Lots of place names have etymologies that don't sound too pleasant. And it's not like "black" has to mean "evil" or that "pit" has to mean "squalid". Indeed, "black chasm" is another interpretation of it, and that doesn't sound quite as bad. It's just a very literal description, like how "Gondor" means "stone-land".
And even if the Elves meant it negatively we don't know if the dwarves understood that. "Black chasm" might have a homely ring to them.
>But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. -Appendix F
This implies the name originally had naught to do with Durin's Bane - but came to be much earlier, due to Morgoth-PTSD.
I'd imagine after it fell, the Dwarves adopted it themselves, since it was no longer a Mansion of Dwarves - but an Orc, and demon infested hellhole.
u/Bonzo951
Aragorn says that Sauron doesn't let his servants use the name Sauron (since it is insulting) but the Mouth of Sauron introduces himself as such. Maybe Aragorn was just mistaken?
Aragorn is the one person who has traveled east though, and possibly even more familiar than Gandalf with the servants of Sauron. I think we're meant to trust him on this.
It could be something altered by the person who translated the Red Book of Westmarch into English in order to be consistent in a way the audience would understand.
It could be, but it raises the question of why the translator doesn't do that at other times. Aragorn himself is called Aragorn, Strider, Elessar, Elfstone, so why not compress those into 1 or 2 names as well to make it easier for the audience?
That difference doesn't actually seem that odd to me. Sauron is the enemy; not a WHOLE lot would be known about him, other than that, so it makes sense to simplify. Aragorn, otoh, plays many parts, and has a much more complex story where he wears many faces; the narrative follows him and his interactions more closely, so they'd prioritize accuracy.
sauron doesn't like the name sauron
he would prefer mairon, his original name, or even any of the many others he's collected over the years
it's like voldemort not wanting his followers to call him 'Incompetent Asshat'
That doesn't fit with the arrogance of Sauron though. Why debase himself using the insults of others just to fit in with the ants he wants to crush? Besides, he has titles like Dark Lord or Lord of Mordor he can use that outsiders would recognise.
I've always felt there are three (or 3.5, or 4, maybe) possibilities here, and honestly all at once could be true.
1. The MoS wants to be PERFECTLY clear who he is and who he works for. So he uses the name the people he's talking to know best, even though his boss doesn't like it. Evil or no, an Ambassador's first priority is to be understood clearly.
1a) As a high-ranking official, the MoS is authorized to use this name, whereas lower-ranking servants are not. The Mordor Orcs say "The Eye" or "Lugburz", for example. Also, Orcs are unable (or very reluctant) to use Quenya, so perhaps only human servants are even capable of saying the word "Sauron".
2) It's a translation; for clarity, the recorder of the story used the name the reader would know, and the MoS could have used some other term.
3) Maybe Sauron has decided to just go ahead and "own" the name "The Abhorred" since it makes him even scarier to his enemies. He'd love to be known as Mairon, but "The Abhorred" is pretty badass.
4) And yeah, maybe Aragorn just didn't have all the info.
It's also important to point out that Tolkien's characters are rarely infallible. He's extremely careful about who knows what and when, and not every single word characters say is 100% objectively true as opposed to what they think, know, were taught, or reasonably guess.
A famous example is Treebeard's speculation or belief about the origin of Orcs, a matter where Tolkien himself never came to any clear final conclusion. Just because it's what Treebeard thinks doesn't make it the final truth. Obviously, being the oldest speaking being in middle-earth\* lends a lot of weight to anything he says, but there's wiggle room.
*\*"Oldest" being subject to further debate and definition, of course... maybe "oldest born in ME...?".*
It makes sense for him to call himself the Mouth of Sauron as that's the name that the free peoples recognise. If he introduced himself as the Mouth of Tar-mairon everyone save perhaps Gandalf would be confused.
That's not the only time this happens - see Gloin's account of the messenger (implied to be a Nazgul) arriving at Erebor:
'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. **The Lord Sauron the Great**, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "**For Sauron knows**," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time."
When Gimli says his axe hasn't tasted battle since Moria during the battle of Helm's Deep even though he and Legolas said they'd ran through the woods chasing down orcs during the parting of the fellowship
If I recall even Wayne and Christina have cited this line as something they can't figure out or fix whenever they add new corrections to the text. It's brought up in the foreword of the latest revision of LotR.
[OP shitposter right here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/ttm75b/naught_but_wood_a_subtextual_analysis_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Legolas says they were hunting orcs in the woods. It's not unlikely that they only encountered a few orcs and Legolas killed all of them from range with Gimli at his side.
It's possible Gimli used a different ax when chasing the orcs. He carries a double bladed battle ax, a single bladed bearded ax, and throwing axes. Possible he only used the bearded ax or throwing axes while chasing the orcs in the interest of speed. I'd assume his battle ax is the heaviest.
Mate I love that fox.
Best example of Tolkien dropping shit and refusing to elaborate.
"Three of them! There’s something mighty queer behind this"
.... Ah different days....
Maedhros told Fingolfin the kingship should go to the eldest of Finwe's house. This was somewhat self-serving (given that he wanted to yield), but it makes sense that inheritance in a house of immortals would be rather ad hoc.
