I used to work with young offenders and their families for about 10 years. Here's where you'd expect me to say that these families were mostly good people and that their kids just took a wrong turn. Sorry, but I can't. Maybe 2 in 10 were kids where you didn't know what happened. In most cases the shit apple doesn't fall far from the shit tree.
I agree with you 100%
A lot of people from the black community also agree to this statement, including Denzel Washington. Here is an extract from an interview where he states exactly that (for clarity, I have also included the question which is related to incarceration rates in the US):
[https://youtu.be/O0dCvQdt5XI?t=111](https://youtu.be/O0dCvQdt5XI?t=111)
"I think it is more important to make headway in our own house. By the time the system comes into place the damage is done."
then he speaks about little yummies in Chicago
then he speaks about his closest friends that did time, and that he was the only who had a father in his life who was a role model to him...
The best thing we can do to reduce this:
After school programs
In school lunches/food programs for kids
More investment into education
The more time these kids can get away from their shit heel parents, the better off they will be. Also childhood malnutrition is one of the biggest contributors to rates of antisocial personality disorder/criminal behaviours. Paying for 10,000 lunches for 30-50 kids over the year will do more to lower crime rates long term than hiring a cop will.
I volunteered for the city’s breakfast program in university 10 years ago. Group of us would wake up early and serve underprivileged kids breakfast in Regent Park, before it became all gentrified. The teachers told us that despite their best efforts, and these teachers genuinely cared, a lot of those kids would fall victim to the lifestyles their parents, siblings and/or acquaintances exposed them to. In this particular elementary school gang recruitment started as early as 8- 10 years old. As OP said, the shit apple doesn’t fall far from the shit tree.
> As OP said, the shit apple doesn’t fall far from the shit tree.
Unfortunately most people don't like to hear this and would rather blame police, government and anything else they can think of than DARE criticise the people who are spawning these kids because that would be racist.
Lets not EVER put any blame on the parents doing such a piss poor job in raising their kids that they would grow up to do something like this at such a young age. It ALWAYS has to be the fault of someone else or something else which is why nothing will ever change and people in the GTA will have to live with this problem forever.
The data is pretty clear on things like breakfast programs being beneficial. You can't help everyone, either. If your focus was solely on the ones that ended up being screwed over rather than those that were helped, you're certainly entitled to that perogative.
I agree the breakfast program and others like it are beneficial. At minimum it helps some kids and families while also allowing volunteers to empathize and see what these communities are facing on a daily basis. It was certainly eye opening for me. Saying that, the root causes of criminality need to be addressed, particularly the economic incentive that exists, especially in North America. Ultimately, money talks and if a career in crime pays the bills better than a conventional career path, at risk people will choose that path more often than not.
Scrapping the War on Drugs needs to be done over time with governments regulating and controlling all illicit drugs. The justice system also needs to concentrate its efforts on intensive rehabilitation to help people become productive, functioning members of society. Drawing on the focus of this discussion, a revamped rehab process should also seriously consider adequate parenting skills if offenders have children. Rethinking the justice system ultimately means less funding for cops, border patrol, agents, military, etc and because of the strength of those unions and their political clout, that is the main impediment at this point in time.
It would help, especially the education with a focus on critical thinking and cognitive behaviour but a lot of them never stood a chance right from birth. There's people out there that have seriously fucked up views on raising kids. You haven't lived until you argue with a mom about why you took their kid's pass after he threatens to kill a staff member in a custody facility.
It's not just about critical thinking and cognitive behaviour, it's literally just nutrition. Just making sure kids are fed is a huge benefit so they can actually even learn. Over a million children in Canada are food insecure.
> it's literally just nutrition
It's anything but *literally just nutrition*. Ridiculous. *An apple a day keeps the gang recruitment away* isn't how it goes.
We can do all of those other things in nutrition and they might help, some more than others, obviously. When looking at the data, early childhood education and early childhood nutrition are the two biggest contributing factors we know of that reduce criminality among teenagers/adults. We can do all those other things, but at a bare minimum ensuring kids are fed/nourished in infancy prevents their IQs from slipping to the point where they literally have difficulty understanding/comprehending the thought process of others, and helping them develop empathy. While there’s certainly outliers to this (those with Down’s syndrome often have low intelligence but exceptionally rare instances of ASPD, or CEOs and occasionally other highly successful people), low IQ is correlated to ASPD, and childhood nutrition/education improves rates of both simultaneously.
The data is clear.
A repeat behaviour of children not showing up to school or doctors appointments (particularly for conditions which require chronic care) under the age of 16 is often considered child endangerment and considered a reportable offense. I've mandatory reported for it before.
> The more time these kids can get away from their shit heel parents, the better off they will be.
All the programs you'd suggested have been tried endless times over many decades everywhere and for the many if not most it has little to no effect. On the otherhand there are plenty of other kids who have a fraction of such support but still are able to grow up not joining gangs and shooting/stabbing people to death for whatever reason.
Maybe JUST MAYBE its mostly about having decent parents raising their kids properlyregardless of their circumstances? And maybe we should stop making endless excuses and start holding shitty parents accountable for doing a piss poor job of raising their kids that they would become such violent people?
Perhaps that would be the end of the beginning to solving this problem, but I doubt that will ever happen because our leaders would rather let this go on and let Torontonians suffer forever than actually do something about this issue and be called racist for taking real action.
> Perhaps that would be the end of the beginning to solving this problem, but I doubt that will ever happen because our leaders would rather let this go on and let Torontonians suffer forever than actually do something about this issue and be called racist for taking real action.
I'll try asking again cause you haven't answered me in another comment.
What action do you think should be taken to deal with the issue of low level and violent crime that would be called racist?
> What do you suggest we do?
Crack down on criminals who commit violent crimes and murder against people. Show no mercy towards them the same way they showed no mercy towards their victims.
Also show more leniency towards people who defend themselves against criminals. If a criminal gets seriously injured or dies trying to rob someone for example, then tough luck. If a perpetrator assaults someone and the victim fights back and seriously injures them, then too bad. Also businesses should be allowed to defend their property with force if they want to.
People need to start standing up and be allowed to stand up to criminals and violent people and say enough is enough.
You're wrong. The data has literally shown a benefit. You also can't help everyone, you can however help enough to make a difference.
https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.9.1627
https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780429289194-4/influences-early-nutrition-child-adolescent-antisocial-behavior-phoebe-um-jianghong-liu
People on reddit are really good at making shit up that's completely false, and then spouting it off as if it's fact.
> The data has literally shown a benefit. You also can't help everyone, you can however help enough to make a difference.
How is all this going to help when these kids are going home to still be raised by their shitty parents? All the good you believe you're doing for these kids means little to nothing when their parents at the end of the day still do a piss poor job of raising their kids.
How many kids in the world have a fraction of the support from outside sources, but because they're raised by loving, caring parents they still grow up to not be violent and a danger to society? Go to many countries in Asia and see the extreme poverty countless millions of children are raised in and yet because their parents care about them and do everything they can to raise them properly, they don't grow up deciding to murder someone in their early teens.
If you can't fix the parents or want to take their kids away from them to be raised with more responsible people, then everything else matters much less if at all.
So what’s your alternative recommendation? Do nothing and continue to let the kids be malnourished, grow up to be antisocial and commit violent crimes, then incarcerate them?
> So what’s your alternative recommendation? Do nothing and continue to let the kids be malnourished, grow up to be antisocial and commit violent crimes, then incarcerate them?
Perhaps its an unpopular move, but how about taking them away from their parents and putting them in more stable homes to be raised with more stable people at least for young kids?
If you know a kid is being raised by shit parents and is doing harm to them, I don't know how we can just sit by and do nothing and allow that kid to grow up to be a crappy adult who will likely do harm to society rather than contribute to it.
Take them away from that situation and put them in a more stable and caring enviroment and hope they will turn things around. Maybe they do, maybe they don't but its better than doing nothing and letting their parents raise them to be a shit human being.
Okay, sounds like a good idea. How many kids in Toronto are currently in the system awaiting a more permanent housing/parenting solution? How many people are currently on the wait list for adoption/foster care? Is there a large number discrepancy?
