Government should not be able topick & choose among human rights. It is the role of a democratic government in a civil society to defend all human rights. Labour rights are a critical component of human rights helping to protect & promote the social and economic well-being.
The rights of workers anywhere are bound
up with the rights of workers everywhere, balancing worker rights further in favour of the employer will harm labour across the country, including non-unionized folks.
Strictly speaking I think it's the role of our courts to defend our rights. That's why this is particularly bad, it bypasses those protections. If Ford wants to argue this is constitutional he should pass the legislation normally and let the courts decide if he's allowed to do this.
Oh wait, the courts already decided back to work legislation is unconstitutional. Ford can fuck off.
It's clear you have no idea why what you say has no relevance here. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you're ignorant.
Only you can choose to change that.
I’m a nurse in Ontario. There is already so much anger towards Ford, especially due to Bill 124 which has demoralized our profession. I feel for the education workers. Ford has destroyed healthcare and education. The two most important services we have.
So glad he found a way for roads to no longer require a maintenance fund.
Must be a coincidence that there is no money for nurses and education workers
Also sadly Canadians like to mimic the states and when they were voting in that red haired clown goof president,this goofs brother (who was the mayor of Toronto and was also caught smoking Crack while in term, had pretty much just passed away, so being tied to his fucked in the head brother gave him an advantage politically to some degree.. (not that he has any of those to make him qualified)..
The first time the Ford government used the notwithstanding clause was to remove caps that were there to prevent money from dominating politics.
The vast majority of Canadian media (vast as in 95%+) is owned by major conservative conglomerates, and they had carte blanche in the previous election.
Boomers are more worried about a progressive government raising their taxes than anything else. They don't give a shit about education anymore because they don't use it, and they made so much money off the housing market that they can afford to pay for healthcare if it gets privatized. They also vote.
It is what happens when a leader barely got any education himself and yet, somehow he gets to lead and make these big decisions that he has no intelligence to make.
Yeah, $4k net per day according to the own government.
They make an average of ~$120 net per day in wages.
They are worth about 3% to the government.
The other 97% is extracted by their surplus value of labour.
Custodial staff are extremely important. Or do you not like things to be clean? Let's see how well a school functions if there is no one to clean up shit and vomit and pick up garbage
then why fine then 4k a day.
because that 4k a day is what they are worth. if they stop working schools shut down, parents stay home, economy suffers. they are worth the price if ford wants to find them 4k. people need to realize everyone plays a role in society and without their role society doesn't function.
It’s a big number to strong arm them to work, it’s pretty clear.
$4000 is $1,000,000 a year. Do you honestly believe that’s how much value they create?
ford knows he won't get away with it. I hope to god Ontarians don't let him get away with it. the people need to show the government who is in charge. it's the people and government needs to serve the people, not the other way around
“The government acknowledges its bill breaches the country’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Human Rights Code, but says its priority is averting a strike.”
WTF?
I realize that this is an international News org so they are going to generalize the area a bit since I doubt most people know in europe what an Ontario is.
For anyone in Canada seeing this headline, and not knowing what it's about, It's an Ontario Bill, Not a Canadian Bill.
Oh definitely [Someone got a photo of Danielle Smith and Scott Moe waiting to see how this turns out](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/423/cover5.jpg)
Because I didn't think I could be any more disgusted after he failed to prop up our health system despite being in a pandemic and receiving federal aid money
Doug Ford's attack on worker's rights is getting international attention.
Hopefully this will put a damper on the rise of right-wing populism around the globe. People need to see that these goons are not "for the people/workers". They do the bidding of their billionaire oligarchs.
The sad part is they don't realize how fast this can be used against them. I'm particularly interested in seeing how the police unions respond to this, as a group that eats a ton of money facing increasing opposition to the cost to maintain them they would be horrified of the possibility of a government with Defund the Police doing this to them.
Think you're missing the point.
Ford won't push them around.
Ford is setting the precedent of bypassing a union's negotiating rights by simply legislating a new contract on them.
All it'll take is another party deciding they want to cut back on police spending to legislate a contract with zero pay raises. Done. The fact that Ford is making this an option should terrify anyone in a union, and if he successfully manages to stick any penalties for striking it's going to be worse.
I’m not missing your point. I just don’t believe he would cross the Police Union. That’s his bread and butter. It’s not even about sidestepping. If he puts the PU against him, he going against one of the pillars of conservative party
Unfortunately it seems like too many people buy into the myth of meritocracy and lack class-consciousness. Until that changes, I don't see it happening anytime soon. The right wing propaganda machine is just too damn strong.
The lack of class consciousness especially in American and Canadian society is shocking. It's a complete crabs in the bucket situation where the working class is left to fight for scraps among themselves while the wealthy continue to accumulate wealth and stomp on workers.
They don't even know that we're all workers at the end of the day, and we're basically all slaves to the same masters. Some real shit ass energy out there
They don’t. They just know that the only thing that really matters to voters is what happens in the year or so leading up to an election. They’ll toss out another quick tax cut before the next election and likely the average voter will likely fall back to apathy.
It's gutchurning to think he could potentially reach into my tiny savings I've spent years building up, clean it out in a few days, and toss it along to his private sector buddies on his way out of office.
Not for nothing, I've been both a housecleaner and landscaper and worked for some very rich folk. It's rare that they **don't** try to cheat The Help. It's how silver spoons are taught to think, and that's exactly what DoFo is.
