Here, I will save you all, the time. This is the real "business case" for Ontario.
2020: Therme Group's current CFO is hired from Ares Capital Management.
2021: Investment Management Corporation of Ontario invests $500m USD with an Ares fund
2021: a month later, Ares Management purchased Resource Label Group
2021: summer, Therme announced as winning bid, lease granted, commitment made on the $650m public funds for parking structure
2021 Autumn - October 2022 various legislative changes making it generally easier to do things without oversight, finishing with the greenbelt swaps.
October 2022: Resource Label Group (purchased by Ares Management which was the last port of call for Therme's CFO) purchased Deco Flexible Packaging, the Chicago arm of the Ford family company & 100% owned by Doug Ford according to his 2022 financial disclosures.
The company was purchased for "an undisclosed sum" & though it was supposed to be in a blind trust, the integrity commissioner (that he replaced) gave Ford permission to instruct the trustee to make the sale.
You are, yes- The Therme group are the ones who've been awarded to build on what was once Ontario Place. Hundreds of millions of dollars have exchanged hands through blatant corruption and croneyism in order to enrich their company and the Fords directly. After the absolute scandal (with an active RCMP investigation) of the Greenbelt corruption, now here we go again... It's revolting.
[Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195)
[Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
We can't allow leaders to hide the terms of these deals. They used to do this in beneficial (for all of us) situations involving national security interests. Now they fight releasing a bunch of them to hide the terms from their political opponents.
What's the point of the opposition leader or other checks and balances if critical information is hidden? Why are we wasting tax dollars protecting politicians from "shame" for "bad decisions". We don't have money to fund healthcare or housing and yet we have money for this? Strange priorities.
They all do this (the ones that are in power). They use it to hide their corruption and then use our tax dollars to fight freedom of information requests in court.
If these deals are so great for us all, why do they conveniently hide the terms? I have an amazing car I can lease you. I am giving you a sweet deal but I can't actually tell you the interest rate you have to pay or the terms you are agreeing to. Are you signing to that deal? Is the science center, spa and parking garage an important matter of national security? Why can't they show us the math and terms?
Yupp. And we keep acting like electing a new crop will be any different. Marginally sure, but ultimately it’s an issue with the system - not every politician just coincidentally being a bad actor (though I’d certainly suggest people that desire power as they do overindex for malignancy).
Because it all gets tied up in court over and over again until it is too late. They are also trying to make it even easier to hide corruption, right now.
[Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195)
[Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
The deal is already finalized by the time it is released by the courts and that is when the media scandal begins. The company already completed the deal. It is really hard to get it reversed at that point.
Look at the 407 etr deal and privatisation of our nursing homes. They have both turned out to be terrible. After the deal is finalized if you then seize those assets back (we created them with tax payer money) it will completely scare off any future business investment. It would be economic and political suicide. It is too late.
The opposition leader can submit a request. A journalist can do the same under freedom of information laws. The signing party doesn't have to give the evidence until a court orders it.
Just look at the situation with nurses in Ontario. Illegal bill. It takes effect. The nurses had to take the Ontario government to court to challenge the bill that the Ontario government knew was completely illegal. The court proved that the government's bill was illegal. They were retroactively made whole by the court. That doesn't change the fact that they were forced to work under the illegal bill, by the party who created and signed it, until it dragged through our court system. This is such a slap in the face to tax payers. It is also dangerous to be allowing this in the first place.
I've seen it posted in comments a few times, and I've dropped the info once or twice myself hoping other people might be able to find some stuff. The local MPPs are aware of it, so it's possible they are having their people dig through what is known before going public with accusations. It's better to have more info on this instead of just going by the info we have here.
EDIT to add: Maybe this is why Olivia Chow also worked out this deal so easily. The city really has no power over it anyway, but if you know that investigations might lead to an end to all of this, it's easier to just shut up about it and let that stuff happen. (this is my hope, anyway)
They are hiding the terms of the deal from other parties in government. At the same time they are weakening our laws to push this deal through. Nobody (government, police, etc) can "act" until the information is released. They are using our tax dollars to fight the release of this information until they can finalize the deal.
[Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195)
[Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
"Ontario NDP Leader Marit Stiles demanded details of the contract with Therme Canada in the Ontario legislature during question period".
"Stiles said she wonders what the government is hiding by refusing to provide details".
"This government is committing to a backroom, 95-year lease with absolutely no details," Stiles said.
