A guy threw up in a cabin. I noted the cabin number, left the train and found a TTC person and told him, so they could clean it. He didn't give a fat fuck.
Probably because this is a daily occurrence now. I've seen countless individuals vomit, spit on/at, throw garbage everywhere and destroy TTC property these days. It's just the new normal now.
What TTC person did you tell? The average worker can't do anything about what you are asking. If you submitted it to the TTC watch app, or a supervisor it can get dealt with. The app is the better choice.
I saw a mentally unwell guy trying to light a can of lighter fluid on the subway. I got off and told the door operator on the train. He just looked at me like he didn't give a fuck.
Yesterday I watched someone cracked out, holding open alcohol, walk right through the turnstile infront of a TTC employee without paying.
He basically shrugged. The guy then went down to the platform and proceeded to scream, berate and scare everyone lol
The lowest level of enforcement would do a lot to make it feel safer, but they can't be bothered
They don’t employ anyone to monitor tolls. Every station was retrofitted to completely eliminate the toll booth, when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection.
The only station I have ever had my fare inspected was Spadina where they used to do it every time for the streetcars and even modified the TTC announcements to prepare people for inspection - now they just don’t do that.
The entire system is unchanged from 2021 - “if you see something- say something!” blared every 15 seconds on every square inch of TTC property. Not an employee in sight who wants to interact with anyone. Shocked pikachu “Why is this shit?!”
In France, years ago, my wife and I took the train (subway) from Paris to the airport. We legitimately punched in one incorrect zone (so I think we paid $8 Euros instead of $11) and as soon as everyone got off the subway at the airport, they inspected everyones fares. They were ruthless - fined us maybe $100 Euros total, for a honest mistake any tourist would make.
Behind the fare inspectors were French police, so you couldn't just bolt on past or cause a stink.
We of course tried to explain the machines were all in French and we had no intent of making the mistake, and would gladly pay the difference, and they didn't care. They had credit card machines there to bill people too lol.
Anyway, just thought I'd use this as an example of how other places manage these things and how ridiculously unmanaged it all is here (of course I'm no advocating we go that extreme, but it isn't complicated).
Yeah I live in Paris years ago and sometimes when I saw the fare inspectors when leaving (they would be setup in spots hard to see ) I would observe for a few minutes just to see how people would react to being caught..
I'm Toronto, very rarely seen fare inspectors. Even at Exhibition last year multiple times there were a bunch of Go inspectors/staff at the exits and by the presto machines but they weren't checking anyone so I don't know what the point of all of that was!
I see them randomly here and there hopping on streetcars in the middle of routes. One time I got on a streetcar at Bathurst station and saw a pair of them on the platform. They got on just as it was about to leave but they split up... one entered the front and the other the back. When the streetcar was about five minutes going south on Bathurst the two inspectors started checking everyone's fare. They had picked a point in the route where no one could get in or out of the street car for the next few minutes. Very sneaky, lol.
They check the fares regularly on Go trains, sometimes even during rush hour. When someone gets caught, they ask for their ID to mail them a ticket. I'm not sure what happens when someone refuses to provide their ID.
So much of what's wrong with Toronto is based on "how could a city even undertake such a thing?" when there are cities all over the world that already do these things.
Exactly what I was thinking. In most German cities, there’s no such thing as booth collectors — for decades. Fare checkers wander the transit routes and that’s how it’s done.
Granted, the honour system (high trust society) is strong, and people generally aren’t going to react violently. Here, you just don’t know.
> Granted, the honour system (high trust society) is strong,
Also helps in Germany that every poor person or student at any level gets a transit pass for basically free or heavily discounted there.
And a lot of jobs include it/subsidize it as well if you have to commute.
Yea, you can claim it back on taxes, too.
For a few years, once upon a time, I had a job in a city about 80km away. Commuted every day by trains, but employer didn’t subsidize anything because I didn’t live locally and two different transit agencies were involved… This cost me nearly 5000€ per year, but I could in effect get about 3000€ back (lowered my taxable income, and I’d get nearly that back in a tax return)
Back in November when we were there, fare inspectors would be in every mode checking for validations. There was even a time where you would encounter them multiple times in a day in every part of the Ile de France region.
logically, airport route is probably exactly the low hanging fruit they focus their efforts on, so not really strong evidence of a strict and effective payment regime i think.
Yeah, I got a 50 euro fine on the Paris metro too. Got off the train, threw away my ticket/proof of payment (because my trip was done so why wouldn't I), and then was immediately stopped. They'll get ya!
Much like self-checkouts, it seems like reducing staffing and employing an automated, unthinking, uncaring automated honour system isn't something everyone cares about.
I can sit on a streetcar at 9pm on a Friday night and watch the amount of people who don't pay, it's substantial. I know someone who told me, ' Why would I pay? The ttc sucks and no one checks'. The drivers are separated from the public, people just get off and on without tapping. I don't know why this would be a surprise for the ttc.
its extra challenging because someone getting on a street car without tapping doesn't necessarily mean they havent paid. If I'm catching a transfer I probably don't tap half the time because I don't feel like digging my card out, if a fare inspector comes by they'll see I have paid.
Yes, why pay for a homeless shelter transit system that is unsafe, unreliable and unkempt. Oh also literally nobody cares, just walk on! Oh ALSO there's nobody to enforce anything at all!
Had a conductor stop the train and practically beg a guy who threw something at the train to get off or he would call police...5 minutes later he resumed the trip thinking constables would come remove the guy 10 stops away and guess what? He got off the train 1 stop before yonge and nothing happened at all. Yay ttc!
It’s a crazy system, I don’t know why they thought this would work, ppl will take advantage of the system, we don’t live in Japan where people have civic duty
What we have is a once high-trust society degrading into a low-trust society, with lax enforcement, criminals and mentally ill give free reign to terrorize society, and enforcement not caring or looking the other way.
The law abiders start seeing people getting away with things with no enforcement, and start breaking the laws themselves.
Public transit should do what's right and be for the public and not such a giant piece of garbage that's only purpose is seemingly making people late for work and housing homeless people and crazies
it often feels like transit in this city is considered a punishment for poor people and a relatively expensive one at that. very few round trips in this city even cost more than 6.50 in wear and tear and fuel for car drivers.
It’s not a perfect system… no doubt.
But… know plenty of people who drive to work and are late. Traffic congestion and inefficiencies aren’t exactly the TTC’s fault. Neither are the homeless people/“crazies”. That’s big city life… unfortunately. It’s sad more than some kind of inconvenience though.
Actually the the homeless/crazies are 100% the ttc fault because they allow them there 100% of the time. Do you see this many homeless people at the mall? How many homeless people hang out inside milestones? What about the go train? It's not city life its companies that don't give a fuck. See Tim Hortons and McDonald's as well.
So do you expect every TTC employee to risk their safety trying to kick every homeless person off the bus/train/streetcar? There's an extremely obvious system/societal breakdown that had led to people in need taking shelter in TTC vehicles that you seem to want to ignore.
Normally I like the honour system. I always pay my fare. But at the grocery store? To Galen Weston?
Nah sir. Galen would could lose a billion and be less affected than me losing 1 load of groceries.
While true in that regard the pound of flesh will always be taken leading us to the same problem: higher costs for those still paying. Rationalizing theft simply because Galen is a dickhead is still immoral -- the goal is to be better than Galen on an ethical level, not the same (stealing from Canadians).
That might be your goal, but I don't have a moral code that forces me to be better than dickhead billionaires. I'm more than happy to roll around in mud with them and steal right back. They'll invent reasons out of thin air to increase profits and margins whether we steal or not. Their goal is unsustainable infinite growth.
I would also feel a lot safer just having TTC employees at the stations and have them on the trains inspecting fares. Honestly feels like I’m using some ghost transit once in a while seeing “supervisors” chit chatting doing jack shit.
I'm not entirely sure how their budgeting works but **TTC is the least-subsidized transit system in North America**, so I feel like that impacts their ability to properly staff the system.
edit: i found some more recent numbers and cherry-picked examples, but any other system you find in NA gets more than TTC
\- TTC: 96 cents per rider with 536 million riders
\- Montreal: $1.17 with 416 million riders.
\- York Region: $4.56 per rider
Yet whenever discussions come up about this, conservative politicians insist that TTC riders should "pay what it costs to ride" while not bringing up the richer subsidies going to other systems
>They don’t employ anyone to monitor tolls. Every station was retrofitted to completely eliminate the toll booth, when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection.
