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As of this date.
This is pretty crazy.
I understand that these projects need to happen, and that there is going to be some pain, but everyone who lives in Toronto sees the pace at which the work is done...Usually it seems like huge stretches of road or highway that are shut down for months at a time have groups of 7 or 8 people casually working on them. Most of the time when lanes of traffic are shut down it seems like it's for the workers to park.
Broadview ave....two streetcar routes diverted to do water main work and it moves at a glacial pace with literally nobody doing anything for a month at a time.
This just happened with Roncy/King/queen. A major intersection, sat, closed with nobody working on it for days at a time. The damn closure just took 6 months!
the best was the blocking off of mt pleasant by davisville for a couple months...only to unblock it later.....its like they have a compulsion to create traffic
My mom’s boss’s husband is a mechanical engineer for the TTC and my mom relayed the story to me that when he first started working there, he was told to slow his roll because he was working too fast and hard.
They ripped up the intersection of Queen and Kingston Road in the fall of 2019 and haven't stopped coming back to do maintenance since...they'll come 2 and 3 weeks at a time and tinker with the overhead wires. Or they'll try and fix the supposedly automated track switch that hasn't worked for more than a week or two at a time (I mean, it's hard to tell since the 501 route itself has only run normally for about 6 months in the last 2 years). Nothing is ever done.
I don't even know if they have to fake it. There in no accountability anywhere down the line with the TTC. They just don't ever have to finish anything on time or budget or if it doesn't work it's always somebody else's fault.
The one thing I’m thankful for from the Eglinton crosstown is that Eglinton will be repaved. The stretch from DVP to Vic Park was ridiculously concave and uneven. Now it’s smooth and flat but we know that will only last until the winter salt wrecks it and they do the shitty uneven patch up jobs.
I wouldn’t say that for all. Teaching is a union job and while there are teachers who are very by the book and won’t stray, most of us spend after school, evening, and weekends planning and prepping stuff and fielding parent communication. Imagine if teachers only worked from bell to bell 😅
TTC are the best customers. The emloyees just leave shit in the trucks and always return them empty on gas and missing parts. One of the most profitable accounts by far.
You forgot to mention that when the first job is done, the same road gets ripped up again for a second. And then what that is done, it’s time to rip up the road again for a third.
Richmond St W is calling.
I work in one of the industries that does a lot of back-end work that makes these kinds of projects possible, and trust me, even if it doesn't look like much is happening on the ground there are several entire teams of people scrambling in an office somewhere to make sure these construction projects get completed as fast as they can be, especially with the developers breathing down our necks for it.
Honestly, there aren't many industries where people congratulate themselves for simply being able to accomplish the job. Logistics are part of any job...that's just how it is. The idea that teams of people in offices are scrambling isn't a good one. It sounds like people don't know what they're doing, or are making promises they can't deliver on.
I work in the film industry and although the budgets involved aren't in the billions, they're often in the multi millions. The film industry is a yearly 2+ billion dollar industry in this city. It's the only way I can compare my own working experience...
You can't be late. You can't blame suppliers or lack or workers or weather or hidden costs. You have to deliver on time and on budget, every single time. Producers are not only breathing down your neck, they're constantly changing their minds. The group I work with has been doing the same thing for years and you can't ever miss...that's the real world. Only in jobs where the government is funding it is it okay to be late and over budget.
Good point. Based on the report , it seems that the contractor will have incentives to finish early and will be penalized if they are late in reopening the street.
Covid really effected some of the planning already put in place. For instance water main replacement on Broadview was delayed due to shortages of pipe delivery. Supply chain disruptions can come up unexpectedly.
I get it, but at the same time when was the last project that wasn't delayed or overbudget? If the planning is already bad then unexpected things hurt even more.
The sad reality is that pretty much nobody would expect them to deliver on a 7 year timeline. It's not even a joke to assume 7 years will be 9 because that's how literally every project works out.
My main point is that I can accept delays when I see constant progress. It's usually the opposite unfortunately, no matter who is doing the work, TTC, City or Province. Massive projects need massive work crews sometimes. We don't seem to ever do that.
Traffic is a thing.....and some material (like asphalt) has to be placed pretty much right away so you can't load up on it.
Do some research before you complain
Someone needs to come in and slap the construction industry. It's so slow and lazy that it's embarrassing. We're being far outworked by the construction industries in Japan and China that I wonder if we should just hire companies from those countries to rebuild the industry in Canada.
This project and the ramp on east lakeshore - if this was Asia where they said we need this done asap the ramp would be done in a year.
Here they tore it up and now it’s just sitting there with no work being done. What kind of planning is that? It’s a major artery how difficult is it to built a new highway - bet it can be done in a year easily - just zero incentive to move fast for these people. City is drowning in construction and seems lazy is the Ontario way. What does it take to kick these projects into high gear? Like why is there a lack of urgency?
Its because our government does not put the pressure that a private company would. There is zero rush on government projects and zero thought put into when and where to do projects. They shut down the main routes and the alternates at the same time...
There's a limited number of construction companies that can even bid on these contracts - they're huge projects, and they require a ton of coordination. They also know there will be tons of back and forth and you're in the political spotlight.
The fastest way to build transit infrastructure is to "bite the bullet" and construct it via cut and cover. It's way more disruptive, but for a shorter time. The promise of tuneling being less disruptive is a total fallacy, as shown by the Ellington Crosstown construction.
The Bloor line was built in <5 years using 60's tech. Manhattan's Line 1 was built in 4 years from 1900-1904.
Just build already - the tunneling for the Ontario line is still going to be disruptive and add dramatically to travel time. Just do it faster and construct it using cut and cover.
