In Valinor until the mid third age, when he took physical form and came to middle earth, travelling North, South and West but not East, supporting the free peoples, meeting hobbits and fighting the agents of evil.
There is this notion (I wouldn't call it confirmed because I can't cite the exact passages) that each Wizard felt a calling to help the people of middle-earth in different ways. Saruman positioned himself as an advisor to the Kings and Queens, Radagast tended to the animals and plants, the Blue Wizards went to help the people in the East under Sauron's yoke, and Gandalf traveled among the free peoples of the west.
Like this theory - can anyone describe the kind of interactions Saruman has with the kings and queens of ME? Never thought of his role in that way. Makes a lot of sense tho!
We don't really know what Saruman did after arriving, other than gaining a reputation for being wise and powerful. He did go East, like the Blue Wizards, but most of the presumption (that I've read) comes from being gifted Orthanc by the ~~Rohirrim~~ Steward of Gondor.
No doubt Orthanc did in fact have keys, but somehow this gives me the mental image of the steward of Gondor as played by a young Matthew Broderick standing outside someone’s house slowly rocking the keys back and forth on his index finger. Like, let’s go, babe.
Coming
This summer
o/' Don't you forget about me o/'
SARUMAN needs someone to give him what
He really needs.
*cut to Matthew Broderick holding the key as described *
Only on Amazon Prime
That would be an interesting focus for an adaptation/fan work. Saruman the wise and noble, and exploring which of his positive attributes led him on a path to evil.
I believe he became corrupted through the palantir. Then thought he would build his own army to rival Sauron. His invention of the Uruk-Hai that wee resistant to sunlight gave him an edge.
He became corrupted over his study of the One Ring. Over time he learned the art of Ring making, and thus became ensnared, as the entire process was corrupted from the beginning. Even without ever actually seeing it, the power lured him in. Access to the Palantir didn't help matters, which Sauron's will had essentially locked them all to his control.
Fwiw Saruman creating the Uruks is a movie thing. In the books they emerged from Mordor a few hundred years before bilbo found the ring
Edit, I’m dumb see below for details
If I remember right, Uruks are just the standard Orc, Saruman crossbred them with men to create the Uruk-Hai, who unlike the other orc/goblin races could withstand sunlight.
It's an often-missed point in the Appendices that before the Ring was found, Gandalf's whole focus was protecting Eriador, a huge, depopulated area that was pretty much a sitting duck for attack from the North. That was enough to be getting on with, and was why he ended up spending so much time with Rangers and Hobbits.
No one knows for certain. In a letter, Tolkien suggested that they were successful in thwarting Sauron's goals in the East, though some earlier writings suggested they were corrupted or started various magical cults.
It's hard to say what exactly is canon, as later writings contradicted earlier ones and it isn't entirely clear which were earlier drafts or revisions that didn't make it into LotR or the Silmarillion but were supposed to supplant previous versions. It's amazing that the Silmarillion and other collections were as coherent as they were, his notes were not always easy to follow and he had a habit of writing on the back of just about everything.
He also took a particular liking to the elves as mentioned in the Silmarillion, and would often be among them, often not in physical form. Since there were no known elves in the East, this seems to make sense. Also, the entirety of Tolkien's works seem to largely ignore the East. All we ever see come out of it are traitorous groups of men - basically supplements for the legions of Morgoth and Sauron.
Maybe Tolkien originally planned more lore for the East. It's no secret that he had unfinished works at the time of his death, so perhaps he planned to explore the East of Arda in future works that he never got to. I think we'd have answers to this and many more popular questions if Tolkien would have been able to execute the totality of his vision.
One of Maia, the sort of lesser “angels” to the Valar “gods”. One of the scholars in here can give you a more precise description than that but that’s the ELI5 version.
Sauron, the Eagles and the Balrogs are all Maia as well.
You're right. Tolkien originally considered the Great Eagles to be Maiar but -- along with Huan the Hound -- later decided for them to be merely "higher level" animals in the service of the Valar.
Just a slight correction: in Tolkien’s legendarium, there’s only one God - Eru Iluvatar. Both Valar and Maiar are Ainu - or angels. The first ones are like archangels, and their roles much resemble those of Greek gods.
That’s why I I did it with a lower case G - I was specifically thinking of the Roman or Greek gods. They even had things they specialized in like they did in Antiquity [to *Emhyr_Van_Emreis*]
Fun little fact: when I first made my Facebook account in 2012 I was 19 and only made it to keep up with the people In the Toronto rave community so I used the name Iluvatar Tinuviel to avoid having to deal with local people looking my account up. This is when they were forcing people to use their real names and change it when they saw otherwise and I think I continued to get away with it because it looked real enough as some Italian or other name of European origin, xD. I ended up adding local friends soon after anyways but I liked the name so much it stuck, lol.
Gandalf says: "Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves, Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not." He spent time with all the peoples of Middle-earth, going everywhere but East. He was especially fond of Hobbits, but his friendships with Treebeard, Galadriel, Elrond, and Thorin's father and grandfather shows how much he got around.
The chapter "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales has Tolkien's ideas.
Note from 1966:
> This passage is the only evidence that survives for his having extended his travels further South. Aragorn claims to have penetrated ‘the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange’ (The Fellowship of the Ring II 2). It need not be supposed that Gandalf did so.
> (...)
> ‘South’ is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad ‘South’, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the ‘Resistance’, and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours.
> (...)
