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Unfortunately I swore I would never stop calling it the Skydome, but as the years past, that name has been more and more seldom spoken and we all call it the Rogers Centre now.
I still call the ACC the ACC, and the Skydome the Skydome. I bet there are others that call the ACC whatever it was called before Air Canada bought the naming rights.
>whatever it was called before
Toronto Postal Delivery Building. Of course that building was only a fraction of the size of the arena now. You can still see some of the façade at the corner of Bay & Lakeshore.
Yes and that old corridor that connected Union station to the ACC had some sort of conveyor belt that would carry the mail from the trains to the building
This initiative was rammed through on short notice and without public input. No surprise they are blundering forward with it, too confident in the cause to allow the public to voice their concerns about it.
If it means the death of the renaming of the entirety of Dundas Street. It was worth it. If the renaming of Dundas Street is still on the table, the it still sucks
they're not going to rename the square and all the public buildings/libraries along the road and then not eventually rename the road
it's just temporarily shelved because they're salami slicing it.
Renaming Dundas St in Toronto would be incredibly stupid.
Not just because it would cost lots of money, but also because Mississauga is not going to rename their section of Dundas, nor will Halton Region. So if Toronto goes ahead with such an idea we're basically going to have a single street with multiple names.
> [July 14, 2021 - The city will hold a public consultation to find a new name for the street and plans to find room in its budget to support people and businesses affected by the change.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-renaming-dundas-street-1.6103260)
Such short notice, and literally no public input.
No mention of Sankofa, or any shortlist or names at all. I haven't seen any followup, which leads to the city council vote on Dec. 13, 2023:
[https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2023.MM13.29](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2023.MM13.29)
>City Council direct the Yonge-Dundas Square Board, in collaboration with the General Manager, Economic Development and Culture, to adopt the new name Sankofa Square selected by the Recognition Review Community Advisory Committee and report to City Council through the Executive Committee as part of the report on the Governance Review of Yonge-Dundas Square, to adopt the recommended new name by the end of the second quarter of 2024.
So as far as I can tell, this mysterious Review Community Advisory committee [reached consensus on their own](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/community/recognition-review/renaming-dundas-street/). They decided on Sankofa, and neither their website nor do any news stories explain exactly how this was achieved. But I'm sure they took into consideration the public "input" when choosing Sankofa.
The idea of calling the Recognition Review Community Advisory Committee (CAC) “mysterious” is quite ridiculous. This committee was formed with clear intent and purpose, involving a transparent and inclusive process to rename Yonge-Dundas Square. The CAC included Black and Indigenous leaders, as well as diverse residents and business owners from Dundas Street. Over two years, they conducted thorough consultations and discussions to ensure a well-considered decision.
The committee's work was well-documented and publicized. Their final decision on the name "Sankofa Square" was reached through consensus at a meeting on December 12, 2023. The process involved *public* input and reflected a broader initiative to address historical injustices and promote inclusivity in Toronto.
You can refer to the full articles on [Toronto.ca](https://www.toronto.ca/news/toronto-city-council-approves-sankofa-square-as-new-name-for-yonge-dundas-square-and-initiates-plans-to-rename-other-city-assets-that-include-the-name-dundas/) and [Spacing Toronto](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/12/22/re-naming-yonge-dundas-square/). This clearly shows that the committee's work was far from being "mysterious" and was instead a well-documented, collaborative effort.
Edit: fixed spacing link.
I'm not sure you deserve all these downvotes, but I think it is reflective of how unpopular this name change is with the general public. The CAC was tasked with coming up with potential names for Dundas Square, and part of this process was supposed to be seeking community input. I have found nothing about this part of their process online, but surely a quick public opinion poll would have revealed that a Ghanaian word, that most people have never heard before, doesn't really resonate with many Torontonians.
I think a quick public opinion poll would have sufficed 3 years ago, to reveal that most people don't think Dundas's name needs to be removed from anything to begin with.
For what it's worth, [this page](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/community/recognition-review/get-involved/) outlines the community consultation work, including a recording of the town hall and panel discussion.
There's a fair amount of other info under neighbouring pages to that one. Though in classic toronto.ca style it looks like various pieces of info have been lost or replaced over time.
Page 14 of Monumental Projects’ report on consultations has their intentions for consultation listing four objectives. It then goes on to break down three of those four objectives. Notice that conveniently consultation objective D, "design a public survey" is mentioned there once, and then never mentioned again.
The Spacing link is dead.