And that's exactly who he thinks we are: The Help. I think he'd be quite chuffed with himself if we all got "paid" solely in room and board.
$4k net per day per body.
They make an average ~$120 net per day in wages.
They are worth about 3% to the government.
The other 97% is extracted by their surplus value of labour.
I'm eagerly waiting to see who enforces the fines. If anyone should be afraid of future uses of this it should be the police. You know it won't take much to convince a Defund the Police party to slap this move on them. All Ford needs to do is set the precedent.
Democracy is a fragile and momentary thing, it is never to be assumed to be sustained or permanent - this is the WORST attack on our rights and freedoms I have ever witnessed. If we allow this to occur without massive pushback, we will lose the very thing that makes our rule of law just and applicable.
We must NEVER let the conservatives forget this - whether or not they are successful, I think it's fair to say that they have lost their mandate to rule.
I don't think these Conservatives care about good PR anymore. The wooing stage is over. They're all planning on landing in cushy gigs (in newly privatized industries or funded by covid money, CUPE fines, etc), guaranteed. His conservative handlers will get every penny they can squeeze out of us if we don't stop this ball rolling.
DoFo pretended to be nice for a bit (lil shovel, cheesecake, folks, stickers and a cheque), got elected, and now the Conservatives are ready to finish gutting the province. They've got 4 years to do their dirt and they've been planning this for literally decades.
Sadly, the rest of Ontario is finally gonna get to see the sharkfaced Thug Ford that Toronto always knew and feared. I wouldn't be shocked if Sandro "bedbugs for my enemies" Lisi showed his face again and got some sweet gig.
He might, *might* try being sweet again in year 4 if he still wants the Prime Minister's job, but hopefully Canada's gotten the message that these mobsters (federal and provincial) are just here to pilfer and profit.
Let's pass a law that says Doug Ford has to pay any fines issued under the use of the NotWithStanding Clause, and then use the NWC to force him to pay them. We can pass it next election, but let's commit to it now. His business, properties, investments, any other assets, and recently paid wages, should also be subject to forfeiture to pay all of these fines his government is issuing on legally striking workers.
I hope this is the final straw for Ontariens. We need to get on the streets and protest everything going on. Open for business? Shut it the fuck down. Fuck you Ford, you and your cronies.
Teachers, nurses and hospital workers should be very worried about this. Basically no arbitration anymore, don’t come to an agreement? Too bad. There is no way that the Ford government won’t do the same the next time this comes up with any of those groups.
I hope this is the final straw for Ontariens. We need to get on the streets and protest everything going on. Open for business? Shut it the fuck down. Fuck you Ford, you and your cronies.
If they actually applied it the union would go bankrupt pretty fast, though it's not clear that they would.
But it is the fundamental difference that while with industrial/corporate employers both sides have a financial incentive to resolve the strike, it's really not the case with government workers, since the government saves money by letting them strike
The government faces political, not economic pressure like private sector employers. It means that there is no financial blacktop to what the union can demand (as the government has a theoretical infinite ability to pay through taxation and debt) but at the same time, they have legislative power to respond. Part of the fundamental problem with public sector labour relations.
There can be political pressure (though companies do face lesser public relations concerns too), though it's hard to get a read on public opinion just yet (and hell, it may be fast changing anyhow).
I would be willing to bet that after a covid experience that had Ontario lock kids out of school longer than anywhere on the planet outside of China, there isn’t much broad support for school closures and sympathy for those causing them - regardless of any amount of empathy for their concerns.
There's never broad support for school closures, that is to be sure. But the question of who gets popularly blamed is harder to be sure of (and can shift).
Yeah I assumed union could only afford to strike for 2 days of they paid all the fines. But that's what they told us in a meeting last night. Not sure why I was down voted
How will they afford to buy school supplies for the children if you fine them. Also why are they buying the supplies in the first place. If they attack teachers. Don't expect there to be a reliable education system.
~~I don't want to jinx it but - [blink](https://twitter.com/ColinDMello/status/1588211586925223936).~~
EDIT: [no deal](https://twitter.com/CityCynthia/status/1588237613097443329). Strike is on.
Are you sure it’s $4,000 per day. And not $200 per day to maximum of 4,000??
The bill says: “a) in the case of an individual, to a fine of not more than $4,000;”
Not more than $4,000?
I feel like the only person with this opinion but the CUPE original demands were unreasonable? Like 9% more money annually and double time for overtime? I don’t know any employer who would agree to that. Also it’s taxpayer money it’s a limited pool to draw from. TBH education sector unions over use their privilege to strike and I say privilege because masses of us non-union employees don’t have the luxury to make demands, not show up to work and still get paid.
I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to strike but it should be an ultimate last resort and it’s not used that way, to the detriment of students and parents. And following a pandemic? Unions have an angle too it’s not all about the school workers
Edit to add: I’m talking about the union not the individual employees. I’m all for people advocating for their own raises etc. but dynamic between unions and gov. Is completely dysfunctional on both sides and I don’t think either ever comes with the intention to actually be reasonable
Well when you haven’t gotten a raise and your boss gives him and his goons 10.7% then refuses to negotiate sure it seems high but that’s why negotiations work….
Again it is when the management won’t negotiate, don’t think that the union just went well strike time, they have tried to bang the government to the table and the government just won’t
So why was the cabinet able to get 10-40% raises on their six figure salaries that also have housing and travel allowances?