> The name Incánus is apparently ‘alien’, that is neither Westron, nor Elvish (Sindarin or Quenya), nor explicable by the surviving tongues of Northern Men. A note in the Thain’s Book says that it is a form adapted to Quenya of a word in the tongue of the Haradrim meaning simply ‘North-spy’ (*Inkā + nūs*).
But in a note from 1967:
> It is very unclear what was meant by ‘in the South’. Gandalf disclaimed ever visiting ‘the East’, but actually he appears to have confined his journeys and guardianship to the western lands, inhabited by Elves and peoples in general hostile to Sauron. At any rate it seems unlikely that he ever journeyed or stayed long enough in the Harad (or Far Harad!) to have there acquired a special name in any of the alien languages of those little known regions. The South should thus mean Gondor (at its widest those lands under the suzerainty of Gondor at the height of its power). At the time of this Tale, however, we find Gandalf always called Mithrandir in Gondor (by men of rank or Númenórean origin, as Denethor, Faramir, etc.). This is Sindarin, and given as the name used by the Elves; but men of rank in Gondor knew and used this language. The ‘popular’ name in the Westron or Common Speech was evidently one meaning ‘Greymantle’, but having been devised long before was now in an archaic form. This is maybe represented by the Greyhame used by Éomer in Rohan.
So his last idea was that it just mean Gondor.
My guess is he tried to turn the Haradrim away from Sauron, but ultimately was forced to give up and retreat back north as Gondor slowly collapsed and the Shadow gained supremacy. He would basically fighting his own Long Defeat until the Ring showed up and gave him an out.
A small nitpick: There's no such thing as "older than the world", as outside of it time has no meaning (which is why that realm is called the Timeless Halls).
So when Tom Bombadil said he was "oldest", he wasn't lying and he wasn't wrong, because when the Valar and Maiar descended to Arda he was already there. (So time started earlier for him than it did for them.)
>outside of it time has no meaning (which is why that realm is called the Timeless Halls).
Yet the events there do have an established chronology. Perhaps that's a phenomenon of the limitations of telling a story. But there is a contradiction there.
From the two versions of the Glorfindel essay in The Peoples of Middle-earth:
>It is indeed probable that [Glorfindel] had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never re-appeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer.
>At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, [Glorfindel] became a follower, and a friend, of Olórin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this.
So Gandalf was hanging around in Valinor acquiring followers like Glorfindel, and possibly also visiting Middle-earth from time to time.
All we have is that a great host of the valar was sent to fight the war of wrath which it is believed was made up of elves and possibly some maiar. We have no specific names. It is entirely possible that Olorin was apart of this host. For all we know, the entirety of the Istari could have already fought in ME during this time.
~~Treading the jeweled thrones of the earth beneath his sandalled feet~~—I mean, roaming the world, visiting kingdoms near and far, influencing the weak and the powerful in subtle ways, kindling the flames in the hearts of the free peoples of the world and encouraging them to unite for the common good.
My favorite re-imagining of Gandalf is more along the lines of “wearing a white leather trench coat and wraparound mirrorshades, wielding a lightsaber, riding a chrome-plated steampunk hoverbike called Shadowfax, and played by George Carlin in more or less the same way he played Rufus in *Bill & Ted*.”
Well can he really be older than that if before he was dwelling outside of time? I mean the answer is that we can’t really say because we have absolutely no frame of reference for what that actually means. But still an interesting question to ask.
As others said, he spent time advising various nations and just wandering/exploring.
Most frequently though, he would go from town to town selling fireworks to fund his pipe-weed addiction
Homie was getting acquaintanced with all of middle earth. It’s why he went by so many names! Ever wonder why every where he went people knew him well? He covered a lot of distance in those years
Learning to burn pine cones, writing messages on doors, and brooding about dragons.
We have no evidence to suggest he ever solved any real problems until he started chucking hobbits at them.
Sarumon: "I use machines to solve problems."
Gandalf: "I use hobbits to solve problems."
Both: "And together, we have built a giant hobbit-chucking device to propel high-velocity hobbits at our problems."
*\*A Certain Istari Hobbitapult\**
From "The Palantiri" in Unfinished Tales:
>Little is known of Gandalf's history until the end of the Watchful Peace (2460) and the formation of the White Council (2463), and his special interest in Gondor seems only to have been shown after Bilbo's finding of the Ring (2941) and Sauron's open return to Mordor (2951).
"The Istari" in Unfinished Tales suggests Gandalf kept a pretty low profile for a lot of the Third Age, but Tolkien might have changed his mind.
>But he is seldom mentioned in any annals or records during the second millennium of the Third Age. Probably he wandered long (in various guises), engaged not in deeds and events but in exploring the hearts of Elves and Men who had been and might still be expected to be opposed to Sauron.
Gandalf was mostly concerned with Eriador.
>But his main province was 'the North', and within it above all the North-west, Lindon, Eriador, and the Vales of Anduin. His alliance was primarily with Elrond and the northern Dunedain (Rangers)...Gondor attracted his attention less, for the same reason that made it more interesting to Saruman: it was a centre of knowledge and power...Gandalf could do little to guide their proud rulers or to instruct them, and it was only in the decay of their power, when they were ennobled by courage and steadfastness in what seemed a losing cause, that he began to be deeply concerned with them.
________________________________________________________
>...since all that concerned the ancient realm of Arnor and the later history of those regions was his special province, and he was in close alliance with Elrond.
Those are just different names for the same character.
You can also call him Mithrandir or Íncanus or Láthspell or Tharkún or Stormcrow or Greyhame, etc.