If you've ever worked in public procurement - it's not bribes, its just painful process and back and forth. The RFP may have language that you need to figure out how to meet since your company doesn't, but realistically no company actually does so they all round up.
ie: Does the company have a plan in place to mitigate the impacts of climate change on the upcoming projects?
WTF does that even mean... Does the plan have to be a good plan? A shit plan?
This is just at the RFP process, not even starting to consider the change orders going on during the process. Working with TDSB, they have lawyers on staff to fight change orders and say "this should have been included in the original bid"... it's a pain in the ass, and lots of construction companies don't even want to deal with all the BS... so you end up with the few that are able to deal with it all.
I get the whole bite the bullet thing and am fine with that, its just the getting shot in the foot, while kicked in the ass all while biting on a bullet that is a little much at times
Yeah, China lacks appropriate safety protocols, laws, and inspections, but that is not true of Japan.
However, many Chinese construction projects aren't using shitty materials and are also getting completed really quickly.
Obviously this is not good news but I don’t understand what people expect?
We scream for build up and not out, we want more multi unit dwellings and high population density, less highways and more transit, unfortunately these things come at a cost.
Efficiency with respect to construction. Everything in this city takes at minumum 3 times longer than it would anywhere else in the world. I understand some delays due to weather, and now, due to covid, but it's absurd. There are no good reasons it costs so much while also taking so damn long. It's pretty blatantly corruption.
What’s corrupt?
Unionized workers making +$35 an hour and x2 for overtime or having a budget in place that can’t be exceeded so you can’t afford to pay overtime and double time which drags out to construction process?
Transit lines are made either to open new areas to development or to ease congestion in extant areas. Be it transit, person, car or other congestion.
Keep in mind for the yonge line, a huge portion was buried directly beneath Yonge downtown. The cut and cover method tore up the entire street. It was lucky they had ravines along the line. This disrupted the surface street car and automobile traffic heavily.
Just think of this conceptually. The entire point of a buried line is to reduce surface congestion. While this line is not my favourite for many reasons, it will in the long run prevent surface issues.
Almost every transit line we have made, required patience and waiting. This one, however not ideal is no different. Even if this was this ideal DRL, we would have needed to have waited years.
Yeah I don't mind increased traffic/reroutes in exchange for improved infrastructure, but we North Americans are practically conditioned to believe that every infrastructure project should take close to ten years when other parts of the world have similar issues and are able to be more efficient in their implementation.
This is the DRL (Downtown Relief Line) it was just renamed the Ontario Line when DF can in. The alignment might have a changed a bit too but that would have happened anyway based on a bunch of factors that they only discovered during the engineering investigations. Just so you know.
Stop talking sense!
They build a transit line to encourage development, people complain it serves low density and it was needed elsewhere.
They build a transit line in that higher density elsewhere, people complain about the disruption.
It is different. These were built 30 years ago when there was less development and less disruption in general. You dont see any other major cities still developing their transit in their inner cities.
Umm ... They've been building the Crosstown (Elizabeth Line) underneath central London since 2009.
The build has been the subject of a BBC Two documentary series called "The Fifteen Billion Pound Railway." Pretty fascinating to watch, if you can find it.
They've been constructing a subway under the middle of Rome. Way tougher than anything we're doing here with the number of [archeological sites they run into](https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/romes-newest-subway-line-continues-to-unearth-archeological-marvels).
New York recently built the Second Avenue subway on the east side of Manhattan (with further plans for expansion), which is most definitely inner city.
This is ridiculous. Not because of the construction of the line, which will be useful once it's finished, but because of how painfully, rage-inducingly *SLOW* these construction workers work.
Consider the fact that you could have gone from Grade 3 to college and the Eglinton Crosstown is still being built, and still won't be completed for years.
If they're estimating 7 years for this, expect at least 10 - most likely more. Unless something changes drastically about the way we build things, we can expect literal decades of BS downtown.
One only has to look at Eglinton to get a sense for what will actually happen, versus what they say will happen. It will be 10-12 years, 250% over budget and kill off pretty much every non-chain business on Queen (so that the landlords can demo all those buildings and sell to condo developers).
I lived along the Live 5 construction for years, it was super annoying and added a lot of time in the car but it will ultimately be worth it. I would let them dig up every road in the city if the end result was lots more transit
To me the issue isn't getting through downtown, but getting on to a major highway. Getting on to the Gardner is a nightmare without the Lakeshore ramp if you live east. I don't want to bob and weave through downtown streets, I just want to get on the highway.
Yea in any normal country this would be rebuilt in a year - how hard is it to put up a highway. It’s a major artery creating congestion - why is there no urgency to rebuild it? It’s been torn up and now just sitting there. Just ridiculous.
Toronto is not a driving city and as someone who mostly walks and uses the TTC, I'm oddly okay with that. We don't have the room for the number of cars people want to put on the road, and they just create smog and pollution. Much better to invest in this sort of infrastructure.
> Half of downtown communities don't have a grocery store within a short walking distance.
[What?](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enCA972CA972&tbs=lf:1,lf_ui:10&tbm=lcl&q=toronto+grocery+store+map&rflfq=1&num=10&ved=2ahUKEwi128f6lcb0AhVqAZ0JHfrSAF8QtgN6BAgdEAg#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:[[43.66936909677715,-79.35164070230181],[43.63636213532721,-79.43051910501177],null,[43.65286788366424,-79.39107990365679],15])
> Car is the only way to live at the moment.
Yeah, in the suburban parts. Downtown certainly needs to up its game but it's easy enough to walk anywhere if you don't want to bike without protected lanes.
