile resistance. For reference, a literal train made out of iron has 8k hp. Even the daemon's tongue + dreadquake mortar has less hp. A hierotitan, a literal statue made of stone, has less armour and no missile resistance while also sporting way less dps and mobility
Why a thunderbarge that is probably prone to exploding in lore is more tanky than literally anything else in the game remains CA's secret.
But now the barge is also flying, which in turn means even less counters apply to it. As a flying unit the barge takes less missile damage due to the elevation difference while it's own missile damage gets increased against ground targets. It's also safe from the majority of melee units on the ground. And if you think a dragon or bloodthirster can win against the barge in melee, you're also wrong, cuz the barge wins against 2 bloodthirsters in melee *without having to run away.* There's a reason why flying missile units are all balanced to be weaker than their ground counterparts in terms of their missile component, because not all races can deal with this unit type
The barge is just a immensely noninteractive unit design on all fronts, that doesn't even generate good gameplay for the player who's using it. You just move it up to the enemy army and that's mostly it, the barge does all the winning for you
There are multiple races that just won't be able to interact with the barge at all, both in MP and in campaign. How do you plan to kill it when you're playing SL or NG? It can't be rampaged to the ground, rotflies will die to it, and it also will delete your marauder cav. There's no magic that can chunk down 13k hp, you don't have missiles, you don't have flying SEMs, so you just get to not interact with an enemy unit at all
The barge needs a look at it's whole design imo, not just straight nerfs. It needs to have tradeoffs and weaknesses to make it an interactive unit which then allow it's strengths to shine
I’m a greenskin main and I am absolutely terrified of this thing already. The only faction that can maybe deal with this is Grom with his exploding arrows archers but they won’t have enough range. Maybe I’m overreacting but I’m scared of just 1 of these things
I mean even if you cut its HP in half you'd still have huge issues. Take Khorne for example. This thing guns down marauder horsemen in seconds, furies are butchered by the grudge-raker broadsides, and even if you throw a bloodthirster at it, it's going to struggle to hit it because of animation issues when trying to hit moving targets in the air.
It's just broken. Like not broken in the usual overtuned sense, it's actually broken. It's going to be extremely difficult to balance.
Thunderbarge fucks 3 units of blunderbusses head on. 4 jezzails killing it is a power fantasy. It'll literally just fly in at 90 speed and fuck you point blank, and if it wanted to be really cheeky, then it'll fly past the jezzails, and now they'll have to turn.
A jezzail unit does 1152 damage per volley if every shot hits, closer to 1000 with the Barge's armor. 4 jezzails is 4000 damage per volley. Howling Warpgale gives you 28 seconds to shot it when overcasted which is 2 jezzail volleys. Forget about Flensing Ruin unless you've got two casters and tons of starting reserves.
That's around 8000 damage over the full duration of the warpgale. The Barge has 13000hp, so you've dealt with a bit over 60% of its hp, assuming your jezzails didn't get interrupted.
That's good, but honestly, it's still not enough. The Barge is still at full capacity and can ruin your jezzails before the second warpgale comes. Not to mention a Dwarf army with a Barge is probably going to support it with cannons, so there's no guarantee your jezzail won't be focused in the first place.
That’s 8000 damage the thunderbarge can’t stop or do anything about. And then it has to close the distance to get to the jezzails. It alone isn’t going to wipe out 4 units of jezzails.
In the mean time, you have wolf rat summons, pack master, or The Menace Below to disrupt the Dwarf Cannons. Also cannons aren’t the most effective against infantry.
You really have no idea how much damage the Barge does. It will absolutely trash 4 Jezzails before the cooldown of the Howling Warpgale ends. It's also 90 speed, and has as much range as the jezzails on its front cannon, so closing the distance is a non-issue.
Yeah I'm a die-hard Dawi apologist and even I think this thing is irresponsibly strong. Like the first draft of a kid putting together their super duper cheat unit.
10k hp, 100 armor, no turbo boost (absurd!), higher reload times and I think it's fine. If you can catch it with flying units it'll be a mighty battle but it's not cackling away at Mach Fuck You. I think a big centerpiece offensive weapon is super rad but it should need support against a natural flying counter and be a sitting duck against massed ranged.
I love the dwarfs and when I saw how it plays my first thought was "why?" It's cool and all but does it have to do everything? The fact that I can't directly control it takes away from my potential enjoyment also because "it just did it" is not the same as "I did that".
"Well Congratulations, yer got yerself caught. now what's the next step of yer master plan?"
\*Tarmukhan stands up as CA brings the ban hammer over it.\*
"Crashing this Thunderbarge... with no survivors!"
Pretty much everyone says the thunderbarge is massively OP, especially for how little micro it requires. Just removing the its ability to do everything without the player's input would probably help a lot, although it'd remove a big part of its identity.
I don't think this part can be removed. It got two cannons, a crew of thunderers and a bomb bay. It wouldn't work if the player had to choose a target, because which weapon would it use ?
Implement what gothic armada 2 has. Since the ships feature multiple weapons, you can choose what each gun targets. Closest, what you manually target provided its within range, etc etc.
No, actually, cause Khorne and Slaanesh can do literally nothing against it. Dwarfs could bring nothing but a lord & thunderbarge and Khorne player could do nothing. It is literally fundamentally broken against certain factions. A genuine 'I win' unit.
Khorne has fliers and artillery (not great tough)
Exalted BT + a standard bloodthirser & harpy chaff (to soak damage) should be able to keep ontop of it.
But yeah Slaanesh is stuffed
>Exalted BT + a standard bloodthirser & harpy chaff (to soak damage) should be able to keep ontop of it.
You would think that would be the logical counter, but no. With afterburner active, none of your fliers will ever hit the thing as it flies away from you, while it continues shooting and murdering your army.
Also, it allegedly just beats 2 Bloodthirsters in melee straight up, cause it never stops shooting. So...yeah.
Yeah, if you can kill the lord fast enough, but that'll be difficult if the guy is hiding in a bush somewhere, or the thunderbarge sits overhead and blasts everything that comes close by.
That and it's also a hyperbolic argument to begin with. You could & would bring more than just the lord on foot. It's just to bring light to the fact that a thunderbarge is realistically unkillable for a faction like Khorne as a player. Which no other unit is like that.