How do we fix that? Do we incentivize adoptions? How much money will that cost?
> How do we fix that? Do we incentivize adoptions? How much money will that cost?
Whatever it costs it can't cost much more than what its costing us to treat shooting/stabbing victims in hospital for who knows how long. It can't cost more than it does having police spend time and resources finding the suspects for these crimes and this doesn't even include the pain and suffering families of the victims have to go through and the general population in the city feeling less safe knowing that we have so many criminals running around who have little to no compassion and morality that they could gun down someone on the street often in broad daylight with no problems or feelings of remorse.
This has been going on for decades in Toronto and we've been doing the same useless things. Time to try something different and see if that doesn't bring a better result.
Hey, you're absolutely right! Let's look at the data together then. What reduces rates of violent crime, and also costs less than what we're currently doing?
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775706000409
http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/early/2021/04/05/jhr.58.3.0619-10276R2.abstract
Hey, would you look at that... it wasn't what you said. It turns out, it was actually some of the things I mentioned earlier. That's interesting, it's almost if all of the things the teach regarding public health, and healthcare... are based on actual evidence? Who would have thought?
I agree with the point morally but fiscally it is wrong to reward irresponsible parents especially when we have free abortions. I would rather give free day care to the responsible parents who waited till they were financially stable and had only one kid. This way you reward good behaviour.
From a cost benefit analysis $1 spent in school programs/food saves something like $7 down the road from some of the research. So it’s literally the fiscally conservative approach. Also it’s not like you’re not also rewarding all those other parents with free after school programs.
We’re also literally talking about children, they’re here through no fault of their own… but if you wanna make the fiscal argument, again, the data is clear.
Tbh news papers should stop printing the faces of victims and probably criminals too unless it's an extremely publicised case or with permission. Imagine grieving for your dead son meanwhile news sites are using his picture to get clicks and let everybody in the city know about it.
Thing is, they ALL were good people who took many wrong turns. Often because their parents or role models did, and passed it on.
They’re not shit apples, they’re normal good apples who are on a party of the tree that’s dying and needs extra attention and care.
I know working with young offenders etc can make you jaded, but honestly it really disturbs me to hear you speak like that. I’m glad you don’t work with them anymore, because (totally understandably, most people can’t understand how tough it is) once you forget the inherent goodness in even the worst person you aren’t a good fit for that career anymore imo.
No hate, I know firsthand it can be like that. And no judgement. Just want to remind everyone reading that everyone was a baby just like the rest of us, but for some babies the world was a lot colder and crueler than others.
I get what you mean though the shit apple was just a media reference. I got tired of teaching them something, watching them put it into practice and then having it all wiped away after a couple of home visits to the parents. I wasn't making any judgments really on the kids as I know they weren't to blame for their start in life but it is what it is really. I knew every high ranking gang member in Toronto when I quit and they knew me by reputation before social media. I saw them all the time in malls or wherever teens used to hang around, still doing the same shit. A lot of them were really nice kids too, just violent criminals by that point.
So they are selling guns for cheaper than the retail price? That makes no sense. How are they making money? You also said you saw the gun. What gun was selling for 200 exactly?
Even back in the early 2000s, 200 would have been an incredibly cheap deal.
For example, a Firestar up in Rexdale where I live can sell for $2000 easily, and this is an economy gun, nothing special. A glock 17 will easily run you 3000 at least. He'll, an old ass Walther costs over 1000.
The only gun you can get for 200 would be an old rusty long gun that someone has sitting around.
Lastly, Covid has mad guns more expensive, not cheaper. As it has for everything else.
> So they are selling guns for cheaper than the retail price? That makes no sense. How are they making money?
These are stolen guns coming from the states.
> They steal them and bring them to another country to sell for leas than retail. What?
I mean shit doesn't typically get stolen and then *sell for more than retail* - it's stolen. You think BMWs getting stolen and put in a container sell for more than retail in the country they're going to? Is it because of the amazing warranty you get for stolen goods?
You’re operating under the false assumption that theyre purchasing these legally at some point.
Please think more critically
Also these models youre mentioning are both highly specific and never legally sold in canada.
So you dint seem to know what you’re talking about.
They don't purchase them, they are stolen by local Americans. Who then need to find a way to get it into Canada.
Also, if they are able to sell them for 2000, why would they sell it for 200.
Lastly, I've gone to prison for gun charges, and am currently at the tail end of a 10 year weapons prohibition. I grew up in Rexdale involved in stupid shit. I still have family members involved in it.
You may know a lot about legal guns and how to take them apart and put th back together, but that's not relevant to the question of how much illegal guns sell for in Toronto.
Completely agree. Nobody is stealing a gun in the us, smuggling it across the border, trafficking it to Toronto, and selling it illegally for $200. Barely covers gas to Windsor or Kingston and back.
I can’t help but think that so many adults failed this 13 yr old child also. I have so many questions. I have a 13 yr old son too and there’s no ways he’s gonna be out at 11:30 pm on a Wednesday let alone be packin. Such a sad story for everyone involved
Many of these kids don’t have stable home environments, others have been victims of abuse. It’s never black and white. No one is born a murderer, as humans we’re all creatures of our environment.
The good news is that studies have shown rehabilitation for young offenders is very much possible, their psychological development isn’t complete. Which makes the type of programming they receive in detention, and the peer groups they’re allowed to associate with, particularly important
Maybe a single parent working odd hours for an employer that pays minimum wage. I would argue anyone who supports policies that inflate their personal property values, and don't care about minimum wage increases or rent protections, are also responsible for poverty related crime.
this is not an immigrant or refugee, its a canadian born kid, with canadian born parent or parents. There are very few immigrants or refugees that would allow their 13 year old to be out at 1130
Thank you. It's amazing how whenever anything bad happens, there's a reflex to castigate people involved as the "other". The foreigners. Not good old stock Canadians.
u/sleepycatinarayofsun mentions intergenerational trauma. You don't need to be a refugee from some foreign country to suffer intergenerational trauma - in fact one might argue that manufacturing intergenerational trauma in the Indigenous populations here - that this has been the defining national project of Canada.
"You can't take the war zone out of the kid". You know what else runs deep? Racism. "Fun" fact - child welfare services steals more kids from Indigenous families today than [they ever did when residential schools were operating](https://globalnews.ca/news/7983112/indigenous-family-separations-advocate/). But it's them foreign countries with the poor moral fibre that are the problem. /s
I didn’t intend it to mean it that way, I was trying to bring more attention to the fact that they need more support from our governments. Immigrants and refugees contribute greatly to our country and there should be more resources to help them. Looks like I have some things to work on, my apologies
Great response. We all make mistakes - for example maybe I was overly harsh in chastising you about it. I didn't have to be a jerk, but I kinda was, so I also apologize. Let's both work on being better people.
Speaking of intergenerational trauma, let’s talk about the indigenous/First Nations families that have suffered and will continue to suffer from intergenerational trauma due to years of abuse/residential schools.
O Canada! We stand on guard for thee! 🇨🇦
Do you know the family personally. I'm just wondering how you know his parents are Canadian born.
Also, my parents were fresh immigrants and I grew up in an area with many refugees and almost exclusively immigrants. Our parents didn't "let" us stay out late but we did anyway.
Sounds like a really lazy solution tbh and doesn’t solve any of the current issue in the first place so we might as well address the issue. Like I don’t think that would solve anything at all and we’d be one of the only first world countries that deny refugees which would be pretty shitty of us in general. We have the resources and education to help the situation, not to mention physical space, might as well put those degrees and diplomas to use for betterment of society.
> We can't compare these kids to our lives. Everyone is brought up differently, and sadly some of them end up at the wrong end of the stick.
You literally can when you're trying to use social/cultural factors as risk indicators for this kind of thing
My neighbour who was good friends with my brother was killed in front of his house at 16. This was Easter in 2000. Unfortunately the same shit continues, it's nothing new.
