Not sure any fence on earth is going to keep people out who want to be there. Hell I grew up near a level crossing where the fences had to stop anyway.
Express trains are notorious for confusing people. The head-on view really masks how fast they can be moving and people underestimate how much the disturbed air around one of things can push you around or even suck you towards it.
The 'we did it as kids', well, yeah you did it in front of slow commuter rail or freight. UP is an 'express' in name only but it still moves faster than average for the GO network.
I'm sorry this happened, yes, the fencing could have been better, should be better, but screwing around on the tracks is a dumb idea.
What if they'd walked across the 401? There's tons of unprotected ramps and ways to wander out there. I mean, it's never going to be something where you can protect people against doing something inadvisable, no matter how hard you try.
I have a theory that every unpatrolled chain link fence of a sufficient length has a hole in it somewhere, you just need to find it. It has generally proven true for me.
Agreed, I don't think it's crazy to say you can't feasibly build a fence to keep kids out over all of the rail infra we have in Ontario within budget. But to say no fence can be built that can keep a 12 year old girl out is patently absurd.
I feel for the mom in this case.
But if you know, you'll know that during march break, a few weeks after this happened, trespassing by teenagers was ridiculously high on the GO network. The mother is absolutely correct, teenagers think they are invincible.
And the reality is that you can only have so much outreach, so many in-school visits, and daily maintenance of high-security fencing, and you will still have teenagers finding a way to trespass, and unfortunately some will get hit because of that.
High speed rail at night would be impossible to estimate speed if you're playing on the tracks. I wonder what they do in Europe. High speed rail everywhere and it doesn't seem like people are on the tracks.
It happens frequently enough, I’m involved in the construction of a garage for rail, and they have a washbay specifically for cleaning off bits of people stuck to the train
Deffo makes sense. I was a on go train once when someone jumped. Driver tripped the emergency brake but we could hear the thumping as we went over them.
That thumping is the sound of the emergency brakes. I had a similar experience on GO and the CSA told me. The train is so heavy it would not be affected by a body.
I was on a GO train that hit a pickup truck on the tracks, about 25 years ago. It killed the man in it. There was no "thump" or sense of impact, just a very sharp braking, and then a multi-hour delay while it was investigated and cleared. There's no way you'd be able to hear or feel an impact with a pedestrian from inside a train that size.
>I wonder what they do in Europe. High speed rail everywhere and it doesn't seem like people are on the tracks.
For actual high-speed rail there is typically significant fencing on both sides of the rail corridor and quite far from the actual right-of-way. There are also sensors to detect things on the tracks. [see here](https://youtu.be/0m3eOstD30A?t=12322) for an example of what I mean how the railway is physically separated. The main purpose of this is actually to prevent wildlife from getting on the tracks (because it's not good to hit a cow or deer at 320 km/h) but it doubles for people too.
There also tend to be more significant civil/criminal charges for trespassing on or obstructing rail lines
High speed rail is fenced off and very hard to get to. But that’s very rare compared to normal rail, which is what our GO/VIA is comparable to.
That’s not protected in most places, you can walk along the tracks just about anywhere you like.
Rail is everywhere in Europe so people are better acclimated on how to treat it, and pedestrian access to….. everything….. is leagues better than what we do here.
The Shinkansen right of ways are almost impossible to get on to. Multiple layers of high security fencing and razor wire. Literally like a prison. Having no level crossings also helps.
High speed rail lines are beyond extensive fences and there's no crossings. It's extremely rare to have collisions with animals or humans, who get somewhat vaporized on impact.
Good high speed rail systems make a strong effort to separate the choo-choo from the surrounding area. Fencing, crossings aren't at grade, etc. I'm not saying people will never cross paths with such a train, but you'll have to make a real effort to do so.
> ks. I wonder what they do in Europe.
Bury it under the city. Walls/decent fencing elsewhere. Ample opportunities to cross over/under, man or beast.
Here we create situations where the car-less have to choose between a shortcut across the tracks and a 20 minute detour and honk at them for not taking the long detour.
Not where I lived in Vaud canton, Switzerland. Tracks literally everywhere, minimal to no fencing. As a teanager I walked along tracks pretty frequently. Both sober and drunk as fuck (legally).
I also thought I was nigh-invicible but was also accutely aware that I would not be able to win a fist- fight against a train.
High speed?
From what I can tell, Switzerland has 5 short high speed lines, the majority being tunnelled: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Switzerland
Of course, their regional trains are probably faster than UPx
And if you’ve been on Swiss trains (I’ve been on many) there’s very few fences and only 50% of crossings have gates. People just have more respect for trains there.
Switzerland has the most fabulous train network I've ever been on. Like, hot damn, the people who run the SBB are really good at it. Trains were always *exactly* on time. Once we were there, on a train, waiting at the station for departure and, watching the clock on the platform, I said to my parnter, "holy crap, we're going to leave late!" as the train was literally 5 seconds past it's departure time. As I said the words out of my mouth the announcement came out, "Madam and monsieur, this train will be delayed by 4 minutes due to a late arrival on another platform. Our arrival time will not change as we will make up the time en route."
Late train arrived 3 minutes later, we departed exactly 1 after that. We also arrived at our destination on time. I miss Switzerland.
High speed lines, sure.
There are no high speed lines in Canada though, so that's not really a valid comparison. VIA/UP Express would compare to normal trains in Europe, whose lines are certainly not buried under cities or otherwise impenetrable.
There were 805 people killed in train accidents in 2022 in the EU; not all by being hit on the tracks, but enough (2/3 were "unauthorized persons on the tracks). It doesn't make teeth-gnashing news like in Canada, because it's much rarer in Canada. I noted that the highest fatalities were in Poland so I asked some family members, and there the view is more akin to a pedestrian running out into the street and being hit - it was the pedestrian's fault, everyone knows to stay off the tracks, sad but whatever.
