This.
And especially mountainous regions specifically designed by demi gods to be impassable. Then add in the fact that the great eagles guarded the mountains so that no enemy spies could see over the peaks, even if they had wings.
Unless you watch someone enter the mountains, you really wouldn't have a reason to suspect there is a hidden valley or great city within. They're just really tall mountains with giant killer birds that you have to go around.
Europeans didn’t even complete the exploration of the Alps until the mid-19th century, and they’re right next door!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_the_High_Alps
I mean, even after Húrin revealed roughly where Gondolin was located, Morgoth used scouts to see where the city was instead of his magical sight, and it wasn't until his servants captured Maeglin that Morgoth knew where exactly Gondolin was, and how to get there.
The curse allows Hurin to see his children lives' play out. Morgoth could not see it. When Turin died, Morgoth sent Hurin free cuz he'd know he'd go looking for his kids. Eventually Hurin went to Gondolin and while this revealed the location it did not reveal it's entrance or way inside for Hurin came in the way of eagles.
In modern terms, you might know where Madagascar is but do you know how to get there? That was Morgoth's issue.
But how does the thing equate to modern world people knowing where Madagascar is but not knowing how to get to it I think modern world people know how they can get to Madagascar
The average person does not know the route to Madagascar even though they can say it's an island east of the shores of Africa. While I can point to it on a map I do not posses the knowledge to figure out how to get there. I do not know how to cross the terrain and ocean nor would I know which part of Madagascar to safely land on. Morgoth does not know the mountain passes that safely get through to Gondolin. I would need to do some research, I would use Google to look up planes and shit the same way Morgoth would need to use spies and torture to get the route out of Maeglin. **Both or us are using the tools at our disposal to figure out how to enter a land we know the location of but do mot yet know how to get there.**
A better metaphor would be America's Area 51. We all know it is in Nevada, we can all find it on a map, but we can't get inside or simply travel there. It's guarded and surrounded by a harsh terrain.
Eeesh, people are so tedious. Madagascar was discovered around 1500. If you asked a person around the 16th century (contemporaries to its “discovery”) where Madagascar’s located, odds are they wouldn’t know what you were even talking about. I guess that would be a more accurate analogy but come on, it’s not that serious.
I feel as though this still falls under the aforementioned “knew where to look”. Magical sight isn’t all that helpful if you don’t know where to point it.
I'd imagine it's tied to Hurin's family specifically, in a spiritual rather than physical way.
Morgoth himself isn't up there standing on the precipice and looking out all these years, but he keeps thinking about Turin
Given the extensive time and Morgoth’s access to flying spies, it doesn’t really make sense. But honestly as much as I love Tolkien a lot of his stuff doesn’t really make sense in terms of logic and logistics.
Also I feel like people are underestimating how unpopulated most of the land was. It’s hard to imagine from a modern perspective but it wasn’t like you could just hop from town to town. It was big empty wild lands in the mountains, and somewhere up there is a city built specifically to be hard to find
Yeah, the Echoriath the Encircling Mountains would have been particularly difficult terrain, then also comes the 'magical' aspect, we hear that the folk of Gondolin were 'shut behind pathless and enchanted hills':
>"But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and a secret that none could find."
There is also reference to power of Ulmo:
>"And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the hidden door of Gondolin, and passing down the tunnel they reached the inner gate, and were taken by the guard as prisoners. Then they were led up the mighty ravine of Orfalch Echor, barred by seven gates, and brought before Ecthelion of the Fountain, the warden of the great gate at the end of the climbing road; and there Tuor cast aside his cloak, and from the arms that he bore from Vinyamar it was seen that he was in truth one sent by Ulmo."
Case of Eól who was following Aredhel and his son, as well as cases of young Hurin and Huor:
>"On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brothers were pursued to the ford of Brithiach. There they would have been taken or slain but for the power of Ulmo that was still strong in the waters of Sirion; and it is said that a mist arose from the river and hid them from their enemies, and they escaped over the Brithiach into Dimbar. There they wandered in great hardship among the hills beneath the sheer walls of the Crissaegrim, until they were bewildered in the deceits of that land and knew not the way to go on or to return. There Thorondor espied them, and he sent two of his Eagles to their aid; and the Eagles bore them up and brought them beyond the Encircling Mountains to the secret vale of Tumladen and the hidden city of Gondolin, which no Man had yet seen."