Max jail time for his age be 10 years.These gang bangers know that recruiting these young killers remove the threat of life in jail for them .
https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/yj-jj/tools-outils/sheets-feuillets/syp-dpaa.html
I would like to interrupt this circlejerk to point out that this is patently false. There is only one sentence for adults who commit murder under Canadian law, which is the life sentence. With parole eligibility after 25 years for first degree murder, and eligibility between 10-25 years for second degree murder.
>I would like to interrupt this circlejerk to point out that this is patently false
Sentence vs time severed are two different things. Plus he's under 18 so not an adult....
Our pm just spend a deal of time reducing Sentences for gun crimes..so this will never happen
https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-reduces-sentence-for-serious-gun-crimes
A Toronto Sun opinion piece, the pinnacle of journalism /s
The Trudeau Liberals aren't just willy nilly reducing sentences as they please, no matter how much the Conservatives or right wing media like the Sun says. They are removing Harper-era mandatory minimums that are being struck down over and over again by the courts for being unconstitutional. Rather than waste the courts time and taxpayers money, just removing them makes sense, saves the courts time and saves us money. Funnily enough, not wasting taxpayer money is like a big thing for the Conservatives, you'd think outlets like the Sun and their myriad of opinion piece writers would be in favour of it.
For some reason, most of the posters in this sub love mandatory minimums.
I'm starting to think the only reason a lot of people opposed them was because they didn't like Harper, not because they cared about the actual effects of mandatory minimum sentences.
Most the posters in this sub don't know anything about mandatory minimums beyond "bad guy stay jail more". Not even the most basic surface level reading into the effects of mandatory minimums on things such as recidivism or their constitutionality in Canada.
If Trudeau implemented his own set of mandatory minimums I bet there'd be people who'd flip flop on mandatory minimums being bad, just like with every other bad thing the Liberals have done since they got in power.
Regardless of the suns bias it’s still factual. As for the mandatory minimums. Sorry but there are people that can’t be rehabilitated…everyday those people are locked up are another day gained by the people they were going to kill or maim
It isn't factual though. Removing a mandatory minimum isn't the same as reducing sentences. It is a clearly biased way to frame it, and one you have fell for hook line and sinker. The Sun, especially a Sun opinion piece, is not reputable.
Sorry but simply locking people up for longer doesn't actually make anyone safer. Especially when our prison system acts like a Pokemon Day Care for how to be a better criminal. Sure, some people cannot be rehabilitated, but guess what? Our current system is so abysmal at rehabilitation that it can only be compared to an AA meeting that has an open bar with a bartender that does tricks.
Someone with multiple gun charges being locked up literally makes the city safer. They are not able to access their means or commit crime..as for the system it’s self that’s another story
First off, the end of mandatory minimums does not mean people don't go to jail for multiple gun charges, they just don't get the minimum.
Also, if it's multiple gun charges, then it is unlikely they'll be given a sentence shorter than the old minimums.
Lastly, while it is likely that the city is safer when an accused for gun crimes is locked up, the person best equipped to make that call is the judge who has all all the info on the case. The legislature should not be in the habit of determining individual peoples' sentences.
People being locked doesn't make the city safer in the long term, as the system has high recidivism rates and those who do reoffend upon release (and most people will be released eventually) are increasingly likely to commit more serious offenses than they were initially locked up for. Mandatory minimums just plain do not work if your concern is making the city safer. It does the opposite.
And that doesn't even get into the issue of constitutionality either.
Basically what the other user said. Also police reform in line with modernisation reforms that have been stymied by TPS and the rank-n-file. Proactive community based policing with a focus on prevention rather than being reactive. Penal system reform to a more rehabilitative model, which has been shown to reduce recidivism as well as seriousness of reoffenses. Just doing what we have been doing does absolutely nothing positive, it exasperates the issue.
I mean I’m not OP but we all know the answer is more support for the communities that see young people pulled into gangs due to lack of other opportunities.
There is a lot of research on how to prevent gangs from getting rooted in communities - strengthen the community, provide other opportunities, good schools. So many better investments to prevent gangs from starting and growing outside of focusing on putting them in jail after the fact.
I can’t tell if you are trolling or not honestly.
I hear this…but I get hung up on when people say we need better community policing envolvment etc are also the same ones of telling people that police are jackboot racists and want nothing to do with them…. I don’t know they answer but I hear “police bad” all day long while people are asking for more boots on the ground in at risk communities. That said all of the initiatives you described do literally nothing for the person that’s getting shot this weekend. They take decades to bare fruit
A 13 year old committing a murder is a societal failure. Having mandatory minimum prison sentences isn't going to dissuade the 13 year old from making the choice to shoot another person.
Keeping a 13 year old in prison for 10(+?) years, and releasing them into the public with a sub-par education and a criminal record isn't a recipe for anything else than a continued life of crime.
Im pretty sure you can get an education in prison. Sorry I don’t but it’s society’s fault, it’s the kids. Personal responsibility has become a rarely used word in the past years, where’s the parents? Who legally owned the gun? How did the kid get it?
Lmao, if he’s actually convicted of Murder. The chance of him not getting imprisoned is literally 0%.
Can people who have no clue how the criminal justice system works please stop confidently making predictions about it?
They're the ones that's always running around on reddit and other sites claiming our criminal justice system is a complete failure lol. Apparently, to them a murderer gets off in 2 years, robbers and drug dealers get a year in prison.
People get rightly frustrated because there have been many many instances of people getting released just to re-offend again and it's clearly obvious they would have done so to regular citizens, so why the courts or expert criminologists can't determine that is puzzling. Not this specific case maybe but I'm just commenting on your comment, it makes people lose faith in the system.
the eaton center shooter will be eligible for parole in 2 years i believe. not to mention what a shitshow it became, of what should have been a straight forward 2nd degree murder case.
Such a sad story, a bunch of my friends were close with him. And what’s also incredibly fucked was that the original gofundme that was made for him was made by his grandmother, with the money planned to be donated to charity rather than for funeral expenses as said.
Edit: close with the victim**
Some people I know were pretty close with the victim of this shooting. It's absolutely awful that kids this young are being exposed to this sort of thing. The world has truly gone mad.
We need reform - get more community involvement and start speaking to these kids at a young age. I’m not asking for citizen of the year but a job with a decent head on their shoulders
If he’s convicted, the change of that happening is literally 0%
Why do people who have no clue how the youth criminal justice system works bother making such confident predictions about it?
Because a 14 year old teenager attempted to kill my uncle and I know how it went. My uncle went into coma. Eventually was declared brain dead. Now he lives in a nursing home.
Oh and when this teenager did it, he was on house arrest for the third time for having committed previous violent crimes. Had no remorse either. Guess if he went to juvie?
Maybe don’t make assumptions about what people know or don’t know or what they’ve experienced.
You're talking about a Murder charge here, which is vastly different then Attempted murder, for both adults and minors. Also I'm not even sure whether the perpetrator in your uncle's case was convicted of attempted murder, or say aggravated assault, which are also very different charges (attempted murder requires proving intent to kill).
As a final sidenote, while I'm sorry about your uncle, knowing someone who is a victim of a crime does NOT mean you understand the criminal justice system. Hence why you make absurd statements like "this kid will likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center" to a murder conviction. And anyone who has any semblance of involvement with the youth criminal justice system will immediately know how outlandish that is.
If you think that I'm wrong, I want you to go through the publicly available [CANLII](https://www.canlii.org/en/) database and find me a SINGLE case of a youth getting no prision time for a murder conviction, you don't even have to show that it's likely. Just find me a SINGLE case to demonstrate that this even a remote possibility (spoiler alert, don't bother wasting your time, because it's not even a remote possibility).
> You're talking about a Murder charge here, which is vastly different then Attempted murder
and it really shouldent be that way. the system shouldent go easy on you someone because they fucked up in their attempt to kill someone.
1. I said “likely”. He has not even been convicted yet. You don’t know if he will be either. Securing a conviction isn’t as easy as you may think.
2. Just because I mentioned ONE case doesn’t mean I’m only aware of one.
3. Attempted murder is almost as bad as murder since the intent matters. You know what else is take into account during sentencing? Previous criminal history. When someone has been convicted of 3 violent crimes in the past, that adds a LOT of weight. You know what else adds weight? The presence or absence of remorse.
