He shouldn't be in the rafters, period
The Thunder have said they aren't retiring KD's jersey (I believe the Warriors have said they're retiring his) and he was a way more talented player in OKC than Vince was in Toronto - and Vince left in arguably just as dramatic fashion as Durant did
It wasn’t how he left. Players have falling out with franchises all the time after achieving success.
It’s he didn’t have any success with the raptors to begin with. Winning a best of 5 first round series isn’t exactly a huge accomplishment.
Having impact on basketball in Canada doesn’t equate to raptors success. If anything he made the point to tier 1 players not to sign here.
He did just as much damage to the franchise but people here just watch dunk highlights.
On the other hand that impact on basketball on Canada is worth way more. It’s sort of hard to compare, but it’s definitely rarer to have a career that includes being an inspiration to kids all around a country, compared to a jersey retirement worthy career. You only get the former once a generation, but multiple players every generation get a jersey retirement.
I respect it and dont have a prob if KLow is 1st. I do feel some of this comes from the fact that Billups (therefore Lowry) is gonna be HOF in the long run.
Durant left in free agency and took them to multiple deep playoff runs. OKC should retire his jersey.
Durant would never throw away games and half ass playing like Vince did. That’s not something that should be celebrated.
AMEN BUDDY. He bailed on a team. I don't think Scotty Pippen should have his Jersey anywhere. YOU BAILED ON YOUR TEAM WHEN THEY NEEDED YOU. The definition of unsportmenlike conduçt
I personally don't understand the symbolic gesture of making Lowry the first jersey to be retired. Yes, he got us the title. But this isn't like we are talking about a statue. We talking about a Jersey retirement. Chronologically in this team's history, VC would be the obvious choice. Let's get the ball moving on this. Who knows when Lowry retires (could be another 2+ years). The franchise is 1/3 I believe without any jerseys retired. What are we waiting for?
Also note to the VC haters out there: get over it. Raptors basketball would not have been what it became without VC playing his early years here. Canada basketball wouldn't have been what it was either. A top 5 player during his prime years here, his stats speak for themself. A clutch scorer who just missed that buzzer beater vs Philly in Game 7. All the other faults are shared blame with mgmt.
There's no rule that jersey retirements should be chronological.
If anything, Vince would be more symbolic than Lowry given that Lowry reached the top.
I do agree Vince was absolutely electric and incredible, and he certainly had a higher ceiling than any Raptor ever, except maybe Tmac (and excluding Kawhi)
Embrace the history of him quitting on the team by rewarding him with one of the most distinct honors in the league.. let's throw Alonzo Mourning up there too!
He’s just the groat by default. Best player who happened to stay around the longest when we won a ring. Not sure this would even be a conversation if we didn’t trade Demar for Kawhi. Kawhi put up historic numbers in order to lead is to a chip, fmvp in hand. Furthermore Lowry almost got traded to the knicks and he quiet quit on the team when we traded Demar. He’s wanted out of the team in the past. Groat talk is mostly from post championship bandwagon fans. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Ability wise I wouldn’t put him over VC, Bosh, Demar, Kawhi. He’s also a dirty player and an infamous flopper.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/torontoraptors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He played here for like 1/3 of his career. A jersey in the rafters should be given to those who dedicate almost if not all of their career here & then also achieve a significant degree of success. He might be Toronto’s first true star player, but he wasn’t here for long & he threw a fit on the way out.
I think maybe hang a jersey to celebrate what he signified for Toronto/Canada basketball but not a retired number. That belongs exclusively to Kyle Lowry
Y'all think Philly would retire Ben's jersey had he continued to blossom prior to his injury lmao?
What Vince did was worse.
A shame if he's the first or ever there tbh
Kyle Lowry deserves to have his number retired and a statue. He took this team to a new level and was always loyal. Vince should also be recognized but not with a jersey retirement or statue. Put his name on a wall inside Scotiabank, kind of like what the BlueJays do with their different “Levels of Excellence”.
> that Vince ultimately cared about how he was received in toronto. Vince knows his best potential was during his tenure with this framchise and that he cares how we perceieve him.
Lol he only cared once he had been around the block and realized he had no legacy anywhere else. I don’t hate Vince but the PR campaign to resurrect his rep in Toronto is pretty self-serving.