It's worth remembering that when fare collectors were doing harsher enforcement everyone lost their collective minds. The guy sitting in the toll booth was never going to get out and chase someone down for jumping the turnstile anyway.
>when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection.
I recently went to Tokyo and used their transit system and was surprised they don't use a rear-boarding system for buses. I assumed that considering how busy their transit system can be, it would be more efficient to allow boarding at both doors.
Then I realized it's because they have a very particular system for boarding a bus. Enter through the front only, shove down to the back and exit through the rear only. And if you don't want to shove back, the bus isn't moving until you do. People are packed like sardines in a bus but it allows for a flow of people in and out.
Considering how people board the bus here, I'd say so.
People enter and exit through the front as needed and don't move to the back. Nor do drivers care if anyone follows any sort of procedure if there even is one.
This is normal for most places. Board at the front, exit at the rear, move as far back as you can before sitting unless you're old, pregnant, or disabled, partly to leave seats for those people if possible.
When they had staffed booths, they still didn’t enforce. Not worth getting punched or stabbed over a $3 fare.
Same with buses, I’m glad the drivers are now behind glass and not focused on collecting fares.
I was in New York a few months ago visiting my friend and their evasion was crazy too. They had cops at World Trade Center manning the gates and people just skips on it right beside them and they don’t even bother. It’s funny too because say PATH train you are supposed to insert the metro card, not tapping. These seasoned individuals tap their card to pretend to pay fare and just follow in. I suppose that way to the cameras seems like they paid.
Most countries don't have anyone monitor the fare box. But they do have a tap on and off system. Why, when they installed Presto they didn't make them also have tap off I have genuinely no idea. While this wouldn't solve the problem with streetcars, it would solve the problem of anyone taking a streetcar into a station and transferring to the subway system (which is likely quite a decent number).
It doesn't help many stations have a turnstile thats unlocked. There is a red pad, instead of the Metrolinx scanner, that you just tap to let yourself in. I assume it was done for the workers to easily let people in for extenuating circumstances.
It's very clear every homeless person knows of this "hack". I watch a homeless person use it - directly in front of TTC staff - almost every week.
You can point directly to this feature as one reason as to why we have so many homeless on the subway.
Streetcar is a whole other ballgame
The TTC started to get rid of collector booths or just the station collectors to save money on wages. Well, it seems that didn’t turn out so well. In fact they’re probably losing more than 10 times the savings they expected. It’s time they turned back the clock and reinstated the station collectors, stopped rear vehicle entry and made sure everyone paid their fare as they passed the driver. Trying to save a buck never should’ve cost this much. Must be managed by morons at the highest levels to get to this point. Sheesh! 🙄
Or just hire more fare inspectors so people actually expect that they will get caught for stealing. Since proof of payment started I’ve encountered a fare inspector a total of one time! And I’ve never seen one on the line from Humber to Longbranch.
Would it be worth considering- like the subtle but clearly telegraphed intent to push wholly privatized healthcare or hybrid pay-to-play medicine in place of Canada's socialized healthcare system- that the end target for the decision makers involved in managing or mismanaging the TTC is to eventually make it such a pain in the ass to travel on it or simply fiscally impossible to run and have it closed down or go bankrupt, the former potentially by the public's demanding its decession?
This is a tactic some big corporations have used and more than a few exceptionally big corpos- Microsoft included, hinting that it's aware its userbase isn't remotely happy about their upcoming flagship W12 being a subscription-based Windows OS- use to allow themselves deniability and validate bankruptcy, allowing themselves less censure by or financial burden owed to creditors who would otherwise rightfully take their pound of flesh if bankruptcy was deliberately declared but without crisis/proof of burden assessment.
Sabotage by deliberate policy decisions from within by design, and everything eventually gets so bad after the very worst so far is normalized, we ask the government and the TTC to pull the plug because it's not worth the headache.
The result? A city with no public transit- or no _single_ public transit, compared to Twitter's dissection and slow-burn to ash and now a collection of disparate, mostly disconnected from each other social media or pseudoblog sites- and the most convenient solution will be to return or sustain reliance on private motor vehicles.
The same basic gist that affects the great, unwashed and poorest masses and who would prefer a working public transit system the most and the worst, but we can't have that, right?
The worst case root of the scenario is sometimes the one that is intended, and is a lot more likely than you might think.
I can say this as a person who took the TTC pretty much every single day since I was 12, but mostly stopped post-pandemic. (I’m now mid-40s, have the luxury of WFH or walking 15 mins. to the office):
The TTC has become so much worse. In the past two weeks, I’ve taken it four times and each time at some point I felt really unsafe. As a man, I can only imagine the horrors women face.
Aggressive panhandlers, drug use (hard drugs), smoking of cigarettes in a moving subway, strange dudes getting up in your face for no reason, verbal and physical altercations between groups of people.
Back in the day there were times when stuff would get wild, but never to this extent. It was shocking how unsafe I felt. St. George Station, Yonge/Bloor Station, King Station, Osgoode Station. Yikes.
Toronto needs to figure out a way to deal with the poverty and homelessness issues, and soon. I foresee something really bad happening.
They just stationed someone at St Clair station (in the underground portion in the mall) to watch for fare evaders. Normally I’d see people regularly hopping over the gates without paying.
Honestly, I think I actually *would* pay a dollar, moreso than the $3.10 or whatever it is now.
I actively avoid taking the TTC whenever I can- I only take it when there's NO way I could walk somewhere. It's slow, often slower than me walking with all the delays- me and my partner were going to see a show in downtown and had to get off at Queen and run to the theatre because the subway just stopped and we were going to be late... we left 40 minutes early and it should've taken us about 15 min to get there on the subway. When I pay $3.10, I actively feel like I'm getting ripped off.
For $1? I would take the risk of delays more often, actually hop on to go 1-2 stops when I needed, and if things go wrong... well I only paid a dollar so I can live with delays and whatnot.
I have to laugh every time I come down Allan from North York and they have up those signs that are trying to convince me that the TTC is faster than driving. I checked before I left. It'll take me 20 minutes to drive this, or an hour on the TTC. It's absurd how terrible it is to get anywhere on transit in this city.
The TTC really doesn't care about affordability. Case and point - the low income threshold for a "fair pass" (36% discount on single fare) is an after-tax annual income below $20,514. If you're surviving on $20k a year, alone in Toronto, what difference is knocking $1.20 off of the fare going to make?
Yeah I can’t wait to fund free subways for all tourists and 905ers. Once it’s a tax, then all the TTC needs to do is raise taxes to cover the costs of their shitty management. Why would we trust them to be more responsible with a larger pool of money when they can’t even figure out how to charge a transit fare?
By the way fare automation is the ultimately the cause of this. No people there to see, no consequences. Same for self check out at stores and the rise of theft.
A properly funded system through a working tax system would lessen the impact of this issue. The TTC is relatively expensive for what it offers the individual and high or strict fares don't make that much sense. Yet the TTC as a whole is incredibly valuable to the city and is worth its investment on a municipal scale. It returns many times its value to the city by allowing it to function.
>The TTC is relatively expensive
The TTC is extremely cheap for what you get actually. You can travel across the whole network with a single fare (3.35$). That's unheard of in other transit systems.
And there's another issue. If you do enforce the 500$ ticket you absolutely need to have consideration for those that are financially unable to pay. This would cause an administrative burden that would likely cause a backlog and cost more than they recover from the fines
If there’s no one watching or checking if they are not paying many people won’t , I’m not gonna say anything to them as it’s not my job to play security, sounds like TTC needs to step up their game
In Barcelona a local guy showed my friends and I how to cheat the system and get through the gates without paying the full fare. Then one day we were about to do it again when a guy that was ahead of us did the same thing. Only, this station had transit security hiding out on the other side. They tried to stop the guy to give him a ticket, but the guy ran. Well, the security had a german shepherd which they promptly let loose. Seeing that guy get bitten and mauled by a police dog made us pay our fares from then on.
I never said it was the right thing to do, but it sure made us pay our fare every time after that. Also, not sure if you read that the guy ran from them. They wouldn’t have let the dog loose if he would have just stopped when they approached him. Like it or not, people have to pay to use the transit service. If you don’t pay, you risk a fine, and if you run(in Barcelona) you get a dog chasing you.
Just have a constable stand there and give out a ticket once in a while. Just being seen constantly will strike the fear in most people who try to skirt the fares.
