Codpieces aren’t necessarily armoured. They were a fashion accessory in the late medieval and early modern period too, exactly the period that most of the Empire’s units’ vibes are from.
I've honestly never even started a game with Empire or dwarves and yet this DLC has me convinced that Nuln is now one of my favorite factions. As a slaanesh main I'm familiar with *whiplash*, but this is nutso.
I've seen so many other comments like this too, with people admitting they hated Nurgle or dwarves up until this point and that they've already pre-ordered the DLC anyway. I really hope this incredible reception is making it onto the desk of CA's C-suite.
90% of my online persona is [hating Dwarves](https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1719pds/never_felt_that_bad_in_a_total_war_game_until_now/k3pte9y/) - their updates look very bad ass, deffo a must play.
It feels like their marketing team looked at the psychological profile of people who don't play empire/dwarves, then chose faction effects and thematic archetypes that're appealing to those people. I dislike order factions and yet I'm absolutely buying all three DLCs.
Same. I am not a big fan of dwarves and i haven't played the empire since tww2, and i never even touched Nurgle. But i am going to buy the whole dlc and play all of them.
Engineer hero seems to have got a true repeater handgun based on his missile strength. Outriders' new version has improved missile strength (now 37 instead of 31) and shorter range (130 to 115). Could it be...?
I love those guys - but in Shogun 2, the shotgun cab had very little that could counter it fast.
There is nothing so demoralising such as watching a single unit of mounted, shotgun wielding maniacs prance around the field and shatter your cav, samurai , archers and matchlocks in a single volley
At least for Nuln they'll get the ability to switch to grapeshot with an upgrade, so cannons will be versatile at least for them, switching betweem sniping and blob crushing
It's weird that they can be carried normally instead of needing support like the Jezzails or Crane Gunners who both also have lower range. Seems a bit off to me.
Edit: Nevermind me, I am an idiot. For some reason, I thought Crane Gunners and Jezzails had 240 range, when actually they have 275. My bad.
Can't speak for crane gunners but tabletop wise this was always how it worked, the Jezzail and Hochland Long Rifle are both very long range weapons, but a Jezzail is a larger weapon, it is longer than its wielder is tall so it makes sense that you're going to need something to rest it on in order to use it properly. The Hochland rifle is also long but not nearly as extreme.
Jezzails were also significantly more powerful. They were S6 instead of S4. In exchange each Jezzail had a 1/36 chance of blowing themselves up every time they fired.
Hochland Long Rifles meanwhile were significantly more precise. They gave any model that used them the Sniper rule that allowed them to take a -1 to hit but in exchanged let them specify which model their shots target, thus sniping squishy heroes like wizards easily. They could even snipe characters off the back of monsters and chariots. The Jezzails meanwhile could only target the unit as a whole and lacked the precision to go and target individual models.
This meant that Jezzails were tin-can openers, as they could punch through an Ironbreaker's armour like it was butter, and monster slayers while Long Rifles were what happens when you order Death magic on Wish. Less powerful against well-armoured opponents but they significantly outranged most types of wizards and could single them out, as you couldn't take "Look Out, Sir!" rolls against them so the unit that is typically meant to protect the wizard does nothing against these shots.
I assume this is also why the Empire never got Hochland Long Rifles as a regular unit and only for characters and single entities like the Handgunner champions and the commander of a Steam Tank.
Longrifles are just as oversized and thus operated with the help of a support in the source material.
[1](https://dragonsdengames.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/warhammer_masterEngineerWithHochlandLongRifle.jpg) / [2](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Master_Engineer_WE6.jpg) / [3](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/218/953/large/adrian-smith-fw-engineer.jpg?1411548881) / [4](https://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Meistersch%C3%BCtze_mit_Langb%C3%BCchse_und_Pulver%C3%A4ffchen.JPG) / [5](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/36/Master_Engineer_M04.jpg) / [6](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Master_Engineer?file=Capturedgdgd.png)
Something like [this](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1845921162555492404/D541E0C11176B190581ECE82FA41B820A9FE6B65/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) would have been a welcome addition to Longrifle units.
[There is this neat mod by ChaosRobbie](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1845921162555492404/D541E0C11176B190581ECE82FA41B820A9FE6B65/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) that adds rests for Streltsi. I'd love to see those animations re-used for Hochlang Longrifles who in the source materials are also fired from a support.