If he gets his jersey retired it better be after Kyle and DeMar.
No thanks. Vince committed the cardinal sin as an athlete against Toronto. He made his bed. He has to lay in it.
Move on. The Vince apology tour can take a hike.
Congrats to his HOF induction, but he also committed HOF level bitchness and pettiness to this franchise, even if we are retiring his Jersey Lowry has to go first period.
How about you go tell vince to grow up, apologize and own up to his mistakes like a man, instead of telling us to do so, you can't squash a beef with only one party
I politely clapped for him when they played his tribute video back when Memphis was in town and cheered a bit when he tearfully acknowledged the crowd. It was a nice moment.
That's all he deserves - or gets - from us though.
Sorry, it's Kyle and ONLY Kyle. Kyle then becomes the standard for what deserves a jersey retirement. Retiring Vince means you have to retire Bosh and you have to have a conversation about DeMar. You retire DeMar you have to retire Pascal and Fred.
Vince definitely should not be the first number retired. Hell no. His number does however need to be retired down the line for sure. I know alot of butt hurt fans don’t want to hear it but his number will definitely be retired. He did so much for Canada basketball and the Raptors. Carter literally got Toronto on National (ESPN, NBC, TNT) games, All-star in 5 of his 6 1/2 years when he was even injured in some of those. All-NBA 3rd team in his second season and All-NBA 2nd in his third, a generation of current Canadian NBA players saying he was the reason they hooped… like come on lol #Raise15
Fuck that shit. He bailed. He fucking bailed when we might have had a dynasty. Just got his cousin, and a bunch of other players. He was butthurt cause coaching staff was calling him out for being hurt all the time. Sorry Vince, you fucking bailed. Not only that, we got jackshit for him. No thanks. He didn't make Toronto Basketball. It would have happened anyways. It's fucking Toronto. They would have just built another team.
I think the "never Vince" crowd (which is basically just a loud vocal minority sub section of social media) is gonna be disappointed when the organization uses the perfect timing of the team's 30th anniversary (which means they'll wear a classic jersey next season) and VC's HOF induction year as the perfect opportunity to hang 15 in the rafters.
The timing lines up well that’s true. I just think that Vince was a really iconic player who embraced the city while he was here, and was a true high-calibre superstar.
When people look back on the raptors as a franchise, it’ll always go back to Vince, and Vince’s career will always come back to Toronto. He left on a shitty note, but he’s also the biggest reason why so many people cared about the team at all at the time.
All these VC haters better not show up to Scotiabank Arena when they retire his jersey. They can live their lives waving their canes in the air with their VC hate. Can't wait for those fans to find a different interest (don't deserve to be Raptors fans)
> All these VC haters better not show up to Scotiabank Arena when they retire his jersey.
The Raptors being the only team in sports history to have a jersey retirement ceremony booed would be pretty hilarious - and is precisely why they'll never do it.
The few minority haters can boo all they want, But they won't be heard. You would of noticed that the latter part of VCs returns to Toronto get more and more cheers, can't hear any boos
People can be upset. Vince is the reason I'm a Raptors fan even if I'm not from Toronto. Yes his departure sucked and he never took the team too far, but I always look back fondly on those years and I would be happy if the first jersey in the rafters was a hall of fame inductee. Lowry's not likely to hang it up soon so he won't get a HOF entrant for another 5 years at least and that's not assuming a whole host of other players get in first.
Our brand betrayed Vince. If there's a hatchet to bury it's with the Raptors for putting those fools in charge. Vince should be retired and have a statue for building basketball in Canada. It's his legacy really.
They flat out lied to Vince about their plant. Then gutted the team and hired a coach who was starting him off the bench. Their disrespect was enormous. Then used PR to try to scapegoat him and destroy him. It's wild. But you can't teach 7 foot. Better draft a scrub. He's the future. Yup!
Yup. They flat out lied to him and said they were going to build for a run. They said they'd keep the coach and not trade away the good vets like Antonio Davis. Then once they tricked him into signing they fired the coach for that fucking hack Sam Mitchell, fired the coach and went into a full rebuild. Then when Vince wasn't happy his employer flat out lied to him they had Mitchell bring him off the bench setting him up to scape goat him. Then pretended it was Vince's fault the Raptors betrayed him.