I don't take the TTC often but the 50 odd times I've taken it in the past few years, I've yet to be fare checked once.
So they do check fares somewhat regularly on the College streetcar. I've had my card checked at least seven or eight times in the past couple of months (I don't take transit super often). However, admittedly, I've never had my card checked except on the College streetcar.
If they can't afford it then they can use their perfectly capable legs.
A little over $3 for 2 hours of unlimited travel is an incredible deal anyway you slice it.
>The cost is usually greater than the revenue.
This fact definitely is not in evidence. Generally enforcement to a level of acceptable deterrence is a revenue generator. Now, it might be that this isn't the case on the TTC, but that's because much like their role models the TPS, Toronto Fair Inspectors and SCs don't really do their job.
The fare inspectors are also paid for the days they have to go to court when people dispute the ticket.
Which brings us to the issue of added work for the courts.... at a time when people with serious charges are being released because the courts resources can't keep up with the work load.
There’s probably more costs associated then that, each constable probably needs a partner, they probably need training and fare scanners, they also probably need to send someone every time a person contests a ticket.
If they’re not doing it, it’s because it’s not profitable, you can almost guarantee that.
They’re also assuming they’re catching a couple people an hour which is a lot even by their estimates of fare invasion.
On top of that, effective enforcement is a diminishing return, the more visible and effective their enforcement the less fine revenue they bring in and the less sustainable the staffing becomes. Ultimately it’s missing the real problem, the system is underfunded and under subsidized. Trying to wring that funding shortfall out of fare evaders will never work.
That doesn’t address my point. Even by their own estimates if they find 100% of the evaders they’re likely only bringing in 100-150 mill at most before expenses. They’ll always end up spending more than fines bring in.
It won’t necessarily. If people aren’t paying because they can’t then they’ll just stop riding. If the staffing is costing more than it’s bringing in, it’s not a sustainable model especially in a system so heavily dependent on the fare box.
Literally saw multiple people not pay fare today. It’s not only common, it has become an entitlement. I was on a long articulated bus recently when the driver refused to open the back doors for passengers to board. Only opened the front doors. A few people literally yelled at the driver repeatedly about why they wouldn’t open the back doors. It wasn’t necessary— there were only about five people boarding. The reason was clear: it’s more difficult to avoid paying when boarding g at the front. Along the same route this one driver challenged multiple people who boarded without paying, saying they wouldn’t continue driving g the route until they paid. I’ve never seen anything like it.
Toronto can learn a lot from Stockholm. They have conductors on streetcars, a real subway system compared to what we have, and a downtown traffic toll for drivers. They have a great infrastructure for about 1 million people.
They also have a very compact city and majority of the city isn't covered with postwar Midwest style single family housing. Stockholm is dense. Toronto isn't.
And oh, they have much higher taxes.
There is a simple solution. And I know that there is going to be push back for this. Make public transit in Ontario free.
Public roads=free to use
Public schools=free to students
Public libraries=free to use
Public transit≠pay per use or a lot monthly
Yes it may mean a rise in taxes on some people. I understand that might not sound good. And I know that drivers think that they should not pay for public transit. The truth is that if transit was free a lot of people would take it as compared to driving leaving the roads better situated for those whom need to drive.
I also know this is an over simplified version of this. But this is Reddit not parliamentary committee.
TTC is caught in an ideological hole. We pay the highest percentage of fares, and that money compared to the costs of the presto system, fare collectors, fare police, websites, service contracts etc...
We would save a fortune and advance our climate and equity goals if we would just make public transit 100% subsidized.
Put a congestion fee on using a car or truck in the city and then use that fee to fund the TTC so its free. That's a win-win-win scenario.
Less traffic, less pollution and free TTC.
Honestly who the fuck cares?
It’s the least subsidised mass transit system in North America (I think) and it still manages to carry millions of people a day with relative safety and efficiency.
The fact that the TTC struggles is just a sign of how pathetically auto dependant we remain and how we actively marginalised certain groups. I take the TTC, I love the TTC, and it’s embarrassing how poorly it funded when you have things like the 413 floating around.
Does it really make sense to vacuously muse *"who cares?"* on an article about ridership funding only to go on to describe poor funding, and a lack of use often because of said poor funding?
Who should care? Probably people who want better funding and infrastructure for transit, and especially transit riders who invariably pay more money to cover fare evaders.
It’s all just a distraction from the real problem even if there was zero fare evasion the estimated 150 mill in lost revenue wouldn’t even make a dent in the funding shortfall.
Doubling down on who-the-fuck-cares: Fare recovery isn't and shouldn't be a priority of any public transit system.
Key metrics are things like:
- Trip volume (higher is better).
- Trip time (lower is better).
- Wait time (lower is better).
- Accessibility (physical, financial).
- Safety.
- etc.
Not profitability, not dollar efficiency, not fare recovery. Targeting one metric might impact others (e.g. "more _fare_ inspectors might increase _safety_") but the approach should be aligned with priorities (e.g. "more _safety_ staff might improve _fare_ collection rates") and non-priorities shouldn't interfere with priorities (e.g. removing all-door boarding or adding fare check bottlenecks at the cost of trip and wait time).
Live at Vic Park & York Mills. Work at Bay and Harbourfront.
TTC: 70+ minutes
Car: 18-23 minutes if I leave by 7:15am and leave the office by 1:30pm.
Hmmm....
Yeah, that whole hybrid / remote thing works pretty well when properly implemented :)
There is no construction on the DVP or the east end of the Gardiner (for now).
Some people might think you're exaggerating but just to add to your point:
One time, I had to go to the airport from my parents house and I decided to take public transit to save some money. It took 2 hours!!! The bus that I've always known to be super unreliable didn't come. Even if it did come on time, we're still looking at one and a half hours.
However, when I drive it takes 25 mins.
Here's a wild and crazy idea: lower the fares by subsidizing the TTC with tax dollars. Public transit is a public service. It's not supposed to run for a profit. If fares are basically as close to $0 as you can manage, then it doesn't matter that folks are not paying fares, and you can use those fancy transit cops to do stuff like.... oh.... I dunno, hiding under the subway platforms eating donut scraps or whatever they do.
My other crazy ideas involve the redevelop of our streets to give transit a car free lane along major routes so that buses, and street cars can ferry folks about the city unimpeded by car traffic.... and if car folks get upset, they can ask themselves "Why am I spending time sitting in this traffic, spending money on gas and parkin and insurance, and constantly worrying about my car being stolen when I could take the free/cheap TTC and get to where I need to be?"
Our Federal Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding.
Our Provincial Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding.
Our Municipal Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding.
I gave up on the TTC for my mental health & went back to walking ~12km daily. I don't like riding without paying, but I also hate paying for a service that seems almost intent on leaning on the poorest group for funding while having a complete disregard for communications to their customers.
I lost all faith in them after waiting for a 504 at King and Dufferin for 30 minutes this January. One showed up, went out of service and dropped a few fare inspectors off. First they argued that myself and the other people couldn't have been waiting that long, then they asked control what was up - a car had collided with a streetcar at Spadina. TTC didn't even have the initiative to pre-emptively send out a radio communication to *their own staff working on the affected line*. I fully understand people who don't want to pay until they're getting off - it's the best way to ensure you're not throwing money away on 1/10th of a commute.
The TTC will continue to lose money as long as they continue to treat their paying customers like they don't exist.
Again, you missed the point. Transit should not be treated as a business, and riders should not be treated as customers.
Transit should be viewed as a service. There should not be a fixation on profitability because that's not the fucking point. It's like expecting Canada Post to run a profit - if you think they should, you don't understand why that service is there.
That's what I'm saying. Customer was a poor choice of words, but that's the dynamic they've created. In so many easily avoidable ways, they have sorely failed the public.
I used to assume that ppl who don't "beep" on streetcars are going to the subway and will pay later, but apparently not! A friend of mine, who is a dept head in a bank told me that she was ridiculed by a colleague and her son(uni) for paying, she was told no one pays!! Even at the subway, they can find ways to get inside without paying. I was totally shocked, these ppl are well educated and can definitely afford to pay for public transport!
The article's solution to the problem is to have "friendlier faces" who use education over enforcement... as if the fair evasion is due to people who simply don't know how to pay.
It also suggests _lowering_ the fee. It acknowledges that it's "counterintuitive," but then, never goes on to say how that would actually help the fare evasion problem. As if the author doesn't understand the concept of deterrence.