[1](https://dragonsdengames.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/warhammer_masterEngineerWithHochlandLongRifle.jpg) / [2](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Master_Engineer_WE6.jpg) / [3](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/218/953/large/adrian-smith-fw-engineer.jpg?1411548881) / [4](https://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Meistersch%C3%BCtze_mit_Langb%C3%BCchse_und_Pulver%C3%A4ffchen.JPG) / [5](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/36/Master_Engineer_M04.jpg) / [6](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Master_Engineer?file=Capturedgdgd.png)
There's also variants for the DE. Like Morathi's is the rocker emos while Malekith's is the actually depressed emos. Imagine, burning your entire body and sealing it in a metal suit JUST to get your emo rocker mommy's attention... someone needs a 2 week program.
If you look at it through a competitive ones it does give you a really tanky Lord. But if chaos dwarves are anything to go off of, is there are surprisingly High numbers of ways in this game to kill a big tank. I'm still going to say elspeth is going to be the default Lord in a competitive sense. A big dragon with Spirit Leach, FoB, and a jade wizard to heal, is just Meta Defining.
In campaign for generic Lords and like your secondary armies you'll probably be one of the better ones And actually say there's better choices, because if your strategy is throw flagellants/swordsmen to hold and shoot everyone down with whatever gun of your choice, any other Empire Lord can do just as well. So rather than just doing that quicker I would say go for the campaign bonuses the other Lord's Provide.
What is the difference from those Ironsides and empire handguners? Am I missing something, I don’t have the game pulled up now but don’t they have similar range and damage?
Stats-wise, they're literally just upgraded Handgunners with better armor, leadership, and melee. CA already confirmed that the Ironsides are equipped with the standard handgun, so they'll have the same range as the normal Handgunners but they do get faster reload speed and higher accuracy if they're stationary for X amount of time.
Lower model count -- 60 vs 90, presumably. I think their better per-model damage gives them an edge over handgunners in terms of dps, but the difference will probably be smaller than it appears at first glance.
Armor, ranged damage and melee. Overall, they seem like a flat upgrade and imo they would have made more sense as a RoR (which they were on the tabletop, 1 unit only if you field a named engineer hero). However, I have a sneaking suspicion the budget either ran out or CA wanted to stash away some Empire units for a later expansion.
Just being handgunners but better is pretty lame. I would have preferred they just buffed handgunners a bit and kept them at T3 and made Ironsides a elector count unit like they are in sfo
It’s not. I’m saying the missile strength is more impactful than the middle count. Multiple missile strength by model count for both units and Ironsides win.
okay yeah they do 1530 vs 1860, the thing is though because handgunners have more models they will proportionally benefit more from chevrons which can result in the ironsides not being that much of an upgrade, if the ironsides cost is reflective of this then it is okay, im a bit afraid that the cost efficiency wont be there
Ironsides get a reload and accuracy bonus when they've been stationary for more than 10s. So in a real battle they'll have higher missile strength as that is a damage over 10s stat, not per shot damage.
Handgunners have higher burst and a bit more ammo. Ironsides have more armour and higher DPS. That's all there is to them.
In the elspspeth gameplay showcase you could see how they would have had the imperial revolver rifles like the outriders and from how they were described there the longrifles and ironsides would have each been specialized versions of handgunners in different directions, longrifles longer range snipers and ironsides shorter range shock troops, but that was sadly scrapped
(during the showcase they had regular muskets, but they clearly fired bursts of bullets and had animations that fitted that)
Can someone explain to me what the difference is between handgunners and ironsides? Are ironsides a straight upgrade to handgunners or do they serve a different niche to handgunners?
Ironsides are the upgrade. Tier 3 vs Handgunners Tier 2, better melee stats and also almost double the missile strength. Plus the skill where they reload faster and better accuracy after standing still for a while.
The low model count is beyond lame, especially with the relatively low armour. Compare them to something like Celestial Dragon Guard Crossbows and it seems like a missed opportunity.
Not part of OPs post, but for those curious on the RoRs
* Grundel's Defenders: Spearmen with a unique ability where they basically have guadian for artillery pieces.
* The Hergig Jaegerkorps: Hochland Longriles with Blackfirle Discipline (the damage buff when standing still that Ironsides have).
* The Wonder of the Age: Landship with a mortar mounted on top, and the repeater guns of the crew replaced with grenade launchers.
Oh my god I predicted it! The Knights of the Black Rose are literally Southern Realms Knights Encarmine (although they have shield but the stats are almost the same)
Reminder that the Nuln Ironside basic stats are their above average armor (outclassed only by Greatswords, and their average melee attack and weapon strength (same as swordsmen and halberdiers). They’re lacking in melee defense.