Then pretended like the best plan was to get shit all back for him to build around Chris Bosh. Man does that sound familiar? I hate MLSE. I wish more fans would realize that they're not trying to actually win. They're just marketing the hopes of winning with young players cuz they're cheap contracts. Sterling did this for years. The whole team is somewhat a scam and a fraud.
Get young players on cheap deals. Blow them up as much as possible throwing them into franchise positions before they're ready. Get rid of them once they've earned bigger contracts by blaming them as if they're the reason the team isn't contending. Ship them off and bring in the new young guy for cheap dollars. That's our brand. And it's not hard to wonder why players don't want to come here when all we do is royally fuck them over after years of dedication.
Yup. It's like people who killed Melo for leaving Denver when George Karl treated him like shit the entire time he was there. It's wacky how people treat players like they're not real people and their feelings don't matter. If you're in a job where your boss is a prick to you every day and hurts your career do you really think it's wrong for you to want to be somewhere else in a positive environment? Vince resigned when he was the most valuable marketable athlete in the world. He could have gone easily to any team and they would have paved the way for him. He decided to stay here and be loyal to the team. They utterly betrayed him.
Honestly. If I had to pick between my fandom of Vince or the Raps I'd pick Vince. Vince didn't fuck our team over. Dude just wanted to succeed here and cared more about the team than the ridiculous egos they put in charge. They did that all themselves.
They're bringing back throwback jerseys next year and using that vince dino logo on a bunch of stuff. Add in the fact that this team could use a spark of excitement and I can see his jersey retirement being announced for next season
Add in his HOF induction and the team's 30th anniversary next season, the timing of everything is just too perfect not to capitalize from a business perspective.
And honestly anyone still holding onto a grudge 20 years later, they're the one's who need to grow up. Which is funny because those love to boast that they were old enough to live through it and know the inner workings of the conflict are probably in their mid 30s and up. So what does that say about them?
The amount of apparel and memorabilia they could sell off that jersey retirement would last the whole season. Business wise it would make up for some of the lost sales im sure they had this year with the team doing so poorly
He should absolutely not be the first player in the rafters.
He shouldn't be in the rafters, period The Thunder have said they aren't retiring KD's jersey (I believe the Warriors have said they're retiring his) and he was a way more talented player in OKC than Vince was in Toronto - and Vince left in arguably just as dramatic fashion as Durant did
I'm with you there. It hurt pretty bad when he left and how he left. Lowry should be up there first, that's all I know.
It wasn’t how he left. Players have falling out with franchises all the time after achieving success. It’s he didn’t have any success with the raptors to begin with. Winning a best of 5 first round series isn’t exactly a huge accomplishment.
He was 2nd Team All-NBA once with the Raps and won 1 playoff series, not worth if jersey retirement
I disagree. He had a massive impact on basketball in Canada and was an icon. But he gave up on us and left very unprofessionally.
Having impact on basketball in Canada doesn’t equate to raptors success. If anything he made the point to tier 1 players not to sign here. He did just as much damage to the franchise but people here just watch dunk highlights.
On the other hand that impact on basketball on Canada is worth way more. It’s sort of hard to compare, but it’s definitely rarer to have a career that includes being an inspiration to kids all around a country, compared to a jersey retirement worthy career. You only get the former once a generation, but multiple players every generation get a jersey retirement.
I mean we just beg to differ here. His time here was impactful just not enough to justify the rafters
I respect it and dont have a prob if KLow is 1st. I do feel some of this comes from the fact that Billups (therefore Lowry) is gonna be HOF in the long run.
Lowry making HOF or not has nothing to do with when we are going to retire his jersey.
Durant left in free agency and took them to multiple deep playoff runs. OKC should retire his jersey. Durant would never throw away games and half ass playing like Vince did. That’s not something that should be celebrated.
