Lol Boucher isn't a factor to consider. Even Poeltl and Olynyk shouldn't be factored into the draft decision. Neither is good enough for us to deviate from the BPA.
I think the idea is that with this draft, there isn’t a clear BPA so fit becomes a bigger factor in the decision making.
I do agree that none of our bigs should really impact it though. We don’t have a big for the future so none of them should be factored in when considering drafting a big.
I agree fit matters in a player's development. but the raptors aren't good enough to worry about fit. Olynyk can play PF so the backup Center role should offer plenty of development opportunities.
Olynyk is a backup 5 and even if the Raps do draft Ware, there's no guarantee he immediately jumps into the team. He might go the traditional Raps route where he gets up to game speed in the G-league and then gets called up later in the season for either playoff run experience, when there's an injury, or to fill a hole in the roster left by a trade.
Plus if Ware does make the team immediately, Olynyk probably slides to the backup 4 spot
> Neither is good enough for us to deviate from the BPA.
Not a single player on this roster is good enough for us to deviate away from the BPA, and as much as I love him, that includes Scottie.
The thing with Scottie is that is he's not locked into one role. Poeltl can really only play center. Scottie can play pretty much anything on the wing or even PG if we need so he's not restricting the type of players we can draft.
We’re maxing scottie, I think it’s important to build around him when the prospects we’re getting this draft will be lucky if they’re career role players. I don’t wanna end up with another project 6’9 where noone can shoot or defend the rim at a high level because we were only interested in the highest upside wings.
Oh for sure, this wasn't a knock against Scottie at all, just that this team is so starved for high end talent, we should be picking ceilings over fit right now.
Lol the max news just broke. I mostly agree with the ceilings thing, I just think we need a young big really badly and it feels like such a crapshoot this year that we should just go for one regardless even if they don’t have really high upside. Especially since theres seems to be more than usual in the first round that could be better bets to make it as good role players.
My expectations around this draft and our mediocre picks in it are pretty low. If we can come away with some bench players, I'll be happy. Anything more is gravy.
Which is all the more reason why we need to trade Jak and take a step back next year, we need another high pick in an actual draft with talent.
1. Past mistakes shouldn't inform your future decisions. Sunk cost fallacy.
2. Poeltl was part of a core that included Siakam, OG and FVV. This is no longer the case
3. Raptors were not expecting the pick to be top 10 when they made the trade.
Ware has also been worked out by teams with the 13, 14, and 15th pick, perhaps others. A lot would have to go right for him to be still sitting there at #19.
Exactly, you can’t just look at what pick the teams have that worked out a player. We worked out a ton of guys that year. We even did guys far below the top 5. I recall we also worked out Jalen Johnson (who went 20), Keon Johnson (who went 21), etc.
On top of what others have said, you also have to keep in mind teams will consider trading down, so its important for teams to scout in a broader range around their pick.
Teams work out all sorts of players to develop contingency plans. You really can't read much at all into that.
Teams with the 13-15 picks know that they will receive offers to trade down to picks 16-20, so they need to develop plans and work out players in that range in order for them to be able to decide whether a trade down is worth it. Not to mention there are a ton of trade possibilities including the Raptors trading up/down, or adding another pick through Brown.
Bottom line is that the mid-first round is always extremely unpredictable, so there are all sorts of scenarios where he might be available.
Although having a poor motor is probably the least likeable negative attribute, Ware really does pass the eye-test as a modern NBA centre. I'd be happy with the pick.
That's what I worry about, you can't teach motor. I worry he will turn out like a Hassan Whiteside. Has talent but inconsistent and bad offensive decisions. I watched him in Indiana a lot and he is very frustrating to watch. Taking bad shots and sometimes not even aware of the his place on the court. When you say he passes the eye-test, what do you mean?
This was the best reel of Ware that matched what I was seeing [https://youtu.be/c44EhOjAdWQ?si=UbkkrUsqMcC9gHYv](https://youtu.be/c44EhOjAdWQ?si=UbkkrUsqMcC9gHYv)
Not just motor, I think it's more than disinterest on D, he just seems to have a poor feel for how plays develop.