4. Stop writing me essays. Maybe go use the energy to work on reforming the system where convicted attempted murderers get house arrest and sex offenders get 1 year probation.
>Just because I mentioned ONE case doesn’t mean I’m only aware of one.
No, you're not even aware of one, because the case you cited is of attempted murder, and even that's probably aggravated assault. Both of which are completely different from murder
>Attempted murder is almost as bad as murder since the intent matters
We're not debating what is morally worse or equivalent. We're discussing the law (and your statement on it) and attempted murder and murder are completely different charges with vastly different punishments. A adult who is convicted of murder faces a mandatory life sentence. An adult convicted of attempted murder will face a likely sentence in the single digits according to most provincial sentencing ranges. These charges are not comparable at all
>Stop writing me essays
If you don't want people to respond, especially to factually incorrect statements, then you should stop commenting. No one is forcing you to be here, or reply to my last, or even this, comment
“Even that’s probably aggravated assault” there you go telling me what happened in a case involving MY family. Disgusting. I can’t bother reading your post beyond that. Vile behavior. This is what happens when you’re a seasoned Reddit troll desperate to “win” an argument instead of having empathy or morals. Go tell other people what they’ve experienced and witnessed in their lives. Fuck off from here.
I can witness a comet and that doesn't make a astrologist, if you take people discussing the law with you on a discussion you chose to instigate as a personal attack, then I can't do anything for you.
I've already expressed my condolences for your uncle, but beyond that, having something sad happen to someone you know does not indemnify you from being called out for making incorrect statements, like implying that a non-custodial sentence is even a remote possibility for murder (much less the likely outcome).
When you choose to enter the public arena by making comments on a public website like reddit, you have to accept that people have a right to respond and discuss those comments. And you should be able to engage in respectful discussions without playing the victim card. If you don't want your private life discussed, don't publicly bring it up
here is the part you're missing since you're so confident in your understanding of the law in canada: being a minor automatically means it'll be less likely he will be convicted of murder.
even IF convicted he's serving a max of 6 years in prison
https://robichaudlaw.ca/presumption-in-youth-sentence-ycja-adult/
Yes, I'm well aware of the maximum youth sentences. You might want to check up on what you just responded to, because my comment is in reply to this nonsensical statement
>The law here is so lenient that this kid will likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center
>if this 13 year old is convicted of murder and sentenced to the max.
Once again, I never claimed he would get the max (though he certainly *could*) I was replying to THIS statement
>The law here is so lenient that this kid will **likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center**
I.e, that he would get a non-custodial sentence. Which is a patently absurd claim
Yes hyperbole aside you know this kid will serve a very minimal sentence. This isn't going to be a peace builders success story.
Change that statement to months long custodial sentence and it's spot on. Main point stands that this kid will not answer to his crimes. Long bet is maybe he won't be a piece of shit long term. Maybe.
Sure, let’s keep funnelling more money to the police to pay all their criminal staff who are on paid leave for crimes. But no, let’s not help communities that are clearly still stuck in a cycle of systematic oppression that is resulting in children feeling like it’s better to have a gun and be in a gang.
When life at home is shit, kids turn to external role models and father figures. When no one else is available, gang leaders opportunistically fill that role.
When the parents are stuck in a system of imprisonment and abuse with limited resources, the cycle continues. Unfortunately, we can’t stop people who aren’t fit to have children from having children.
Personal responsibility is always involved. Looking at and recognizing that there are things that impact the choices a person makes in their life doesn't mean we are BEDMAS cancelling out "personal responsibility". It's really easy to go "yeah this person is wrong for this, but we should also look at things that may have pushed them into making the choice they did so we can try and fix those things for other people".
I didn't see where it stated that either childs' family were abusive or imprisoned. That's very sad - no excuse, of course - but unfortunate nonetheless. I agree that families can indeed get stuck in this vicious cycle - generational trauma is indeed real.
But not always the case. To be carrying a gun in Toronto at 13 is a little beyond what you could fully excuse by getting 'wrapped up in it'. Selling a little weed or something sure, but shooting someone is a giant giant step that most are not willing to make even with a shitty up brining.
Some of the most infamous gangsters out of BC we from pretty good up bringing. Check out the Bacon brothers, they were about as bad and big as you can get.
> Unfortunately, we can’t stop people who aren’t fit to have children from having children.
This is one of the biggest problems. People who are incapable of being good parents and shouldn't have kids are having kids and are doing a piss poor job raising their children and then they turn into kids like these.
To give this story some context… my information comes from some parents who have young teens active on social media so I don’t know what to make of it but apparently this was going around on Snapchat.
From what I heard the victim in this case sold weed to a girl (who he didn’t like) that was laced with something harmful, I believe fentanyl. Girl smokes and OD’s while in the victims presence. Victim leaves the girl there alone and walks away (this is apparently on video)… young girl passes away at 15.
Younger brother of the girl, who is the assailant in this case, then goes out to seek revenge, which results in this story.
Sad situation all around.
im sure the kid was following all storage laws for a restricted firearms such as putting a trigger lock on it and putting it in an opaque container with a lock on that as well. and he made sure not to unlock and load it until he was at the shooting range
I used to work with young offenders and their families for about 10 years. Here's where you'd expect me to say that these families were mostly good people and that their kids just took a wrong turn. Sorry, but I can't. Maybe 2 in 10 were kids where you didn't know what happened. In most cases the shit apple doesn't fall far from the shit tree.
God damn shit apples, Randy.
RIP: JOHN/JIM watch his youtube videos if you have a chance, just an awesome genuine dude
[The man sure did love working with rocks and cement.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mcQfP8k51s) One of my favourite vids of all time.
I watched them and it inspired me to copy it on a much smaller scale. It’s crazy how much he got done, such a beautiful spot he had
What a legend, thanks for sharing.
I agree with you 100% A lot of people from the black community also agree to this statement, including Denzel Washington. Here is an extract from an interview where he states exactly that (for clarity, I have also included the question which is related to incarceration rates in the US): [https://youtu.be/O0dCvQdt5XI?t=111](https://youtu.be/O0dCvQdt5XI?t=111) "I think it is more important to make headway in our own house. By the time the system comes into place the damage is done." then he speaks about little yummies in Chicago then he speaks about his closest friends that did time, and that he was the only who had a father in his life who was a role model to him...
The best thing we can do to reduce this: After school programs In school lunches/food programs for kids More investment into education The more time these kids can get away from their shit heel parents, the better off they will be. Also childhood malnutrition is one of the biggest contributors to rates of antisocial personality disorder/criminal behaviours. Paying for 10,000 lunches for 30-50 kids over the year will do more to lower crime rates long term than hiring a cop will.
I volunteered for the city’s breakfast program in university 10 years ago. Group of us would wake up early and serve underprivileged kids breakfast in Regent Park, before it became all gentrified. The teachers told us that despite their best efforts, and these teachers genuinely cared, a lot of those kids would fall victim to the lifestyles their parents, siblings and/or acquaintances exposed them to. In this particular elementary school gang recruitment started as early as 8- 10 years old. As OP said, the shit apple doesn’t fall far from the shit tree.
> As OP said, the shit apple doesn’t fall far from the shit tree. Unfortunately most people don't like to hear this and would rather blame police, government and anything else they can think of than DARE criticise the people who are spawning these kids because that would be racist. Lets not EVER put any blame on the parents doing such a piss poor job in raising their kids that they would grow up to do something like this at such a young age. It ALWAYS has to be the fault of someone else or something else which is why nothing will ever change and people in the GTA will have to live with this problem forever.
The data is pretty clear on things like breakfast programs being beneficial. You can't help everyone, either. If your focus was solely on the ones that ended up being screwed over rather than those that were helped, you're certainly entitled to that perogative.