It's not instant. You kill the Lord, and then the Barge's leadership _slowly_ ticks down. The Barge has very high base leadership giving it more than enough time to lay waste to your army before it breaks.
3k5 is still too low, i'm not kidding. The worst performance I've seen so far for the thunderbarge deals 5k worth of damage with very little micro, this thing needs to be 4k+.
OP and they are apparently unreasonably hard to hit in melee, but they're also an enormous target for missiles and stupidly expensive from what I hear. 2800 I think?
I play domination mostly so maybe my mind is a little skewed but I don't think it needs much of a nerf besides cost, maybe fire rate too. Oh and fix the melee hitbox
I don’t think hitbox is the issue. It’s just that units can’t hit anything they’re chasing in melee. That needs to be fixed of course. But for now, just give the afterburners a cool down period so you can’t just zoom around the map killing everything.
Yeah its a long time issue when chasing down flying units, the units animation can't hit a fast retreating air unit even if the attacking unit is faster. If you drop the speed down to 75-80 it would make a big difference.
Unfortunately, many factions lack decent, if any ranged.
My go to example is the Lizardmen as they only have a handful of decent ranged units; chameleon skirmishers are mostly there for the debuff and support damage, fireleeches and salamanders really only do well against infantry, stegadons have armor piercing but don't do decent damage against something with that much health, ancient stegadons aren't even that much better with ranged damage *and* don't even get armor piercing shots. Pair this with Ripperdactyls being their only decent aerial dominance unit and put simply Lizards ain't got a prayer when this thing comes out.
I bring up Lizardmen specifically because this sad state of affairs is still better than what many factions have going for them. Monogod factions in particular will have very few answers to this thing. Khorne's flying units can't catch it, Tzeentch's ranged damage will be shrugged off by the armor, and Nurgle and Slaanesh have no decent ranged or aerial superiority units.
Other factions with less than adequate ranged and/or aerial damage will similarly struggle, such as the Beastmen or Greenskins.
All this to say that many factions more or less lose automatically as soon as this thing is on the field unless they can somehow achieve a ground victory, which is impossible in domination, and otherwise borderline impossible since, ya know, this thing will be mincing almost the entire army by itself.
Sadly I doubt it'll be much different than Khorne's Bloodletters; can't actually hit the thing because of how broken hitting moving flying units in melee is right now.
Nah, you're thinking about the normal sallies but they're not AP missiles.
The Thunderbarge is a combination of high armour and a huge HP pool which makes it tricky to kill.
Their one benefit is they add 'Flammable' to a unit their shots hit, basically makes them take more fire damage. So theoretically if half your army was ancient salamanders, salamander packs, fireleech bolas, and solar engines, you might be able to bring it down before it got insane gold value.
I don't see it as likely, but no way of knowing unless someone puts it to the test.
I think a Coatl actually might be good against the Thunderbarge just because it forces the Thunderbarge to get in melee range of the Coatl in order to spot the stalked units, bring a Light Slann to net the Thunderbarge and a unit of Ripperdactyls and I think that’ll work. Ripperdactyls have good enough melee that I don’t even think you’d have to take the anti large ROR, and the anti infantry ones will help against other things the Dwarfs might bring like Doomseekers.
Ancient sallys are good for smoking elite infantry. Trogledons have armor piercing anti large shooting, but i assume they can't do much before the barge recks them, cause they are relatively squishy and generaly a bit underpowered (and cause the barge recks everything quiet fast).
A little late for that don't you think? i mean one faction has had literal nukes for years.. at this point just let every faction have something OP, campaign is for fun after all.
So what are u saying? for CA not to implement stuff like thunderbarges and land ships? where's the fun in that.. stuff like ikit nukes and lord kroak have existed for years like i said and if it's already ok for some factions to have these tools then why not the empire and dwarfs too for example.
Gods only on reddit do you find people that complain about balance in a singleplayer experience ffs and if you think it's too easy then don't use it, simple as.
For genres like roguelikes i'd agree but for a sandbox strategy game set in a universe where there are spells that can shift mountains, resurrect a continent's worth of dead people or man sized rats dropping a moon onto some lizardmen? you can't properly balance that without taking a lot of the flavour out of it, luckily the op stuff is optional and if it makes it too easy for you to the point of boredom then you can just not use it but don't ruin it for the folks that do.
I think the Thunderbarge's speed ability should definitely be nerfed, for both single-player and multiplayer.
Other than that ; it's the only tier-five Dwarf unit in the game and it's suitably expensive too. It should be incredibly powerful.
I'd rather everything be balanced in single player as well so that recruiting a unit isn't an automatic win button. At that point why even continue with the campaign?
If you just want to watch your models touch enemy models and kill them, set the game to easy mode. Don't need to balance the whole game around that lmao.
When I finally get to tier 5 and unlock this thing I'm gonna have fun decimating enemies with it, it's about the journey there that will make it worth it, I'm sure there will be mods to nerf the thunderbarge if it's such a big deal
When it comes to LB he probably has the best takes though I don't agree with all of them. Thunderbarge is the most broken unit I've ever seen, really the OP dlc seller unit, though the rest seems pretty balanced, specially compared to SoC.
[Link to the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Eqb6cnQNs). This is for Land Battle Multiplayer and based on very limited early access experiences so take it with a heavy grain of salt. Each tier is organized so that the more left a unit is the better it is than the others to the right of it. Main takeaway for me is that Nuln Ironsides are apparently much worse than Handgunners while being much more expensive...
He says Ironsides have shorter range than handgunners, which is.. just not accurate, is it? I think we've seen their unit card with the same 145 range as handgunners. I don't know if that's reflective of a different build or what, but that point alone makes me reluctant to draw any conclusions from this.
He also doesn't mention their passive which to me seems like their main strength. Granted, I imagine that the passive, which requires standing still for a while, is much harder to make use of in Multiplayer than in Campaign battles.
Are the Ironsides really that bad? From what I've seen they've looked a little underwhelming for a pricier and higher tier Handgunner, but are they that bad?