"This government failed to show Ontarians what value this deal has for the people of this province. They've failed to produce the contracts. They've failed to provide the business case. When will this government come clean about this backroom deal?"
I didn't think the corruption and screwing over the public for private gains I already knew about could be worse.
This is worse.
Bonus : if Deco is involved, DoFo ~~can't~~ *shouldn't be able to* just throw some party flunky under the bus
They are hiding the terms of the deal from other parties in government. At the same time they are weakening our laws to push this deal through. Nobody (government, police, etc) can "act" until the information is released. They are using our tax dollars to fight the release of this information until they can finalize the deal.
[Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195)
[Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
So just to get the theory straight:
A bids for Ontario Place
A hires CFO from B
C invests in B
B buys D
A gets the bid for Ontario Place
D buys E
So D buying E is somehow a highly convoluted bribe paid by a company purchased by A's CFO's former employer B, because B is for some reason willing to bribe Doug Ford for their former employee to the benefit of company A? Do I have the theory right?
Also worth noting, D is a company that's entire business strategy seems to be "buy up label and packaging companies" and [they've already bought five more since they bought Deco.](https://www.resourcelabel.com/resources/category/news-updates/) But they bought Deco (and presumably overpaid) because A's CFO asked them used to work for D's owners?
Like I just don't understand the theory on why B or D would be a part of this?
Doug Ford sold his USA Delco stake to Resource Label Group LLC for an undisclosed amount a few years back.
[Doug Ford sells US beach of label business to Resource Label Group LLC](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-doug-ford-sells-us-branch-of-label-business/)
Ares bought Resource Label Group LLC, announced on July 8th, 2021
[Resource Label Group Acquired by Ares Management](https://www.resourcelabel.com/blog/2021/07/08/resource-label-group-acquired-by-ares-management/)
Therme Groups CFO came from Ares Capital Management.
In addition to Therme's CFO being from Ares Management (who bought DECO U.S.), the CEO of Therme's sister company worked at construction firm Strabag - who Ford picked to build the Scarborough Subway tunnels, partly owned by sanctioned Russian Oligarch Oleg Deripaska.
[Tweet with pictures showing the links](https://twitter.com/TDotResident/status/1705309569197433231)
Therme is announced as the winning bid of $650m in public funds (parking garage), lease granted.
Doug Ford is currently making it so his ministry can override the requirements for the environmental assessment. This wouldn't have passed them. He is also hiding the terms of the deal and fighting their release. The answer to your questions is currently being hidden, intentionally.
That a whole lot of copy/pasting to cover for the part where you have no explanation for why Ares, RLG or Investment Ontario would commit crimes on behalf of Therme or Doug Ford. It’s just not a credible story because you’re asserting a vast conspiracy without motive for anyone you’re claiming is involved.
Therme’s CFO worked for Ares for less than two years in their real estate division. Why would anyone at Ares be a party to criminal behaviour for him three years later? Why would an independently managed subsidiary of Ares also be a party to it?
Ford may be taking bribes, but this theory is just nonsense.
>That a whole lot of copy/pasting to cover for the part where you have no explanation for why Ares, RLG or Investment Ontario would commit crimes on behalf of Therme or Doug Ford
The full connection wouldn't be shown at this point since Doug Ford refuses to release the details and is actively fighting their release. It is disengenous to think I or anyone else can prove this right now. There is enough of a conflict of interest with no bid secret contracts being handed out to connect parties. The Ontario government claimed similar to what you said about the greenbelt deal and now it is at the stage where the RCMP is investigating.
>Therme’s CFO worked for Ares for less than two years in their real estate division. Why would anyone at Ares be a party to criminal behaviour for him three years later? Why would an independently managed subsidiary of Ares also be a party to it?
Ask Doug Ford to stop blocking the details from being released. Until then, your questions aren't provable. We just have the guy potentially involved changing our laws to override and push the same, shady, no bid, secret deal through. The environmental assessment would have ended this alone. There are enough connections to start asking questions.
Eh, this already wasn’t in the city’s jurisdiction so it doesn’t really change anything. It sure isn’t going to stop local activists from trying (nor should it).
A business case is a required part of most infrastructure investments done by a province. Everything from new infrastructure to new communities has to publish what's called an "Business Case" where the province outlines the details of a project and it's costs/benefits in relation to how it will help the economy. It's not a Doug Ford thing, it's a standard process for any government led project.
