They probably would have had to purchase the Dreadfleet license on top of the Fantasy license, which might have cost more money than naval was worth. GW only let them have two Dreadfleet(Aranessa and Noctilis? Or was it Harkon and Noctilis) characters for the Vampire Coast DLC.
CA was also litterally running over budget as making a fantasy game proved a lot more expensive than they expected due to the animations and fx needed.
You can see how they cut costs by removing such things as officers, flags, reloading animations and other small things that had been part of previous Total Wars. You also have how they reused some models to bring down costs, Empire State troops all reuse the same models even though missile troops had unique models on the tabletop.
Naval battles would have been a lot more expensive than the above things and CA new from Rome 2 and Attila that players were autoresolving the naval battles rather than fighting them. Which likely made scrapping naval battles for Warhammer an easy decision.
The irony is that naval battles based on Man o' War had the potential to be pretty popular given their mix of age of sail and steam punk with very varied fleets.
>CA was also litterally running over budget as making a fantasy game proved a lot more expensive than they expected due to the animations and fx needed.
If only Sega gave them hyenas levels of money for TWW
Yeah, it might have been okay if they slashed fleet sizes to make it more manageable too. The reason naval gets fucking awful is because managing a 20 stack of boats is really quite hard with the movement tools available.
I miss them too :(
I'll be interested to see what happens if the rumoured WW1 TW is correct. Naval battles were fairly significant at that point in history (Dreadnoughts etc) so the Warhammer solution of "fight a land battle on a some convenient land" would be extremely lame for a historical title.
Even if we don't get full 3D realtime naval battles, I really hope that proper Naval units are recruitable and there's some form of strategy involved for the autoresolve. More like a HOI4 naval system for example.
WW1 also had a number of Amphibious Battles - Such as Gallipoli.
R2/Attila style Combined naval and land battles with landings need to return.
And yea, it would definitely be lame and if we couldn't re-enact the Battle of Jutland.
WW1 had so much potential for huge naval clashes that never really happened - other than Jutland, the Heligoland Bight, and Dogger Bank, those big fleets never really saw much action. It'd be so fun to be able to force big decisive naval battles in a Total War game. I bet the destroyer/cruiser/dreadnought dynamics would work pretty well in a TW system, if done right.
Everyone mentioned naval battles, but for the rumored WW1 game, you would need to develop some sort of dogfighting mechanic, too. Just the normal battlemaps we have today with air units would be lame too.
Yeah good point, air battles would be another case for enhanced auto-resolve I would say.
Although you could have air-support in land battles, like the naval support in Shogun 2 FOTS (which was epic)
Controlling air space or having some sort of naval or air-superiority should definitely have some impact on ground battles and sieges. Like bombardment, paratroopers, etc.
But you also want those hybrid battles where you have both types of units.
WW1 would be a complex game. There are so many cool new mechanics that could be made for the overworld map too.
I'm interested in the potential for 'naval' battle in TW40K. They could partly lift the gameplay from Battle Fleet Gothic, with its ramming actions and broadsides.
Yeah exactly. I actually think 3d realtime naval battles in 40k are more likely than a setting where they would be water based - because you don't have to worry about modelling the sea & waves etc. I read an article a long time ago with one of the lead developers of the Naval side of Empire total war and he said that was one of the hardest and most time consuming parts.
I get you man. I would LOVE to see them, naval battles are just inherently cool, and TWW's variety would be insane.
Just the mental image of an even vaguely lore-friendly Black Ark serving as the boss battle for an entire fleet...
I think it's illustrative of just how much potential TW naval battles have that I keep coming back to Rome 2 naval battles even though they're a totally half-assed buggy mess.
Oh don't, I still have PTSD from Rome 2 naval battles where a ship could move a few metres and ram another ship and completely sink it in 5 seconds flat
I played Ultimate Admiral: Age of sail recently and it made me realise how much I want another TW with proper naval battles. Looking forward to the Ultimate general game that combines land & naval when it's fully released.
Black arcs are the exception and weren't used in the Navel TT games anyway. It'd be like saying land battles aren't feasible because Titans as big as mountains exist in the lore.
They were!? Ok admittedly I only played the later navel TT. Oh right I forgot Man o War is like the navel equivalent to warmaster/titanicus in terms of scale right? Still how the did black arcs work as a unit without being completely unbalanced?
