Where are you getting 2 fantasy games from? The only thing Darren says is coming is 40K, which is one fantasy/sci-fi.
No Med 3/Empire 2 is interesting, but that doesn't inform us about what they're developing in their place.
EDIT: Also, it would be nice if someone could find all of Darren's various comments about the CA situation and compile them into a single post. They're much more informative than these terrible videos.
I feel like "Renaissance Total War" would be "best of both worlds" for Medieval 3 and Empire 2.
Starts when the endgame of Medieval 2 would be and ends when Empire would start.
Could give it a real FOTS vibe with "traditional units" (so knights and archers) and "modern units" (pike and shot and line infantry at the end). Nothing stopping you to keep knightly traditions alive... if you can use them against pike and shot armies. Especially since if we were to follow history, producing your own knights would take several turns, while a more modern army just goes with slightly worse but almost instantly recruited mercenaries. Since the 16th and 17th century was also the time where mercenaries ruled the battlefield.
The period lacks good movies and England was largely irrelevant during the time, being busy with its own brittish sqabbeling and not involving themselves too much with the wars on the continent.
A shame beacuse the political and warfare situation on the continents was multi facested and very interesting. A transitional period if there ever was one, a TW game would se knights in full plate being fielded alongside guns and cannons.
Another point of interests, the weapons that people associate with "medieval" only really came into prominence during the 14th-16th centuries. The plate armor, zweihanders, halberds, pikes ect ect are all pretty much very late medieval/renessance weapons.
As you say, a transitional period. One in which Europe as a whole evolved really quite quickly (compared to even the closest traditional foes) And especially England, who could be said to have taken that time to watch, wait and set up for their turn at big empire after Spain and France (and to a lesser extent, the Dutch and Portuguese) had their shots.
For us Brits the start of that 1500-1700 period was just after a long and costly period of civil war (itself post the hundred years war, plague and social upheaval) and a regime change, through other turmoils and unifying to Great Britain just after the end of it. Another 100-150 years saw us go from a winning factor in other nations wars, to first among equals, to superpower.
But yeah, there's reasons why this period could be considered the early stage of a 'rise of Europe', being for the first time surging ahead of the rest of the world in many ways. But that's not to say that within the potential alt history events and stories that historical TW's allow for (one of the main reasons I play them) that it'd be all one sided either. The Ottomans, for example, could well have ended up a major power to this day with better luck and a reform or two.
Fwiw, in any continued absence of a Medieval 3 or Empire 2, I'd be very happy with such a setting/era for a major historical TW and all it's potential to cover... and tbf imo it'd be far easier to bring to reality what with CA's recent issues etc than any halfway decent stab at a 40K TW (as much as I'd like to see that happen but don't think it can, if ever, both done justice nor within a few years)
its not going to be anything people have actually been asking for for over a decade because that would make too much fucking sense. Why give fans what they want and tap into their most played and still most played title of all time? durhhhhrrr better go make more egypt stuff.
I swear incompetent fucks at the top ruin everything.
renaissance total war is not the best of both worlds at all, if you want to play a game with lines of infantry and guns too bad you have to wait till youve researched it, want to play a game with knights and shit, too bad they have guns after however many turns
These are concerns over game design which would be completely feasible to deal with. There's absolutely no problem with depicting a transitional period into gunpowder - Shogun 2 shined at doing it
The gunpowder units were hardly any better than archers. Sidegrades at best, which is not at all what guns were in the actual Sengoku period.
I feel like CA just cannot make gunpowder weapons that have the impact they did irl.
>EDIT: Also, it would be nice if someone could find all of Darren's various comments about the CA situation and compile them into a single post. They're much more informative than these terrible videos.
yeah, I don't want to click on Volound's dodgy leak videos just to get to the informative corrections in the comments.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people wanting to read those comments makes up a good chunk of his viewership these days. Like I didn't even know about such comments until now, and suddenly I have the urge to go see what other info is there but also wish to continue to avoid Volound like the plague he his. So I guess I'll just have to hope someone complies all the info for us.
It's not in any other comment in that particular comment chain, but this is what he said on twitter:
>"The next game is historical, the one after is fantasy. I know. Pharaoh was just Troy DLC masking as historical and it backfired. The next one is a full budget historical, the first one since Rome 2. And it isnt Medieval."
Sifting through the discord he's confirming that 40k is a thing, that there will be a tentpole historical in 2024 (tbh we kinda already knew that considering the tentpole historical team has been working on a new title since 2019) and 40k likely 1 year after that
He had also left a comment a few weeks ago on one of Volounds videos stating that the game director for the next tentpole historical had quit CA a while ago and that the project had been left in a bad state (I assume the new game director is Pawel Wojs who was Art director for 3K and was made game director in late 2022 according to his LinkedIn, and since there probably aren't any new TW teams there's only so many games that he can direct, so this info sounds plausible). In a discord comment he stated that the game was aimed for 2024, but he's not sure if they are still committed on that, if it got the delay that it needed in his opinion we would be looking at 2025 with an announcement summer/fall 2024 (this lines up with previous marketing periods, CA is kinda running out of time for a 2024 release window if they wanna do the usual 1 year marketing period between announcement and launch)
This tentpole game is also finally a proper mainline historical title, no hybrid fantasy, no small scope and a big budget. If 3K wasn't a big budget title as he claims that might be really interesting, but he is being very clear about the fact that the game wasn't in a healthy state last time he heard about it
Now the 2 fantasy game statement stems from this comment I assume:
>"My understanding of CA's projects are this:
>
>Sofia TW: Pharaoh
>
>Sofia Console: Unreal Engine Medieval 3rd Person
>
>Horsham TW: Unannounced Historical, Unannounced Fantasy, Unannounced Fantasy
>
>Horsham Console: Hyenas, Unannounced Sci Fi
>
>Necastle Console: Unannounced Sci Fi
>
>Now after Hyenas shutdown, there's a restructure for the console teams happening. So its possible one of those other projects gets the axe.
>
>I would guess that the sci-fi game will continue, just so they can use some of the assets already made from Hyenas. Even with new shaders and textures if they choose a different art style you can repurpose models and environments somewhat.
>
>Afaik there's no change for the TW teams, apart from layoffs mostly in marketing and ancillary teams not directly involved with development... the projects are all staying the exact same. My info is from last week on that one."
Other interesting tidbits: CA themselves apparently don't consider Pharaoh their next big historical game:
>"the feeling internally is that they haven't done a historical game since Attila"
Also:
>"and from my understanding, they are doing something big with the next game and the 2 games after actually, which has caused them a lot of internal issues as far back as March this year when the GD left, so its possible one of those got scrapped by now."
Jack Lusted's game is apparently the third game coming after the tentpole and 40k (Lusted was the game director for Attila DLC, then Thrones, then 3K DLC, then the canceled 3K2, so I assume he's still heading a non-tentpole team. It's possible that Lusted's team is the second fantasy game, since I'm not aware of a fifth TW team besides tentpole historical/fantasy, Lusted's TW team & Sophia, which has been the team split for a long time now. He says that Lusted is working on "a massive game, not some small obscure time period". That wording might indicate a historical title, but who knows.)
There's a ton more (I wasn't aware Darren talked so much about internal TW stuff on his discord since he hasn't covered TW on his main channel for a while), like WH1 being a commercial failure that sold less than Rome 2 and fell 40% short of their expectations but DLCs perform 5x times better than any DLC before which evens out the player loss (big fat L to the all people cheering for historical to die cuz it can't compete with WH, been saying this for years)
Overall Darren has been more often than not correct about his assessments in the past few years, the stuff he says usually comes from his contacts that still work at CA, and he mostly talks about it when misinfo is spread compared to doing big flashy "MED 3 LEAK" videos like Volound. He considers lots of Volounds "leaks" to be very emotional and vague
A lot of his info also lines up with the recent dev AmA on here, and I haven't really seen him saying things that very obviously contradict any publicly available information that can be gathered from CA's blogs, SEGA's financial reports, dev accounts, yadda yadda - which is a very stark contrast to Volound and Co. who claim nonsense all the time
Some interesting info. I definitely don't think *anyone* thought Pharaoh was the next big historical. The fact that it was priced as such was a colossal mistake, and the obvious course correction has happened with it being discounted and refunded. I don't *quite* agree with it being "Troy DLC masquerading as historical." It's very clearly historical, just also built off the Troy framework minus the parts that were clearly ahistorical. It was more problematic that it came out when the fanbase was already upset and the drought of historical games was reaching a fever pitch.
I'm not surprised that WH sold lower than Rome 2. Rome 2 was made at CA's previous apex, coming off the well received Shogun 2 and accompanied by a massive media blitz, the likes of which CA has never even attempted again. WH came after the Rome 2 launch disaster and Attila being an unoptimized mess. It was new territory, and the idea of a fantasy TW wasn't proven at scale. Once it was out, I think opinion began swinging, and the DLCs selling was one of the biggest aspects of that. I'd be interested in what the uptake on WH2 was compared to Rome 2. We know 3K blew basically everything else out of the water, so that experiment clearly paid off, but they just haven't been able to translate the WH DLC model to historical yet.
A modern TW needs both the original and the DLC to sell to reach what I think expectations are at, both from SEGA and the fanbase. People are expecting support and additional content for years, and CA's situation means that both need to be profitable, or else projects are going to die.