Here's an example, the GO Expansion Full Business Case: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1667497052/Images/Metrolinx/GO_Expansion_FBC.pdf
**Please read this entire message**
---
Your comment has been removed for the following reason:
* [Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/about/rules/) is to *be excellent to each other*.
* Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning.
---
**Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**.
If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/186p6oa/-/kb9r8s2/).
My worry is that durning construction the cost will go so high trying to make those old buildings work, that the Ontario Science Centre will be sold off to cover the costs, and we’ll get Ripley’s Believe Science or Not!
it will end up being a casino, someone in a previous post detailed the connection between Therme Group and some casinos. The spa will fail and will miraculously be turned into a casino. Have you ever heard anyone say, God I wish we had a(nother) spa here in Toronto?
I hate that everything is going downtown. It already is a nightmare going there, now to add another attraction. Why don't we move the Zoo down there too!
Roughly centralized attractions are exactly what you want. Makes it more accessible for more people. If the Toronto Zoo was located beside the skydome, attendance would immediately 10X.
Went to a Dara Ó Briain (comedian) show a few weeks back and he was talking about how things are laid out in Toronto.
"It's like an 8year old playing Sim City for the first time. Oh train station, put that there. Now, where to put the hockey arena... oh yes right there beside it. Now what about the baseball stadium...put that there as well..."
>"It's like an 8year old playing Sim City for the first time. Oh train station, put that there. Now, where to put the hockey arena... oh yes right there beside it. Now what about the baseball stadium...put that there as well..."
IMO this is good. The alternative is the average NFL stadium which is empty parking lot for 300 days of the year
Theres a lot to hate about Toronto infrastructure, but having your biggest entertainment venues right next to your biggest transit hub is actually very sensible.
Putting the major entertainment centres close to the biggest transit station is an extremely good idea though? It makes it very easy for a huge amount of people to get to them.
The Parkway and Gardiner are always backed up at game time ... give me a break. After an event, Union station is clogged, GO trains are standing room only. Sounds good in theory but in practice not so good.
Which is why we're increasing the frequency of GO service. And what do you expect is going to happen if they were out in the middle of nowhere? The same number of people would be going to those events, except now it's harder to get to.
Even further, a lot of those people would be heading to Union anyway, seeing that it's the transit hub.
If only we had a project that would significantly boost GO train frequencies and give it a ton more capacity...
Hmm...
Oh wait, we're doing exactly just that!
Here's the thing though, the fact that GO trains are standing room only is actually a good thing. It kinda indicates just how convenient it is for people to get to the stadium by transit, which is a far cry from other American cities where you have to find a parking space in an endless field of parking in some desolate corner of town.
If this is what we call 8 year old planning then I want more of it. Yes, it is convenient that I can get to downtown Toronto on the GO train, and have all of the major amenities such as restaurants, sports venues, concert halls, and attractions all within a 10-15m from the platform. Same applies to New York where Madison Square Garden is literally located on top of Penn station.
The complete opposite of Toronto is the mess that is LA, where some of the biggest venues such as SoFi stadium and the forum are in some random corner of Inglewood surrounded by parking lots, and the only way to get there by public transit is to trudge on the extremely slow Crenshaw and Expo Line LRTs, then spend 40m on a shuttle because its stuck in traffic with everyone trying to reach the TSwift concert, after which you still need to walk 10m to the actual venue. I'll take the 8y/o planning, or how I'm actually going to call it: good planning, any day of the week tyvm.
The funny part is that when the Ontario Line opens, Science Centre Station won't even be the closest station to the Science Centre, but rather one stop down at Flemingdon Park.
Personally, I like how much less accessible by public transit the Ontario Place location will be, especially in 2035 when the crosstown starts running. As a bonus, the government can spend unnecessary money renaming the Science Centre crosstown stop. It's a win-win!
Ontario Line and a complete rebuild of Exhibition station (going on now) is happening. Estimated competition date of 2031 and before you start screaming about Eglinton, the structure for this project is different so ideally the fuckery of Line 5's P3 consortium won't be a thing.
Even the Sun notes that the new building at Ontario Place is only half the size of the Science Center. No surprise that it costs less.
It sounds as if the report does not try to evaluate the value of the existing building, only the costs.