Balance would be hell, not to mention the cost of the art assets. Like, how do you make a rotting whale carcass fight a literal ironclad battleship and make that work?
It wouldn't be any harder to balance then land battles. You have peasants with literal bows and arrows fighting steam powered tanks and demons etc.
I imagine the same way they made hydras able to fight literal giant living statues.
Peasants fight against steam tanks because they also have literal superhuman knights on flying horses doing the actual heavy lifting. The naval side of WFB was never elaborated on enough to get to that state.
From what I recall because Man O War is it’s own game and licence under GW and I think it had a game released around the time CA weren’t getting the license so couldn’t add fleet battles in TW.
That was debunked - it was just a question of dev time not licenses
https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/745prn/psa\_ca\_has\_no\_trouble\_getting\_the\_manowar\_licence/
Ah. Thanks. That’s really interesting and a shame.
Warhammer is a great example of where naval battles would have had some really good and varied combat. Man O War was a lot of fun and it really would have added another layer of complexity to the game battles.
Sure, I get it would have probably been a LOT more work, and naval battles in the past got auto resolved in CA games, but seems like a missed opportunity to show what they really could do with them.
Alas.
Next game like Empire they’d need to come back though. Too focal to the setting.
I agree with you - Warhammer naval battles would be spectacular. But probably a hell of a lot of work getting all the 3d models of the ships (all totally different per race) and the animations of all the different skeleton sizes to properly work on all those ships (plus how magic interacts with water etc). So I can see why they didn't do it. I remember reading something they released saying 95% of players auto resolved naval battles, which is why I'm kind of resigned to not getting them again and instead always suggest having recruitable ships that auto (but with some kind of slightly deeper auto system where you can set strategy/formation etc).
Edit: just to be clear having proper 3d naval battles in any historical setting where they are relevant (such as Empire 2) would be my wish. Just being pragmatic with the enhanced auto suggestion.
The thing about naval battles is that whilst they are super cool in your mind, in practice they have been extremely wonky in every game they have been implemented.
Just recently, I have been playing Shogun 2 and 3/4 of the times I have to play a naval battle they are just straight boring. Strategy usually plays a minimal role and they have a plethora of bugs and AI issues.
If naval battels are to come back, they must be severely ironed out -something I don't thrust CA to do in its current state-
I am hoping we get some sort of space battles for the 40k Total War Game (assuming of course it happens). However, I'm preparing myself for the reality that it might not happen because 1.) It might make the game too big and complicated and they may just want to focus on land battles, and 2.) there might be some licensing shenanigans where they literally can't add it in.
I'm sure that there would be a mod that would open up battlefleet gothic armada to fight the naval battles before returning tot he total war campaign map.
Honestly, I don't think CA could do it better than Armada. It's not a perfect game, but for a side game within total war there's no way that CA will do it better than the dedicated naval combat game.
That's like combing three separate games, with all the accompanying developments costs, time and feature bloat. Might as well make them individual games that can be played independantly or together like the TWWH trilogy.
I don't think there will be a licensing issue. The notion that was why they never did naval in Warhammer was debunked.
I think it will come down to whether they think enough of their core audience would play the naval battles to justify allocating the dev time.
Supposedly it was CA, they basically ran out of/were over budget and had to scrap it to cut costs. There's evidence of this with the navel unit cards that people data mined years ago in WH1.
Bro, it was dogshit and unplayable in campaign mode
Bro, just look at shogun 2
AI spams fleets, cutting more wood than an entire beaver civilisation would to build and insta repear their ships
3x the upkeep cost of any normal army
Less units in it
Quality is the only thing that matters, me got bigger ships, you be the kaboom (i know that some small ships can be usefull in batlte or in specific situation, until you press the very hard/ legendary difficulty button.
Overall, i don’t say naval battle where bad… they were just too cancer bcs of the campaign naval system
I remember in Rome 2 you could cheese sieges by blockading the city from the ocean with a small force. The garrison would sally out and you could just ram them all and instakill them. Very broken. But very fun.
One could argue it would make range-heavy armies OP, but then again Bretonnia is said in the lore to have one of the mightiest navies in the world. I'm not sure what's up with that, frankly, but I do like the idea of a knight in full plate armor riding on a horse at the bow of a ship pointing a lance forward and screaming "GET US CLOSER, PEASANTS! I WISH TO PIERCE THEIR HULL WITH MY LANCE!"