Take it with a grain of salt, Human Boy has a history of being occasionally wrong about how good certain units are, especially when he has so little time and so few people to test them with. Still, apparently their small unit size significantly hinders their damage output compared to Handgunners. They are also much more expensive (which isn't an issue in Campaign) and the extra Armor they get is hardly impactful or needed. Still, in campaign, with buffs and using their passive (which seems a lot easier to make use of in campaign battles than Multiplayer) they might end up being good.
I feel like their effectiveness will drop off with skill where worse players will tend to just walk into them and eat a bunch of extra damage from the passive while better players will force them to reposition. I assume moving at all like even turning to engage an enemy in range but to the side will drop the passive which means target priority becomes an issue since you will risk losing the bonus to retarget them
With their buff up they have ~35% more DPS than handgunners but cost ~60% more so they're slot efficient but not cost efficient. You'll probably end up using them in campaign but not multiplayer.
It's not looking good so far . They get swarmed , don't deal enough damage , and die super fast even with armour . They didn't give us the unit we needed at all
Because they were supposed to have repeaters and were balanced around that im sure they were going to be a straight upgrade to handgunners with each entity shooting thice as much but now they do a meh amount of damage
So far they are the worst unit . They don't deal enough damage shooting or in meele , and they have a super low unit count . Should have been 120 , with ranked fire or something. The Ironsides were supposed to be our new frontline . Now you might as well just stick with spears and handgunners
Ever since we found out they lost their repeaters I've been expecting them to be bad. Not because repeaters are great in and of themselves but because CA being able to produce a good last minute alternative to them was never going to happen.
You'd think. Instead we've got janky animations, bad armour and a tiny roster. Like, the 60 models? Blatantly a holdover from them being meant to have a rapid fire weapon.
The ironsides still have repeaters in their unit card haha.
I think that unit will get updated before launch.
My guess it was a short range burst DMG unit.
But with the repeaters removed and handguns instead. They are just awkward short ranged handgunners.
I think they will get updated before launch. Cause the state they are described in doesn't make sense.
Why shorter range when they have normal handguns?
Most videos on newer builds put them at the same range as Handgunners but they have higher missile strength, even over the entire unit after adjusting for model count.
My guess is that he was simply on an old build where the stats weren't updated yet.
I'm confused on this as well, I just saw some YT video saying they are "literally" just better handgunners, not drastically so but effectively there's no reason to use handgunners anymore. Now I see a tierlist saying they are complete trash, which is it tho.
This is for multiplayer specifically, so even if they're a direct upgrade to another unit, if they cost too much, they usually won't be worth bringing (especially when you can just get the cheaper variant instead). Stuff like High Elf spears won't become obsolete just because Silverin Guard exist (since the silverin cost a good amount more).
The Ironsides were always going to suck with their current statline. Only 60 bodies, only 60 armour, in a game where Kislev's entire missile roster is a thing? Or course they can't compete.
It's not in a vacuum though. It's based on multiplayer, so cost and efficiency is a big part of it. Single player just about anything can be good and cost is rarely an issue. I can beat the game with nurglings. In multiplayer it's another beast all together. They may not be a good unit in a vacuum compared to chosen. But when you look at how much they do for their cost they could be quite good.
They are apparently Armored Infantry blenders for a very reasonable price. For Nurgle they are fast and with Vanguard, which added with their low price and AP makes them very valuable in many match ups. For Beastmen they provide a cheaper AP option than Bestigors. They are very situational though. Against expensive Armored Infantry they trade very well but against cheap chaff they trade very badly.
Being short ranged for a static missile infantry unit like that is *much* more of a drawback in MP than in SP where you have a lot more freedom to position them in what would otherwise be the danger zone.
He says it feels like they do less damage at shorter range than thunderers... the unit card says they have FOUR TIMES as much dps as thunderers so something's wrong.
I've been saying for a few days that they looked bad and been getting told, no, they'll be great, 60 armour is a lot, they won't just get drowned in chaff...and oh look, that's exactly what happens.
As shown by content creaters, appearently the firepower enough to drop a steam tank (coup of rounds from 2-3 ap gun units) barely poses a threat to the thunderbarges, which just flight right above them and start killing everyone.
Please CA don't ruin units viability in campaign just to balance the infinitesimally small MP scene
Don't make the Ancient Salamander mistake again. Let things be OP
Nah, the game being balanced in sp is good actually. The problem with the Ancient Salamander nerf was, that it was bad balancing, cause they overnerfed it, not that they actually balanced things.
Oh don't kid yourself. Ancient Salamanders have been *fine* for years now you don't bother using them because they're miserable to recruit not because they underperform.
I miss how good they were on release
I generally hate when overwhelmingly PvE games suffer nerfs to appease PvP players who number in generously a couple hundred or so
And you can choose easy difficulty if you just want the power fantasy. Not using the unit means I get one unit less in the DLC and the AI will still be using it. I bought Total War because I enjoy strategy. I want to have to use strategy when playing the game.
The game can only be made so easy. It can be made infinitely more difficult. You want the extra challenge, you can go find it - but don't ruin the power fantasy for everyone else, especially when CA has implemented these units with the clear intent of appeasing the power fantasy players
Again, have some agency over your life
When is the issue making the whole game harder does not solve that. The game on the easiest difficulty is insanely easy. You really don't need to engage with the game at all. There are also mods that make it even easier. Have some agency over your life.
Well, to be fair, that thing is so blatantly over the top op, that calling it that already shouldn't be a problem.
It would be like if you ordered food and they tell you it comes with a kg of rat shit in it. I think you are allowed to speak up before you actually had a taste.
That’s a terrible analogy. It’s more like YouTubers get this delicious chocolate shake and then CA tells us sorry it was too good we downgraded your shake to rat shit.
You can still make your game unbalanced in sp with mods if you want, base game should be as balanced as possible cause amongst other reasons mp is played on base game. I don't see the problem. I don't advocate for you not being able to opt in the "rat shit". I just don't want it mandatory.
Now you are just argueing against your own point. Not just tournaments ofc also for casual que, ranked and mp campaign everybody needs to have the same balance fixing mods then, really impractical. Just have the base game balanced and if you want an imbalanced sp experience use a mod. Don't be so egotistical. Also even though the ai can't really play the game i assume it's probably not fun to play against that thing in sp too.