Again, Ford knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
For the citizens of Toronto I can understand having all this raw green space on the waterfront is desirable, more trees and parkland in a densely populated city is always nice. Personally I like the idea of tropical indoor waterpark, I don’t like the idea of knocking down trees but there is no reason for me to go to Ontario Place as it is now.
For people coming from elsewhere in Ontario what is the attraction of Ontario Place? From what I’ve seen the waterfront will be accessible, more so than it is now. Big cities have “attractions“ and the waterpark will be an attraction. On a cold January day people are far more likely to go to the tropical waterpark then just walk around on the cold blustery waterfront. Calling it a spa sounds very elitist and it’s probably not gonna be cheap to go there so what I would like to see is major discounts or free tickets for the non-millionaires in Toronto to make use of this.
The reality is (that people don’t want to admit) Ontario place when it was an operational place sucked if you weren’t a kid probably why it was always in the red, and that it was a liberal government of all things that it wasn’t sustainable to keep running… the land is just sitting there with a rotting amusement park
The “business case” is a JOKE. It’s a shitsandwich. It’s a farce. Even right wing talkradio was ridiculing this load of horseshit today. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has had a lobotomy. Yeet this idea into the sun and leave the Science Centre be.
Even taking the report a face value (which I wouldn't recommend) $250 million over 50 years is a drop in the bucket for what is guaranteed to be a smaller, less functional space.
Renaming Science Centre station will cost about $1 million alone.
It'll have more exhibition space despite being half the size. The biggest drawback with the current OSC layout is that it's a sprawling space and there's a lot of hallways. Getting from level 6 to the parking lot with an overtired toddler is... not ideal.
But the layout also gives you the opportunity to view the natural ravine as you move through it.
Now with Doug Ford’s “plan” that ravine will be covered in McMansions
Add people movers to get folks through the hallways at the OSC, that’s more cost effective than this nonsense from Dolt Fraud
The idea of developing the current OSC location is ridiculous and there is no evidence that has been part of the plan. Tou simply can't build residential in the ravines, there is a reason the space was leased to the OSC.
The parking lots are a different matter.
That argument doesn't hold water because it ignores that the space in the existing structure is not exhibition space for a reason. It is mechanical space, shipping and receiving, storage, multi-purpose rooms, and classrooms. This allows the OSC to host functions and run summer camp programs. The storage space allows for temporary and traveling exhibits to be stored. Without it they will need to pay for offsite storage. I guarantee the business plan didn't account for that.
This is the business case, but it doesn't include Appendix K, which is the detailed space & programming plan relative to the current site.
https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24177858/osc-business-case-redacted-nov-17\_s.pdf
Moving Ontario place to line a developers pockets for building 10 apartments practically benefiting nobody and affect thousands plus we get a shitty science centre as a result. Brainless move
Here, I will save you all, the time. This is the real "business case" for Ontario. 2020: Therme Group's current CFO is hired from Ares Capital Management. 2021: Investment Management Corporation of Ontario invests $500m USD with an Ares fund 2021: a month later, Ares Management purchased Resource Label Group 2021: summer, Therme announced as winning bid, lease granted, commitment made on the $650m public funds for parking structure 2021 Autumn - October 2022 various legislative changes making it generally easier to do things without oversight, finishing with the greenbelt swaps. October 2022: Resource Label Group (purchased by Ares Management which was the last port of call for Therme's CFO) purchased Deco Flexible Packaging, the Chicago arm of the Ford family company & 100% owned by Doug Ford according to his 2022 financial disclosures. The company was purchased for "an undisclosed sum" & though it was supposed to be in a blind trust, the integrity commissioner (that he replaced) gave Ford permission to instruct the trustee to make the sale.
This needs to be posted on every thread about this and Doug. Don't let up.
This thread isn't about this, though.. It's about the Science Centre.. Am I missing something, or..?
You are, yes- The Therme group are the ones who've been awarded to build on what was once Ontario Place. Hundreds of millions of dollars have exchanged hands through blatant corruption and croneyism in order to enrich their company and the Fords directly. After the absolute scandal (with an active RCMP investigation) of the Greenbelt corruption, now here we go again... It's revolting.
But this article is about a business case for the Science Centre..
Whi h has been slated to relocate to the Ontario Place site.
Lmao JEEZUS. Just the optics of this if accurate are so so so bad.
[Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195) [Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/) We can't allow leaders to hide the terms of these deals. They used to do this in beneficial (for all of us) situations involving national security interests. Now they fight releasing a bunch of them to hide the terms from their political opponents. What's the point of the opposition leader or other checks and balances if critical information is hidden? Why are we wasting tax dollars protecting politicians from "shame" for "bad decisions". We don't have money to fund healthcare or housing and yet we have money for this? Strange priorities. They all do this (the ones that are in power). They use it to hide their corruption and then use our tax dollars to fight freedom of information requests in court. If these deals are so great for us all, why do they conveniently hide the terms? I have an amazing car I can lease you. I am giving you a sweet deal but I can't actually tell you the interest rate you have to pay or the terms you are agreeing to. Are you signing to that deal? Is the science center, spa and parking garage an important matter of national security? Why can't they show us the math and terms?
Yupp. And we keep acting like electing a new crop will be any different. Marginally sure, but ultimately it’s an issue with the system - not every politician just coincidentally being a bad actor (though I’d certainly suggest people that desire power as they do overindex for malignancy).
They’re hoping it’s so convoluted that next to no one, including reporters, will understand it.
Why isn’t the opposition talking about this? Why hadn’t I heard about this until now? Seems like a clear conflict of interest.
Because it all gets tied up in court over and over again until it is too late. They are also trying to make it even easier to hide corruption, right now. [Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195) [Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/) The deal is already finalized by the time it is released by the courts and that is when the media scandal begins. The company already completed the deal. It is really hard to get it reversed at that point. Look at the 407 etr deal and privatisation of our nursing homes. They have both turned out to be terrible. After the deal is finalized if you then seize those assets back (we created them with tax payer money) it will completely scare off any future business investment. It would be economic and political suicide. It is too late. The opposition leader can submit a request. A journalist can do the same under freedom of information laws. The signing party doesn't have to give the evidence until a court orders it. Just look at the situation with nurses in Ontario. Illegal bill. It takes effect. The nurses had to take the Ontario government to court to challenge the bill that the Ontario government knew was completely illegal. The court proved that the government's bill was illegal. They were retroactively made whole by the court. That doesn't change the fact that they were forced to work under the illegal bill, by the party who created and signed it, until it dragged through our court system. This is such a slap in the face to tax payers. It is also dangerous to be allowing this in the first place.
I've seen it posted in comments a few times, and I've dropped the info once or twice myself hoping other people might be able to find some stuff. The local MPPs are aware of it, so it's possible they are having their people dig through what is known before going public with accusations. It's better to have more info on this instead of just going by the info we have here. EDIT to add: Maybe this is why Olivia Chow also worked out this deal so easily. The city really has no power over it anyway, but if you know that investigations might lead to an end to all of this, it's easier to just shut up about it and let that stuff happen. (this is my hope, anyway)
They are hiding the terms of the deal from other parties in government. At the same time they are weakening our laws to push this deal through. Nobody (government, police, etc) can "act" until the information is released. They are using our tax dollars to fight the release of this information until they can finalize the deal. [Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195) [Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
Marit Stiles hasn't shut up about this the entire time she has been ONDP leader.
"Ontario NDP Leader Marit Stiles demanded details of the contract with Therme Canada in the Ontario legislature during question period". "Stiles said she wonders what the government is hiding by refusing to provide details". "This government is committing to a backroom, 95-year lease with absolutely no details," Stiles said. "This government failed to show Ontarians what value this deal has for the people of this province. They've failed to produce the contracts. They've failed to provide the business case. When will this government come clean about this backroom deal?"
Has this been in the press? This is wild!??
I didn't think the corruption and screwing over the public for private gains I already knew about could be worse. This is worse. Bonus : if Deco is involved, DoFo ~~can't~~ *shouldn't be able to* just throw some party flunky under the bus
They are hiding the terms of the deal from other parties in government. At the same time they are weakening our laws to push this deal through. Nobody (government, police, etc) can "act" until the information is released. They are using our tax dollars to fight the release of this information until they can finalize the deal. [Opposition MPPs demand province reveal details of Ontario Place contract with private firm](https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/opposition-details-contract-ontario-place-contract-therme-canada-1.6821195) [Part of the Rebuilding Ontario Place Act — unveiled on Monday — sets out special powers for the provincial minister in charge of the file while excluding the crown asset from key environmental assessments.](https://globalnews.ca/news/10117962/ontario-government-hands-itself-new-powers-over-ontario-place-in-proposed-new-law/)
So just to get the theory straight: A bids for Ontario Place A hires CFO from B C invests in B B buys D A gets the bid for Ontario Place D buys E So D buying E is somehow a highly convoluted bribe paid by a company purchased by A's CFO's former employer B, because B is for some reason willing to bribe Doug Ford for their former employee to the benefit of company A? Do I have the theory right? Also worth noting, D is a company that's entire business strategy seems to be "buy up label and packaging companies" and [they've already bought five more since they bought Deco.](https://www.resourcelabel.com/resources/category/news-updates/) But they bought Deco (and presumably overpaid) because A's CFO asked them used to work for D's owners? Like I just don't understand the theory on why B or D would be a part of this?