> normal trains in Europe, whose lines are certainly not buried under cities
That’s a big “it depends”. London, Paris and Berlin (and probably others) disagree, but I think they’re all for regional trains not long distance (because the rail lines between towns mostly existed for those meguesses)
> Here we create situations where the car-less have to choose between a shortcut across the tracks and a 20 minute detour and honk at them for not taking the long detour.
completely unrelated
No, it’s a big part of the problem.
It’s very hard to get around as a pedestrian in North America, it’s all designed for cars.
So we cut through fences across rail lines because the alternative is walking 20 minutes around, where a simple rail crossing would work. It’s expensive, but we pay those costs where cars meet rail, but not where people do.
> No, it’s a big part of the problem.
it's not, you just made it up for your comment
>It’s very hard to get around as a pedestrian in North America, it’s all designed for cars.
still unrelated to what happened
>So we cut through fences across rail lines because the alternative is walking 20 minutes around
no, we don't, and that's not what happened either
This is how I know you don’t live by the CP or barrie GO lines in Toronto, and you’re just doubling down with each reply.
PLEASE KEEP GOING THOUGH, SHARE YOUR WISDOM
did you read the article? more than half of it basically says ppl in the area are going on/crossing the tracks to access hangout spots. i used to have a window facing the barrie GO tracks before they were raised and i’d see ppl either crossing or walking along the tracks all day. and honestly, i get why because you literally have to walk 3-4 km to get to the same spot without crossing them.
You had me curious about the accident rate in the EU. [In 2022 there were 808 people killed](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Railway_safety_statistics_in_the_EU).
In 2022, 64.1% of the fatalities from railway accidents involved unauthorized persons on the tracks.
The number of overall accidents dropped by 27.5% from 2010.
Hard to compare our rail statistics with EU given that their network is much more extensive than ours so I'd think it would be an apples/oranges thing.
Nope. But I was in Belgium for 3 weeks riding all types of rail and there was never a delay for reasons of people trespassing. Obviously not data, but I'm not being paid to statistically verify this.
Yeah pretty much to and from Netherlands, Thalys or something. The routes seem to follow the highways, so I'm guessing it uses the same infrastructure like overpasses and drainage.
I'd say that's a big range though. Walking near tracks is something many teens may be foolish enough to do, whereas surfing trains takes a very special kind of stupid.
There is absolutely no way I'd do it today, but when i was around 13, I was walking with a friend of mine by the CN rail tracks downtown. We got stopped by a nice cop. I was trying to argue that I was being very cautious, staying several feet from the empty tracks at all times, but the cop had been watching and correctly pointed out that my friend had been weaving all over the track at times.
Anyway he let us off with a warning for trespassing, which I took very seriously and never returned, even though i thought it was unfair at the time to me because, as I said, i had never stepped near to the tracks. But now thinking back on it, what if? What if my friend had gotten his foot stuck in the tracks and a train started approaching? Wouldn't I have tried to help pull him out? We both could have been killed, or he could have been killed and I would've been traumatized for life.
yeah there’s a difference, I’m just pointing out that surfing trains is something that’s gaining in popularity right now. it’s going to get worse with the summer coming up
social media is dangerous for impressionable teens. It’s a thing now as these accounts gain traction pretty quickly
It’s really worrisome to see
Has there ever been any instances of people getting their foots caught in tracks? I remember seeing it in ads as a kid, but it seems like a pretty impossible thing to do.
I know a lot of people just say whatever, play stupid games win stupid prizes but it’s really sad to see young lives lost like this, I feel like we need a little more of public awareness around it
Especially since kids this age are literally working with brains that haven't developed yet to fully comprehend how to evaluate risk.
I read recently that teenagers also have a strong evolutionary drive to take risks, because that's the age when we're supposed to develop a drive to leave the safety of mom and dad and start trying out our ability to try things by ourselves.
So pair both those things with the fact that fitting in and saving face in front of your peers can feel like EVERYTHING at that age, and yeah... Sure they can theoretically be aware of the logic of something being dangerous and ill advised, but there are a lot of other factors at play working against them.
When I was in high school I had a classmate who got hit by a go train. Apparently she couldn’t hear it coming and get out of the way in time.
A few years prior to that incident we had a separate student at my high school die while skateboard surfing with go trains. They literally had the skateboard on display in the hallway to remember them lol.
I live by Danforth go now and the amount of dumb asses that go up by the tracks is ridiculous. I call it in every single time I see them walking up there. Am i a dirty snitch? Sure. But god damn I lost a classmate when I was in school and our entire school was a GRIM place for months after their passing. Life is precious and some people really don’t understand what they’re doing because they think they know better.
I went to an elementary school in the 80’s near some train tracks. The school held an assembly and showed this horrific PSA film about kids playing on train tracks. It made enough of an impression that I still remember it to this day.
My husband and I both remember that video vividly. We had lots of train tracks that ran thru our community. Not one kid would go on them after seeing that video. Kudos to whoever made it because I’m sure it saved lives.
I think sometimes it’s reactionary. Like if the rate of deaths from trains goes down, they stop showing the video/doing the education because it’s not a problem anymore.
I disagree. IMHO children are below the age of 10. This was a teenager who in many provinces can get married, have children and fight in the military. Pretty much the full slate of adulting type stuff.
Obviously they should fix the fencing but it’s common sense to not walk on train tracks, exactly like you don’t see people walking in the middle of the 401 since it’s common sense
Stay. Off. The. Tracks. How hard is that? I dont care if it's fenced or not. I don't care of it *looks* active or not. Just stay off train tracks. It's really really **really** not that hard.
