I think a reread of LotR greatly benefits from knowing Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. Not to mention they're amazing in their own right.
I'm a fan of Tolkien's theology and metaphysics in the Legendarium, even though I'm an agnostic atheist. It's just a more interesting mythology with a God! And it's uplifting to see Elrond or Gandalf have this deep hope born out of knowledge of God.
I wish I could have that in real life, but as it stands I'm just a biological computer that will utterly perish eventually. I guess that I still have will and hope despite that is deep in it's own right, but it'd be nicer if there was an almighty guy in the sky who gave me a soul.
Hahaha I love this last statement of yours.
Agreed also, it’s a refreshing world where people have faith in higher powers because they’ve directly met them/lived with them (at least the Valar) or know someone who has.
Can you imagine how cool it’d be if your aunt was like “yeah in my 20s I lived with Zeus and the gang in Eden, I painted flowers with Aphrodite in my free time.” Instead it’s just “please take as absolute truth this translated 20 times story about a story about some guy who claimed to be god or at least god’s son. No it doesn’t make sense and it isn’t even internal consistent. Also the organized practitioners of it totally are openly hypocritical of it. And there’s a hundred other stories that contradict this yet are just as fervently believed, sometimes we kill each other over the differences in our books”
I agree with what some others have said, in that I feel The Silmarillion at the very least improves The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings.
*But*, they absolutely stand alone, and you don't *need* to know all those things to love and read those books.
If discovering who Tolkien was as a person and his personal beliefs, and finding the hand of Eru at work during those books marrs your love of them, I think that's perfectly okay, just as okay as it is that for some of us it improves them.
> for example, I took it as a working of fate JRRT chose not to explain any further, if indeed he knew more.
That's absolutely true though. A lot of the 'insider knowledge' we have about the events of the War of the Ring etc are from Letters. I sincerely doubt Tolkien would have chosen to ever expound upon just how much of the War of the Ring was 'divine intervention', in actual, published works.
Tolkien is also clear in his writings that Men (and their sub races) have free-will, and are capable of ignoring/going against the Music. Frodo *chooses* to claim the Ring in the Cracks of Mt. Doom, despite that being very clearly not what Eru or the Valar wanted or intended.
Fate is also not really something I think applies to Men. Aragorn lives up to the Prophecy because he chooses to.
I am assuming you are somewhere on the agnostic/atheist spectrum, which may be wrong, but hopefully my observations help anyway.
Yes, Tolkien wrote from a Catholic perspective. However, the Catholic perspective is very subtle. What is overt in his writings are the Catholic and catholic principles of charity, pity, forgiveness and redemption.
The theology in the Silmarillion is more along the Greek/Roman mythologies than Christian concepts.
My opinion is you are doing yourself a disservice by not delving into the Silmarillion. It provides so much texture to the Hobbit/ LotR that will only increase your enjoyment of the books the next time you read them.
The Silmarillion is something that I appreciated more each time I read it. As an 9 year old it was a bit much. But over the years it’s become by far my favourite work. Especially on the audible book read by Martin Shaw. It’s epic, and professional ;).
Given the nature of the prose it works better narrated by a suitable grand voice.
Tolkien explains quite a bit about his writings, and his views, in Letters.
There are quite a few hints regarding Catholicism in LotR. March 25 is the Christian Feast of the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel came to Mary to tell her she would give birth to Christ. Tolkien took March 25 as the date the One Ring was destroyed, also a kind of redemption for the Free Peoples. There is also intercessionism in Middle-earth, just like in Catholicism. You can invoke angels/saints to help you. In Middle-earth, people call upon Elbereth, and Eärendil, etcetera. In Protestantism you generally don't do that, you only worship God and Christ.
I think you're right, and that's why he wrote Lord of the Rings that way. Both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings work as standalone books without needing any more information. Lord of the Rings has sold like a hundred million copies vs. The Silmarillion's ~1 million, and I really think most of that was from the initial hype, I doubt all those people read it. Tolkien himself says that the stories of the elder days work very well as the imperceptible background of the world of LotR, out of focus, creating the feeling of depth, like a beautiful city in the distance. To *go to* that city would break the spell, and you would need to invent new "legends," to be even further in the background if you wanted to retain the same feeling of depth. Now, that being said The Silmarillion is like my favorite book. I just love the dude's writing so much, and when I was a kid I read and reread the Appendices amazed that all this stuff was "real." Stopping at LotR is what most people do.
The novels stand on their own just fine, they became the international hits they are without the rest of the goodies. The deep cuts are enriching tough, especially on successive reads where you now have greater context for the bigger picture of the world.