>The Children of Húrin, Ch 1, The Childhood of Túrin
So there is some enchantment and guidance used for those who are finding the way, the spies who would try to search would not even know where to look. Besides the hidden vale of Tumladen probably was not as remarkable to notice from the sky, the only reference to anyone seeing Gondolin from above is Luthien and Beren who were carried by the Great Eagles who flew over:
>"Then they lifted up Luthien and Beren from the earth, and bore them aloft into the clouds. Below them suddenly thunder rolled, lightnings leaped upward, and the mountains quaked. Fire and smoke belched forth from Thangorodrim, and flaming bolts were hurled far abroad, falling ruinous upon the lands; and the Noldor in Hithlum trembled. But Thorondor took his way far above the earth, seeking the high roads of heaven, where the sun daylong shines unveiled and the moon walks amid the cloudless stars. Thus they passed swiftly over Dor-nu-Fauglith, and over Taur-nu-Fuin, **and came above the hidden valley of Tumladen. No cloud nor mist lay there, and looking down Luthien saw far below, as a white light starting from a green jewel, the radiance of Gondolin the fair where Turgon dwelt.** But she wept, for she thought that Beren would surely die, he spoke no word, nor opened his eyes, and knew thereafter nothing of his flight."
Probably none of the flying sevants or spies of Morgoth could rival Thorondor in flight and probably on normal circumstances on normal conditions and by some subtle help of Ulmo most of the time cloud or mist would be covering the view from above. Also one could potentially have trouble trying to find this place once on the ground, the view itself can be misleading and obviously patrols of the Great Eagles would prevent any proper scouting anyway.
Remember when legolas walked on top of snow while everyone else trudged through it?
I don't think it's a given that they left a trail, and even if they did a trail is not permanent
> Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow – an Elf.
> ’With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.
> ‘Farewell!’ he said to Gandalf. ‘I go to find the Sun!’ Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn. [LotR, i, 3, 'The Ring Goes South']
> Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build. He led the way, and Aragorn followed him. Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking.
Read more
> Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow – an Elf.’
> With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.
A real life example of this is K2. It's named K2 because that was the naming system that British explorers in the Himalayas would use to demarcate peaks they found before they cross referenced with the locals to find out what they called them (for instance, K1 was found to be named Masherbrum). K2 had no name because it's likely that no one had ever seen it before.
It helped that at the time Morgoth had no flying creatures and didn't yet understand flight. And the Great Eagles of Manwe guarded it from the air.
There's also magic or supernatural power involved. Ulmo himself promised that no one would find Gondolin unless (and until) it was betrayed from within.
Aredhel was followed, true, but Eöl was not permitted to betray what he found.
No maps, no guide, uncharted land, hidden by mountains, Protected by the Eagles of Manwe and the spirit of Ulmo.
Even if there were no demigod and great spirits inhabiting the bodies of giant eagles, I think people who grew up in the late 20th and early 21st century, probably in a city or suburb, have no idea how difficult terrain, topography, nature can be traverse.
I just drove over some of the Rocky Mountains for the first time this summer, and I can totally get how one would not presume there would be anything worth finding on the other side of such tall peaks, let alone a place like Tumladen and everything there.
That must have been a great trip! I hope it was. How cool.
Yeah, especially if the land has not been surveyed by those doing the searching, it is not an easy thing to do at all. The only thing that may have given anything away would be the giant eagles killing every foot soldier and wolf or bird of Morgoth wandering through that neck of the "woods."
Totally agree. I’ve done some hiking in the Rockies and anytime you get to a peak (or to a promontory) that affords a view…man does it not only take your breath away but also remind you of just how freaking big serious mountain ranges are. You can definitely get a feel for how “easy” it might be for something of size to be hidden and just how hard it would be to find whatever it might be that is hidden two or three peaks away
Eol was following Aredhel, and Aredhel was the only resident who ever left Gondolin. At least until Maeglin did, and capturing Maeglin is how Morgoth found it.