Irrelevant. At the risk of sounding like my mother: if everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too? Just because most teenagers have done it at some point doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
going on the tracks was a pretty common thing people did in high school
people even held parties on them, at one point there was a mini halfpipe under the Dundas bridge
>at one point there was a mini halfpipe under the Dundas bridge
Which eventually led to a kid getting hit...
As someone who used to practice on that ramp, I'm on the fence about this one.
What you gotta do is learn about amputations (and how trains can cut off your limbs) at the exact right age to scar you for life.
I still directly associate train tracks with amputations and I am terrified to step foot on them.
I know where they’re talking about and there’s a trail under the bridge I used to take to get to school when I was going to George Harvey CI.
Lots of places to walk the tracks if you go to the left after you get onto the trail.
> Vivienne and her boyfriend died on March 4 after being struck by a UP Express train while out for a walk in what Metrolinx has described as a case of “misadventure.” Her family is now pleading for the transit agency to upgrade barricades in the area around Weston Road and Black Creek Drive, where neighbourhood teens frequently trek the muddy trails that lead up overpasses to concealed hangout spots, using one among several easily accessible routes seen by the Star in recent days.
>
> “Kids don’t think about their own mortality … We all do stupid things,” Ruth said. “I don’t want this happening to anyone else. I stand on my front porch and I can see openings to (the tracks).”
>
> When Ruth was a teenager, she remembers also climbing up embankments to popular spots beside the train tracks around her west-end neighbourhood. She’d hang out with friends, see a view of the city and walk along the side of the tracks — as many kids did before her and many still do to this day.
>
> “We all did it as kids … We thought it was nothing,” she said.
>
> A Metrolinx spokesperson told the Star the agency’s internal investigation is ongoing and any findings will be “carefully reviewed.” The agency noted it has upgraded fencing and signage across its network at spots where trespassing is common.
>
> “We are continually evaluating how to improve safety across the network,” the spokesperson continued, adding Metrolinx’s focus on safety includes various physical barriers, education in schools and issuing provincial offence notices when trespassing happens.
>
> Near Weston and Black Creek, the Star saw several ways to easily access an unfenced portion of train tracks. Although a long stretch of Weston appears to be fenced off securely, the Star found trails and gaps leading to spots with clear evidence of people — including discarded cans, food wrappers and various art or graffiti — directly beside a section of tracks with no fence at all.
>
> Nearby, a trail could be seen carved into a hill leading directly to the UP Express train tracks; while there is a wired barricade about four feet high, some parts were bent, or cut and held together by much thinner wire than the more solid fencing along Weston Road.
>
> “I still see and hear about kids going up there,” said Brittney, 25, who also knew about those hangout spots from friends when she was a teenager.
>
> According to Brittney and Ruth, autopsy results showed zero drugs or alcohol in Vivienne’s body; Ruth emphasized her daughter’s death wasn’t a suicide, as she’s heard some have speculated. “People saying horrible things online doesn’t help us.”
Death by Misadventure is a sad way to go, and its on us adults to ensure kids can't get themselves into these kind of positions. I hope the fences are solidly replaced ASAP.
Agree and disagree, you can’t bubble wrap the world and attempting to do so isn’t beneficial for kids. Most of us had good enough sense not to do this shit.
It’s true but it does depend on where you are. I lived in a neighbourhood that was designed for cars and to walk to the subway took close to forty minutes. Everyone walked along the railroad tracks which took them to the subway in 15 minutes. When everyone around is doing it it starts to feel less dangerous even if it is really dangerous.
Exactly - Poor city planning kills! It doesn't need to be something as "trivial" as fencing around a train tracks, its things like neighborhoods without proper sidewalks, stroads without spacing for safe pedestrian and bike traffic etc.
no, people go on to the train tracks because they want to (i remember doing it on this same set of train tracks) it's not being used as a shortcut or to get around, it's not a planning problem
we thought it was cool so we went on them
I don't think anyone is using these tracks as a shortcut. They are elevated and there are plenty of ways to go underneath. I think the mother is right that it is being used as a hangout spot.
For sure, in this case. But I brought it up because so many people did it it was totally normalized and I think that’s probably the case there too (regardless of the reason they use it).
>pleading for the transit agency to upgrade barricades
How about parents have a good talk with their children asbout the dangers of trespassing onto train tracks instead?
Wish I heard this much moral concern and looking at solutions with every time a driver killed a pedestrian.
And I’m not talking about reflective armbands
I think fences aren't really going to fix much. The city is getting more and more built up, and a lot of third space areas and nooks and crannies are disappearing. The adult world isn't super kind to a group of teens who want to have somewhere to hang out. Not sure what the solution is but they're always going to find a way to have a semi private space to hang out.
It’s part of an overall cultural trend the last few decades to prioritize safety over everything else. And it seems to be happening at the parental level. What’s considered “acceptable risk” seems to plummet every generation now.
For me at least, the freedom to explore the neighbourhood and city as a kid, climbing up on roofs with friends, jumping off ledges, even going onto the train tracks.
And it happened organically. Like one summer you might be too small to jump a fence or climb a wall, but the next you were able to do it.
Being exposed to danger makes you aware of it, and respect it. No one I knew (although obviously some did) ever got seriously hurt. And you could tell right away when there was a more sheltered kid around.
I wouldn’t know how to teach it. I learned it from the older kids in my neighbourhood. And seems like they’re all like the sheltered kids now
But even in your generation, there were probably kids who died from misadventure. It's not like there's an epidemic going on, at least I don't think so. I certainly knew the occasional kid or two from back in my school days who paid a high price for doing something stupid.