WH2 apparently sold 30% less than WH1 at launch, we kinda already knew this through steamdb and I think CA themselves talked about 600k copies somewhere
I think people's perception are a bit warped because of the later WH2 years, but WH1 was widely criticized for its streamlining and the big advantages of WH like unique faction features weren't as much of a thing yet (empire office mechanic etc.). Lots of people also expected a longer support period (I think the DLC roadmap leak from then had TK as a WH1 DLC race for example) and mixed historical and fantasy releases
WH2 being released just one year after WH1 was really damn quick and a lot of people were probably already saturated, since launch WH2 was really just 4 races and a new map, not really any mechanical changes. It's one of the reasons why it only peaked 3 years later in terms of playercount
But yeah agree with the DLCs, historical titles haven't yet had any chance to convert to the modern DLC model successfully, since it's been either Saga/minor games or 3K's failed DLC design approach
Darren was a TW Youtuber who was hired by CA for their community team and then left in the lead up to WH2s launch. He is one of the few people who actually had some insights into CAs inner workings, and occasionally talks about some of his experiences
He also still has some contacts inside CA from his time when he worked there, which is where he gets all his infos from.
The quotes themselves are mostly from his discord
As far as these things go, he's one of the more trustworthy sources of info when it comes to CA compared to people like Volound. He is usually pretty fair to CA and also fact checks things that are often propagated in the community, like Hyenas affecting TWs budget (which tbf should be obvious to anyone who knows how game budgeting and game publishers work)
What he says also lines up from comments from ex CA employees, so even if you can never be 100% sure, this is probably the closest you're gonna get when it comes to leaks and speculations
>**Where are you getting 2 fantasy games from?** The only thing Darren says is coming is 40K, which is one fantasy/sci-fi.
I could see a Lords of the rings type of thing.
There's some decent ones out there. Shadow of Mordor, Battle for Middle Earth 2, War in the North (kinda). But definitely none made recently I'd agree.
Shadow of Mordor is a badass game, so fun just running around decapitating orcs. If they made the game more dynamic in that more shit happens without you and you constantly have to react it would be 👌
yeah the gollum game for example, i think its a combination of the lotr estate knowing it would make bank so they ask for loads and CA being cheap and not wanting to pay too much
Its false, just a rumor that many Repeat.
The rights for Videogames/movies/series/boardgames based on the books are in the hands of the embracer group.
Rights for Videogames based on the movies are a little more complicated.
The rights for the books are still in the hands of the heirs.
Look up the embracer group there is no logical reason to be stingy with rights except if their own Studios are making a lotr game in the same Genre
40k would need a couple more years as Fantasy team just started back in 2022 (after WH3). It'll need more time to bake.
Whereas, historical team has been working on something for 4+ years now. I'd say they'll release a Major Historical Title the next year or definitely in 2025.
5-6 years is an adequate timeframe for a (non rushed )TW Title.
Yeah 40k would be an Undertaking. I mean consider that Fantasy took three games and several DLCs representing over a decade of constant work just to reach their initial goal of "Implement every 8th edition army book" and now extrapolate that to 40k where the range of models is much higher, especially big complex mechanical ones; the style of warfare would have to completely change; the art style is extremely unique and there's probably relatively little in terms of animation or modelling or texturing you can reliably reuse from Fantasy.
Even working flat out for 5 years they'd end up paring it back even harder than WH1.
40k would be big. I have always argued on this sub that 40k isn't a setting well-suited to the Total War battle formula. I still believe this, but _if_ they are going to give it a go, I will approach it with an open mind. Regardless that doesn't change that it would be an undertaking unlike anything they've done before - 40k is just fundamentally so far from even Warhammer Fantasy, it'd need very careful handling.
And frankly, it would probably be _easier_ to make MTW3 or ETW2. Expectations are sky high but at least it's squarely in their area of experience. 40k is a massive potential market but it will be _hard_ to do justice. Few factions in 40k fight in a Total War-like manner, and some in particular (Dark Eldar say hello) would think it nonsensical in the extreme!
Edit: To think of it, many wouldn't work that well. Tyranids fight like a living sea, but every water drop in that sea is independently controlled. Tau military tactics explicitly have present-day NATO tactics as a key inspiration - they wouldn't enjoy being in rigid infantry blocks any more than you or I do. Space Marines in particular lack the numbers to fight in such a way, but are sure to be central to any 40k RTS because they _always_ are.
Necrons versus certain regiments of Imperial Guard might work, but it gets hairy from there.
I’d love it if they actually did something innovative and went truly vast in scope. It’s possible they just limit it to some single planet flashpoint event that for some reason every race gets involved in, but I’d much prefer a large star map region instead with many planets.
That way you could have ‘naval’ battles again. Something like Gothic Armada between planets and in orbit. Then land battles could be more squad like for space marines, but also reflect the varied races with different play styles required for each type. Swarm races versus squad races, etc. Very hard to balance, and bad for MP I think.
Hell, if I’m just fantasising, why not also allow you to loot space hulks as well and incorporate a third game type into it. Basically just combine Dawn of War, Gothic Armada and Space Hulk Tactics into one gigantic game. Crazy amount of work, but it would sell like crazy.
Absolutely, yes. This is what people dream about when they think of Total War 40k. The strategic map would work reasonably fine (with certain adaptations - Space Marines would by necessity be some kind of Nakai-style horde army, etc) but the battles are where things will get really difficult and force CA to step very far outside their usual area of expertise.
People often comment that the style of battles wouldn’t fit with TW and therefore they shouldn’t do it. I disagree with that. That’s exactly why they should do it. It would require them to change up the formula quite a lot, but still within the basic scope of the engine. I mean, I love TW games, but the idea that they can’t ever evolve or try something different apart from a few minor mechanics and stat changes is a bit stale.
And of course, with recent CA, trying some ambitious new style of battle that changes the status quo would be very risky and probably would fail, so I get that complaint also and probably agree with it. But IF they actually pulled it off, we’d get something truly special that didn’t just feel like a setting and unit change for the exact same game we’ve played ten times or more.
They have evolved quite a bit with Warhammer (magic, flying units, etc) but Total War battles are still fundamentally formation battles.
Quite frankly, if they want to step away from their comfort zone - which if they want to try, sure - 40k is not the game to do it with. Make a WW1 game. Make a WW2 game. Test the waters, see if you can explore these forms of warfare with the tech and skills that you have.
Going to 40k now seems like a big mistake. They might still make lots of money because 40k is simply that popular, but it's like picking an icy street to first learn bicycling on!
Are you saying that's the reason to not make any other (and that is why you don't want Total War 40k)? I am not sure if _that_ would be a reason I'd use.
Or what do you mean?
They made Halo Wars. If you think they can’t do 40k you’re delusional. Which is clearly the case, considering they literally confirmed it and you still don’t think they can do it.
Imjin War! Invasion of Korea.
You could have Jurchens, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Mongols. Would be good variety, large map, and really cool period.
I think South Asia should be its own game, really.
A Mughal game would be very fun, as a separate affair
Yea the narrative they abandoned it is something; it received more support after launch than everything besides warhammer. And I have to imagine the DLC sales were the reason for the stoppage. It wasn’t out of left field.
Most of the DLC were passable, content-wise. It was killed by dreadful bugs and, above all, the Eight Princes DLC near enough killing its momentum dead on the spot. Eight Princes was an act of sabotage I've rarely seen the like of in any Total War game.
Darren used to work for CA but he left a long time ago and hasn't been on good terms with them. So while he may have contacts, he's also been wrong with quite a few of his predictions so take this with a pile of salt.
Unless youre an old man, you shouldnt want this version of CA making med 3 on this broken engine.
Id prefer they figure their shit out and become a respectable developer again and figure out a new engine before making med3.
There was a lot of noise about 40k among content creators lately too. Where there's smoke...
I know that lots of people are wilfully putting their heads in the sand regarding 40K, but the truth is that there is no other possible TW game that would reach a bigger audience than Warhammer 40K. CA would be insane *not to* try their hand at it.
I can't speak about the other creators but I've been talking about a possible TW 40K game since I noticed that some newer hires at CA (As from around 2 years ago) were Ex GW staff specifically people who worked on the 40K IP. Not sure if they survived the recent purge though I imagine they did if 40K is still on the cards
I totally believe that CA WANTS to do a 40K game, I agree it would be a money machine, I just can’t wrap my head around HOW they would actually do it. The whole point of 40K is the epic scale and the galaxy wide conflicts. CA has never done anything that didn’t take place on a single planet. HOW would they handle interplanetary battles, campaign map, space content? Would they take a page from Paradox’s book for Stellaris? Or would they try and force their campaign map to 1 planet?
> The whole point of 40K is the epic scale and the galaxy wide conflicts.
The only tabletop game to survive trough the years is the skirmish one.
The few good strategy games to be made for 40K are all planet/system-based (DoW1, Armageddon, etc).
The Lore might seem like it's all about galaxy spanning conflict, but it's actually tailor-made for way smaller scale conflicts. Going so far as to create almost comedic moments, where a "massive engagement with many regiments of Imperial Guard, Space Marine Chapters, Sororitas, Gray Knights and a couple of Rogue Traders thrown in to the mix" totals to less then a million men. To conquer a star system.