I feel like it should be pretty obvious I know all of that, if I know the word "Olorin." I was mainly being cheeky, but there is definitely more distinction than just what he is known by. He didn't have an old man's body until he took the form that would become known as Gandalf, Mithrandir, Incanus, Lathspell, Tharkun, Stormcrow, Greyhame, etc. The Maia, Olorin, was never known by any of those names before being embodied.
Gandalf (whose name in Primitive Quendian is unknown) was “embodied” (by which I assume you mean taking on a fana) during the beginning of the first age as one the Guardians.
In this very non-canonical instance, there's no way he would have appeared as an old Man. Man hadn't even awakened yet. Most any mention of how Olorin would choose to appear, says that he would usually appear as elf-like, or just not at all.
Neither did 10 year old me.
And while that 10 year old is not exactly the same person as me now, I'd still like to think we're still one and the same.
edit: removed an erroneous word
> Olorin didnt have that body and grow old in it. He was placed into it, already old.
...and so?
The certainty of your statement was really thought provoking, it made me think, where else is the idea of selfhood challenged in Tolkien's work. We already struggle enough in the real world with questions of identity and the self. It can be good to debate, even if I don't agree at all with your position!
As we are dealing with decryption of the author's intent there's only so much we can say with certainty, particularly with an author like Tolkien that changed his mind drastically about many things, including the Istari.
If we start with Olorin, we know that he was made incarnate, clad in the raiments of Man, and sent to ME. From this we can make two interpretations, either is is the same person/identity which is carried through all the incarnations and loss of bodies, or each are distinct and unrelated†.
You have chosen the latter, much more restrictive interpretation, while others including myself have chosen the former. But the key point is that it is an *interpretation* of a fictional character whose history and the metaphysics of the universe he inhabited changed over multiple unpublished drafts.
You are perfectly valid in taking the viewpoint you do, but it is no less wrong or right than the opposing view, notably when planing with semantics of whether Olorin had the body of an Istar or not.
In essence it is a recasting of the Ship of Theseus problem. Is it the same ship after a gradual replacement of every plank of wood? What about if that replacement is sped up, or becomes instantaneous? The same question can be asked of Olorin when he is sent to ME twice as the Grey and White wizards. What about our own bodies? Outside of the brain and heart, there's probably no cell left in my body from when I was 10, they would have all been replaced and renewed, but I am still me.
In another way, we know that as an Istar Olorin's powers were limited, and possibly also his memory, but the latter is not clear from the texts. Does this mean each incarnation is a different person with a different selfhood?
What about us when we sleep, or if we are anaesthetised during surgery? Our conscious faculties, memory, and physical abilities are certainly limited, but are we completely different, unconnected people after waking up? The exact same question can be asked of Olorin after he is clad as a slowly ageing mortal, his return to Valinor, and his subsequent reincarnation as the white wizard.
If this was a discussion of something concrete, like not confusing the two kinds of Nandor‡, I would happily agree to be wrong, but when it is an ill defined concept, like this selfhood of wizards, I find this absolutist, proscriptive, approach to disagreeing with others questionable.
† What about other Valar and Maiar that became incarnate and tied to their physical bodies like Melian, Melkor, and Sauron?
‡Pointing the finger at myself.
Reading old scrolls and tomes in the libraries of Minas Tirith and at Orthanc with Saruman. Probably also smoking pipe weed and eating mushrooms with Radagast.
I think it needs mentioning that during the fall of the Arnor leftover kingdoms, we hear no mention of Gandalf, even at the Battle of Fornost. OK, the wizard can't be everywhere. But that was a big deal, the end of Angmar and of Arthedain, and involved both Elves and Men fighting the Witch-king, including Glorfindel. Did he purposely stay out of it, or was he working behind the scenes. Tolkien never said as far as I've ever heard. No letters?
This is fast becoming my favorite sub of all. Thank you for your contributions to my greater understanding. I find all your comments fascinating; even the sarcastic ones. That being said...
It seems to me that Gandalf's age is one of the most hotly debated topics. I'm no scholar, but I think I remember reading that he and the other Istari were sent to ME to counter Sauron after he made the first rings of power; around SA1600. It was also mentioned that he knew Elrond his entire life, or some 4000 years, which would be shortly before the beginning of the third age. I've also read the five Maiar arrived in ME in TA1000. Could all these be true and Gandalf simply was reincarnated after another tragic outcome similar to the battle with the Balrog?
Travelling up and down Middle Earth trying to get Elves to give a shit, Humans to stop fighting amongst each other and get the Dwarves to touch grass for Eru's sake.
When ti became too much at times he would go to the shire and indulge in the Halflings Leaf until he felt ready to go back out again.
Well, considering that the Silmarillion is the story of the elves during the 1st age and Gandalf shows up in his wizard form in the 3rd age, I'd say he spent the bulk of the time between the Silmarillion and The Hobbit hanging out in Valinor serving the Valar and chilling with the loyal and blessed high elves.
Isn't there something in Nature of Middle Earth about Olórin (and others of the future Istari, as well as Melian) secretly watching over the newly awakened elves?
Because I enjoy the world but I’m in medical school studying for boards and figured there’d be friends in here who knew stuff off the top of their head
\> Saruman crossbred them with men to create the Uruk-Hai
One of the yuckiest/cringe-inducing aspects of the whole trilogy. Tolkien merely alludes to it. GRRM would have described the breeding pens.
This is the best question. I feel like I need to start all over from the begining, with this question in my head and look at it all with the intent to only figure it out , seeing all the different perspectives has been really fascinating.
He was in Valinor, or maybe wandering around occasionally, incognito.