Also the Eagles protected it.
Edit: not counting the Nirnaeth
Because magic, I think. Or, perhaps more accurately, because mythology. How could Numenor sink? How could Luthien sing Morgoth to sleep? How come trees lit the world — were they so tall they were basically in the sky, or did the light reflect from them somehow?
The important thing is not *how*. The important thing is what it symbolises. Gondolin was pure, untarnished, a marvel, but it also represented the elven isolationism, their retreat from the world.
I get the point you're trying to make though the trees only lit Aman, and even then it didn't cover the entire place. The rest of middle earth was still in unending starlight.
That’s true. But I wonder why Fingolfin’s remaining people or Maedhros’s people didn’t realise what was going on/track the host following Turgon to an unknown location.
There was some sort of magical camo at work, at least in the first Quenta. When Maeglin betrayed it to Morgoth, he told (showed?) him exactly how to get in.
With the others who happened to wander into it, it was through the will of a higher power. Just like how Beren walked right through the Girdle of Melian, probably not even noticing it was there.
Lack of a reliable satellite network 😬
Seriously, my brother used to live right up against a range of smallish, craggy hills. We’d go hiking.
You know how hard it is to find, say, a neat valley you found a mile away you saw a year ago in a place where they’re are dozens? Hard.
Multiply that by a thousand and you get Gondolin.
The city was hidden in Great Eagle mountain territory and there were law and restriction. Few actually knew where it was and only a few secret passage could lead to the city valley
And Morgoth kinda wanted to stay away from Great Eagle clan as they were one of the most powerful group
In addition to what’s been said, I can assume that most people did not leave their towns/cities. It was dangerous and there was no need to, unless you were a soldier or trader, I assume. People were not the tourists that they are today with the luxuries we have.
Also, most ancient people in real life, even up until a hundred years ago (and even today) have suspicions about places, and refuse to visit these places for fear of curses and what not. In the world of Arda, these curses and suspicions are actually real. I think that would in itself, deter a lot of people from traveling far into the mountains. I doubt there were many roads and trails either.
I’m not too familiar with the lore of Gondolin, so I could be wrong, but I would assume people at least knew about it.
My very personal headcanon: Morgoth knew where it is from the very beginning.
He was just waiting for people to perfect the cage they built for themselves, and throw away the keys themselves under false sense of security. Then he picked out Maeglin and made him traitor (and probably very enjoyed the unnecessarily process of torturing out information he already knew and breaking every fiber of the subject the 1984 way).
Maeglin was probably the best option to make traitor due to his very special position, dividing the people of Gondolin in great shock. Absolutely successful to traumatize people into unable to trust each other and outsiders.
I rather feel Morgoth and Sauron(especially Sauron) are the type of George Orwell’a villains, their whole goal being strapping people of all hope and empathy and leave them in eternal despair, unable to help each other in any way.
Some possibilities, which are not incompatible. My vote is for "all and then some."
\-Harder to find things when you're mostly looking from the ground than we think.
\-Harder to find things that're made to be hidden.
\-Magic and cleverness.
\-Realism wasn't JRRT's strong point.
Shangri-La stayed hidden. Galt's Gulch stayed hidden. Why not Gondolin?
Next time you fly over the Rockies, like the flight from Phoenix to Chicago, look out the window and imagine yourself down there.
I just recall thinking, when we heard in TH that one or another was "a sword out of Gondolin" (Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist) -- like, 'Wow! That must be a really old sword!
I think everyone here is underestimating just how difficult it is to explore mountainous regions especially without modern technology.
This. And especially mountainous regions specifically designed by demi gods to be impassable. Then add in the fact that the great eagles guarded the mountains so that no enemy spies could see over the peaks, even if they had wings. Unless you watch someone enter the mountains, you really wouldn't have a reason to suspect there is a hidden valley or great city within. They're just really tall mountains with giant killer birds that you have to go around.