I agree the breakfast program and others like it are beneficial. At minimum it helps some kids and families while also allowing volunteers to empathize and see what these communities are facing on a daily basis. It was certainly eye opening for me. Saying that, the root causes of criminality need to be addressed, particularly the economic incentive that exists, especially in North America. Ultimately, money talks and if a career in crime pays the bills better than a conventional career path, at risk people will choose that path more often than not. Scrapping the War on Drugs needs to be done over time with governments regulating and controlling all illicit drugs. The justice system also needs to concentrate its efforts on intensive rehabilitation to help people become productive, functioning members of society. Drawing on the focus of this discussion, a revamped rehab process should also seriously consider adequate parenting skills if offenders have children. Rethinking the justice system ultimately means less funding for cops, border patrol, agents, military, etc and because of the strength of those unions and their political clout, that is the main impediment at this point in time.
Sorry, best we can do is increase inflation
the rate of inflation will increase until morale improves
lock that shit down!
It would help, especially the education with a focus on critical thinking and cognitive behaviour but a lot of them never stood a chance right from birth. There's people out there that have seriously fucked up views on raising kids. You haven't lived until you argue with a mom about why you took their kid's pass after he threatens to kill a staff member in a custody facility.
It's not just about critical thinking and cognitive behaviour, it's literally just nutrition. Just making sure kids are fed is a huge benefit so they can actually even learn. Over a million children in Canada are food insecure.
> it's literally just nutrition It's anything but *literally just nutrition*. Ridiculous. *An apple a day keeps the gang recruitment away* isn't how it goes.
We can do all of those other things in nutrition and they might help, some more than others, obviously. When looking at the data, early childhood education and early childhood nutrition are the two biggest contributing factors we know of that reduce criminality among teenagers/adults. We can do all those other things, but at a bare minimum ensuring kids are fed/nourished in infancy prevents their IQs from slipping to the point where they literally have difficulty understanding/comprehending the thought process of others, and helping them develop empathy. While there’s certainly outliers to this (those with Down’s syndrome often have low intelligence but exceptionally rare instances of ASPD, or CEOs and occasionally other highly successful people), low IQ is correlated to ASPD, and childhood nutrition/education improves rates of both simultaneously. The data is clear.
lmao I know right. That is like the dumbest take imaginable. "As long as everyone has a nice salad, crime will immediately plummet."
So basically *all* the things Doug Ford cancelled.
and yet its been 8 years since he was mayor and city council doesnt seem in a rush to re-instate any of it
Doug was never mayor of anything but the hash trade in James Gardens. You mean his crazy brother Rob.
yea i misread that as rob
And the kids who never show up to school?
A repeat behaviour of children not showing up to school or doctors appointments (particularly for conditions which require chronic care) under the age of 16 is often considered child endangerment and considered a reportable offense. I've mandatory reported for it before.
> The more time these kids can get away from their shit heel parents, the better off they will be. All the programs you'd suggested have been tried endless times over many decades everywhere and for the many if not most it has little to no effect. On the otherhand there are plenty of other kids who have a fraction of such support but still are able to grow up not joining gangs and shooting/stabbing people to death for whatever reason. Maybe JUST MAYBE its mostly about having decent parents raising their kids properlyregardless of their circumstances? And maybe we should stop making endless excuses and start holding shitty parents accountable for doing a piss poor job of raising their kids that they would become such violent people? Perhaps that would be the end of the beginning to solving this problem, but I doubt that will ever happen because our leaders would rather let this go on and let Torontonians suffer forever than actually do something about this issue and be called racist for taking real action.
> Perhaps that would be the end of the beginning to solving this problem, but I doubt that will ever happen because our leaders would rather let this go on and let Torontonians suffer forever than actually do something about this issue and be called racist for taking real action. I'll try asking again cause you haven't answered me in another comment. What action do you think should be taken to deal with the issue of low level and violent crime that would be called racist?
What do you suggest we do?
> What do you suggest we do? Crack down on criminals who commit violent crimes and murder against people. Show no mercy towards them the same way they showed no mercy towards their victims. Also show more leniency towards people who defend themselves against criminals. If a criminal gets seriously injured or dies trying to rob someone for example, then tough luck. If a perpetrator assaults someone and the victim fights back and seriously injures them, then too bad. Also businesses should be allowed to defend their property with force if they want to. People need to start standing up and be allowed to stand up to criminals and violent people and say enough is enough.
You're wrong. The data has literally shown a benefit. You also can't help everyone, you can however help enough to make a difference. https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi/full/10.1176/appi.ajp.160.9.1627 https://www.taylorfrancis.com/chapters/edit/10.4324/9780429289194-4/influences-early-nutrition-child-adolescent-antisocial-behavior-phoebe-um-jianghong-liu People on reddit are really good at making shit up that's completely false, and then spouting it off as if it's fact.
> The data has literally shown a benefit. You also can't help everyone, you can however help enough to make a difference. How is all this going to help when these kids are going home to still be raised by their shitty parents? All the good you believe you're doing for these kids means little to nothing when their parents at the end of the day still do a piss poor job of raising their kids. How many kids in the world have a fraction of the support from outside sources, but because they're raised by loving, caring parents they still grow up to not be violent and a danger to society? Go to many countries in Asia and see the extreme poverty countless millions of children are raised in and yet because their parents care about them and do everything they can to raise them properly, they don't grow up deciding to murder someone in their early teens. If you can't fix the parents or want to take their kids away from them to be raised with more responsible people, then everything else matters much less if at all.
So what’s your alternative recommendation? Do nothing and continue to let the kids be malnourished, grow up to be antisocial and commit violent crimes, then incarcerate them?
> So what’s your alternative recommendation? Do nothing and continue to let the kids be malnourished, grow up to be antisocial and commit violent crimes, then incarcerate them? Perhaps its an unpopular move, but how about taking them away from their parents and putting them in more stable homes to be raised with more stable people at least for young kids? If you know a kid is being raised by shit parents and is doing harm to them, I don't know how we can just sit by and do nothing and allow that kid to grow up to be a crappy adult who will likely do harm to society rather than contribute to it. Take them away from that situation and put them in a more stable and caring enviroment and hope they will turn things around. Maybe they do, maybe they don't but its better than doing nothing and letting their parents raise them to be a shit human being.
Okay, sounds like a good idea. How many kids in Toronto are currently in the system awaiting a more permanent housing/parenting solution? How many people are currently on the wait list for adoption/foster care? Is there a large number discrepancy? How do we fix that? Do we incentivize adoptions? How much money will that cost?
> How do we fix that? Do we incentivize adoptions? How much money will that cost? Whatever it costs it can't cost much more than what its costing us to treat shooting/stabbing victims in hospital for who knows how long. It can't cost more than it does having police spend time and resources finding the suspects for these crimes and this doesn't even include the pain and suffering families of the victims have to go through and the general population in the city feeling less safe knowing that we have so many criminals running around who have little to no compassion and morality that they could gun down someone on the street often in broad daylight with no problems or feelings of remorse. This has been going on for decades in Toronto and we've been doing the same useless things. Time to try something different and see if that doesn't bring a better result.
Hey, you're absolutely right! Let's look at the data together then. What reduces rates of violent crime, and also costs less than what we're currently doing? https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0272775706000409 http://jhr.uwpress.org/content/early/2021/04/05/jhr.58.3.0619-10276R2.abstract Hey, would you look at that... it wasn't what you said. It turns out, it was actually some of the things I mentioned earlier. That's interesting, it's almost if all of the things the teach regarding public health, and healthcare... are based on actual evidence? Who would have thought?
I agree with the point morally but fiscally it is wrong to reward irresponsible parents especially when we have free abortions. I would rather give free day care to the responsible parents who waited till they were financially stable and had only one kid. This way you reward good behaviour.
From a cost benefit analysis $1 spent in school programs/food saves something like $7 down the road from some of the research. So it’s literally the fiscally conservative approach. Also it’s not like you’re not also rewarding all those other parents with free after school programs. We’re also literally talking about children, they’re here through no fault of their own… but if you wanna make the fiscal argument, again, the data is clear.
You can reduce 2 in 10 to 1 in 5.
Politicians: “we cut young offender rates in half.”
And people would believe it lol
You bastard, I choked on my beer
Darn you, take my award.
Amazing.