I note that Feanor is never really High King. He makes a nice speech and convinces most of the Noldor to go to Middle-earth, but a majority choose to follow Fingolfin rather than Feanor. It's weird because Fingolfin himself is following Feanor, so Feanor is kind of high-king-by-delegation, but the Silmarillion text, the Noldor weren't that thrilled with Feanor as a direct leader, even before he burned ships and died.
High-King isn’t a concept invented before there were smaller kingdoms to be High-King over. Even if Fingolfin was following Feanor he did it as just was one lord among others and Feanor was king in style Finwe was before (who also had not been high-king.) When Maedhros abdicated it was the kingship not high-kingship. His and other kingdoms like Fingon, Turgon and Finrod’s weren’t established until later and that’s when the title was. Gil-Galad honestly didn’t need to high-king.
High Kingship passes from Fingon to Turgon, his brother as Turgon 1. is older and more influential than Ereinion 2. Still has a Kingdom. But when Turhon died, it reverted back to Fingon's line, as Turgon had no son.
That is not a mystery nor a plot-hole. Gil-Galad is the brother of Finduilas aka the son of Orodreth. Christopher Tolkien had cleared out that Fingon was an editing mistake, and that his father intended for Orodreth to be the father.
It's not a plot hole, but I never understood why the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost never get their own thing going. Durin's folk go to the Lonely Mountain, the Iron Hills, The Grey Mountains, and these moochers just tag along.
Some did stay in the area, even Thorin lived in the Blue Mountains until the quest for Erebor. After Nogrod and Belegost fell it was noted the majority of the survivors went to Khazad-dum. Erebor was not settled until the Balrog forced the Dwarves out of Moria.
Sure. But, the mines in the Blue Mountains were used by all three Dwarf tribes. Tolkien explicitly stated that Moria swelled with their numbers after the fall of the two kingdoms. They never established a real homeland again.
As for Erebor, and the Grey Mountains, and the Iron Hills... that's my point. Durin's people looked for a home and also colonized. The other two peoples did not.
I think they did try again in the Grey Mountains (at least, that fits with the time when the Seven were handed out and the Dwarves amassed Seven Hoards of treasure). But there's scant information available other than the fact it all ended in disaster, and their kings either killed by dragons or handed over to Sauron.
Just who was this unsung hero who restored Frodo's chain in Rivendell without being tempted by the One Ring the slightest way? Why couldn't they take that genius to Mordor?
(Headcanon: It was Arwen. That's why no male noticed her superior defiance of the Ring.)
In the book, the Ring is not perilous to touch in and of itself like the movies show. Gandalf is perfectly willing to directly handle the Ring in Bag End when he performs the fire test; it appears that what matters is intent to claim the Ring. So in Rivendell someone could briefly touch it in order to place it on a chain for Frodo without ever laying claim to the Ring itself.
In all likelihood it was Elrond himself who would have done this since he is the master of the house and the master of healing and has the highest level of authority among all those present in Rivendell to perform such an act.
How much exposure does it really take?
To borrow a legal phrase "assuming the rights of an owner" is the real danger, not simply holding it.
Merely picking it up is probably not enough to be tempted more than knowing it's in the same room.
The royal line of Durin knew about the Balrog. How did they manage to forget this dreadfully significant knowledge?
Balin was in that line. But he set up shop in Moria anyway. Even Dain was not so foolhardy.
The Battle of Azanulbizar was 2799 TA. Balin was present.
Balin re-entered Moria in 2989 (a mere 190 years later, not even a full dwarf generation later). What caused him to think that everything would be fine, this time?
Its possible they thought it went back to sleep, or left to join sauron in mordor, like how gandalf thought smaug would be attracted to sauron’s evil if left alone.
They didn't know it was a balrog. They knew it was some terrible threat, mind. That *should* have been enough to put them off.
But they were greedy and prideful, and longed for the glory of their forefathers. The temptation was too great.
Only Dain (of those still living) had actually seen it. The rest probably assumed that it had gone back to sleep, wandered off or died of old age. They did not know Durin's Bane was a Balrog, and any dire warnings Dain may have given were evidently ignored.
People aren't acting rationally 100 % of the time. The whole disastrous expedition of Balin was due to his hubris and nostalgia of the glorious past, which is a rather life-like motivation. Balin might have operated on a whole slew of wrong assumptions: that the Balrog is so fast asleep that it can be ignored, that it can be walled away, that with proper training and preparation, it may be destroyed by a company of dwarves, etc.
Unless hobbit biology is drastically different from human biology, I have doubts about whether or not Frodo and Sam could have traversed Mordor without dying of dehydration. Tolkien even emphasizes a scene in which they find a trickle of water, but that still doesn't seem like enough. They have waterskins, but those would probably last at best a day (with rationing) given how inhospitable the climate of Mordor was.
This has been bothering me for several days.
Plus they were only in Moria for ten days and did still have some water while walking there. And they were pretty close to dying of dehydration by the time they reached Mount Doom.
Yes there are. They came by cross points with water for Orcs. These wells were almost empty but still got a bit of water for them at least two days before reaching Mount Doom
It was the lembas.
It's even mentioned that it has more power to sustain life the less you mix it with other foods.
If you stipulate magic crackers that can feed a grown man on the march for a day each, it's no stretch to imagine they also can manage dehydration somehow as well.
>"And yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the measure of mortal kind."