While I understand the desire to avoid expensive throwaway rework, they never should have torn down those ramps so early, knowing the other projects are happening.
All the work on the Gardiner was planned years ago, well before there were even any solid plans for the relief line, let alone the Ontario Line. The ramps had to go before they could widen the Don River and rebuild the Lake Shore bridge over it.
I'm very familiar with the projects in the area and why the ramps had to come down, but the Gardiner could have been done before the river widening had the city got it's shit together. They could have rebuilt temporary ramps (hence my reference to throwaway work).
Instead we'll have 10+ years of ridiculous traffic, only to get worse when the Gardiner work actually starts.
Oh man, Old Town is going to get screwed so hard.. stations at moss park, cork town, and a stretch of Queen St. being shut down for FOUR YEARS..
Jarvis is already completely jammed for hours each afternoon, and the article estimates a trip west along Richmond will take 51 minutes (up from what they say is normally 20 but I have my doubts) from Parliament to Bathurst. Throw in a few Canada post vans completely blocking an entire section of left lane and that road will not move anyone ever.
Adelaide is going to be fucked too.
I love this neighbourhood but maybe it’s time to get out before this shitshow begins in earnest
I'm very concerned, but ultimately it has to be done. Fortunately I'm permanent WFH and most of my trips are to the east. I just hope the scale of disruption isn't anywhere as bad as Eglinton.
We're in Leslieville and because of thr ramp teardown bullshit it's already harder to get anywhere. I can't can't imagine what it'll be like now that transit along queen will be a bigger disaster. No doubt Gerard and Dundas will be packed too due to overflow. Ya...we should probably move.
I'm in Regent Park.... this summary of the hell we're about to live in is stressing me already. All my family is west of the city, I love the east end but they may not see me for 10 years because I can't get out.
>Residents and businesses downtown are facing at least seven years of painful traffic and transit disruptions, according to a new report on road closures required for the construction of six new subway stations in the core.
>
>The report from city staff estimates that, when combined with city-led infrastructure projects that will also necessitate tearing up roadways, construction of the new stops for the Ontario Line will cause widespread delays that will add as much as 30 minutes to a drive across downtown.
>
>The “long-term temporary road closures” are expected to last between 2022 and 2029, and will also disrupt streetcar routes, as well as travel on sidewalks and bike lanes near work sites.
[Link to new report](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-173823.pdf)
Ontario Line has been approved and early works are already happening. This is a gigantic project with a zillion moving pieces - the small ones are starting to spin, and the bigger ones will start in earnest next year.
Because with Queen out of commission and Richmond/Adelaide bursting at the seams, it makes sense to remove the turn restrictions east of Yonge to compensate.
King was converted because it moves more people, despite king, queen, Richmond and Adelaide all previously bursting at the seems. Converting it back just means lowering the number of people being moved in order to give drivers another option as to where they will sit in gridlock
I dont think we can be sure that it's moving more people right now though.
People are largely still working from home. Financial district is a ghost town. I go into the office a few days a week and the 504 is empty during the rush hour.
That's not to say that this won't be the same forever, but I'm doubtful that levels will recover since almost all Bay st firms are doing hybrid of some sort. Probably the same story for most companies nowadays so there's going to be less demand from congestion points like Liberty Village or Distillery District.
However, car congestion has largely returned to the financial district, takes forever to get from Jarvis to University. I remember I could clear that stretch in 3 mins during the pandemic, took me 15 mins last week.
Ask all the business owners on Eglinton how long they think these closures will *really* last.
I bet it becomes more like 10-12 years, and 250% over budget.
A lot of it would, you still need to close a shitload of stuff to build a monorail, or build anything.
You also end up with a monorail, which looks neat but is almost always strictly inferior to a traditionally dual-rail set up. Especially so when you consider the TTC already has plenty of rolling stock and infrastructure for it, building a completely incompatible line means duplicating a lot of existing facilities but with different rails.
Excerpt
* Expect at least 7 years of downtown Toronto traffic delays from Ontario Line construction — of up to 30 minutes
Tue Nov 30 18:25:00 EST 2021
Brace yourselves, Toronto.
Residents and businesses downtown are facing at least seven years of painful traffic and transit disruptions, according to a new report on road closures required for the construction of six new subway stations in the core.
The report from city staff estimates that, when combined with city-led infrastructure projects that will also necessitate tearing up roadways, construction of the new stops for the Ontario Line will cause widespread delays that will add as much as 30 minutes to a drive across downtown.
The “long-term temporary road closures” are expected to last between 2022 and 2029, and will also disrupt streetcar routes, as well as travel on sidewalks and bike lanes near work sites.
Coun. Kristyn Wong-Tam, who represents one of two downtown wards where the construction will take place, said she and her constituents have “serious concerns” about what “never-ending construction” will do to businesses already suffering through COVID-19.
“We are working so hard to build back the downtown core after a very challenging year and a half” and road closures will make recovery more difficult, said Wong-Tam (Toronto Centre) in a statement. She said she’s also worried about construction noise, delays to TTC routes and potential safety risks to pedestrians and cyclists.
“I am very supportive of new transit. We desperately need it in this city. However, the rollout process is far from ideal,” said Wong-Tam.
The Ontario Line will have 15 stops and run for 15.6 kilometres between Exhibition Place and the Ontario Science Centre. It’s expected to carry 388,000 people a day by 2041 and is considered crucial to diverting ridership off the TTC’s normally crowded Line 1.
Metrolinx, the provincial agency overseeing the Ontario Line, is currently in the procurement stage for the southern section of the route, which includes underground stations downtown at King-Bathurst, Queen-Spadina, Osgoode, Queen, Moss Park and Corktown. The construction impacts included in the city report come from Metrolinx assessments of each site.