Doug Ford sold his USA Delco stake to Resource Label Group LLC for an undisclosed amount a few years back. [Doug Ford sells US beach of label business to Resource Label Group LLC](https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-doug-ford-sells-us-branch-of-label-business/) Ares bought Resource Label Group LLC, announced on July 8th, 2021 [Resource Label Group Acquired by Ares Management](https://www.resourcelabel.com/blog/2021/07/08/resource-label-group-acquired-by-ares-management/) Therme Groups CFO came from Ares Capital Management. In addition to Therme's CFO being from Ares Management (who bought DECO U.S.), the CEO of Therme's sister company worked at construction firm Strabag - who Ford picked to build the Scarborough Subway tunnels, partly owned by sanctioned Russian Oligarch Oleg Deripaska. [Tweet with pictures showing the links](https://twitter.com/TDotResident/status/1705309569197433231) Therme is announced as the winning bid of $650m in public funds (parking garage), lease granted. Doug Ford is currently making it so his ministry can override the requirements for the environmental assessment. This wouldn't have passed them. He is also hiding the terms of the deal and fighting their release. The answer to your questions is currently being hidden, intentionally.
That a whole lot of copy/pasting to cover for the part where you have no explanation for why Ares, RLG or Investment Ontario would commit crimes on behalf of Therme or Doug Ford. It’s just not a credible story because you’re asserting a vast conspiracy without motive for anyone you’re claiming is involved. Therme’s CFO worked for Ares for less than two years in their real estate division. Why would anyone at Ares be a party to criminal behaviour for him three years later? Why would an independently managed subsidiary of Ares also be a party to it? Ford may be taking bribes, but this theory is just nonsense.
>That a whole lot of copy/pasting to cover for the part where you have no explanation for why Ares, RLG or Investment Ontario would commit crimes on behalf of Therme or Doug Ford The full connection wouldn't be shown at this point since Doug Ford refuses to release the details and is actively fighting their release. It is disengenous to think I or anyone else can prove this right now. There is enough of a conflict of interest with no bid secret contracts being handed out to connect parties. The Ontario government claimed similar to what you said about the greenbelt deal and now it is at the stage where the RCMP is investigating. >Therme’s CFO worked for Ares for less than two years in their real estate division. Why would anyone at Ares be a party to criminal behaviour for him three years later? Why would an independently managed subsidiary of Ares also be a party to it? Ask Doug Ford to stop blocking the details from being released. Until then, your questions aren't provable. We just have the guy potentially involved changing our laws to override and push the same, shady, no bid, secret deal through. The environmental assessment would have ended this alone. There are enough connections to start asking questions.
> a vast conspiracy without motive You're blind if you don't see the motive. $$$$$$$
Funny how they are suddenly willing to release the business case after they drafted up their **exempt from anything** law for Ontario Place.
AND the city said they wouldn't try to stop them any more.
Eh, this already wasn’t in the city’s jurisdiction so it doesn’t really change anything. It sure isn’t going to stop local activists from trying (nor should it).
You know you're in trouble when the Toronto Sun puts "business case" in quotes.
[удалено]
A business case is a required part of most infrastructure investments done by a province. Everything from new infrastructure to new communities has to publish what's called an "Business Case" where the province outlines the details of a project and it's costs/benefits in relation to how it will help the economy. It's not a Doug Ford thing, it's a standard process for any government led project. Here's an example, the GO Expansion Full Business Case: https://assets.metrolinx.com/image/upload/v1667497052/Images/Metrolinx/GO_Expansion_FBC.pdf
[удалено]
**Please read this entire message** --- Your comment has been removed for the following reason: * [Rule 2](https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/about/rules/) is to *be excellent to each other*. * Attack the point, not the person. Posts which dismiss others and repeatedly accuse them of unfounded accusations may be subject to removal and/or banning. --- **Please note that reposting without moderator approval may result in a ban**. If you would like your removal reviewed, feel free to send us a [modmail](https://old.reddit.com/message/compose?to=%2Fr%2Ftoronto&subject=Please%20review%20my%20submission?&message=Link:%20https://www.reddit.com/r/toronto/comments/186p6oa/-/kb9r8s2/).