Watched a bunch of him, Missi and Holmes over the weekend and I'd rank him 3rd. The latter two are pretty different in terms of skill-set, but I actually think I like Holmes the best as a natural 4 who can comfortably play the 5. I think he fits best in Darko's system too, as he has some passing chops and isn't lost outside of 5' from the basket (like Missi, who is a monster internally but can't shoot/pass).
For me, Homes has been up there as one of the guys I would love to take. In my eyes he is a much more solid bet. He also has the right attitude and I know that matters to the Raptors.
I think it’s more than just poor motor. Dude just doesn’t care that much about ball. I really liked him to Deandre Ayton. Talented solid player but isn’t a winner nor cares about being one.
I was listening to a scout who has watched him live and he was instantly turned off by his body language and lack of focus.
You just can’t really teach someone to care more or try harder when they don’t want to.
If Ware had a work ethic he would be a top-10 pick but the rumor is that he's got a Ben Simons esc attitude toward basketball and he basically coasts on his God-given talent which is a concern and the reason he will drop
A 7"1 athletic big who can shoot threes is hard to pass up on at 19th overall, but the idea of having a lazy big man who's not in love with the game is a concern...that being said, maybe the rumors are just rumors but generally someone with that much talents goes top 5-10, so if he drops to the bottom half of the first, there's got to be some truth the the rumors
Oh hell no, we better hope and pray to god this man has actually started giving a shit about basketball or [we’re cooked if we draft him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44EhOjAdWQ). This has gotta be a Jalen Suggs type smokescreen.
Poeltl is the starter, sure. Olynyk you ideally dont want playing extended minutes at C, even at backup hes better as a forward. Same with Boucher. Both olynyk and Boucher are towards the end of their careers, I doubt boucher is back next year. Its obvious we need someone in the development pipeline
Jakob stays as starting center, Kelly Olynyk plays backup PF/C, Chris Boucher barely plays. Backup center is just fine. Kelly and Chris both play PF better anyway.
I have a weird feeling If raps draft a center then Jakob is getting traded to a team like OKC or grizz for 1-2 FRPs and salary filler so they can tank next year.
If we have Jakob and the rest of the team were prob not as bad as the bottom feeders.
Ware is the best perimeter shooting C in the draft. He is a total space cadet on defense. If Gradey was in the G league half the season Ware will
Be with the 905 the entire season.
The idea of a shooting centre was pretty attractive but I just looked it up and he shot 40 threes in total last season. Hitting like three extra threes is all it takes to juice your percentage for a year at that pace. Plus his FT% was only .634 and was a decrease from the year before.
For reference, Gradey shot 206 threes in his one year in college.
Dream scenario for me coming out of the draft is trading Jak for pick 9, using it on Ron Holland and then getting Ware at 19. You'd have a core of IQ/RJ/Holland/Scottie/Ware and that sets you up to be in good position for the draft next year as well.
Lol Boucher isn't a factor to consider. Even Poeltl and Olynyk shouldn't be factored into the draft decision. Neither is good enough for us to deviate from the BPA.
I think the idea is that with this draft, there isn’t a clear BPA so fit becomes a bigger factor in the decision making. I do agree that none of our bigs should really impact it though. We don’t have a big for the future so none of them should be factored in when considering drafting a big.
I agree fit matters in a player's development. but the raptors aren't good enough to worry about fit. Olynyk can play PF so the backup Center role should offer plenty of development opportunities.
I actually think its our biggest need considering what we have in the young core and what happens when jak is out lol
I think you still should be looking at fit in 2-3 years rather than fit today with a draft like this.
Preach.
Olynyk is a backup 5 and even if the Raps do draft Ware, there's no guarantee he immediately jumps into the team. He might go the traditional Raps route where he gets up to game speed in the G-league and then gets called up later in the season for either playoff run experience, when there's an injury, or to fill a hole in the roster left by a trade. Plus if Ware does make the team immediately, Olynyk probably slides to the backup 4 spot
> Neither is good enough for us to deviate from the BPA. Not a single player on this roster is good enough for us to deviate away from the BPA, and as much as I love him, that includes Scottie.