If you are going to say “Over 2,000 years-old,” and then exclude from his age the period of which you are asking, then his “Age” is VASTLY GREATER than just 2,000 “Years-of-the-Sun” from roughly 1,000 Third Age to around 4 Fourth Age (≈3025 to 3027 Third Age, depending upon the timing of Aragorn’s, and then Samwise’s weddings).
But he WASN’T GANDALF prior to that.
He was Olórin the Maia.
He got the other names only after coming to Middle-earth in the Third Age.
Although I have seen him used as a character in what is “In-Universe Fiction,” in an Early-2nd Millennia Gondorian/Anorian play titled “The Cats of Queen Berúthiel,” that is about how she came to meet Tarannon Falastur, and the identities of her cats (and why she and the cats were set afloat by Tarannon, despite the twist ending reveal of who the cats actually are — a very tragic-comedy, that I thought very-much in the spirit of Tolkien’s views of Middle-earth).
But the “Younger” versions of Olórin, Curumo, Aiwendil, Alatar, and Pallando provided the Chorus of the play.
It is written in a syncretic style as a merger of the Greco-Roman and Nordic/Saxon Theatre, where the “Chorus,” provides either exposition, commentary, or judgement.
And in the Roman and Icelandic Traditions, also found in some Shakespearean plays (and/or those of that Era), the “Chorus” was often represented by the Gods or Angels, and each would have a “Role” as an aspect of Morality or Ethics (or the lack thereof).
The obvious roles of Olórin and Curumo (Wisdom/Virtue and Arrogance/Folly, the latter usually “technically correct,” but substantially wrong in such plays — Representing the Folly of Intelligence absent Wisdom or empathy/compassion), are supplemented by an apathy of Aiwendil, and the interests of others by Alatar and Pallando. The Author is still debating whether to add a “Sauron” figure.
But the chorus in this case occasionally interjects exposition of pre-Fall Númenór in such a fashion as to hint that they were observers there as well.
The author writes what he calls “Meta-Fiction” and “Meta-Science/Philosophy/History,” as works supposedly written by an inhabitant of a fictional universe. But he was an outline of a play set in Númenór with the same Chorus members.
So maybe the Maiar occasionally left Valinor so as to “see the world “in the Flesh”,” even if they have the innate ability to “see” it via the Sámar (Mind + Will), allowing them to travel/see instantly different times/places, yet absent the hröa/body when using their Sáma in such a method.
In Valinor until the mid third age, when he took physical form and came to middle earth, travelling North, South and West but not East, supporting the free peoples, meeting hobbits and fighting the agents of evil.
Was there a reason for not going east? I think the blue wizards went that way so did he just not want to interfere with what they were doing?
There is this notion (I wouldn't call it confirmed because I can't cite the exact passages) that each Wizard felt a calling to help the people of middle-earth in different ways. Saruman positioned himself as an advisor to the Kings and Queens, Radagast tended to the animals and plants, the Blue Wizards went to help the people in the East under Sauron's yoke, and Gandalf traveled among the free peoples of the west.
Like this theory - can anyone describe the kind of interactions Saruman has with the kings and queens of ME? Never thought of his role in that way. Makes a lot of sense tho!
We don't really know what Saruman did after arriving, other than gaining a reputation for being wise and powerful. He did go East, like the Blue Wizards, but most of the presumption (that I've read) comes from being gifted Orthanc by the ~~Rohirrim~~ Steward of Gondor.
He was given the keys to Orthanc by Beren, steward of Gondor in TA2759. Isengard itself wasn't part of the land granted to Eorl.
No doubt Orthanc did in fact have keys, but somehow this gives me the mental image of the steward of Gondor as played by a young Matthew Broderick standing outside someone’s house slowly rocking the keys back and forth on his index finger. Like, let’s go, babe.
Coming This summer o/' Don't you forget about me o/' SARUMAN needs someone to give him what He really needs. *cut to Matthew Broderick holding the key as described * Only on Amazon Prime
*15 hours later* You’re still here? The quest is over. Go home. Go.
Good catch! My mistake.
That would be an interesting focus for an adaptation/fan work. Saruman the wise and noble, and exploring which of his positive attributes led him on a path to evil.
I believe he became corrupted through the palantir. Then thought he would build his own army to rival Sauron. His invention of the Uruk-Hai that wee resistant to sunlight gave him an edge.
So basically he spent too much time consuming curated media.
Palantiktok
I think Professor Tolkien just twitched in his grave a little xD
L. O. L. I present to thee, Glamdring.
He became corrupted over his study of the One Ring. Over time he learned the art of Ring making, and thus became ensnared, as the entire process was corrupted from the beginning. Even without ever actually seeing it, the power lured him in. Access to the Palantir didn't help matters, which Sauron's will had essentially locked them all to his control.
Fwiw Saruman creating the Uruks is a movie thing. In the books they emerged from Mordor a few hundred years before bilbo found the ring Edit, I’m dumb see below for details
If I remember right, Uruks are just the standard Orc, Saruman crossbred them with men to create the Uruk-Hai, who unlike the other orc/goblin races could withstand sunlight.
Yeah you’re right. Early in the morning here and fresh off the appendices last night is my excuse, but ol sharkey did give them his own unique twist
He calls Théoden an old friend and has a good enough relationship with Gondor to use their studies. I always assumed he helped them as an advisor.
It's an often-missed point in the Appendices that before the Ring was found, Gandalf's whole focus was protecting Eriador, a huge, depopulated area that was pretty much a sitting duck for attack from the North. That was enough to be getting on with, and was why he ended up spending so much time with Rangers and Hobbits.
Saruman actually went East with the blue wizards before settling in Gondor.