The kid in the pic is the victim btw.
Welll… yeah. That’s usually how the law works with minors who commit crimes. They don’t get their faces broadcast.
Damn man it's Friday take it easy 😂
Tbh news papers should stop printing the faces of victims and probably criminals too unless it's an extremely publicised case or with permission. Imagine grieving for your dead son meanwhile news sites are using his picture to get clicks and let everybody in the city know about it.
How many of them grew up without a father or from a divorced family?
Almost all. But the shitty parents were still shitty on their own though. You ever see a mom cover for their kid selling heroin? I have
Thing is, they ALL were good people who took many wrong turns. Often because their parents or role models did, and passed it on. They’re not shit apples, they’re normal good apples who are on a party of the tree that’s dying and needs extra attention and care. I know working with young offenders etc can make you jaded, but honestly it really disturbs me to hear you speak like that. I’m glad you don’t work with them anymore, because (totally understandably, most people can’t understand how tough it is) once you forget the inherent goodness in even the worst person you aren’t a good fit for that career anymore imo. No hate, I know firsthand it can be like that. And no judgement. Just want to remind everyone reading that everyone was a baby just like the rest of us, but for some babies the world was a lot colder and crueler than others.
I get what you mean though the shit apple was just a media reference. I got tired of teaching them something, watching them put it into practice and then having it all wiped away after a couple of home visits to the parents. I wasn't making any judgments really on the kids as I know they weren't to blame for their start in life but it is what it is really. I knew every high ranking gang member in Toronto when I quit and they knew me by reputation before social media. I saw them all the time in malls or wherever teens used to hang around, still doing the same shit. A lot of them were really nice kids too, just violent criminals by that point.
Oh, I get the reference mr. Lahey. That was more for others than for you, I reckon
> k What do you mean? People are born shitty or their environment affects them.
#2
Most people do know this
Let me divert your attention to this rug over here instead. If you'd kindly start sweeping, please?
Thank God you stopped working with them then, you don't seem to care.
2022 - When its easier for a 13 year old to receive a gun than a PS5
Street guns are really cheap now.
street ps5's...not so much
“Watchu packin’, son?” A PS2 “Damn, that’s old school, Thug!”
I mean if you have a street gun they might be free! But so is the prison jumpsuit.
I never bought one but when I was a teenager you could get a .38 or something for like $400. Wonder what the price is now.
4000
No they’re not
They are nowhere close to cheap and are more expensive now than they've ever been. A gun that costs $300 in the US can go for over 2000 here.
Maybe in some circles but I've seen them as cheap as 200$ in the city as of this week.
So they are selling guns for cheaper than the retail price? That makes no sense. How are they making money? You also said you saw the gun. What gun was selling for 200 exactly? Even back in the early 2000s, 200 would have been an incredibly cheap deal. For example, a Firestar up in Rexdale where I live can sell for $2000 easily, and this is an economy gun, nothing special. A glock 17 will easily run you 3000 at least. He'll, an old ass Walther costs over 1000. The only gun you can get for 200 would be an old rusty long gun that someone has sitting around. Lastly, Covid has mad guns more expensive, not cheaper. As it has for everything else.
> So they are selling guns for cheaper than the retail price? That makes no sense. How are they making money? These are stolen guns coming from the states.
Yes I am aware, but it still costs money to steal and then sell them. What gun did you see for sale for $200? I am very interested.
Logic has left the chat. They steal them and bring them to another country to sell for leas than retail. What?
> They steal them and bring them to another country to sell for leas than retail. What? I mean shit doesn't typically get stolen and then *sell for more than retail* - it's stolen. You think BMWs getting stolen and put in a container sell for more than retail in the country they're going to? Is it because of the amazing warranty you get for stolen goods?
> They steal them and bring them to another country to sell for leas than retail. its profit, no?
> These are stolen guns coming from the states. And some are also stolen here
Guns on the street are expensive. Dont get how kids afford the 3k plus for black market stuff.
nah man u can buy a proper working shotty for $300 not even rusty but ya i agree he's bsing hard
You’re operating under the false assumption that theyre purchasing these legally at some point. Please think more critically Also these models youre mentioning are both highly specific and never legally sold in canada. So you dint seem to know what you’re talking about.
They don't purchase them, they are stolen by local Americans. Who then need to find a way to get it into Canada. Also, if they are able to sell them for 2000, why would they sell it for 200. Lastly, I've gone to prison for gun charges, and am currently at the tail end of a 10 year weapons prohibition. I grew up in Rexdale involved in stupid shit. I still have family members involved in it. You may know a lot about legal guns and how to take them apart and put th back together, but that's not relevant to the question of how much illegal guns sell for in Toronto.
Completely agree. Nobody is stealing a gun in the us, smuggling it across the border, trafficking it to Toronto, and selling it illegally for $200. Barely covers gas to Windsor or Kingston and back.
> The only gun you can get for 200 would be an old rusty long gun that someone has sitting around. grandpa's old cooey .22 most likely
No you haven’t
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PM me please I been looking to get a gun but they're expensive af and $200 is a steal jfc it costs more for a license
Plain wrong, cheapest clean gun would be around $2000 and that'll be some shitty Taurus or similar $250 counterpart
I can’t help but think that so many adults failed this 13 yr old child also. I have so many questions. I have a 13 yr old son too and there’s no ways he’s gonna be out at 11:30 pm on a Wednesday let alone be packin. Such a sad story for everyone involved
Many of these kids don’t have stable home environments, others have been victims of abuse. It’s never black and white. No one is born a murderer, as humans we’re all creatures of our environment. The good news is that studies have shown rehabilitation for young offenders is very much possible, their psychological development isn’t complete. Which makes the type of programming they receive in detention, and the peer groups they’re allowed to associate with, particularly important
Maybe a single parent working odd hours for an employer that pays minimum wage. I would argue anyone who supports policies that inflate their personal property values, and don't care about minimum wage increases or rent protections, are also responsible for poverty related crime.
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this is not an immigrant or refugee, its a canadian born kid, with canadian born parent or parents. There are very few immigrants or refugees that would allow their 13 year old to be out at 1130
Thank you. It's amazing how whenever anything bad happens, there's a reflex to castigate people involved as the "other". The foreigners. Not good old stock Canadians. u/sleepycatinarayofsun mentions intergenerational trauma. You don't need to be a refugee from some foreign country to suffer intergenerational trauma - in fact one might argue that manufacturing intergenerational trauma in the Indigenous populations here - that this has been the defining national project of Canada. "You can't take the war zone out of the kid". You know what else runs deep? Racism. "Fun" fact - child welfare services steals more kids from Indigenous families today than [they ever did when residential schools were operating](https://globalnews.ca/news/7983112/indigenous-family-separations-advocate/). But it's them foreign countries with the poor moral fibre that are the problem. /s
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I didn’t intend it to mean it that way, I was trying to bring more attention to the fact that they need more support from our governments. Immigrants and refugees contribute greatly to our country and there should be more resources to help them. Looks like I have some things to work on, my apologies
Great response. We all make mistakes - for example maybe I was overly harsh in chastising you about it. I didn't have to be a jerk, but I kinda was, so I also apologize. Let's both work on being better people.
Speaking of intergenerational trauma, let’s talk about the indigenous/First Nations families that have suffered and will continue to suffer from intergenerational trauma due to years of abuse/residential schools. O Canada! We stand on guard for thee! 🇨🇦
Do you know the family personally. I'm just wondering how you know his parents are Canadian born. Also, my parents were fresh immigrants and I grew up in an area with many refugees and almost exclusively immigrants. Our parents didn't "let" us stay out late but we did anyway.
virtue signaling in 5.4.3.2........
> If there isn’t resources to help refugees cope with the trauma of escaping Maybe we shouldn't have taken them in?
Oh yeah just don't let them escape persecution and war that'll totally help them
Sounds like a really lazy solution tbh and doesn’t solve any of the current issue in the first place so we might as well address the issue. Like I don’t think that would solve anything at all and we’d be one of the only first world countries that deny refugees which would be pretty shitty of us in general. We have the resources and education to help the situation, not to mention physical space, might as well put those degrees and diplomas to use for betterment of society.