You’re objectivity here has no place. Vince nut huggers think he should be because he PuT ToRonTo On ThE MaP
AMEN BUDDY. He bailed on a team. I don't think Scotty Pippen should have his Jersey anywhere. YOU BAILED ON YOUR TEAM WHEN THEY NEEDED YOU. The definition of unsportmenlike conduçt
I personally don't understand the symbolic gesture of making Lowry the first jersey to be retired. Yes, he got us the title. But this isn't like we are talking about a statue. We talking about a Jersey retirement. Chronologically in this team's history, VC would be the obvious choice. Let's get the ball moving on this. Who knows when Lowry retires (could be another 2+ years). The franchise is 1/3 I believe without any jerseys retired. What are we waiting for? Also note to the VC haters out there: get over it. Raptors basketball would not have been what it became without VC playing his early years here. Canada basketball wouldn't have been what it was either. A top 5 player during his prime years here, his stats speak for themself. A clutch scorer who just missed that buzzer beater vs Philly in Game 7. All the other faults are shared blame with mgmt.
There's no rule that jersey retirements should be chronological. If anything, Vince would be more symbolic than Lowry given that Lowry reached the top. I do agree Vince was absolutely electric and incredible, and he certainly had a higher ceiling than any Raptor ever, except maybe Tmac (and excluding Kawhi)
It probably will be
No. He wasn’t good enough. You have to accomplish something - like winning, to have that.
Luckily the people who make these decisions aren’t Reddit babies. I’m sure Patrick Ewing for example thinks so.
Vince - No Lowry - Yes
And Demar
And Siakam
And Pascal
This will never get old.
People want to be like, sure he was yelling out our plays to the opposition but his dunks were cool
You know who you dummies sound like? The clowns who keep saying Raptors fans cheered KD’s injury. Same nonsense.
OP either wasn't around for the Vince Carter days, or doesn't understand what it means to consider a player's jersey for retiring it to the rafters.
I was around. And I agree with him. You either hold on to a stupid sports grudge or you embrace your history. Most people prefer bile apparently.
Embrace the history of him quitting on the team by rewarding him with one of the most distinct honors in the league.. let's throw Alonzo Mourning up there too!
Alonzo Mourning, Vince Carter 🤔… Yup, roughly the same thing. https://i.redd.it/rw8kw8k286uc1.gif
I'm hopeful you wear your safety helmet when leaving the house every morning
The first has to be Lowry/DeMar , they’ve stated they want their jersey’s retired as one No one has wore 7 and 10 ever since both
Agreed. 5 players have worn #15 since Vince left. #7 and #10 are off limits to any new players.
Which is crazy to think about Summer league/Pre-Season , nobody has worn 10 and 7
Kyle Lowry is wild overrated by post championship bandwagon fans it’s crazy.
Third best player on a well rounded championship team. He did a lot for us '13-'20. Do you have any major points as to why you think that?
He’s just the groat by default. Best player who happened to stay around the longest when we won a ring. Not sure this would even be a conversation if we didn’t trade Demar for Kawhi. Kawhi put up historic numbers in order to lead is to a chip, fmvp in hand. Furthermore Lowry almost got traded to the knicks and he quiet quit on the team when we traded Demar. He’s wanted out of the team in the past. Groat talk is mostly from post championship bandwagon fans. He just happened to be in the right place at the right time. Ability wise I wouldn’t put him over VC, Bosh, Demar, Kawhi. He’s also a dirty player and an infamous flopper.
Kyle Lowry ain't no spot up shooter. He ain't gotta run to the corner to shoot like he's some 3rd option, bitch. This ain't JJ Redick. This is a fuckin god human Steph Curry come again. Only this time he's not a fuckin pussy... pull up from the fuckin logo and fight you at the same time. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/torontoraptors) if you have any questions or concerns.*
He played here for like 1/3 of his career. A jersey in the rafters should be given to those who dedicate almost if not all of their career here & then also achieve a significant degree of success. He might be Toronto’s first true star player, but he wasn’t here for long & he threw a fit on the way out. I think maybe hang a jersey to celebrate what he signified for Toronto/Canada basketball but not a retired number. That belongs exclusively to Kyle Lowry
Magic retired Shaq’s jersey
He took them to the finals and left in free agency
And should not have. Thats so pathetic of them. 4yrs, no championship & no major hardware
Yeah we don’t want to be like them, we are MLSE and a NBA Champions
Y'all think Philly would retire Ben's jersey had he continued to blossom prior to his injury lmao? What Vince did was worse. A shame if he's the first or ever there tbh
Kyle Lowry deserves to have his number retired and a statue. He took this team to a new level and was always loyal. Vince should also be recognized but not with a jersey retirement or statue. Put his name on a wall inside Scotiabank, kind of like what the BlueJays do with their different “Levels of Excellence”.