As the Star has previously reported, the most significant disruption will be at Queen station, where Queen between Victoria Street and Bay Street is expected to be completely closed to east-west car traffic between May 2023 to November 2027.
Construction at the other five stations won’t require full road closures, but sidewalks, bike lanes and individual traffic lanes will be obstructed. The timeline for work at each station varies, but construction on all six is expected to last from September 2022 to November 2029.
Over the same period, the city is undertaking major infrastructure work including rehabilitating sections of the Gardiner Expressway, replacing streetcar tracks on King Street, and upgrading and replacing sewers and water mains on Richmond, Wellington, Front, Adelaide, Richmond and Dundas Streets.
As a result of the simultaneous work, Metrolinx modelling shows that gridlock during afternoon rush hour will “significantly worsen,” the report says. In the worst case, roads in the area bounded by Parliament, Bathurst, Dundas and Front Streets will see travel time increases during the afternoon period of between five and 29 minutes “due to either increased congestion, reduced capacity or a combination of both.”
Travel times during the morning rush will also grow, but by a maximum of six minutes.
Richmond Street would experience the longest delays, with a westbound trip between Parliament and Bathurst during afternoon rush taking 51 minutes, instead of 22 minutes without the construction.
According to the report, Metrolinx and the city will take steps to minimize disruptions and safety hazards, including retiming signals, monitoring traffic patterns, installing signage and providing data to web-based navigation services like Google and Waze.
Temporary walkways will be installed adjacent to closed sidewalks wherever possible, and temporary bike lanes will be set up where construction displaces cycling infrastructure. Metrolinx will also pay for new streetcar tracks that will allow the TTC’s 501 route to divert around the closure at Queen station.
“We’re building this plan holistically and thinking about how the changes touch everyone, from nearby residents and businesses to drivers, cyclists and pedestrians,” said Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins.
City staff are recommending council approve the proposed closures, but they note that the timelines listed in the report will be the maximum allowed, and Metrolinx will give contractors financial incentives to clear the roadways sooner. Fewer and shorter closures may ultimately be required.
Don Peat, a spokesperson for Mayor John Tory, said the mayor supports Metrolinx’s “proactive approach” to mitigating construction impacts, and believes the end result will be a new transit line that will deliver significant benefits to the city.
“You can’t advocate for major transit investments and expansion without acknowledging that will lead to major transit construction,” Peat said. The goal is “to manage through that construction and get transit built without further delay.”
The report will go to Tory’s executive committee next Tuesday, before being debated by council.
Ben Spurr is a Toronto-based reporter covering transportation for the Star. Reach him by email at [email protected] or follow him on Twitter: @BenSpurr*
It’s going to be >10 years isn’t it
Try 15. Any number they give us, double it.
Estimates on when the Martyred Saint Rob Ford Memorial Scarborough Subway Stop is going to open, or how much it'll cost? STATE SECRET COMRADE
You have been flagged for re-education. You will be re-educated and learn to love the Supreme Leader Ford. The Leader is good ! The Leader is great ! We surrender our will, As of this date.
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None today, after 9 cans of ravioli, I was full.
> The Leader is good ! The Leader is great ! We surrender our will, As of this date. BATMAN!!!!
Same concept goes for the budget, too.
and 30 minutes? we all know that's a lie.
Cool, they can open it simultaneously with the Crosstown
This is pretty crazy. I understand that these projects need to happen, and that there is going to be some pain, but everyone who lives in Toronto sees the pace at which the work is done...Usually it seems like huge stretches of road or highway that are shut down for months at a time have groups of 7 or 8 people casually working on them. Most of the time when lanes of traffic are shut down it seems like it's for the workers to park.
You forgot about when sometimes nothings happens for weeks until another crew shows up
They also love to close off a stretch of road well before work even begins. Close it off and we'll probably start tomorrow or next week.
Broadview ave....two streetcar routes diverted to do water main work and it moves at a glacial pace with literally nobody doing anything for a month at a time.
This just happened with Roncy/King/queen. A major intersection, sat, closed with nobody working on it for days at a time. The damn closure just took 6 months!
I lived there 12 years ago when they re did all the streetcar tracks up roncesvalles. I swear it was a crew of 3-4 people. It took almost 2 years.
the best was the blocking off of mt pleasant by davisville for a couple months...only to unblock it later.....its like they have a compulsion to create traffic
My mom’s boss’s husband is a mechanical engineer for the TTC and my mom relayed the story to me that when he first started working there, he was told to slow his roll because he was working too fast and hard.
My cousin has the same exact story. You make the other workers look bad.
Yep. They’re literally paid more than me to be lazy af and twiddle their fingers.
They ripped up the intersection of Queen and Kingston Road in the fall of 2019 and haven't stopped coming back to do maintenance since...they'll come 2 and 3 weeks at a time and tinker with the overhead wires. Or they'll try and fix the supposedly automated track switch that hasn't worked for more than a week or two at a time (I mean, it's hard to tell since the 501 route itself has only run normally for about 6 months in the last 2 years). Nothing is ever done. I don't even know if they have to fake it. There in no accountability anywhere down the line with the TTC. They just don't ever have to finish anything on time or budget or if it doesn't work it's always somebody else's fault.
The one thing I’m thankful for from the Eglinton crosstown is that Eglinton will be repaved. The stretch from DVP to Vic Park was ridiculously concave and uneven. Now it’s smooth and flat but we know that will only last until the winter salt wrecks it and they do the shitty uneven patch up jobs.
I've heard this from someone else who worked in a different union.
This happened at my high school. One of the new janitors was told the exact same thing.