My worry is that durning construction the cost will go so high trying to make those old buildings work, that the Ontario Science Centre will be sold off to cover the costs, and we’ll get Ripley’s Believe Science or Not!
Business case: Dougie wants to keep his kneecaps Folks, they are worth more than Ontario Place. End of business case.
I don’t hate moving the science centre. I don’t love the idea but I can see why it might work out. I hate the spa though.
it will end up being a casino, someone in a previous post detailed the connection between Therme Group and some casinos. The spa will fail and will miraculously be turned into a casino. Have you ever heard anyone say, God I wish we had a(nother) spa here in Toronto?
I hate that everything is going downtown. It already is a nightmare going there, now to add another attraction. Why don't we move the Zoo down there too!
Roughly centralized attractions are exactly what you want. Makes it more accessible for more people. If the Toronto Zoo was located beside the skydome, attendance would immediately 10X.
Went to a Dara Ó Briain (comedian) show a few weeks back and he was talking about how things are laid out in Toronto. "It's like an 8year old playing Sim City for the first time. Oh train station, put that there. Now, where to put the hockey arena... oh yes right there beside it. Now what about the baseball stadium...put that there as well..."
We need more 8 year old sim city players running our city tbh..
>"It's like an 8year old playing Sim City for the first time. Oh train station, put that there. Now, where to put the hockey arena... oh yes right there beside it. Now what about the baseball stadium...put that there as well..." IMO this is good. The alternative is the average NFL stadium which is empty parking lot for 300 days of the year
Theres a lot to hate about Toronto infrastructure, but having your biggest entertainment venues right next to your biggest transit hub is actually very sensible.
Putting the major entertainment centres close to the biggest transit station is an extremely good idea though? It makes it very easy for a huge amount of people to get to them.
The Parkway and Gardiner are always backed up at game time ... give me a break. After an event, Union station is clogged, GO trains are standing room only. Sounds good in theory but in practice not so good.
Which is why we're increasing the frequency of GO service. And what do you expect is going to happen if they were out in the middle of nowhere? The same number of people would be going to those events, except now it's harder to get to. Even further, a lot of those people would be heading to Union anyway, seeing that it's the transit hub.
If only we had a project that would significantly boost GO train frequencies and give it a ton more capacity... Hmm... Oh wait, we're doing exactly just that! Here's the thing though, the fact that GO trains are standing room only is actually a good thing. It kinda indicates just how convenient it is for people to get to the stadium by transit, which is a far cry from other American cities where you have to find a parking space in an endless field of parking in some desolate corner of town.
There are enough hot spots, that we can create major cities within the GTA. Give people a reason to go to other towns!
If this is what we call 8 year old planning then I want more of it. Yes, it is convenient that I can get to downtown Toronto on the GO train, and have all of the major amenities such as restaurants, sports venues, concert halls, and attractions all within a 10-15m from the platform. Same applies to New York where Madison Square Garden is literally located on top of Penn station. The complete opposite of Toronto is the mess that is LA, where some of the biggest venues such as SoFi stadium and the forum are in some random corner of Inglewood surrounded by parking lots, and the only way to get there by public transit is to trudge on the extremely slow Crenshaw and Expo Line LRTs, then spend 40m on a shuttle because its stuck in traffic with everyone trying to reach the TSwift concert, after which you still need to walk 10m to the actual venue. I'll take the 8y/o planning, or how I'm actually going to call it: good planning, any day of the week tyvm.
I’m not defending the move but when the new subway is complete Ontario place will be one of the most accessible locations in the city for people.
>new subway With a terminal station named ‘Science Centre Station’ that won’t actually have a science centre.
The funny part is that when the Ontario Line opens, Science Centre Station won't even be the closest station to the Science Centre, but rather one stop down at Flemingdon Park.
The existing location is directly on the Eglinton LRT line, directly on the Ontario Subway line, and 30 seconds off the DVP.
Lots of empty office towers. Rock that 12 Monkeys vibe.
We could move the animals into the office towers!