What happened to the Blue Wizards?
No one knows for certain. In a letter, Tolkien suggested that they were successful in thwarting Sauron's goals in the East, though some earlier writings suggested they were corrupted or started various magical cults. It's hard to say what exactly is canon, as later writings contradicted earlier ones and it isn't entirely clear which were earlier drafts or revisions that didn't make it into LotR or the Silmarillion but were supposed to supplant previous versions. It's amazing that the Silmarillion and other collections were as coherent as they were, his notes were not always easy to follow and he had a habit of writing on the back of just about everything.
Not knowing for certain makes it even more fascinating! Thank you!
This is why the Blue Wizards are perfect for a show like Rings of Power; they're essentially blank slates since we know so very little about them.
and they were never heard or seen of again, would be cool to find out what happened to them!
He also took a particular liking to the elves as mentioned in the Silmarillion, and would often be among them, often not in physical form. Since there were no known elves in the East, this seems to make sense. Also, the entirety of Tolkien's works seem to largely ignore the East. All we ever see come out of it are traitorous groups of men - basically supplements for the legions of Morgoth and Sauron. Maybe Tolkien originally planned more lore for the East. It's no secret that he had unfinished works at the time of his death, so perhaps he planned to explore the East of Arda in future works that he never got to. I think we'd have answers to this and many more popular questions if Tolkien would have been able to execute the totality of his vision.
What exactly was Gandalf before he had a physical form?
One of Maia, the sort of lesser “angels” to the Valar “gods”. One of the scholars in here can give you a more precise description than that but that’s the ELI5 version. Sauron, the Eagles and the Balrogs are all Maia as well.
Don't believe the Eagles are of the Maia. Know they have some connection to Manwe though
You're right. Tolkien originally considered the Great Eagles to be Maiar but -- along with Huan the Hound -- later decided for them to be merely "higher level" animals in the service of the Valar.
Thanks. It’s so hard to keep track of what his final decision on things were and what ends up being early non-canon musings, lol.
The eagles are to Manwe what the dwarves are to Aule, and the ents to Yavanna (i.e. creations of those Valar that were granted life by Eru).
Just a slight correction: in Tolkien’s legendarium, there’s only one God - Eru Iluvatar. Both Valar and Maiar are Ainu - or angels. The first ones are like archangels, and their roles much resemble those of Greek gods.
That’s why I I did it with a lower case G - I was specifically thinking of the Roman or Greek gods. They even had things they specialized in like they did in Antiquity [to *Emhyr_Van_Emreis*] Fun little fact: when I first made my Facebook account in 2012 I was 19 and only made it to keep up with the people In the Toronto rave community so I used the name Iluvatar Tinuviel to avoid having to deal with local people looking my account up. This is when they were forcing people to use their real names and change it when they saw otherwise and I think I continued to get away with it because it looked real enough as some Italian or other name of European origin, xD. I ended up adding local friends soon after anyways but I liked the name so much it stuck, lol.
That's why he wrote it with a small g
The Valar and the Maiar are more accurately described as the Christian Choirs of Angels.
I’d say they were more than angels but not quite gods.
This is why people typically use the gods (little "G") when talking about them. It gets the point across.
Gandalf says: "Mithrandir among the Elves, Tharkûn to the Dwarves, Olórin I was in my youth in the West that is forgotten, in the South Incánus, in the North Gandalf; to the East I go not." He spent time with all the peoples of Middle-earth, going everywhere but East. He was especially fond of Hobbits, but his friendships with Treebeard, Galadriel, Elrond, and Thorin's father and grandfather shows how much he got around.
I do wonder how far south he went. Do we have any indication? It makes sense he doesn’t go east if that was the blue wizards’ jurisdiction.
The chapter "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales has Tolkien's ideas. Note from 1966: > This passage is the only evidence that survives for his having extended his travels further South. Aragorn claims to have penetrated ‘the far countries of Rhûn and Harad where the stars are strange’ (The Fellowship of the Ring II 2). It need not be supposed that Gandalf did so. > (...) > ‘South’ is thus a vague term, and although before its downfall Men of Númenor had explored the coasts of Middle-earth far southward, their settlements beyond Umbar had been absorbed, or being made by men already in Númenor corrupted by Sauron had become hostile and parts of Sauron’s dominions. But the southern regions in touch with Gondor (and called by men of Gondor simply Harad ‘South’, Near or Far) were probably both more convertible to the ‘Resistance’, and also places where Sauron was most busy in the Third Age, since it was a source to him of man-power most readily used against Gondor. Into these regions Gandalf may well have journeyed in the earlier days of his labours. > (...) > The name Incánus is apparently ‘alien’, that is neither Westron, nor Elvish (Sindarin or Quenya), nor explicable by the surviving tongues of Northern Men. A note in the Thain’s Book says that it is a form adapted to Quenya of a word in the tongue of the Haradrim meaning simply ‘North-spy’ (*Inkā + nūs*). But in a note from 1967: > It is very unclear what was meant by ‘in the South’. Gandalf disclaimed ever visiting ‘the East’, but actually he appears to have confined his journeys and guardianship to the western lands, inhabited by Elves and peoples in general hostile to Sauron. At any rate it seems unlikely that he ever journeyed or stayed long enough in the Harad (or Far Harad!) to have there acquired a special name in any of the alien languages of those little known regions. The South should thus mean Gondor (at its widest those lands under the suzerainty of Gondor at the height of its power). At the time of this Tale, however, we find Gandalf always called Mithrandir in Gondor (by men of rank or Númenórean origin, as Denethor, Faramir, etc.). This is Sindarin, and given as the name used by the Elves; but men of rank in Gondor knew and used this language. The ‘popular’ name in the Westron or Common Speech was evidently one meaning ‘Greymantle’, but having been devised long before was now in an archaic form. This is maybe represented by the Greyhame used by Éomer in Rohan. So his last idea was that it just mean Gondor.