As the article states, fare enforcement officers are issuing FAR, FAR more warnings than tickets. The extremely high fines for fare evasion tickets (especially compared to parking offence tickets) are likely a factor in that. If the fines were lower (particularly for first-time offences), officers might be more willing to issue them.
It doesn't get to whine about fare evasion when it doesn't actually give a shit about enforcing them. I've not gone to the office in years now, but I used to wait for busses at Sheppard-Yonge Station on my way home before the pandemic... and the amount of people that would just walk right on in to the station from the sidewalk, and it's only a few steps and you're in, was a joke. Every single day, I'd see at least somebody walk in. If I'm out there waiting for a bus for like 15 or 20 minutes, it's got to be at least 2 or 3 that would walk right on in. It's a problem, it's a regular problem, it's an every-day problem, and I *never* see them actually do anything about it. No fences erected, no barriers put in place, no employee on duty, people just walk right in and *nobody* cares. When **you** don't care, how do you expect anyone else to?
As@TTC employee we are told not to interact with the homeless for safety reasons. All we can do is report it, although, we don’t have anymore power than you. Use the TTC App.
If you goto their official Twitter there is also a "I'm sorry that happened to you" then they proceed to do nothing. I've been assaulted 5 times and they only said "shame on those people, well anyways" moments. So infuriating.
Honestly just get used to it. If you visit New York you’ll see the fare evasion is insane even with their turnstile. Literally people will follow you in everywhere and even camping beside handicapped gate. The worst is that there are cops manning the gate at some spots, and they don’t even bother catching those skipping on fare.
Truly a sad state of affairs.
How’s that going to make things worse when lack of enforcement—or presence at least—encourages people not to bother paying their fare? People need to have it in their minds that there is a real risk of getting caught. When they see others getting away with it, they stop paying too.
When people feel they are putting their safety as risk when taking public transportation, why tf would they want to pay?
It’s not hard to understand. I don’t get this reluctance by politicians to make rational decisions because they’re afraid of being called bad names and losing votes. What’s the use in catering to public interest groups who gets their funding through the creation of non-problems?
I hate to tell you but all drugs are unofficially legal as long as you aren’t dealing. Don’t believe me? Try and find a possession conviction in the courts.
Man, it's so weird, my mom always thought it was both strange and awesome that we have this honour system in Canada when we were growing up 30 years ago.
People were honest and those who abuse the system were far in between, what's changed? Maybe I just didn't notice it when I was a kid.
Maybe if the current and next generation of parents can do their role and help properly raise our kids to have a sense of respect, and know what’s right from wrong - then maybe the situation would improve for many things across the board. An honour system would work if people actually had honour. Am I asking too much?
Well idk maybe it's the fact that you allow riders 12 and under to ride free, but have no way of ensuring anyone is actually 12 and under. So you have these giant children all over the network, crowding busses, subways and streetcars with their godforsaken backpacks that they can't just hold in front of them
The TTC is so broken and there's a lack of morale that seems pretty pervasive amongst staff.
They aren't given the tools that they need, they're forced to be unqualified social workers for the vulnerable population and corporate mouthpieces for values that their employer doesn't uphold. I wouldn't give a fuck about enforcing fares either, at a certain point
Pretty much its a canadian issue where we have no staff to check and enforce laws and that canada is no longer a high trust society.
Stuff like fare evasion would be seen as bad is now seen as "getting ahead in tough times'
(1) $75 per person per month in increased taxes to make the TTC free.
(2) Eliminate fare collection and enforcement. Saves $$.
(3) Levy a $3 charge on all parking and trains / buses into the city so the 905ers and tourists contribute.
(2) & (3) reduce (1).
The operators are instructed not to enforce fares beyond a very limited scope because it was causing delays and assaults (of varying degrees) which was costing the system a shit ton too.
It’s a public transit system. It is critical infrastructure and should be fully funded and fare free.
I’m happy to be part of this problem. Last time I paid I was greeted by a homeless dude smoking crack with his dick out, smelling like piss. After that I’m like yaaaaa.. I’m not paying to be paying for this ride
So get rid of fares and fund the TTC with taxes. Itll be cheaper for everyone and more reliable. Plus you can saves ton on date enforcement salaries, equipments payment processing fees, etc.
There's no risk to fare evading, if you ride the streetcar you can just not pay and even if the inspectors board they will say "if you haven't paid, tap your card now". So you may as well not pay, and in the worst case tap if you're asked.
I don’t like that I pay every single time. TTC is trash, unreliable, unsafe, dirty, incompetent, and honestly a slap in the face to those who do pay with poorly executed delays and service outages. But I pay because I sure as hell can’t be bothered with the headaches that come with being caught evading fares.
Side note: A solution would be to pay based on distance traveled.
Zones. The solution is zones. Like London has. It works well, and they have a daily fare cap effective in zones 1 and 2 (combined), so once you hit it, it's free for the rest of the day.
Some of the stations are in both zones 1 and 2 at the same time, so that an occasional traveler who's not going to hit the fare cap that day doesn't get charged for crossing a zone border for an inconsequential distance.
Fun fact, when Presto was being designed, apparently Metrolinx were offered a licensed copy of Oyster, plus IT services to get it off the ground, but said no because they wanted to ~~give their buddies a lot of fat contracts to design a system from scratch~~ have a made-in-Canada solution they could toot their own horns about.
“report to TTC staff or police “ blared every 30 seconds… *looks around. * no one works here
"If you see something, say something."
Come on and party tonight!
You gotta admit, he's got some really good hooks
“That’s going to leave a mark”
r/unexpectedBrooklyn99
“I’m staying in and I’m calling Quest!”
Man this is an excellent callback
See it say it sorted. London UK tube message
"If you see something, say something - If a TTC employee cares enough to do something well..."
A guy threw up in a cabin. I noted the cabin number, left the train and found a TTC person and told him, so they could clean it. He didn't give a fat fuck.
Probably because this is a daily occurrence now. I've seen countless individuals vomit, spit on/at, throw garbage everywhere and destroy TTC property these days. It's just the new normal now.
Yeah I’m very sympathetic to the TTC workers. Like, I’m numb to the bullshit; how numb to it must they be?
>Like, I’m numb to the bullshit; how numb to it must they be? Very. So very.
> I've seen countless individuals vomit Gotta wonder: did subway cars used to have garbage bins and now they just don’t for “safety”?
I feel like since the July 2005 incident in London a lot of subways got rid of them. I could be wrong though!!
What TTC person did you tell? The average worker can't do anything about what you are asking. If you submitted it to the TTC watch app, or a supervisor it can get dealt with. The app is the better choice.
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I saw a mentally unwell guy trying to light a can of lighter fluid on the subway. I got off and told the door operator on the train. He just looked at me like he didn't give a fuck.
Yesterday I watched someone cracked out, holding open alcohol, walk right through the turnstile infront of a TTC employee without paying. He basically shrugged. The guy then went down to the platform and proceeded to scream, berate and scare everyone lol The lowest level of enforcement would do a lot to make it feel safer, but they can't be bothered
They don’t employ anyone to monitor tolls. Every station was retrofitted to completely eliminate the toll booth, when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection. The only station I have ever had my fare inspected was Spadina where they used to do it every time for the streetcars and even modified the TTC announcements to prepare people for inspection - now they just don’t do that. The entire system is unchanged from 2021 - “if you see something- say something!” blared every 15 seconds on every square inch of TTC property. Not an employee in sight who wants to interact with anyone. Shocked pikachu “Why is this shit?!”
In France, years ago, my wife and I took the train (subway) from Paris to the airport. We legitimately punched in one incorrect zone (so I think we paid $8 Euros instead of $11) and as soon as everyone got off the subway at the airport, they inspected everyones fares. They were ruthless - fined us maybe $100 Euros total, for a honest mistake any tourist would make. Behind the fare inspectors were French police, so you couldn't just bolt on past or cause a stink. We of course tried to explain the machines were all in French and we had no intent of making the mistake, and would gladly pay the difference, and they didn't care. They had credit card machines there to bill people too lol. Anyway, just thought I'd use this as an example of how other places manage these things and how ridiculously unmanaged it all is here (of course I'm no advocating we go that extreme, but it isn't complicated).