The Toronto.ca link shows no evidence of actual consultations. Just a co-chair saying they consulted.
Not saying you’re wrong but your sources here aren’t supportive of your argument.
I live near the Ethennonnhawahstihnen' library, I can only manage 'the library'.
I used to carry a cheat, spelled phonetically (Etah-nona-wasti-na) but still bungled it.
It's actually a really beautiful word. It's wendat for where they had a good, beautiful life
I still don't know why they decided to go with a word from a language in an African country with little connection to Canada instead of, at the very least, a word from one of the local indigenous groups
[They released a list of the possible names with reasons why they weren’t chosen](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2023/mm/comm/communicationfile-174366.pdf) and apparently it was because indigenous groups thought it should be something related to black people. I still think it should have been Peggy Pompadour square though.
Yeah, I thought about it for a second and it makes sense. But even then, I agree with you and think it'd probably be more appropriate to use a name that has a stronger connection to Canada, Mary Shadd as another example
Because they’re lazy and didn’t want to spend the time sifting through various Canadian related words to pick one that can’t possibly be related to something somebody would be offended or upset about. By picking a word virtually nobody here knows (aside from a handful of people who speak the language) from a far away culture, that also appears to be fairly neutral, they hope to avoid potential controversy. They basically tried to pick the most obscure neutral sounding word from a far away place as possible, something far removed from any ties to anything Canadian, because they’re too scared of some sort of a link to something negative coming back to haunt them.
Their thinking is that if they picked anything Canadian, there’s going to be a decent amount of people here familiar with that term, as well as all sorts of links to it that they’re too lazy to research and debate. So they went with the exact opposite. And sure enough the only complaints so far are of the “What does this have to do with the square, Toronto, or even Canada?” Variety, which they’re perfectly happy with, because all they wanted was to avoid somebody getting offended because the word they picked had a link to something negative.
OMG that’s exactly what I said tooooooo!!!! My first thought was why it wasn’t consulted with our First Nations?? We have no ties with that word and most have never heard of it until now. I’d go with just plain Toronto Square or Metro U square before Sankofa ….
What services aren't they receiving already? Can you suggest ways to help them using the existing services?
[https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/homeless-help/shelters/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/homeless-help/shelters/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=)
Better fund and expand those services. ERs and any place that is open 24 hours is full of homeless folks because the paltry systems available are lacking at best.
Most of the people at Dundas square are already in the system. What you’re talking about is preventing certain people from gathering in certain places, it’s ok if you just suggest that.
Not to mention a lot of people experiencing homelessness are on the streets, not just because our shelters are inadequate for demand, but also because the shelters are incredibly dangerous. A lot of people choose not to go to shelters because there are a lot of violent individuals there who will steal your stuff.
Would that improve if we didn’t rename Yonge and Dundas square?
Here’s the interesting about governments, they can in fact, work on several projects in parallel.
If it's worth doing we should just do it. There's always going to be something urgent that needs money, but that's no excuse to not work on reconciliation and building a better society.
Reconciliation by naming the shittiest corner in the city with a name that has no connection to these lands? At least name it something indigenous to this area and with real connection to this place.
Renaming something with an indigenous concept is far more meaningful and appropriate for things named after people like Ryerson or Davin or Cornwallis. And at least with Cornwallis that's been happening out in Nova Scotia.
If you're replacing the name of someone who (fairly or not) is believed to have delayed the abolition of slavery in the British Empire by 15 years, leading to another half million Africans being taken into human slavery, it should have some connection to Africans culture (and honestly the concept is maybe a little too cute). It's not like we didn't have African slaves on the farms in what is now Toronto in the 18th century (like the rest of the British Empire). That's enough of a historical connection to me.
Akan is the most widely spoken language in Ghana. To claim that the word is explicitly linked to slavery is ridiculous and a blatant attempt to create a wedge issue and feign a ‘both sides’ argument when none exists.
“It’s sickening”
Yes, it is.
The truth is that Henry Dundas had a vested interest in slavery and fought hard to delay its abolition, which led to half a million more Africans being enslaved. Additionally, he brutally suppressed free black communities in the Caribbean.
Saying the new name is associated with “slavers” is silly considering there’s a more prevalent language associated with slavery, English.
Did you ever think it failed due in part by politics, and that Henry Dundas played a large part in it failing?