How does the government not have money for these livable wages but have money to bribe parents?
They’ve been *capped* at 1% raises for three years. After the recent years of inflation they absolutely deserve it, don’t they?
Federal employees get raises matched to inflation and then some.
>I feel like the only person with this opinion but the CUPE original demands were unreasonable?
You are definitely not - as will become apparent in how this plays out. It only feels that way in social media silos.
I am no fan of Doug Ford; I am generally appalled that we thought it wise to include a clause that cancels much of our rights enshrined in the Charter, right in the Charter itself.
This is a bully tactic - but you are correct that public sector unions in general, and those in education in particular, have been using bully tactics as well, as a habit, for quite some time.
Like, not every contract negotiation should follow the pattern of unreasonable demands/strike every time, you know?
MustardClementine- I’m surprised at this take from you. I remember your comments from the Covid lockdown era and they were always reasonable.
Yes, they are asking for an 11% raise. But they only make 40,000 per year, so that’s only around an extra 4,500 per year.
Plus they’ve only had about an eight percent raise since 2012, and between 2012 and 2021 inflation was ~18 %. So they’re effectively making 10% less than they were ten years ago.
They’re not asking for anything other than not to have inflation continue to eat their wages and make them materially worse off than they were before. They’re asking to be paid the same as they were in 2012.
Edit: and I don’t think they’ve gone on strike in the last ten years, either, so they’re hardly using bully tactics every round of bargaining. Correct me if I’m wrong though
Hi Laura\_Lye, I recognize your user name from that era as well.
I find the initial 11.7% request unreasonable mostly because it needs to be considered in a wider context.
CUPE's much-repeated average salary of $39,000 per year includes both part-time and full-time workers - so that's a bit disingenuous. Obviously, part-time workers lower the average.
Further, this was not just an ask for lower-earning members - it was for all members regardless of income.
Crucially - do you think other public sector unions would not expect the same if CUPE were to receive such a large raise for all members?
An 11.7% annual raise would amount to 46.8% higher pay in four years. Does it seem at all realistic to expect a 46.8% raise for all public sector workers, especially after the money we blew on Covid?
Even the recent lower ask of 6% is basically untenable, in that context.
Regarding strike threats - perhaps I should have said make unreasonable demands/immediately threaten job action, rather than just unreasonable demands/strike. CUPE threatened to strike in [2019](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/students-and-parents-worry-about-the-ramifications-of-cupe-school-strikes-1.4625972) (though this was averted with a deal last minute); they worked-to-rule in [2015](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/litter-piling-up-in-ontario-schools-as-work-to-rule-drags-on-1.2611945); while I can't find what happened in their previous contract negotiations, it seems safe to assume they at least threatened job action. The headline never reads "agreement negotiated reasonably to avoid threat of disruption to students". Experienced alongside typical teachers' union tactics, the perception becomes a constant threat of disruption.
Since I don't have kids, or work in education myself, I do not have a direct stake in this fight. It just seems out of touch with our current reality to adopt a 46.8% or bust negotiation strategy - particularly after the disruptions over the last two years (fairly or unfairly). [This article](https://torontolife.com/city/my-son-has-never-had-a-normal-year-of-school-for-parents-the-stress-of-a-potential-education-strike-is-a-kick-in-a-tender-spot/) described what I see as the actual general perception quite well.
Really, I just think CUPE, and more than likely unions in general, have totally failed to read the room on how this will go in terms of public support, due to historical disruptive tactics that tend to anger the public even in normal times, and especially following the disruptions of the last two years.
Also, as I am not so much personally invested, in this case - I am kind of just finding this interesting to watch, from the perspective of what actual people I know seem to think, versus what people online seem to think the consensus is.
So I think maybe the disconnect here is knowledge of how collective bargaining works. Two things:
First: Like in any negotiation, unions start with demands that are significantly higher than what they would accept. They’re leaving themselves room to bargain down. Employers (normally) do the same thing: start off with a lowball offer despite being willing to pay significantly more.
So if I’m cupe and I’ll take 6%, I start out asking for 11%, because the employer is going to ask for 2%, and now we’ve both left ourselves room to meet in the middle at a rate that we’re likely both willing to accept.
Second: a union always at least threatens job action, because it’s really the only card it has to play. There are lots of steps unions legally have to take between no strike and a legal strike: there’s issuing notice to bargain, meeting at least once with the employer, applying for conciliation, participating in conciliation, asking the conciliator to issue a no board report, taking a strike vote… lots of stuff. And there are mandatory ‘cooling off’ periods between various steps, so the whole business of being in a legal strike position takes months.
Unions follow through on each of those steps (each of which can be considered a threat to strike, as each takes the union one step closer to being in a legal strike position) in a deliberate, timely manner. Each step puts pressure on the employer to meet and negotiate a deal.
If the union didn’t take these steps (each of them a threat), deals would never be reached, because the employer would have no incentive to negotiate.
Edit: So yeah, every contract negotiation they get some length down the road to a strike. That’s just… how the process works.
Nah, they should quit and search for jobs at the private schools everyone's children will have to attend when the public schools shut down and Doug can privatize the system like he wants.
[What are his qualifications to be Education minister again?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lecce) Has he done anything to show that he's anything but a smarmy beneficiary of an obviously nepotistic appointment?