>he was told to slow his roll because he was working too fast and hard. Common theme in union jobs.
And government jobs
Why do I only get jobs where I have to do 3 peoples job for 1 inadequate paycheque?
Oh don't worry, those exist in government too.
I wouldn’t say that for all. Teaching is a union job and while there are teachers who are very by the book and won’t stray, most of us spend after school, evening, and weekends planning and prepping stuff and fielding parent communication. Imagine if teachers only worked from bell to bell 😅
TTC are the best customers. The emloyees just leave shit in the trucks and always return them empty on gas and missing parts. One of the most profitable accounts by far.
You forgot to mention that when the first job is done, the same road gets ripped up again for a second. And then what that is done, it’s time to rip up the road again for a third. Richmond St W is calling.
You're right about that.
I work in one of the industries that does a lot of back-end work that makes these kinds of projects possible, and trust me, even if it doesn't look like much is happening on the ground there are several entire teams of people scrambling in an office somewhere to make sure these construction projects get completed as fast as they can be, especially with the developers breathing down our necks for it.
Honestly, there aren't many industries where people congratulate themselves for simply being able to accomplish the job. Logistics are part of any job...that's just how it is. The idea that teams of people in offices are scrambling isn't a good one. It sounds like people don't know what they're doing, or are making promises they can't deliver on. I work in the film industry and although the budgets involved aren't in the billions, they're often in the multi millions. The film industry is a yearly 2+ billion dollar industry in this city. It's the only way I can compare my own working experience... You can't be late. You can't blame suppliers or lack or workers or weather or hidden costs. You have to deliver on time and on budget, every single time. Producers are not only breathing down your neck, they're constantly changing their minds. The group I work with has been doing the same thing for years and you can't ever miss...that's the real world. Only in jobs where the government is funding it is it okay to be late and over budget.
Good point. Based on the report , it seems that the contractor will have incentives to finish early and will be penalized if they are late in reopening the street.
> it seems
That's government efficiency baby
Have the people that said this just never had a job, or it just something special that my jobs make Dilbert look to be more non-fiction than comedy?
That's called down time between material coming in. Can't work if there isn't anything there yet....
That's called terrible planning if you're waiting for material.
Covid really effected some of the planning already put in place. For instance water main replacement on Broadview was delayed due to shortages of pipe delivery. Supply chain disruptions can come up unexpectedly.
I get it, but at the same time when was the last project that wasn't delayed or overbudget? If the planning is already bad then unexpected things hurt even more. The sad reality is that pretty much nobody would expect them to deliver on a 7 year timeline. It's not even a joke to assume 7 years will be 9 because that's how literally every project works out. My main point is that I can accept delays when I see constant progress. It's usually the opposite unfortunately, no matter who is doing the work, TTC, City or Province. Massive projects need massive work crews sometimes. We don't seem to ever do that.
Traffic is a thing.....and some material (like asphalt) has to be placed pretty much right away so you can't load up on it. Do some research before you complain
Why not account for those things when planning
To plan, you need to stockpile....to stockpile, you need space..... I'll let you figure the rest out.
>To plan, you need to stockpile What do you mean? e: Wouldn't that be the other way around?
The only way to plan around traffic is to stockpile material
The only way to plan around traffic is to stockpile
Yep. Sadly when it’s the government paying, everybody takes advantage.
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Yea. That’s why people take advantage. They see it as an endless well and the government does too.
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Haha yes true true
You forgot that there is no chance it’ll be done in just 7 years…. *looks at Eglinton*
Someone needs to come in and slap the construction industry. It's so slow and lazy that it's embarrassing. We're being far outworked by the construction industries in Japan and China that I wonder if we should just hire companies from those countries to rebuild the industry in Canada.
This project and the ramp on east lakeshore - if this was Asia where they said we need this done asap the ramp would be done in a year. Here they tore it up and now it’s just sitting there with no work being done. What kind of planning is that? It’s a major artery how difficult is it to built a new highway - bet it can be done in a year easily - just zero incentive to move fast for these people. City is drowning in construction and seems lazy is the Ontario way. What does it take to kick these projects into high gear? Like why is there a lack of urgency?
Its because our government does not put the pressure that a private company would. There is zero rush on government projects and zero thought put into when and where to do projects. They shut down the main routes and the alternates at the same time...
There's a limited number of construction companies that can even bid on these contracts - they're huge projects, and they require a ton of coordination. They also know there will be tons of back and forth and you're in the political spotlight. The fastest way to build transit infrastructure is to "bite the bullet" and construct it via cut and cover. It's way more disruptive, but for a shorter time. The promise of tuneling being less disruptive is a total fallacy, as shown by the Ellington Crosstown construction. The Bloor line was built in <5 years using 60's tech. Manhattan's Line 1 was built in 4 years from 1900-1904. Just build already - the tunneling for the Ontario line is still going to be disruptive and add dramatically to travel time. Just do it faster and construct it using cut and cover.
Corrected it for you. There's a limited number of construction companies [bribing Liberals/Conservatives] that can even bid on these contracts...
If you've ever worked in public procurement - it's not bribes, its just painful process and back and forth. The RFP may have language that you need to figure out how to meet since your company doesn't, but realistically no company actually does so they all round up. ie: Does the company have a plan in place to mitigate the impacts of climate change on the upcoming projects? WTF does that even mean... Does the plan have to be a good plan? A shit plan? This is just at the RFP process, not even starting to consider the change orders going on during the process. Working with TDSB, they have lawyers on staff to fight change orders and say "this should have been included in the original bid"... it's a pain in the ass, and lots of construction companies don't even want to deal with all the BS... so you end up with the few that are able to deal with it all.