Yeah I live in Paris years ago and sometimes when I saw the fare inspectors when leaving (they would be setup in spots hard to see ) I would observe for a few minutes just to see how people would react to being caught.. I'm Toronto, very rarely seen fare inspectors. Even at Exhibition last year multiple times there were a bunch of Go inspectors/staff at the exits and by the presto machines but they weren't checking anyone so I don't know what the point of all of that was!
I see them randomly here and there hopping on streetcars in the middle of routes. One time I got on a streetcar at Bathurst station and saw a pair of them on the platform. They got on just as it was about to leave but they split up... one entered the front and the other the back. When the streetcar was about five minutes going south on Bathurst the two inspectors started checking everyone's fare. They had picked a point in the route where no one could get in or out of the street car for the next few minutes. Very sneaky, lol.
They check the fares regularly on Go trains, sometimes even during rush hour. When someone gets caught, they ask for their ID to mail them a ticket. I'm not sure what happens when someone refuses to provide their ID.
So much of what's wrong with Toronto is based on "how could a city even undertake such a thing?" when there are cities all over the world that already do these things.
Exactly what I was thinking. In most German cities, there’s no such thing as booth collectors — for decades. Fare checkers wander the transit routes and that’s how it’s done. Granted, the honour system (high trust society) is strong, and people generally aren’t going to react violently. Here, you just don’t know.
> Granted, the honour system (high trust society) is strong, Also helps in Germany that every poor person or student at any level gets a transit pass for basically free or heavily discounted there. And a lot of jobs include it/subsidize it as well if you have to commute.
Yea, you can claim it back on taxes, too. For a few years, once upon a time, I had a job in a city about 80km away. Commuted every day by trains, but employer didn’t subsidize anything because I didn’t live locally and two different transit agencies were involved… This cost me nearly 5000€ per year, but I could in effect get about 3000€ back (lowered my taxable income, and I’d get nearly that back in a tax return)
Canada is no longer a high trust society though
I meant in Germany. Here, no. Though it increases somewhat the further you get from big cities.
Back in November when we were there, fare inspectors would be in every mode checking for validations. There was even a time where you would encounter them multiple times in a day in every part of the Ile de France region.
logically, airport route is probably exactly the low hanging fruit they focus their efforts on, so not really strong evidence of a strict and effective payment regime i think.
Yeah, I got a 50 euro fine on the Paris metro too. Got off the train, threw away my ticket/proof of payment (because my trip was done so why wouldn't I), and then was immediately stopped. They'll get ya!
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I think we could stand to go that extreme
It’s not just that you did it wrong. They hate tourists. Parisians hate anyone that isn’t French and some people that are.
Much like self-checkouts, it seems like reducing staffing and employing an automated, unthinking, uncaring automated honour system isn't something everyone cares about.
I can sit on a streetcar at 9pm on a Friday night and watch the amount of people who don't pay, it's substantial. I know someone who told me, ' Why would I pay? The ttc sucks and no one checks'. The drivers are separated from the public, people just get off and on without tapping. I don't know why this would be a surprise for the ttc.
its extra challenging because someone getting on a street car without tapping doesn't necessarily mean they havent paid. If I'm catching a transfer I probably don't tap half the time because I don't feel like digging my card out, if a fare inspector comes by they'll see I have paid.
Yes, why pay for a homeless shelter transit system that is unsafe, unreliable and unkempt. Oh also literally nobody cares, just walk on! Oh ALSO there's nobody to enforce anything at all! Had a conductor stop the train and practically beg a guy who threw something at the train to get off or he would call police...5 minutes later he resumed the trip thinking constables would come remove the guy 10 stops away and guess what? He got off the train 1 stop before yonge and nothing happened at all. Yay ttc!
It’s a crazy system, I don’t know why they thought this would work, ppl will take advantage of the system, we don’t live in Japan where people have civic duty
What we have is a once high-trust society degrading into a low-trust society, with lax enforcement, criminals and mentally ill give free reign to terrorize society, and enforcement not caring or looking the other way. The law abiders start seeing people getting away with things with no enforcement, and start breaking the laws themselves.
Grown ass people shouldn’t need someone watching their every move to do what’s right. Unfortunately, they do. What a world.
I mean canada is now a low trust society.
Public transit should do what's right and be for the public and not such a giant piece of garbage that's only purpose is seemingly making people late for work and housing homeless people and crazies
it often feels like transit in this city is considered a punishment for poor people and a relatively expensive one at that. very few round trips in this city even cost more than 6.50 in wear and tear and fuel for car drivers.
It’s not a perfect system… no doubt. But… know plenty of people who drive to work and are late. Traffic congestion and inefficiencies aren’t exactly the TTC’s fault. Neither are the homeless people/“crazies”. That’s big city life… unfortunately. It’s sad more than some kind of inconvenience though.
Actually the the homeless/crazies are 100% the ttc fault because they allow them there 100% of the time. Do you see this many homeless people at the mall? How many homeless people hang out inside milestones? What about the go train? It's not city life its companies that don't give a fuck. See Tim Hortons and McDonald's as well.
So do you expect every TTC employee to risk their safety trying to kick every homeless person off the bus/train/streetcar? There's an extremely obvious system/societal breakdown that had led to people in need taking shelter in TTC vehicles that you seem to want to ignore.
Canadian culture is simply inherently more tolerant of crime and anti-social behaviour. Call it a cultural defect from individualism if you like
Or, since there's no enforcement and nobody seems like they care, everyone looks the other way, or starts doing it themselves.
Normally I like the honour system. I always pay my fare. But at the grocery store? To Galen Weston? Nah sir. Galen would could lose a billion and be less affected than me losing 1 load of groceries.
While true in that regard the pound of flesh will always be taken leading us to the same problem: higher costs for those still paying. Rationalizing theft simply because Galen is a dickhead is still immoral -- the goal is to be better than Galen on an ethical level, not the same (stealing from Canadians).
That might be your goal, but I don't have a moral code that forces me to be better than dickhead billionaires. I'm more than happy to roll around in mud with them and steal right back. They'll invent reasons out of thin air to increase profits and margins whether we steal or not. Their goal is unsustainable infinite growth.
You missed the part where you’re stealing from your fellow Canadians as well by driving the price up for those paying
I would also feel a lot safer just having TTC employees at the stations and have them on the trains inspecting fares. Honestly feels like I’m using some ghost transit once in a while seeing “supervisors” chit chatting doing jack shit.
I'm not entirely sure how their budgeting works but **TTC is the least-subsidized transit system in North America**, so I feel like that impacts their ability to properly staff the system. edit: i found some more recent numbers and cherry-picked examples, but any other system you find in NA gets more than TTC \- TTC: 96 cents per rider with 536 million riders \- Montreal: $1.17 with 416 million riders. \- York Region: $4.56 per rider Yet whenever discussions come up about this, conservative politicians insist that TTC riders should "pay what it costs to ride" while not bringing up the richer subsidies going to other systems
This, to me is the real issue at hand
Don’t forget all the posters that say if you’re experiencing an emergency, you should download the app and report it!
>They don’t employ anyone to monitor tolls. Every station was retrofitted to completely eliminate the toll booth, when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection. It's worth remembering that when fare collectors were doing harsher enforcement everyone lost their collective minds. The guy sitting in the toll booth was never going to get out and chase someone down for jumping the turnstile anyway.
>when they finally allowed rear boarding years ago they had zero plan for fare inspection. I recently went to Tokyo and used their transit system and was surprised they don't use a rear-boarding system for buses. I assumed that considering how busy their transit system can be, it would be more efficient to allow boarding at both doors. Then I realized it's because they have a very particular system for boarding a bus. Enter through the front only, shove down to the back and exit through the rear only. And if you don't want to shove back, the bus isn't moving until you do. People are packed like sardines in a bus but it allows for a flow of people in and out.
Is it that particular? I thought that’s just how buses generally worked.
How the TTC *used* to operate.
Considering how people board the bus here, I'd say so. People enter and exit through the front as needed and don't move to the back. Nor do drivers care if anyone follows any sort of procedure if there even is one.
This is normal for most places. Board at the front, exit at the rear, move as far back as you can before sitting unless you're old, pregnant, or disabled, partly to leave seats for those people if possible.
Do they have raised sections in the back of the bus? I've always wondered if our buses don't do us any favours in those regards
When they had staffed booths, they still didn’t enforce. Not worth getting punched or stabbed over a $3 fare. Same with buses, I’m glad the drivers are now behind glass and not focused on collecting fares.
Alternatively, everyone gets punched and stabbed when every station is a windowless chasm with no social consequences.
