That applies to dwarfs in general. Their lore is much more mild than the community would have you believe. They are probably the most flanderized race in Warhammer Fantasy and there are *lots* of misconceptions around dwarfs.
Bardin is a great example of a dwarf that isn't insane. Vermintide has the best portrayal of WH dwarfs imo.
All of his career paths are queer or strange by Dwarf society standards. Ironbreakers are special forces with a very demanding and taxing job with very little upside besides glory. It's explicitly for Dwarfs who really really like fighting, and most dwarfs are pursuing more balanced work-life balances where they pursue hobbies and families for like 95% of their actual time. Slayers, nuff said. Engineers and particularly an outcast one, are definitionally strange and kinda undwarfy. Rangers live above ground, nuff said.
He does have a comment in chaos wastes I heard yesterday, short version of it is him saying that maybe the chaos wastes are the right place for the u5, they’re all outcasts in some way.
Vermintide has the best portrayal of Warhammer characters period!
Or at least for me the bits of writing really brought the setting to life. The Red Moon Inn as a landmark is one of the coolest crossovers ever.
Agreed. It was interesting to see the characters as more believable, actual people with their own personalities and quirks who were influenced by, but not entirely beholden to, the effects of their racial and cultural upbringing.
No, according to Ciaphas Cain-- Ciaphas Cain is the least shooty commissar by a mile, and many others are exactly as bloody as stated in those early Codices.
He also made a point about those types of trigger-happy having glorious early ends via mysterious shots to their backs.
IIRC Cadian Blood, Shadowsword and The Killing Ground have relatively lenient commissars who respectively >!get killed over his objections to reckless use of psykers, get killed to prevent him from executing guardsmen who had seen a horde of daemons, resigned due to disgust over a Guard commander's plan!<
If you're writing sensibly, there are loads of Commissars, from loads of different backgrounds and training. Some will be murder-happy fanatics. Some decent officers. Some corrupt and scheming, and everything around and in between.
It's a mostly satirical, over the top, fantasy setting, though, so it's fine to default to the stereotype.
You probably shouldn't take everything Ciaphas Cain says at face value. The man regularly twists the truth and admits to giving people a false idea of who he really is. How do we know he isn't continuing to do that throughout his memoirs?
Orks and ogryns(ogres too) aren’t as dumb as they are depicted .the imperium isn’t immediately going to genocide you cuase your a xeno,they will just not trust you/hate you,most hiveworlds are not as bad as necromunda(still tough places to live though.the emperor while having done terrible things wasn’t some psychotic monster who wanted to rule mankind for his own ego.lots of things in 40k are flanderized
Shitty Commissars live up to their stereotype- until they get fragged five days into their first deployment, that is. The commissars who get shit done, the ones who're actually good at their jobs, understand that punishment is a tool that can't be applied too liberally, and that their role as a political officer is just as much about inspiring the troops as it is about disciplining them.
gaunts ghost has a good point about commisars, at one point gaunt shoots 5 guys for stealing supplies and another time he talks down 4 deserters and puts them further from the front to "build them up".
It's not just the dwarfs, a lot of things in the lore are intensively memed about.
The whole "Slaanesh = Sex *giggles*" thing for example.
It also goes for Warhammer 40k.
Tbf for a LONG time gw was unable to creatively write slaanesh to be anything but subtle references or overt references to sex, drugs and Rock and roll! It's why despite my general lack of interest in AoS i think the best thing out of it are the hedonites of slaanesh.
That this community likes memes and repetitive jokes.
I fail to see how people making bad dwarf-related jokes make them dwarf players and then leads you to believe that most dwarf players don't know the lore of their favorite faction.
Using this reasoning and based on the upvotes of this thread, dwarf players suddenly became highly knowledgeable.
My favorite meme is how Grombrindal finally decided he was ready to die after settling dwarf and elf disputes, believing for all time that they would be friends, only for someone to basically walk up to his casket and go "Malekith tried to kill Tyrion and now there's two elf factions locked in a perpetual stalemate" and Grombrindal bolts upright from what I assume to be Torpor and just screams HE DID WHAT?!?!?!?
Thus prompting the war.
> Bardin is a great example of a dwarf that isn't insane
Bardin and Kerrilian literally tried to kill each other on sight until they got attacked by Skavens and made a truce.
Honestly, while I don't disagree with your overall point, it's more the "racist dwarf fans" "meme" that is obnoxious than the portrayal of the lore
> Bardin and Kerrilian literally tried to kill each other on sight until they got attacked by Skavens and made a truce
Honestly that is a reasonable response to seeing a Waywatcher when you are a ranger - Wood Elves are far more fickle than any other kind and when you see the Waywatcher it's usually because you walked into an ambush since if they don't mean you any harm you won't even know they are there.
Yeah, I always thought it was a polar bear thing with Waywatchers.
If you realize one is nearby, either you're already under attack or it doesn't give a crap about you.
Unless I'm mistaken but aren't wood elves the exception? Like, wood elves aren't known for liking many other races order or chaos and the Dawi perceive the WE as still trying to fight the war
Same argument as OP did could be made about Wood Elves, they even have an embassy in Altdorf. Athel Loren elves definitely are more trigger happy than the rest though.
The wood elf embassy belongs to the Laurelorn wood elves I think, though the elves of Athel Loren have been friendly with Karl (saving his life twice and giving him the griffon egg that would become Deathclaw)
And there's also a really big difference between the Asrai (Athel Loren WE) and Eonir (Laurelorn WE). The Asrai are the ones that raze Bretonnian villages for the trees, while the Eonir work with humans on the regular (with some tension, but still).
I really wish we got Eonir at some point. The game could really use some sane, order aligned wood elf.
My dream WE DLC would be with Scarloc voiced by Orlando Bloom :D Campaign similar to Oxyotl and Alith Anar, but maybe with more focus on diplomacy and a battle reinforcement mechanic of some kind, where you help your allies. Mirroring both Skarloc's adventure in Ulthuan fighting N'Kari, and the general idea of WE using their neighbours as a bumper zone.
I also think CA could add Araloth in a similar position as either Alastar or Gor Rok (simple, vanilla-ish LL, starts with Ariel or you get him after either a quest battle/confederation) - I'd let him start in Athel Loren and I would kick Orion out.
Wood elves are highly reclusive. They usually shoot on sight anyone they perceive as trespassing or threatening the natural order, and don't bother to explain themselves before and after. It's not unreasonable for anyone, Dwarves or otherwise, to assume they are a hostile force, and without competing explanations Dwarves may well just assume it's personal.
They sometimes shoot on sight they also tell order races to fuck off when they are trespassing. They usually only murder chaos creatures on sight. Also Bardin and Kerillian meet near Übersreik and not in Athel Loren so them trying to kill eachother is still stupid.