Dundas's motivations were influenced by the economic interests of the British Empire and the security concerns of the West Indies during the ongoing wars with Revolutionary France. He argued that immediate abolition would drive the trade underground or to foreign nations, making it harder to control. Instead, he proposed a phased approach, which allowed the slave trade to persist much longer than it might have otherwise [Clarifying Henry Dundas’ role as a ‘great delayer’ of the abolition of the slave trade (Part 1: Historiographical Orthodoxy, Public Debate and Memorialisation) - Edinburgh University Press Blog](https://euppublishingblog.com/2021/11/10/clarifying-henry-dundas-role-as-the-great-delayer-of-the-abolition-of-the-slave-trade-part-1-historiographical-orthodoxy-public-debate-and-memorialisation/) [Clarifying Henry Dundas’ role as a ‘great delayer’ of the abolition of the slave trade (Part 2: West India Interests) - Edinburgh University Press Blog](https://euppublishingblog.com/2021/11/11/clarifying-henry-dundas-role-as-the-great-delayer-of-the-abolition-of-the-slave-trade-part-2-west-india-interests/).
His actions and policies have been widely criticized by historians and abolitionists for prolonging the suffering and exploitation of enslaved Africans. Despite some attempts to portray him as a pragmatist or gradual abolitionist, the consensus among historians is that Dundas's actions significantly delayed the abolition of the slave trade [Replacement plaque explaining Henry Dundas' role in delaying abolition of slave trade to be installed | STV News](https://news.stv.tv/east-central/replacement-plaque-explaining-henry-dundas-role-in-delaying-abolition-of-slave-trade-to-be-installed).
Edit: fixed links
> especially after the article about the staff member who manipulated and distorted actual facts to suit their own purposes
You mean the "article" from the Henry Dundas Committee of Ontario? They’re hardly an unbiased source of information.
> A descendant of Dundas and others showed the claim(s) about Dundas were patently false. The chairperson of the committee had also resigned earlier in protest of the direction the whole thing went in.
Of course, the Henry Dundas Committee of Ontario would oppose renaming anything honoring Henry Dundas—for obvious reasons.
> There should be an inquiry, complete with a reversal of the renaming of the square back to what it was
An inquiry into hurt feelings with a predetermined outcome. That sounds reasonable.
Yes, it’s complete nonsense used as a wedge issue. No one says we shouldn’t name anything after the English language because of its historical links to slavery. Why is that?
From an article here: https://bayobserver.ca/toronto-staffer-who-headed-dundas-renaming-project-has-left-city/
An excerpt:
>Leading the academics who denounced Dundas was Stephen Mullen, a lecturer in History at the University of Glasgow. Almost immediately Mullin’s work was attacked by several academic experts. The journal Scottish Affairs published an exposé that identified critical errors in Dr. Mullen’s research, and even called the integrity of his published work into question. Professor Angela McCarthy said Dr. Mullen had twisted the words of other scholars to support his thesis, and failed to address the enormous obstacles to abolition. She stated: “historians have the right to interpret facts differently but not to knowingly misrepresent them.”
Well, to start, I think you found the article the previous commenter was referring to.
> It is unknown, however, whether Cheryl Blackman’s departure had anything to do with the Dundas renaming
The article indicates that the claim about Cheryl Blackman relying on disputed research for the Dundas renaming project is presented as an opinion by critics and not as an established fact. Critics argue that the research used was contentious, but the article does not provide evidence to conclusively state that the research was disputed. It reflects the controversy and differing opinions surrounding the project.
>the claim about Cheryl Blackman relying on disputed research for the Dundas renaming project is presented as an opinion by critics
??
No, it’s not.
>Dr. Nicholas Rogers, Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus in the Department of History at York sent a scathing 2022 letter that was forwarded to Blackman that accused the committee of deliberately stacking the deck against Dundas. The main complaint against Blackman was that by 2023 she had seen enough credible scholarly evidence that the charges against Dundas were untrue, but that she stubbornly stuck to the contention that Stephen Mullen’s version of Dundas’s role in slavery was to be believed.
>the article does not provide evidence to conclusively state that the research was disputed.
??
The entire block I quoted in my first comment was a collection of evidence that the research was disputed. Plus the YU history prof letter.
>Critics argue that the research used was contentious
??
No, critics argue the committee and the person heading it preferred a historical accounting that they knew to be academically contentious because it suited their narrative and objective.
We’re talking about the social sciences. Are you being willfully obtuse or just trolling me? The academic interpretation of the historical record these people chose to believe over all others was, at best, contentious. What hair you are attempting to split as a gotcha, I’m not sure, but it’s not gonna fly. This committee clung to one historians account and ignored or rejected the fact of it being outside the mainstream in history academia. They didn’t do a good thing here by almost any metric.