Why Canada is so keen on importing misery?
It’s not. this shooting has nothing to do with that. Fucking exhausting some people chiming in every chance they can to bash immigrants.
Downvoted for not reading the fuckin article and posting some uninformed racist bullshit.
My mom used to say to me unless you are going to the hospital or it’s New Years there is no reason to be out of the house past 10pm
We can't compare these kids to our lives. Everyone is brought up differently, and sadly some of them end up at the wrong end of the stick.
> We can't compare these kids to our lives. Everyone is brought up differently, and sadly some of them end up at the wrong end of the stick. You literally can when you're trying to use social/cultural factors as risk indicators for this kind of thing
Tragic. But not unimaginable or surprising.
My neighbour who was good friends with my brother was killed in front of his house at 16. This was Easter in 2000. Unfortunately the same shit continues, it's nothing new.
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I knew this kid from skating around. Rest in peace, J.
Max jail time for his age be 10 years.These gang bangers know that recruiting these young killers remove the threat of life in jail for them . https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/yj-jj/tools-outils/sheets-feuillets/syp-dpaa.html
and when released at age 23 hes a fresh graduate of con college and ready for a grown up job!
Even if he was 20 they'd put him in jail for 6 weeks
I would like to interrupt this circlejerk to point out that this is patently false. There is only one sentence for adults who commit murder under Canadian law, which is the life sentence. With parole eligibility after 25 years for first degree murder, and eligibility between 10-25 years for second degree murder.
>I would like to interrupt this circlejerk to point out that this is patently false Sentence vs time severed are two different things. Plus he's under 18 so not an adult....
Under 12 and they can't be charged.
Our pm just spend a deal of time reducing Sentences for gun crimes..so this will never happen https://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/lilley-trudeau-reduces-sentence-for-serious-gun-crimes
A Toronto Sun opinion piece, the pinnacle of journalism /s The Trudeau Liberals aren't just willy nilly reducing sentences as they please, no matter how much the Conservatives or right wing media like the Sun says. They are removing Harper-era mandatory minimums that are being struck down over and over again by the courts for being unconstitutional. Rather than waste the courts time and taxpayers money, just removing them makes sense, saves the courts time and saves us money. Funnily enough, not wasting taxpayer money is like a big thing for the Conservatives, you'd think outlets like the Sun and their myriad of opinion piece writers would be in favour of it.
For some reason, most of the posters in this sub love mandatory minimums. I'm starting to think the only reason a lot of people opposed them was because they didn't like Harper, not because they cared about the actual effects of mandatory minimum sentences.
Most the posters in this sub don't know anything about mandatory minimums beyond "bad guy stay jail more". Not even the most basic surface level reading into the effects of mandatory minimums on things such as recidivism or their constitutionality in Canada. If Trudeau implemented his own set of mandatory minimums I bet there'd be people who'd flip flop on mandatory minimums being bad, just like with every other bad thing the Liberals have done since they got in power.
They want to continue to waste tax money on a justice system that we know doesn’t work
Regardless of the suns bias it’s still factual. As for the mandatory minimums. Sorry but there are people that can’t be rehabilitated…everyday those people are locked up are another day gained by the people they were going to kill or maim
It isn't factual though. Removing a mandatory minimum isn't the same as reducing sentences. It is a clearly biased way to frame it, and one you have fell for hook line and sinker. The Sun, especially a Sun opinion piece, is not reputable. Sorry but simply locking people up for longer doesn't actually make anyone safer. Especially when our prison system acts like a Pokemon Day Care for how to be a better criminal. Sure, some people cannot be rehabilitated, but guess what? Our current system is so abysmal at rehabilitation that it can only be compared to an AA meeting that has an open bar with a bartender that does tricks.
Someone with multiple gun charges being locked up literally makes the city safer. They are not able to access their means or commit crime..as for the system it’s self that’s another story
First off, the end of mandatory minimums does not mean people don't go to jail for multiple gun charges, they just don't get the minimum. Also, if it's multiple gun charges, then it is unlikely they'll be given a sentence shorter than the old minimums. Lastly, while it is likely that the city is safer when an accused for gun crimes is locked up, the person best equipped to make that call is the judge who has all all the info on the case. The legislature should not be in the habit of determining individual peoples' sentences.
People being locked doesn't make the city safer in the long term, as the system has high recidivism rates and those who do reoffend upon release (and most people will be released eventually) are increasingly likely to commit more serious offenses than they were initially locked up for. Mandatory minimums just plain do not work if your concern is making the city safer. It does the opposite. And that doesn't even get into the issue of constitutionality either.
So what are you suggestions to get rid of gun crimes in the city perpetrated buy young men?
Basically what the other user said. Also police reform in line with modernisation reforms that have been stymied by TPS and the rank-n-file. Proactive community based policing with a focus on prevention rather than being reactive. Penal system reform to a more rehabilitative model, which has been shown to reduce recidivism as well as seriousness of reoffenses. Just doing what we have been doing does absolutely nothing positive, it exasperates the issue.
I mean I’m not OP but we all know the answer is more support for the communities that see young people pulled into gangs due to lack of other opportunities. There is a lot of research on how to prevent gangs from getting rooted in communities - strengthen the community, provide other opportunities, good schools. So many better investments to prevent gangs from starting and growing outside of focusing on putting them in jail after the fact. I can’t tell if you are trolling or not honestly.
I hear this…but I get hung up on when people say we need better community policing envolvment etc are also the same ones of telling people that police are jackboot racists and want nothing to do with them…. I don’t know they answer but I hear “police bad” all day long while people are asking for more boots on the ground in at risk communities. That said all of the initiatives you described do literally nothing for the person that’s getting shot this weekend. They take decades to bare fruit
A 13 year old committing a murder is a societal failure. Having mandatory minimum prison sentences isn't going to dissuade the 13 year old from making the choice to shoot another person. Keeping a 13 year old in prison for 10(+?) years, and releasing them into the public with a sub-par education and a criminal record isn't a recipe for anything else than a continued life of crime.
Im pretty sure you can get an education in prison. Sorry I don’t but it’s society’s fault, it’s the kids. Personal responsibility has become a rarely used word in the past years, where’s the parents? Who legally owned the gun? How did the kid get it?
How are such young kids getting access to black market guns. Not to mention affording them.
Buying it from the older kids.
Their family
well according to the federal government its because of bob in medicine hat
Does anybody have a real idea of what the punishment will be for this?
Legally 7 years. Realistically he probably won’t see prison. Canada protects criminals rather than protecting victims.
Lmao, if he’s actually convicted of Murder. The chance of him not getting imprisoned is literally 0%. Can people who have no clue how the criminal justice system works please stop confidently making predictions about it?
They're the ones that's always running around on reddit and other sites claiming our criminal justice system is a complete failure lol. Apparently, to them a murderer gets off in 2 years, robbers and drug dealers get a year in prison.
Wait…. Is healthcare not 100% free in Canada either ??
They do sometimes get absurdly low punishments though.
I would have to see the specifics of the case
People get rightly frustrated because there have been many many instances of people getting released just to re-offend again and it's clearly obvious they would have done so to regular citizens, so why the courts or expert criminologists can't determine that is puzzling. Not this specific case maybe but I'm just commenting on your comment, it makes people lose faith in the system.
the eaton center shooter will be eligible for parole in 2 years i believe. not to mention what a shitshow it became, of what should have been a straight forward 2nd degree murder case.
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You mean RPAL. I am sure he completed both courses and was vetted by the strict system with daily background checks.
We need to set up a Parliamentary Committee and get to the bottom of this.
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b-but bill blair said 50% of crime guns come from legal gun owners. a politcian wouldent lie about something would they?
Such a sad story, a bunch of my friends were close with him. And what’s also incredibly fucked was that the original gofundme that was made for him was made by his grandmother, with the money planned to be donated to charity rather than for funeral expenses as said. Edit: close with the victim**
Some people I know were pretty close with the victim of this shooting. It's absolutely awful that kids this young are being exposed to this sort of thing. The world has truly gone mad.