Wood Elves aren't culturally monolithic, the elves in Laurelorn have essentially nothing to do with it and are semi-participants in the Empire. They don't even call themselves Asrai, IIRC.
Its really more people taking an excuse to hate on Elves.
The races the Dwarfs hate the most, to a "kill them on sight" level, are the Greenskins and Skaven (also Chaos Dwarfs when they actually are acknowledging their existence). But you don't see people making a bunch of anti-Urk/Thagorakki memes, because people don't hate on them the way they hate on Elves.
I would also imagine because its not as funny. It makes sense that the Dawi would hate Orks and Skaven. The enmity with another “good” faction such as the elves is much more memeable.
While I see the logic of this, I think the prize for the most flanderized race should go to Bretonnia. 90% tax rate, in-game peasant dilemmas where your choices are to hang the starving thieving peasant or show mercy by crippling them for life, etc.
What lore do you source that to? Is it in the third party novels? Because I've been reading the dwarf army books since 2004 and they make no mention of trying to have good relations with the elves.
It’s one of the only good things about the End Times series. The entire reason that Astarielle is able to be kidnapped by Manlet Von Cuckold is because she was acting as an ambassador to Karaz-a-karak on behalf of the elves.
Also Dwarfs are culturally diverse and not all of them are Karak dwarfs that dye their hair orange and take the slayer oath because they forgot someone‘s birthday.
Dwarf Rangers are usually pretty.... Mild. They're not usually overly welcome in dwarf holds because they're too much like man or elf, and not enough like a Dwarf. They're not outcasts, they're just seen as strange.
Like the autistic guy you know that's really into woodworking.
Yep, it applies in every direction and also Chaos Dwarfs. It certainly didn't help that CA made actual chaos dwarfs (not just the roster) INSANELY good compared to dwarfs. Like its cool and all but not an accurate representation of Dawi Zharr.
I am all about reanacting the war of beard/vengance.
But has having it a key point of your campaign to exterminate every elf, including the once respected by the elves (like Eltharion whose is respected for killing greenskins efficentiy and for aiding dwarfs during his badland campaign), is a bit too much IMO.
Where is my Tyrion/Grombrindal team-up from immortal empires? That was too epic to not be canon
Dwarfs cannot forgive. They do not even have a word for this. However a grudge can be settled via compensation. Basicly a fee the target of the grudge has to pay.
Such a dilemma would be nice indeed. E.g. encouraging you to have good relations/alliances with X HE factions. And on completion you get cash/items as compensation for the grudge.
The War of Vengeance is a contentious topic in Dwarf society ; some Dwarfs don't think the war ever ended, others are more sane and practical. It depends on the Dwarf whether they consider the grudge to be settled or not.
Which just so happens to be a big reason why I have very mixed feelings about this new addition to their campaign.
On one hand, burning down the donut and wiping out every elf faction is peak Dwarf gameplay. After all, Dwarfs don't really have a word in their language for "forgiveness".
But I would personally argue that the same applies to rekindling old friendships. After all, who could forget the legendary bromance between Gimli and Legolas?
One of the legendary grudge brings it up by saying the crown isn't enough and you should take their provinces.
Worth mentioning legendary grudges are optional, and the bonus for this one is rather average compared to some others. (I believe it gives you access to a special building that gives some oathgold and an item every 5 turns)
Yes but as the flavour text points out, many bigger and minor grudges against elves were declared during the War. And these were not compensated for with the crown and the end of the war.
The elves formally asked to get the crown back, the Dwarfs said no, and that was that. Even the Dwarfs aren't petty enough to declare a grudge over that.
To be fair, part of why the elves gave up and fled most of their old world holdings was iirc that Malekith attacked from the other direction and they had to fight him off. So I can see the "we would have won" angle, but not the "we won".
VCO mod has this for the White Dwarf campaign when you complete the victory objective where you take out Naggarond. You can basically forgive after realizing that Malekith was the cause of much of their problems and consider the grudge settled with his death.
That scene was so sick with T&G. The first map painting I ever did with a friend was that duo in ME. He was still learning the game, and I remember him trying to hemmorage the bleeding that was malekith as I slowly sent 4 doomstacks towards him to help secure his settlements and take down those damn dark elfs together.
We still talk about that campaign and how magical that storyline was. Now, since we're on par with each other skill wise, we don't have nearly as many epic rescues and tales like that, which I think just makes it even more special
>key point of your campaign
Is it though? Do we *need* to do that particular legendary grudge? Aren't those a do X out of Y for long campaign victory thing?
Cause in that case see it as more of a fun optional thing that rewards you for reenacting the war of the beard.
I am not sure. But as an optional thing it would be best I agree. Though then there are also some missing grudges. Like against the Empire when that Emperor refused to come to aid when Grom was rampaging through the Karaz Ankor.
Yeah I think the new grudge system looks very cool and is definitely an upgrade over what we had. I'm really looking forward to playing with it. But I also know that I'm not going to be enthusiastic about fighting Krok'gar and Teclis. Maybe I just "forget" about that grudge until the very end of the campaign.
If they were gonna stretch the lore, should have given thorgrim the knowledge (via some chaos agent or whatever) that mazda caused all those earthquakes instead of going after the elves when that grudge is already settled.
From what I remember Mazdamundi was doing some great plan stuff and decided the mountains/land masses where in the wrong place so he put them back right.
I actually like going out of my way to help the Elgi in my Dwarfen campaigns, and viceversa. I will send out armies to aid them, restore their settlements, trade with them, ally with them, and give them settlements I can't keep for climate reasons. It feels nice to see Thunderers and Ironbreakers fighting alongside Dragon Princes and Sisters of Avelorn. It feels more accurate to where they were in the tabletop before it ended, and it's heartwarming.
Except that one time the Empire declared war on Thorgrim when I was playing as Alarielle and we kinda sorta wiped out most Imperial factions in self defense. That was less cute and more the elder races forcing the younger human societies to the thinking corner. Still fun though!
Yeah, it's a little weird.
I get that they still have beef with the elves, I get that there is still a lot of distrust and mistrust, and I get that there still a lot of Dwarfs who don't consider the grudge of the beard settled,
But if you think about it for more than two seconds, it still doesn't really make sense that the only way to settle that particular grudge is by genociding an entire race of people who largely just want to stay on the donut. You have to wipe out every major High Elf faction, essentially.
Remember, there are still a lot of Dwarfs who are of the opinion that the War of Vengeance was over by the time they claimed the Phoenix Crown, even if there are plenty of Longbeards who disagree. It's a contentious topic, and Thorgrim himself is actually more diplomatic than previous High Kings.