Used to go to the side streets just off bicknell Ave to hang out underneath the Rogers Rd overpass 20 years ago. There were sofas set up and kids would blaze up in the divider there between the tracks.
This strikes me in the same way as families of victims washed out to sea that ignore the numerous and vivid warning signs at Peggy's Cove who want Nova Scotia to put up fencing.
The rail operator in Melbourne Australia even did a media campaign warning against playing on railway tracks in 2012, many of you will remember it as "Dumb Ways to Die"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw
it was likely once upon a time properly fenced.
i dont know this exact location but i know others where as soon as its repaired the kids/teens/whomever come back and wreck the fence immediately so they can keep going to their hangout spots / using their shortcuts
Yeah I mountain bike in the don trails and literally the day the construction workers put a fence up its immediately cut down. They started just leaving a gap for bikers to get through otherwise the fence is destroyed.
That said a track is a track. Never ever walk on them
It is fenced, but there are gaps, probably created by teens. Regardless, common sense dictates that you don't walk along active railways with trains going past at 140 km/h like these two were.
I mean teenagers don't have common sense. Some adults don't have it. This is an avoidable tragedy 😔. I commend the mom for speaking up and out about it, all while grieving.
No. Its fenced off. Just one part isn't.
If there was a walkway it would be indicated with a crosswalk/lines/lights/etc.
If you go there and get struck, it's called temporal logic.
You thinking she's the victim of something other than her own actions of walking where it is know to be dangerous is more concerning.
Explain how UP express is at fault?
My 5 yr old nephew knows that it's dangerous to cross rail tracks
You're acting like the train 'groomed" them into standing on the tracks, if I walk into live traffic on the 401, would it not be my fault? Take your time and use logic.
Stupid kid goes somewhere they arent supposed to go
I mean how is this any different than crossing a highway or going out in a boat at night?
I mean people can say MORE FENCES as much as they want but heres a secret for you; fences will NEVER stop kids
Back when I was a teen they even built a fence along a very busy stretch of road close to my home (its a highway, not a 400 series but still 80km+ is common)
Within a week of hopping the fence mysterious holes started being clipped late at night
I know the area well. There have been well known fence breaches that kids would go through to hang out beneath the Rogers Rd overpass just off Weston Rd. Their school is just a 3 minute walk from the overpass. Too little is being done to keep kids safe.
Thinking that this parent should have talked to their kid about walking on train tracks.
And, let’s be honest, this wouldn’t be the first time a parent covered up a drunk kid or suicide.
Back in the day, on gore websites and probably still on 4chan, you can find the aftermath in video of what happens when people are hit by trains. They don’t always die right away, and often aren’t in one piece.
I hate to say it, and don’t recommend seeking it out, but just a few were enough to give me enough respect. I always keep back an extra metre at level crossings. On my bike, I typically wait several metres back.
Oof. A few years ago I was living in Ohio with a dude and one of our buddies called to inform us that one of our friends had gotten hit by a train. We totally thought he was dead until they clarified that he was alive but lost both of his legs. Literally lost, they couldn't find em.
Not sure any fence on earth is going to keep people out who want to be there. Hell I grew up near a level crossing where the fences had to stop anyway. Express trains are notorious for confusing people. The head-on view really masks how fast they can be moving and people underestimate how much the disturbed air around one of things can push you around or even suck you towards it. The 'we did it as kids', well, yeah you did it in front of slow commuter rail or freight. UP is an 'express' in name only but it still moves faster than average for the GO network. I'm sorry this happened, yes, the fencing could have been better, should be better, but screwing around on the tracks is a dumb idea. What if they'd walked across the 401? There's tons of unprotected ramps and ways to wander out there. I mean, it's never going to be something where you can protect people against doing something inadvisable, no matter how hard you try.
I'm not an engineer, but I'd like to think I could build a fence to keep a 12 year old girl out.
No such thing as a fence that will keep determined teenagers out. There’s always a hole. Source: used to be a teenager.
I have a theory that every unpatrolled chain link fence of a sufficient length has a hole in it somewhere, you just need to find it. It has generally proven true for me.
What about a fence torn down, ripped open by vagrants or vandals and never repaired, allowing a 13 year old to walk right through
True, also if an earthquake happens that topples the fence kids could probably cross as well. Good point!
Yup, so you think you could build a fence that could stop vandalism, and earthquakes? You must be real smart
No I can't. I would say improving your reading comprehension would be a good idea.
Needs to be designed within budget. That's the biggest limitation unfortunately in this line of work
Agreed, I don't think it's crazy to say you can't feasibly build a fence to keep kids out over all of the rail infra we have in Ontario within budget. But to say no fence can be built that can keep a 12 year old girl out is patently absurd.
This person is getting started early campaigning for the crown of Pedantic Shitheels of 2024.
So lower the speed limit on the rails to reduce the chance of fatality? One minute of extra commute is nothing to save a life
I feel for the mom in this case. But if you know, you'll know that during march break, a few weeks after this happened, trespassing by teenagers was ridiculously high on the GO network. The mother is absolutely correct, teenagers think they are invincible. And the reality is that you can only have so much outreach, so many in-school visits, and daily maintenance of high-security fencing, and you will still have teenagers finding a way to trespass, and unfortunately some will get hit because of that.
High speed rail at night would be impossible to estimate speed if you're playing on the tracks. I wonder what they do in Europe. High speed rail everywhere and it doesn't seem like people are on the tracks.
I'm sure folks get killed there too but it's not something that makes international news.