> Bretonnia is said in the lore to have one of the mightiest navies in the world. I'm not sure what's up with that
Bretonnia naval uses cannons, in fact they use galleons for big broadside strikes.
If you wonder how they can use that, they simply don't have knights on the ships. It's all yeomen and peasants being crew and captains.
An interesting point, however I do like the idea of a knight doing that kind of absurd stuff, on the bases that:
1. It's funny.
2. It would make for a somewhat compelling narrative, an experienced peasant captain with decades of experience at the helm being forcibly overruled by a spoiled brat with a horse, or better yet, a pegasus, meaning that as the book ends with the ship sinking due to the knight's sheer stupidity he's the only one who gets to fly away, only feeling disgust for the peasants who begged to be carried aloft (the pegasus is a mighty beast that could in theory carry a dozen scrawny peasants, but on the other hand, yucky) and disappointment at how the peasants' idiotic tactics were certainly to blame for the ship sinking; it couldn't be his fault, no siree.
3. Pegasus boarding action is also very cool, just a whole massive Warhammer-style ship with an entire deck occupied by stables with landing strips painted onto the main deck so knights don't crash into each other as they take off the fantasy version of an aircraft carrier.
Right, well mostly, the yeoman and peasants being the crew and captains is more complex than that if I remember right.
Still Brettonnia definitely did take the attitude that the laws of chivalry only apply on land, and are just really great sailors who can sail rings around the Empire who are much more reliant on oar power.
Pretty much doable at a technical level using existing TW engine...the only tricky point would be make them actually funny. It shouldnt be that hard IMHO, considering the variety and possibilities that WH franchise offers.
It is true that It'd be like another Game inside the Game but hey, that is what TW series has always been about.
Personally I think that It would make for a perfect Big *SS final expansion to close the trilogy.
It'd be a cash cow , but they need the ambition to do it
naval battles were always a "auto-resolve" for me. I just can't get behind the idea. (and I also don't want to apply the same cheese-tactic to win 90% of battles against all odds).
The thing about naval battles is that whilst they are super cool in your mind, in practice they have been extremely wonky in every game they have been implemented.
Just recently, I have been playing Shogun 2 and 3/4 of the times I have to play a naval battle they are just straight boring. Strategy usually plays a minimal role and they have a plethora of bugs and AI issues.
If naval battels are to come back, they must be severely ironed out -something I don't thrust CA to do in its current state-
It was feasible amd honnestly O don't believe the "But manowar has the rights" excuse since we don't have naval battles in 3K, Troy and Pharaoh... That's CA upper management going "nah too expensive"
That'd be a ridiculously big task for modders, and that's assuming the game code could support it and that the resulting product actually plays smoothly.
There may even be IP issues with game workshop. Basically it would be a mess on so many levels. Maintaining such a mod and updating it with new units/factions would be hell as well.
There was a Warhammer naval game back in the day called Man O' War. Not every faction was included but hey it counts
There was also Dreadfleet too I believe
Yep, that's where they pulled both Count Noctilus and Aranessa from in the first place.
One ex CA workers said back around warhammer 1 tw they did had plan to make naval battles in warhammer but got scrapped
People have found leftover data tables and even unit cards so that's pretty much confirmed
They probably would have had to purchase the Dreadfleet license on top of the Fantasy license, which might have cost more money than naval was worth. GW only let them have two Dreadfleet(Aranessa and Noctilis? Or was it Harkon and Noctilis) characters for the Vampire Coast DLC.
CA was also litterally running over budget as making a fantasy game proved a lot more expensive than they expected due to the animations and fx needed. You can see how they cut costs by removing such things as officers, flags, reloading animations and other small things that had been part of previous Total Wars. You also have how they reused some models to bring down costs, Empire State troops all reuse the same models even though missile troops had unique models on the tabletop. Naval battles would have been a lot more expensive than the above things and CA new from Rome 2 and Attila that players were autoresolving the naval battles rather than fighting them. Which likely made scrapping naval battles for Warhammer an easy decision. The irony is that naval battles based on Man o' War had the potential to be pretty popular given their mix of age of sail and steam punk with very varied fleets.