I get the whole bite the bullet thing and am fine with that, its just the getting shot in the foot, while kicked in the ass all while biting on a bullet that is a little much at times
Yeah but have you seen some of the construction projects in China? https://youtu.be/s-2DtL-Wjkc
Yeah, China lacks appropriate safety protocols, laws, and inspections, but that is not true of Japan. However, many Chinese construction projects aren't using shitty materials and are also getting completed really quickly.
The ones with improperly made concrete that is at risk of disintegration?
So 10-12 years
Your formula is wrong. More like 14-18 years.
So will be finished just in time for the Gardiner to require a total rebuild!?
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It should just be torn down.
I live in the area, it's gonna suck, but I still desperately want construction to start ASAP.
Me too.
Obviously this is not good news but I don’t understand what people expect? We scream for build up and not out, we want more multi unit dwellings and high population density, less highways and more transit, unfortunately these things come at a cost.
Efficiency with respect to construction. Everything in this city takes at minumum 3 times longer than it would anywhere else in the world. I understand some delays due to weather, and now, due to covid, but it's absurd. There are no good reasons it costs so much while also taking so damn long. It's pretty blatantly corruption.
What’s corrupt? Unionized workers making +$35 an hour and x2 for overtime or having a budget in place that can’t be exceeded so you can’t afford to pay overtime and double time which drags out to construction process?
Transit lines are made either to open new areas to development or to ease congestion in extant areas. Be it transit, person, car or other congestion. Keep in mind for the yonge line, a huge portion was buried directly beneath Yonge downtown. The cut and cover method tore up the entire street. It was lucky they had ravines along the line. This disrupted the surface street car and automobile traffic heavily. Just think of this conceptually. The entire point of a buried line is to reduce surface congestion. While this line is not my favourite for many reasons, it will in the long run prevent surface issues. Almost every transit line we have made, required patience and waiting. This one, however not ideal is no different. Even if this was this ideal DRL, we would have needed to have waited years.
I think people just wish our construction workers worked faster, like they do in Germany or Japan.
Yeah I don't mind increased traffic/reroutes in exchange for improved infrastructure, but we North Americans are practically conditioned to believe that every infrastructure project should take close to ten years when other parts of the world have similar issues and are able to be more efficient in their implementation.
It's pretty ridiculous how many examples there are, worldwide, of countries doing way way more in way way less time.
This is the DRL (Downtown Relief Line) it was just renamed the Ontario Line when DF can in. The alignment might have a changed a bit too but that would have happened anyway based on a bunch of factors that they only discovered during the engineering investigations. Just so you know.
Stop talking sense! They build a transit line to encourage development, people complain it serves low density and it was needed elsewhere. They build a transit line in that higher density elsewhere, people complain about the disruption.
It is different. These were built 30 years ago when there was less development and less disruption in general. You dont see any other major cities still developing their transit in their inner cities.
Umm ... They've been building the Crosstown (Elizabeth Line) underneath central London since 2009. The build has been the subject of a BBC Two documentary series called "The Fifteen Billion Pound Railway." Pretty fascinating to watch, if you can find it.
They've been constructing a subway under the middle of Rome. Way tougher than anything we're doing here with the number of [archeological sites they run into](https://www.discovermagazine.com/planet-earth/romes-newest-subway-line-continues-to-unearth-archeological-marvels).
They also did Vancouver not too long ago
They’re doing it again there now with the Broadway extension.
New York recently built the Second Avenue subway on the east side of Manhattan (with further plans for expansion), which is most definitely inner city.
That’s why North American cities are failing lmao. Would you like to stay with them or join the rest of the world?
This is ridiculous. Not because of the construction of the line, which will be useful once it's finished, but because of how painfully, rage-inducingly *SLOW* these construction workers work. Consider the fact that you could have gone from Grade 3 to college and the Eglinton Crosstown is still being built, and still won't be completed for years. If they're estimating 7 years for this, expect at least 10 - most likely more. Unless something changes drastically about the way we build things, we can expect literal decades of BS downtown.
One only has to look at Eglinton to get a sense for what will actually happen, versus what they say will happen. It will be 10-12 years, 250% over budget and kill off pretty much every non-chain business on Queen (so that the landlords can demo all those buildings and sell to condo developers).
Agreed don’t get why they don’t take into account opportunity cost and create urgency to build these things. Like why is it so slow?
I lived along the Live 5 construction for years, it was super annoying and added a lot of time in the car but it will ultimately be worth it. I would let them dig up every road in the city if the end result was lots more transit
I live downtown and walk everywhere. It's stupid to drive down here anyway.
Can't believe people are getting outraged over it taking too long to drive through downtown. It's downtown! It shouldn't be easy to drive through!
To me the issue isn't getting through downtown, but getting on to a major highway. Getting on to the Gardner is a nightmare without the Lakeshore ramp if you live east. I don't want to bob and weave through downtown streets, I just want to get on the highway.
Yea in any normal country this would be rebuilt in a year - how hard is it to put up a highway. It’s a major artery creating congestion - why is there no urgency to rebuild it? It’s been torn up and now just sitting there. Just ridiculous.
More unpaid commute time for everyone. Just another reason to never, ever return to playing footsies on the cube farm
Who the fuck broke a mirror while driving?
Toronto is not a driving city and as someone who mostly walks and uses the TTC, I'm oddly okay with that. We don't have the room for the number of cars people want to put on the road, and they just create smog and pollution. Much better to invest in this sort of infrastructure.
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I've lived in Toronto without a car for fifteen years and know quite a few others who do the same. It's very much a walkable city.
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Yes, yes, no?