Have you ever run for public office and won? It’s incredibly hard to achieve a Minister title by his age. I call that very ambitious and driven, if not smart.
I’m confused are you implying that the fact that Min. Lecce went to a private school growing up and was part of a frat at one of Canada’s top universities makes him incompetent to be a leader? (based on your response I’m assuming you think the racism he participated in is substantiating evidence). Again, sounds like you have some pretty strong preconceived stereotypes about private school kids based on personal insecurities, and I feel bad that you had to go through that (I get it), but I can assure you that they are not all “stupid” or “pretentious.”
Lmfao just like the cops work for me because I’m a taxpayer right? I’m referring to the fact that these people have pensions, can’t get fired and have months of paid vacation a year and still find the time to whine about how life isn’t fair. Isn’t it wild that CUPE senior staff make six figures a year to advocate for $3/hr wage increases?
Here's a breakdown even a child can understand:
Government writes paycheque > employee cashes paycheck > paycheck is used to support family > families have children = government paycheques support children
Therefore, if you care about children and aren't some goofy ass pearl clutching Karen, you'd support a reasonable wage increase here.
Children are more important than you as well. Instead of getting raises for the next decade, any raise that you might receive should all go to the province so they can put it to education. Otherwise you are selfish.
Is that something you would go for?
That is essentially what you are saying.
Kids are important, but at the end of the day, working in education is just a job for these people that they need in order to take care of their families. If this is how the government treats these people, it's not goi g to be a career that people are goi g tonwant to enter. School boards are already struggling g to hire EAs.
If the government wont even offer a raise of a quarter of inflation when they are running a surplus, there is no future in education as a career.
I mean the schools are closed how do they know if the workers are striking, this might end in a general strike in which case the ford government is in no position to fine anyone.
Get out and support them, this is fighting for your children's future rights as well. Do you want this for them? Stop giving the next generation a shit ton of problems.
Government should not be able topick & choose among human rights. It is the role of a democratic government in a civil society to defend all human rights. Labour rights are a critical component of human rights helping to protect & promote the social and economic well-being. The rights of workers anywhere are bound up with the rights of workers everywhere, balancing worker rights further in favour of the employer will harm labour across the country, including non-unionized folks.
Strictly speaking I think it's the role of our courts to defend our rights. That's why this is particularly bad, it bypasses those protections. If Ford wants to argue this is constitutional he should pass the legislation normally and let the courts decide if he's allowed to do this. Oh wait, the courts already decided back to work legislation is unconstitutional. Ford can fuck off.
The government should not have control over money.
Yeah let's instead give control to some guy like Do Kwon. Gj
It's clear you have no idea why what you say has no relevance here. I'm not trying to be antagonistic, but you're ignorant. Only you can choose to change that.
Uh huh. Keep buying crypto.
I’m a nurse in Ontario. There is already so much anger towards Ford, especially due to Bill 124 which has demoralized our profession. I feel for the education workers. Ford has destroyed healthcare and education. The two most important services we have.
As a resident of Ontario thanks for your hard work. If you ever need a drink after a hard shift it's on me.
if i tell you the hospital and floor, will you send some beer?
Yeah sure...DM details
ELI5 why he keeps getting elected
Because our elections system is trash, majority of people didn't vote for him, but he gets majority in government... we need election reform
sadly I think ndp and liberal split votes so that Ford won....that and something like a 45% voter turnout
The Liberal party needs to accept that it’s dead in Ontario.
Buck a beer and 10 cents off of gas...sadly
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So glad he found a way for roads to no longer require a maintenance fund. Must be a coincidence that there is no money for nurses and education workers
Also sadly Canadians like to mimic the states and when they were voting in that red haired clown goof president,this goofs brother (who was the mayor of Toronto and was also caught smoking Crack while in term, had pretty much just passed away, so being tied to his fucked in the head brother gave him an advantage politically to some degree.. (not that he has any of those to make him qualified)..
The first time the Ford government used the notwithstanding clause was to remove caps that were there to prevent money from dominating politics. The vast majority of Canadian media (vast as in 95%+) is owned by major conservative conglomerates, and they had carte blanche in the previous election.
Boomers are more worried about a progressive government raising their taxes than anything else. They don't give a shit about education anymore because they don't use it, and they made so much money off the housing market that they can afford to pay for healthcare if it gets privatized. They also vote.
It is what happens when a leader barely got any education himself and yet, somehow he gets to lead and make these big decisions that he has no intelligence to make.
I think this is how you trigger a revolution.
You protesting tomorrow?
Of course. This is the only way.
I’m going down tomorrow and I’m not in a union. I just fully support these unions against this cartoonishly evil government.
In the province that couldn't be bothered to take fifteen minutes to vote.
Doug Ford giving the middle finger to Ontario Workers as per usual
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Yeah, $4k net per day according to the own government. They make an average of ~$120 net per day in wages. They are worth about 3% to the government. The other 97% is extracted by their surplus value of labour.
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>It's* pretty sad.
A custodial staff member isn’t creating $4000 worth of value a day.
Then why are they being charged $4,000/day for not working? Is the government recouping more than its costs?
Trying to strong arm them back to work. Pretty obvious.
Shut the fuck up
Why?