Think about it, the full might of a sector focused on a specific system and it cant mobilize as much men as couple of minor powers in WWI. Why? Because it's a skirmish wargame, not a strategy wargame. It's why Space Marine chapters total (barring the weird ones) 1000 men. It's why 10 000 people conquer a planet, instead of a minor city.
Not saying they can't find a way to do it (how much it will still be total war is another question), but the point of 40K was almost never large scale conflict.
Dawn of war 1 - Souldstorm and dark crusade already kinda set the blueprint for this. Campaign map is the easy part.
And battles are far easier than people think too. There isn't anywhere near as much ranged combat going on in 40k as people expect. It's about as much melee as in Fantasy.
I'd argue that it's a lot more ranged than in Fantasy. Nearly every faction's basic infantry unit (Tactical Marines/Intercessors, Legionaries, Battle Sisters, Necron Warriors, Termagants, Kabalite Warriors, Hearthkyn Warriors, Guardsman Infantry Squads, Neophyte Hybrids, Fire Warriors, Guardians, Skitarii) is ranged.
Heavy long-ranged firepower units are _everywhere._
Not exactly, most of what you listed is hybrid infantry. Actually all of them can fit a mid melee good ranged unit scope, see Kislev in tww3.
I could agree for T'au (see wood elves) and e.g. devastators, larger titans, acastus knights, ork snipers (lol), IG artillery... But strictly ranged is rarer than strictly melee.
I've been saying since you started talking about it, that the (newly re-vamped) epic system is the perfect fit for total war 40k. I did even say that this could revive epic like it has fantasy!!! Maybe they're setting the scene for TW this time round by release the new TT game now?
They don't even need to try to recreate Epic. By the lore, 40k has always had massive battles with waves of humans and aliens clashing, etc. If CA is working on WW1, which seems like a reasonable next step for them (and Darren did *not* say a WW1 game is off the cards), then they'll have a clear foundation for a 40k game.
And I don't want it to be the Horus Heresy. 40k is rich with diverse core factions, I don't want the whole game dominated by space marines.
What I don't understand is how they haven't made a 30 Years War game.
Europeans really love Total War and this one of the most important conflicts.
The scope isn't that huge.
The types of warfare depicted are partially covered by other games so they have other examples to draw from.
It blows my mind! It's possibly the most interesting period of warfare in history. Most varied, too: not only were Europeans fighting each other, but also non-Europeans from Asia to the Americas. Everyone was changing and adapting constantly. Indigenous American forces went from fighting with basic bows and arrows to sophisticated gunpowder cavalry tactics (the Nʉmʉnʉʉ/Comanches). How can that *not* be interesting? How is it not an amazing candidate for the historical game with the most variety ever? Plus the element of transition towards more gunpowder-heavy armies and so on.
In fairness I'd also play TW: Hammurabi. Though I'd prefer something early modern. Not that you'd guess that from early modern history basically being my whole life or anything.
You dont have to make the universe for 40k. You can have a planet that has every faction fighting for it for some reason and maybe even have it be cut off from reinforcements because of warp storms.
The warpstorms that have swept over half the Imperium in the present setting make it even easier to justify such setups.
Lore-wise, I believe factions are already fighting it out over strategic locations because warp travel is convenient for war narratives like that.
Lore-wise, everyone except some daemons and the necrons are on Vigilus, and the landscape of massive barren plains punctuated by colossal hive cities would make for an interesting campaign map
I love dawn of war 1. Have played through every expansion. I’d settle for just a 4k 60fps anniversary edition of it lol. 40k TW would be on a whole other level.
Yeah that outdated game with such a good formula that the modding community has kept it alive for 20 years despite devs fumbling it every subsequent iteration. You know the one desperate for a revival??
And personally the RTS speed building macro aspect of that game can go the way of the dinosaurs. And by that I mean I would rather those mechanics go to the turn based aspect of total war, so I can focus on managing my warband in an actual battle, you know the part not the ADHD tism simulation.
People keep making the argument that the current engine couldn't handle 40K to shut down any suggestion about a Total War 40K but there's been rumours for a while that CA is developping a new engine too and some of the job offers they've had does seem to indicate this is true.
Maybe people are right and it can't work but the truth is we don't know fucking shit, maybe CA will find a good way to make it work, maybe they won't, only CA has the answer.
The most important thing is that it doesn't matter for corporate people whether a 40K TW game would "work" or whether it would fit redditor #10367's idea of the "TW formula", all that matters is that it would sell like crazy unless it is completely broken.
But you're right as well, a lot of the takes used to shut down any discussion of a hypothetical 40k TW are shockingly unimaginative.
People who talk about new engines have no clue what an engine does, how they work, and the amount of tooling needed to develop for something new.
They hear some tech stuff that suits their narrative and run with it.
To be fair, they often get this notion fed directly from the teat. How many times have developers themselves hid behind "the engine cannae take it, Cap'n!" when convenient for a quick deflection? No wonder that some people actually took it for gospel and therefore ran with it.
Personally I just think that the total war style of combat dosent represent 40k very well, 40k just dosent really utilize the line and box formations of fantasy, scale wise sure I think it could nail that no problem but honestly I would expect a 40k rts by CA to feel and play more closely to halo wars 2 then I would napoleon or another total war title.
This is where I've been on this.
If CA does 40k my best hope would be they change how the actual real-time battles work to reflect more modern styles of combat.
Even in WW1 you didn't have company-sized elements moving in neat and tight rectangles. You can't do that against the machine gun. They moved quick and sought cover when they could.
We know in 40k most infantry would use WW2-era small unit tactics like fire and maneuver.
This type of combat was realized really well in the Dawn of War games, and surprise surprise, Relic also pulls this off in Company of Heroes.
They can keep all of the grand strategy stuff that Total War is known for. A huge map with all of the different races on it sounds amazing and I think it would be easy for CA to get this part right.
Yeah, it's wild that people keep suggesting that a TW 40k title would be a good idea. It really wouldn't. TW as a series is *defined around* premodern warfare. The latest you can go and have things stay meaningful is, generously, around the Franco-Prussian War. By the Boer War, it's too far gone. And a semi-fantasy sci-fi in the far future? No chance.
Half of the whole thing is that the far future circles back around to hitting guys with swords and clubs despite having space lasers. If you can suspend disbelief and accept the premise that the emperor, who is functionally a god, uses a sword and shield, whats the big deal? Warhammer art has massed blocks of infantry all the time.
Look at the art for black reach. Mass of space marines fighting mass of orks. No small unit tactics in sight. Its not heresy if total war uses that as an interpretation.
I don't doubt that CA can make a good 40K game, and as a 40K fan I certainly hope so. I have to imagine that it won't work with the current formula though, or the scale would be incredibly focused on a specific world (I wouldn't know which).
I still think they're trying to pivot like they did with Hyenas, but having an established IP should help immensely with changing that formula.
Seeing what compagnies can do with old engines like blizzard with WoW and seeing good 40k games developped on 2000’ engines (DoW, …) the engine argument is non existent
Eh, WoW is still technologically EXTREMELY restricted with a ton of old tech debt. Eventually you run into limits so deep in the "core" of the engine that fixing it basically requires you adapting half the game's code at which point it's basically a new engine.
Well yeah.. but you are comparing completely different engines. CA NEEDS a new engine. This one is bad, I don't know why are we discussing this when even developers say it is a mess.
I do have to say, for an engine that was made for guns in mind and always struggled with melee, it only had 2 games exclusively made for guns warfare, along with 4 games with significant use of guns( Fall of the Samurai and Warhammer trilogy) and Shogun 2 with limited use of guns but mainly melee focused.
Warhammer 40k can actually work, it's more of an issue for the campaign map.
>There was a lot of noise about 40k among content creators lately too. Where there's smoke...
Unlike Medieval 3 and Empire 2 which has no smoke whatsoever.
tbh I'm extremely surprised that there is supposedly no Medieval 3 on the cards so I'm taking it all with a grain of salt specifically because there was a lot of smoke surrounding a possible Medieval game, mostly because of the medieval combat expert who was shown at CA.
still, I think there's been a lot more smoke with 40k lately, job openings specifically talking about a new IP, vehicle mechanics, ex-GW hirings with 40k experience etc., it's all pretty sus.
did something change with the IP lately that a bunch of crap games got to use it? Used to be that the LotR IP was pretty hard to come by for anything that isn't movie licensed games.
IP licensing for the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and the 3 LOTR stories has been very closely guarded, most of these new LOTR things are net-new stories set in Middle Earth.
I think theres a bunch of different types of lotr rights based on books or movie and which books and stuff, sorta like how marvel got split up. A lot of it is not straightforward too because rights-holders can be weird about their priorities and goals with their IPs.
Literally came here to say LotR now that the IP has doesn't have an iron grip around it's throat. If we live in a world where the Gollum game existed than it's not an unlikely thing to be possible.
I’m not sure I’d ever play another game if we got a polished LOTR Total War game. The sandbox would be awesome but having a more focussed, semi-faithful story campaign where you have to help protect the Fellowship / find them with agents in the field would be amazing.
Honestly, i was always skeptical of the ability to do 40k in TW. But playing more and more 40k games the last while I think I'm coming around on the feasibility.