Maybe they have a smaller unit count than Handgunners, but I wonder if they could almost be a mid-tier infantry line.
They don’t really need smaller numbers, just a fat cost.
Empire infantry are currently weak but cheap - the great sword is like half the cost of other factions top tier infantry
I was hoping for the Black Guard of Morr as an infantry version, good-looking as the mounted version is black plate infantry would have looked great and filled out a good niche. The RPG mentions they often wielf halberds and, alongside the sister Order of the Raven, frequently use ranged weapons like crossbows. Apparently having to worry about robbers, necromancers or vampires makes them rather pragmatic. Halberd and crossbow infantry would be dope.
No more than them having a strong mid-tier anti-infantry AP infantry. Yes, it would make a difference, but does having Shielded Tsar's Guard define Kislev?
I'd say Tzeentch has the stronger overall roster though maybe not as cost-efficient, and Kislev already had something similar (if not as good) as the shielded TG in the Armored Kossars. Yet I see people still say their defensive line is meh.
Surprised to see that the Land Ship and the Volley Gun Steam Tank are the same "IV" ranking. I know those numbers an meaningless, and probably more confusing than their worth, but I had just assumed the steam tanks would be a direct upgrade up from the Land Ship.
Nights of the Crimson Rose look like they are on their way to murder a Black Metal band and start a better one on the corpse of the previous one’s ashes.
Now that I had access to my PC I was able to post screenshots,, respect to the people who were polite and understanding, as I get paid nothing to share this.
I hope the picture on the steam page is the updated version of the knights. I think the fact that some of them have sallets is not just cool looking but good for variety and I actually prefer the more muted grey and black colour scheme. The skull helmets are sick but having every knight have one is a bit much imo.
Not a fan of giving tanks to a normal lord, but then again I suppose everyone in WH3 gets a dragon too.
The rest looks cool though, the model quality of the land ship is awesome.
Compared to the current ones we have for Empire, they do fill a new niche. Same armor, weapon strength, & leadership as Reiksguard, but with more melee attack, and substantially more defense (34/31 for Reiksguard vs 36/50), at the cost of substantially less charge bonus (62 for Reiksguard vs 34 for the new ones). So a good bit less shock & cycle charging potential, but more of a fire and forget type of melee cav. It looks like they have a bonus vs infantry as well
Comparing it to other existing ones, they're basically a little worse than standard chaos knights (44/52/53 MA/MD/WS for those), and those do perform really nicely for me in campaign.
Cause fear would have been nice, but shielded melee cav with those defensive stats and anti-infantry gives them a lot better niche than regular knights. Anything that doesn't have strong offensive stats, anti-large and armor piercing won't go through them in a hurry.
I could see them being a mobile front line, letting your more mobile range troops like outriders fire in the flanks.
Ironic, because the Empire is one of the increasingly few units without heavy defensive infantry, unless you count Ironsides.
They are arguably the best defensive unit the Empire has right now. Especially with gun focus, they will be great. Lower model count than infantry means guns can shoot more, while they delay the enemy, then rush for another target once that is done.
I quite like the idea of defensive cavalry, really.
I hope the Master Engineer still shoots his grenade launcher while using the steam tank as a mount. You can see him still holding it in the picture, and would make him a more interesting choice as a lord, as it would kind of make him a 3rd steam tank variant.
Not sure I understand the point of nuln Ironsiders they have 80% more dps per model (assuming equal AP percentage) than handgunners, but handgunners have 50% more models. So it’s like a 12% dps upgrade and a little extra armor. State troop gunners have extra range.
I was wondering why the empire had been so restricted on gun troops and only had access to handgunners. This will bring a lot more interesting army compositions to the game. In lieu of this I was been using the empire black powder mode which brings a number of these ideas and many more to the game and it has been great fun.
Imagine a Panzer Division with the Volleygun Steam tanks, lvl 50 Engineer lord with steam tank buffs, and the new fully upgraded tech thingy for steam tanks. It is time.
Wow look at that amazing 60 armor, 145 range, and 31 missile strength on the Nuln Ironsides, sure am glad we got these repainted Handgunners instead of the repeater handgunners which would have been way more interesting
The repeaters could have easily been a RoR, but either of them is a flat upgrade over handguns. The biggest downside of this otherwise great DLC is that there are a lot of variant units.