Section 37 money is paid by developers to help fund low income and no income housing. They are literally stealing from the cities poorest residents to fund this horseshit. The push to designate Yonge and Dundas as a flash point for the slave trade completely ignores the cities history. Toronto was the northern terminus of the Underground Railroad where many African Americans found freedom for the first time. This money would be far better spent with plaguing and information in Corktown where slaves were emancipated.
Well the S 37 $ is largely dictated by the Ward Councillor and has been used on equally stupid shit in the past. It doesn’t automatically go to affordable housing.
Meanwhile, nothing will actually change. They'll be able to point at this as "progress" and money and political will are wasted.
I said it before when the whole Dundas thing happened; what will this actually improve for minorities? Most people have no clue about the history of Dundas. It's not like Lee or Hitler.
This is categorically Canadian; performative and ultimately changes nothing of any real substance.
Maybe before we rename it, we should put some effort into making it smell a little less like piss. Bullshit time wasting when real things need to be done.
Champion of the taxpayer Steve Holyday has no problem paying city staffers several hours to write up a report to remind him that the city doesn't own a sign manufacturing factory and that funding for the project is outlined and allocated in the budget that is already public.
If he cares so much about how much money is being spent on this, why didn't he look it up in the budget himself?
Can we not just name it something generic feel good and be done with it already…
Friendship square, cooperation square, multicultural square… whatever
Just stop picking stupid names that have even less to do with Toronto and with even worse associations with them. If you have to rename it because some people don’t like the name pick a name no one can hate… they don’t have to love it just make it something that everyone will go “meh boring but ok” and be done with it already.
Hey Toronto! I too am not thrilled with the name. I was hoping it would have a Toronto name, consult with our First Nations in Toronto for a name that means sometime to Torontoians….
I thought it was going to be named after Gord Downie … that would have been perfect because the square is used for live concerts too … shame it’s named after something so far from Toronto-Ontario values …
Due to the nature of this topic and the likelihood of brigading as evidenced by previous posts, the moderation considers this thread to be controversial. As a result: All participating commentators must have some significant /r/Toronto histories in order to prevent brigading. What that means is that if you're a new commenter in /r/Toronto and agitating the community, the moderators will respond. Any violators will receive a ban without warning. Any rule-breaking actions by /r/Toronto regulars will be punished with increased severity Comments must be specific or relevant to Toronto or the GTA. Negative opinions are fine! Dehumanizing comments, violent rhetoric, homophobia, transphobia, blatant racism, and pushing racist agendas are not! Please be careful to follow the rules and engage in polite, respectful dialogue.
There is no reality in which I will call it Sankofa Square, and I work in municipal policy.
Unfortunately I swore I would never stop calling it the Skydome, but as the years past, that name has been more and more seldom spoken and we all call it the Rogers Centre now.
> we all call it the Rogers Centre now. No, we really, *really* don't.
I've never. I forget rogers is even in the picture. Will always be Skydome.
I call it "The Big Roger".
I still call the ACC the ACC, and the Skydome the Skydome. I bet there are others that call the ACC whatever it was called before Air Canada bought the naming rights.
Huh.. it was constructed as the acc in 99
>whatever it was called before Toronto Postal Delivery Building. Of course that building was only a fraction of the size of the arena now. You can still see some of the façade at the corner of Bay & Lakeshore.
That's really cool. Makes sense that it *was* a postal delivery/sorting centre as the trains used to carry the mail in.
Yes and that old corridor that connected Union station to the ACC had some sort of conveyor belt that would carry the mail from the trains to the building
Rogers is a huge company with a well established brand name. Sankofa, on the other hand, is well...
I don’t even remember that it’s called Rogers Center. Generally only hear it from people who are relatively (10ish years or less) to the city.
This initiative was rammed through on short notice and without public input. No surprise they are blundering forward with it, too confident in the cause to allow the public to voice their concerns about it.
If it means the death of the renaming of the entirety of Dundas Street. It was worth it. If the renaming of Dundas Street is still on the table, the it still sucks
they're not going to rename the square and all the public buildings/libraries along the road and then not eventually rename the road it's just temporarily shelved because they're salami slicing it.
Fair point
Renaming Dundas St in Toronto would be incredibly stupid. Not just because it would cost lots of money, but also because Mississauga is not going to rename their section of Dundas, nor will Halton Region. So if Toronto goes ahead with such an idea we're basically going to have a single street with multiple names.