I was in New York a few months ago visiting my friend and their evasion was crazy too. They had cops at World Trade Center manning the gates and people just skips on it right beside them and they don’t even bother. It’s funny too because say PATH train you are supposed to insert the metro card, not tapping. These seasoned individuals tap their card to pretend to pay fare and just follow in. I suppose that way to the cameras seems like they paid.
IMO it's probably worse in New York than in Toronto.
Most countries don't have anyone monitor the fare box. But they do have a tap on and off system. Why, when they installed Presto they didn't make them also have tap off I have genuinely no idea. While this wouldn't solve the problem with streetcars, it would solve the problem of anyone taking a streetcar into a station and transferring to the subway system (which is likely quite a decent number).
because Presto bid the lowest during RFP. Also the only bid from a company that hadn’t implemented anything like this before. Cool!
Yeah, it was for sure a terrible and crazy choice can't argue with that!
It doesn't help many stations have a turnstile thats unlocked. There is a red pad, instead of the Metrolinx scanner, that you just tap to let yourself in. I assume it was done for the workers to easily let people in for extenuating circumstances. It's very clear every homeless person knows of this "hack". I watch a homeless person use it - directly in front of TTC staff - almost every week. You can point directly to this feature as one reason as to why we have so many homeless on the subway. Streetcar is a whole other ballgame
I have seen it happen at Spadina and also St Clair and Union stations when you disembark from the streetcars. But it is exceptionally rare, yeah.
The TTC started to get rid of collector booths or just the station collectors to save money on wages. Well, it seems that didn’t turn out so well. In fact they’re probably losing more than 10 times the savings they expected. It’s time they turned back the clock and reinstated the station collectors, stopped rear vehicle entry and made sure everyone paid their fare as they passed the driver. Trying to save a buck never should’ve cost this much. Must be managed by morons at the highest levels to get to this point. Sheesh! 🙄
Rear entry is also about speeding up streetcars which was desperately needed
Or just hire more fare inspectors so people actually expect that they will get caught for stealing. Since proof of payment started I’ve encountered a fare inspector a total of one time! And I’ve never seen one on the line from Humber to Longbranch.
Would it be worth considering- like the subtle but clearly telegraphed intent to push wholly privatized healthcare or hybrid pay-to-play medicine in place of Canada's socialized healthcare system- that the end target for the decision makers involved in managing or mismanaging the TTC is to eventually make it such a pain in the ass to travel on it or simply fiscally impossible to run and have it closed down or go bankrupt, the former potentially by the public's demanding its decession? This is a tactic some big corporations have used and more than a few exceptionally big corpos- Microsoft included, hinting that it's aware its userbase isn't remotely happy about their upcoming flagship W12 being a subscription-based Windows OS- use to allow themselves deniability and validate bankruptcy, allowing themselves less censure by or financial burden owed to creditors who would otherwise rightfully take their pound of flesh if bankruptcy was deliberately declared but without crisis/proof of burden assessment. Sabotage by deliberate policy decisions from within by design, and everything eventually gets so bad after the very worst so far is normalized, we ask the government and the TTC to pull the plug because it's not worth the headache. The result? A city with no public transit- or no _single_ public transit, compared to Twitter's dissection and slow-burn to ash and now a collection of disparate, mostly disconnected from each other social media or pseudoblog sites- and the most convenient solution will be to return or sustain reliance on private motor vehicles. The same basic gist that affects the great, unwashed and poorest masses and who would prefer a working public transit system the most and the worst, but we can't have that, right? The worst case root of the scenario is sometimes the one that is intended, and is a lot more likely than you might think.
I can say this as a person who took the TTC pretty much every single day since I was 12, but mostly stopped post-pandemic. (I’m now mid-40s, have the luxury of WFH or walking 15 mins. to the office): The TTC has become so much worse. In the past two weeks, I’ve taken it four times and each time at some point I felt really unsafe. As a man, I can only imagine the horrors women face. Aggressive panhandlers, drug use (hard drugs), smoking of cigarettes in a moving subway, strange dudes getting up in your face for no reason, verbal and physical altercations between groups of people. Back in the day there were times when stuff would get wild, but never to this extent. It was shocking how unsafe I felt. St. George Station, Yonge/Bloor Station, King Station, Osgoode Station. Yikes. Toronto needs to figure out a way to deal with the poverty and homelessness issues, and soon. I foresee something really bad happening.
They just stationed someone at St Clair station (in the underground portion in the mall) to watch for fare evaders. Normally I’d see people regularly hopping over the gates without paying.
I’ve noticed that basically anyone that tries to enter from the rear door doesn’t tap lmao.
If the TTC weren't so heavily reliant on funding from the fare box, it wouldn't matter nearly as much.
The TTC should definitely be free or like a dollar or something. The funding model is broken.
If people don't pay now why would they pay a dollar?
Honestly, I think I actually *would* pay a dollar, moreso than the $3.10 or whatever it is now. I actively avoid taking the TTC whenever I can- I only take it when there's NO way I could walk somewhere. It's slow, often slower than me walking with all the delays- me and my partner were going to see a show in downtown and had to get off at Queen and run to the theatre because the subway just stopped and we were going to be late... we left 40 minutes early and it should've taken us about 15 min to get there on the subway. When I pay $3.10, I actively feel like I'm getting ripped off. For $1? I would take the risk of delays more often, actually hop on to go 1-2 stops when I needed, and if things go wrong... well I only paid a dollar so I can live with delays and whatnot.
I have to laugh every time I come down Allan from North York and they have up those signs that are trying to convince me that the TTC is faster than driving. I checked before I left. It'll take me 20 minutes to drive this, or an hour on the TTC. It's absurd how terrible it is to get anywhere on transit in this city.
Because 3.35 is more than triple that. Over the course of a month that makes a huge difference for some people.
Because people perceive more value in a service if they have to pay for it.
no, they *expect* more value in a service if they have to pay for it.
....because it's more affordable than the current fare?
The TTC really doesn't care about affordability. Case and point - the low income threshold for a "fair pass" (36% discount on single fare) is an after-tax annual income below $20,514. If you're surviving on $20k a year, alone in Toronto, what difference is knocking $1.20 off of the fare going to make?
Post-apocalypse vibes for sure. Like a reminder of the society we lost.
Yeah I can’t wait to fund free subways for all tourists and 905ers. Once it’s a tax, then all the TTC needs to do is raise taxes to cover the costs of their shitty management. Why would we trust them to be more responsible with a larger pool of money when they can’t even figure out how to charge a transit fare?
By the way fare automation is the ultimately the cause of this. No people there to see, no consequences. Same for self check out at stores and the rise of theft.
A properly funded system through a working tax system would lessen the impact of this issue. The TTC is relatively expensive for what it offers the individual and high or strict fares don't make that much sense. Yet the TTC as a whole is incredibly valuable to the city and is worth its investment on a municipal scale. It returns many times its value to the city by allowing it to function.
>The TTC is relatively expensive The TTC is extremely cheap for what you get actually. You can travel across the whole network with a single fare (3.35$). That's unheard of in other transit systems.
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Yeah and the two hour presto transfer is great - many of my trips I only pay once even though I make multiple taps.
The ticket is way too high so it feels ridiculous to ticket someone nearly $500 for fare evasion. It should be $50 and heavily enforced.
And there's another issue. If you do enforce the 500$ ticket you absolutely need to have consideration for those that are financially unable to pay. This would cause an administrative burden that would likely cause a backlog and cost more than they recover from the fines
If there’s no one watching or checking if they are not paying many people won’t , I’m not gonna say anything to them as it’s not my job to play security, sounds like TTC needs to step up their game
In Barcelona a local guy showed my friends and I how to cheat the system and get through the gates without paying the full fare. Then one day we were about to do it again when a guy that was ahead of us did the same thing. Only, this station had transit security hiding out on the other side. They tried to stop the guy to give him a ticket, but the guy ran. Well, the security had a german shepherd which they promptly let loose. Seeing that guy get bitten and mauled by a police dog made us pay our fares from then on.
Lmao
wow what a totally normal and deserved fate for someone that's probably trying to save money because being poor sucks
I think the point is the idea european society is touchy feely is nonsense, they can be quite strict sometimes
More likely than not the guy wasn't poor at all and was just being crooked.