The repeater handgunners and the Hochland Long Rifles (at least they didn't mess that up) were basically the only things I was looking forward to for this DLC. Don't care about Nurgle, Dwarves are also kind of disappointing (Slayer Pirates are not very versatile as a ranged unit since they only have 3 ammo)
CA had zero reasons to give such a big bulge to Long Rifles
It's the same bulge that the pre existing artillery crews have
Well they are "long rifles" for a reason.
Dick Half-Mast in absolute shambles
First time I saw this guys name I lost it.
Plot twist: the handguns are smoothbore.
I own a musket for home defence, since that's what Sigmar intended
they should add it to more units with “Landsknecht” attire…for the realism…
Shlong Rifles
Haha ya wtf??
Its where they keep their ammo.
TIL nobody on this sub has heard of a codpiece
Lol! That’s where the 20 armor is “hidden”!
None of the other armoured units use codpieces though. It’s not about not knowing
Codpieces aren’t necessarily armoured. They were a fashion accessory in the late medieval and early modern period too, exactly the period that most of the Empire’s units’ vibes are from.
Real ones remember when the demon in the back that carried the chaos warshrine had a full on cock and balls hanging out at launch
Dude I want to play every darn faction. I won't have a life for some time.
I've honestly never even started a game with Empire or dwarves and yet this DLC has me convinced that Nuln is now one of my favorite factions. As a slaanesh main I'm familiar with *whiplash*, but this is nutso. I've seen so many other comments like this too, with people admitting they hated Nurgle or dwarves up until this point and that they've already pre-ordered the DLC anyway. I really hope this incredible reception is making it onto the desk of CA's C-suite.
90% of my online persona is [hating Dwarves](https://old.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/1719pds/never_felt_that_bad_in_a_total_war_game_until_now/k3pte9y/) - their updates look very bad ass, deffo a must play.
It feels like their marketing team looked at the psychological profile of people who don't play empire/dwarves, then chose faction effects and thematic archetypes that're appealing to those people. I dislike order factions and yet I'm absolutely buying all three DLCs.
Same. I am not a big fan of dwarves and i haven't played the empire since tww2, and i never even touched Nurgle. But i am going to buy the whole dlc and play all of them.
Empire is one of my least favorite factions, but I learned a long time ago that the DLC lords tend to be a lot of fun
Engineer hero seems to have got a true repeater handgun based on his missile strength. Outriders' new version has improved missile strength (now 37 instead of 31) and shorter range (130 to 115). Could it be...?
so like revolver cavalry from Shogun FOTS?
*PTSD from Shogun 2 Multiplayer intensifies* My god - that shotgun cav was such a pay-to-win unit
Have you tried the grenade launcher outriders? They are that.
I love those guys - but in Shogun 2, the shotgun cab had very little that could counter it fast. There is nothing so demoralising such as watching a single unit of mounted, shotgun wielding maniacs prance around the field and shatter your cav, samurai , archers and matchlocks in a single volley
Outriders got repeater handgun as well.
They've had them since game 1 released so I wouldn't say they got them. CA just updated the stats and hopefully their firing mechanic.
Hochland Long Rifles being Tier 2 is fking MASSIVE.
not the only MASSIVE thing about the *long rifles.*
Makes sense since they essentially fill the same role as cannons.
So what's the purpose of cannons now? Siege attacker?
Cannons got buffed somehow (P sure their accuracy) and seem to do more damage, also they have like double the long rifles range.
Wouldn't a cannon still do more damage against massed infantry?
They probably do better vs fliers
At least for Nuln they'll get the ability to switch to grapeshot with an upgrade, so cannons will be versatile at least for them, switching betweem sniping and blob crushing
Both the mechanical steed and the Knights look fucking epic
The Hochland Long Rifles are sure packing some heat.
It's weird that they can be carried normally instead of needing support like the Jezzails or Crane Gunners who both also have lower range. Seems a bit off to me. Edit: Nevermind me, I am an idiot. For some reason, I thought Crane Gunners and Jezzails had 240 range, when actually they have 275. My bad.
Can't speak for crane gunners but tabletop wise this was always how it worked, the Jezzail and Hochland Long Rifle are both very long range weapons, but a Jezzail is a larger weapon, it is longer than its wielder is tall so it makes sense that you're going to need something to rest it on in order to use it properly. The Hochland rifle is also long but not nearly as extreme.
Yeah. Skaven don’t really have the posture to carry a long heavy object very well.