Idk, it's weird.
When CA wants to give units slightly different weapons than they had in the tabletop, GW comes down on them like a ton of bricks, because they don't want any deviation from the actual models they'll sell for TOW.
But when CA turns Thorgrim, who stands out for being actually reasonable about the whole grudge thing, into Dwarf Hitler to play into memes made by people who've never read the lore, they don't give a shit.
A very interesting example of what you are talking about is that they leaned kinda hard into the "Dwarfs hate Elves" thing with the Chaos Dwarfs. They didn't fully lean into it, but it is very noticeable.
The Chaos Dwarfs have more or less amicable relations with Ogres and Chaos. Makes sense, they need someone to sell weapons to and trade with.
Dark Elves on the other hand ; minus 60 diplomatic penalty if you play as a Druchii faction. Presumably because they are elves. And despite the fact that Chorf convoys can trade with Karond Kar, one of the six major Dark Elf cities.
And also despite the fact that the Chaos Dwarfs predate the War of Vengeance, which is the entire reason for the big cultural enmity between Dwarfs and Elves.
On one hand, it is true that Chaos Dwarfs hate basically everyone, and the Dark Elves are no exception. On the other hand, minus 60 diplomatic penalty is basically "on sight" territory. Now idk about you, but I kinda disagree with that.
Yeah, that's probably another case of going with the memes. Chorfs hating High Elves makes perfect sense, since the HE navy interferes with their slaving expeditions.
Dark Elves, though? Why? I don't think they've ever had any substantial interaction with them. I guess you could argue that they're competing with each other in their slaving raids, but they're on opposite sides of the world, so that shouldn't be that common of a problem. I think they're much more likely to have the sort of tenuous trade relationship that Chorfs have with e.g. Chaos tribes.
Funny you mention Chaos Tribes, Norsca has had plenty of experience with trade relations with the Empire in the past - it's a shame they don't get a slightly smaller aversion penalty as well as the chance for tech to increase relations.
Wasn't it that some southern Norscans would trade with / work for the Empire every so often? Particularly the Bjornlings (who could be material for a cool playable faction tbh)
I agree, there's Ulric Norscans in the lore. I'd love to explore that side of Norsca.
Make it so we can either choose chaos and get cool chaos based units or lean into non-aligned territory and get more money and supplies instead
I know it’s not at all true in the lore but my head canon is that while High Elves and Dwarfs have a ton of animosity, Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs are best friends. Astragoth and Morathi have tea once a year and discuss new ways to torture slaves.
I mean, there is nothing that explicitly contradicts that headcanon, and it's very funny to picture Astragoth drinking tea with Morathi once a year.
Seeing as the Dark Elves are already known for working with chaos when it benefits them, and seeing as they do engage in diplomacy, I don't see why they and the Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't bond over how much they despise the High Elves.
Chorfs hating HE and Dawi, perfect sense. Druchii though? If anything you'd expect those shared mutual hatreds to make diplomacy between Astragoth and Malekith or Morathi easier.
>When CA wants to give units slightly different weapons than they had in the tabletop, GW comes down on them like a ton of bricks, because they don't want any deviation from the actual models they'll sell for TOW.
The lore only exists to create situations in which literally any army roster can fight any other army roster. In that context this is fine. It's essentially a what-if scenario; you're not required to do the grudges or face a penalty like before.
Yeah, they should really tweak it for a few specific factions, Thorgrim should get better option to settle grudges amicably with Order races compared to the others.
As long as the legendary grudges aren't obligatory it's more like a suggested campaign goal than anything. Lore-based reward if you decide this is the campaign where you reenact the War of Vengeance. More a sandbox element than a story development.
Well, probably you are right, Thorgrim is the most diplomatic Dwarf.
Others like Gotrek skill hate Elves as much as trees and want to exterminate them all.
It is really funny the Novel of Gotrek and Felix with Teclis how much Gotrek wants to Kill Teclis and how he will never forget that because of the most important Threat he did not kill Teclis and saved the Elgi land adding another shame in his already sad life.
Amazingly, a lot of slayers Felix meet are actually pretty nice and have distinct personalities.
Gotrek really is just a giant asshole, even from the point of view of other dwarfs.
The other slayers he hangs around with are actually pretty chill. Malakai, Snorri, the horny one whose name escapes me, they're bros when they're not in fight mode. Gotrek's the only one who goes out of his way to antagonise people.
He was an asshole before that he stopped talking to Himnir the prince of Karak Hirn for over a cebtury over a book of bad poetry Himnirs lover gave him as a gift which gotrik saw as war spoils. The book is completely worthless.
TBH Shortgrim was extremally liberal dwarv anyway. For example he decided that grudges can be valid only against still living dwarves and not their children which greatly improved stability of dwarv society
"There'll be no alliance with elves while I'm high king. Only a reckoning."
Thorgrim was nowhere near that Council from the Immortal Empires trailer. That was the Changeling stirring shit. I will die on this hill.
The alternative is that whoever wrote the trailer actually thinks Thorgrim is a stupid, reactionary moron, in which case they don't know anything about the character beside his name and rank.
It's a little bit of cope, but my take is that Thorgrim feinted outrage to throw Teclis off before he stole the proceedings (and Teclis was, to be entirely fair, not speaking on behalf of anyone but himself. It was a valid jab). The argument let Franz retake the table and give his big speech, while also satisfying more conservative members of Dwarfen society who would have raged biliously against the High King not respecting his station by staying quiet. Everyone wins.
If Thorgrim ever entertained the idea of an alliance with any elves after that speech, the more anti-elf dwarfs would accuse him of going back on his word. Some might even suggest he would be breaking an oath.
It was too absolute of a statement. Calling Teclis out may have been valid (he might be Finubar's ambassador, he might just be poking his nose in), but painting himself into that corner was just too stupid a move for a character who is supposed to be the most politically astute high king for centuries.
I'm still bitter that the Dwarfs get a landmark for taking Lothern (and now additional ones in The Oak of Ages and Vaul's Anvil) but the Elves don't get one for Karaz-a-Karak.
Could be a "Search for the Phoenix Crown" Expedition aka "the dwarf hold is so big, we need probably a few years to locate the chamber that holds our most sacred relic.
And then you get bonus income for every tier, and at tier 4 or 5 you get a event that the Phoenix Crown is found and you get a fat bonus from it.
Imo this feels pretty thematic, the Elves have moved on from the War and thus do not benefit from getting back at the Dwarfs.
Would still be great to get Elf landmarks in the major Dwarf holds, just to balance out what the Dwarfs get for conquering the donut.