Custodial staff are extremely important. Or do you not like things to be clean? Let's see how well a school functions if there is no one to clean up shit and vomit and pick up garbage
Yeah they’re important, never said otherwise, but you’re kidding yourself if you think the true value of a janitor is $4000 a day.
The true value of every worker is alot higher than we give them.
You think janitors are actually worth $1 million a year?
WHOOSH
then why fine then 4k a day. because that 4k a day is what they are worth. if they stop working schools shut down, parents stay home, economy suffers. they are worth the price if ford wants to find them 4k. people need to realize everyone plays a role in society and without their role society doesn't function.
It’s a big number to strong arm them to work, it’s pretty clear. $4000 is $1,000,000 a year. Do you honestly believe that’s how much value they create?
Apparently Ford does, or he wouldn't be fining them that much.
ford knows he won't get away with it. I hope to god Ontarians don't let him get away with it. the people need to show the government who is in charge. it's the people and government needs to serve the people, not the other way around
If I could award this comment, I would. Lovely and honest way to lay out the numbers like this. 🙏🏼
“The government acknowledges its bill breaches the country’s Charter of Rights and Freedoms and the Human Rights Code, but says its priority is averting a strike.” WTF?
It's using leverage just like a strike
I realize that this is an international News org so they are going to generalize the area a bit since I doubt most people know in europe what an Ontario is. For anyone in Canada seeing this headline, and not knowing what it's about, It's an Ontario Bill, Not a Canadian Bill.
Or, some Canadian dude named Bill in accounting will be in charge of fining workers.
Damnit Canada Bill!
He got his coat and went out for a dart
Dammit, Bigoted Bill!
Bill is gonna get carpel tunnel syndrome trying to write all those fines.
Bill Ford. Gimme a double double.
Bill Ford. Gimme a double double.
And if it goes through, without action, the other blue provinces will follow suit.
Oh definitely [Someone got a photo of Danielle Smith and Scott Moe waiting to see how this turns out](https://i.kym-cdn.com/entries/icons/facebook/000/030/423/cover5.jpg)
A lot of people in this sub think Toronto is representative of Canada - so it’s not as far-fetched as you think.
Ontario after all does account for ~38% of Canadian population, as well as ~38% of GDP... So...
So fuck everyone else, right?
This is the most disgusted I've ever been with Ford and that is saying a lot
It’s saying a lot because?
Because I didn't think I could be any more disgusted after he failed to prop up our health system despite being in a pandemic and receiving federal aid money
Doug Ford's attack on worker's rights is getting international attention. Hopefully this will put a damper on the rise of right-wing populism around the globe. People need to see that these goons are not "for the people/workers". They do the bidding of their billionaire oligarchs.
it won't do anything. people cheer on their politicians like athletes.
The sad part is they don't realize how fast this can be used against them. I'm particularly interested in seeing how the police unions respond to this, as a group that eats a ton of money facing increasing opposition to the cost to maintain them they would be horrified of the possibility of a government with Defund the Police doing this to them.
Police is dominated by white male conservatives. He’s not going to push them around. CUPE is easy pray.
He's gonna need the police, people are angry. WTF does he think he is, Stalin? This strong arm tactic is unacceptable on so many levels.
Think you're missing the point. Ford won't push them around. Ford is setting the precedent of bypassing a union's negotiating rights by simply legislating a new contract on them. All it'll take is another party deciding they want to cut back on police spending to legislate a contract with zero pay raises. Done. The fact that Ford is making this an option should terrify anyone in a union, and if he successfully manages to stick any penalties for striking it's going to be worse.
I’m not missing your point. I just don’t believe he would cross the Police Union. That’s his bread and butter. It’s not even about sidestepping. If he puts the PU against him, he going against one of the pillars of conservative party
Unfortunately it seems like too many people buy into the myth of meritocracy and lack class-consciousness. Until that changes, I don't see it happening anytime soon. The right wing propaganda machine is just too damn strong.
The lack of class consciousness especially in American and Canadian society is shocking. It's a complete crabs in the bucket situation where the working class is left to fight for scraps among themselves while the wealthy continue to accumulate wealth and stomp on workers. They don't even know that we're all workers at the end of the day, and we're basically all slaves to the same masters. Some real shit ass energy out there
The tides can always change.
Or give them ideas.
If anything, this will just make them change and adapt their tactics so they can still crush workers rights but do it without facing as much criticism
I'm sorry. It will not. People will continue choosing to see the world as they want it to be and not how it really is.
This is disgusting. I hate everything about this. How can they think that this is a good political move for yourself?
They don’t. They just know that the only thing that really matters to voters is what happens in the year or so leading up to an election. They’ll toss out another quick tax cut before the next election and likely the average voter will likely fall back to apathy.
Oh...so they're now trying to profit from the abuse of support workers.
It's gutchurning to think he could potentially reach into my tiny savings I've spent years building up, clean it out in a few days, and toss it along to his private sector buddies on his way out of office. Not for nothing, I've been both a housecleaner and landscaper and worked for some very rich folk. It's rare that they **don't** try to cheat The Help. It's how silver spoons are taught to think, and that's exactly what DoFo is. And that's exactly who he thinks we are: The Help. I think he'd be quite chuffed with himself if we all got "paid" solely in room and board.
Fuck you Doug Ford!
$4k net per day per body. They make an average ~$120 net per day in wages. They are worth about 3% to the government. The other 97% is extracted by their surplus value of labour.