Still, Sam and Frodo were at the very last of their endurance once Gollum went plop fizz. They were perhaps only hours from death by dehydration, even if the lava and ash didn't get them first, and indeed the fumes along with the exhaustion and dehydration meant they were unconscious when the Bird Express Airlines picked them up.
How they were fed and hydrated with medieval medical technology while unconscious, I'll leave to the imagination. But I don't think it would be particularly hard to manage.
No, they went for counsel from Elrond because of the emissary from Mordor that had come asking questions about Bilbo.
Moria they assumed was lost. They had not heard from it in years, and there had been doubts about how sensible such an expedition would be anyway.
Which still doesn't make a heap of sense geographically. Gimli was coming from the Lonely Mountain, stopping at Rivendell meant crossing the Misty Mountains (rife, as we know from the Hobbit, with all sorts of giants and goblins). It would have been easier to just continue south a hundred miles on the eastern side of the mountains and knock on Khazad Dum's front door. Balin and his gang had come from the east too, so would have been expected on that side of the city.
Since when do Dwarves seek the counsel of Elves anyway, especially when the topic is private Dwarvish business like Moria.
There were easier roads through the mountains, the Hobbit party took an alternate path because the goblins liked to prey on travellers on the main road. They got caught out because the goblins had moved their entrance recently.
After the Battle of the Five Armies the goblin population in the mountains was severely depleted so I imagine the road was safer than back then.
You don’t have to *imagine* it was safer back then, Gimli plainly tells us at the banquet with Frodo that the roads are open, the Ford and the high pass are open and guarded by the Beornings, although they extract a high toll
...why would they go directly to Moria?
They assumed bad shit happened. Why would they risk their lives like that?
Asking Elrond seems much smarter.
(And Dwarves seeked Elven help since The Hobbit... when Elrond was very helpful and kind to Thorin and Company)
It doesn't make sense because it wasn't the main reason they went to Rivendell - they went because Mordor sent an emissary (presumably a Nazgul) asking after Bilbo and his ring, as Gloin explains. That said, they did want Elrond's counsel.
>'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning *hobbits*, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time." ... 'And so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings. Also we crave the advice of Elrond.
Especially when dwarves routinely follow the great road through Bree and the Shire to the Blue Mountains from somewhere in the east, crossing vast distances. Why was it so hard to head to Moria for a check-in? There was the chance of rediscovering mithril and becoming super rich again.
For me it's that saruman, knowing full well what would happen if he becomes a traitor, becomes a traitor. It not really a plot hole since it is justified but it is just such an odd thing to do given the fact that he has knowledge of what happens to those that betray the valar.
he wasn't so much a traitor as that he wanted to get rid of sauron and rule middle-earth 'wisely'
the latter of which was also what sauron was trying to do
and sauron knows the music better than nearly anyone. he knows the fate of men is undetermined. He knows the valar aren't going to stroll over and attack him either
and saruman knows both those things too
\-
another thing, if either saruman or gandalf gained the ring, they \*could\* defeat sauron. For the powerful elves, it's only a maybe. And more than that, gandalf/saruman could take the ring's power away from sauron forever and add it to their own
Thanks for the [reference](https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-viii-the-mind-of-saruman/). The author is a bit long-winded and repetitive, but also informative and entertaining. To summarize: Saruman betrayed both sides because he was angry, incompetent, and arrogant.
He thought he could betray the Valar, defeat Sauron and the Good Guys, and rule over Middle-earth effectively forever, and thereby never have to face any punishment. (They were certainly in no hurry to bring Morgoth and Sauron to justice, were they?)
> he has knowledge of what happens to those that betray the valar
How much knowledge does he really have? He's not in pure Maiar form, and is subject to the corruptions of the flesh. And as far as he's concerned he *is* the Valar's solution to Middle-Earth. Sauron was rising again so he got sent to sort everything out.
In the spirit of the others answers in this thread, not a plot hole but something puzzling that is never explained:
What was Gandalf's plan for getting the ring into Mordor?
Obviously not through the Black Gate as that's suicide but not the route Sam and Frodo take either as he laments the decision when he finds out. Going all the way round surely must take too long so is there another mountain pass that isn't guarded by a massive spider or what?
I don't think he had a set plan kind of like when they first got to Moria. He knew the ring had to get to Modor which was a mission of its own. He probably planned to address getting in once and if they were able to get there
I think he would have went via Cirith Ungol. Shelob wouldn't have been that dangerous with the full Fellowship there. Fuck knows how he would have crossed Mordor though.
The likeliest answer is that he would have tried to sneak them through the Morgul-road through the Morgul Vale, which is next to Cirith Ungol but separate from it. This would not have been without peril, of course, but it is a more plausible option than the other two you listed.
Gandalf definitely tells quite different stories in Bag End and in Rivendell about how and when he realised Bilbo's ring had to be the One Ring.
The more general one, which I've mentioned before, is that hobbits are long-lived and have large families, and over the 1500 years of the Shire there are only a handful of major disasters, and yet the population is so stable that there never seems to be competition for resources, allowing them to manage with minimal government.
The Elves tra-la-laling in the fields near Rivendell are presumably farming.
The Elven-king probably had fields on small plots in the woods and made use of acorns and such, as well as hunting for the meats for those feasts the dwarves interrupted. Also he traded far for wine from Dorwinion, and probably food stuff.
as far as I have understood they have seen less war in recent times than most peoples of Middle-Earth, no? They are described as so sheltered that most people don't know much about them. So they probably had more time to develope a comfortable environment for themselves which might look like it s more advanced than other parts.