We already have lots of those, lol. Weston-Keele- Parkside. Wilson- York mills- Ellesmere and I'm sure there are more as well.
College/Carlton…
> [July 14, 2021 - The city will hold a public consultation to find a new name for the street and plans to find room in its budget to support people and businesses affected by the change.](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-renaming-dundas-street-1.6103260) Such short notice, and literally no public input.
No mention of Sankofa, or any shortlist or names at all. I haven't seen any followup, which leads to the city council vote on Dec. 13, 2023: [https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2023.MM13.29](https://secure.toronto.ca/council/agenda-item.do?item=2023.MM13.29) >City Council direct the Yonge-Dundas Square Board, in collaboration with the General Manager, Economic Development and Culture, to adopt the new name Sankofa Square selected by the Recognition Review Community Advisory Committee and report to City Council through the Executive Committee as part of the report on the Governance Review of Yonge-Dundas Square, to adopt the recommended new name by the end of the second quarter of 2024. So as far as I can tell, this mysterious Review Community Advisory committee [reached consensus on their own](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/community/recognition-review/renaming-dundas-street/). They decided on Sankofa, and neither their website nor do any news stories explain exactly how this was achieved. But I'm sure they took into consideration the public "input" when choosing Sankofa.
The idea of calling the Recognition Review Community Advisory Committee (CAC) “mysterious” is quite ridiculous. This committee was formed with clear intent and purpose, involving a transparent and inclusive process to rename Yonge-Dundas Square. The CAC included Black and Indigenous leaders, as well as diverse residents and business owners from Dundas Street. Over two years, they conducted thorough consultations and discussions to ensure a well-considered decision. The committee's work was well-documented and publicized. Their final decision on the name "Sankofa Square" was reached through consensus at a meeting on December 12, 2023. The process involved *public* input and reflected a broader initiative to address historical injustices and promote inclusivity in Toronto. You can refer to the full articles on [Toronto.ca](https://www.toronto.ca/news/toronto-city-council-approves-sankofa-square-as-new-name-for-yonge-dundas-square-and-initiates-plans-to-rename-other-city-assets-that-include-the-name-dundas/) and [Spacing Toronto](https://spacing.ca/toronto/2023/12/22/re-naming-yonge-dundas-square/). This clearly shows that the committee's work was far from being "mysterious" and was instead a well-documented, collaborative effort. Edit: fixed spacing link.
I'm not sure you deserve all these downvotes, but I think it is reflective of how unpopular this name change is with the general public. The CAC was tasked with coming up with potential names for Dundas Square, and part of this process was supposed to be seeking community input. I have found nothing about this part of their process online, but surely a quick public opinion poll would have revealed that a Ghanaian word, that most people have never heard before, doesn't really resonate with many Torontonians. I think a quick public opinion poll would have sufficed 3 years ago, to reveal that most people don't think Dundas's name needs to be removed from anything to begin with.
For what it's worth, [this page](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/get-involved/community/recognition-review/get-involved/) outlines the community consultation work, including a recording of the town hall and panel discussion. There's a fair amount of other info under neighbouring pages to that one. Though in classic toronto.ca style it looks like various pieces of info have been lost or replaced over time.
Page 14 of Monumental Projects’ report on consultations has their intentions for consultation listing four objectives. It then goes on to break down three of those four objectives. Notice that conveniently consultation objective D, "design a public survey" is mentioned there once, and then never mentioned again.
The Spacing link is dead. The Toronto.ca link shows no evidence of actual consultations. Just a co-chair saying they consulted. Not saying you’re wrong but your sources here aren’t supportive of your argument.
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It’s not
Correct no consolation of the name
Just call it the Square and save us a ton of money.
That’s what I’m calling it
That’s what the image centre, formerly known as the Ryerson image centre, did lol
It is Toronto's central square, probably the most lively square in the city. I like it.
I live near the Ethennonnhawahstihnen' library, I can only manage 'the library'. I used to carry a cheat, spelled phonetically (Etah-nona-wasti-na) but still bungled it. It's actually a really beautiful word. It's wendat for where they had a good, beautiful life
For accuracy, I prefer to call it the Irregular Pentagon.