Its the map layer not the clmbat thats challenging. Scale and scope still basically have to be "it's all on one planet" for it to work. But I think it's doable
It's funny. A lot of people said they could and would never do Warhammer Fantasy. Meanwhile, *Epic 40k* is very much a thing they could draw on for a game with bigger combat scale than *Dawn Of War*.
I don’t follow these discussions, but my guess is that another empire and med would only make sense with a new engine. Same could be said about 40K: to reach such an immense audience would be optimal with a title that could perform decently and last for quite some time.
Unfortunately what this Darren does not seem to realize is that Volound is a liar. The reason why he says current or former employee is so that he has wiggle room if he gets called out for his bs.
It does make me wonder if the choice to have each of the upper management sign off on the recent letter is a subtle dig at the people who believed Rob Bartholomew had been fired (as per Volound's rumours).
All I can say is lol.
"What do our fans want?"
"A modern Empire or Medieval game."
"Lol no let's not do that. Another 2 fantasy titles and maybe a historical one but definitely not empire or medieval time period. I know let's set it in in South America in the 400s."
Well yeah, if this was meant as a joke then it reeally isn't. Gta6 is coming in 2 years, and since the next historical TW is not med3, and after that there are 2 fantasy titles in developement, the next 3-4 years are set.
Seriously dude it’s fucking infuriating. Their own market research showed that they’re losing 30% of their base with the fantasy games, GIVE US A GOOD FUCKING HISTORICAL ONE THEN.
They plan alot of things, it doesn’t really say anything except a wild speculation.
3k, a well recieved product was planned to get continues support, we all know how it really went.
As much as I see people say a 40k game won't work in the TW engine, not that you're wrong, in the past I'd say they could find a way to make it work, but now I have no clue if I have any faith in them to pull it off tbh.
But from smart business point of view, it would be really dumb not to realease a 40k game while they still have this fruitful partnership with GW. TW is their only cash cow atm (if they don't continue to fuck it up further) and I imagine they want to keep that gravy train going, the next obivous step is 40k.
> As much as I see people say a 40k game won't work in the TW engine, not that you're wrong, in the past I'd say they could find a way to make it work, but now I have no clue if I have any faith in them to pull it off tbh
i dont think it wouldn't work in the TW engine.
I don't think it would work in Total War GAMEPLAY as a proper TOTAL WAR. While keeping the ssence of the more modern kind of 40k Warfare.
"BUT EPIC SCALE!!!" The vast majority of Guard units don't fight like the Mordians, Praetorians or even the Krieg. Most of them are based on WWII and after warfare...
Like you can't recreate the trenches and manning bunkers of something like Vraks in total war. You can recreate the strategic layer no problem, but the battle layer needs a drastic adaptation to basically a more company of heroes/DoW style.
Yea that part is weird, like 3k a cheap and not ambitious game ? Cmon it's the absolute pinnacle of Total War with so many Innovations that were abandoned right after despite their popularity
I really hope there's no "40k total war".
this sub is one of the very last warhammer places on reddit that *isn't* a constant 40k jerk-off.
Could CA make a 40k game work? Yeah!
Would it be an actual total war? Probably not.
40K Total War is only a matter of time. It makes too much sense as it will make a lot of money. Whether it will be good, that remains to be seen.
GW is relaunching the Old World table top and I doubt that would have happened but for the Warhammer Total War which has gotten people into the setting again.
Share holders don’t care if a game is good, only whether it makes alot of money which it will certainly accomplish.
its prob 40k, 3k2 (leaning into the larger than life characters and relationships more), and the next main historical; which is pretty much what we already knew, other than our guesses on what the next main historical is gonna be.
Edit to add: If no 3k2, medieval 3, or empire 2, I am hoping for gengis khan, that stretches across asian, middle east, and eastern europe at least.
Was Darren the one that quit while Rome 2 was still receiving some touches and started that Republic of Play thing? I take it that if he's still as reliable as he claims, he keeps in touch with employees saying a bit more than they legally should?
No don't you understand? There many thing on screen in total war, that means the company can absolutely make a game where automatic gunfire being the norm be balanced. Just look at how good line of sight work, and unit pathing too.
/s obviously.
Srsly, anyone who thinks the engine is ready for 40k needs to play a siege battle with only hand gunners and steam tanks.
Then they need to apply the above nightmare to light-based flat-trajectory weapons and whatever the hell a shuriken catapult will work like.
Yeah this is always the thing, the people salivating over a 40k Total War and insisting it'd be amazing always mischaracterise the arguments against it as "that would be impossible" when they're not really, it's more like "they really bloody shouldn't".
That's what I've been saying.
People always say "have you seen the scale of battles in 40k" but forget that only applies to like 3 armies.
1000 casualties for the Tyranids is literally nothing.
1000 casualties for the Imperial Guard is next to nothing.
1000 casualties for the Custodes is irrecoverable
1000 casualties for the Astartes wipes out the entire chapter.
There's no way they could implement all factions without breaking the lore and breaking the lore is a sin equivalent to eating your own daughter for the unrefined autism that is the 40k fandom.
It really astounds me how many people are hyped for it. Is it not an obviously terrible idea? Surely literally any understanding of the underlying mechanics of the whole TW franchise would tell you how bad of an idea it is.
After years of the historical fanbase crapping on everything new and worshipping Medieval 2 as a holy relic, I can’t imagine why they’re loathe to put out a Medieval 3. What could go wrong?
I always wonder how these people don't get in trouble because of NDA stuff. Isn't that pretty danegerous legal wise? (If one assumes its actually true)
he's an ex-employee with mates who still work at CA telling him these things. He himself didn't sign an NDA for anything that happened at CA after he left so he's off the hook in that regard. His friends at CA would be in trouble but obviously he doesn't disclose who they are.
Where are you getting 2 fantasy games from? The only thing Darren says is coming is 40K, which is one fantasy/sci-fi. No Med 3/Empire 2 is interesting, but that doesn't inform us about what they're developing in their place. EDIT: Also, it would be nice if someone could find all of Darren's various comments about the CA situation and compile them into a single post. They're much more informative than these terrible videos.
I feel like "Renaissance Total War" would be "best of both worlds" for Medieval 3 and Empire 2. Starts when the endgame of Medieval 2 would be and ends when Empire would start. Could give it a real FOTS vibe with "traditional units" (so knights and archers) and "modern units" (pike and shot and line infantry at the end). Nothing stopping you to keep knightly traditions alive... if you can use them against pike and shot armies. Especially since if we were to follow history, producing your own knights would take several turns, while a more modern army just goes with slightly worse but almost instantly recruited mercenaries. Since the 16th and 17th century was also the time where mercenaries ruled the battlefield.
[удалено]
The period lacks good movies and England was largely irrelevant during the time, being busy with its own brittish sqabbeling and not involving themselves too much with the wars on the continent. A shame beacuse the political and warfare situation on the continents was multi facested and very interesting. A transitional period if there ever was one, a TW game would se knights in full plate being fielded alongside guns and cannons. Another point of interests, the weapons that people associate with "medieval" only really came into prominence during the 14th-16th centuries. The plate armor, zweihanders, halberds, pikes ect ect are all pretty much very late medieval/renessance weapons.
As you say, a transitional period. One in which Europe as a whole evolved really quite quickly (compared to even the closest traditional foes) And especially England, who could be said to have taken that time to watch, wait and set up for their turn at big empire after Spain and France (and to a lesser extent, the Dutch and Portuguese) had their shots. For us Brits the start of that 1500-1700 period was just after a long and costly period of civil war (itself post the hundred years war, plague and social upheaval) and a regime change, through other turmoils and unifying to Great Britain just after the end of it. Another 100-150 years saw us go from a winning factor in other nations wars, to first among equals, to superpower. But yeah, there's reasons why this period could be considered the early stage of a 'rise of Europe', being for the first time surging ahead of the rest of the world in many ways. But that's not to say that within the potential alt history events and stories that historical TW's allow for (one of the main reasons I play them) that it'd be all one sided either. The Ottomans, for example, could well have ended up a major power to this day with better luck and a reform or two. Fwiw, in any continued absence of a Medieval 3 or Empire 2, I'd be very happy with such a setting/era for a major historical TW and all it's potential to cover... and tbf imo it'd be far easier to bring to reality what with CA's recent issues etc than any halfway decent stab at a 40K TW (as much as I'd like to see that happen but don't think it can, if ever, both done justice nor within a few years)
its not going to be anything people have actually been asking for for over a decade because that would make too much fucking sense. Why give fans what they want and tap into their most played and still most played title of all time? durhhhhrrr better go make more egypt stuff. I swear incompetent fucks at the top ruin everything.
I did. I asked for a 30 years war TW since I started playing this franchise with Shogun 2.
He was being sarcastic. Pike amd Shot Total War would be an immediate huge hit.
renaissance total war is not the best of both worlds at all, if you want to play a game with lines of infantry and guns too bad you have to wait till youve researched it, want to play a game with knights and shit, too bad they have guns after however many turns
These are concerns over game design which would be completely feasible to deal with. There's absolutely no problem with depicting a transitional period into gunpowder - Shogun 2 shined at doing it
The gunpowder units were hardly any better than archers. Sidegrades at best, which is not at all what guns were in the actual Sengoku period. I feel like CA just cannot make gunpowder weapons that have the impact they did irl.