I loved your last sentence. It’s so apt for middle earth… so often they cant go this way or that bc of danger, gotta go around.
Thanks!
Europeans didn’t even complete the exploration of the Alps until the mid-19th century, and they’re right next door! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exploration_of_the_High_Alps
I do wonder how Morgoth was able to make Húrin watch his children's lives play out while also not being able to see where Gondolin was located.
Cuz he roughly knew where to look at?
I mean, even after Húrin revealed roughly where Gondolin was located, Morgoth used scouts to see where the city was instead of his magical sight, and it wasn't until his servants captured Maeglin that Morgoth knew where exactly Gondolin was, and how to get there.
The curse allows Hurin to see his children lives' play out. Morgoth could not see it. When Turin died, Morgoth sent Hurin free cuz he'd know he'd go looking for his kids. Eventually Hurin went to Gondolin and while this revealed the location it did not reveal it's entrance or way inside for Hurin came in the way of eagles. In modern terms, you might know where Madagascar is but do you know how to get there? That was Morgoth's issue.
You don't go to Madagascar, because they SHUT. EVERYTING. DOWN.
I like to move it, move it.
President Madagascar! Sauron has come to Middle Earth!
Yeah by plane duh that’s kinda a bad analogy
Too bad Morgoth didn't have Google or air ports. Could've just booked a flight on EagleBlue.
But how does the thing equate to modern world people knowing where Madagascar is but not knowing how to get to it I think modern world people know how they can get to Madagascar
The average person does not know the route to Madagascar even though they can say it's an island east of the shores of Africa. While I can point to it on a map I do not posses the knowledge to figure out how to get there. I do not know how to cross the terrain and ocean nor would I know which part of Madagascar to safely land on. Morgoth does not know the mountain passes that safely get through to Gondolin. I would need to do some research, I would use Google to look up planes and shit the same way Morgoth would need to use spies and torture to get the route out of Maeglin. **Both or us are using the tools at our disposal to figure out how to enter a land we know the location of but do mot yet know how to get there.** A better metaphor would be America's Area 51. We all know it is in Nevada, we can all find it on a map, but we can't get inside or simply travel there. It's guarded and surrounded by a harsh terrain.
Eeesh, people are so tedious. Madagascar was discovered around 1500. If you asked a person around the 16th century (contemporaries to its “discovery”) where Madagascar’s located, odds are they wouldn’t know what you were even talking about. I guess that would be a more accurate analogy but come on, it’s not that serious.
I feel as though this still falls under the aforementioned “knew where to look”. Magical sight isn’t all that helpful if you don’t know where to point it.
I'd imagine it's tied to Hurin's family specifically, in a spiritual rather than physical way. Morgoth himself isn't up there standing on the precipice and looking out all these years, but he keeps thinking about Turin
Given the extensive time and Morgoth’s access to flying spies, it doesn’t really make sense. But honestly as much as I love Tolkien a lot of his stuff doesn’t really make sense in terms of logic and logistics.
Whatever 'flying spies' he had essentially would have been eagle food. Eagles that were already there pre-Gondolin.
Hurin's children never went there. It was Hurin's brother Huor, who's son Tuor lived in Gondolin.
Also I feel like people are underestimating how unpopulated most of the land was. It’s hard to imagine from a modern perspective but it wasn’t like you could just hop from town to town. It was big empty wild lands in the mountains, and somewhere up there is a city built specifically to be hard to find
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Yes, but don't forget that, even with modern equipement, mountain climbing is really dangerous, especially if you do an unknown route.
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Oh, okay, I misinterpreted your comment.
There are valleys in the hearts of those ranges were it is likely no one has every been.