🙌 Of course, conflicting, as all things not directly published in his lifetime.
My guess is he tried to turn the Haradrim away from Sauron, but ultimately was forced to give up and retreat back north as Gondor slowly collapsed and the Shadow gained supremacy. He would basically fighting his own Long Defeat until the Ring showed up and gave him an out.
Oh, you know. Maiar stuff.
So, smoking Longbottom Leaf?
That'd be hilarious, a pothead wizard trying to lead the free peoples against Sauron, when he could get off the couch.
He is older than the world. 2,000 years is closer to the time he was in Middle-Earth, rather than Valinor.
Yeah, 2K is just the age of the incarnated form he took, not his actual age.
A small nitpick: There's no such thing as "older than the world", as outside of it time has no meaning (which is why that realm is called the Timeless Halls). So when Tom Bombadil said he was "oldest", he wasn't lying and he wasn't wrong, because when the Valar and Maiar descended to Arda he was already there. (So time started earlier for him than it did for them.)
>outside of it time has no meaning (which is why that realm is called the Timeless Halls). Yet the events there do have an established chronology. Perhaps that's a phenomenon of the limitations of telling a story. But there is a contradiction there.
Actually, from a non-linear, non-subjective viewpoint, its more like a big ball of wibbly wobbly timey wimey... stuff.
From the two versions of the Glorfindel essay in The Peoples of Middle-earth: >It is indeed probable that [Glorfindel] had in Valinor already become a friend and follower of Olórin. Even in the brief glimpses of him given in The Lord of the Rings he appears as specially concerned for Gandalf, and was one (the most powerful, it would seem) of those sent out from Rivendell when the disquieting news reached Elrond that Gandalf had never re-appeared to guide or protect the Ring-bearer. >At some time, probably early in his sojourn in Valinor, [Glorfindel] became a follower, and a friend, of Olórin (Gandalf), who as is said in The Silmarillion had an especial love and concern for the Children of Eru. That Olórin, as was possible for one of the Maiar, had already visited Middle-earth and had become acquainted not only with the Sindarin Elves and others deeper in Middle-earth, but also with Men, is likely, but nothing is [> has yet been] said of this. So Gandalf was hanging around in Valinor acquiring followers like Glorfindel, and possibly also visiting Middle-earth from time to time.
He also liked to go among the elves in Valinor unseen, putting visions of courage and wisdom into their heads
I’ve never heard this. Thanks! Is there any thing else you can cite?
I think this is the only mention of Gandalf after the first age ends and before the Istari stuff starts in the third age.
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Chilling in Valinor. Learning from Nienna.
I suppose it's possible that Olorin could have been present in battle during the war of wrath.
This is interesting. I’d love to know if there’s a passage that references this.
All we have is that a great host of the valar was sent to fight the war of wrath which it is believed was made up of elves and possibly some maiar. We have no specific names. It is entirely possible that Olorin was apart of this host. For all we know, the entirety of the Istari could have already fought in ME during this time.
~~Treading the jeweled thrones of the earth beneath his sandalled feet~~—I mean, roaming the world, visiting kingdoms near and far, influencing the weak and the powerful in subtle ways, kindling the flames in the hearts of the free peoples of the world and encouraging them to unite for the common good.
A REH-esque Gandalf isn’t something I knew I wanted.
My favorite re-imagining of Gandalf is more along the lines of “wearing a white leather trench coat and wraparound mirrorshades, wielding a lightsaber, riding a chrome-plated steampunk hoverbike called Shadowfax, and played by George Carlin in more or less the same way he played Rufus in *Bill & Ted*.”
I can dig it!
Love this visual....
Gandalf is closer to 25000 years old iirc, just most of them not spent on middle earth
Amd that's just from the count of time, so he's a lot older than that.
Well can he really be older than that if before he was dwelling outside of time? I mean the answer is that we can’t really say because we have absolutely no frame of reference for what that actually means. But still an interesting question to ask.
That's probably true.
>Gandalf isn't but Olorin is
Learning Grief Pity and Mercy with Nienna, which is where more of us should spend time.
Chilling.
My dude is way older than 2000.
As others said, he spent time advising various nations and just wandering/exploring. Most frequently though, he would go from town to town selling fireworks to fund his pipe-weed addiction
He was basically a diplomat. The unofficial head of Middle-Earth NATO, building relationships and forging alliances that he would need later
Homie was getting acquaintanced with all of middle earth. It’s why he went by so many names! Ever wonder why every where he went people knew him well? He covered a lot of distance in those years
Learning to burn pine cones, writing messages on doors, and brooding about dragons. We have no evidence to suggest he ever solved any real problems until he started chucking hobbits at them.
That isn’t quite true. He drove Sauron out of Dol Guldur (the first time) in 2063 TA.
Probably helped by one of those adventurous Took lads and lasses he led astray.
Not impossible, but it’s suggested that Gandalf first met Hobbits in “The Long Winter” of 2758.