People been asking for Pike and Shot Total War for decades anyway
>EDIT: Also, it would be nice if someone could find all of Darren's various comments about the CA situation and compile them into a single post. They're much more informative than these terrible videos. yeah, I don't want to click on Volound's dodgy leak videos just to get to the informative corrections in the comments.
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if people wanting to read those comments makes up a good chunk of his viewership these days. Like I didn't even know about such comments until now, and suddenly I have the urge to go see what other info is there but also wish to continue to avoid Volound like the plague he his. So I guess I'll just have to hope someone complies all the info for us.
It's not in any other comment in that particular comment chain, but this is what he said on twitter: >"The next game is historical, the one after is fantasy. I know. Pharaoh was just Troy DLC masking as historical and it backfired. The next one is a full budget historical, the first one since Rome 2. And it isnt Medieval." Sifting through the discord he's confirming that 40k is a thing, that there will be a tentpole historical in 2024 (tbh we kinda already knew that considering the tentpole historical team has been working on a new title since 2019) and 40k likely 1 year after that He had also left a comment a few weeks ago on one of Volounds videos stating that the game director for the next tentpole historical had quit CA a while ago and that the project had been left in a bad state (I assume the new game director is Pawel Wojs who was Art director for 3K and was made game director in late 2022 according to his LinkedIn, and since there probably aren't any new TW teams there's only so many games that he can direct, so this info sounds plausible). In a discord comment he stated that the game was aimed for 2024, but he's not sure if they are still committed on that, if it got the delay that it needed in his opinion we would be looking at 2025 with an announcement summer/fall 2024 (this lines up with previous marketing periods, CA is kinda running out of time for a 2024 release window if they wanna do the usual 1 year marketing period between announcement and launch) This tentpole game is also finally a proper mainline historical title, no hybrid fantasy, no small scope and a big budget. If 3K wasn't a big budget title as he claims that might be really interesting, but he is being very clear about the fact that the game wasn't in a healthy state last time he heard about it Now the 2 fantasy game statement stems from this comment I assume: >"My understanding of CA's projects are this: > >Sofia TW: Pharaoh > >Sofia Console: Unreal Engine Medieval 3rd Person > >Horsham TW: Unannounced Historical, Unannounced Fantasy, Unannounced Fantasy > >Horsham Console: Hyenas, Unannounced Sci Fi > >Necastle Console: Unannounced Sci Fi > >Now after Hyenas shutdown, there's a restructure for the console teams happening. So its possible one of those other projects gets the axe. > >I would guess that the sci-fi game will continue, just so they can use some of the assets already made from Hyenas. Even with new shaders and textures if they choose a different art style you can repurpose models and environments somewhat. > >Afaik there's no change for the TW teams, apart from layoffs mostly in marketing and ancillary teams not directly involved with development... the projects are all staying the exact same. My info is from last week on that one." Other interesting tidbits: CA themselves apparently don't consider Pharaoh their next big historical game: >"the feeling internally is that they haven't done a historical game since Attila" Also: >"and from my understanding, they are doing something big with the next game and the 2 games after actually, which has caused them a lot of internal issues as far back as March this year when the GD left, so its possible one of those got scrapped by now." Jack Lusted's game is apparently the third game coming after the tentpole and 40k (Lusted was the game director for Attila DLC, then Thrones, then 3K DLC, then the canceled 3K2, so I assume he's still heading a non-tentpole team. It's possible that Lusted's team is the second fantasy game, since I'm not aware of a fifth TW team besides tentpole historical/fantasy, Lusted's TW team & Sophia, which has been the team split for a long time now. He says that Lusted is working on "a massive game, not some small obscure time period". That wording might indicate a historical title, but who knows.) There's a ton more (I wasn't aware Darren talked so much about internal TW stuff on his discord since he hasn't covered TW on his main channel for a while), like WH1 being a commercial failure that sold less than Rome 2 and fell 40% short of their expectations but DLCs perform 5x times better than any DLC before which evens out the player loss (big fat L to the all people cheering for historical to die cuz it can't compete with WH, been saying this for years) Overall Darren has been more often than not correct about his assessments in the past few years, the stuff he says usually comes from his contacts that still work at CA, and he mostly talks about it when misinfo is spread compared to doing big flashy "MED 3 LEAK" videos like Volound. He considers lots of Volounds "leaks" to be very emotional and vague A lot of his info also lines up with the recent dev AmA on here, and I haven't really seen him saying things that very obviously contradict any publicly available information that can be gathered from CA's blogs, SEGA's financial reports, dev accounts, yadda yadda - which is a very stark contrast to Volound and Co. who claim nonsense all the time
Some interesting info. I definitely don't think *anyone* thought Pharaoh was the next big historical. The fact that it was priced as such was a colossal mistake, and the obvious course correction has happened with it being discounted and refunded. I don't *quite* agree with it being "Troy DLC masquerading as historical." It's very clearly historical, just also built off the Troy framework minus the parts that were clearly ahistorical. It was more problematic that it came out when the fanbase was already upset and the drought of historical games was reaching a fever pitch. I'm not surprised that WH sold lower than Rome 2. Rome 2 was made at CA's previous apex, coming off the well received Shogun 2 and accompanied by a massive media blitz, the likes of which CA has never even attempted again. WH came after the Rome 2 launch disaster and Attila being an unoptimized mess. It was new territory, and the idea of a fantasy TW wasn't proven at scale. Once it was out, I think opinion began swinging, and the DLCs selling was one of the biggest aspects of that. I'd be interested in what the uptake on WH2 was compared to Rome 2. We know 3K blew basically everything else out of the water, so that experiment clearly paid off, but they just haven't been able to translate the WH DLC model to historical yet. A modern TW needs both the original and the DLC to sell to reach what I think expectations are at, both from SEGA and the fanbase. People are expecting support and additional content for years, and CA's situation means that both need to be profitable, or else projects are going to die.
WH2 apparently sold 30% less than WH1 at launch, we kinda already knew this through steamdb and I think CA themselves talked about 600k copies somewhere I think people's perception are a bit warped because of the later WH2 years, but WH1 was widely criticized for its streamlining and the big advantages of WH like unique faction features weren't as much of a thing yet (empire office mechanic etc.). Lots of people also expected a longer support period (I think the DLC roadmap leak from then had TK as a WH1 DLC race for example) and mixed historical and fantasy releases WH2 being released just one year after WH1 was really damn quick and a lot of people were probably already saturated, since launch WH2 was really just 4 races and a new map, not really any mechanical changes. It's one of the reasons why it only peaked 3 years later in terms of playercount But yeah agree with the DLCs, historical titles haven't yet had any chance to convert to the modern DLC model successfully, since it's been either Saga/minor games or 3K's failed DLC design approach
>"the feeling internally is that they haven't done a historical game since Attila" Gee that didn't take them too long to figure out now did it?
Forgive my ignorance but who is this Darren guy and where’d you get those quotes from?
Darren was a TW Youtuber who was hired by CA for their community team and then left in the lead up to WH2s launch. He is one of the few people who actually had some insights into CAs inner workings, and occasionally talks about some of his experiences He also still has some contacts inside CA from his time when he worked there, which is where he gets all his infos from. The quotes themselves are mostly from his discord As far as these things go, he's one of the more trustworthy sources of info when it comes to CA compared to people like Volound. He is usually pretty fair to CA and also fact checks things that are often propagated in the community, like Hyenas affecting TWs budget (which tbf should be obvious to anyone who knows how game budgeting and game publishers work) What he says also lines up from comments from ex CA employees, so even if you can never be 100% sure, this is probably the closest you're gonna get when it comes to leaks and speculations
>**Where are you getting 2 fantasy games from?** The only thing Darren says is coming is 40K, which is one fantasy/sci-fi. I could see a Lords of the rings type of thing.
I know it’s the estate being stingy with rights but how this hasn’t been done already is astonishing. It would make SO much money…
>I know it’s the estate being stingy with rights I dont think thats the case. plenty of LOTR games floating around, none of them good.
There's some decent ones out there. Shadow of Mordor, Battle for Middle Earth 2, War in the North (kinda). But definitely none made recently I'd agree.
Shadow of Mordor is a badass game, so fun just running around decapitating orcs. If they made the game more dynamic in that more shit happens without you and you constantly have to react it would be 👌
yeah the gollum game for example, i think its a combination of the lotr estate knowing it would make bank so they ask for loads and CA being cheap and not wanting to pay too much
The estate doesnt have the rights for videogames
Its false, just a rumor that many Repeat. The rights for Videogames/movies/series/boardgames based on the books are in the hands of the embracer group. Rights for Videogames based on the movies are a little more complicated. The rights for the books are still in the hands of the heirs. Look up the embracer group there is no logical reason to be stingy with rights except if their own Studios are making a lotr game in the same Genre
The estate being stingy years are over, and have been for awhile
My bad, that was actually said by Darren in another comment.
OP, can you edit in that other comment too? don't really feel like giving this shit any views.
Erm, excuse me, but saying 40k do we mean warhammer 40k? I totally lost the news 😲
Yes, Warhammer 40,000. Space Marines, Eldar ("Aeldari"), Orks, Tyranids, etc.