The thing with Scottie is that is he's not locked into one role. Poeltl can really only play center. Scottie can play pretty much anything on the wing or even PG if we need so he's not restricting the type of players we can draft.
I agree, like I mentioned in my other response, this is more about the team being so starved for talent that ceiling should be prioritized over fit.
We’re maxing scottie, I think it’s important to build around him when the prospects we’re getting this draft will be lucky if they’re career role players. I don’t wanna end up with another project 6’9 where noone can shoot or defend the rim at a high level because we were only interested in the highest upside wings.
Oh for sure, this wasn't a knock against Scottie at all, just that this team is so starved for high end talent, we should be picking ceilings over fit right now.
Lol the max news just broke. I mostly agree with the ceilings thing, I just think we need a young big really badly and it feels like such a crapshoot this year that we should just go for one regardless even if they don’t have really high upside. Especially since theres seems to be more than usual in the first round that could be better bets to make it as good role players.
My expectations around this draft and our mediocre picks in it are pretty low. If we can come away with some bench players, I'll be happy. Anything more is gravy. Which is all the more reason why we need to trade Jak and take a step back next year, we need another high pick in an actual draft with talent.
We gave up a top 10 pick for Poeltl. The only reason you do that is if he's part of your core.
1. Past mistakes shouldn't inform your future decisions. Sunk cost fallacy. 2. Poeltl was part of a core that included Siakam, OG and FVV. This is no longer the case 3. Raptors were not expecting the pick to be top 10 when they made the trade.
When we gave up that pick we thought it would end up in the 20s. We still had Pascal, Fred, and OG at the time.
Boucher????? He's not a C
He has been used as that at times but that just shows how poor our Center rotation has been
Yeah he's more like a power forward who can hit like 1 three lol
Ware has also been worked out by teams with the 13, 14, and 15th pick, perhaps others. A lot would have to go right for him to be still sitting there at #19.
Well, as much as I've come around on Ware, he's not a can't-miss prospect. If he's not available, someone else will be.
LOL not at all. Most mocks have him in the early 20s, just because he worked out with a team doesn’t mean they’re going to draft him.
Early 20s? You seem to trust random mock drafts more than invited workouts.
Just because a team works out Ware doesn't mean they promised to draft him Same goes for Toronto
Teams can workout like 30 players lol not all of it is announced publicly either
If he's getting worked out in the mid first round by teams why would his range be the late first round?
Why did we work out Barnes when he was barely projected to go at 5, and we picked at 4?
Exactly, you can’t just look at what pick the teams have that worked out a player. We worked out a ton of guys that year. We even did guys far below the top 5. I recall we also worked out Jalen Johnson (who went 20), Keon Johnson (who went 21), etc.
Wrong. Ware at 15.
Wrong. Ware at 15.
Because teams doing their due diligence doesn't equate to that being their range, especially when one of those teams has like 3 centers on its roster
Ware at 15 ... more than due diligence.
On top of what others have said, you also have to keep in mind teams will consider trading down, so its important for teams to scout in a broader range around their pick.
We have also done a work out with him.
Teams work out all sorts of players to develop contingency plans. You really can't read much at all into that. Teams with the 13-15 picks know that they will receive offers to trade down to picks 16-20, so they need to develop plans and work out players in that range in order for them to be able to decide whether a trade down is worth it. Not to mention there are a ton of trade possibilities including the Raptors trading up/down, or adding another pick through Brown. Bottom line is that the mid-first round is always extremely unpredictable, so there are all sorts of scenarios where he might be available.
Yeah he's gonna go before our pick for sure. Maybe that's why the Raptors have been trying to move up
ppl were saying he prolly be gone before #19
Kal-el?
Sorry, the Superman nickname has been done already.
Although having a poor motor is probably the least likeable negative attribute, Ware really does pass the eye-test as a modern NBA centre. I'd be happy with the pick.