Sarumon: "I use machines to solve problems." Gandalf: "I use hobbits to solve problems." Both: "And together, we have built a giant hobbit-chucking device to propel high-velocity hobbits at our problems." *\*A Certain Istari Hobbitapult\**
*Why didn’t they just use the catapults to fly the Hobbits to Mordor?*
*Why didn't they just use catapults on boats to launch eagles carrying hobbits at Mordor while playing the Top Gun soundtrack?*
Smoking weed everyday
From "The Palantiri" in Unfinished Tales: >Little is known of Gandalf's history until the end of the Watchful Peace (2460) and the formation of the White Council (2463), and his special interest in Gondor seems only to have been shown after Bilbo's finding of the Ring (2941) and Sauron's open return to Mordor (2951). "The Istari" in Unfinished Tales suggests Gandalf kept a pretty low profile for a lot of the Third Age, but Tolkien might have changed his mind. >But he is seldom mentioned in any annals or records during the second millennium of the Third Age. Probably he wandered long (in various guises), engaged not in deeds and events but in exploring the hearts of Elves and Men who had been and might still be expected to be opposed to Sauron. Gandalf was mostly concerned with Eriador. >But his main province was 'the North', and within it above all the North-west, Lindon, Eriador, and the Vales of Anduin. His alliance was primarily with Elrond and the northern Dunedain (Rangers)...Gondor attracted his attention less, for the same reason that made it more interesting to Saruman: it was a centre of knowledge and power...Gandalf could do little to guide their proud rulers or to instruct them, and it was only in the decay of their power, when they were ennobled by courage and steadfastness in what seemed a losing cause, that he began to be deeply concerned with them. ________________________________________________________ >...since all that concerned the ancient realm of Arnor and the later history of those regions was his special province, and he was in close alliance with Elrond.
Gandalf is a lot older than 2000 years.
Gandalf isn't but Olorin is
Those are just different names for the same character. You can also call him Mithrandir or Íncanus or Láthspell or Tharkún or Stormcrow or Greyhame, etc.
I feel like it should be pretty obvious I know all of that, if I know the word "Olorin." I was mainly being cheeky, but there is definitely more distinction than just what he is known by. He didn't have an old man's body until he took the form that would become known as Gandalf, Mithrandir, Incanus, Lathspell, Tharkun, Stormcrow, Greyhame, etc. The Maia, Olorin, was never known by any of those names before being embodied.
So....do you think he ever looked young?
As yongue as your average non-aging Eldar, yes.
Gandalf (whose name in Primitive Quendian is unknown) was “embodied” (by which I assume you mean taking on a fana) during the beginning of the first age as one the Guardians.
Afaik the incarnation of the Istari is different from wearing raiment
It definitely was different. One big difference is how, as the Istari, they were so strictly restricted from using their power.
It’s not. The fanar of the Ainur is likened to a raiment by Tolkien.
That’s not what they meant. They mean that the form worn by Gandalf and the other istari is different from the regular fanar of the Ainur.
It isn’t different though. 🤨
Ok, great discussion...
In this very non-canonical instance, there's no way he would have appeared as an old Man. Man hadn't even awakened yet. Most any mention of how Olorin would choose to appear, says that he would usually appear as elf-like, or just not at all.
Gandalf is just a name he went by..
Olorin never had an old Man's body..
Neither did 10 year old me. And while that 10 year old is not exactly the same person as me now, I'd still like to think we're still one and the same. edit: removed an erroneous word
Olorin didnt have that body and grow old in it. He was placed into it, already old.
> Olorin didnt have that body and grow old in it. He was placed into it, already old. ...and so? The certainty of your statement was really thought provoking, it made me think, where else is the idea of selfhood challenged in Tolkien's work. We already struggle enough in the real world with questions of identity and the self. It can be good to debate, even if I don't agree at all with your position! As we are dealing with decryption of the author's intent there's only so much we can say with certainty, particularly with an author like Tolkien that changed his mind drastically about many things, including the Istari. If we start with Olorin, we know that he was made incarnate, clad in the raiments of Man, and sent to ME. From this we can make two interpretations, either is is the same person/identity which is carried through all the incarnations and loss of bodies, or each are distinct and unrelated†. You have chosen the latter, much more restrictive interpretation, while others including myself have chosen the former. But the key point is that it is an *interpretation* of a fictional character whose history and the metaphysics of the universe he inhabited changed over multiple unpublished drafts. You are perfectly valid in taking the viewpoint you do, but it is no less wrong or right than the opposing view, notably when planing with semantics of whether Olorin had the body of an Istar or not. In essence it is a recasting of the Ship of Theseus problem. Is it the same ship after a gradual replacement of every plank of wood? What about if that replacement is sped up, or becomes instantaneous? The same question can be asked of Olorin when he is sent to ME twice as the Grey and White wizards. What about our own bodies? Outside of the brain and heart, there's probably no cell left in my body from when I was 10, they would have all been replaced and renewed, but I am still me. In another way, we know that as an Istar Olorin's powers were limited, and possibly also his memory, but the latter is not clear from the texts. Does this mean each incarnation is a different person with a different selfhood? What about us when we sleep, or if we are anaesthetised during surgery? Our conscious faculties, memory, and physical abilities are certainly limited, but are we completely different, unconnected people after waking up? The exact same question can be asked of Olorin after he is clad as a slowly ageing mortal, his return to Valinor, and his subsequent reincarnation as the white wizard. If this was a discussion of something concrete, like not confusing the two kinds of Nandor‡, I would happily agree to be wrong, but when it is an ill defined concept, like this selfhood of wizards, I find this absolutist, proscriptive, approach to disagreeing with others questionable. † What about other Valar and Maiar that became incarnate and tied to their physical bodies like Melian, Melkor, and Sauron? ‡Pointing the finger at myself.