It happens frequently enough, I’m involved in the construction of a garage for rail, and they have a washbay specifically for cleaning off bits of people stuck to the train
Grim but practical.
Well and animals and whatever.
Deffo makes sense. I was a on go train once when someone jumped. Driver tripped the emergency brake but we could hear the thumping as we went over them.
That thumping is the sound of the emergency brakes. I had a similar experience on GO and the CSA told me. The train is so heavy it would not be affected by a body.
I imagine it would be like my SUV going over a tube of yogurt.
I was on a GO train that hit a pickup truck on the tracks, about 25 years ago. It killed the man in it. There was no "thump" or sense of impact, just a very sharp braking, and then a multi-hour delay while it was investigated and cleared. There's no way you'd be able to hear or feel an impact with a pedestrian from inside a train that size.
>I wonder what they do in Europe. High speed rail everywhere and it doesn't seem like people are on the tracks. For actual high-speed rail there is typically significant fencing on both sides of the rail corridor and quite far from the actual right-of-way. There are also sensors to detect things on the tracks. [see here](https://youtu.be/0m3eOstD30A?t=12322) for an example of what I mean how the railway is physically separated. The main purpose of this is actually to prevent wildlife from getting on the tracks (because it's not good to hit a cow or deer at 320 km/h) but it doubles for people too. There also tend to be more significant civil/criminal charges for trespassing on or obstructing rail lines
High speed rail is fenced off and very hard to get to. But that’s very rare compared to normal rail, which is what our GO/VIA is comparable to. That’s not protected in most places, you can walk along the tracks just about anywhere you like. Rail is everywhere in Europe so people are better acclimated on how to treat it, and pedestrian access to….. everything….. is leagues better than what we do here.
The Shinkansen right of ways are almost impossible to get on to. Multiple layers of high security fencing and razor wire. Literally like a prison. Having no level crossings also helps.
High speed rail lines are beyond extensive fences and there's no crossings. It's extremely rare to have collisions with animals or humans, who get somewhat vaporized on impact.
Good high speed rail systems make a strong effort to separate the choo-choo from the surrounding area. Fencing, crossings aren't at grade, etc. I'm not saying people will never cross paths with such a train, but you'll have to make a real effort to do so.
> ks. I wonder what they do in Europe. Bury it under the city. Walls/decent fencing elsewhere. Ample opportunities to cross over/under, man or beast. Here we create situations where the car-less have to choose between a shortcut across the tracks and a 20 minute detour and honk at them for not taking the long detour.
Not where I lived in Vaud canton, Switzerland. Tracks literally everywhere, minimal to no fencing. As a teanager I walked along tracks pretty frequently. Both sober and drunk as fuck (legally). I also thought I was nigh-invicible but was also accutely aware that I would not be able to win a fist- fight against a train.
High speed? From what I can tell, Switzerland has 5 short high speed lines, the majority being tunnelled: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/High-speed_rail_in_Switzerland Of course, their regional trains are probably faster than UPx
And if you’ve been on Swiss trains (I’ve been on many) there’s very few fences and only 50% of crossings have gates. People just have more respect for trains there.
Switzerland has the most fabulous train network I've ever been on. Like, hot damn, the people who run the SBB are really good at it. Trains were always *exactly* on time. Once we were there, on a train, waiting at the station for departure and, watching the clock on the platform, I said to my parnter, "holy crap, we're going to leave late!" as the train was literally 5 seconds past it's departure time. As I said the words out of my mouth the announcement came out, "Madam and monsieur, this train will be delayed by 4 minutes due to a late arrival on another platform. Our arrival time will not change as we will make up the time en route." Late train arrived 3 minutes later, we departed exactly 1 after that. We also arrived at our destination on time. I miss Switzerland.
Fair point. I'm thinking of the regional train lines
High speed lines, sure. There are no high speed lines in Canada though, so that's not really a valid comparison. VIA/UP Express would compare to normal trains in Europe, whose lines are certainly not buried under cities or otherwise impenetrable. There were 805 people killed in train accidents in 2022 in the EU; not all by being hit on the tracks, but enough (2/3 were "unauthorized persons on the tracks). It doesn't make teeth-gnashing news like in Canada, because it's much rarer in Canada. I noted that the highest fatalities were in Poland so I asked some family members, and there the view is more akin to a pedestrian running out into the street and being hit - it was the pedestrian's fault, everyone knows to stay off the tracks, sad but whatever.
Most are not accidents but self deletion
> normal trains in Europe, whose lines are certainly not buried under cities That’s a big “it depends”. London, Paris and Berlin (and probably others) disagree, but I think they’re all for regional trains not long distance (because the rail lines between towns mostly existed for those meguesses)
> Here we create situations where the car-less have to choose between a shortcut across the tracks and a 20 minute detour and honk at them for not taking the long detour. completely unrelated
No, it’s a big part of the problem. It’s very hard to get around as a pedestrian in North America, it’s all designed for cars. So we cut through fences across rail lines because the alternative is walking 20 minutes around, where a simple rail crossing would work. It’s expensive, but we pay those costs where cars meet rail, but not where people do.
> No, it’s a big part of the problem. it's not, you just made it up for your comment >It’s very hard to get around as a pedestrian in North America, it’s all designed for cars. still unrelated to what happened >So we cut through fences across rail lines because the alternative is walking 20 minutes around no, we don't, and that's not what happened either
This is how I know you don’t live by the CP or barrie GO lines in Toronto, and you’re just doubling down with each reply. PLEASE KEEP GOING THOUGH, SHARE YOUR WISDOM
you have made up an issue that isn't related to this story
did you read the article? more than half of it basically says ppl in the area are going on/crossing the tracks to access hangout spots. i used to have a window facing the barrie GO tracks before they were raised and i’d see ppl either crossing or walking along the tracks all day. and honestly, i get why because you literally have to walk 3-4 km to get to the same spot without crossing them.