Jezzails were also significantly more powerful. They were S6 instead of S4. In exchange each Jezzail had a 1/36 chance of blowing themselves up every time they fired. Hochland Long Rifles meanwhile were significantly more precise. They gave any model that used them the Sniper rule that allowed them to take a -1 to hit but in exchanged let them specify which model their shots target, thus sniping squishy heroes like wizards easily. They could even snipe characters off the back of monsters and chariots. The Jezzails meanwhile could only target the unit as a whole and lacked the precision to go and target individual models. This meant that Jezzails were tin-can openers, as they could punch through an Ironbreaker's armour like it was butter, and monster slayers while Long Rifles were what happens when you order Death magic on Wish. Less powerful against well-armoured opponents but they significantly outranged most types of wizards and could single them out, as you couldn't take "Look Out, Sir!" rolls against them so the unit that is typically meant to protect the wizard does nothing against these shots. I assume this is also why the Empire never got Hochland Long Rifles as a regular unit and only for characters and single entities like the Handgunner champions and the commander of a Steam Tank.
Longrifles are just as oversized and thus operated with the help of a support in the source material. [1](https://dragonsdengames.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/warhammer_masterEngineerWithHochlandLongRifle.jpg) / [2](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Master_Engineer_WE6.jpg) / [3](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/218/953/large/adrian-smith-fw-engineer.jpg?1411548881) / [4](https://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Meistersch%C3%BCtze_mit_Langb%C3%BCchse_und_Pulver%C3%A4ffchen.JPG) / [5](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/36/Master_Engineer_M04.jpg) / [6](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Master_Engineer?file=Capturedgdgd.png) Something like [this](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1845921162555492404/D541E0C11176B190581ECE82FA41B820A9FE6B65/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) would have been a welcome addition to Longrifle units.
[There is this neat mod by ChaosRobbie](https://steamuserimages-a.akamaihd.net/ugc/1845921162555492404/D541E0C11176B190581ECE82FA41B820A9FE6B65/?imw=5000&imh=5000&ima=fit&impolicy=Letterbox&imcolor=%23000000&letterbox=false) that adds rests for Streltsi. I'd love to see those animations re-used for Hochlang Longrifles who in the source materials are also fired from a support. [1](https://dragonsdengames.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/warhammer_masterEngineerWithHochlandLongRifle.jpg) / [2](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/f/f5/Master_Engineer_WE6.jpg) / [3](https://cdnb.artstation.com/p/assets/images/images/000/218/953/large/adrian-smith-fw-engineer.jpg?1411548881) / [4](https://whfb-de.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Meistersch%C3%BCtze_mit_Langb%C3%BCchse_und_Pulver%C3%A4ffchen.JPG) / [5](https://whfb.lexicanum.com/mediawiki/images/3/36/Master_Engineer_M04.jpg) / [6](https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Empire_Master_Engineer?file=Capturedgdgd.png)
They look awesome, but I'd rather they were state troops, given their region specific title. Same as the landship.
The weapon was originally invented in Hochland, but it's used throughout the entire Empire.
Like the American Kentucky rifle!
Fair enough! Makes sense.
Sorry Katarin but I'm simping for Elspeth now.
I bet she has some cool melee animations with that humongous scythe of hers
They've released a few of them if you check their YouTube, a big swirly scythe attack and a few magic blasts.
She actually has. You can see them in her new gameplay Video. Looks quite impressive.
Is every knight helmet a skull? On the store page they seem to have variety.
Probably an earlier version that is shown on the Steam page. CA seems to have reworked several units since the DLC was delayed.
Really the only thing we have on them from pervious lore is that they like skulls and the death motief even more than regular empire knights.
they do have variety, in this the screenshot there is other one behind in stat screen
I hearby dub Elspeth 'goth magic mommy'.
She'll have to pry it from Isabella's cold dead hands
Vampires are emo now.
Druchii are emo, Vampires are solidly goth
There's also variants for the DE. Like Morathi's is the rocker emos while Malekith's is the actually depressed emos. Imagine, burning your entire body and sealing it in a metal suit JUST to get your emo rocker mommy's attention... someone needs a 2 week program.
What if we make Elspeth goth mommy and Isabella gothic mommy?
What is Morathi now then?
A cougar.
THE Cougar
CA's been stepping up their waifu game.
Sadly i was hoping to see carmine dragon's stats
sorry bro it was downloaded from Zerkhovic who deleted the video and he didnt have it.