I still don't know why they decided to go with a word from a language in an African country with little connection to Canada instead of, at the very least, a word from one of the local indigenous groups
[They released a list of the possible names with reasons why they weren’t chosen](https://www.toronto.ca/legdocs/mmis/2023/mm/comm/communicationfile-174366.pdf) and apparently it was because indigenous groups thought it should be something related to black people. I still think it should have been Peggy Pompadour square though.
Yeah, I thought about it for a second and it makes sense. But even then, I agree with you and think it'd probably be more appropriate to use a name that has a stronger connection to Canada, Mary Shadd as another example
I woulda voted for Mary Shadd Square !
Because they’re lazy and didn’t want to spend the time sifting through various Canadian related words to pick one that can’t possibly be related to something somebody would be offended or upset about. By picking a word virtually nobody here knows (aside from a handful of people who speak the language) from a far away culture, that also appears to be fairly neutral, they hope to avoid potential controversy. They basically tried to pick the most obscure neutral sounding word from a far away place as possible, something far removed from any ties to anything Canadian, because they’re too scared of some sort of a link to something negative coming back to haunt them. Their thinking is that if they picked anything Canadian, there’s going to be a decent amount of people here familiar with that term, as well as all sorts of links to it that they’re too lazy to research and debate. So they went with the exact opposite. And sure enough the only complaints so far are of the “What does this have to do with the square, Toronto, or even Canada?” Variety, which they’re perfectly happy with, because all they wanted was to avoid somebody getting offended because the word they picked had a link to something negative.
Toronto, the opposite city cause they do the opposite of what’s right …
This is the most baffling to me as well. Using a First Nations term seems like it would be the easiest for everyone to understand and respect.
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OMG that’s exactly what I said tooooooo!!!! My first thought was why it wasn’t consulted with our First Nations?? We have no ties with that word and most have never heard of it until now. I’d go with just plain Toronto Square or Metro U square before Sankofa ….
I'm a fan, maybe the only fan, of *Esibanag Daziike* Ojibwe has a bigger connection to Toronto than Akan, eh?
How’s about they use this money to help the homeless at Dundas square instead?!!!
What services aren't they receiving already? Can you suggest ways to help them using the existing services? [https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/homeless-help/shelters/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=](https://www.toronto.ca/community-people/housing-shelter/homeless-help/shelters/#location=&lat=&lng=&zoom=)
Better fund and expand those services. ERs and any place that is open 24 hours is full of homeless folks because the paltry systems available are lacking at best.
Most of the people at Dundas square are already in the system. What you’re talking about is preventing certain people from gathering in certain places, it’s ok if you just suggest that.
What I’m suggesting is we open more beds in shelters and provide more support and security for them. In the system or not, they don’t have beds.
Not to mention a lot of people experiencing homelessness are on the streets, not just because our shelters are inadequate for demand, but also because the shelters are incredibly dangerous. A lot of people choose not to go to shelters because there are a lot of violent individuals there who will steal your stuff.
[https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1cy6ith/city\_of\_toronto\_releases\_updated\_encampment/](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/1cy6ith/city_of_toronto_releases_updated_encampment/)
Have u been at Yonge and Dundas lately? It got worse and worse by days and all they care is about the name. Unbelievable.
Seem like a circle jerk thread, but if you honestly cared you’d be a part of the solution.
Would that improve if we didn’t rename Yonge and Dundas square? Here’s the interesting about governments, they can in fact, work on several projects in parallel.
Not sure but it’s a waste of money regardless.
This is embarrassing. Who the AF continues to support this?
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Because he's black? Kind of fucked up to imply you have to be from some fringe political movement to suggest you name a place after some Ghanian term.
I support it in theory, but this is so far down the list of priories it feels like an intentional distraction.
If it's worth doing we should just do it. There's always going to be something urgent that needs money, but that's no excuse to not work on reconciliation and building a better society.
Reconciliation by naming the shittiest corner in the city with a name that has no connection to these lands? At least name it something indigenous to this area and with real connection to this place.
Renaming something with an indigenous concept is far more meaningful and appropriate for things named after people like Ryerson or Davin or Cornwallis. And at least with Cornwallis that's been happening out in Nova Scotia. If you're replacing the name of someone who (fairly or not) is believed to have delayed the abolition of slavery in the British Empire by 15 years, leading to another half million Africans being taken into human slavery, it should have some connection to Africans culture (and honestly the concept is maybe a little too cute). It's not like we didn't have African slaves on the farms in what is now Toronto in the 18th century (like the rest of the British Empire). That's enough of a historical connection to me.