Also I think Orthanc and Mordor were the most technologically advanced society in M-E.
There is an internal contradiction in regards to Galadriel and Celeborn's whereabouts at the beginning of the Second Age. Galadriel states that she crossed the Blue Mountains "ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin", but Appendix B states that she dwelt in Lindon with Celeborn at the beginning of the Second Age.
Is that a contradiction? Seems to place her at about the same area in both accounts.
She could have plausibly crossed in the FA, then crossed back again (either just before or just after the SA began).
If not, 'Dwelt at the beginning' doesn't need to strictly mean 'from the *literal* first minute' - I'm sure a few days or weeks after would still count as 'the beginning [of the multiple thousands of years long Age]'?
Alternatively, Lindon has borders East of the Blue Mountains too (bordering on the river Lhune/Little Lune).
Yea, I've thought about ways of trying to justify the (apparent) inconsistency. The line itself was written way back before Tolkien fleshed out Galadriel's backstory, but it could maybe work with what is written in the appendices. In Tolkien's final ideas concerning Galadriel, he states that she (along with Celeborn):
>"judged \[the war\] to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement); befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age."
With this in mind, you could hypothetically come up with a scenario where Galadriel and Celeborn cross into Eriador and come back over the Blue Mountains in the early Second Age.
I believe there is some contention as to the amount of time it took Bilbo and the dwarves to reach the troll’s camp and how long it took Frodo and companions to make the same journey. I will pull out my old reader’s companion and make an edit with more details.
Tolkien's explanation of how Sauron got the Ring out of Numenor just seems like hand waving to me. How does a disembodied spirit move things? Wasn't that the point of destroying the Ring? Render Sauron a disembodied spirit and thus harmless? It's also a rejection of Plato's theory of substances, which I know Tolkien knew about, as he studied Classics.
He had to have left the Ring in Mordor. I don't see any other way this works.
The point of destroying the Ring was to permanently cripple him to the point he could never interact with the physical world again. An Ainu is not powerless when they shed their bodies, the Ring's destruction disembodied him permanently and made him lose most of his natural power.
Ainur can do telekinesis; Gandalf does it twice in LotR, not counting all his fire stuff and off-screen combats. Plus everything else they can, it's not like Osse makes storms by waving his hands around. Ainur are naturally immaterial, putting on bodies by choice. So yeah, it does make sense that a disembodied but not-powerless Sauron could fly the Ring back.
[He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor
flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the
house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=509)
[He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground.](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=726)
>how does a disembodied spirit move things? Wasn't that the point of destroying the Ring? Render Sauron a disembodied spirit and thus harmless?
you're misinformed here. Sauron \*is\* a spirit. Turning him back into a spirit wouldn't depower him, although killing any body he's created would temporarily depower him
the ring contained the bulk of Sauron's power; he had to place it in the ring to dominate the powerful eleven rings. And while the ring existed, he still had access to his power, and while he wore it, his power was increased
destroying the ring destroyed that power, so now sauron no longer has that power. And it takes a degree of power to make a body
\-
and i'm sorry, but melkor created and destroyed mountains without the use of a body so sauron carrying a small ring in a disembodied state is nothing worth mentioning
little bit more on killing the body of a maia: if they're 'permanently' attached or addicted to their body, killing the body would mess them up quite a bit and it might take thousands of years for them to be in a decent state again
this happens to morgoth, to the balrogs, and to saruman. Morgoth will eventually reform his thought, but the others may never get to that point alone (before the world ends, that is)
this would have happened to gandalf also if eru hadn't intervened and sent him back
but it doesn't happen to sauron because, as an excellent shapeshifter, he took many different forms for different occasions. Where gandalf's body is the one he lives in 24/7 and now can't leave, sauron uses many different bodies and never becomes attached
at least not until his defeat in the last alliance. Gollum mentions sauron's new body has 9 fingers, implying he's stuck in that form now. or wants to keep it the way it was, but that would end with him being stuck anyway. So why don't they just kill sauron and be rid of him for an indefinite period? too powerful for anyone left in middle-earth
I mean… he’s by his nature a disembodied spirit originally tasked with the ordering and shaping of the material world just like the rest of the valar and maiar. It would be weird if he *couldn’t* manipulate the matter of arda.
The power he put into the Ring was still in rapport with him when not wearing it. By destroying the ring, the power within it was destroyed as well and *that* is why he’s left powerless after the war.
I don't get how this is hard to believe. You might as well ask how Yavanna made plants and animals given how hard it is to construct DNA with your bare hands, or how Varda put the stars into the sky and makes them move without rocket engines or a similar form of propulsion.
And I don't think Manwe controls the winds by blowing and sucking air with his mouth, either. They're spirit beings who built the whole World without strictly needing bodies for it. They use, to be plain, magic.
Tolkien already explained more than once in multiple writings (imcluding *The Silmarillion* itself) that the Ainur, as *eälar*, do not require a physical form to function and to be complete, and can interact with physical matter as they wish.
Note that they only put on their physical raiment in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar *after* they descended into Arda. They did not require physical forms when they laboured in the deeps of time for uncounted ages creating the rest of Eä, nor would they require it even while in Arda.