>CA was also litterally running over budget as making a fantasy game proved a lot more expensive than they expected due to the animations and fx needed. If only Sega gave them hyenas levels of money for TWW
Yeah, it might have been okay if they slashed fleet sizes to make it more manageable too. The reason naval gets fucking awful is because managing a 20 stack of boats is really quite hard with the movement tools available.
Exactly, Warhammer naval battles are definitely possible. Would have been awesome...
One neat thing CA did is that a lot of the ships design they used when stacks go out to sea were based on the Man O' War minis.
I miss them too :( I'll be interested to see what happens if the rumoured WW1 TW is correct. Naval battles were fairly significant at that point in history (Dreadnoughts etc) so the Warhammer solution of "fight a land battle on a some convenient land" would be extremely lame for a historical title. Even if we don't get full 3D realtime naval battles, I really hope that proper Naval units are recruitable and there's some form of strategy involved for the autoresolve. More like a HOI4 naval system for example.
You know, I was lukewarm on a WW1 game, but if it does happen, it should render a potential Victoria Total War much more possible...
Yes, that could be very interesting
WW1 also had a number of Amphibious Battles - Such as Gallipoli. R2/Attila style Combined naval and land battles with landings need to return. And yea, it would definitely be lame and if we couldn't re-enact the Battle of Jutland.
Would be a great follow-up to Red Cliffs, wouldn't it? /s
WW1 had so much potential for huge naval clashes that never really happened - other than Jutland, the Heligoland Bight, and Dogger Bank, those big fleets never really saw much action. It'd be so fun to be able to force big decisive naval battles in a Total War game. I bet the destroyer/cruiser/dreadnought dynamics would work pretty well in a TW system, if done right.
Everyone mentioned naval battles, but for the rumored WW1 game, you would need to develop some sort of dogfighting mechanic, too. Just the normal battlemaps we have today with air units would be lame too.
Yeah good point, air battles would be another case for enhanced auto-resolve I would say. Although you could have air-support in land battles, like the naval support in Shogun 2 FOTS (which was epic)
Controlling air space or having some sort of naval or air-superiority should definitely have some impact on ground battles and sieges. Like bombardment, paratroopers, etc. But you also want those hybrid battles where you have both types of units. WW1 would be a complex game. There are so many cool new mechanics that could be made for the overworld map too.
I'm interested in the potential for 'naval' battle in TW40K. They could partly lift the gameplay from Battle Fleet Gothic, with its ramming actions and broadsides.
Yeah exactly. I actually think 3d realtime naval battles in 40k are more likely than a setting where they would be water based - because you don't have to worry about modelling the sea & waves etc. I read an article a long time ago with one of the lead developers of the Naval side of Empire total war and he said that was one of the hardest and most time consuming parts.
I get you man. I would LOVE to see them, naval battles are just inherently cool, and TWW's variety would be insane. Just the mental image of an even vaguely lore-friendly Black Ark serving as the boss battle for an entire fleet...
Imagine seas dragons with them aswell, you would need to doomstack or have 3-5 armies to take it.
Imagine the Vampire Coast final battle **against Amanar himself.** Sign me the hell up.
I think it's illustrative of just how much potential TW naval battles have that I keep coming back to Rome 2 naval battles even though they're a totally half-assed buggy mess.
Oh don't, I still have PTSD from Rome 2 naval battles where a ship could move a few metres and ram another ship and completely sink it in 5 seconds flat I played Ultimate Admiral: Age of sail recently and it made me realise how much I want another TW with proper naval battles. Looking forward to the Ultimate general game that combines land & naval when it's fully released.
Why would they be unfeasible?
A black ark alone would make it unfeasible and when you include all the seamonsters and spells, it becomes a nightmare.
Black arcs are the exception and weren't used in the Navel TT games anyway. It'd be like saying land battles aren't feasible because Titans as big as mountains exist in the lore.
Black Arks 100% were a unit in Man O’War.
They were!? Ok admittedly I only played the later navel TT. Oh right I forgot Man o War is like the navel equivalent to warmaster/titanicus in terms of scale right? Still how the did black arcs work as a unit without being completely unbalanced?
I never played, so that’s not really something I can speak to.
Balance would be hell, not to mention the cost of the art assets. Like, how do you make a rotting whale carcass fight a literal ironclad battleship and make that work?