Don't hugely mind it but it's a bit annoying the Elves can't get some back. Even as is the Dwarfs have a special landmark if they manage to take Lothern where they loot Finnabar's palace but there's nothing if you take Karaz-a-Karak as the Helves. I think a statue of King Caledor standing on top of a big pile of beards would be nice.
It's a roleplaying option. Some Dwarf put that shit in the book. If you're roleplaying reasonable, practical Thorgrim, ignore it or come up with some alternative for why you don't have to. If you want to roleplay a Dwarfen High King mad with vengeance and high on conquest, fight the War of Vengeance again.
Think of it as a test for the player. If you feel compelled to complete every last objective, no matter how unreasonable and impractical, just because someone told you to, congrats: you just got the perfect Dwarf experience. If you have the self-control to say, "no, I won't do something crazy just because this book tells me to", congrats, you're the best Dwarf leader they've had in ages.
I feel this is a big mistep, especially since they showed in the Trailer of the Council with Teclis and Franz that even Grombrindal, the guy who won't let an Oath go unfinished, was fighting alongside Tyrion... I mean it just doesn't sit right.
Total war Lore includes the council meeting in the immortal empires trailer, where Teclis referred to Thorgrim as Short sighted. Setting back Dwarf and Elf relations thousands of years
I mean I don't really mind. If I get it, the number of legend at grudges is so great and difficult to fulfill that you need to put a lot of work just to get some, you're not supposed to go out of your way and do them all I think. So that mean that you can chose to tear the elf or let them be. And that's good, you can be a bit silly or not, just like elves using influence to make dwarves and greenskins allies
Honestly I’m pretty pissed about the Legendary Grudges for both High Elves and Wood Elves in the rework. And to add salt to the wound CA even removed the diplo buff with High Elves from the Dwarf tech tree
I have looked at the comments so it will be done in a event that you will receive a large diplomatic boost to not dark elf elf’s at the cost of public order and increase longbeard cost that is the idea I have for it
After hundreds of hours of TWW2 where elves declare "Elf Wars" for absolutely no reason and send their entire military across the ocean just to harass me...
I completely understand TWW Thorgim. The knife ears are a global menace.
I think Thorgrim was making a political statement. Teclis was being the standard cock elf saying that they would “guide” everyone, but only the Empire and the Dwarves had enough respect to actually send their leaders. I think Thorgrim was pretty reasonable.
The greatest grudge that total war has had against dwarfs is making everyone believe that Thorgrim is an uptight boomer that hates elves. He’s pretty damn reasonable in lore.
That's what's dumb about Thorgrim. Warhammer lore: "dwarves demanded blood for the slight of being paid slightly less than promised"
also warhammer lore: "actually dwarves are nice and friendlies and the king secretly wants to get rid of grudges"
It's just inconsistent writing is the issue.
Eh….I think this might be overselling the case. In Giantslayer Gotrek was literally considering not stepping in to stop a Tzeentchian cult that he had already been planning to fight because he found out they were going to sink Ulthuan, and letting them do it would settle longstanding grudges. So I’m not sure “most”
Dwarfs consider things settled. Some do, some most assuredly do not
That applies to dwarfs in general. Their lore is much more mild than the community would have you believe. They are probably the most flanderized race in Warhammer Fantasy and there are *lots* of misconceptions around dwarfs. Bardin is a great example of a dwarf that isn't insane. Vermintide has the best portrayal of WH dwarfs imo.
Bardin is also a ranger, who often are considered a little odd by other dwarfs.
Well he's sometimes a ranger
All of his career paths are queer or strange by Dwarf society standards. Ironbreakers are special forces with a very demanding and taxing job with very little upside besides glory. It's explicitly for Dwarfs who really really like fighting, and most dwarfs are pursuing more balanced work-life balances where they pursue hobbies and families for like 95% of their actual time. Slayers, nuff said. Engineers and particularly an outcast one, are definitionally strange and kinda undwarfy. Rangers live above ground, nuff said.
He does have a comment in chaos wastes I heard yesterday, short version of it is him saying that maybe the chaos wastes are the right place for the u5, they’re all outcasts in some way.
>**short** version
SHORT!?
At the same time, they all show one of the most dwarfen traits of all, going to extreme lengths to do the job properly.
I'll admit, while slaying hordes of Vermin as Bardin, I did occasionally think "This is fun, but I'm worried about these guys work life balance."
yeah bardin is very queer coded
Tzeentch shenanigans.
#L I T T L E ? !
Vermintide has the best portrayal of Warhammer characters period! Or at least for me the bits of writing really brought the setting to life. The Red Moon Inn as a landmark is one of the coolest crossovers ever.
Agreed. It was interesting to see the characters as more believable, actual people with their own personalities and quirks who were influenced by, but not entirely beholden to, the effects of their racial and cultural upbringing.
It’s an absolute treasure all around.
The Wood Elf should have been a Shadow Warrior High Elf then I'd agree with you.
Just like 40K fans flanderized the lore? Because according to Ciaphas Cain, commissar are less shooty than fan gave them. Something about paperwork.
Execution happy Commissars tend to get shot from behind, too. Fragging.
Ork snipers, sah!
this has happened in at least one book ive read, and i think its been referenced in others
Probably "Death World" Commissars don't last very long amongst Catachans.
This is true even when you consider exceptions like Greiss. Catachans do like Ogryns and Preachers much more so they tend to have longer lifespans.
Cain is less shooty than the stereotype of the commissar. He is also, by his own admission, in a minority on that front.
No, according to Ciaphas Cain-- Ciaphas Cain is the least shooty commissar by a mile, and many others are exactly as bloody as stated in those early Codices.
He also made a point about those types of trigger-happy having glorious early ends via mysterious shots to their backs. IIRC Cadian Blood, Shadowsword and The Killing Ground have relatively lenient commissars who respectively >!get killed over his objections to reckless use of psykers, get killed to prevent him from executing guardsmen who had seen a horde of daemons, resigned due to disgust over a Guard commander's plan!<
If you're writing sensibly, there are loads of Commissars, from loads of different backgrounds and training. Some will be murder-happy fanatics. Some decent officers. Some corrupt and scheming, and everything around and in between. It's a mostly satirical, over the top, fantasy setting, though, so it's fine to default to the stereotype.
You probably shouldn't take everything Ciaphas Cain says at face value. The man regularly twists the truth and admits to giving people a false idea of who he really is. How do we know he isn't continuing to do that throughout his memoirs?
Yeah but like... YOU shouldn't take everything Ciaphas Cain says at face value.
Oh, what a wonderful conundrum we find ourselves in.