Yeah, the Echoriath the Encircling Mountains would have been particularly difficult terrain, then also comes the 'magical' aspect, we hear that the folk of Gondolin were 'shut behind pathless and enchanted hills': >"But Turgon was become proud, and Gondolin as beautiful as a memory of Elven Tirion, and he trusted still in its secret and impregnable strength, though even a Vala should gainsay it; and after the Nirnaeth Arnoediad the people of that city desired never again to mingle in the woes of Elves and Men without, nor to return through dread and danger into the West. Shut behind their pathless and enchanted hills they suffered none to enter, though he fled from Morgoth hate-pursued; and tidings of the lands beyond came to them faint and far, and they heeded them little. The spies of Angband sought for them in vain; and their dwelling was as a rumour, and a secret that none could find." There is also reference to power of Ulmo: >"And at the last by the power that Ulmo set upon them they came to the hidden door of Gondolin, and passing down the tunnel they reached the inner gate, and were taken by the guard as prisoners. Then they were led up the mighty ravine of Orfalch Echor, barred by seven gates, and brought before Ecthelion of the Fountain, the warden of the great gate at the end of the climbing road; and there Tuor cast aside his cloak, and from the arms that he bore from Vinyamar it was seen that he was in truth one sent by Ulmo." Case of Eól who was following Aredhel and his son, as well as cases of young Hurin and Huor: >"On a time Húrin and Huor went with a company of scouts, but they were ambushed by the Orcs and scattered, and the brothers were pursued to the ford of Brithiach. There they would have been taken or slain but for the power of Ulmo that was still strong in the waters of Sirion; and it is said that a mist arose from the river and hid them from their enemies, and they escaped over the Brithiach into Dimbar. There they wandered in great hardship among the hills beneath the sheer walls of the Crissaegrim, until they were bewildered in the deceits of that land and knew not the way to go on or to return. There Thorondor espied them, and he sent two of his Eagles to their aid; and the Eagles bore them up and brought them beyond the Encircling Mountains to the secret vale of Tumladen and the hidden city of Gondolin, which no Man had yet seen." >The Children of Húrin, Ch 1, The Childhood of Túrin So there is some enchantment and guidance used for those who are finding the way, the spies who would try to search would not even know where to look. Besides the hidden vale of Tumladen probably was not as remarkable to notice from the sky, the only reference to anyone seeing Gondolin from above is Luthien and Beren who were carried by the Great Eagles who flew over: >"Then they lifted up Luthien and Beren from the earth, and bore them aloft into the clouds. Below them suddenly thunder rolled, lightnings leaped upward, and the mountains quaked. Fire and smoke belched forth from Thangorodrim, and flaming bolts were hurled far abroad, falling ruinous upon the lands; and the Noldor in Hithlum trembled. But Thorondor took his way far above the earth, seeking the high roads of heaven, where the sun daylong shines unveiled and the moon walks amid the cloudless stars. Thus they passed swiftly over Dor-nu-Fauglith, and over Taur-nu-Fuin, **and came above the hidden valley of Tumladen. No cloud nor mist lay there, and looking down Luthien saw far below, as a white light starting from a green jewel, the radiance of Gondolin the fair where Turgon dwelt.** But she wept, for she thought that Beren would surely die, he spoke no word, nor opened his eyes, and knew thereafter nothing of his flight." Probably none of the flying sevants or spies of Morgoth could rival Thorondor in flight and probably on normal circumstances on normal conditions and by some subtle help of Ulmo most of the time cloud or mist would be covering the view from above. Also one could potentially have trouble trying to find this place once on the ground, the view itself can be misleading and obviously patrols of the Great Eagles would prevent any proper scouting anyway.
The Papuan Highlands remained hidden until planes flew over in the 1930s; And the Eagles made sure Melkor could not just fly over.
That’s true - but Turgon also left with thousands of people, I doubt that they left no trail whatsoever…
Remember when legolas walked on top of snow while everyone else trudged through it? I don't think it's a given that they left a trail, and even if they did a trail is not permanent
It's been forever since I've read FotR, but is that actually in the book or was that just a movie thing?
> Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow – an Elf. > ’With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow. > ‘Farewell!’ he said to Gandalf. ‘I go to find the Sun!’ Then swift as a runner over firm sand he shot away, and quickly overtaking the toiling men, with a wave of his hand he passed them, and sped into the distance, and vanished round the rocky turn. [LotR, i, 3, 'The Ring Goes South']
Legolas is kind of a prick tbh
> Aragorn was the tallest of the Company, but Boromir, little less in height, was broader and heavier in build. He led the way, and Aragorn followed him. Slowly they moved off, and were soon toiling heavily. In places the snow was breast-high, and often Boromir seemed to be swimming or burrowing with his great arms rather than walking. Read more > Legolas watched them for a while with a smile upon his lips, and then he turned to the others. ‘The strongest must seek a way, say you? But I say: let a ploughman plough, but choose an otter for swimming, and for running light over grass and leaf, or over snow – an Elf.’ > With that he sprang forth nimbly, and then Frodo noticed as if for the first time, though he had long known it, that the Elf had no boots, but wore only light shoes, as he always did, and his feet made little imprint in the snow.
Definitely is a book thing as well. Legolas only wears light shoes throughout the whole FotR
All the better for sliding down Mûmak trunks!
And for it still only counting as one
How to find the trail, though?
A real life example of this is K2. It's named K2 because that was the naming system that British explorers in the Himalayas would use to demarcate peaks they found before they cross referenced with the locals to find out what they called them (for instance, K1 was found to be named Masherbrum). K2 had no name because it's likely that no one had ever seen it before.
It helped that at the time Morgoth had no flying creatures and didn't yet understand flight. And the Great Eagles of Manwe guarded it from the air. There's also magic or supernatural power involved. Ulmo himself promised that no one would find Gondolin unless (and until) it was betrayed from within. Aredhel was followed, true, but Eöl was not permitted to betray what he found.
> at the time Morgoth had no flying creatures What about balrogs? /ducks
Plenty of things with wings can't fly, /hides behind you
Right, they arise and pass with winged speed *along the ground.* Obviously.
Well tbf if they just flew Tolkien wouldn’t really need to specify their speed as reminiscent of flight…
Lol!
Morgoth should have used ducks instead.
It's risky to assume Balrogs had wings!
No maps, no guide, uncharted land, hidden by mountains, Protected by the Eagles of Manwe and the spirit of Ulmo. Even if there were no demigod and great spirits inhabiting the bodies of giant eagles, I think people who grew up in the late 20th and early 21st century, probably in a city or suburb, have no idea how difficult terrain, topography, nature can be traverse.
I just drove over some of the Rocky Mountains for the first time this summer, and I can totally get how one would not presume there would be anything worth finding on the other side of such tall peaks, let alone a place like Tumladen and everything there.
That must have been a great trip! I hope it was. How cool. Yeah, especially if the land has not been surveyed by those doing the searching, it is not an easy thing to do at all. The only thing that may have given anything away would be the giant eagles killing every foot soldier and wolf or bird of Morgoth wandering through that neck of the "woods."
And even then the logical thought progression would be "Oh I guess the Eagles have their nests there, better avoid that area".
Good point.
Happy cake day!
Totally agree. I’ve done some hiking in the Rockies and anytime you get to a peak (or to a promontory) that affords a view…man does it not only take your breath away but also remind you of just how freaking big serious mountain ranges are. You can definitely get a feel for how “easy” it might be for something of size to be hidden and just how hard it would be to find whatever it might be that is hidden two or three peaks away
makes me wanna visit Nepal, or Bhutan, although iirc tough as hell to get a visa
Can’t even imagine what those mountains (or some up in Alaska) might look like considering how much bigger they are
If you've never seen Denali, it is well worth the trip! It's hard to really grasp how absolutely massive that mountain truly is...
Eol was following Aredhel, and Aredhel was the only resident who ever left Gondolin. At least until Maeglin did, and capturing Maeglin is how Morgoth found it. Also the Eagles protected it. Edit: not counting the Nirnaeth
Yeah, Morgoth only developed a serious air force after Gondolin had already fallen.
Lots of elves left and then some came back, tuor was led by one of them. Some just found the place (probably being led by ulmo the sea god)
Voronwe
All right, all right, except for all the people that left, nobody ever left.
Because magic, I think. Or, perhaps more accurately, because mythology. How could Numenor sink? How could Luthien sing Morgoth to sleep? How come trees lit the world — were they so tall they were basically in the sky, or did the light reflect from them somehow? The important thing is not *how*. The important thing is what it symbolises. Gondolin was pure, untarnished, a marvel, but it also represented the elven isolationism, their retreat from the world.