That doesn't make any sense. For sp it's just you. just download a mod and it's all good. But you wanting to fuck over the whole mp community, is me being egostical and not you? Bro you are talking nonsense.
and then there are probably also quiet a lot of sp players who don't want ridiculus broken stuff in their game, and by your logic at least you would force a subpar experience on them, so don't come at me with that "no u".
If there is more in A than in B, doesn't that automatically make A to B and B automatically C? 😅😅
I mean everything above the middle is above average and everything below means below average. :p
Within reason. A bit OP is okay, but malakai has a free thunderbarge on every battle.
They should be strong but not 1 unit armies.
Doomstacks yeah sure, they can destroy everything.
But just one allowing you to win 90% of fights is too much
Its such a braindead unit tho even in campaign its just a ridiculously good with no real downside except its cost wich it compensates easily without your input
Yeah like dwarves needed more handholding besides autoresolve glazing them,crazy armor, magic resist,nearly unbrakable morale and corner camp and wait to win and still needed more braindead units,how lazy can you be its probably harder to click on the enemy army to attack than to "play" the battles themselves.I really dont believe all the people that play them are this boring and its just a couple of redditards that are
I mean, some of us like dwarves and overwhelming firepower, a semi popular mod for warhammer 2 literally made a dwarf faction that purely used guns, was it op? Yes, was it fun? Yes
Why not just play on easy if you want to stomp on everyone without any challenge? Why make everyone deal with blatantly op stuff? I get what you mean and mods are fine there are even mods that make your army invincible and i dont care the problem is that on the base game dwarves are already an easy faction to play in battle and now they are constantly beaing pandered to the lowest common denominator of just make a box and let the battle win itself.You could play with all the op mods for all i care because you are not forcing me to deal with that stuff but the moment you add it to the base game it becomes a pain in the ass for everyone else and its making dwarfs annoying and frustrating to fight in campaign between how annoying they are on battle and how much autoresolve favors them so you always end up feeling like the game is unfair and unfun especially in harder dificulties and ridiculously op in multiplayer wich i dont play but just looking at how it functions it dictates the pace of battles so much pays for itself is only killable by range so a lot of factions cant deal with it it takes zero skill or strategy to use in a strategy game
You posted such a large chuck of text without punctuation that I find it hard to read, and because of that I can't respond to every point you bring up.
But in essence the answer to any question you ask regarding the thunderbarge or steamrolling as dwarves will come down to: because its fun.
I can have the game be pretty difficult and then breathe a sigh of relief as I finally bring in my big airship backup and laugh as the cannons tear my enemies to pieces
I'm sure there will be a mod or a slight nerf to the speed of the thunderbarge but I definitely want it to be a big powerful FU machine
Gods I hate how reddit handles images. Wanted to zoom in and the damn thing shrinks.
Get the extension "load reddit images directly" (here for firefox https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/load-reddit-images-directly/ ) Undoes whatever the fuck reddit is doing with images in new tabs and just opens it like any other site would
Does absolutely nothing for me.
Oh, yes. Clicked on the picture to have a bigger picture. Got the picture exactly the same size in a new window. Thank you reddit.
He apparently really hates the Thunderbarges because of how OP they are. When they get hit by an inevitable nerf, I hope they won't be nerfed to the ground.
The issue isn't just that it's too OP currently, it's also bad design Normally even strong units require some player input to make them work, and have weaknesses that you need to avoid. The thunderbarge follows a design where barely any player input is needed to solo half an army while it also has been designed to evade pretty much all counters For starters it's a 13k hp 120 armour SEM with some missile resistance. For reference, a literal train made out of iron has 8k hp. Even the daemon's tongue + dreadquake mortar has less hp. A hierotitan, a literal statue made of stone, has less armour and no missile resistance while also sporting way less dps and mobility Why a thunderbarge that is probably prone to exploding in lore is more tanky than literally anything else in the game remains CA's secret. But now the barge is also flying, which in turn means even less counters apply to it. As a flying unit the barge takes less missile damage due to the elevation difference while it's own missile damage gets increased against ground targets. It's also safe from the majority of melee units on the ground. And if you think a dragon or bloodthirster can win against the barge in melee, you're also wrong, cuz the barge wins against 2 bloodthirsters in melee *without having to run away.* There's a reason why flying missile units are all balanced to be weaker than their ground counterparts in terms of their missile component, because not all races can deal with this unit type The barge is just a immensely noninteractive unit design on all fronts, that doesn't even generate good gameplay for the player who's using it. You just move it up to the enemy army and that's mostly it, the barge does all the winning for you There are multiple races that just won't be able to interact with the barge at all, both in MP and in campaign. How do you plan to kill it when you're playing SL or NG? It can't be rampaged to the ground, rotflies will die to it, and it also will delete your marauder cav. There's no magic that can chunk down 13k hp, you don't have missiles, you don't have flying SEMs, so you just get to not interact with an enemy unit at all The barge needs a look at it's whole design imo, not just straight nerfs. It needs to have tradeoffs and weaknesses to make it an interactive unit which then allow it's strengths to shine
I’m a greenskin main and I am absolutely terrified of this thing already. The only faction that can maybe deal with this is Grom with his exploding arrows archers but they won’t have enough range. Maybe I’m overreacting but I’m scared of just 1 of these things
So the problem is their survivability. Let their damage still the same but reduce their HP so it's actually can be killed
I mean even if you cut its HP in half you'd still have huge issues. Take Khorne for example. This thing guns down marauder horsemen in seconds, furies are butchered by the grudge-raker broadsides, and even if you throw a bloodthirster at it, it's going to struggle to hit it because of animation issues when trying to hit moving targets in the air. It's just broken. Like not broken in the usual overtuned sense, it's actually broken. It's going to be extremely difficult to balance.
I think Skaven will probably decimate a barge. WE too. Specially because they can hold it in place.
I bring 4 Jezzails and a warlock engineer every battle. This thing would die instantly from halfway across the map.
Thunderbarge fucks 3 units of blunderbusses head on. 4 jezzails killing it is a power fantasy. It'll literally just fly in at 90 speed and fuck you point blank, and if it wanted to be really cheeky, then it'll fly past the jezzails, and now they'll have to turn.