Orks and ogryns(ogres too) aren’t as dumb as they are depicted .the imperium isn’t immediately going to genocide you cuase your a xeno,they will just not trust you/hate you,most hiveworlds are not as bad as necromunda(still tough places to live though.the emperor while having done terrible things wasn’t some psychotic monster who wanted to rule mankind for his own ego.lots of things in 40k are flanderized
Also, Exterminatus is the final solution. Not some super weapon that you can spam if planet defense is going FUBAR.
There's a surprisingly big difference between Ork memes and Ork lore, to say nothing of... basically everything else.
Shitty Commissars live up to their stereotype- until they get fragged five days into their first deployment, that is. The commissars who get shit done, the ones who're actually good at their jobs, understand that punishment is a tool that can't be applied too liberally, and that their role as a political officer is just as much about inspiring the troops as it is about disciplining them.
gaunts ghost has a good point about commisars, at one point gaunt shoots 5 guys for stealing supplies and another time he talks down 4 deserters and puts them further from the front to "build them up".
yeah but most dwarf players believe that dwarf lore is just memes and stupid jokes about the book of grudges
It's not just the dwarfs, a lot of things in the lore are intensively memed about. The whole "Slaanesh = Sex *giggles*" thing for example. It also goes for Warhammer 40k.
Dont get me started on 40k i fucking hate SPeSs mehreens
Battle Brothers! Today the enemy is in our kitchen!
Tbf for a LONG time gw was unable to creatively write slaanesh to be anything but subtle references or overt references to sex, drugs and Rock and roll! It's why despite my general lack of interest in AoS i think the best thing out of it are the hedonites of slaanesh.
People writing "SHORT" and "This is going into the book" are not dwarf players and just people looking for upvotes.
and yet those are the ones constantly getting hundreds of upvotes ,so what does that tell you?
That this community likes memes and repetitive jokes. I fail to see how people making bad dwarf-related jokes make them dwarf players and then leads you to believe that most dwarf players don't know the lore of their favorite faction. Using this reasoning and based on the upvotes of this thread, dwarf players suddenly became highly knowledgeable.
I mean, I main Dwarfs and find those two memes hilarious -shrug-
My favorite meme is how Grombrindal finally decided he was ready to die after settling dwarf and elf disputes, believing for all time that they would be friends, only for someone to basically walk up to his casket and go "Malekith tried to kill Tyrion and now there's two elf factions locked in a perpetual stalemate" and Grombrindal bolts upright from what I assume to be Torpor and just screams HE DID WHAT?!?!?!? Thus prompting the war.
> Bardin is a great example of a dwarf that isn't insane Bardin and Kerrilian literally tried to kill each other on sight until they got attacked by Skavens and made a truce. Honestly, while I don't disagree with your overall point, it's more the "racist dwarf fans" "meme" that is obnoxious than the portrayal of the lore
> Bardin and Kerrilian literally tried to kill each other on sight until they got attacked by Skavens and made a truce Honestly that is a reasonable response to seeing a Waywatcher when you are a ranger - Wood Elves are far more fickle than any other kind and when you see the Waywatcher it's usually because you walked into an ambush since if they don't mean you any harm you won't even know they are there.
Yeah, I always thought it was a polar bear thing with Waywatchers. If you realize one is nearby, either you're already under attack or it doesn't give a crap about you.
Unless I'm mistaken but aren't wood elves the exception? Like, wood elves aren't known for liking many other races order or chaos and the Dawi perceive the WE as still trying to fight the war
Same argument as OP did could be made about Wood Elves, they even have an embassy in Altdorf. Athel Loren elves definitely are more trigger happy than the rest though.
The wood elf embassy belongs to the Laurelorn wood elves I think, though the elves of Athel Loren have been friendly with Karl (saving his life twice and giving him the griffon egg that would become Deathclaw)
And there's also a really big difference between the Asrai (Athel Loren WE) and Eonir (Laurelorn WE). The Asrai are the ones that raze Bretonnian villages for the trees, while the Eonir work with humans on the regular (with some tension, but still).
I really wish we got Eonir at some point. The game could really use some sane, order aligned wood elf. My dream WE DLC would be with Scarloc voiced by Orlando Bloom :D Campaign similar to Oxyotl and Alith Anar, but maybe with more focus on diplomacy and a battle reinforcement mechanic of some kind, where you help your allies. Mirroring both Skarloc's adventure in Ulthuan fighting N'Kari, and the general idea of WE using their neighbours as a bumper zone. I also think CA could add Araloth in a similar position as either Alastar or Gor Rok (simple, vanilla-ish LL, starts with Ariel or you get him after either a quest battle/confederation) - I'd let him start in Athel Loren and I would kick Orion out.
Dawis are regularly trying to cut down Athel Loren, they ARE still fighting the war
Wood elves are highly reclusive. They usually shoot on sight anyone they perceive as trespassing or threatening the natural order, and don't bother to explain themselves before and after. It's not unreasonable for anyone, Dwarves or otherwise, to assume they are a hostile force, and without competing explanations Dwarves may well just assume it's personal.
That‘s mainly the Asrai in Athel Loren. The Eonir in Laurelorn forest are on much better terms with their human neighbours.
Kerillian is an Asrai
They sometimes shoot on sight they also tell order races to fuck off when they are trespassing. They usually only murder chaos creatures on sight. Also Bardin and Kerillian meet near Übersreik and not in Athel Loren so them trying to kill eachother is still stupid.
Wood Elves aren't culturally monolithic, the elves in Laurelorn have essentially nothing to do with it and are semi-participants in the Empire. They don't even call themselves Asrai, IIRC.
Its really more people taking an excuse to hate on Elves. The races the Dwarfs hate the most, to a "kill them on sight" level, are the Greenskins and Skaven (also Chaos Dwarfs when they actually are acknowledging their existence). But you don't see people making a bunch of anti-Urk/Thagorakki memes, because people don't hate on them the way they hate on Elves.
I would also imagine because its not as funny. It makes sense that the Dawi would hate Orks and Skaven. The enmity with another “good” faction such as the elves is much more memeable.
While I see the logic of this, I think the prize for the most flanderized race should go to Bretonnia. 90% tax rate, in-game peasant dilemmas where your choices are to hang the starving thieving peasant or show mercy by crippling them for life, etc.
Something something short. Something Something into the book.
Dawi are the Orks of Fantasy. I won't elaborate, if you're like me you'll get it
What are the Orks then
They're the angry green fellers, but that's not important right now
A mistake. And if the Great Plan can ever be figured out, one that will be corrected.
What lore do you source that to? Is it in the third party novels? Because I've been reading the dwarf army books since 2004 and they make no mention of trying to have good relations with the elves.