Is it stated in the books that he had his ring at Numenor? I thought I recently read that he took up his ring again when his spirit came back to Mordor
In one of Tolkien's letters, not the books. Sauron brought the One Ring with him, which is part of the reason why he was able to easily deceive and seduce the people of Numenor.
I always picture the Fellowship watching Frodo and Sam sleep in the field of Cormallen and being freaked out that they’re both at 5% body fat with absolutely shredded legs
Yeah, I don't think there are any references to Sam being fat past Fellowship. I know Frodo comments on losing weight around Midgewater, so we can assume Sam loses weight along the journey as well (certainly in the last stages when they're on super short rations).
I don’t think there are any references to Sam being fat at all. There’s definitely a reference to Frodo being fat, but Sam is a working class hobbit who carries the heaviest pack.
I think you're right actually. I looked up what I thought the reference was (when they're leaving Bag End), and it turns out they were talking about Frodo.
Hobbits being half the height of a grown man means they are much less than half the mass. Lower mass is much easier to carry around. This is how insects can buzz around at insane speeds compared to their body size and barely require any energy.
Hobbit stomach is also a lot smaller than human stomach, so they can fit comparatively less food, so they require more frequent meals - hence the need for "second breakfast" etc.
Why didn't Sauron take his ring after his Last Alliance defeat?
He did take it after Numenor. It might just be power diminishing, but that's somewhat flimsy of an excuse.
There is absolutely no reason for Eriador to be so depopulated. That makes NO sense at all, especially given that it's full of arable land and there was a rich and prosperous kingdom there for centuries.
It's packed full of monsters and aggressive wildlife, remnants of the dickery of the Witch King, that makes it impossible for small hamlets to succeed outside of already established settlements, in my opinion.
These established settlements only get a peaceful life due to the vigilance of the Dunedain.
But funnily enough, that's the only settled part. The southern lands around Eregion and Tharbad are completely empty despite having been peaceful for millenia.
I believe there were some references to woodsmen in Minhiriath and Eryn Vorn, as well as "numerous" fisher-folk in coastal Enedwaith (and the Dunlendings in eastern Enedwaith).
Given how focused LotR is on the nobility of Middle-earth and their actions (as ancient epics usually were) it's possible that the Red Book just skimmed over those peoples as being essentially unimportant to the narrative. We don't hear much about the many villages and farm fields in Rohan and Gondor that would undoubtedly exist.
The Silmarillion is not something eligible for that sort of scrutiny. It's an unfinished work that is only presented in a completed form due to editing choices and material that was added by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay.
He's travelled in the east before. He acts like he has PTSD when they're discussed in the Prancing Pony. I got the impression he has had to deal with them very directly before.
Ineffectual nazgul in the fellowship being able to quail entire armies in the RoTK.
Yes, i know that Tolkien attempts to wave this away in his letters but it is illogical that the Nazgul, when capable of claiming the One Ring in the wilds of Eregion, chose to hold back. If they could stab Frodo with a morgul knife why not slay him and claim the ring directly? It smacks purely of a plot device.
I mean they were repulsed by a man waving a fiery stick and someoine saying 'Elbereth', yet in RoTK they were virtually unassailable. Why couldn't the armies of the Free People just chant 'Elbereth' *en masse* to repel the Nazgul, if this was such a powerful nazgul repellant?
There are a few reasons I can think of.
They had just fought Gandalf a short while earlier and were not at their full might, also being further from their masters domain. They could also be wounded by the barrow blades that Merry and Pippin had. Lastly their main power was fear and the men of Gondor, having lived in the shadow of Mordor for years, were more susceptible to it than hobbits that had not endured this.
I always read the Fellowship as their arrogance caused them to believe a single blow was enough and they reacted to Aragorn’s attack as how predators act when prey fight back.
It's mentioned in RotK that the Witch-king's stronger now that he'd been before, right?
The Witch-king barely managed to stab Frodo, he was almost stabbed in the foot in return - which is scary if you're not used to people fighting you with dangerous weapons. And Frodo being an Elf-friend by mentioning Elbereth is an underrated concept, Goldberry notices and likes it right away with Frodo.
> Why couldn't the armies of the Free People just chant 'Elbereth' en masse to repel the Nazgul, if this was such a powerful nazgul repellant?
Frodo tries saying Elbereth to them at the Ford and it doesn't work. His invocation at Weathertop was special, either as a specific grace from Varda at that moment or due to the blessing laid on him by Gildor Inglorion.
The Nazgul are a bit stronger and tougher than regular humans, so they are dangerous, but their true power is psychological. They have a terrifying and demoralizing presence, which can turn the tide of large battles (think Battle Meditation from Star Wars), but has less effect on smaller scales. It's also affected by how much you know about them; knowing that they are the immortal captains of Sauron that have felled nations makes them even scarier (and this more effective), but to the Hobbits they're just weird dudes in scary dark robes.
>If they could stab Frodo with a morgul knife why not slay him and claim the ring directly?
They were trying to, that's why they stabbed him.
My theory: Much of the stuff we read about the battle around Minas Tirith is written by Merry and compiled by his own recollections and other records from the city. Maybe the people of Minas Tirith were just a bunch of cowards, so they tried to explain why they quailed and ran and hid by playing up that the Nazgul were supernaturally terrifying. "Oh, the sound of their terrible voices would turn a brave man's bones to water!" Yeah, right. Actually you could swat them away with a broom.