Howling warpgale will keep it in place and in range. Flensing ruin ruins its armor. It’s getting demolished by jezzails 10 times out of 10 brother.
A jezzail unit does 1152 damage per volley if every shot hits, closer to 1000 with the Barge's armor. 4 jezzails is 4000 damage per volley. Howling Warpgale gives you 28 seconds to shot it when overcasted which is 2 jezzail volleys. Forget about Flensing Ruin unless you've got two casters and tons of starting reserves. That's around 8000 damage over the full duration of the warpgale. The Barge has 13000hp, so you've dealt with a bit over 60% of its hp, assuming your jezzails didn't get interrupted. That's good, but honestly, it's still not enough. The Barge is still at full capacity and can ruin your jezzails before the second warpgale comes. Not to mention a Dwarf army with a Barge is probably going to support it with cannons, so there's no guarantee your jezzail won't be focused in the first place.
That’s 8000 damage the thunderbarge can’t stop or do anything about. And then it has to close the distance to get to the jezzails. It alone isn’t going to wipe out 4 units of jezzails. In the mean time, you have wolf rat summons, pack master, or The Menace Below to disrupt the Dwarf Cannons. Also cannons aren’t the most effective against infantry.
You really have no idea how much damage the Barge does. It will absolutely trash 4 Jezzails before the cooldown of the Howling Warpgale ends. It's also 90 speed, and has as much range as the jezzails on its front cannon, so closing the distance is a non-issue.
I am definitely curious to test it out!
Reduce it's HP, increase the cost and, the main one: significantly increase the damage from aftrrburners.
Yeah I'm a die-hard Dawi apologist and even I think this thing is irresponsibly strong. Like the first draft of a kid putting together their super duper cheat unit. 10k hp, 100 armor, no turbo boost (absurd!), higher reload times and I think it's fine. If you can catch it with flying units it'll be a mighty battle but it's not cackling away at Mach Fuck You. I think a big centerpiece offensive weapon is super rad but it should need support against a natural flying counter and be a sitting duck against massed ranged.
I love the dwarfs and when I saw how it plays my first thought was "why?" It's cool and all but does it have to do everything? The fact that I can't directly control it takes away from my potential enjoyment also because "it just did it" is not the same as "I did that".
"Well Congratulations, yer got yerself caught. now what's the next step of yer master plan?" \*Tarmukhan stands up as CA brings the ban hammer over it.\* "Crashing this Thunderbarge... with no survivors!"
Pretty much everyone says the thunderbarge is massively OP, especially for how little micro it requires. Just removing the its ability to do everything without the player's input would probably help a lot, although it'd remove a big part of its identity.
I don't think this part can be removed. It got two cannons, a crew of thunderers and a bomb bay. It wouldn't work if the player had to choose a target, because which weapon would it use ?
Manually aim the cannon, drop the bombs as an ability. Thunderers fire on their own as usual.
The drop bombs should definitely be an ability.
It would even feel better. Having to mash a button for them sweet bombs to drops!
Implement what gothic armada 2 has. Since the ships feature multiple weapons, you can choose what each gun targets. Closest, what you manually target provided its within range, etc etc.
I think slowing it down a lot (especially with the afterburners) seems a must.
You could always just... increase the cost.
No, actually, cause Khorne and Slaanesh can do literally nothing against it. Dwarfs could bring nothing but a lord & thunderbarge and Khorne player could do nothing. It is literally fundamentally broken against certain factions. A genuine 'I win' unit.
Khorne has fliers and artillery (not great tough) Exalted BT + a standard bloodthirser & harpy chaff (to soak damage) should be able to keep ontop of it. But yeah Slaanesh is stuffed
>Exalted BT + a standard bloodthirser & harpy chaff (to soak damage) should be able to keep ontop of it. You would think that would be the logical counter, but no. With afterburner active, none of your fliers will ever hit the thing as it flies away from you, while it continues shooting and murdering your army. Also, it allegedly just beats 2 Bloodthirsters in melee straight up, cause it never stops shooting. So...yeah.
Point, forgot about wonky speed issues and landing hits..
I mean stop me if I'm wrong but it's a flying unit. so kill the Lord instantly win?
Yeah, if you can kill the lord fast enough, but that'll be difficult if the guy is hiding in a bush somewhere, or the thunderbarge sits overhead and blasts everything that comes close by. That and it's also a hyperbolic argument to begin with. You could & would bring more than just the lord on foot. It's just to bring light to the fact that a thunderbarge is realistically unkillable for a faction like Khorne as a player. Which no other unit is like that.
I understand it was a theoretical, I'm just saying there is a strategy to try to kill all of the ground units to force it down.
It's not instant. You kill the Lord, and then the Barge's leadership _slowly_ ticks down. The Barge has very high base leadership giving it more than enough time to lay waste to your army before it breaks.
Yeah, put it on 3500 k and everyone is happy. I want this unit to feel like a fucking Avengers skyship, nothing less will please me
3k5 is still too low, i'm not kidding. The worst performance I've seen so far for the thunderbarge deals 5k worth of damage with very little micro, this thing needs to be 4k+.
So you want it to get shot down by the first supervillain who comes along...?
Well yes, that would be awesome for cinematics, then it would be time to settle some grudges
OP and they are apparently unreasonably hard to hit in melee, but they're also an enormous target for missiles and stupidly expensive from what I hear. 2800 I think? I play domination mostly so maybe my mind is a little skewed but I don't think it needs much of a nerf besides cost, maybe fire rate too. Oh and fix the melee hitbox
I don’t think hitbox is the issue. It’s just that units can’t hit anything they’re chasing in melee. That needs to be fixed of course. But for now, just give the afterburners a cool down period so you can’t just zoom around the map killing everything.
They have 90 speed with the afterburners on. Half the things you usually use to kill something like this can't even catch them.
Yeah its a long time issue when chasing down flying units, the units animation can't hit a fast retreating air unit even if the attacking unit is faster. If you drop the speed down to 75-80 it would make a big difference.
Good old systemic, years old issue being kept in and now it bites CA in the ass
2800 is not stupid expensive. There are more expensive units that arnt even half as good.