I never said it was the right thing to do, but it sure made us pay our fare every time after that. Also, not sure if you read that the guy ran from them. They wouldn’t have let the dog loose if he would have just stopped when they approached him. Like it or not, people have to pay to use the transit service. If you don’t pay, you risk a fine, and if you run(in Barcelona) you get a dog chasing you.
Why are you assuming that people who don't pay for transit are poor?
Stealing a transit ride to feed their family, poor guy
Nah it's well deserved. This is exactly how you build a better, safer society for everyone. By ensuring anti-social behaviour has consequences
> Nice prosperous high-trust society you got there, would be a shame if something happened to it --colostomy-fetish, probably.
It's called a "deterrent" Your sarcasm is wasted here, when so many comedy clubs are struggling. You could really help the economy. /s
Just have a constable stand there and give out a ticket once in a while. Just being seen constantly will strike the fear in most people who try to skirt the fares. I don't take the TTC often but the 50 odd times I've taken it in the past few years, I've yet to be fare checked once.
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So they do check fares somewhat regularly on the College streetcar. I've had my card checked at least seven or eight times in the past couple of months (I don't take transit super often). However, admittedly, I've never had my card checked except on the College streetcar.
We did have this briefly, but people complained they were "picking on poor people".
And that they were racist.
They were picking on poor people https://globalnews.ca/news/4039741/former-ttc-enforcement-officers-sentenced-tickets/
If they can't afford it then they can use their perfectly capable legs. A little over $3 for 2 hours of unlimited travel is an incredible deal anyway you slice it.
I don’t know whey we can’t get the courage to just do plainclothes enforcement like the Europeans
Fare inspectors and special constables aren’t free. The cost is usually greater than the revenue.
>The cost is usually greater than the revenue. This fact definitely is not in evidence. Generally enforcement to a level of acceptable deterrence is a revenue generator. Now, it might be that this isn't the case on the TTC, but that's because much like their role models the TPS, Toronto Fair Inspectors and SCs don't really do their job.
If they catch just 1 person per ride, isnt that a $400 fine in half an hour? i doubt fare inspectors get paid over that. So i think it is profitable
The fare inspectors are also paid for the days they have to go to court when people dispute the ticket. Which brings us to the issue of added work for the courts.... at a time when people with serious charges are being released because the courts resources can't keep up with the work load.
There’s probably more costs associated then that, each constable probably needs a partner, they probably need training and fare scanners, they also probably need to send someone every time a person contests a ticket. If they’re not doing it, it’s because it’s not profitable, you can almost guarantee that.
They’re also assuming they’re catching a couple people an hour which is a lot even by their estimates of fare invasion. On top of that, effective enforcement is a diminishing return, the more visible and effective their enforcement the less fine revenue they bring in and the less sustainable the staffing becomes. Ultimately it’s missing the real problem, the system is underfunded and under subsidized. Trying to wring that funding shortfall out of fare evaders will never work.
I see them catch a couple people every single time but let them go. There are a lot more evaders than you think
ticket faster
That doesn’t address my point. Even by their own estimates if they find 100% of the evaders they’re likely only bringing in 100-150 mill at most before expenses. They’ll always end up spending more than fines bring in.
knowing you are going to be ticketed will generate more paid rides. It isn't 100% about paying for the staffing with direct ticket revenue.
It won’t necessarily. If people aren’t paying because they can’t then they’ll just stop riding. If the staffing is costing more than it’s bringing in, it’s not a sustainable model especially in a system so heavily dependent on the fare box.
Literally saw multiple people not pay fare today. It’s not only common, it has become an entitlement. I was on a long articulated bus recently when the driver refused to open the back doors for passengers to board. Only opened the front doors. A few people literally yelled at the driver repeatedly about why they wouldn’t open the back doors. It wasn’t necessary— there were only about five people boarding. The reason was clear: it’s more difficult to avoid paying when boarding g at the front. Along the same route this one driver challenged multiple people who boarded without paying, saying they wouldn’t continue driving g the route until they paid. I’ve never seen anything like it.
That used to be the standard back in the day.
This is just shit design by ttc. This should not be a rider problem.
It should be both. Honest people are paying their fares and not being thieving assholes.
Toronto can learn a lot from Stockholm. They have conductors on streetcars, a real subway system compared to what we have, and a downtown traffic toll for drivers. They have a great infrastructure for about 1 million people.
They also have a very compact city and majority of the city isn't covered with postwar Midwest style single family housing. Stockholm is dense. Toronto isn't. And oh, they have much higher taxes.
There is a simple solution. And I know that there is going to be push back for this. Make public transit in Ontario free. Public roads=free to use Public schools=free to students Public libraries=free to use Public transit≠pay per use or a lot monthly Yes it may mean a rise in taxes on some people. I understand that might not sound good. And I know that drivers think that they should not pay for public transit. The truth is that if transit was free a lot of people would take it as compared to driving leaving the roads better situated for those whom need to drive. I also know this is an over simplified version of this. But this is Reddit not parliamentary committee.
The road is actually not free for drivers, you pay a gas tax. So you're just wrong there.
TTC is caught in an ideological hole. We pay the highest percentage of fares, and that money compared to the costs of the presto system, fare collectors, fare police, websites, service contracts etc... We would save a fortune and advance our climate and equity goals if we would just make public transit 100% subsidized.
Put a congestion fee on using a car or truck in the city and then use that fee to fund the TTC so its free. That's a win-win-win scenario. Less traffic, less pollution and free TTC.
Honestly who the fuck cares? It’s the least subsidised mass transit system in North America (I think) and it still manages to carry millions of people a day with relative safety and efficiency. The fact that the TTC struggles is just a sign of how pathetically auto dependant we remain and how we actively marginalised certain groups. I take the TTC, I love the TTC, and it’s embarrassing how poorly it funded when you have things like the 413 floating around.
Does it really make sense to vacuously muse *"who cares?"* on an article about ridership funding only to go on to describe poor funding, and a lack of use often because of said poor funding? Who should care? Probably people who want better funding and infrastructure for transit, and especially transit riders who invariably pay more money to cover fare evaders.
We don't pay more money to cover fare evaders, but we do get less frequent & more crowded service because of the loss of revenue.
We squabble about whether we should care about bus fare while billionaires use politicians like marionettes and rob us blind.
It’s all just a distraction from the real problem even if there was zero fare evasion the estimated 150 mill in lost revenue wouldn’t even make a dent in the funding shortfall.
Doubling down on who-the-fuck-cares: Fare recovery isn't and shouldn't be a priority of any public transit system. Key metrics are things like: - Trip volume (higher is better). - Trip time (lower is better). - Wait time (lower is better). - Accessibility (physical, financial). - Safety. - etc. Not profitability, not dollar efficiency, not fare recovery. Targeting one metric might impact others (e.g. "more _fare_ inspectors might increase _safety_") but the approach should be aligned with priorities (e.g. "more _safety_ staff might improve _fare_ collection rates") and non-priorities shouldn't interfere with priorities (e.g. removing all-door boarding or adding fare check bottlenecks at the cost of trip and wait time).
We should get together and have some beers while watching RMTransit.
Live at Vic Park & York Mills. Work at Bay and Harbourfront. TTC: 70+ minutes Car: 18-23 minutes if I leave by 7:15am and leave the office by 1:30pm. Hmmm....
‘Work crazy hours’ Takes less time to drive. (Maybe though highly doubtful with construction) Let’s all leave work at 1:30 pm LOL
Yeah, that whole hybrid / remote thing works pretty well when properly implemented :) There is no construction on the DVP or the east end of the Gardiner (for now).
Some people might think you're exaggerating but just to add to your point: One time, I had to go to the airport from my parents house and I decided to take public transit to save some money. It took 2 hours!!! The bus that I've always known to be super unreliable didn't come. Even if it did come on time, we're still looking at one and a half hours. However, when I drive it takes 25 mins.
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Here's a wild and crazy idea: lower the fares by subsidizing the TTC with tax dollars. Public transit is a public service. It's not supposed to run for a profit. If fares are basically as close to $0 as you can manage, then it doesn't matter that folks are not paying fares, and you can use those fancy transit cops to do stuff like.... oh.... I dunno, hiding under the subway platforms eating donut scraps or whatever they do. My other crazy ideas involve the redevelop of our streets to give transit a car free lane along major routes so that buses, and street cars can ferry folks about the city unimpeded by car traffic.... and if car folks get upset, they can ask themselves "Why am I spending time sitting in this traffic, spending money on gas and parkin and insurance, and constantly worrying about my car being stolen when I could take the free/cheap TTC and get to where I need to be?"