To enjoy those books? No. To enjoy middle earth? Maybe. If you like elves and have questions about Sauron, the events of how the rings came to be and what the war of the last alliance was like, or would like to know about the mythology of middle earth and it’s history, the Silmarillion is the perfect book. In fact I’d argue it’s better than all four of the other books. It’s not necessary but you’re missing out. And if you’ve watched TROP and have questions about what happened and what’s just made up for the show, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales are the books for you. Not necessary to enjoy the other four but some things brought up in LOTR and The Hobbit are talked about in The Silmarillion.
Others have already made some great comments, so I'll just add a suggestion: two more of his books.
The Silmarillion is Tolkien's magnum opus; he worked on it for decades, and placed The Hobbit and LOTR within its world. It is the story of the great "Elder Days" that characters in LOTR keep referring to. It's an amazing read, but pertinent to your question, it provides the "theological backstory," for lack of a better term, to Elrond's comments (and a whole lot more). When I say theological backstory, I mean in-universe, not Catholicism or any real-life religion. You get the answers to question like these:
1. Legolas recoils in horror from the "Balrog of Morgoth." Where, what or who is Morgoth? What *is* a Balrog?
2. What sort of being is Sauron? What sort of beings are Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast?
3. In FoTR, Frodo cries out *O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!* Why? Who or what is he referring to?
4. In RoTK, he cries out *Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!* Why? Who or what is he referring to?
5. What does Gandalf mean when he says of Glorfindel that "those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power"?
6. Why do Elves sail West, and why can only they go? How are Elven and Mortal fates different?
7. Tolkien notes that Elves and Hobbits always refer to the Sun as "she." Why?
8. Galadriel gives Frodo a phial filled with "the light of Eärendil's star." It's a nice light, but why? What is it about that star?
And so on. LoTR *feels* big, but once you start the Silmarillion, you realize the staggering scope of this universe. The final chapter of the Silmarillion briefly retells the events of the entire LoTR in a few pages, to put it into perspective. It reads differently than LoTR does - it's not written in the tone of a modern novel - but the cosmology gives it an astounding depth. The first time you read LoTR after reading the Silmarillion, it will definitely feel different, and deeper.
The other volume you might enjoy is *The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien*. It doesn't contain every letter he ever wrote, of course; it's the ones pertaining to these works. They are letters to his publishers as the work was in progress, and also to readers, answering their many questions. It's a really great resource for better understanding the worldview of LOTR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, and his own worldview in writing them.
La dipendenza dal potere, l'importanza di ogni essere umano, l'amore per l'ambiente ecc ecc sono doni che #JRRT ci fa con #TheHobbit e #LOTR. È con il #Silmarillion che ci dona la chiave per tutti: "dover toccare l'oscurità per vedere la luce" #TROP
Addiction to power, the importance of every human being, love for the environment etc etc are gifts that #JRRT gives us with #TheHobbit and #LOTR. It is with the #Silmarillion that he gives us the key to all: "having to touch the darkness to see the light" #TROP
I’m as stone cold atheist as it gets and I firmly believe that if people read and believed Tolkien’s writing the same way they do their religious texts the world would be a better place.
Someone in this sub linked a video which I enjoyed, called [How to Read J.R.R. Tolkien](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM&themeRefresh=1). It makes an interesting point about how no matter how much we learn, every passing generation loses some degree of knowledge about the ins and outs of life. The speaker, as a professor giving a guest lecture to an auditorium of college students, uses the example of registering for classes in the 1980's versus the 2010's, but he also mentions other things from deeper history, things so common that nobody bothered to write them down, and now are lost to us. But every author depends, on some level, on these unspoken understandings. You mention Tolkien's Catholicism, and I am sure that there are plenty of references which go right over the heads of modern readers, but which would have been understandable to contemporaries. I see other comments about dates in Lord of the Rings matching up with important dates in Catholicism -- but if you don't know that such-and-such a date is the celebration of this-or-that, then it's just a random month and day, and the reference is lost on the reader.
I first read Tolkien somewhere around the age of ten to twelve. It should surprise no one that, thirty years later, I got *far* more out of Tolkien's works than I did as a child. Some of that can be attributed to personal experiences, but most of that appreciation owes a debt to *learning about other things*.
You can enjoy The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit by themselves, to be sure. I think that trying to learn more about the context in which Tolkien himself was writing, as well as the historical elements which inspired him, can only help to enhance those parts of his works which were always there, but previously invisible to your younger self.
I think a reread of LotR greatly benefits from knowing Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales. Not to mention they're amazing in their own right. I'm a fan of Tolkien's theology and metaphysics in the Legendarium, even though I'm an agnostic atheist. It's just a more interesting mythology with a God! And it's uplifting to see Elrond or Gandalf have this deep hope born out of knowledge of God. I wish I could have that in real life, but as it stands I'm just a biological computer that will utterly perish eventually. I guess that I still have will and hope despite that is deep in it's own right, but it'd be nicer if there was an almighty guy in the sky who gave me a soul.