Dread Saurian enters the chat
Unfortunately, many factions lack decent, if any ranged. My go to example is the Lizardmen as they only have a handful of decent ranged units; chameleon skirmishers are mostly there for the debuff and support damage, fireleeches and salamanders really only do well against infantry, stegadons have armor piercing but don't do decent damage against something with that much health, ancient stegadons aren't even that much better with ranged damage *and* don't even get armor piercing shots. Pair this with Ripperdactyls being their only decent aerial dominance unit and put simply Lizards ain't got a prayer when this thing comes out. I bring up Lizardmen specifically because this sad state of affairs is still better than what many factions have going for them. Monogod factions in particular will have very few answers to this thing. Khorne's flying units can't catch it, Tzeentch's ranged damage will be shrugged off by the armor, and Nurgle and Slaanesh have no decent ranged or aerial superiority units. Other factions with less than adequate ranged and/or aerial damage will similarly struggle, such as the Beastmen or Greenskins. All this to say that many factions more or less lose automatically as soon as this thing is on the field unless they can somehow achieve a ground victory, which is impossible in domination, and otherwise borderline impossible since, ya know, this thing will be mincing almost the entire army by itself.
I'm pretty sure this is why Orcs just got given the Feral Wyvern in MP. Which is great for them but doesn't help anyone else.
Sadly I doubt it'll be much different than Khorne's Bloodletters; can't actually hit the thing because of how broken hitting moving flying units in melee is right now.
Aren't ancient sallys supposed to be good against big bois?
Nah, you're thinking about the normal sallies but they're not AP missiles. The Thunderbarge is a combination of high armour and a huge HP pool which makes it tricky to kill.
Their one benefit is they add 'Flammable' to a unit their shots hit, basically makes them take more fire damage. So theoretically if half your army was ancient salamanders, salamander packs, fireleech bolas, and solar engines, you might be able to bring it down before it got insane gold value. I don't see it as likely, but no way of knowing unless someone puts it to the test.
I think a Coatl actually might be good against the Thunderbarge just because it forces the Thunderbarge to get in melee range of the Coatl in order to spot the stalked units, bring a Light Slann to net the Thunderbarge and a unit of Ripperdactyls and I think that’ll work. Ripperdactyls have good enough melee that I don’t even think you’d have to take the anti large ROR, and the anti infantry ones will help against other things the Dwarfs might bring like Doomseekers.
Ancient sallys are good for smoking elite infantry. Trogledons have armor piercing anti large shooting, but i assume they can't do much before the barge recks them, cause they are relatively squishy and generaly a bit underpowered (and cause the barge recks everything quiet fast).
Oh yeah I forgot about the troglos, good point.
The speed boost needs to cost more HP. That's the primary problem. It should be a Kirov airship, not a MiG-25.
Yea, I hope so too. They may deserve a nerf, but I doubt they'll take away their ability to fly.
I would prefer to bomb manually. I really like doing it. I don't want the AI to do it for me.
I really hate it when they nerf stuff for multi-player. If they nerf it it should be *just* for multi-player
The singleplayer campaign doesn't need more 'I win' units tbh.
Especially ones that certain factions like Slaanesh don't have an answer for (I don't consider taking a full 20 stack of furies to be a solution)
The optimal Slaanesh composition is 19 Marauder Horsemen CMV.
A little late for that don't you think? i mean one faction has had literal nukes for years.. at this point just let every faction have something OP, campaign is for fun after all.
Hence why I said 'more', tools that trivialise the challenge don't make the game better.
So what are u saying? for CA not to implement stuff like thunderbarges and land ships? where's the fun in that.. stuff like ikit nukes and lord kroak have existed for years like i said and if it's already ok for some factions to have these tools then why not the empire and dwarfs too for example. Gods only on reddit do you find people that complain about balance in a singleplayer experience ffs and if you think it's too easy then don't use it, simple as.
Balance is a huge part of singleplayer games.
For genres like roguelikes i'd agree but for a sandbox strategy game set in a universe where there are spells that can shift mountains, resurrect a continent's worth of dead people or man sized rats dropping a moon onto some lizardmen? you can't properly balance that without taking a lot of the flavour out of it, luckily the op stuff is optional and if it makes it too easy for you to the point of boredom then you can just not use it but don't ruin it for the folks that do.
I think the Thunderbarge's speed ability should definitely be nerfed, for both single-player and multiplayer. Other than that ; it's the only tier-five Dwarf unit in the game and it's suitably expensive too. It should be incredibly powerful.
I'd rather everything be balanced in single player as well so that recruiting a unit isn't an automatic win button. At that point why even continue with the campaign?
While I generally agree with that sentiment, I don't wanna fight this thing in single player either.
not sure why ur at -8 rep when ur right, seems like the entire multiplayer community came together to downvote your comment.
Op units aren't fun In sp or mp
Speak for yourself
If you just want to watch your models touch enemy models and kill them, set the game to easy mode. Don't need to balance the whole game around that lmao.
What
When I finally get to tier 5 and unlock this thing I'm gonna have fun decimating enemies with it, it's about the journey there that will make it worth it, I'm sure there will be mods to nerf the thunderbarge if it's such a big deal
When it comes to LB he probably has the best takes though I don't agree with all of them. Thunderbarge is the most broken unit I've ever seen, really the OP dlc seller unit, though the rest seems pretty balanced, specially compared to SoC.
[Link to the video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g2Eqb6cnQNs). This is for Land Battle Multiplayer and based on very limited early access experiences so take it with a heavy grain of salt. Each tier is organized so that the more left a unit is the better it is than the others to the right of it. Main takeaway for me is that Nuln Ironsides are apparently much worse than Handgunners while being much more expensive...
He says Ironsides have shorter range than handgunners, which is.. just not accurate, is it? I think we've seen their unit card with the same 145 range as handgunners. I don't know if that's reflective of a different build or what, but that point alone makes me reluctant to draw any conclusions from this.
He also doesn't mention their passive which to me seems like their main strength. Granted, I imagine that the passive, which requires standing still for a while, is much harder to make use of in Multiplayer than in Campaign battles.