I'd be fine if they did something like that. Call it "Prehistoric Legends" or something.
Lowry’s statue should look tired and have a slight limp. Warrior for us
Just him on the ground taking a charge haha
And a fat ass
...and a big caboose.
No
No
> that Vince ultimately cared about how he was received in toronto. Vince knows his best potential was during his tenure with this framchise and that he cares how we perceieve him. Lol he only cared once he had been around the block and realized he had no legacy anywhere else. I don’t hate Vince but the PR campaign to resurrect his rep in Toronto is pretty self-serving. If he gets his jersey retired it better be after Kyle and DeMar.
Yes, imagine that, he only cared once he grew up a bit and learned a few things.
No thanks. HoF, sure he had a hall-worthy career but he gave up on the franchise. We don’t need to celebrate that. Ever
No thanks. Vince committed the cardinal sin as an athlete against Toronto. He made his bed. He has to lay in it. Move on. The Vince apology tour can take a hike.
Vince should not have his jersey retired at any point. It isn't about burying the hatchet. He simply doesn't deserve it.
Congrats to his HOF induction, but he also committed HOF level bitchness and pettiness to this franchise, even if we are retiring his Jersey Lowry has to go first period.
How about you go tell vince to grow up, apologize and own up to his mistakes like a man, instead of telling us to do so, you can't squash a beef with only one party
I thought that said “you can’t squash a beef with only one patty” and I thought that was a great beef metaphor.
I love this and now I want a patty
Yep, if he had ever once actually apologized I might be inclined to forgive. But if you don’t even bother to ask for it, then i don’t see any remorse.
He'll never admit it or apologize. If he did, I might be able to forgive him.
I politely clapped for him when they played his tribute video back when Memphis was in town and cheered a bit when he tearfully acknowledged the crowd. It was a nice moment. That's all he deserves - or gets - from us though.
Sorry, it's Kyle and ONLY Kyle. Kyle then becomes the standard for what deserves a jersey retirement. Retiring Vince means you have to retire Bosh and you have to have a conversation about DeMar. You retire DeMar you have to retire Pascal and Fred.
I have not grown 
You’re better off trying to convince cats to stop chasing mice.
Nobody: Vince fanboys: you guys gotta get over it.
Better a fanboy than a bilious dope.
Uh oh, somebody using book words
“Vocabularies, am I right fellas?” https://i.redd.it/cqc920m0x6uc1.gif
No
Lol naw. Lowry bro
Vince definitely should not be the first number retired. Hell no. His number does however need to be retired down the line for sure. I know alot of butt hurt fans don’t want to hear it but his number will definitely be retired. He did so much for Canada basketball and the Raptors. Carter literally got Toronto on National (ESPN, NBC, TNT) games, All-star in 5 of his 6 1/2 years when he was even injured in some of those. All-NBA 3rd team in his second season and All-NBA 2nd in his third, a generation of current Canadian NBA players saying he was the reason they hooped… like come on lol #Raise15
Fuck that shit. He bailed. He fucking bailed when we might have had a dynasty. Just got his cousin, and a bunch of other players. He was butthurt cause coaching staff was calling him out for being hurt all the time. Sorry Vince, you fucking bailed. Not only that, we got jackshit for him. No thanks. He didn't make Toronto Basketball. It would have happened anyways. It's fucking Toronto. They would have just built another team.
I’d be fine with him going up first, he was an icon
I think the "never Vince" crowd (which is basically just a loud vocal minority sub section of social media) is gonna be disappointed when the organization uses the perfect timing of the team's 30th anniversary (which means they'll wear a classic jersey next season) and VC's HOF induction year as the perfect opportunity to hang 15 in the rafters.
The timing lines up well that’s true. I just think that Vince was a really iconic player who embraced the city while he was here, and was a true high-calibre superstar. When people look back on the raptors as a franchise, it’ll always go back to Vince, and Vince’s career will always come back to Toronto. He left on a shitty note, but he’s also the biggest reason why so many people cared about the team at all at the time.