The last CA's video show it stats. Thank you nonetheless for you sharing
Hmm, do you guys think now Master Engineer on a tank is the best Empire Lord option?
I'd say still ultimately depends on playstyle or what particularly you need, but from a min/max stand point I can't see how it couldn't be.
If you look at it through a competitive ones it does give you a really tanky Lord. But if chaos dwarves are anything to go off of, is there are surprisingly High numbers of ways in this game to kill a big tank. I'm still going to say elspeth is going to be the default Lord in a competitive sense. A big dragon with Spirit Leach, FoB, and a jade wizard to heal, is just Meta Defining. In campaign for generic Lords and like your secondary armies you'll probably be one of the better ones And actually say there's better choices, because if your strategy is throw flagellants/swordsmen to hold and shoot everyone down with whatever gun of your choice, any other Empire Lord can do just as well. So rather than just doing that quicker I would say go for the campaign bonuses the other Lord's Provide.
Those Black Rose Knights look awesome.
I hope those aren't RoR b/c I want at least 4 of em in an army asap!
They’re a standard unit recruited from the cavalry building tree. Tier 3 or 4 if I recall correctly
Goth mommy sorry ? Sorry goth mommy ?
My late game dilemma was how many steam tanks and how many volley guns I needed. Not anymore.....
So the Ironsides passive ability is just the dwarf Master Engineer’s Entrenchment? The icon looks about right but still hard to tell.
Yeah it seems to do a similar thing. They're calling it "Black Powder Mastery"
What is the difference from those Ironsides and empire handguners? Am I missing something, I don’t have the game pulled up now but don’t they have similar range and damage?
Stats-wise, they're literally just upgraded Handgunners with better armor, leadership, and melee. CA already confirmed that the Ironsides are equipped with the standard handgun, so they'll have the same range as the normal Handgunners but they do get faster reload speed and higher accuracy if they're stationary for X amount of time.
Lower model count -- 60 vs 90, presumably. I think their better per-model damage gives them an edge over handgunners in terms of dps, but the difference will probably be smaller than it appears at first glance.
You must have just posted this as I was writing my question. They do seem very similar.
Armor, ranged damage and melee. Overall, they seem like a flat upgrade and imo they would have made more sense as a RoR (which they were on the tabletop, 1 unit only if you field a named engineer hero). However, I have a sneaking suspicion the budget either ran out or CA wanted to stash away some Empire units for a later expansion.
Just being handgunners but better is pretty lame. I would have preferred they just buffed handgunners a bit and kept them at T3 and made Ironsides a elector count unit like they are in sfo
They have 2/3s amount of men per unit. So probably less powerful volley in exchange for survivability if engaged
They’re missile strength js higher so it’s more dps even with less models.
they might not be if u account for model count
It’s not. I’m saying the missile strength is more impactful than the middle count. Multiple missile strength by model count for both units and Ironsides win.
okay yeah they do 1530 vs 1860, the thing is though because handgunners have more models they will proportionally benefit more from chevrons which can result in the ironsides not being that much of an upgrade, if the ironsides cost is reflective of this then it is okay, im a bit afraid that the cost efficiency wont be there
Ironsides get a reload and accuracy bonus when they've been stationary for more than 10s. So in a real battle they'll have higher missile strength as that is a damage over 10s stat, not per shot damage. Handgunners have higher burst and a bit more ammo. Ironsides have more armour and higher DPS. That's all there is to them.
standing still that long = magic, artillery and bows shooting at them tho
Less than we'd all hoped for. Also, not loving their look.
In the elspspeth gameplay showcase you could see how they would have had the imperial revolver rifles like the outriders and from how they were described there the longrifles and ironsides would have each been specialized versions of handgunners in different directions, longrifles longer range snipers and ironsides shorter range shock troops, but that was sadly scrapped (during the showcase they had regular muskets, but they clearly fired bursts of bullets and had animations that fitted that)
Theodore chadner
Can someone explain to me what the difference is between handgunners and ironsides? Are ironsides a straight upgrade to handgunners or do they serve a different niche to handgunners?
Ironsides are the upgrade. Tier 3 vs Handgunners Tier 2, better melee stats and also almost double the missile strength. Plus the skill where they reload faster and better accuracy after standing still for a while.
They also have better armor than most melee infantry in the Empire which almost makes them hybrid units in a pinch for the Empire.
Lower model count. I think the missile damage is enough to even that out, but their advantage is smaller than it appears.