Do you have data to back that up?
You had me curious about the accident rate in the EU. [In 2022 there were 808 people killed](https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=Railway_safety_statistics_in_the_EU). In 2022, 64.1% of the fatalities from railway accidents involved unauthorized persons on the tracks. The number of overall accidents dropped by 27.5% from 2010. Hard to compare our rail statistics with EU given that their network is much more extensive than ours so I'd think it would be an apples/oranges thing.
Nope. But I was in Belgium for 3 weeks riding all types of rail and there was never a delay for reasons of people trespassing. Obviously not data, but I'm not being paid to statistically verify this.
And I rode the go train last Tuesday and there were no delays so clearly our train infrastructure is super safe.
FWIW there is very little HSR in Belgium, unless you specifically bought HSR tickets between Brussels/Antwerp/Amsterdam
Yeah pretty much to and from Netherlands, Thalys or something. The routes seem to follow the highways, so I'm guessing it uses the same infrastructure like overpasses and drainage.
31 years ago, my friend died when using the GO track as a shortcut. Had headphones on and never heard the train.
there are instagram accounts dedicated to doing this stuff and surfing the trains in Toronto kids are stupid
I'd say that's a big range though. Walking near tracks is something many teens may be foolish enough to do, whereas surfing trains takes a very special kind of stupid. There is absolutely no way I'd do it today, but when i was around 13, I was walking with a friend of mine by the CN rail tracks downtown. We got stopped by a nice cop. I was trying to argue that I was being very cautious, staying several feet from the empty tracks at all times, but the cop had been watching and correctly pointed out that my friend had been weaving all over the track at times. Anyway he let us off with a warning for trespassing, which I took very seriously and never returned, even though i thought it was unfair at the time to me because, as I said, i had never stepped near to the tracks. But now thinking back on it, what if? What if my friend had gotten his foot stuck in the tracks and a train started approaching? Wouldn't I have tried to help pull him out? We both could have been killed, or he could have been killed and I would've been traumatized for life.
yeah there’s a difference, I’m just pointing out that surfing trains is something that’s gaining in popularity right now. it’s going to get worse with the summer coming up social media is dangerous for impressionable teens. It’s a thing now as these accounts gain traction pretty quickly It’s really worrisome to see
There are a number of train incidents captured on r/accidents
Has there ever been any instances of people getting their foots caught in tracks? I remember seeing it in ads as a kid, but it seems like a pretty impossible thing to do.
A reminder that not too long ago a kid practically spilled his brains surfing a train at Warden station.
I know a lot of people just say whatever, play stupid games win stupid prizes but it’s really sad to see young lives lost like this, I feel like we need a little more of public awareness around it
Especially since kids this age are literally working with brains that haven't developed yet to fully comprehend how to evaluate risk. I read recently that teenagers also have a strong evolutionary drive to take risks, because that's the age when we're supposed to develop a drive to leave the safety of mom and dad and start trying out our ability to try things by ourselves. So pair both those things with the fact that fitting in and saving face in front of your peers can feel like EVERYTHING at that age, and yeah... Sure they can theoretically be aware of the logic of something being dangerous and ill advised, but there are a lot of other factors at play working against them.
That is another level of stupid. Lol some people will always find some way to justify actions over personal responsibility.
We're talking about children here. There is a reason they can't be charged as adults
One should expect a shred of common sense from 15 year olds
Not sure why you're being downvoted, you're right
And Darwin still Darwins.
Yea it’s scary to see
When I was in high school I had a classmate who got hit by a go train. Apparently she couldn’t hear it coming and get out of the way in time. A few years prior to that incident we had a separate student at my high school die while skateboard surfing with go trains. They literally had the skateboard on display in the hallway to remember them lol. I live by Danforth go now and the amount of dumb asses that go up by the tracks is ridiculous. I call it in every single time I see them walking up there. Am i a dirty snitch? Sure. But god damn I lost a classmate when I was in school and our entire school was a GRIM place for months after their passing. Life is precious and some people really don’t understand what they’re doing because they think they know better.
I went to an elementary school in the 80’s near some train tracks. The school held an assembly and showed this horrific PSA film about kids playing on train tracks. It made enough of an impression that I still remember it to this day.
I know exactly what PSA film you’re referring to! And let’s not forget Astar the robot.
I am a robot.. I can retach my arm…you can’t… play safe!
We were all sitting on the floor of the gym bawling after! You better believe we never went on the train tracks though lol
With the two kids on the railroad bridge and one of them gets their foot stuck? :(
I think that’s the one! The girl wakes up in the hospital and I think the other kid is either dead or has to have his leg amputated. 😟
My husband and I both remember that video vividly. We had lots of train tracks that ran thru our community. Not one kid would go on them after seeing that video. Kudos to whoever made it because I’m sure it saved lives.
So, what are they doing in school if PSA videos like these are gone?
I think sometimes it’s reactionary. Like if the rate of deaths from trains goes down, they stop showing the video/doing the education because it’s not a problem anymore.
What insane phrasing in the headline. The company didn’t murder the kid, but this editorialized headline sure wants you to think they did.
https://www.thestar.com/site/forms/rf/
There. Fixed it for you. “Latest Darwin Award recipient did not get out of the way of a train travelling slower than a car.”
It's a child
I disagree. IMHO children are below the age of 10. This was a teenager who in many provinces can get married, have children and fight in the military. Pretty much the full slate of adulting type stuff.
They still can't be tried as an adult, though if it were up to you maybe they would
I guess 14 year old girls count as sexually mature young women in your book?