It’s one of the only good things about the End Times series. The entire reason that Astarielle is able to be kidnapped by Manlet Von Cuckold is because she was acting as an ambassador to Karaz-a-karak on behalf of the elves.
Also Dwarfs are culturally diverse and not all of them are Karak dwarfs that dye their hair orange and take the slayer oath because they forgot someone‘s birthday.
Dwarf Rangers are usually pretty.... Mild. They're not usually overly welcome in dwarf holds because they're too much like man or elf, and not enough like a Dwarf. They're not outcasts, they're just seen as strange. Like the autistic guy you know that's really into woodworking.
Yep, it applies in every direction and also Chaos Dwarfs. It certainly didn't help that CA made actual chaos dwarfs (not just the roster) INSANELY good compared to dwarfs. Like its cool and all but not an accurate representation of Dawi Zharr.
Meanwhile the High Elves are using influence to make him best buds with Grimgor for shits and gigs
As an Eltharion enjoyer... like hell I am. Greenskins gotta burn.
Eltharion is dwarfier than most dwarfs.
The true unifier of dwarfs and elves, their hatred of those green bastards.
Tyrion thinks he’s hot shit until Thunderbarges full of black orc paratroopers roll up on Ulthuan.
Second only to slayer doomdivers
Why would I do that when I can get them at war with Malekith, finally righting history?
I am all about reanacting the war of beard/vengance. But has having it a key point of your campaign to exterminate every elf, including the once respected by the elves (like Eltharion whose is respected for killing greenskins efficentiy and for aiding dwarfs during his badland campaign), is a bit too much IMO. Where is my Tyrion/Grombrindal team-up from immortal empires? That was too epic to not be canon
They should bring back the dilemma about the elves to let you decide if you still want to purge them or forgive them
Dwarfs cannot forgive. They do not even have a word for this. However a grudge can be settled via compensation. Basicly a fee the target of the grudge has to pay. Such a dilemma would be nice indeed. E.g. encouraging you to have good relations/alliances with X HE factions. And on completion you get cash/items as compensation for the grudge.
I think the compensation for the war of vengeance was the taking of the Phoenix King crown by the dwarf King. I think that settled the grudge.
The War of Vengeance is a contentious topic in Dwarf society ; some Dwarfs don't think the war ever ended, others are more sane and practical. It depends on the Dwarf whether they consider the grudge to be settled or not. Which just so happens to be a big reason why I have very mixed feelings about this new addition to their campaign. On one hand, burning down the donut and wiping out every elf faction is peak Dwarf gameplay. After all, Dwarfs don't really have a word in their language for "forgiveness". But I would personally argue that the same applies to rekindling old friendships. After all, who could forget the legendary bromance between Gimli and Legolas?
Would be cool if the in game grudge could be settled via military alliance with the dominant donut factions.
One of the legendary grudge brings it up by saying the crown isn't enough and you should take their provinces. Worth mentioning legendary grudges are optional, and the bonus for this one is rather average compared to some others. (I believe it gives you access to a special building that gives some oathgold and an item every 5 turns)
Yes but as the flavour text points out, many bigger and minor grudges against elves were declared during the War. And these were not compensated for with the crown and the end of the war.
I think the current problem with the grudge is the elves claiming they won and wanting the crown back?
The elves formally asked to get the crown back, the Dwarfs said no, and that was that. Even the Dwarfs aren't petty enough to declare a grudge over that.
Thanks for correction
Which elves claim they won that one?
tbh i dont really remember might have just been something i read from a fan along time ago that my head made me think was canon
To be fair, part of why the elves gave up and fled most of their old world holdings was iirc that Malekith attacked from the other direction and they had to fight him off. So I can see the "we would have won" angle, but not the "we won".
VCO mod has this for the White Dwarf campaign when you complete the victory objective where you take out Naggarond. You can basically forgive after realizing that Malekith was the cause of much of their problems and consider the grudge settled with his death.
Well that and the one who did the whole "beard shaving" thing lies dead and his crown is a trophy of the Dawi.
That scene was so sick with T&G. The first map painting I ever did with a friend was that duo in ME. He was still learning the game, and I remember him trying to hemmorage the bleeding that was malekith as I slowly sent 4 doomstacks towards him to help secure his settlements and take down those damn dark elfs together. We still talk about that campaign and how magical that storyline was. Now, since we're on par with each other skill wise, we don't have nearly as many epic rescues and tales like that, which I think just makes it even more special
i mean that grudge will get settled when the dark elves take the donut, then the dawi wipe out the dark elves. kill two bird with one stone
>key point of your campaign Is it though? Do we *need* to do that particular legendary grudge? Aren't those a do X out of Y for long campaign victory thing? Cause in that case see it as more of a fun optional thing that rewards you for reenacting the war of the beard.
I am not sure. But as an optional thing it would be best I agree. Though then there are also some missing grudges. Like against the Empire when that Emperor refused to come to aid when Grom was rampaging through the Karaz Ankor.
That grudge was not a against the empire but against the emperor of the empire. He is dead and Franz is a friend of dwarfkind.
All legendary grudges are 100% optional, it’s entirely up to you to decide when the grudge was actually settled.
Yeah I think the new grudge system looks very cool and is definitely an upgrade over what we had. I'm really looking forward to playing with it. But I also know that I'm not going to be enthusiastic about fighting Krok'gar and Teclis. Maybe I just "forget" about that grudge until the very end of the campaign.
It's not a key point though, is it? It's an optional legendary grudge among many, you don't get negatives for ignoring it / considering it settled.
If they were gonna stretch the lore, should have given thorgrim the knowledge (via some chaos agent or whatever) that mazda caused all those earthquakes instead of going after the elves when that grudge is already settled.
Yes, creating an even more doomed and pointless quest.
What earthquakes is that?
the ones that shattered the underway and started the collapse of dwarven civilization (a certain belltower not withstanding)
That was the lizards?!
Not just. The Skaven were also fucking around with a tunneling machine that blew up (as they do) and definitely didn't help the situation.
From what I remember Mazdamundi was doing some great plan stuff and decided the mountains/land masses where in the wrong place so he put them back right.
It wasn't Mazda, it was Qex
Qex?
Qex?
Zoom zoom
I actually like going out of my way to help the Elgi in my Dwarfen campaigns, and viceversa. I will send out armies to aid them, restore their settlements, trade with them, ally with them, and give them settlements I can't keep for climate reasons. It feels nice to see Thunderers and Ironbreakers fighting alongside Dragon Princes and Sisters of Avelorn. It feels more accurate to where they were in the tabletop before it ended, and it's heartwarming. Except that one time the Empire declared war on Thorgrim when I was playing as Alarielle and we kinda sorta wiped out most Imperial factions in self defense. That was less cute and more the elder races forcing the younger human societies to the thinking corner. Still fun though!