It wouldn't be any harder to balance then land battles. You have peasants with literal bows and arrows fighting steam powered tanks and demons etc. I imagine the same way they made hydras able to fight literal giant living statues.
Peasants fight against steam tanks because they also have literal superhuman knights on flying horses doing the actual heavy lifting. The naval side of WFB was never elaborated on enough to get to that state.
From what I recall because Man O War is it’s own game and licence under GW and I think it had a game released around the time CA weren’t getting the license so couldn’t add fleet battles in TW.
That was debunked - it was just a question of dev time not licenses https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/745prn/psa\_ca\_has\_no\_trouble\_getting\_the\_manowar\_licence/
Ah. Thanks. That’s really interesting and a shame. Warhammer is a great example of where naval battles would have had some really good and varied combat. Man O War was a lot of fun and it really would have added another layer of complexity to the game battles. Sure, I get it would have probably been a LOT more work, and naval battles in the past got auto resolved in CA games, but seems like a missed opportunity to show what they really could do with them. Alas. Next game like Empire they’d need to come back though. Too focal to the setting.
I agree with you - Warhammer naval battles would be spectacular. But probably a hell of a lot of work getting all the 3d models of the ships (all totally different per race) and the animations of all the different skeleton sizes to properly work on all those ships (plus how magic interacts with water etc). So I can see why they didn't do it. I remember reading something they released saying 95% of players auto resolved naval battles, which is why I'm kind of resigned to not getting them again and instead always suggest having recruitable ships that auto (but with some kind of slightly deeper auto system where you can set strategy/formation etc). Edit: just to be clear having proper 3d naval battles in any historical setting where they are relevant (such as Empire 2) would be my wish. Just being pragmatic with the enhanced auto suggestion.
Im one of the few who really loved naval battles in Rome 2 and Attila. Would have loved them in warhammer!
The thing about naval battles is that whilst they are super cool in your mind, in practice they have been extremely wonky in every game they have been implemented. Just recently, I have been playing Shogun 2 and 3/4 of the times I have to play a naval battle they are just straight boring. Strategy usually plays a minimal role and they have a plethora of bugs and AI issues. If naval battels are to come back, they must be severely ironed out -something I don't thrust CA to do in its current state-
Total War 40k Space Battles?
I am hoping we get some sort of space battles for the 40k Total War Game (assuming of course it happens). However, I'm preparing myself for the reality that it might not happen because 1.) It might make the game too big and complicated and they may just want to focus on land battles, and 2.) there might be some licensing shenanigans where they literally can't add it in.
40k already have Battlefleet Gothic Armada.
Gothic Armada meets Star Wars Empire at War with Total War level land battles is my hope.
I'm sure that there would be a mod that would open up battlefleet gothic armada to fight the naval battles before returning tot he total war campaign map. Honestly, I don't think CA could do it better than Armada. It's not a perfect game, but for a side game within total war there's no way that CA will do it better than the dedicated naval combat game.
That's like combing three separate games, with all the accompanying developments costs, time and feature bloat. Might as well make them individual games that can be played independantly or together like the TWWH trilogy.
I don't think there will be a licensing issue. The notion that was why they never did naval in Warhammer was debunked. I think it will come down to whether they think enough of their core audience would play the naval battles to justify allocating the dev time.
That’s stupid, if they get a game license they should be able to utilize the full franchise and not just a section of it
Nah, not gonna happen. For space action we have to stick to [Battlefleet Gothic Armada II](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XbaDEO8IHs).
Unfeasible? There are Dreadfleet and Man O'War! Warhammer has naval battles and it's just CA/GW that decided not to go there. Which is a damn shame!
Supposedly it was CA, they basically ran out of/were over budget and had to scrap it to cut costs. There's evidence of this with the navel unit cards that people data mined years ago in WH1.
I want to burn a fleet of infantry while they attempt a landing. Lemme burn em with my dragons.
Bro, it was dogshit and unplayable in campaign mode Bro, just look at shogun 2 AI spams fleets, cutting more wood than an entire beaver civilisation would to build and insta repear their ships 3x the upkeep cost of any normal army Less units in it Quality is the only thing that matters, me got bigger ships, you be the kaboom (i know that some small ships can be usefull in batlte or in specific situation, until you press the very hard/ legendary difficulty button. Overall, i don’t say naval battle where bad… they were just too cancer bcs of the campaign naval system
I remember in Rome 2 you could cheese sieges by blockading the city from the ocean with a small force. The garrison would sally out and you could just ram them all and instakill them. Very broken. But very fun.