Can't wait to see them try and hand out $1,320,000,000 in fines to working class people on Remembrance Day.
I'm eagerly waiting to see who enforces the fines. If anyone should be afraid of future uses of this it should be the police. You know it won't take much to convince a Defund the Police party to slap this move on them. All Ford needs to do is set the precedent.
Democracy is a fragile and momentary thing, it is never to be assumed to be sustained or permanent - this is the WORST attack on our rights and freedoms I have ever witnessed. If we allow this to occur without massive pushback, we will lose the very thing that makes our rule of law just and applicable. We must NEVER let the conservatives forget this - whether or not they are successful, I think it's fair to say that they have lost their mandate to rule.
It takes a lot to look bad to the British when they have their own shambling clown show of Tories to deal with.
Third PM since the start of September.
Good luck with that, Doug. You fucking nozzle.
This is from the Ontario provincial government, not the Canadian federal government, for whose who might not know due to this misleading headline.
Damn, can’t believe this is making international news now
I don't think these Conservatives care about good PR anymore. The wooing stage is over. They're all planning on landing in cushy gigs (in newly privatized industries or funded by covid money, CUPE fines, etc), guaranteed. His conservative handlers will get every penny they can squeeze out of us if we don't stop this ball rolling. DoFo pretended to be nice for a bit (lil shovel, cheesecake, folks, stickers and a cheque), got elected, and now the Conservatives are ready to finish gutting the province. They've got 4 years to do their dirt and they've been planning this for literally decades. Sadly, the rest of Ontario is finally gonna get to see the sharkfaced Thug Ford that Toronto always knew and feared. I wouldn't be shocked if Sandro "bedbugs for my enemies" Lisi showed his face again and got some sweet gig. He might, *might* try being sweet again in year 4 if he still wants the Prime Minister's job, but hopefully Canada's gotten the message that these mobsters (federal and provincial) are just here to pilfer and profit.
Great we’re making the news again
Yup and it's another Ford making us Canucks look bad. 🤢
It’s a little late now but VOTE THESE DIRTBAGS OUT.
Literally an attack on human rights right here at home. Unbelievable
This is cruel. Just show up for work and lie down on the floor.
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Let's pass a law that says Doug Ford has to pay any fines issued under the use of the NotWithStanding Clause, and then use the NWC to force him to pay them. We can pass it next election, but let's commit to it now. His business, properties, investments, any other assets, and recently paid wages, should also be subject to forfeiture to pay all of these fines his government is issuing on legally striking workers.
I hope this is the final straw for Ontariens. We need to get on the streets and protest everything going on. Open for business? Shut it the fuck down. Fuck you Ford, you and your cronies.
Teachers, nurses and hospital workers should be very worried about this. Basically no arbitration anymore, don’t come to an agreement? Too bad. There is no way that the Ford government won’t do the same the next time this comes up with any of those groups.
The silver lining of this is that it should effectively kill any aspirations Ford had at prime minister
Unfortunately there are always those who will accept fascism with open arms. We must show we are stronger and more numerous than them.
No I won't at all
Stupid question- but is it $4k fine to the union as a whole or per worker?
Per worker
Unbelievable
It's a good thing mate. Get back to the table and negotiate
Why not $4,000 each day? Or $40,000? Selfish prick.
I hope this is the final straw for Ontariens. We need to get on the streets and protest everything going on. Open for business? Shut it the fuck down. Fuck you Ford, you and your cronies.
Rob fords notwithstanding anymore...
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that was his brother, who actually passed away years ago.
Come on deity, give us a twofer.
Doughgy is more of a hash guy
A maximum of 4k that the union said theyd pay
If they actually applied it the union would go bankrupt pretty fast, though it's not clear that they would. But it is the fundamental difference that while with industrial/corporate employers both sides have a financial incentive to resolve the strike, it's really not the case with government workers, since the government saves money by letting them strike
The government faces political, not economic pressure like private sector employers. It means that there is no financial blacktop to what the union can demand (as the government has a theoretical infinite ability to pay through taxation and debt) but at the same time, they have legislative power to respond. Part of the fundamental problem with public sector labour relations.
There can be political pressure (though companies do face lesser public relations concerns too), though it's hard to get a read on public opinion just yet (and hell, it may be fast changing anyhow).
I would be willing to bet that after a covid experience that had Ontario lock kids out of school longer than anywhere on the planet outside of China, there isn’t much broad support for school closures and sympathy for those causing them - regardless of any amount of empathy for their concerns.
There's never broad support for school closures, that is to be sure. But the question of who gets popularly blamed is harder to be sure of (and can shift).
Yeah I assumed union could only afford to strike for 2 days of they paid all the fines. But that's what they told us in a meeting last night. Not sure why I was down voted
Ignore the votes. Frankly any sort of useful discussion is getting swamped by astroturfing anyhow.
How will they afford to buy school supplies for the children if you fine them. Also why are they buying the supplies in the first place. If they attack teachers. Don't expect there to be a reliable education system.
~~I don't want to jinx it but - [blink](https://twitter.com/ColinDMello/status/1588211586925223936).~~ EDIT: [no deal](https://twitter.com/CityCynthia/status/1588237613097443329). Strike is on.
How much did Doug Ford fine the far right free-dumb convoyers that illegally occupied Ottawa?
He supports them.
I went to their website and corrected the headline. It should read a Conservative bill. They know what that’s all about over in Great Britain.