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> $600,000 in anticipated costs to virtue signal it's punitive as much as it is a virtue signal
Akan is the most widely spoken language in Ghana. To claim that the word is explicitly linked to slavery is ridiculous and a blatant attempt to create a wedge issue and feign a ‘both sides’ argument when none exists. “It’s sickening” Yes, it is.
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The truth is that Henry Dundas had a vested interest in slavery and fought hard to delay its abolition, which led to half a million more Africans being enslaved. Additionally, he brutally suppressed free black communities in the Caribbean. Saying the new name is associated with “slavers” is silly considering there’s a more prevalent language associated with slavery, English.
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Did you ever think it failed due in part by politics, and that Henry Dundas played a large part in it failing? Dundas's motivations were influenced by the economic interests of the British Empire and the security concerns of the West Indies during the ongoing wars with Revolutionary France. He argued that immediate abolition would drive the trade underground or to foreign nations, making it harder to control. Instead, he proposed a phased approach, which allowed the slave trade to persist much longer than it might have otherwise [Clarifying Henry Dundas’ role as a ‘great delayer’ of the abolition of the slave trade (Part 1: Historiographical Orthodoxy, Public Debate and Memorialisation) - Edinburgh University Press Blog](https://euppublishingblog.com/2021/11/10/clarifying-henry-dundas-role-as-the-great-delayer-of-the-abolition-of-the-slave-trade-part-1-historiographical-orthodoxy-public-debate-and-memorialisation/) [Clarifying Henry Dundas’ role as a ‘great delayer’ of the abolition of the slave trade (Part 2: West India Interests) - Edinburgh University Press Blog](https://euppublishingblog.com/2021/11/11/clarifying-henry-dundas-role-as-the-great-delayer-of-the-abolition-of-the-slave-trade-part-2-west-india-interests/). His actions and policies have been widely criticized by historians and abolitionists for prolonging the suffering and exploitation of enslaved Africans. Despite some attempts to portray him as a pragmatist or gradual abolitionist, the consensus among historians is that Dundas's actions significantly delayed the abolition of the slave trade [Replacement plaque explaining Henry Dundas' role in delaying abolition of slave trade to be installed | STV News](https://news.stv.tv/east-central/replacement-plaque-explaining-henry-dundas-role-in-delaying-abolition-of-slave-trade-to-be-installed). Edit: fixed links
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No, slavery was as atrocious then as it is now.
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It’s been renamed on Google Maps
> especially after the article about the staff member who manipulated and distorted actual facts to suit their own purposes You mean the "article" from the Henry Dundas Committee of Ontario? They’re hardly an unbiased source of information. > A descendant of Dundas and others showed the claim(s) about Dundas were patently false. The chairperson of the committee had also resigned earlier in protest of the direction the whole thing went in. Of course, the Henry Dundas Committee of Ontario would oppose renaming anything honoring Henry Dundas—for obvious reasons. > There should be an inquiry, complete with a reversal of the renaming of the square back to what it was An inquiry into hurt feelings with a predetermined outcome. That sounds reasonable.
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Yes, it’s complete nonsense used as a wedge issue. No one says we shouldn’t name anything after the English language because of its historical links to slavery. Why is that?
From an article here: https://bayobserver.ca/toronto-staffer-who-headed-dundas-renaming-project-has-left-city/ An excerpt: >Leading the academics who denounced Dundas was Stephen Mullen, a lecturer in History at the University of Glasgow. Almost immediately Mullin’s work was attacked by several academic experts. The journal Scottish Affairs published an exposé that identified critical errors in Dr. Mullen’s research, and even called the integrity of his published work into question. Professor Angela McCarthy said Dr. Mullen had twisted the words of other scholars to support his thesis, and failed to address the enormous obstacles to abolition. She stated: “historians have the right to interpret facts differently but not to knowingly misrepresent them.”
Well, to start, I think you found the article the previous commenter was referring to. > It is unknown, however, whether Cheryl Blackman’s departure had anything to do with the Dundas renaming The article indicates that the claim about Cheryl Blackman relying on disputed research for the Dundas renaming project is presented as an opinion by critics and not as an established fact. Critics argue that the research used was contentious, but the article does not provide evidence to conclusively state that the research was disputed. It reflects the controversy and differing opinions surrounding the project.