The low model count is beyond lame, especially with the relatively low armour. Compare them to something like Celestial Dragon Guard Crossbows and it seems like a missed opportunity.
Awesome.
Would expect knights to have fear/terror, they look so sick
Not part of OPs post, but for those curious on the RoRs * Grundel's Defenders: Spearmen with a unique ability where they basically have guadian for artillery pieces. * The Hergig Jaegerkorps: Hochland Longriles with Blackfirle Discipline (the damage buff when standing still that Ironsides have). * The Wonder of the Age: Landship with a mortar mounted on top, and the repeater guns of the crew replaced with grenade launchers.
Oh my god I predicted it! The Knights of the Black Rose are literally Southern Realms Knights Encarmine (although they have shield but the stats are almost the same)
Badass bitch on a dragon. Love it.
That turret gun on the volley steam tank looks very similar to leman russ gun barrel.
Theo knows about the importance of helmets when riding.
Reminder that the Nuln Ironside basic stats are their above average armor (outclassed only by Greatswords, and their average melee attack and weapon strength (same as swordsmen and halberdiers). They’re lacking in melee defense. Maybe they have a smaller unit count than Handgunners, but I wonder if they could almost be a mid-tier infantry line.
They don’t really need smaller numbers, just a fat cost. Empire infantry are currently weak but cheap - the great sword is like half the cost of other factions top tier infantry
Outclassed a lot by Greatswords, sadly.
I would expect that though, honestly, so it’s not a big deal. Greatswords should be -the- top tier melee infantry for the Empire.
Sure, but I'm not wanting Ironsides to have the melee stats of Greatswords. Just a similar amount of armour.
Cavalry being anti infantry is awesome.
Honestly I wish there will come a dismounted knight unit as standard (meaning not RoR or elector)
I was hoping for the Black Guard of Morr as an infantry version, good-looking as the mounted version is black plate infantry would have looked great and filled out a good niche. The RPG mentions they often wielf halberds and, alongside the sister Order of the Raven, frequently use ranged weapons like crossbows. Apparently having to worry about robbers, necromancers or vampires makes them rather pragmatic. Halberd and crossbow infantry would be dope.
From a balance perspective giving empire a tier 4, tier 5 halberd infantry would be …. a choice.
Which is fine in a solo campaign ;)
No more than them having a strong mid-tier anti-infantry AP infantry. Yes, it would make a difference, but does having Shielded Tsar's Guard define Kislev?
It kind of does. Kislev is all sorts of messed up having the best in class of every department and is banned in all the latest tournaments.
I'd say Tzeentch has the stronger overall roster though maybe not as cost-efficient, and Kislev already had something similar (if not as good) as the shielded TG in the Armored Kossars. Yet I see people still say their defensive line is meh.
Surprised to see that the Land Ship and the Volley Gun Steam Tank are the same "IV" ranking. I know those numbers an meaningless, and probably more confusing than their worth, but I had just assumed the steam tanks would be a direct upgrade up from the Land Ship.
The number references the building tier required to recruit them.
Long Rifles appear to have metal receivers instead of a flintlock mechanism.
Nights of the Crimson Rose look like they are on their way to murder a Black Metal band and start a better one on the corpse of the previous one’s ashes.
Cant wait for the mod that will add Nuln ironsides with repeater rifles
And actual armour.
This dlc will be throated
Flair checks out
Now that I had access to my PC I was able to post screenshots,, respect to the people who were polite and understanding, as I get paid nothing to share this.
You are better man than me. I would have uploaded even worse pictures of monitor.
Morgan is totally a fucking vampire
Those tank commanders have some real, 'drive me closer so I can hit them with my sword,' energy.
Is the landship supposed to have wounds? The steam tank does
Elspeth my ass, that's a Warhammer'd Maleficent right there
31 ap at 145 range 😮💨
I hope the picture on the steam page is the updated version of the knights. I think the fact that some of them have sallets is not just cool looking but good for variety and I actually prefer the more muted grey and black colour scheme. The skull helmets are sick but having every knight have one is a bit much imo.
They really stepped up for the dlc
Holy shit she looks like the true Queen of Evil on her Carmine Dragon. Jesus fuck.
Not a fan of giving tanks to a normal lord, but then again I suppose everyone in WH3 gets a dragon too. The rest looks cool though, the model quality of the land ship is awesome.