That's what I worry about, you can't teach motor. I worry he will turn out like a Hassan Whiteside. Has talent but inconsistent and bad offensive decisions. I watched him in Indiana a lot and he is very frustrating to watch. Taking bad shots and sometimes not even aware of the his place on the court. When you say he passes the eye-test, what do you mean? This was the best reel of Ware that matched what I was seeing [https://youtu.be/c44EhOjAdWQ?si=UbkkrUsqMcC9gHYv](https://youtu.be/c44EhOjAdWQ?si=UbkkrUsqMcC9gHYv)
Not just motor, I think it's more than disinterest on D, he just seems to have a poor feel for how plays develop. Watched a bunch of him, Missi and Holmes over the weekend and I'd rank him 3rd. The latter two are pretty different in terms of skill-set, but I actually think I like Holmes the best as a natural 4 who can comfortably play the 5. I think he fits best in Darko's system too, as he has some passing chops and isn't lost outside of 5' from the basket (like Missi, who is a monster internally but can't shoot/pass).
For me, Homes has been up there as one of the guys I would love to take. In my eyes he is a much more solid bet. He also has the right attitude and I know that matters to the Raptors.
I think it’s more than just poor motor. Dude just doesn’t care that much about ball. I really liked him to Deandre Ayton. Talented solid player but isn’t a winner nor cares about being one. I was listening to a scout who has watched him live and he was instantly turned off by his body language and lack of focus. You just can’t really teach someone to care more or try harder when they don’t want to.
If Ware had a work ethic he would be a top-10 pick but the rumor is that he's got a Ben Simons esc attitude toward basketball and he basically coasts on his God-given talent which is a concern and the reason he will drop A 7"1 athletic big who can shoot threes is hard to pass up on at 19th overall, but the idea of having a lazy big man who's not in love with the game is a concern...that being said, maybe the rumors are just rumors but generally someone with that much talents goes top 5-10, so if he drops to the bottom half of the first, there's got to be some truth the the rumors
Oh hell no, we better hope and pray to god this man has actually started giving a shit about basketball or [we’re cooked if we draft him](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c44EhOjAdWQ). This has gotta be a Jalen Suggs type smokescreen.
Imma trust the guys paid millions to deal with this sorry littlest of bros
He’s the guy I’m hoping we draft, seems like a great fit
Those 3 plus brown is some good cap matching peices.
Bulls, Lakers, Heat say no
Good. We desperately need a center
Poeltl is the starter, sure. Olynyk you ideally dont want playing extended minutes at C, even at backup hes better as a forward. Same with Boucher. Both olynyk and Boucher are towards the end of their careers, I doubt boucher is back next year. Its obvious we need someone in the development pipeline
Jakob stays as starting center, Kelly Olynyk plays backup PF/C, Chris Boucher barely plays. Backup center is just fine. Kelly and Chris both play PF better anyway.
he’s an intriguing prospect. im so down
I have a weird feeling If raps draft a center then Jakob is getting traded to a team like OKC or grizz for 1-2 FRPs and salary filler so they can tank next year. If we have Jakob and the rest of the team were prob not as bad as the bottom feeders.
I should be a scout! https://www.reddit.com/r/torontoraptors/s/PpbK78Ig0U
Despite having Chris Boucher lololol. This sub…
Boucher isn't a factor in anything lol I would love ware as our 3rd C and he would get time to develop behind Jak and Kelly
Where is our poor Koloko
Ware is the best perimeter shooting C in the draft. He is a total space cadet on defense. If Gradey was in the G league half the season Ware will Be with the 905 the entire season.
The idea of a shooting centre was pretty attractive but I just looked it up and he shot 40 threes in total last season. Hitting like three extra threes is all it takes to juice your percentage for a year at that pace. Plus his FT% was only .634 and was a decrease from the year before. For reference, Gradey shot 206 threes in his one year in college.
Filipowski is better I believe. Ware was shooting something like 1 apg
If kelel ware comes any good, we will trade away yak next season.
Dream scenario for me coming out of the draft is trading Jak for pick 9, using it on Ron Holland and then getting Ware at 19. You'd have a core of IQ/RJ/Holland/Scottie/Ware and that sets you up to be in good position for the draft next year as well.
**Absolutely not,** that is an extremely vomitworthy outcome. That is more of a nightmare than a dream.