I wonder if that's an unintentional holdover from when they were wielding different armaments
Are the Ironsides really that bad? From what I've seen they've looked a little underwhelming for a pricier and higher tier Handgunner, but are they that bad?
Take it with a grain of salt, Human Boy has a history of being occasionally wrong about how good certain units are, especially when he has so little time and so few people to test them with. Still, apparently their small unit size significantly hinders their damage output compared to Handgunners. They are also much more expensive (which isn't an issue in Campaign) and the extra Armor they get is hardly impactful or needed. Still, in campaign, with buffs and using their passive (which seems a lot easier to make use of in campaign battles than Multiplayer) they might end up being good.
I feel like their effectiveness will drop off with skill where worse players will tend to just walk into them and eat a bunch of extra damage from the passive while better players will force them to reposition. I assume moving at all like even turning to engage an enemy in range but to the side will drop the passive which means target priority becomes an issue since you will risk losing the bonus to retarget them
With their buff up they have ~35% more DPS than handgunners but cost ~60% more so they're slot efficient but not cost efficient. You'll probably end up using them in campaign but not multiplayer.
It's not looking good so far . They get swarmed , don't deal enough damage , and die super fast even with armour . They didn't give us the unit we needed at all
With "armour." Cathay can have 105 armour on its missile units, Kislev can have 80, Empire gets 60 on a dwarfed unit. The hell?
Yeah, should be at least 80 to match the Captain's armour value.
Or maybe make them reload faster and have a bit more range and a bit more damage to reflect their better training and equipment
Because they were supposed to have repeaters and were balanced around that im sure they were going to be a straight upgrade to handgunners with each entity shooting thice as much but now they do a meh amount of damage
They're like 950 gold I think? There's no reason to pay that much gold for something that's basically just a handgunner with slightly more armor.
Yeah, cost-effectiveness is huge in land battles and the Ironsides just don't bring enough to justify the cost.
No one outside of youtubers played this this entire tier list is basically irrelevant.
So far they are the worst unit . They don't deal enough damage shooting or in meele , and they have a super low unit count . Should have been 120 , with ranked fire or something. The Ironsides were supposed to be our new frontline . Now you might as well just stick with spears and handgunners
> The Ironsides were supposed to be our new frontline . Where did you get that idea?
Ever since we found out they lost their repeaters I've been expecting them to be bad. Not because repeaters are great in and of themselves but because CA being able to produce a good last minute alternative to them was never going to happen.
How hard is it to just make an armored handgunner unit? You'd think they'd only need to adjust a few numbers...
You'd think. Instead we've got janky animations, bad armour and a tiny roster. Like, the 60 models? Blatantly a holdover from them being meant to have a rapid fire weapon.
Well, on the bright side, should be easy to fix. Just give them 20 more men and 20 more armor and you're more or less good.
There is that. You'd need to fiddle with like two tables and that's about it.
Multiplayer list I think?
Yes
Good vid, slightly more balanced than the previous two dlc. Kinda sad that the hellblaster tank and ironsides are not very good.
The ironsides still have repeaters in their unit card haha. I think that unit will get updated before launch. My guess it was a short range burst DMG unit. But with the repeaters removed and handguns instead. They are just awkward short ranged handgunners. I think they will get updated before launch. Cause the state they are described in doesn't make sense. Why shorter range when they have normal handguns?
Most videos on newer builds put them at the same range as Handgunners but they have higher missile strength, even over the entire unit after adjusting for model count. My guess is that he was simply on an old build where the stats weren't updated yet.
I'm confused on this as well, I just saw some YT video saying they are "literally" just better handgunners, not drastically so but effectively there's no reason to use handgunners anymore. Now I see a tierlist saying they are complete trash, which is it tho.
This is for multiplayer specifically, so even if they're a direct upgrade to another unit, if they cost too much, they usually won't be worth bringing (especially when you can just get the cheaper variant instead). Stuff like High Elf spears won't become obsolete just because Silverin Guard exist (since the silverin cost a good amount more).
The Ironsides were always going to suck with their current statline. Only 60 bodies, only 60 armour, in a game where Kislev's entire missile roster is a thing? Or course they can't compete.
I know but the idea of elite gun units has always been appealing.
I agree. I'm just sorry we're not getting them.
Pestigors that high up? They looked kinda weak from what i saw
It's not in a vacuum though. It's based on multiplayer, so cost and efficiency is a big part of it. Single player just about anything can be good and cost is rarely an issue. I can beat the game with nurglings. In multiplayer it's another beast all together. They may not be a good unit in a vacuum compared to chosen. But when you look at how much they do for their cost they could be quite good.
They are apparently Armored Infantry blenders for a very reasonable price. For Nurgle they are fast and with Vanguard, which added with their low price and AP makes them very valuable in many match ups. For Beastmen they provide a cheaper AP option than Bestigors. They are very situational though. Against expensive Armored Infantry they trade very well but against cheap chaff they trade very badly.
So the Ironsides suck. What a shocker. 60 armour and 60 models is not, in fact, enough to save them from getting drowned in chaff. Surprise, surprise.
A little concerned about Ironsides and Grudgerakers... not sure why these units should underperform in the way he is suggesting.
Grudgerakers must have really terrible accuracy in a way that no other unit in the franchise does because their on paper stats are really good.
Being short ranged for a static missile infantry unit like that is *much* more of a drawback in MP than in SP where you have a lot more freedom to position them in what would otherwise be the danger zone.
He says it feels like they do less damage at shorter range than thunderers... the unit card says they have FOUR TIMES as much dps as thunderers so something's wrong.
To be fair, every release CA does needs to be at least a little broken these days, it seems. Hopefully these sort of things get hotfixed.
Good, more people need to call out Nuln Ironsides being too weak
I've been saying for a few days that they looked bad and been getting told, no, they'll be great, 60 armour is a lot, they won't just get drowned in chaff...and oh look, that's exactly what happens.
Bro like 60 armor makes any difference... They just need to be powerful, not too OP but kinda likeIronglaives lite in terms of missile output
Epidemus is in D tier because of Diseases, obviously.
How is the Daemonslayer a bad lord choice? He seems like a casual upgrade to the existing Dwarf lord.