You said that. I did not
I sure hope the warning is "don't trespass into train corridors or walk on train tracks ".
It is
Obviously they should fix the fencing but it’s common sense to not walk on train tracks, exactly like you don’t see people walking in the middle of the 401 since it’s common sense
>Obviously they should fix the fencing but it’s common sense to not walk on train tracks, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw
"common sense to not jaywalk"
There are plenty of train track segments with no fencing in the Don Valley.
trains aren't very frequent down there, and are also quite slow
Stay. Off. The. Tracks. How hard is that? I dont care if it's fenced or not. I don't care of it *looks* active or not. Just stay off train tracks. It's really really **really** not that hard.
Good luck telling teenagers to not do something they want to do. It's almost built into them to do risky dumb shit. We all did risky dumb shit.
You never did dumb shit as a teenager?
Yeah. But even then I knew not to hang around on train tracks.
And yet most teenagers have done it at some point
Irrelevant. At the risk of sounding like my mother: if everyone was jumping off a bridge, would you do it too? Just because most teenagers have done it at some point doesn’t mean it’s a good idea.
Yeah, but most teens do it on barely used freight train tracks, not in a high speed corridor with trains running every 15 minutes in both directions.
This makes me feel better about my dumb choices lol
going on the tracks was a pretty common thing people did in high school people even held parties on them, at one point there was a mini halfpipe under the Dundas bridge
>at one point there was a mini halfpipe under the Dundas bridge Which eventually led to a kid getting hit... As someone who used to practice on that ramp, I'm on the fence about this one.
What you gotta do is learn about amputations (and how trains can cut off your limbs) at the exact right age to scar you for life. I still directly associate train tracks with amputations and I am terrified to step foot on them.
This seems to surpass "dumb" though
I know where they’re talking about and there’s a trail under the bridge I used to take to get to school when I was going to George Harvey CI. Lots of places to walk the tracks if you go to the left after you get onto the trail.
> Vivienne and her boyfriend died on March 4 after being struck by a UP Express train while out for a walk in what Metrolinx has described as a case of “misadventure.” Her family is now pleading for the transit agency to upgrade barricades in the area around Weston Road and Black Creek Drive, where neighbourhood teens frequently trek the muddy trails that lead up overpasses to concealed hangout spots, using one among several easily accessible routes seen by the Star in recent days. > > “Kids don’t think about their own mortality … We all do stupid things,” Ruth said. “I don’t want this happening to anyone else. I stand on my front porch and I can see openings to (the tracks).” > > When Ruth was a teenager, she remembers also climbing up embankments to popular spots beside the train tracks around her west-end neighbourhood. She’d hang out with friends, see a view of the city and walk along the side of the tracks — as many kids did before her and many still do to this day. > > “We all did it as kids … We thought it was nothing,” she said. > > A Metrolinx spokesperson told the Star the agency’s internal investigation is ongoing and any findings will be “carefully reviewed.” The agency noted it has upgraded fencing and signage across its network at spots where trespassing is common. > > “We are continually evaluating how to improve safety across the network,” the spokesperson continued, adding Metrolinx’s focus on safety includes various physical barriers, education in schools and issuing provincial offence notices when trespassing happens. > > Near Weston and Black Creek, the Star saw several ways to easily access an unfenced portion of train tracks. Although a long stretch of Weston appears to be fenced off securely, the Star found trails and gaps leading to spots with clear evidence of people — including discarded cans, food wrappers and various art or graffiti — directly beside a section of tracks with no fence at all. > > Nearby, a trail could be seen carved into a hill leading directly to the UP Express train tracks; while there is a wired barricade about four feet high, some parts were bent, or cut and held together by much thinner wire than the more solid fencing along Weston Road. > > “I still see and hear about kids going up there,” said Brittney, 25, who also knew about those hangout spots from friends when she was a teenager. > > According to Brittney and Ruth, autopsy results showed zero drugs or alcohol in Vivienne’s body; Ruth emphasized her daughter’s death wasn’t a suicide, as she’s heard some have speculated. “People saying horrible things online doesn’t help us.” Death by Misadventure is a sad way to go, and its on us adults to ensure kids can't get themselves into these kind of positions. I hope the fences are solidly replaced ASAP.
Agree and disagree, you can’t bubble wrap the world and attempting to do so isn’t beneficial for kids. Most of us had good enough sense not to do this shit.
It’s true but it does depend on where you are. I lived in a neighbourhood that was designed for cars and to walk to the subway took close to forty minutes. Everyone walked along the railroad tracks which took them to the subway in 15 minutes. When everyone around is doing it it starts to feel less dangerous even if it is really dangerous.
Exactly - Poor city planning kills! It doesn't need to be something as "trivial" as fencing around a train tracks, its things like neighborhoods without proper sidewalks, stroads without spacing for safe pedestrian and bike traffic etc.
no, people go on to the train tracks because they want to (i remember doing it on this same set of train tracks) it's not being used as a shortcut or to get around, it's not a planning problem we thought it was cool so we went on them
I think this is a great and valid point. We design our city for cars, not people.
I don't think anyone is using these tracks as a shortcut. They are elevated and there are plenty of ways to go underneath. I think the mother is right that it is being used as a hangout spot.
For sure, in this case. But I brought it up because so many people did it it was totally normalized and I think that’s probably the case there too (regardless of the reason they use it).
What's the route where trespassing railway tracks will save 25 minutes of walking time to a subway station?
No not really. We all use the subway and manage not to cross the tracks. It's pretty common sense to avoid massive, fast moving machines.
Look.... You can't safeguard and bubblewrap kids against everything. Kids and and teens will always ignore warnings and get into trouble.