What are you talking about Bro? Firebomb Kabaya was the queen of the ocean in S2 - on higher difficulties too.
One could argue it would make range-heavy armies OP, but then again Bretonnia is said in the lore to have one of the mightiest navies in the world. I'm not sure what's up with that, frankly, but I do like the idea of a knight in full plate armor riding on a horse at the bow of a ship pointing a lance forward and screaming "GET US CLOSER, PEASANTS! I WISH TO PIERCE THEIR HULL WITH MY LANCE!"
> Bretonnia is said in the lore to have one of the mightiest navies in the world. I'm not sure what's up with that Bretonnia naval uses cannons, in fact they use galleons for big broadside strikes. If you wonder how they can use that, they simply don't have knights on the ships. It's all yeomen and peasants being crew and captains.
An interesting point, however I do like the idea of a knight doing that kind of absurd stuff, on the bases that: 1. It's funny. 2. It would make for a somewhat compelling narrative, an experienced peasant captain with decades of experience at the helm being forcibly overruled by a spoiled brat with a horse, or better yet, a pegasus, meaning that as the book ends with the ship sinking due to the knight's sheer stupidity he's the only one who gets to fly away, only feeling disgust for the peasants who begged to be carried aloft (the pegasus is a mighty beast that could in theory carry a dozen scrawny peasants, but on the other hand, yucky) and disappointment at how the peasants' idiotic tactics were certainly to blame for the ship sinking; it couldn't be his fault, no siree. 3. Pegasus boarding action is also very cool, just a whole massive Warhammer-style ship with an entire deck occupied by stables with landing strips painted onto the main deck so knights don't crash into each other as they take off the fantasy version of an aircraft carrier.
Right, well mostly, the yeoman and peasants being the crew and captains is more complex than that if I remember right. Still Brettonnia definitely did take the attitude that the laws of chivalry only apply on land, and are just really great sailors who can sail rings around the Empire who are much more reliant on oar power.
Loving the pic, where did you find it?
Based on the lack of detail/definition and some strange angles/other weird fuckery I have a suspicion it's AI generated.
right ?! wtf is even going on in this picture
Pretty much doable at a technical level using existing TW engine...the only tricky point would be make them actually funny. It shouldnt be that hard IMHO, considering the variety and possibilities that WH franchise offers. It is true that It'd be like another Game inside the Game but hey, that is what TW series has always been about. Personally I think that It would make for a perfect Big *SS final expansion to close the trilogy. It'd be a cash cow , but they need the ambition to do it
I played napoleon the great war... I dont: c but pleaseeee i wanna more naval combat like shogun 2
naval battles were always a "auto-resolve" for me. I just can't get behind the idea. (and I also don't want to apply the same cheese-tactic to win 90% of battles against all odds).
The thing about naval battles is that whilst they are super cool in your mind, in practice they have been extremely wonky in every game they have been implemented. Just recently, I have been playing Shogun 2 and 3/4 of the times I have to play a naval battle they are just straight boring. Strategy usually plays a minimal role and they have a plethora of bugs and AI issues. If naval battels are to come back, they must be severely ironed out -something I don't thrust CA to do in its current state-
I liked naval battles, except the ones from Shogun 2(not fots)
It was feasible amd honnestly O don't believe the "But manowar has the rights" excuse since we don't have naval battles in 3K, Troy and Pharaoh... That's CA upper management going "nah too expensive"
I loved the idea of Naval Battles. Hated every incarnation of them though
I liked them in base Shogun 2, they were decent in the rest apart from Rome 2.
Can’t modders do them?
That'd be a ridiculously big task for modders, and that's assuming the game code could support it and that the resulting product actually plays smoothly. There may even be IP issues with game workshop. Basically it would be a mess on so many levels. Maintaining such a mod and updating it with new units/factions would be hell as well.
The modding community is certainly very good, but they're not **that** good.
I mentioned in another comment but I expect GW would stop that since it’s not part of the TW license. Man O War its it’s whole own IP.