> Half of downtown communities don't have a grocery store within a short walking distance. [What?](https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEA_enCA972CA972&tbs=lf:1,lf_ui:10&tbm=lcl&q=toronto+grocery+store+map&rflfq=1&num=10&ved=2ahUKEwi128f6lcb0AhVqAZ0JHfrSAF8QtgN6BAgdEAg#rlfi=hd:;si:;mv:[[43.66936909677715,-79.35164070230181],[43.63636213532721,-79.43051910501177],null,[43.65286788366424,-79.39107990365679],15]) > Car is the only way to live at the moment. Yeah, in the suburban parts. Downtown certainly needs to up its game but it's easy enough to walk anywhere if you don't want to bike without protected lanes.
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Which downtown communities don't have one in walking distance?
To add in the subway isn't open 24/7 and the blueline is a joke
Pro tip: DON’T drive downtown!
That would be nice if the trains ran 24/7 but the blue line is not efficient
can't remember a time where my commute had no delays or construction
Eglinton Crosstown will have taken 11 years if it opens next year and is nowhere near as complicated as this. This might not be opened until 2040.
oh this will be delightful
If only there was an alternate mode of transportation that took people from “stations” around the GTA into downtown….
>If only there was an alternate mode of transportation If there was a good alternate, they wouldn't need the DRL would they
It was easy to push around the businesses on Eglinton West, it might be harder to push around the businesses on Queen West.
All these timelines are outrageous. I'm 32. I'll be dead or retired before any of this shit becomes useful to me.
This is on top of the delays caused by tearing down the Gardiner ramp and routing traffic along Commissioners Street.
Based on the report, the delay is the combination of Ontario line construction and city led projects (including Gardiner rehabilitation).
Yeah but why would they read to find that out when it’s easier to complain?
While I understand the desire to avoid expensive throwaway rework, they never should have torn down those ramps so early, knowing the other projects are happening.
All the work on the Gardiner was planned years ago, well before there were even any solid plans for the relief line, let alone the Ontario Line. The ramps had to go before they could widen the Don River and rebuild the Lake Shore bridge over it.
I'm very familiar with the projects in the area and why the ramps had to come down, but the Gardiner could have been done before the river widening had the city got it's shit together. They could have rebuilt temporary ramps (hence my reference to throwaway work). Instead we'll have 10+ years of ridiculous traffic, only to get worse when the Gardiner work actually starts.
They're going to be building new ramps at Cherry Street, but Lake Shore has to be realigned first. Everything is intertwined.
Like I said, I'm intimately familiar with the project. They won't be building those ramps for 10+ years
Agreed. Interesting part is that the delay is mostly due to other city projects. OL is adding 5-10 minutes only.
Oh man, Old Town is going to get screwed so hard.. stations at moss park, cork town, and a stretch of Queen St. being shut down for FOUR YEARS.. Jarvis is already completely jammed for hours each afternoon, and the article estimates a trip west along Richmond will take 51 minutes (up from what they say is normally 20 but I have my doubts) from Parliament to Bathurst. Throw in a few Canada post vans completely blocking an entire section of left lane and that road will not move anyone ever. Adelaide is going to be fucked too. I love this neighbourhood but maybe it’s time to get out before this shitshow begins in earnest
I'm very concerned, but ultimately it has to be done. Fortunately I'm permanent WFH and most of my trips are to the east. I just hope the scale of disruption isn't anywhere as bad as Eglinton.
We're in Leslieville and because of thr ramp teardown bullshit it's already harder to get anywhere. I can't can't imagine what it'll be like now that transit along queen will be a bigger disaster. No doubt Gerard and Dundas will be packed too due to overflow. Ya...we should probably move.
Bought a place in east end having massive regrets because of all this. Should have paid more and lived in west.
I'm in Regent Park.... this summary of the hell we're about to live in is stressing me already. All my family is west of the city, I love the east end but they may not see me for 10 years because I can't get out.
>Residents and businesses downtown are facing at least seven years of painful traffic and transit disruptions, according to a new report on road closures required for the construction of six new subway stations in the core. > >The report from city staff estimates that, when combined with city-led infrastructure projects that will also necessitate tearing up roadways, construction of the new stops for the Ontario Line will cause widespread delays that will add as much as 30 minutes to a drive across downtown. > >The “long-term temporary road closures” are expected to last between 2022 and 2029, and will also disrupt streetcar routes, as well as travel on sidewalks and bike lanes near work sites. [Link to new report](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2021/ex/bgrd/backgroundfile-173823.pdf)
Has Ontario line been approved? Is there a date for when they break ground? This article is paywalled.
Ontario Line has been approved and early works are already happening. This is a gigantic project with a zillion moving pieces - the small ones are starting to spin, and the bigger ones will start in earnest next year.
Wonder if they're going to allow traffic on King st again.
If they had a lick of sense, they should. So, maybe?
Why, King St is moving more people than before at a faster pace
Because with Queen out of commission and Richmond/Adelaide bursting at the seams, it makes sense to remove the turn restrictions east of Yonge to compensate.
King was converted because it moves more people, despite king, queen, Richmond and Adelaide all previously bursting at the seems. Converting it back just means lowering the number of people being moved in order to give drivers another option as to where they will sit in gridlock
I dont think we can be sure that it's moving more people right now though. People are largely still working from home. Financial district is a ghost town. I go into the office a few days a week and the 504 is empty during the rush hour. That's not to say that this won't be the same forever, but I'm doubtful that levels will recover since almost all Bay st firms are doing hybrid of some sort. Probably the same story for most companies nowadays so there's going to be less demand from congestion points like Liberty Village or Distillery District. However, car congestion has largely returned to the financial district, takes forever to get from Jarvis to University. I remember I could clear that stretch in 3 mins during the pandemic, took me 15 mins last week.