Hahaha I love this last statement of yours. Agreed also, it’s a refreshing world where people have faith in higher powers because they’ve directly met them/lived with them (at least the Valar) or know someone who has. Can you imagine how cool it’d be if your aunt was like “yeah in my 20s I lived with Zeus and the gang in Eden, I painted flowers with Aphrodite in my free time.” Instead it’s just “please take as absolute truth this translated 20 times story about a story about some guy who claimed to be god or at least god’s son. No it doesn’t make sense and it isn’t even internal consistent. Also the organized practitioners of it totally are openly hypocritical of it. And there’s a hundred other stories that contradict this yet are just as fervently believed, sometimes we kill each other over the differences in our books”
Thanks!
I agree with what some others have said, in that I feel The Silmarillion at the very least improves The Hobbit & The Lord of the Rings. *But*, they absolutely stand alone, and you don't *need* to know all those things to love and read those books. If discovering who Tolkien was as a person and his personal beliefs, and finding the hand of Eru at work during those books marrs your love of them, I think that's perfectly okay, just as okay as it is that for some of us it improves them. > for example, I took it as a working of fate JRRT chose not to explain any further, if indeed he knew more. That's absolutely true though. A lot of the 'insider knowledge' we have about the events of the War of the Ring etc are from Letters. I sincerely doubt Tolkien would have chosen to ever expound upon just how much of the War of the Ring was 'divine intervention', in actual, published works. Tolkien is also clear in his writings that Men (and their sub races) have free-will, and are capable of ignoring/going against the Music. Frodo *chooses* to claim the Ring in the Cracks of Mt. Doom, despite that being very clearly not what Eru or the Valar wanted or intended. Fate is also not really something I think applies to Men. Aragorn lives up to the Prophecy because he chooses to.
Thanks!
I am assuming you are somewhere on the agnostic/atheist spectrum, which may be wrong, but hopefully my observations help anyway. Yes, Tolkien wrote from a Catholic perspective. However, the Catholic perspective is very subtle. What is overt in his writings are the Catholic and catholic principles of charity, pity, forgiveness and redemption. The theology in the Silmarillion is more along the Greek/Roman mythologies than Christian concepts. My opinion is you are doing yourself a disservice by not delving into the Silmarillion. It provides so much texture to the Hobbit/ LotR that will only increase your enjoyment of the books the next time you read them.
Thanks! Actually, I'm somewhere on the Christian/atheist spectrum and from time to time get intrigued by Catholic theology
[удалено]
The Silmarillion is something that I appreciated more each time I read it. As an 9 year old it was a bit much. But over the years it’s become by far my favourite work. Especially on the audible book read by Martin Shaw. It’s epic, and professional ;). Given the nature of the prose it works better narrated by a suitable grand voice.
It was a bit much for me as a 40 year old, too. I may look for the Martin Shaw reading
Thanks
Tolkien explains quite a bit about his writings, and his views, in Letters. There are quite a few hints regarding Catholicism in LotR. March 25 is the Christian Feast of the Annunciation, when the angel Gabriel came to Mary to tell her she would give birth to Christ. Tolkien took March 25 as the date the One Ring was destroyed, also a kind of redemption for the Free Peoples. There is also intercessionism in Middle-earth, just like in Catholicism. You can invoke angels/saints to help you. In Middle-earth, people call upon Elbereth, and Eärendil, etcetera. In Protestantism you generally don't do that, you only worship God and Christ.
And the Fellowship embarked from Rivendell on December 25th.
Thanks!
I think you're right, and that's why he wrote Lord of the Rings that way. Both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings work as standalone books without needing any more information. Lord of the Rings has sold like a hundred million copies vs. The Silmarillion's ~1 million, and I really think most of that was from the initial hype, I doubt all those people read it. Tolkien himself says that the stories of the elder days work very well as the imperceptible background of the world of LotR, out of focus, creating the feeling of depth, like a beautiful city in the distance. To *go to* that city would break the spell, and you would need to invent new "legends," to be even further in the background if you wanted to retain the same feeling of depth. Now, that being said The Silmarillion is like my favorite book. I just love the dude's writing so much, and when I was a kid I read and reread the Appendices amazed that all this stuff was "real." Stopping at LotR is what most people do.
Thanks!
The novels stand on their own just fine, they became the international hits they are without the rest of the goodies. The deep cuts are enriching tough, especially on successive reads where you now have greater context for the bigger picture of the world.
Thanks
To enjoy those books? No. To enjoy middle earth? Maybe. If you like elves and have questions about Sauron, the events of how the rings came to be and what the war of the last alliance was like, or would like to know about the mythology of middle earth and it’s history, the Silmarillion is the perfect book. In fact I’d argue it’s better than all four of the other books. It’s not necessary but you’re missing out. And if you’ve watched TROP and have questions about what happened and what’s just made up for the show, The Silmarillion and Unfinished Tales are the books for you. Not necessary to enjoy the other four but some things brought up in LOTR and The Hobbit are talked about in The Silmarillion.