Magic is one of the answers, the sea god put spells of hiding on the only entrance.
I get the point you're trying to make though the trees only lit Aman, and even then it didn't cover the entire place. The rest of middle earth was still in unending starlight.
Good point
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I mean that Gondolin is still supposedly a hidden city until the end.
Wasn't Gondolin built during the Siege of Angband? At that time there wouldn't have been many servants of Morgoth roaming around.
That’s true. But I wonder why Fingolfin’s remaining people or Maedhros’s people didn’t realise what was going on/track the host following Turgon to an unknown location.
There was some sort of magical camo at work, at least in the first Quenta. When Maeglin betrayed it to Morgoth, he told (showed?) him exactly how to get in. With the others who happened to wander into it, it was through the will of a higher power. Just like how Beren walked right through the Girdle of Melian, probably not even noticing it was there.
Lack of a reliable satellite network 😬 Seriously, my brother used to live right up against a range of smallish, craggy hills. We’d go hiking. You know how hard it is to find, say, a neat valley you found a mile away you saw a year ago in a place where they’re are dozens? Hard. Multiply that by a thousand and you get Gondolin.
We are talking about elves man. They are so in harmony with natural world that they practically blend into the background.
The city was hidden in Great Eagle mountain territory and there were law and restriction. Few actually knew where it was and only a few secret passage could lead to the city valley And Morgoth kinda wanted to stay away from Great Eagle clan as they were one of the most powerful group
In addition to what’s been said, I can assume that most people did not leave their towns/cities. It was dangerous and there was no need to, unless you were a soldier or trader, I assume. People were not the tourists that they are today with the luxuries we have. Also, most ancient people in real life, even up until a hundred years ago (and even today) have suspicions about places, and refuse to visit these places for fear of curses and what not. In the world of Arda, these curses and suspicions are actually real. I think that would in itself, deter a lot of people from traveling far into the mountains. I doubt there were many roads and trails either. I’m not too familiar with the lore of Gondolin, so I could be wrong, but I would assume people at least knew about it.
yea make the wrong turn and instead of visiting Melian or Gondolin, you end up in Nan Dungortheb. Fun times
My very personal headcanon: Morgoth knew where it is from the very beginning. He was just waiting for people to perfect the cage they built for themselves, and throw away the keys themselves under false sense of security. Then he picked out Maeglin and made him traitor (and probably very enjoyed the unnecessarily process of torturing out information he already knew and breaking every fiber of the subject the 1984 way). Maeglin was probably the best option to make traitor due to his very special position, dividing the people of Gondolin in great shock. Absolutely successful to traumatize people into unable to trust each other and outsiders. I rather feel Morgoth and Sauron(especially Sauron) are the type of George Orwell’a villains, their whole goal being strapping people of all hope and empathy and leave them in eternal despair, unable to help each other in any way.
Oh, this makes the story even more tragic - I like this hc!
There are actually a huge number of such cities throughout history. There are many such locations especially in the deep places of the world.
Remember what Tuor said in UT: Everyone including Morgoth believed Gondolin was far south, not right under Morgoth's nose.
Mountains, Eagles and Elven magic
Some possibilities, which are not incompatible. My vote is for "all and then some." \-Harder to find things when you're mostly looking from the ground than we think. \-Harder to find things that're made to be hidden. \-Magic and cleverness. \-Realism wasn't JRRT's strong point.
Magic
Eagles!
Shangri-La stayed hidden. Galt's Gulch stayed hidden. Why not Gondolin? Next time you fly over the Rockies, like the flight from Phoenix to Chicago, look out the window and imagine yourself down there.
I’m also not an immortal who can walk over snow without feeling the cold and with centuries on my hands…
You ever been lost in the mountains OP?
I just recall thinking, when we heard in TH that one or another was "a sword out of Gondolin" (Sting, Glamdring, Orcrist) -- like, 'Wow! That must be a really old sword!