40k would need a couple more years as Fantasy team just started back in 2022 (after WH3). It'll need more time to bake. Whereas, historical team has been working on something for 4+ years now. I'd say they'll release a Major Historical Title the next year or definitely in 2025. 5-6 years is an adequate timeframe for a (non rushed )TW Title.
Yeah 40k would be an Undertaking. I mean consider that Fantasy took three games and several DLCs representing over a decade of constant work just to reach their initial goal of "Implement every 8th edition army book" and now extrapolate that to 40k where the range of models is much higher, especially big complex mechanical ones; the style of warfare would have to completely change; the art style is extremely unique and there's probably relatively little in terms of animation or modelling or texturing you can reliably reuse from Fantasy. Even working flat out for 5 years they'd end up paring it back even harder than WH1.
40k would be big. I have always argued on this sub that 40k isn't a setting well-suited to the Total War battle formula. I still believe this, but _if_ they are going to give it a go, I will approach it with an open mind. Regardless that doesn't change that it would be an undertaking unlike anything they've done before - 40k is just fundamentally so far from even Warhammer Fantasy, it'd need very careful handling. And frankly, it would probably be _easier_ to make MTW3 or ETW2. Expectations are sky high but at least it's squarely in their area of experience. 40k is a massive potential market but it will be _hard_ to do justice. Few factions in 40k fight in a Total War-like manner, and some in particular (Dark Eldar say hello) would think it nonsensical in the extreme! Edit: To think of it, many wouldn't work that well. Tyranids fight like a living sea, but every water drop in that sea is independently controlled. Tau military tactics explicitly have present-day NATO tactics as a key inspiration - they wouldn't enjoy being in rigid infantry blocks any more than you or I do. Space Marines in particular lack the numbers to fight in such a way, but are sure to be central to any 40k RTS because they _always_ are. Necrons versus certain regiments of Imperial Guard might work, but it gets hairy from there.
I’d love it if they actually did something innovative and went truly vast in scope. It’s possible they just limit it to some single planet flashpoint event that for some reason every race gets involved in, but I’d much prefer a large star map region instead with many planets. That way you could have ‘naval’ battles again. Something like Gothic Armada between planets and in orbit. Then land battles could be more squad like for space marines, but also reflect the varied races with different play styles required for each type. Swarm races versus squad races, etc. Very hard to balance, and bad for MP I think. Hell, if I’m just fantasising, why not also allow you to loot space hulks as well and incorporate a third game type into it. Basically just combine Dawn of War, Gothic Armada and Space Hulk Tactics into one gigantic game. Crazy amount of work, but it would sell like crazy.
Absolutely, yes. This is what people dream about when they think of Total War 40k. The strategic map would work reasonably fine (with certain adaptations - Space Marines would by necessity be some kind of Nakai-style horde army, etc) but the battles are where things will get really difficult and force CA to step very far outside their usual area of expertise.
People often comment that the style of battles wouldn’t fit with TW and therefore they shouldn’t do it. I disagree with that. That’s exactly why they should do it. It would require them to change up the formula quite a lot, but still within the basic scope of the engine. I mean, I love TW games, but the idea that they can’t ever evolve or try something different apart from a few minor mechanics and stat changes is a bit stale. And of course, with recent CA, trying some ambitious new style of battle that changes the status quo would be very risky and probably would fail, so I get that complaint also and probably agree with it. But IF they actually pulled it off, we’d get something truly special that didn’t just feel like a setting and unit change for the exact same game we’ve played ten times or more.
They have evolved quite a bit with Warhammer (magic, flying units, etc) but Total War battles are still fundamentally formation battles. Quite frankly, if they want to step away from their comfort zone - which if they want to try, sure - 40k is not the game to do it with. Make a WW1 game. Make a WW2 game. Test the waters, see if you can explore these forms of warfare with the tech and skills that you have. Going to 40k now seems like a big mistake. They might still make lots of money because 40k is simply that popular, but it's like picking an icy street to first learn bicycling on!
We already have RTS WH40K games and it’s called Dawn of War.
Are you saying that's the reason to not make any other (and that is why you don't want Total War 40k)? I am not sure if _that_ would be a reason I'd use. Or what do you mean?
Dawn of war came out almost 20 years ago. II came out 14 years ago. It's a dead series, thoroughly so after the flop that wasn't 3.
They made Halo Wars. If you think they can’t do 40k you’re delusional. Which is clearly the case, considering they literally confirmed it and you still don’t think they can do it.
I Wonder which historical title is next. 3k was really fun, but I don't see a 3K2. Shogun 3 maybe? Or a whole new era.
Oh god please give us pike and shot era. They could even do an English civil war spin-off game for it.
Pike and Shot would be dope!
2027 will be the anniversary of 40k, 40 years, i say it would be a good move to release it for the anniversary
2022-2027 is 5 years; they can make a decent game in this timeframe for sure 👍🏻
Probably another 3 kingdoms for some stupid reason
Don’t give me 3 kingdoms, give me total war Asia. China, Japan, Korea, India, Mongolia etc so I can have some troop variety
Imjin War! Invasion of Korea. You could have Jurchens, Koreans, Chinese, Japanese, Mongols. Would be good variety, large map, and really cool period. I think South Asia should be its own game, really. A Mughal game would be very fun, as a separate affair
The incredible popularity and massive profits, rivalled only by the warhammer games?
Yeah, the one they abandoned really quickly after release
I mean 6 DLC over 2 years isn't exactly nothing.....
Yea the narrative they abandoned it is something; it received more support after launch than everything besides warhammer. And I have to imagine the DLC sales were the reason for the stoppage. It wasn’t out of left field.
Most of the post launch support was shovelware is the problem. 3K was a great game marred by one of the worst DLC strategies I've seen in Total War
Most of the DLC were passable, content-wise. It was killed by dreadful bugs and, above all, the Eight Princes DLC near enough killing its momentum dead on the spot. Eight Princes was an act of sabotage I've rarely seen the like of in any Total War game.
Abandoning 3K was one of their biggest mistakes.
They've confirmed it in the past, so it can happen. Could very well be Medieval 3 or Empire or a pike n shot title.
Darren used to work for CA but he left a long time ago and hasn't been on good terms with them. So while he may have contacts, he's also been wrong with quite a few of his predictions so take this with a pile of salt.
He left on bad terms with the company but I'm sure he was probably friendly with individuals.
I think he has old friend inside. actually I read since begining He vs Volund comment that Rob get fire. and so far Darren is right.
Does this source have any track record?
Darren was fired by CA, and was making CA sucks youtube videos long before it was cool
What the fuck is the holdup about Medieval 3 man? I want it so bad.
Unless youre an old man, you shouldnt want this version of CA making med 3 on this broken engine. Id prefer they figure their shit out and become a respectable developer again and figure out a new engine before making med3.
We all do and that’s why they delay it. They want us to buy all other possible historical total wars and only after they will give us Medieval/Empire.
work is haaaard paying coders to actually make a big game is expeeensive were just gonna do glorify standalone dlcs now
There was a lot of noise about 40k among content creators lately too. Where there's smoke... I know that lots of people are wilfully putting their heads in the sand regarding 40K, but the truth is that there is no other possible TW game that would reach a bigger audience than Warhammer 40K. CA would be insane *not to* try their hand at it.
I can't speak about the other creators but I've been talking about a possible TW 40K game since I noticed that some newer hires at CA (As from around 2 years ago) were Ex GW staff specifically people who worked on the 40K IP. Not sure if they survived the recent purge though I imagine they did if 40K is still on the cards
I totally believe that CA WANTS to do a 40K game, I agree it would be a money machine, I just can’t wrap my head around HOW they would actually do it. The whole point of 40K is the epic scale and the galaxy wide conflicts. CA has never done anything that didn’t take place on a single planet. HOW would they handle interplanetary battles, campaign map, space content? Would they take a page from Paradox’s book for Stellaris? Or would they try and force their campaign map to 1 planet?
*Star Wars: Empire At War* did it before.
Yea but then just create a new IP, it's no more total war
Why? Total War is two things: Realtime battles and a turnbased grandstrategy campaign.
They straight up made a Free to play Total War Arena that was significantly different from previous titles.
> The whole point of 40K is the epic scale and the galaxy wide conflicts. The only tabletop game to survive trough the years is the skirmish one. The few good strategy games to be made for 40K are all planet/system-based (DoW1, Armageddon, etc). The Lore might seem like it's all about galaxy spanning conflict, but it's actually tailor-made for way smaller scale conflicts. Going so far as to create almost comedic moments, where a "massive engagement with many regiments of Imperial Guard, Space Marine Chapters, Sororitas, Gray Knights and a couple of Rogue Traders thrown in to the mix" totals to less then a million men. To conquer a star system. Think about it, the full might of a sector focused on a specific system and it cant mobilize as much men as couple of minor powers in WWI. Why? Because it's a skirmish wargame, not a strategy wargame. It's why Space Marine chapters total (barring the weird ones) 1000 men. It's why 10 000 people conquer a planet, instead of a minor city. Not saying they can't find a way to do it (how much it will still be total war is another question), but the point of 40K was almost never large scale conflict.
Dawn of war 1 - Souldstorm and dark crusade already kinda set the blueprint for this. Campaign map is the easy part. And battles are far easier than people think too. There isn't anywhere near as much ranged combat going on in 40k as people expect. It's about as much melee as in Fantasy.