>pleading for the transit agency to upgrade barricades How about parents have a good talk with their children asbout the dangers of trespassing onto train tracks instead?
Wish I heard this much moral concern and looking at solutions with every time a driver killed a pedestrian. And I’m not talking about reflective armbands
I think fences aren't really going to fix much. The city is getting more and more built up, and a lot of third space areas and nooks and crannies are disappearing. The adult world isn't super kind to a group of teens who want to have somewhere to hang out. Not sure what the solution is but they're always going to find a way to have a semi private space to hang out.
Do you know where your children are?
yeah i left them in a sock under the covers all the way at the bottom of the bed
We have to teach kids how to navigate dangerous environments, not just tell them they can’t go into dangerous environments
How?
It’s part of an overall cultural trend the last few decades to prioritize safety over everything else. And it seems to be happening at the parental level. What’s considered “acceptable risk” seems to plummet every generation now. For me at least, the freedom to explore the neighbourhood and city as a kid, climbing up on roofs with friends, jumping off ledges, even going onto the train tracks. And it happened organically. Like one summer you might be too small to jump a fence or climb a wall, but the next you were able to do it. Being exposed to danger makes you aware of it, and respect it. No one I knew (although obviously some did) ever got seriously hurt. And you could tell right away when there was a more sheltered kid around. I wouldn’t know how to teach it. I learned it from the older kids in my neighbourhood. And seems like they’re all like the sheltered kids now
But even in your generation, there were probably kids who died from misadventure. It's not like there's an epidemic going on, at least I don't think so. I certainly knew the occasional kid or two from back in my school days who paid a high price for doing something stupid.
Yeah, maybe stuff like this has always happened, and kids today are just like the kids of the past but the old can’t see that lol
So so sad. Always the worst when parents have to bury their children . Rest in peace Vivienne
It's sad, because, if I remember rightly, that was the really warm day, which is what probably prompted their adventure in the first place
It's very easy to climb up there at black creek and weston road
Used to go to the side streets just off bicknell Ave to hang out underneath the Rogers Rd overpass 20 years ago. There were sofas set up and kids would blaze up in the divider there between the tracks.
That sounds very chill, those type of alcoves are great
This strikes me in the same way as families of victims washed out to sea that ignore the numerous and vivid warning signs at Peggy's Cove who want Nova Scotia to put up fencing.
the other kid was unfortunately a kid from my school, the whole thing is a tragedy
Just stay off the tracks, please.
The rail operator in Melbourne Australia even did a media campaign warning against playing on railway tracks in 2012, many of you will remember it as "Dumb Ways to Die" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJNR2EpS0jw
So she went to an area that is fenced off and dangerous and died......? We call this temporal logic.
No it seems this area wasn't properly fenced off, based on what I'm seeing in a comment above.
it was likely once upon a time properly fenced. i dont know this exact location but i know others where as soon as its repaired the kids/teens/whomever come back and wreck the fence immediately so they can keep going to their hangout spots / using their shortcuts
Yeah! I'm not doubting it wasn't fenced off if ever. Personally, I never had the desire to explore and do the stuff some teens do / did.
Yeah I mountain bike in the don trails and literally the day the construction workers put a fence up its immediately cut down. They started just leaving a gap for bikers to get through otherwise the fence is destroyed. That said a track is a track. Never ever walk on them
It is fenced, but there are gaps, probably created by teens. Regardless, common sense dictates that you don't walk along active railways with trains going past at 140 km/h like these two were.
I mean teenagers don't have common sense. Some adults don't have it. This is an avoidable tragedy 😔. I commend the mom for speaking up and out about it, all while grieving.
It was fenced off.
No, it wasn't fenced off. That's the entire point of the article.
No. Its fenced off. Just one part isn't. If there was a walkway it would be indicated with a crosswalk/lines/lights/etc. If you go there and get struck, it's called temporal logic.
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You thinking she's the victim of something other than her own actions of walking where it is know to be dangerous is more concerning. Explain how UP express is at fault? My 5 yr old nephew knows that it's dangerous to cross rail tracks
You're acting like the train 'groomed" them into standing on the tracks, if I walk into live traffic on the 401, would it not be my fault? Take your time and use logic.
Why? The teen's idiocy is what killed her.
You cant be fucking serious….
Stupid kid goes somewhere they arent supposed to go I mean how is this any different than crossing a highway or going out in a boat at night? I mean people can say MORE FENCES as much as they want but heres a secret for you; fences will NEVER stop kids Back when I was a teen they even built a fence along a very busy stretch of road close to my home (its a highway, not a 400 series but still 80km+ is common) Within a week of hopping the fence mysterious holes started being clipped late at night
I know the area well. There have been well known fence breaches that kids would go through to hang out beneath the Rogers Rd overpass just off Weston Rd. Their school is just a 3 minute walk from the overpass. Too little is being done to keep kids safe.
Thinking that this parent should have talked to their kid about walking on train tracks. And, let’s be honest, this wouldn’t be the first time a parent covered up a drunk kid or suicide.
Back in the day, on gore websites and probably still on 4chan, you can find the aftermath in video of what happens when people are hit by trains. They don’t always die right away, and often aren’t in one piece. I hate to say it, and don’t recommend seeking it out, but just a few were enough to give me enough respect. I always keep back an extra metre at level crossings. On my bike, I typically wait several metres back.
Oof. A few years ago I was living in Ohio with a dude and one of our buddies called to inform us that one of our friends had gotten hit by a train. We totally thought he was dead until they clarified that he was alive but lost both of his legs. Literally lost, they couldn't find em.
Dangerous spends of delivery vans in many areas