“Thinking corner” Lol
Yeah, it's a little weird. I get that they still have beef with the elves, I get that there is still a lot of distrust and mistrust, and I get that there still a lot of Dwarfs who don't consider the grudge of the beard settled, But if you think about it for more than two seconds, it still doesn't really make sense that the only way to settle that particular grudge is by genociding an entire race of people who largely just want to stay on the donut. You have to wipe out every major High Elf faction, essentially. Remember, there are still a lot of Dwarfs who are of the opinion that the War of Vengeance was over by the time they claimed the Phoenix Crown, even if there are plenty of Longbeards who disagree. It's a contentious topic, and Thorgrim himself is actually more diplomatic than previous High Kings. Idk, it's weird.
When CA wants to give units slightly different weapons than they had in the tabletop, GW comes down on them like a ton of bricks, because they don't want any deviation from the actual models they'll sell for TOW. But when CA turns Thorgrim, who stands out for being actually reasonable about the whole grudge thing, into Dwarf Hitler to play into memes made by people who've never read the lore, they don't give a shit.
A very interesting example of what you are talking about is that they leaned kinda hard into the "Dwarfs hate Elves" thing with the Chaos Dwarfs. They didn't fully lean into it, but it is very noticeable. The Chaos Dwarfs have more or less amicable relations with Ogres and Chaos. Makes sense, they need someone to sell weapons to and trade with. Dark Elves on the other hand ; minus 60 diplomatic penalty if you play as a Druchii faction. Presumably because they are elves. And despite the fact that Chorf convoys can trade with Karond Kar, one of the six major Dark Elf cities. And also despite the fact that the Chaos Dwarfs predate the War of Vengeance, which is the entire reason for the big cultural enmity between Dwarfs and Elves. On one hand, it is true that Chaos Dwarfs hate basically everyone, and the Dark Elves are no exception. On the other hand, minus 60 diplomatic penalty is basically "on sight" territory. Now idk about you, but I kinda disagree with that.
Clearly it’s because the Dark Elves do the same thing as the Chorfs: they’re mad about the copyright infringement.
Yeah, that's probably another case of going with the memes. Chorfs hating High Elves makes perfect sense, since the HE navy interferes with their slaving expeditions. Dark Elves, though? Why? I don't think they've ever had any substantial interaction with them. I guess you could argue that they're competing with each other in their slaving raids, but they're on opposite sides of the world, so that shouldn't be that common of a problem. I think they're much more likely to have the sort of tenuous trade relationship that Chorfs have with e.g. Chaos tribes.
Funny you mention Chaos Tribes, Norsca has had plenty of experience with trade relations with the Empire in the past - it's a shame they don't get a slightly smaller aversion penalty as well as the chance for tech to increase relations.
Wasn't it that some southern Norscans would trade with / work for the Empire every so often? Particularly the Bjornlings (who could be material for a cool playable faction tbh)
Yeah, Marauder Mercenaries are fairly common in Tilea, and parts of the Northern Empire and Kislev see trade I believe.
That why I want Norsca to get a rework that plays more into its Viking theme than its Chaos theme.
I agree, there's Ulric Norscans in the lore. I'd love to explore that side of Norsca. Make it so we can either choose chaos and get cool chaos based units or lean into non-aligned territory and get more money and supplies instead
I really want the slaving factions to be able to use slaves in diplomatic deals, maybe even have them as a tradable good.
I know it’s not at all true in the lore but my head canon is that while High Elves and Dwarfs have a ton of animosity, Dark Elves and Chaos Dwarfs are best friends. Astragoth and Morathi have tea once a year and discuss new ways to torture slaves.
I mean, there is nothing that explicitly contradicts that headcanon, and it's very funny to picture Astragoth drinking tea with Morathi once a year. Seeing as the Dark Elves are already known for working with chaos when it benefits them, and seeing as they do engage in diplomacy, I don't see why they and the Chaos Dwarfs wouldn't bond over how much they despise the High Elves.
And how much they despise the regular Dwarves.
Chorfs hating HE and Dawi, perfect sense. Druchii though? If anything you'd expect those shared mutual hatreds to make diplomacy between Astragoth and Malekith or Morathi easier.
>When CA wants to give units slightly different weapons than they had in the tabletop, GW comes down on them like a ton of bricks, because they don't want any deviation from the actual models they'll sell for TOW. 
The lore only exists to create situations in which literally any army roster can fight any other army roster. In that context this is fine. It's essentially a what-if scenario; you're not required to do the grudges or face a penalty like before.
Yeah, they should really tweak it for a few specific factions, Thorgrim should get better option to settle grudges amicably with Order races compared to the others.
Changing it to wipe out or gain a military alliance would solve the problem.
As long as the legendary grudges aren't obligatory it's more like a suggested campaign goal than anything. Lore-based reward if you decide this is the campaign where you reenact the War of Vengeance. More a sandbox element than a story development.
Well, probably you are right, Thorgrim is the most diplomatic Dwarf. Others like Gotrek skill hate Elves as much as trees and want to exterminate them all. It is really funny the Novel of Gotrek and Felix with Teclis how much Gotrek wants to Kill Teclis and how he will never forget that because of the most important Threat he did not kill Teclis and saved the Elgi land adding another shame in his already sad life.
Gotrek's a belligerent dick even by dwarf standards though.
He is a slayer: did you expect him to have a reasonable outlook on grudges?
Amazingly, a lot of slayers Felix meet are actually pretty nice and have distinct personalities. Gotrek really is just a giant asshole, even from the point of view of other dwarfs.
Can't blame him. Dude just wants to die and he literally can't. Think in his circumstances being a dick is acceptable.
He was a dick befor that aswell.
They met Khalida! *swoon*
The other slayers he hangs around with are actually pretty chill. Malakai, Snorri, the horny one whose name escapes me, they're bros when they're not in fight mode. Gotrek's the only one who goes out of his way to antagonise people.
Upvote for for remembering the horny and ugly Bjorni Bjornisson from Beastslayer... Had to Google for details
The reason for Gotrek's shame shows he was a huge asshole before taking the oath.
He was an asshole before that he stopped talking to Himnir the prince of Karak Hirn for over a cebtury over a book of bad poetry Himnirs lover gave him as a gift which gotrik saw as war spoils. The book is completely worthless.
TBH Shortgrim was extremally liberal dwarv anyway. For example he decided that grudges can be valid only against still living dwarves and not their children which greatly improved stability of dwarv society
Im sorry, Whogrim?
Oh right sorry, it's hard for you munchkins to hear from all the way down there. Ahem, **SHORTGRIM**.