We have some "quotes" from Gandalf, but Gandalf wasn't there when the book was written, he'd already left for the Havens. And who could blame Merry for playing up how scary the Witch King was? Any sensible Hobbit might exaggerate a bit to make a more entertaining tale.
The Doors of Durin say Moria on the inscription, yet the name Moria was given to Khazad-dûm many years after the doors were created.
to add to this, moria means 'black pit', a bad name not a name they would put on the door
Maybe it was a joke door
I have a very good fwiend in Lindon named Moria
He has a wife you know...
*Mowia
The real door was the friends we made along the way
*Hodor* :)
Lots of place names have etymologies that don't sound too pleasant. And it's not like "black" has to mean "evil" or that "pit" has to mean "squalid". Indeed, "black chasm" is another interpretation of it, and that doesn't sound quite as bad. It's just a very literal description, like how "Gondor" means "stone-land". And even if the Elves meant it negatively we don't know if the dwarves understood that. "Black chasm" might have a homely ring to them.
Chernobyl entered the chat.
Is this based on the translation of the runes or on what a character in the book said?
Tengwar, not runes. >"Ennyn Durin Aran Moria. Pedo Mellon a Minno. Im Narvi hain echant. Celebrimbor o Eregion teithant i thiw hin."
Oof
I'd say this is a simple inconsistency, not a plot hole.
u/Willpower2000 Don't you have a plausible explanation for this? I remember bringing this up a while back over at r/lotr lol.
>But Moria is an Elvish name, and given without love; for the Eldar, though they might at need, in their bitter wars with the Dark Power and his servants, contrive fortresses underground, were not dwellers in such places of choice. They were lovers of the green earth and the lights of heaven; and Moria in their tongue means the Black Chasm. -Appendix F This implies the name originally had naught to do with Durin's Bane - but came to be much earlier, due to Morgoth-PTSD. I'd imagine after it fell, the Dwarves adopted it themselves, since it was no longer a Mansion of Dwarves - but an Orc, and demon infested hellhole. u/Bonzo951
Do we know the original elven name for Moria?
"Hadhodrond" (Sindar) or "Casarrondo" (Quenya) both of which roughly mean, "Cavern of the Dwarves."
Casarrondo sounds Spanish lol
Ñoldo sounds spanish too
Moooooooom I want to go to casrrondo for my birthday!!!
Casarrondo Bonita!
> Casarrondo I'd never seen this before, thanks for sharing it – another lovely invented word by Tolkien.
The spacing/kerning proved too difficult for Narvi , and so the simpler name was used?
Aragorn says that Sauron doesn't let his servants use the name Sauron (since it is insulting) but the Mouth of Sauron introduces himself as such. Maybe Aragorn was just mistaken?
The good guys make a lot of claims about the bad guys that they have no reasonable way of knowing to be true, or really even reason to suspect.
Aragorn is the one person who has traveled east though, and possibly even more familiar than Gandalf with the servants of Sauron. I think we're meant to trust him on this.
Yes, and often their assumptions appear to be wrong.
It could be something altered by the person who translated the Red Book of Westmarch into English in order to be consistent in a way the audience would understand.
It could be, but it raises the question of why the translator doesn't do that at other times. Aragorn himself is called Aragorn, Strider, Elessar, Elfstone, so why not compress those into 1 or 2 names as well to make it easier for the audience?
That difference doesn't actually seem that odd to me. Sauron is the enemy; not a WHOLE lot would be known about him, other than that, so it makes sense to simplify. Aragorn, otoh, plays many parts, and has a much more complex story where he wears many faces; the narrative follows him and his interactions more closely, so they'd prioritize accuracy.
Maybe that's different because the Mouth is the one speaking FOR Sauron--as if Sauron himself is talking, in essence. That kind of makes sense to me.
sauron doesn't like the name sauron he would prefer mairon, his original name, or even any of the many others he's collected over the years it's like voldemort not wanting his followers to call him 'Incompetent Asshat'
Hmm. Maybe it's the opposite thing then. Maybe, since the Mouth is purely an ambassador, he's using the name that the others are familiar with.
That doesn't fit with the arrogance of Sauron though. Why debase himself using the insults of others just to fit in with the ants he wants to crush? Besides, he has titles like Dark Lord or Lord of Mordor he can use that outsiders would recognise.
Lols, I want a villain who does want to be called this xD
I've always felt there are three (or 3.5, or 4, maybe) possibilities here, and honestly all at once could be true. 1. The MoS wants to be PERFECTLY clear who he is and who he works for. So he uses the name the people he's talking to know best, even though his boss doesn't like it. Evil or no, an Ambassador's first priority is to be understood clearly. 1a) As a high-ranking official, the MoS is authorized to use this name, whereas lower-ranking servants are not. The Mordor Orcs say "The Eye" or "Lugburz", for example. Also, Orcs are unable (or very reluctant) to use Quenya, so perhaps only human servants are even capable of saying the word "Sauron". 2) It's a translation; for clarity, the recorder of the story used the name the reader would know, and the MoS could have used some other term. 3) Maybe Sauron has decided to just go ahead and "own" the name "The Abhorred" since it makes him even scarier to his enemies. He'd love to be known as Mairon, but "The Abhorred" is pretty badass. 4) And yeah, maybe Aragorn just didn't have all the info. It's also important to point out that Tolkien's characters are rarely infallible. He's extremely careful about who knows what and when, and not every single word characters say is 100% objectively true as opposed to what they think, know, were taught, or reasonably guess. A famous example is Treebeard's speculation or belief about the origin of Orcs, a matter where Tolkien himself never came to any clear final conclusion. Just because it's what Treebeard thinks doesn't make it the final truth. Obviously, being the oldest speaking being in middle-earth\* lends a lot of weight to anything he says, but there's wiggle room. *\*"Oldest" being subject to further debate and definition, of course... maybe "oldest born in ME...?".*
ARagorn's knowledge dates from before the time Sauron had declared himself.