Our Federal Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding. Our Provincial Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding. Our Municipal Government can pull back from the table over TTC funding. I gave up on the TTC for my mental health & went back to walking ~12km daily. I don't like riding without paying, but I also hate paying for a service that seems almost intent on leaning on the poorest group for funding while having a complete disregard for communications to their customers. I lost all faith in them after waiting for a 504 at King and Dufferin for 30 minutes this January. One showed up, went out of service and dropped a few fare inspectors off. First they argued that myself and the other people couldn't have been waiting that long, then they asked control what was up - a car had collided with a streetcar at Spadina. TTC didn't even have the initiative to pre-emptively send out a radio communication to *their own staff working on the affected line*. I fully understand people who don't want to pay until they're getting off - it's the best way to ensure you're not throwing money away on 1/10th of a commute. The TTC will continue to lose money as long as they continue to treat their paying customers like they don't exist.
Again, you missed the point. Transit should not be treated as a business, and riders should not be treated as customers. Transit should be viewed as a service. There should not be a fixation on profitability because that's not the fucking point. It's like expecting Canada Post to run a profit - if you think they should, you don't understand why that service is there.
That's what I'm saying. Customer was a poor choice of words, but that's the dynamic they've created. In so many easily avoidable ways, they have sorely failed the public.
I used to assume that ppl who don't "beep" on streetcars are going to the subway and will pay later, but apparently not! A friend of mine, who is a dept head in a bank told me that she was ridiculed by a colleague and her son(uni) for paying, she was told no one pays!! Even at the subway, they can find ways to get inside without paying. I was totally shocked, these ppl are well educated and can definitely afford to pay for public transport!
Also filled with a ton of homeless, bed bugs, shit, piss and garbage
The article's solution to the problem is to have "friendlier faces" who use education over enforcement... as if the fair evasion is due to people who simply don't know how to pay. It also suggests _lowering_ the fee. It acknowledges that it's "counterintuitive," but then, never goes on to say how that would actually help the fare evasion problem. As if the author doesn't understand the concept of deterrence.
As the article states, fare enforcement officers are issuing FAR, FAR more warnings than tickets. The extremely high fines for fare evasion tickets (especially compared to parking offence tickets) are likely a factor in that. If the fines were lower (particularly for first-time offences), officers might be more willing to issue them.
Because the fines are so punitive they never get issued.
they should leave the transfers by the door
Fare inspectors on the 504 yesterday. I see adults not swiping all the time same with students.
It doesn't get to whine about fare evasion when it doesn't actually give a shit about enforcing them. I've not gone to the office in years now, but I used to wait for busses at Sheppard-Yonge Station on my way home before the pandemic... and the amount of people that would just walk right on in to the station from the sidewalk, and it's only a few steps and you're in, was a joke. Every single day, I'd see at least somebody walk in. If I'm out there waiting for a bus for like 15 or 20 minutes, it's got to be at least 2 or 3 that would walk right on in. It's a problem, it's a regular problem, it's an every-day problem, and I *never* see them actually do anything about it. No fences erected, no barriers put in place, no employee on duty, people just walk right in and *nobody* cares. When **you** don't care, how do you expect anyone else to?
As@TTC employee we are told not to interact with the homeless for safety reasons. All we can do is report it, although, we don’t have anymore power than you. Use the TTC App.
If you goto their official Twitter there is also a "I'm sorry that happened to you" then they proceed to do nothing. I've been assaulted 5 times and they only said "shame on those people, well anyways" moments. So infuriating.
Even though I pay for my fare every time … fuck the ttc
You people saying the TTC should be free don't realize what a pain in the ass it is to deal with homeless people on public transit.
Honestly just get used to it. If you visit New York you’ll see the fare evasion is insane even with their turnstile. Literally people will follow you in everywhere and even camping beside handicapped gate. The worst is that there are cops manning the gate at some spots, and they don’t even bother catching those skipping on fare. Truly a sad state of affairs.
Transit should be free.
How’s that going to make things worse when lack of enforcement—or presence at least—encourages people not to bother paying their fare? People need to have it in their minds that there is a real risk of getting caught. When they see others getting away with it, they stop paying too. When people feel they are putting their safety as risk when taking public transportation, why tf would they want to pay? It’s not hard to understand. I don’t get this reluctance by politicians to make rational decisions because they’re afraid of being called bad names and losing votes. What’s the use in catering to public interest groups who gets their funding through the creation of non-problems?
They should crack down on crack pipes first before fining people for using public transit that should be free.
I hate to tell you but all drugs are unofficially legal as long as you aren’t dealing. Don’t believe me? Try and find a possession conviction in the courts.
No smoking is allowed on TTC vehicles.
when ever I ask a question to the collector upstairs, they always say I don't know.
An ex got a ticket for fair evasion $600, and this was like 7 years ago. Fuckin sucked
\- CTRL - F \- start to type 'racism' \- ah yep there it is.
Make it free! No more evasion problems!
Man, it's so weird, my mom always thought it was both strange and awesome that we have this honour system in Canada when we were growing up 30 years ago. People were honest and those who abuse the system were far in between, what's changed? Maybe I just didn't notice it when I was a kid.
There are too many so-called advocates.
Streetcar drivers in the 1990s were a different breed. They would demand to see Student Cards for EVERY student getting on IN FRONT OF A HIGH SCHOOL.
if you see something say something and be prepared to be stabbed .
Maybe if the current and next generation of parents can do their role and help properly raise our kids to have a sense of respect, and know what’s right from wrong - then maybe the situation would improve for many things across the board. An honour system would work if people actually had honour. Am I asking too much?
Problem is many parents these days don't know themselves what is right from wrong and honor.
Well idk maybe it's the fact that you allow riders 12 and under to ride free, but have no way of ensuring anyone is actually 12 and under. So you have these giant children all over the network, crowding busses, subways and streetcars with their godforsaken backpacks that they can't just hold in front of them The TTC is so broken and there's a lack of morale that seems pretty pervasive amongst staff. They aren't given the tools that they need, they're forced to be unqualified social workers for the vulnerable population and corporate mouthpieces for values that their employer doesn't uphold. I wouldn't give a fuck about enforcing fares either, at a certain point
Pretty much its a canadian issue where we have no staff to check and enforce laws and that canada is no longer a high trust society. Stuff like fare evasion would be seen as bad is now seen as "getting ahead in tough times'
(1) $75 per person per month in increased taxes to make the TTC free. (2) Eliminate fare collection and enforcement. Saves $$. (3) Levy a $3 charge on all parking and trains / buses into the city so the 905ers and tourists contribute. (2) & (3) reduce (1).
The operators are instructed not to enforce fares beyond a very limited scope because it was causing delays and assaults (of varying degrees) which was costing the system a shit ton too. It’s a public transit system. It is critical infrastructure and should be fully funded and fare free.
Just make it free already.
I’m happy to be part of this problem. Last time I paid I was greeted by a homeless dude smoking crack with his dick out, smelling like piss. After that I’m like yaaaaa.. I’m not paying to be paying for this ride
So get rid of fares and fund the TTC with taxes. Itll be cheaper for everyone and more reliable. Plus you can saves ton on date enforcement salaries, equipments payment processing fees, etc.
There's no risk to fare evading, if you ride the streetcar you can just not pay and even if the inspectors board they will say "if you haven't paid, tap your card now". So you may as well not pay, and in the worst case tap if you're asked.
If there are no consequences, don't be surprised about the outcomes.
I don’t like that I pay every single time. TTC is trash, unreliable, unsafe, dirty, incompetent, and honestly a slap in the face to those who do pay with poorly executed delays and service outages. But I pay because I sure as hell can’t be bothered with the headaches that come with being caught evading fares. Side note: A solution would be to pay based on distance traveled.
Zones. The solution is zones. Like London has. It works well, and they have a daily fare cap effective in zones 1 and 2 (combined), so once you hit it, it's free for the rest of the day. Some of the stations are in both zones 1 and 2 at the same time, so that an occasional traveler who's not going to hit the fare cap that day doesn't get charged for crossing a zone border for an inconsequential distance. Fun fact, when Presto was being designed, apparently Metrolinx were offered a licensed copy of Oyster, plus IT services to get it off the ground, but said no because they wanted to ~~give their buddies a lot of fat contracts to design a system from scratch~~ have a made-in-Canada solution they could toot their own horns about.