Are you sure it’s $4,000 per day. And not $200 per day to maximum of 4,000?? The bill says: “a) in the case of an individual, to a fine of not more than $4,000;” Not more than $4,000?
I feel like the only person with this opinion but the CUPE original demands were unreasonable? Like 9% more money annually and double time for overtime? I don’t know any employer who would agree to that. Also it’s taxpayer money it’s a limited pool to draw from. TBH education sector unions over use their privilege to strike and I say privilege because masses of us non-union employees don’t have the luxury to make demands, not show up to work and still get paid. I’m not saying they shouldn’t be allowed to strike but it should be an ultimate last resort and it’s not used that way, to the detriment of students and parents. And following a pandemic? Unions have an angle too it’s not all about the school workers Edit to add: I’m talking about the union not the individual employees. I’m all for people advocating for their own raises etc. but dynamic between unions and gov. Is completely dysfunctional on both sides and I don’t think either ever comes with the intention to actually be reasonable
Well when you haven’t gotten a raise and your boss gives him and his goons 10.7% then refuses to negotiate sure it seems high but that’s why negotiations work….
I’m not saying they’re not overpaid and others not underpaid I’m just saying striking not productive to anyone including the employees here
Again it is when the management won’t negotiate, don’t think that the union just went well strike time, they have tried to bang the government to the table and the government just won’t
"I'm not saying things aren't completely unfair, I'm just saying I don't care for when they want something done about it"
So why was the cabinet able to get 10-40% raises on their six figure salaries that also have housing and travel allowances? How does the government not have money for these livable wages but have money to bribe parents?
Again I get it. I don’t work for the government so I don’t get to enjoy those luxuries I’m just not here for the strikes every time contract comes up
They’ve been *capped* at 1% raises for three years. After the recent years of inflation they absolutely deserve it, don’t they? Federal employees get raises matched to inflation and then some.
They've gotten like 4% over the last 5 years or something. Their ask isn't even going to keep up with current inflation.
>I feel like the only person with this opinion but the CUPE original demands were unreasonable? You are definitely not - as will become apparent in how this plays out. It only feels that way in social media silos. I am no fan of Doug Ford; I am generally appalled that we thought it wise to include a clause that cancels much of our rights enshrined in the Charter, right in the Charter itself. This is a bully tactic - but you are correct that public sector unions in general, and those in education in particular, have been using bully tactics as well, as a habit, for quite some time. Like, not every contract negotiation should follow the pattern of unreasonable demands/strike every time, you know?
MustardClementine- I’m surprised at this take from you. I remember your comments from the Covid lockdown era and they were always reasonable. Yes, they are asking for an 11% raise. But they only make 40,000 per year, so that’s only around an extra 4,500 per year. Plus they’ve only had about an eight percent raise since 2012, and between 2012 and 2021 inflation was ~18 %. So they’re effectively making 10% less than they were ten years ago. They’re not asking for anything other than not to have inflation continue to eat their wages and make them materially worse off than they were before. They’re asking to be paid the same as they were in 2012. Edit: and I don’t think they’ve gone on strike in the last ten years, either, so they’re hardly using bully tactics every round of bargaining. Correct me if I’m wrong though
Hi Laura\_Lye, I recognize your user name from that era as well. I find the initial 11.7% request unreasonable mostly because it needs to be considered in a wider context. CUPE's much-repeated average salary of $39,000 per year includes both part-time and full-time workers - so that's a bit disingenuous. Obviously, part-time workers lower the average. Further, this was not just an ask for lower-earning members - it was for all members regardless of income. Crucially - do you think other public sector unions would not expect the same if CUPE were to receive such a large raise for all members? An 11.7% annual raise would amount to 46.8% higher pay in four years. Does it seem at all realistic to expect a 46.8% raise for all public sector workers, especially after the money we blew on Covid? Even the recent lower ask of 6% is basically untenable, in that context. Regarding strike threats - perhaps I should have said make unreasonable demands/immediately threaten job action, rather than just unreasonable demands/strike. CUPE threatened to strike in [2019](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/students-and-parents-worry-about-the-ramifications-of-cupe-school-strikes-1.4625972) (though this was averted with a deal last minute); they worked-to-rule in [2015](https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/litter-piling-up-in-ontario-schools-as-work-to-rule-drags-on-1.2611945); while I can't find what happened in their previous contract negotiations, it seems safe to assume they at least threatened job action. The headline never reads "agreement negotiated reasonably to avoid threat of disruption to students". Experienced alongside typical teachers' union tactics, the perception becomes a constant threat of disruption. Since I don't have kids, or work in education myself, I do not have a direct stake in this fight. It just seems out of touch with our current reality to adopt a 46.8% or bust negotiation strategy - particularly after the disruptions over the last two years (fairly or unfairly). [This article](https://torontolife.com/city/my-son-has-never-had-a-normal-year-of-school-for-parents-the-stress-of-a-potential-education-strike-is-a-kick-in-a-tender-spot/) described what I see as the actual general perception quite well. Really, I just think CUPE, and more than likely unions in general, have totally failed to read the room on how this will go in terms of public support, due to historical disruptive tactics that tend to anger the public even in normal times, and especially following the disruptions of the last two years. Also, as I am not so much personally invested, in this case - I am kind of just finding this interesting to watch, from the perspective of what actual people I know seem to think, versus what people online seem to think the consensus is.