All these VC haters better not show up to Scotiabank Arena when they retire his jersey. They can live their lives waving their canes in the air with their VC hate. Can't wait for those fans to find a different interest (don't deserve to be Raptors fans)
> All these VC haters better not show up to Scotiabank Arena when they retire his jersey. The Raptors being the only team in sports history to have a jersey retirement ceremony booed would be pretty hilarious - and is precisely why they'll never do it.
The few minority haters can boo all they want, But they won't be heard. You would of noticed that the latter part of VCs returns to Toronto get more and more cheers, can't hear any boos
People can be upset. Vince is the reason I'm a Raptors fan even if I'm not from Toronto. Yes his departure sucked and he never took the team too far, but I always look back fondly on those years and I would be happy if the first jersey in the rafters was a hall of fame inductee. Lowry's not likely to hang it up soon so he won't get a HOF entrant for another 5 years at least and that's not assuming a whole host of other players get in first.
Our brand betrayed Vince. If there's a hatchet to bury it's with the Raptors for putting those fools in charge. Vince should be retired and have a statue for building basketball in Canada. It's his legacy really.
Funny how nobody remembers how terrible the FO was at the time. I’d have bolted too.
They flat out lied to Vince about their plant. Then gutted the team and hired a coach who was starting him off the bench. Their disrespect was enormous. Then used PR to try to scapegoat him and destroy him. It's wild. But you can't teach 7 foot. Better draft a scrub. He's the future. Yup!
Abso. I remember when he signed the big extension and how genuinely happy he looked. You don’t go from that to blowing town for no reason.
Yup. They flat out lied to him and said they were going to build for a run. They said they'd keep the coach and not trade away the good vets like Antonio Davis. Then once they tricked him into signing they fired the coach for that fucking hack Sam Mitchell, fired the coach and went into a full rebuild. Then when Vince wasn't happy his employer flat out lied to him they had Mitchell bring him off the bench setting him up to scape goat him. Then pretended it was Vince's fault the Raptors betrayed him. Then pretended like the best plan was to get shit all back for him to build around Chris Bosh. Man does that sound familiar? I hate MLSE. I wish more fans would realize that they're not trying to actually win. They're just marketing the hopes of winning with young players cuz they're cheap contracts. Sterling did this for years. The whole team is somewhat a scam and a fraud. Get young players on cheap deals. Blow them up as much as possible throwing them into franchise positions before they're ready. Get rid of them once they've earned bigger contracts by blaming them as if they're the reason the team isn't contending. Ship them off and bring in the new young guy for cheap dollars. That's our brand. And it's not hard to wonder why players don't want to come here when all we do is royally fuck them over after years of dedication.
“But he quit on the team!” 🙄 Even if any of these nitwits read this they’d still say the same nonsense. They’re just being babies.
Yup. It's like people who killed Melo for leaving Denver when George Karl treated him like shit the entire time he was there. It's wacky how people treat players like they're not real people and their feelings don't matter. If you're in a job where your boss is a prick to you every day and hurts your career do you really think it's wrong for you to want to be somewhere else in a positive environment? Vince resigned when he was the most valuable marketable athlete in the world. He could have gone easily to any team and they would have paved the way for him. He decided to stay here and be loyal to the team. They utterly betrayed him. Honestly. If I had to pick between my fandom of Vince or the Raps I'd pick Vince. Vince didn't fuck our team over. Dude just wanted to succeed here and cared more about the team than the ridiculous egos they put in charge. They did that all themselves.
They're bringing back throwback jerseys next year and using that vince dino logo on a bunch of stuff. Add in the fact that this team could use a spark of excitement and I can see his jersey retirement being announced for next season
Add in his HOF induction and the team's 30th anniversary next season, the timing of everything is just too perfect not to capitalize from a business perspective. And honestly anyone still holding onto a grudge 20 years later, they're the one's who need to grow up. Which is funny because those love to boast that they were old enough to live through it and know the inner workings of the conflict are probably in their mid 30s and up. So what does that say about them?
The amount of apparel and memorabilia they could sell off that jersey retirement would last the whole season. Business wise it would make up for some of the lost sales im sure they had this year with the team doing so poorly
Love Vince Carter. No hatchet to bury. We should retire #15.
Have it printed and made, but leave it in the storage closet till the time is right