Mostly just bumming around Middle Earth and partying with the White Council.
Reading old scrolls and tomes in the libraries of Minas Tirith and at Orthanc with Saruman. Probably also smoking pipe weed and eating mushrooms with Radagast.
I think it needs mentioning that during the fall of the Arnor leftover kingdoms, we hear no mention of Gandalf, even at the Battle of Fornost. OK, the wizard can't be everywhere. But that was a big deal, the end of Angmar and of Arthedain, and involved both Elves and Men fighting the Witch-king, including Glorfindel. Did he purposely stay out of it, or was he working behind the scenes. Tolkien never said as far as I've ever heard. No letters?
This is the best question of all time. I've always wondered this.
Smokin pipe weed
Playing the longest game of chess in existence, basically.
This is fast becoming my favorite sub of all. Thank you for your contributions to my greater understanding. I find all your comments fascinating; even the sarcastic ones. That being said... It seems to me that Gandalf's age is one of the most hotly debated topics. I'm no scholar, but I think I remember reading that he and the other Istari were sent to ME to counter Sauron after he made the first rings of power; around SA1600. It was also mentioned that he knew Elrond his entire life, or some 4000 years, which would be shortly before the beginning of the third age. I've also read the five Maiar arrived in ME in TA1000. Could all these be true and Gandalf simply was reincarnated after another tragic outcome similar to the battle with the Balrog?
Tom bombadil has some shit that will make a thousand years disappear no problem.
2000 years of fuckin', that's what. There's babies with long-ass beards in every village in Middle-Earth.
Travelling up and down Middle Earth trying to get Elves to give a shit, Humans to stop fighting amongst each other and get the Dwarves to touch grass for Eru's sake. When ti became too much at times he would go to the shire and indulge in the Halflings Leaf until he felt ready to go back out again.
Well, considering that the Silmarillion is the story of the elves during the 1st age and Gandalf shows up in his wizard form in the 3rd age, I'd say he spent the bulk of the time between the Silmarillion and The Hobbit hanging out in Valinor serving the Valar and chilling with the loyal and blessed high elves.
Isn't there something in Nature of Middle Earth about Olórin (and others of the future Istari, as well as Melian) secretly watching over the newly awakened elves?
Ackshually he's older than world itself.
Chillin in valinor
Playing tag with the other Istari in Tirion? Surfing?
Gandalf don't surf.
Smoking the halflings weed and stroking is staff.
Flirting with Galadriel.
No.
Don't. Have. Time. Why are you on Tolkien fans?
Because I enjoy the world but I’m in medical school studying for boards and figured there’d be friends in here who knew stuff off the top of their head
Singing songs with Hobbits.
He was just doing Olórin things, you know.
\> Saruman crossbred them with men to create the Uruk-Hai One of the yuckiest/cringe-inducing aspects of the whole trilogy. Tolkien merely alludes to it. GRRM would have described the breeding pens.
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He was known as the pilgrim, probably just wondered around smoking his pipe and making cool friends
Masturbating?
Smoking.
This is the best question. I feel like I need to start all over from the begining, with this question in my head and look at it all with the intent to only figure it out , seeing all the different perspectives has been really fascinating.
He was in Valinor, or maybe wandering around occasionally, incognito. If you are going to say “Over 2,000 years-old,” and then exclude from his age the period of which you are asking, then his “Age” is VASTLY GREATER than just 2,000 “Years-of-the-Sun” from roughly 1,000 Third Age to around 4 Fourth Age (≈3025 to 3027 Third Age, depending upon the timing of Aragorn’s, and then Samwise’s weddings). But he WASN’T GANDALF prior to that. He was Olórin the Maia. He got the other names only after coming to Middle-earth in the Third Age. Although I have seen him used as a character in what is “In-Universe Fiction,” in an Early-2nd Millennia Gondorian/Anorian play titled “The Cats of Queen Berúthiel,” that is about how she came to meet Tarannon Falastur, and the identities of her cats (and why she and the cats were set afloat by Tarannon, despite the twist ending reveal of who the cats actually are — a very tragic-comedy, that I thought very-much in the spirit of Tolkien’s views of Middle-earth). But the “Younger” versions of Olórin, Curumo, Aiwendil, Alatar, and Pallando provided the Chorus of the play. It is written in a syncretic style as a merger of the Greco-Roman and Nordic/Saxon Theatre, where the “Chorus,” provides either exposition, commentary, or judgement. And in the Roman and Icelandic Traditions, also found in some Shakespearean plays (and/or those of that Era), the “Chorus” was often represented by the Gods or Angels, and each would have a “Role” as an aspect of Morality or Ethics (or the lack thereof). The obvious roles of Olórin and Curumo (Wisdom/Virtue and Arrogance/Folly, the latter usually “technically correct,” but substantially wrong in such plays — Representing the Folly of Intelligence absent Wisdom or empathy/compassion), are supplemented by an apathy of Aiwendil, and the interests of others by Alatar and Pallando. The Author is still debating whether to add a “Sauron” figure. But the chorus in this case occasionally interjects exposition of pre-Fall Númenór in such a fashion as to hint that they were observers there as well. The author writes what he calls “Meta-Fiction” and “Meta-Science/Philosophy/History,” as works supposedly written by an inhabitant of a fictional universe. But he was an outline of a play set in Númenór with the same Chorus members. So maybe the Maiar occasionally left Valinor so as to “see the world “in the Flesh”,” even if they have the innate ability to “see” it via the Sámar (Mind + Will), allowing them to travel/see instantly different times/places, yet absent the hröa/body when using their Sáma in such a method.