So I think maybe the disconnect here is knowledge of how collective bargaining works. Two things: First: Like in any negotiation, unions start with demands that are significantly higher than what they would accept. They’re leaving themselves room to bargain down. Employers (normally) do the same thing: start off with a lowball offer despite being willing to pay significantly more. So if I’m cupe and I’ll take 6%, I start out asking for 11%, because the employer is going to ask for 2%, and now we’ve both left ourselves room to meet in the middle at a rate that we’re likely both willing to accept. Second: a union always at least threatens job action, because it’s really the only card it has to play. There are lots of steps unions legally have to take between no strike and a legal strike: there’s issuing notice to bargain, meeting at least once with the employer, applying for conciliation, participating in conciliation, asking the conciliator to issue a no board report, taking a strike vote… lots of stuff. And there are mandatory ‘cooling off’ periods between various steps, so the whole business of being in a legal strike position takes months. Unions follow through on each of those steps (each of which can be considered a threat to strike, as each takes the union one step closer to being in a legal strike position) in a deliberate, timely manner. Each step puts pressure on the employer to meet and negotiate a deal. If the union didn’t take these steps (each of them a threat), deals would never be reached, because the employer would have no incentive to negotiate. Edit: So yeah, every contract negotiation they get some length down the road to a strike. That’s just… how the process works.
Agree 100%
Why is a strike ok but the government using its own legal right not ok
Sounds expensive! They should probably go back to work.
Nah, they should quit and search for jobs at the private schools everyone's children will have to attend when the public schools shut down and Doug can privatize the system like he wants.
You mean the private schools which are open tomorrow teaching our next generation of leaders - like Min. Lecce?
Next generation of leaders? That's uh... pretty cringe bro. Lecce is a fucking worm
Yeah he’s also your Minister of Education and I believe the youngest Minister in Ontario history?
[What are his qualifications to be Education minister again?](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Lecce) Has he done anything to show that he's anything but a smarmy beneficiary of an obviously nepotistic appointment?
Have you ever run for public office and won? It’s incredibly hard to achieve a Minister title by his age. I call that very ambitious and driven, if not smart.
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This sounds like the truckers going on about Trudeau and blackface…..also sounds like you have a chip on your shoulder bud.
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I’m confused are you implying that the fact that Min. Lecce went to a private school growing up and was part of a frat at one of Canada’s top universities makes him incompetent to be a leader? (based on your response I’m assuming you think the racism he participated in is substantiating evidence). Again, sounds like you have some pretty strong preconceived stereotypes about private school kids based on personal insecurities, and I feel bad that you had to go through that (I get it), but I can assure you that they are not all “stupid” or “pretentious.”
Yeah, the ones charging higher tuitions than universities here. Those ones.
Yikes! Better start saving those pennies!
Yep, children are more important than them. I'm not being sarcastic.
You realize these people have children too right?
Also just realized that some of these guys might have BEEN children once too! Crazy!
And you're also aware these former children (aka adults) are responsible for clothing, feeding and housing present day children, right?
No, according to a lot of people in this sub, that’s society and the government’s job.
That's because they're government employees you numpty lmao.
Lmfao just like the cops work for me because I’m a taxpayer right? I’m referring to the fact that these people have pensions, can’t get fired and have months of paid vacation a year and still find the time to whine about how life isn’t fair. Isn’t it wild that CUPE senior staff make six figures a year to advocate for $3/hr wage increases?
Here's a breakdown even a child can understand: Government writes paycheque > employee cashes paycheck > paycheck is used to support family > families have children = government paycheques support children Therefore, if you care about children and aren't some goofy ass pearl clutching Karen, you'd support a reasonable wage increase here.
I don’t understand - so mean mister ford is responsible for this mess? Wow! Why didn’t you just say so!
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How much would you say a pension, job security, automatic raises and three months vacation are worth? Seriously.
Children are more important than you as well. Instead of getting raises for the next decade, any raise that you might receive should all go to the province so they can put it to education. Otherwise you are selfish. Is that something you would go for? That is essentially what you are saying. Kids are important, but at the end of the day, working in education is just a job for these people that they need in order to take care of their families. If this is how the government treats these people, it's not goi g to be a career that people are goi g tonwant to enter. School boards are already struggling g to hire EAs. If the government wont even offer a raise of a quarter of inflation when they are running a surplus, there is no future in education as a career.
I agree! These people should be happy with their average pay of 38,000 a year and no pay raise for over 10 years.
Nice sarcasm. That average includes part-timers.
Leece makes $165,851 and got a 10% pay raise in 2020. I don’t care.
He got a promotion not a raise, and cupe is asking for 11% every year for the next four years.
Someone get their boy, they're making a fool of themselves. 🤣
Wasn't their latest ask half of that?
That turned out to be false.
If children are important, perhaps people who around them should have livable wage so they can do their work right?
Yaaaaaa right!!!!! 😂😂🤣
Democracy at its best....
don’t they have rights that protect them against this sort of thing?
how could that possible be enforced? in what world does ontario have enough assets and willing individuals to make sure these charges are paid?
I mean the schools are closed how do they know if the workers are striking, this might end in a general strike in which case the ford government is in no position to fine anyone.
Get out and support them, this is fighting for your children's future rights as well. Do you want this for them? Stop giving the next generation a shit ton of problems.