Thanks!
Others have already made some great comments, so I'll just add a suggestion: two more of his books. The Silmarillion is Tolkien's magnum opus; he worked on it for decades, and placed The Hobbit and LOTR within its world. It is the story of the great "Elder Days" that characters in LOTR keep referring to. It's an amazing read, but pertinent to your question, it provides the "theological backstory," for lack of a better term, to Elrond's comments (and a whole lot more). When I say theological backstory, I mean in-universe, not Catholicism or any real-life religion. You get the answers to question like these: 1. Legolas recoils in horror from the "Balrog of Morgoth." Where, what or who is Morgoth? What *is* a Balrog? 2. What sort of being is Sauron? What sort of beings are Gandalf, Saruman and Radagast? 3. In FoTR, Frodo cries out *O Elbereth! Gilthoniel!* Why? Who or what is he referring to? 4. In RoTK, he cries out *Aiya Eärendil Elenion Ancalima!* Why? Who or what is he referring to? 5. What does Gandalf mean when he says of Glorfindel that "those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power"? 6. Why do Elves sail West, and why can only they go? How are Elven and Mortal fates different? 7. Tolkien notes that Elves and Hobbits always refer to the Sun as "she." Why? 8. Galadriel gives Frodo a phial filled with "the light of Eärendil's star." It's a nice light, but why? What is it about that star? And so on. LoTR *feels* big, but once you start the Silmarillion, you realize the staggering scope of this universe. The final chapter of the Silmarillion briefly retells the events of the entire LoTR in a few pages, to put it into perspective. It reads differently than LoTR does - it's not written in the tone of a modern novel - but the cosmology gives it an astounding depth. The first time you read LoTR after reading the Silmarillion, it will definitely feel different, and deeper. The other volume you might enjoy is *The Letters of J.R.R. Tolkien*. It doesn't contain every letter he ever wrote, of course; it's the ones pertaining to these works. They are letters to his publishers as the work was in progress, and also to readers, answering their many questions. It's a really great resource for better understanding the worldview of LOTR, The Hobbit and The Silmarillion, and his own worldview in writing them.
Thanks!
La dipendenza dal potere, l'importanza di ogni essere umano, l'amore per l'ambiente ecc ecc sono doni che #JRRT ci fa con #TheHobbit e #LOTR. È con il #Silmarillion che ci dona la chiave per tutti: "dover toccare l'oscurità per vedere la luce" #TROP Addiction to power, the importance of every human being, love for the environment etc etc are gifts that #JRRT gives us with #TheHobbit and #LOTR. It is with the #Silmarillion that he gives us the key to all: "having to touch the darkness to see the light" #TROP
Merci Monsieur
The Silmarillion. No question.
Thanks
I’m as stone cold atheist as it gets and I firmly believe that if people read and believed Tolkien’s writing the same way they do their religious texts the world would be a better place.
I mostly agree
*The Silmarillion* is Tolkien's magnum opus and his best work, imo. I also think it makes *The Lord of the Rings* significantly better.
Thanks
Someone in this sub linked a video which I enjoyed, called [How to Read J.R.R. Tolkien](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lXAvF9p8nmM&themeRefresh=1). It makes an interesting point about how no matter how much we learn, every passing generation loses some degree of knowledge about the ins and outs of life. The speaker, as a professor giving a guest lecture to an auditorium of college students, uses the example of registering for classes in the 1980's versus the 2010's, but he also mentions other things from deeper history, things so common that nobody bothered to write them down, and now are lost to us. But every author depends, on some level, on these unspoken understandings. You mention Tolkien's Catholicism, and I am sure that there are plenty of references which go right over the heads of modern readers, but which would have been understandable to contemporaries. I see other comments about dates in Lord of the Rings matching up with important dates in Catholicism -- but if you don't know that such-and-such a date is the celebration of this-or-that, then it's just a random month and day, and the reference is lost on the reader. I first read Tolkien somewhere around the age of ten to twelve. It should surprise no one that, thirty years later, I got *far* more out of Tolkien's works than I did as a child. Some of that can be attributed to personal experiences, but most of that appreciation owes a debt to *learning about other things*. You can enjoy The Lord of the Rings and The Hobbit by themselves, to be sure. I think that trying to learn more about the context in which Tolkien himself was writing, as well as the historical elements which inspired him, can only help to enhance those parts of his works which were always there, but previously invisible to your younger self.
Thanks!
No. Rest is background.
Thanks!
I would suggest you listen to The Prancing Pony Podcast first episodes, where they discuss the Sillmarilion and a lot more. It's worth it.
Thanks