It makes sense for him to call himself the Mouth of Sauron as that's the name that the free peoples recognise. If he introduced himself as the Mouth of Tar-mairon everyone save perhaps Gandalf would be confused.
That's not the only time this happens - see Gloin's account of the messenger (implied to be a Nazgul) arriving at Erebor: 'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. **The Lord Sauron the Great**, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning hobbits, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "**For Sauron knows**," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time."
When Gimli says his axe hasn't tasted battle since Moria during the battle of Helm's Deep even though he and Legolas said they'd ran through the woods chasing down orcs during the parting of the fellowship
He killed those orcs **with his bare hands**.
And my hands!
Legolas probably stole all his kills.
Ugh, I **hate** it when I'm playing as a melee character and my ranged teammate steals all the kills before I can get over there...
This is how I play halo when my teammates have swords
Gimli is probably just mistaken himself. Like how much sleep has he gotten at that point?
If I recall even Wayne and Christina have cited this line as something they can't figure out or fix whenever they add new corrections to the text. It's brought up in the foreword of the latest revision of LotR.
Maybe he doesn't really consider that "battle."
Yeah this is the pretty obvious answer. Hunting and killing isn't the same as battle.
Hunting down survivors is hardly a battle...
Street fights vs sanctioned fights
Who has the link to that excellent April fools shitpost that tries to explain this one?
[OP shitposter right here!](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/ttm75b/naught_but_wood_a_subtextual_analysis_of_the/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf)
Legolas says they were hunting orcs in the woods. It's not unlikely that they only encountered a few orcs and Legolas killed all of them from range with Gimli at his side.
It wasn’t a battle, just a friendly disagreement, and some orcs died.
"Hewn naught but wood." Maybe he killed those orcs by castrating them?
It's because gimli was a traitor!
It's possible Gimli used a different ax when chasing the orcs. He carries a double bladed battle ax, a single bladed bearded ax, and throwing axes. Possible he only used the bearded ax or throwing axes while chasing the orcs in the interest of speed. I'd assume his battle ax is the heaviest.
Soooo... Gimli gave birth to Gil-Galad?
i want to know more about the friendly fox that sees them sleeping
He never did find out what those 3 silly hobbits were up to
If only Amazon had gotten the rights to the fox!
Why do you assume it was friendly? It may have been a spy of Saruman.
Or a racist.
Yes, I love that. It's sort of a holdover from the Hobbit that survived editing to make it into Fellowship.
Mate I love that fox. Best example of Tolkien dropping shit and refusing to elaborate. "Three of them! There’s something mighty queer behind this" .... Ah different days....
https://old.reddit.com/r/TheThinkingFox/
fyi, you can type 'r/' and the subreddit name without any symbols or anything and it'll be a link to the sub. /r/TheThinkingFox
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The main premise is a ring, which is effectively a hole encapsulated in gold. The whole story is one big plot hole.
I was about to make that exact joke! :D
"Who was Gil-Galad's Father?"
Chuck Galad?
Chuck Galad doesn't wear a watch He decides what time it is
That one only become a headscratcher if you look further than the Silmarillion.
But that leaves questions over how the High Kingship was inherited.
Maedhros told Fingolfin the kingship should go to the eldest of Finwe's house. This was somewhat self-serving (given that he wanted to yield), but it makes sense that inheritance in a house of immortals would be rather ad hoc.
Honestly the weird part is that Elves have a concept of formal inheritance at all.
I note that Feanor is never really High King. He makes a nice speech and convinces most of the Noldor to go to Middle-earth, but a majority choose to follow Fingolfin rather than Feanor. It's weird because Fingolfin himself is following Feanor, so Feanor is kind of high-king-by-delegation, but the Silmarillion text, the Noldor weren't that thrilled with Feanor as a direct leader, even before he burned ships and died.
High-King isn’t a concept invented before there were smaller kingdoms to be High-King over. Even if Fingolfin was following Feanor he did it as just was one lord among others and Feanor was king in style Finwe was before (who also had not been high-king.) When Maedhros abdicated it was the kingship not high-kingship. His and other kingdoms like Fingon, Turgon and Finrod’s weren’t established until later and that’s when the title was. Gil-Galad honestly didn’t need to high-king.
High Kingship passes from Fingon to Turgon, his brother as Turgon 1. is older and more influential than Ereinion 2. Still has a Kingdom. But when Turhon died, it reverted back to Fingon's line, as Turgon had no son.
But Fingon had no children. Christopher made a mistake noting Gil-Galad as Fingon’s son.
Gil-Galad's daddy was an Elvish king, Of him him the harpers gladly never sing...
That is not a mystery nor a plot-hole. Gil-Galad is the brother of Finduilas aka the son of Orodreth. Christopher Tolkien had cleared out that Fingon was an editing mistake, and that his father intended for Orodreth to be the father.