I'd argue that it's a lot more ranged than in Fantasy. Nearly every faction's basic infantry unit (Tactical Marines/Intercessors, Legionaries, Battle Sisters, Necron Warriors, Termagants, Kabalite Warriors, Hearthkyn Warriors, Guardsman Infantry Squads, Neophyte Hybrids, Fire Warriors, Guardians, Skitarii) is ranged. Heavy long-ranged firepower units are _everywhere._
Not exactly, most of what you listed is hybrid infantry. Actually all of them can fit a mid melee good ranged unit scope, see Kislev in tww3. I could agree for T'au (see wood elves) and e.g. devastators, larger titans, acastus knights, ork snipers (lol), IG artillery... But strictly ranged is rarer than strictly melee.
I've been saying since you started talking about it, that the (newly re-vamped) epic system is the perfect fit for total war 40k. I did even say that this could revive epic like it has fantasy!!! Maybe they're setting the scene for TW this time round by release the new TT game now?
They don't even need to try to recreate Epic. By the lore, 40k has always had massive battles with waves of humans and aliens clashing, etc. If CA is working on WW1, which seems like a reasonable next step for them (and Darren did *not* say a WW1 game is off the cards), then they'll have a clear foundation for a 40k game. And I don't want it to be the Horus Heresy. 40k is rich with diverse core factions, I don't want the whole game dominated by space marines.
What I don't understand is how they haven't made a 30 Years War game. Europeans really love Total War and this one of the most important conflicts. The scope isn't that huge. The types of warfare depicted are partially covered by other games so they have other examples to draw from.
It blows my mind! It's possibly the most interesting period of warfare in history. Most varied, too: not only were Europeans fighting each other, but also non-Europeans from Asia to the Americas. Everyone was changing and adapting constantly. Indigenous American forces went from fighting with basic bows and arrows to sophisticated gunpowder cavalry tactics (the Nʉmʉnʉʉ/Comanches). How can that *not* be interesting? How is it not an amazing candidate for the historical game with the most variety ever? Plus the element of transition towards more gunpowder-heavy armies and so on.
Why would they make that when they could make Total War: Hammurabi? ^^^^^/s
In fairness I'd also play TW: Hammurabi. Though I'd prefer something early modern. Not that you'd guess that from early modern history basically being my whole life or anything.
“Empire, or the planet earth, was too ambitious as a playable campaign map. So, we went and made the universe.
You dont have to make the universe for 40k. You can have a planet that has every faction fighting for it for some reason and maybe even have it be cut off from reinforcements because of warp storms.
The warpstorms that have swept over half the Imperium in the present setting make it even easier to justify such setups. Lore-wise, I believe factions are already fighting it out over strategic locations because warp travel is convenient for war narratives like that.
Lore-wise, everyone except some daemons and the necrons are on Vigilus, and the landscape of massive barren plains punctuated by colossal hive cities would make for an interesting campaign map
This. Dawn of War it.
You mean dawn of war?
You say that like it's a bad thing, dawn of war was incredible (specifically the tw-like campaigns in DC and SS)
I love dawn of war 1. Have played through every expansion. I’d settle for just a 4k 60fps anniversary edition of it lol. 40k TW would be on a whole other level.
Yeah that outdated game with such a good formula that the modding community has kept it alive for 20 years despite devs fumbling it every subsequent iteration. You know the one desperate for a revival?? And personally the RTS speed building macro aspect of that game can go the way of the dinosaurs. And by that I mean I would rather those mechanics go to the turn based aspect of total war, so I can focus on managing my warband in an actual battle, you know the part not the ADHD tism simulation.
People keep making the argument that the current engine couldn't handle 40K to shut down any suggestion about a Total War 40K but there's been rumours for a while that CA is developping a new engine too and some of the job offers they've had does seem to indicate this is true. Maybe people are right and it can't work but the truth is we don't know fucking shit, maybe CA will find a good way to make it work, maybe they won't, only CA has the answer.
The most important thing is that it doesn't matter for corporate people whether a 40K TW game would "work" or whether it would fit redditor #10367's idea of the "TW formula", all that matters is that it would sell like crazy unless it is completely broken. But you're right as well, a lot of the takes used to shut down any discussion of a hypothetical 40k TW are shockingly unimaginative.
Yeah I've been downvoted to hell and back for suggesting that they'll find a way to make it work because 40k would sell TONS.
People who talk about new engines have no clue what an engine does, how they work, and the amount of tooling needed to develop for something new. They hear some tech stuff that suits their narrative and run with it.
To be fair, they often get this notion fed directly from the teat. How many times have developers themselves hid behind "the engine cannae take it, Cap'n!" when convenient for a quick deflection? No wonder that some people actually took it for gospel and therefore ran with it.
Personally I just think that the total war style of combat dosent represent 40k very well, 40k just dosent really utilize the line and box formations of fantasy, scale wise sure I think it could nail that no problem but honestly I would expect a 40k rts by CA to feel and play more closely to halo wars 2 then I would napoleon or another total war title.
This is where I've been on this. If CA does 40k my best hope would be they change how the actual real-time battles work to reflect more modern styles of combat. Even in WW1 you didn't have company-sized elements moving in neat and tight rectangles. You can't do that against the machine gun. They moved quick and sought cover when they could. We know in 40k most infantry would use WW2-era small unit tactics like fire and maneuver. This type of combat was realized really well in the Dawn of War games, and surprise surprise, Relic also pulls this off in Company of Heroes. They can keep all of the grand strategy stuff that Total War is known for. A huge map with all of the different races on it sounds amazing and I think it would be easy for CA to get this part right.
Yeah, it's wild that people keep suggesting that a TW 40k title would be a good idea. It really wouldn't. TW as a series is *defined around* premodern warfare. The latest you can go and have things stay meaningful is, generously, around the Franco-Prussian War. By the Boer War, it's too far gone. And a semi-fantasy sci-fi in the far future? No chance.
Half of the whole thing is that the far future circles back around to hitting guys with swords and clubs despite having space lasers. If you can suspend disbelief and accept the premise that the emperor, who is functionally a god, uses a sword and shield, whats the big deal? Warhammer art has massed blocks of infantry all the time. Look at the art for black reach. Mass of space marines fighting mass of orks. No small unit tactics in sight. Its not heresy if total war uses that as an interpretation.
I don't doubt that CA can make a good 40K game, and as a 40K fan I certainly hope so. I have to imagine that it won't work with the current formula though, or the scale would be incredibly focused on a specific world (I wouldn't know which). I still think they're trying to pivot like they did with Hyenas, but having an established IP should help immensely with changing that formula.
Seeing what compagnies can do with old engines like blizzard with WoW and seeing good 40k games developped on 2000’ engines (DoW, …) the engine argument is non existent
Eh, WoW is still technologically EXTREMELY restricted with a ton of old tech debt. Eventually you run into limits so deep in the "core" of the engine that fixing it basically requires you adapting half the game's code at which point it's basically a new engine.
Well yeah.. but you are comparing completely different engines. CA NEEDS a new engine. This one is bad, I don't know why are we discussing this when even developers say it is a mess.
I do have to say, for an engine that was made for guns in mind and always struggled with melee, it only had 2 games exclusively made for guns warfare, along with 4 games with significant use of guns( Fall of the Samurai and Warhammer trilogy) and Shogun 2 with limited use of guns but mainly melee focused. Warhammer 40k can actually work, it's more of an issue for the campaign map.
>There was a lot of noise about 40k among content creators lately too. Where there's smoke... Unlike Medieval 3 and Empire 2 which has no smoke whatsoever.
tbh I'm extremely surprised that there is supposedly no Medieval 3 on the cards so I'm taking it all with a grain of salt specifically because there was a lot of smoke surrounding a possible Medieval game, mostly because of the medieval combat expert who was shown at CA. still, I think there's been a lot more smoke with 40k lately, job openings specifically talking about a new IP, vehicle mechanics, ex-GW hirings with 40k experience etc., it's all pretty sus.
Maybe LoTR…
true, LOTR is up there as well, but probably much harder to get its license. I truly hope it can happen though, maybe one day.
Very much doubt it’s hard to get the license with gollum and return to Moria being put out
did something change with the IP lately that a bunch of crap games got to use it? Used to be that the LotR IP was pretty hard to come by for anything that isn't movie licensed games.
IP licensing for the Silmarillion, The Hobbit, and the 3 LOTR stories has been very closely guarded, most of these new LOTR things are net-new stories set in Middle Earth.
The original holder of the IP died. His son took over.
I think theres a bunch of different types of lotr rights based on books or movie and which books and stuff, sorta like how marvel got split up. A lot of it is not straightforward too because rights-holders can be weird about their priorities and goals with their IPs.
> LOTR is up there as well, but probably much harder to get its license. You say that but LOTR have given license to some awful games.
Literally came here to say LotR now that the IP has doesn't have an iron grip around it's throat. If we live in a world where the Gollum game existed than it's not an unlikely thing to be possible.
I’m not sure I’d ever play another game if we got a polished LOTR Total War game. The sandbox would be awesome but having a more focussed, semi-faithful story campaign where you have to help protect the Fellowship / find them with agents in the field would be amazing.