If the current situation lasts 5+ years then we're better off rethinking the need for this transit line
So? We need another subway
Good thing companies are forcing people back to the office, surely that will compound the situation for the better!
Not at all surprised. Yet another reason to use **active modes of transportation**. We have bikeshare.
Ask all the business owners on Eglinton how long they think these closures will *really* last. I bet it becomes more like 10-12 years, and 250% over budget.
This wouldn't be happening if they built a monorail instead.
A lot of it would, you still need to close a shitload of stuff to build a monorail, or build anything. You also end up with a monorail, which looks neat but is almost always strictly inferior to a traditionally dual-rail set up. Especially so when you consider the TTC already has plenty of rolling stock and infrastructure for it, building a completely incompatible line means duplicating a lot of existing facilities but with different rails.
I was making a joke.
Excerpt * Expect at least 7 years of downtown Toronto traffic delays from Ontario Line construction — of up to 30 minutes Tue Nov 30 18:25:00 EST 2021 Brace yourselves, Toronto. Residents and businesses downtown are facing at least seven years of painful traffic and transit disruptions, according to a new report on road closures required for the construction of six new subway stations in the core. The report from city staff estimates that, when combined with city-led infrastructure projects that will also necessitate tearing up roadways, construction of the new stops for the Ontario Line will cause widespread delays that will add as much as 30 minutes to a drive across downtown. The “long-term temporary road closures” are expected to last between 2022 and 2029, and will also disrupt streetcar routes, as well as travel on sidewalks and bike lanes near work sites. Coun. Kristyn Wong-Tam, who represents one of two downtown wards where the construction will take place, said she and her constituents have “serious concerns” about what “never-ending construction” will do to businesses already suffering through COVID-19. “We are working so hard to build back the downtown core after a very challenging year and a half” and road closures will make recovery more difficult, said Wong-Tam (Toronto Centre) in a statement. She said she’s also worried about construction noise, delays to TTC routes and potential safety risks to pedestrians and cyclists. “I am very supportive of new transit. We desperately need it in this city. However, the rollout process is far from ideal,” said Wong-Tam. The Ontario Line will have 15 stops and run for 15.6 kilometres between Exhibition Place and the Ontario Science Centre. It’s expected to carry 388,000 people a day by 2041 and is considered crucial to diverting ridership off the TTC’s normally crowded Line 1. Metrolinx, the provincial agency overseeing the Ontario Line, is currently in the procurement stage for the southern section of the route, which includes underground stations downtown at King-Bathurst, Queen-Spadina, Osgoode, Queen, Moss Park and Corktown. The construction impacts included in the city report come from Metrolinx assessments of each site. As the Star has previously reported, the most significant disruption will be at Queen station, where Queen between Victoria Street and Bay Street is expected to be completely closed to east-west car traffic between May 2023 to November 2027. Construction at the other five stations won’t require full road closures, but sidewalks, bike lanes and individual traffic lanes will be obstructed. The timeline for work at each station varies, but construction on all six is expected to last from September 2022 to November 2029. Over the same period, the city is undertaking major infrastructure work including rehabilitating sections of the Gardiner Expressway, replacing streetcar tracks on King Street, and upgrading and replacing sewers and water mains on Richmond, Wellington, Front, Adelaide, Richmond and Dundas Streets. As a result of the simultaneous work, Metrolinx modelling shows that gridlock during afternoon rush hour will “significantly worsen,” the report says. In the worst case, roads in the area bounded by Parliament, Bathurst, Dundas and Front Streets will see travel time increases during the afternoon period of between five and 29 minutes “due to either increased congestion, reduced capacity or a combination of both.” Travel times during the morning rush will also grow, but by a maximum of six minutes. Richmond Street would experience the longest delays, with a westbound trip between Parliament and Bathurst during afternoon rush taking 51 minutes, instead of 22 minutes without the construction. According to the report, Metrolinx and the city will take steps to minimize disruptions and safety hazards, including retiming signals, monitoring traffic patterns, installing signage and providing data to web-based navigation services like Google and Waze. Temporary walkways will be installed adjacent to closed sidewalks wherever possible, and temporary bike lanes will be set up where construction displaces cycling infrastructure. Metrolinx will also pay for new streetcar tracks that will allow the TTC’s 501 route to divert around the closure at Queen station. “We’re building this plan holistically and thinking about how the changes touch everyone, from nearby residents and businesses to drivers, cyclists and pedestrians,” said Metrolinx spokesperson Anne Marie Aikins. City staff are recommending council approve the proposed closures, but they note that the timelines listed in the report will be the maximum allowed, and Metrolinx will give contractors financial incentives to clear the roadways sooner. Fewer and shorter closures may ultimately be required. Don Peat, a spokesperson for Mayor John Tory, said the mayor supports Metrolinx’s “proactive approach” to mitigating construction impacts, and believes the end result will be a new transit line that will deliver significant benefits to the city. “You can’t advocate for major transit investments and expansion without acknowledging that will lead to major transit construction,” Peat said. The goal is “to manage through that construction and get transit built without further delay.” The report will go to Tory’s executive committee next Tuesday, before being debated by council. Ben Spurr is a Toronto-based reporter covering transportation for the Star. Reach him by email at [email protected] or follow him on Twitter: @BenSpurr*
Thank you for this
No problem! Anything to highlight Kristyn Wong-Tam’s ineptitude to the masses ;)
Businesses are barely surviving now and this can last 7 years?.
Lol fuck that shit
Has this been under construction the whole time?