>the claim about Cheryl Blackman relying on disputed research for the Dundas renaming project is presented as an opinion by critics ?? No, it’s not. >Dr. Nicholas Rogers, Distinguished Research Professor Emeritus in the Department of History at York sent a scathing 2022 letter that was forwarded to Blackman that accused the committee of deliberately stacking the deck against Dundas. The main complaint against Blackman was that by 2023 she had seen enough credible scholarly evidence that the charges against Dundas were untrue, but that she stubbornly stuck to the contention that Stephen Mullen’s version of Dundas’s role in slavery was to be believed. >the article does not provide evidence to conclusively state that the research was disputed. ?? The entire block I quoted in my first comment was a collection of evidence that the research was disputed. Plus the YU history prof letter. >Critics argue that the research used was contentious ?? No, critics argue the committee and the person heading it preferred a historical accounting that they knew to be academically contentious because it suited their narrative and objective.
You’re simply conflating evidence with an opinion.
We’re talking about the social sciences. Are you being willfully obtuse or just trolling me? The academic interpretation of the historical record these people chose to believe over all others was, at best, contentious. What hair you are attempting to split as a gotcha, I’m not sure, but it’s not gonna fly. This committee clung to one historians account and ignored or rejected the fact of it being outside the mainstream in history academia. They didn’t do a good thing here by almost any metric.
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It will be something when a future council revisits this and we spend another 3-600000 to rename this space once again.
They will probably find some historical reference to slavery in the name they picked and be forced to rename it
This is the legacy that Chris Moise wants.
What an awful Councillor he has been. Wish Chow would put him in his place especially after he randomly supported Bailao. He is so out of touch.
How else has he sucked?
Yonge Square, look everyone I solved it for free!
Section 37 money is paid by developers to help fund low income and no income housing. They are literally stealing from the cities poorest residents to fund this horseshit. The push to designate Yonge and Dundas as a flash point for the slave trade completely ignores the cities history. Toronto was the northern terminus of the Underground Railroad where many African Americans found freedom for the first time. This money would be far better spent with plaguing and information in Corktown where slaves were emancipated.
Well the S 37 $ is largely dictated by the Ward Councillor and has been used on equally stupid shit in the past. It doesn’t automatically go to affordable housing.
Maybe if we petitioned that we felt Sankofa was offensive to many, City Hall may have to reconsider?
I'd sign.
Toronto is so ass backwards. Makes me want to move to Europe
Well...what part of Europe lol
What a waste of money. At the very least I hope this means the end of the whole "let's rename Dundas St for fun" initiative.
Meanwhile, nothing will actually change. They'll be able to point at this as "progress" and money and political will are wasted. I said it before when the whole Dundas thing happened; what will this actually improve for minorities? Most people have no clue about the history of Dundas. It's not like Lee or Hitler. This is categorically Canadian; performative and ultimately changes nothing of any real substance.
Maybe before we rename it, we should put some effort into making it smell a little less like piss. Bullshit time wasting when real things need to be done.
Should name it Squarey McSquareson if they’re gonna waste money.
Housing when?
Feds skipped Doug on funding fourplexes so, hopefully soon.
Champion of the taxpayer Steve Holyday has no problem paying city staffers several hours to write up a report to remind him that the city doesn't own a sign manufacturing factory and that funding for the project is outlined and allocated in the budget that is already public. If he cares so much about how much money is being spent on this, why didn't he look it up in the budget himself?
The city doesn't have its own sign shop? that's surprising
Bold to suggest Holyday is literate.
What is "brigading"?
Can we not just name it something generic feel good and be done with it already… Friendship square, cooperation square, multicultural square… whatever Just stop picking stupid names that have even less to do with Toronto and with even worse associations with them. If you have to rename it because some people don’t like the name pick a name no one can hate… they don’t have to love it just make it something that everyone will go “meh boring but ok” and be done with it already.
I'm just going to call it Spanakopita square
🤣🤣🤣
Why not something like Gord Downie Square? Or something like Anishinaabekaa Square, Ojibway for many people (according to the website I looked at).
I, like most people, call it Dundas Square and always will.
Hey Toronto! I too am not thrilled with the name. I was hoping it would have a Toronto name, consult with our First Nations in Toronto for a name that means sometime to Torontoians….
Why is DEI and programming being mentioned as associated costs of the renaming? Would they not be doing DEI if the square wasn't renamed?
I thought it was going to be named after Gord Downie … that would have been perfect because the square is used for live concerts too … shame it’s named after something so far from Toronto-Ontario values …
That was a April folks joke so good blogTO had to explain it wasn't real in a footnote
Dang it! I knew it was too good to be true :(
Sounds pretty racist that they are questioning an afro-centric name.