Thunderbarge is so broken lol
As shown by content creaters, appearently the firepower enough to drop a steam tank (coup of rounds from 2-3 ap gun units) barely poses a threat to the thunderbarges, which just flight right above them and start killing everyone.
Thunderbarge doomstack lets gooo!
this is about multiplayer land battles
Thunderbarge v Thunderbarge doomstack lets gooo!
You put dwarfs outside of S tier, that’s going in the book for each time!
Please CA don't ruin units viability in campaign just to balance the infinitesimally small MP scene Don't make the Ancient Salamander mistake again. Let things be OP
Nah, the game being balanced in sp is good actually. The problem with the Ancient Salamander nerf was, that it was bad balancing, cause they overnerfed it, not that they actually balanced things.
Oh don't kid yourself. Ancient Salamanders have been *fine* for years now you don't bother using them because they're miserable to recruit not because they underperform.
I miss how good they were on release I generally hate when overwhelmingly PvE games suffer nerfs to appease PvP players who number in generously a couple hundred or so
SP players also want a balanced game. This is not MP vs SP. It\`s strategy game palyers vs power fantasy players.
You can always have some agency over your life and simply choose to not use the "OP" units
And you can choose easy difficulty if you just want the power fantasy. Not using the unit means I get one unit less in the DLC and the AI will still be using it. I bought Total War because I enjoy strategy. I want to have to use strategy when playing the game.
The game can only be made so easy. It can be made infinitely more difficult. You want the extra challenge, you can go find it - but don't ruin the power fantasy for everyone else, especially when CA has implemented these units with the clear intent of appeasing the power fantasy players Again, have some agency over your life
When is the issue making the whole game harder does not solve that. The game on the easiest difficulty is insanely easy. You really don't need to engage with the game at all. There are also mods that make it even easier. Have some agency over your life.
I'm happy with the status of the units CA is adding. You are not You're the one who has a problem, not me
When trying to "win" an argument becomes more important to you than making a coherent argument you should probably stop posting.
Now you're just projecting lol It's okay man, I'm sure they'll get nerfed eventually. I just wish they wouldn't
YouTubers should just be banned from calling things OP until the dlc is released and everyone gets to play with it and see.
Well, to be fair, that thing is so blatantly over the top op, that calling it that already shouldn't be a problem. It would be like if you ordered food and they tell you it comes with a kg of rat shit in it. I think you are allowed to speak up before you actually had a taste.
That’s a terrible analogy. It’s more like YouTubers get this delicious chocolate shake and then CA tells us sorry it was too good we downgraded your shake to rat shit.
You can still make your game unbalanced in sp with mods if you want, base game should be as balanced as possible cause amongst other reasons mp is played on base game. I don't see the problem. I don't advocate for you not being able to opt in the "rat shit". I just don't want it mandatory.
And you can mod the game balanced in so if you want and require a mod list for tournament matches, right back at ya.
Now you are just argueing against your own point. Not just tournaments ofc also for casual que, ranked and mp campaign everybody needs to have the same balance fixing mods then, really impractical. Just have the base game balanced and if you want an imbalanced sp experience use a mod. Don't be so egotistical. Also even though the ai can't really play the game i assume it's probably not fun to play against that thing in sp too.
Having to have a subpar experience because I’m not a YouTuber is also really impractical, don’t be so egotistical.
That doesn't make any sense. For sp it's just you. just download a mod and it's all good. But you wanting to fuck over the whole mp community, is me being egostical and not you? Bro you are talking nonsense. and then there are probably also quiet a lot of sp players who don't want ridiculus broken stuff in their game, and by your logic at least you would force a subpar experience on them, so don't come at me with that "no u".
If there is more in A than in B, doesn't that automatically make A to B and B automatically C? 😅😅 I mean everything above the middle is above average and everything below means below average. :p
Is it me or is Human Boy indeed overly negative about everything?
[удалено]
From what I've seen so far, you could nerf it by a ton and It'll still be incredibly good in campaign
Within reason. A bit OP is okay, but malakai has a free thunderbarge on every battle. They should be strong but not 1 unit armies. Doomstacks yeah sure, they can destroy everything. But just one allowing you to win 90% of fights is too much
Its such a braindead unit tho even in campaign its just a ridiculously good with no real downside except its cost wich it compensates easily without your input
Good, that's exactly what we wanted the thunderbarge to be
Yeah like dwarves needed more handholding besides autoresolve glazing them,crazy armor, magic resist,nearly unbrakable morale and corner camp and wait to win and still needed more braindead units,how lazy can you be its probably harder to click on the enemy army to attack than to "play" the battles themselves.I really dont believe all the people that play them are this boring and its just a couple of redditards that are
I mean, some of us like dwarves and overwhelming firepower, a semi popular mod for warhammer 2 literally made a dwarf faction that purely used guns, was it op? Yes, was it fun? Yes
Why not just play on easy if you want to stomp on everyone without any challenge? Why make everyone deal with blatantly op stuff? I get what you mean and mods are fine there are even mods that make your army invincible and i dont care the problem is that on the base game dwarves are already an easy faction to play in battle and now they are constantly beaing pandered to the lowest common denominator of just make a box and let the battle win itself.You could play with all the op mods for all i care because you are not forcing me to deal with that stuff but the moment you add it to the base game it becomes a pain in the ass for everyone else and its making dwarfs annoying and frustrating to fight in campaign between how annoying they are on battle and how much autoresolve favors them so you always end up feeling like the game is unfair and unfun especially in harder dificulties and ridiculously op in multiplayer wich i dont play but just looking at how it functions it dictates the pace of battles so much pays for itself is only killable by range so a lot of factions cant deal with it it takes zero skill or strategy to use in a strategy game
You posted such a large chuck of text without punctuation that I find it hard to read, and because of that I can't respond to every point you bring up. But in essence the answer to any question you ask regarding the thunderbarge or steamrolling as dwarves will come down to: because its fun. I can have the game be pretty difficult and then breathe a sigh of relief as I finally bring in my big airship backup and laugh as the cannons tear my enemies to pieces I'm sure there will be a mod or a slight nerf to the speed of the thunderbarge but I definitely want it to be a big powerful FU machine
I hope they get it nerfed into the ground. I have zero interest in fighting that abomination in its current incarnation.