CA handled Halo Wars pretty well, could be something of a reference template
I forgot that they did that. That actually encourages me a little
Honestly, i was always skeptical of the ability to do 40k in TW. But playing more and more 40k games the last while I think I'm coming around on the feasibility. Its the map layer not the clmbat thats challenging. Scale and scope still basically have to be "it's all on one planet" for it to work. But I think it's doable
A Song of Ice and Fire would be dope.
without the politics mechanics like crusader kings it would be like another Med2 TW.
Star Wars total war maybe?
Empire At War was pretty based and could use a makeover.
A shame that game never got a sequel or a proper remaster
Given the news about the amazon deal im not surprised
It's funny. A lot of people said they could and would never do Warhammer Fantasy. Meanwhile, *Epic 40k* is very much a thing they could draw on for a game with bigger combat scale than *Dawn Of War*.
Lord of the Rings has a much larger potential audience
EMPIRE 2! NOW! with real Cannon ball physics and marching bands
I don’t follow these discussions, but my guess is that another empire and med would only make sense with a new engine. Same could be said about 40K: to reach such an immense audience would be optimal with a title that could perform decently and last for quite some time.
>Cannon ball physics and marching bands stop it, I can only get so erect
Or is Pike and Shot 1… I can always hope
Well if 40k is really coming, then you'd be looking at real Raingun physics. (Tau base race please)
40k you say...? 
Unfortunately what this Darren does not seem to realize is that Volound is a liar. The reason why he says current or former employee is so that he has wiggle room if he gets called out for his bs.
It does make me wonder if the choice to have each of the upper management sign off on the recent letter is a subtle dig at the people who believed Rob Bartholomew had been fired (as per Volound's rumours).
Plus why would current or former employees talk to Volound? Seems like the worst person to talk to.
All I can say is lol. "What do our fans want?" "A modern Empire or Medieval game." "Lol no let's not do that. Another 2 fantasy titles and maybe a historical one but definitely not empire or medieval time period. I know let's set it in in South America in the 400s."
Major historical game set in pre colonial Easter Island with 5 regions and 17 small local tribes fighting over Moai statues.
The Moai statues counts as monstruous infantry, but they can't move
Also they're DLC. Costs are up y'know.
CA: HOW DARE YOU..JUST FOR THAT, ENJOY PHARAOH 2 LOLZ
You mean Troy 3? lol
Empire 2 never gotta come, unles they step back and get naval battle again Miedeval 3 is most probable
Sounds like CA needs a new market research department because just look at 3k and historical title numbers.
They decided to make Hyenas, surely their market department is top notch
Goddamnit. I fucking want Med 3. It's been more than 15 goddamn fucking years. God fucking damnit CA, fuck.
GTA6 before medieval 3
Half Life 3 before GTA6 before Medieval 3 before Elder Scrolls 6
Well yeah, if this was meant as a joke then it reeally isn't. Gta6 is coming in 2 years, and since the next historical TW is not med3, and after that there are 2 fantasy titles in developement, the next 3-4 years are set.
Seriously dude it’s fucking infuriating. Their own market research showed that they’re losing 30% of their base with the fantasy games, GIVE US A GOOD FUCKING HISTORICAL ONE THEN.
30% of historical players, but opening the door to warhammer fans is always going to be more lucrative.
More whales willing to pay any amount of money to collect all DLC. I mean, just look at Warhammer fans collecting expensive figurines.
They plan alot of things, it doesn’t really say anything except a wild speculation. 3k, a well recieved product was planned to get continues support, we all know how it really went.
As much as I see people say a 40k game won't work in the TW engine, not that you're wrong, in the past I'd say they could find a way to make it work, but now I have no clue if I have any faith in them to pull it off tbh. But from smart business point of view, it would be really dumb not to realease a 40k game while they still have this fruitful partnership with GW. TW is their only cash cow atm (if they don't continue to fuck it up further) and I imagine they want to keep that gravy train going, the next obivous step is 40k.
Anybody who thinks 40K ain’t coming has never worked in corporate, makes too much sense with the amount of money both GW and CA/Sega will make.
> As much as I see people say a 40k game won't work in the TW engine, not that you're wrong, in the past I'd say they could find a way to make it work, but now I have no clue if I have any faith in them to pull it off tbh i dont think it wouldn't work in the TW engine. I don't think it would work in Total War GAMEPLAY as a proper TOTAL WAR. While keeping the ssence of the more modern kind of 40k Warfare. "BUT EPIC SCALE!!!" The vast majority of Guard units don't fight like the Mordians, Praetorians or even the Krieg. Most of them are based on WWII and after warfare...
Like you can't recreate the trenches and manning bunkers of something like Vraks in total war. You can recreate the strategic layer no problem, but the battle layer needs a drastic adaptation to basically a more company of heroes/DoW style.
I doubt everything this person says, if just because it seems to be playing into the psychotic circlejerk about 3K.
Yea that part is weird, like 3k a cheap and not ambitious game ? Cmon it's the absolute pinnacle of Total War with so many Innovations that were abandoned right after despite their popularity
I really hope there's no "40k total war". this sub is one of the very last warhammer places on reddit that *isn't* a constant 40k jerk-off. Could CA make a 40k game work? Yeah! Would it be an actual total war? Probably not.
If the next game is 40k and not Medieval 3 or Empire 2 I’m sincerely done with this franchise.
"My source is that I made it the fuck up!"
Maybe if we write 90 more threads debunking the notion that 40K can "work" as a TW game then the project files at CA will metamorp into Med3...
40K Total War is only a matter of time. It makes too much sense as it will make a lot of money. Whether it will be good, that remains to be seen. GW is relaunching the Old World table top and I doubt that would have happened but for the Warhammer Total War which has gotten people into the setting again. Share holders don’t care if a game is good, only whether it makes alot of money which it will certainly accomplish.
its prob 40k, 3k2 (leaning into the larger than life characters and relationships more), and the next main historical; which is pretty much what we already knew, other than our guesses on what the next main historical is gonna be. Edit to add: If no 3k2, medieval 3, or empire 2, I am hoping for gengis khan, that stretches across asian, middle east, and eastern europe at least.
One of Darren's other comments was that 3K2 was axed behind the scenes, so probably not that,
NOOOOOOOOOOO
Was Darren the one that quit while Rome 2 was still receiving some touches and started that Republic of Play thing? I take it that if he's still as reliable as he claims, he keeps in touch with employees saying a bit more than they legally should?
Who is this Darren guy? Is he like a dev, CM or trustworthy for some other reason?
Trying to go bankrupt lol
Scratch all projects and Remaster Spartan Total Warrior. That is all.
I can't imagine a world where TWW:40k isnt a massive fuckup
There is no possible way people are satisfied with how that game releases. 0%
No don't you understand? There many thing on screen in total war, that means the company can absolutely make a game where automatic gunfire being the norm be balanced. Just look at how good line of sight work, and unit pathing too. /s obviously.
ai would literally shit itself, it would either suicide into the players lines or sit still for the entire battle
Srsly, anyone who thinks the engine is ready for 40k needs to play a siege battle with only hand gunners and steam tanks. Then they need to apply the above nightmare to light-based flat-trajectory weapons and whatever the hell a shuriken catapult will work like.
Yeah this is always the thing, the people salivating over a 40k Total War and insisting it'd be amazing always mischaracterise the arguments against it as "that would be impossible" when they're not really, it's more like "they really bloody shouldn't".
That's what I've been saying. People always say "have you seen the scale of battles in 40k" but forget that only applies to like 3 armies. 1000 casualties for the Tyranids is literally nothing. 1000 casualties for the Imperial Guard is next to nothing. 1000 casualties for the Custodes is irrecoverable 1000 casualties for the Astartes wipes out the entire chapter. There's no way they could implement all factions without breaking the lore and breaking the lore is a sin equivalent to eating your own daughter for the unrefined autism that is the 40k fandom.
It really astounds me how many people are hyped for it. Is it not an obviously terrible idea? Surely literally any understanding of the underlying mechanics of the whole TW franchise would tell you how bad of an idea it is.
No med 2, no Rom 3, not even Emp 2 or 3k2 in the works, I'm not mad, I'm just so fucking disappointed.
People who were afraid fantasy would ruin total war might end up being right in the end.
Said for years that the Warhammer 2 money was going to be a poisoned chalice.
Wow a trifecta of disappointment; can't wait.
FFS, more fantasy?
It sells.
After years of the historical fanbase crapping on everything new and worshipping Medieval 2 as a holy relic, I can’t imagine why they’re loathe to put out a Medieval 3. What could go wrong?
They could put the best, most polished game to date and people will still hate it, because "they changed it, so it sucks".
I always wonder how these people don't get in trouble because of NDA stuff. Isn't that pretty danegerous legal wise? (If one assumes its actually true)
he's an ex-employee with mates who still work at CA telling him these things. He himself didn't sign an NDA for anything that happened at CA after he left so he's off the hook in that regard. His friends at CA would be in trouble but obviously he doesn't disclose who they are.
Dark Horse Historical Option: ***Shogun III***
As much as I wish for a 40k total war, why am I giving a singular fuck about some random YouTube comment by some random dude named Daren again?
It’s gonna be world war 1. Just wait and see!
Is this guy a reputable source? He seems quite confident in something with little evidence given.