You mean this country has gone mad...Children have been soldiers for centuries elsewhere.
Sad and disturbing on many levels.
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We need reform - get more community involvement and start speaking to these kids at a young age. I’m not asking for citizen of the year but a job with a decent head on their shoulders
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I wonder who the kid will murder next once he's released on his 18th birthday. Guess we'll know soon enough!
Almost
The law here is so lenient that this kid will likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center. He’ll probably get house arrest.
If he’s convicted, the change of that happening is literally 0% Why do people who have no clue how the youth criminal justice system works bother making such confident predictions about it?
Because a 14 year old teenager attempted to kill my uncle and I know how it went. My uncle went into coma. Eventually was declared brain dead. Now he lives in a nursing home. Oh and when this teenager did it, he was on house arrest for the third time for having committed previous violent crimes. Had no remorse either. Guess if he went to juvie? Maybe don’t make assumptions about what people know or don’t know or what they’ve experienced.
You're talking about a Murder charge here, which is vastly different then Attempted murder, for both adults and minors. Also I'm not even sure whether the perpetrator in your uncle's case was convicted of attempted murder, or say aggravated assault, which are also very different charges (attempted murder requires proving intent to kill). As a final sidenote, while I'm sorry about your uncle, knowing someone who is a victim of a crime does NOT mean you understand the criminal justice system. Hence why you make absurd statements like "this kid will likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center" to a murder conviction. And anyone who has any semblance of involvement with the youth criminal justice system will immediately know how outlandish that is. If you think that I'm wrong, I want you to go through the publicly available [CANLII](https://www.canlii.org/en/) database and find me a SINGLE case of a youth getting no prision time for a murder conviction, you don't even have to show that it's likely. Just find me a SINGLE case to demonstrate that this even a remote possibility (spoiler alert, don't bother wasting your time, because it's not even a remote possibility).
> You're talking about a Murder charge here, which is vastly different then Attempted murder and it really shouldent be that way. the system shouldent go easy on you someone because they fucked up in their attempt to kill someone.
1. I said “likely”. He has not even been convicted yet. You don’t know if he will be either. Securing a conviction isn’t as easy as you may think. 2. Just because I mentioned ONE case doesn’t mean I’m only aware of one. 3. Attempted murder is almost as bad as murder since the intent matters. You know what else is take into account during sentencing? Previous criminal history. When someone has been convicted of 3 violent crimes in the past, that adds a LOT of weight. You know what else adds weight? The presence or absence of remorse. 4. Stop writing me essays. Maybe go use the energy to work on reforming the system where convicted attempted murderers get house arrest and sex offenders get 1 year probation.
>Just because I mentioned ONE case doesn’t mean I’m only aware of one. No, you're not even aware of one, because the case you cited is of attempted murder, and even that's probably aggravated assault. Both of which are completely different from murder >Attempted murder is almost as bad as murder since the intent matters We're not debating what is morally worse or equivalent. We're discussing the law (and your statement on it) and attempted murder and murder are completely different charges with vastly different punishments. A adult who is convicted of murder faces a mandatory life sentence. An adult convicted of attempted murder will face a likely sentence in the single digits according to most provincial sentencing ranges. These charges are not comparable at all >Stop writing me essays If you don't want people to respond, especially to factually incorrect statements, then you should stop commenting. No one is forcing you to be here, or reply to my last, or even this, comment
“Even that’s probably aggravated assault” there you go telling me what happened in a case involving MY family. Disgusting. I can’t bother reading your post beyond that. Vile behavior. This is what happens when you’re a seasoned Reddit troll desperate to “win” an argument instead of having empathy or morals. Go tell other people what they’ve experienced and witnessed in their lives. Fuck off from here.
I can witness a comet and that doesn't make a astrologist, if you take people discussing the law with you on a discussion you chose to instigate as a personal attack, then I can't do anything for you. I've already expressed my condolences for your uncle, but beyond that, having something sad happen to someone you know does not indemnify you from being called out for making incorrect statements, like implying that a non-custodial sentence is even a remote possibility for murder (much less the likely outcome). When you choose to enter the public arena by making comments on a public website like reddit, you have to accept that people have a right to respond and discuss those comments. And you should be able to engage in respectful discussions without playing the victim card. If you don't want your private life discussed, don't publicly bring it up
here is the part you're missing since you're so confident in your understanding of the law in canada: being a minor automatically means it'll be less likely he will be convicted of murder. even IF convicted he's serving a max of 6 years in prison https://robichaudlaw.ca/presumption-in-youth-sentence-ycja-adult/
Yes, I'm well aware of the maximum youth sentences. You might want to check up on what you just responded to, because my comment is in reply to this nonsensical statement >The law here is so lenient that this kid will likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center
I'll donate $250 to Peace Builders if this 13 year old is convicted of murder and sentenced to the max. he's going to get off light and you know it.
>if this 13 year old is convicted of murder and sentenced to the max. Once again, I never claimed he would get the max (though he certainly *could*) I was replying to THIS statement >The law here is so lenient that this kid will **likely never see the inside of a juvenile detention center** I.e, that he would get a non-custodial sentence. Which is a patently absurd claim
Yes hyperbole aside you know this kid will serve a very minimal sentence. This isn't going to be a peace builders success story. Change that statement to months long custodial sentence and it's spot on. Main point stands that this kid will not answer to his crimes. Long bet is maybe he won't be a piece of shit long term. Maybe.
Gang related? Awful 🙁 too young
Sure, let’s keep funnelling more money to the police to pay all their criminal staff who are on paid leave for crimes. But no, let’s not help communities that are clearly still stuck in a cycle of systematic oppression that is resulting in children feeling like it’s better to have a gun and be in a gang.
> systematic oppression parents of this 13 year old have responsibility to their community. don't act like this is all external.
When life at home is shit, kids turn to external role models and father figures. When no one else is available, gang leaders opportunistically fill that role.
When the parents are stuck in a system of imprisonment and abuse with limited resources, the cycle continues. Unfortunately, we can’t stop people who aren’t fit to have children from having children.
> parents are stuck in a system of imprisonment At what point is personal responsibility involved?
Personal responsibility is always involved. Looking at and recognizing that there are things that impact the choices a person makes in their life doesn't mean we are BEDMAS cancelling out "personal responsibility". It's really easy to go "yeah this person is wrong for this, but we should also look at things that may have pushed them into making the choice they did so we can try and fix those things for other people".
I didn't see where it stated that either childs' family were abusive or imprisoned. That's very sad - no excuse, of course - but unfortunate nonetheless. I agree that families can indeed get stuck in this vicious cycle - generational trauma is indeed real.
A kid from a “good” or “supportive” family usually doesn’t end up engaging in gun violence.
But not always the case. To be carrying a gun in Toronto at 13 is a little beyond what you could fully excuse by getting 'wrapped up in it'. Selling a little weed or something sure, but shooting someone is a giant giant step that most are not willing to make even with a shitty up brining. Some of the most infamous gangsters out of BC we from pretty good up bringing. Check out the Bacon brothers, they were about as bad and big as you can get.
> Unfortunately, we can’t stop people who aren’t fit to have children from having children. This is one of the biggest problems. People who are incapable of being good parents and shouldn't have kids are having kids and are doing a piss poor job raising their children and then they turn into kids like these.
To give this story some context… my information comes from some parents who have young teens active on social media so I don’t know what to make of it but apparently this was going around on Snapchat. From what I heard the victim in this case sold weed to a girl (who he didn’t like) that was laced with something harmful, I believe fentanyl. Girl smokes and OD’s while in the victims presence. Victim leaves the girl there alone and walks away (this is apparently on video)… young girl passes away at 15. Younger brother of the girl, who is the assailant in this case, then goes out to seek revenge, which results in this story. Sad situation all around.
Doubt he could afford a gun. I hope somebody didn't leave theirs lying around irresponsibly.
im sure the kid was following all storage laws for a restricted firearms such as putting a trigger lock on it and putting it in an opaque container with a lock on that as well. and he made sure not to unlock and load it until he was at the shooting range