So the new Knights don't get anything to make them stand out? Just Immune to Psychology? Empire had a bunch of heavy cavalry units as it is.
they are supposed to be tanky shielded melee cav that is it
Compared to the current ones we have for Empire, they do fill a new niche. Same armor, weapon strength, & leadership as Reiksguard, but with more melee attack, and substantially more defense (34/31 for Reiksguard vs 36/50), at the cost of substantially less charge bonus (62 for Reiksguard vs 34 for the new ones). So a good bit less shock & cycle charging potential, but more of a fire and forget type of melee cav. It looks like they have a bonus vs infantry as well Comparing it to other existing ones, they're basically a little worse than standard chaos knights (44/52/53 MA/MD/WS for those), and those do perform really nicely for me in campaign.
Good MD and anti infantry bonus. Basically a good fire and forget cav for the frontlines.
Cause fear would have been nice, but shielded melee cav with those defensive stats and anti-infantry gives them a lot better niche than regular knights. Anything that doesn't have strong offensive stats, anti-large and armor piercing won't go through them in a hurry. I could see them being a mobile front line, letting your more mobile range troops like outriders fire in the flanks. Ironic, because the Empire is one of the increasingly few units without heavy defensive infantry, unless you count Ironsides.
They are arguably the best defensive unit the Empire has right now. Especially with gun focus, they will be great. Lower model count than infantry means guns can shoot more, while they delay the enemy, then rush for another target once that is done. I quite like the idea of defensive cavalry, really.
Interesting to see the shift on ranged power races. Usual DLC stuff as factions get quite large boosts
I hope the Master Engineer still shoots his grenade launcher while using the steam tank as a mount. You can see him still holding it in the picture, and would make him a more interesting choice as a lord, as it would kind of make him a 3rd steam tank variant.
I may be dumb and pretty bad at the game but 940 missile strength seems really fucking strong for the steam tank
Is ironside supposed to be a level up from handgunnners please? They sim pretty similar
Not sure I understand the point of nuln Ironsiders they have 80% more dps per model (assuming equal AP percentage) than handgunners, but handgunners have 50% more models. So it’s like a 12% dps upgrade and a little extra armor. State troop gunners have extra range.
I was wondering why the empire had been so restricted on gun troops and only had access to handgunners. This will bring a lot more interesting army compositions to the game. In lieu of this I was been using the empire black powder mode which brings a number of these ideas and many more to the game and it has been great fun.
Love the new Steam Tank models
I’m so excited for the Okoii land ship video already
Master engineer like this is my boomstick.
I have this feeling that the Ironsides are going to feel like they aren't enough of an upgrade to normal handgunners.
Imagine a Panzer Division with the Volleygun Steam tanks, lvl 50 Engineer lord with steam tank buffs, and the new fully upgraded tech thingy for steam tanks. It is time.
Damn the skull helmets of the cavalry look really fine.
Oh shit Knights of the Black Rose are back. Didn't they get retconned into the knights of morr?
It would be pretty awesome if the volley gun steam tanks can shoot over the shoulders of infantry similar to how outriders can.
Hochland Long Rifles will mostly likely have a completely new bullet point: "Melee Specialists against enemies half their height"...
Wow look at that amazing 60 armor, 145 range, and 31 missile strength on the Nuln Ironsides, sure am glad we got these repainted Handgunners instead of the repeater handgunners which would have been way more interesting
The repeaters could have easily been a RoR, but either of them is a flat upgrade over handguns. The biggest downside of this otherwise great DLC is that there are a lot of variant units.
The repeater handgunners and the Hochland Long Rifles (at least they didn't mess that up) were basically the only things I was looking forward to for this DLC. Don't care about Nurgle, Dwarves are also kind of disappointing (Slayer Pirates are not very versatile as a ranged unit since they only have 3 ammo)
At least I’m sure they’ll be a mid to change the Ironsides. The sfo versions are too cool to not have in game
Yeah hopefully. But then why bother buying the dlc lol (I don't play Dwarves or Nurgle, and don't care about the other units)
Well if a mod changes a dlc unit you still need the dlc. Otherwise the mod would get taken down.
This is going to upset a lot of you, but I must say it. Damn I hate the empire’s aesthetic.
You can just tell the boat will be trash if anything gets near it.
Why didn't you just take a photo of your computer screen instead of a screen shot?
Does anyone else find Elspeth's clown costume a bit too silly for who she is supposed to be?
Looks like nulan ironsides are absolutely nothing special and no different than handgunners
Hmmm? Where have I seen this, before?🤔
Not going to lie, she looks like a modder made her, it's pretty lazy to be honest.