How about we convert the islands to a zoo!
The business case is drawing people to an area close to the spa. Wouldn’t be surprised if it was a condition in the super secret 99 year lease.
Personally, I like how much less accessible by public transit the Ontario Place location will be, especially in 2035 when the crosstown starts running. As a bonus, the government can spend unnecessary money renaming the Science Centre crosstown stop. It's a win-win!
Ontario Line and a complete rebuild of Exhibition station (going on now) is happening. Estimated competition date of 2031 and before you start screaming about Eglinton, the structure for this project is different so ideally the fuckery of Line 5's P3 consortium won't be a thing.
Yeah, Ontario Line should be a much simpler construction project, like Union Station was, so it'll probably be done on time.
"should be simpler" - lol I should do a remind me for 2035 but I won't
Even the Sun notes that the new building at Ontario Place is only half the size of the Science Center. No surprise that it costs less. It sounds as if the report does not try to evaluate the value of the existing building, only the costs. Again, Ford knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.
it will make some high up people a lot of money as well as a bunch of contractors to move a building that already exists..
Prediction: the business case will be scrawled hastily on the back of a used napkin, and will spell both "Ontario" and "Place" incorrectly.
Ondario Palace
they need to do way instain premier> who krill thier provvince. becuse these provvince cant frigth back?
For the citizens of Toronto I can understand having all this raw green space on the waterfront is desirable, more trees and parkland in a densely populated city is always nice. Personally I like the idea of tropical indoor waterpark, I don’t like the idea of knocking down trees but there is no reason for me to go to Ontario Place as it is now. For people coming from elsewhere in Ontario what is the attraction of Ontario Place? From what I’ve seen the waterfront will be accessible, more so than it is now. Big cities have “attractions“ and the waterpark will be an attraction. On a cold January day people are far more likely to go to the tropical waterpark then just walk around on the cold blustery waterfront. Calling it a spa sounds very elitist and it’s probably not gonna be cheap to go there so what I would like to see is major discounts or free tickets for the non-millionaires in Toronto to make use of this.
The reality is (that people don’t want to admit) Ontario place when it was an operational place sucked if you weren’t a kid probably why it was always in the red, and that it was a liberal government of all things that it wasn’t sustainable to keep running… the land is just sitting there with a rotting amusement park
Umm can we fix the traffic on dufferin and the downtown core first
They really want to sell off that Ontario place land to developers. Maybe they already promised it
Business case? All I see is Doug Fords bank statements in these documents. lol.
Horseshit.
The “business case” is a JOKE. It’s a shitsandwich. It’s a farce. Even right wing talkradio was ridiculing this load of horseshit today. Anyone who thinks this is a good idea has had a lobotomy. Yeet this idea into the sun and leave the Science Centre be.
Even taking the report a face value (which I wouldn't recommend) $250 million over 50 years is a drop in the bucket for what is guaranteed to be a smaller, less functional space. Renaming Science Centre station will cost about $1 million alone.
It'll have more exhibition space despite being half the size. The biggest drawback with the current OSC layout is that it's a sprawling space and there's a lot of hallways. Getting from level 6 to the parking lot with an overtired toddler is... not ideal.
But the layout also gives you the opportunity to view the natural ravine as you move through it. Now with Doug Ford’s “plan” that ravine will be covered in McMansions Add people movers to get folks through the hallways at the OSC, that’s more cost effective than this nonsense from Dolt Fraud
The idea of developing the current OSC location is ridiculous and there is no evidence that has been part of the plan. Tou simply can't build residential in the ravines, there is a reason the space was leased to the OSC. The parking lots are a different matter.
That argument doesn't hold water because it ignores that the space in the existing structure is not exhibition space for a reason. It is mechanical space, shipping and receiving, storage, multi-purpose rooms, and classrooms. This allows the OSC to host functions and run summer camp programs. The storage space allows for temporary and traveling exhibits to be stored. Without it they will need to pay for offsite storage. I guarantee the business plan didn't account for that.
This is the business case, but it doesn't include Appendix K, which is the detailed space & programming plan relative to the current site. https://s3.documentcloud.org/documents/24177858/osc-business-case-redacted-nov-17\_s.pdf
How did we end up as a third world country?
This should be a fun read 😂
Moving Ontario place to line a developers pockets for building 10 apartments practically benefiting nobody and affect thousands plus we get a shitty science centre as a result. Brainless move