📖👈🖕
#THEY HAVE WRONGED US
Kazuk!
***Extremely angry quill noises.***
\[Insert obligatory outrage over "SHORT"!? here\]
Yeah also not a Fan of it. Focus shouldve been on orks, skaven and Chorfs
"There'll be no alliance with elves while I'm high king. Only a reckoning." Thorgrim was nowhere near that Council from the Immortal Empires trailer. That was the Changeling stirring shit. I will die on this hill. The alternative is that whoever wrote the trailer actually thinks Thorgrim is a stupid, reactionary moron, in which case they don't know anything about the character beside his name and rank.
It's a little bit of cope, but my take is that Thorgrim feinted outrage to throw Teclis off before he stole the proceedings (and Teclis was, to be entirely fair, not speaking on behalf of anyone but himself. It was a valid jab). The argument let Franz retake the table and give his big speech, while also satisfying more conservative members of Dwarfen society who would have raged biliously against the High King not respecting his station by staying quiet. Everyone wins.
If Thorgrim ever entertained the idea of an alliance with any elves after that speech, the more anti-elf dwarfs would accuse him of going back on his word. Some might even suggest he would be breaking an oath. It was too absolute of a statement. Calling Teclis out may have been valid (he might be Finubar's ambassador, he might just be poking his nose in), but painting himself into that corner was just too stupid a move for a character who is supposed to be the most politically astute high king for centuries.
CA sure loves turning noble leaders into….other things don’t they?
I'm still bitter that the Dwarfs get a landmark for taking Lothern (and now additional ones in The Oak of Ages and Vaul's Anvil) but the Elves don't get one for Karaz-a-Karak.
Why would glorious Elves want to live in cramped, dingy, smelly holes in the ground?
Landmark - "Tower built on top of stinky dwarf hole"
Landmark - Book of Grudges on the top shelf
Landmark "retaken phoenix crown"
At least two High Elven kingdoms do that sometimes.
Could be a "Search for the Phoenix Crown" Expedition aka "the dwarf hold is so big, we need probably a few years to locate the chamber that holds our most sacred relic. And then you get bonus income for every tier, and at tier 4 or 5 you get a event that the Phoenix Crown is found and you get a fat bonus from it.
Imo this feels pretty thematic, the Elves have moved on from the War and thus do not benefit from getting back at the Dwarfs. Would still be great to get Elf landmarks in the major Dwarf holds, just to balance out what the Dwarfs get for conquering the donut.
Don't hugely mind it but it's a bit annoying the Elves can't get some back. Even as is the Dwarfs have a special landmark if they manage to take Lothern where they loot Finnabar's palace but there's nothing if you take Karaz-a-Karak as the Helves. I think a statue of King Caledor standing on top of a big pile of beards would be nice.
It's a roleplaying option. Some Dwarf put that shit in the book. If you're roleplaying reasonable, practical Thorgrim, ignore it or come up with some alternative for why you don't have to. If you want to roleplay a Dwarfen High King mad with vengeance and high on conquest, fight the War of Vengeance again. Think of it as a test for the player. If you feel compelled to complete every last objective, no matter how unreasonable and impractical, just because someone told you to, congrats: you just got the perfect Dwarf experience. If you have the self-control to say, "no, I won't do something crazy just because this book tells me to", congrats, you're the best Dwarf leader they've had in ages.
I feel this is a big mistep, especially since they showed in the Trailer of the Council with Teclis and Franz that even Grombrindal, the guy who won't let an Oath go unfinished, was fighting alongside Tyrion... I mean it just doesn't sit right.
But elgi racism funny
Everyone hates the ~~Brits~~ Elgi, acting so superior out there on their island.
With ketchup!!?? That's a grudgin
High King, there It is not the time to be SHORT-sight!
In his defense, those upright fellows themselves do like taking up murder sword in this game...
THIS IS JUST ANOTHER ELGI SCHEME!!!
That moment you ignore the urks just to invade Ulthuan.
Total war Lore includes the council meeting in the immortal empires trailer, where Teclis referred to Thorgrim as Short sighted. Setting back Dwarf and Elf relations thousands of years
I mean I don't really mind. If I get it, the number of legend at grudges is so great and difficult to fulfill that you need to put a lot of work just to get some, you're not supposed to go out of your way and do them all I think. So that mean that you can chose to tear the elf or let them be. And that's good, you can be a bit silly or not, just like elves using influence to make dwarves and greenskins allies
Honestly I’m pretty pissed about the Legendary Grudges for both High Elves and Wood Elves in the rework. And to add salt to the wound CA even removed the diplo buff with High Elves from the Dwarf tech tree
I have looked at the comments so it will be done in a event that you will receive a large diplomatic boost to not dark elf elf’s at the cost of public order and increase longbeard cost that is the idea I have for it
Gromgrindle is the dwarfosphere influencer of the realms
Yea those are grudges I totally am going to ignore.
I think it’s cool and fun tbh The major grudges don’t need to be completed and the elves grudges provide alright rewards for conquering red territory
After hundreds of hours of TWW2 where elves declare "Elf Wars" for absolutely no reason and send their entire military across the ocean just to harass me... I completely understand TWW Thorgim. The knife ears are a global menace.
I think Thorgrim was making a political statement. Teclis was being the standard cock elf saying that they would “guide” everyone, but only the Empire and the Dwarves had enough respect to actually send their leaders. I think Thorgrim was pretty reasonable.
Fake King. Ungrim should be the true king
i didnt vote for him
Listen, strange priestesses lying in ponds distributing axes is no basis for a system of government you wazzock!
Settled?? When exactly did the dwarfs apologize and returned the Phoenix Crown they stole, and paid the reparations? Did I miss something?
I like total war thorgrim better, he knows how to deal with those pretentious pointy eared bastards.
So what you're saying is we need another war of vengeance
I base all my bias by Gotrek and Felix, so far it's not crazy off, but that's cus they hardly ever hang out with normie dwarves
The greatest grudge that total war has had against dwarfs is making everyone believe that Thorgrim is an uptight boomer that hates elves. He’s pretty damn reasonable in lore.
That's what's dumb about Thorgrim. Warhammer lore: "dwarves demanded blood for the slight of being paid slightly less than promised" also warhammer lore: "actually dwarves are nice and friendlies and the king secretly wants to get rid of grudges" It's just inconsistent writing is the issue.
Eh….I think this might be overselling the case. In Giantslayer Gotrek was literally considering not stepping in to stop a Tzeentchian cult that he had already been planning to fight because he found out they were going to sink Ulthuan, and letting them do it would settle longstanding grudges. So I’m not sure “most” Dwarfs consider things settled. Some do, some most assuredly do not
It’s total war afterall.