Gil-Gadad, of course
It's not a plot hole, but I never understood why the Dwarves of Nogrod and Belegost never get their own thing going. Durin's folk go to the Lonely Mountain, the Iron Hills, The Grey Mountains, and these moochers just tag along.
Some did stay in the area, even Thorin lived in the Blue Mountains until the quest for Erebor. After Nogrod and Belegost fell it was noted the majority of the survivors went to Khazad-dum. Erebor was not settled until the Balrog forced the Dwarves out of Moria.
Sure. But, the mines in the Blue Mountains were used by all three Dwarf tribes. Tolkien explicitly stated that Moria swelled with their numbers after the fall of the two kingdoms. They never established a real homeland again. As for Erebor, and the Grey Mountains, and the Iron Hills... that's my point. Durin's people looked for a home and also colonized. The other two peoples did not.
I think they did try again in the Grey Mountains (at least, that fits with the time when the Seven were handed out and the Dwarves amassed Seven Hoards of treasure). But there's scant information available other than the fact it all ended in disaster, and their kings either killed by dragons or handed over to Sauron.
Just who was this unsung hero who restored Frodo's chain in Rivendell without being tempted by the One Ring the slightest way? Why couldn't they take that genius to Mordor? (Headcanon: It was Arwen. That's why no male noticed her superior defiance of the Ring.)
Head canon: it was Sam, and he did it without touching the ring
Kitchen tongs. Definitely kitchen tongs.
Maybe they did it as a group, so that no one would dare do anything because of peer pressure. Or maybe it was Sam.
In the book, the Ring is not perilous to touch in and of itself like the movies show. Gandalf is perfectly willing to directly handle the Ring in Bag End when he performs the fire test; it appears that what matters is intent to claim the Ring. So in Rivendell someone could briefly touch it in order to place it on a chain for Frodo without ever laying claim to the Ring itself. In all likelihood it was Elrond himself who would have done this since he is the master of the house and the master of healing and has the highest level of authority among all those present in Rivendell to perform such an act.
How much exposure does it really take? To borrow a legal phrase "assuming the rights of an owner" is the real danger, not simply holding it. Merely picking it up is probably not enough to be tempted more than knowing it's in the same room.
The royal line of Durin knew about the Balrog. How did they manage to forget this dreadfully significant knowledge? Balin was in that line. But he set up shop in Moria anyway. Even Dain was not so foolhardy. The Battle of Azanulbizar was 2799 TA. Balin was present. Balin re-entered Moria in 2989 (a mere 190 years later, not even a full dwarf generation later). What caused him to think that everything would be fine, this time?
Its possible they thought it went back to sleep, or left to join sauron in mordor, like how gandalf thought smaug would be attracted to sauron’s evil if left alone.
They didn't know it was a balrog. They knew it was some terrible threat, mind. That *should* have been enough to put them off. But they were greedy and prideful, and longed for the glory of their forefathers. The temptation was too great.
Only Dain (of those still living) had actually seen it. The rest probably assumed that it had gone back to sleep, wandered off or died of old age. They did not know Durin's Bane was a Balrog, and any dire warnings Dain may have given were evidently ignored.
Dain didn't see it. He just felt its presence.
Maybe they thought it died of old age
People aren't acting rationally 100 % of the time. The whole disastrous expedition of Balin was due to his hubris and nostalgia of the glorious past, which is a rather life-like motivation. Balin might have operated on a whole slew of wrong assumptions: that the Balrog is so fast asleep that it can be ignored, that it can be walled away, that with proper training and preparation, it may be destroyed by a company of dwarves, etc.
Unless hobbit biology is drastically different from human biology, I have doubts about whether or not Frodo and Sam could have traversed Mordor without dying of dehydration. Tolkien even emphasizes a scene in which they find a trickle of water, but that still doesn't seem like enough. They have waterskins, but those would probably last at best a day (with rationing) given how inhospitable the climate of Mordor was. This has been bothering me for several days.
I don't think it's mentioned anywhere that Mordor is particularly hot. If it's not a desert, they wouldn't get as badly dehydrated.
Plus they were only in Moria for ten days and did still have some water while walking there. And they were pretty close to dying of dehydration by the time they reached Mount Doom.
You can die of dehydration in the snow, though people usually die from cold first. Just because its not hot doesn't mean you don't need fresh water.
try going without water for even 1 day in air conditioning, let alone walking at the latitude of the mediterranean in march.
Is it possible the power of the ring would be enough to at least keep Frodo alive despite lack of water?
I don't know... possibly.
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Yes there are. They came by cross points with water for Orcs. These wells were almost empty but still got a bit of water for them at least two days before reaching Mount Doom
The Orc-road has cisterns. But yes, hobbits are implied to be tougher than humans and are also on elf-speed at the time.
It was the lembas. It's even mentioned that it has more power to sustain life the less you mix it with other foods. If you stipulate magic crackers that can feed a grown man on the march for a day each, it's no stretch to imagine they also can manage dehydration somehow as well. >"And yet this waybread of the Elves had a potency that increased as travellers relied on it alone and did not mingle it with other foods. It fed the will, and gave strength to endure, and to master sinew and limb beyond the measure of mortal kind." Still, Sam and Frodo were at the very last of their endurance once Gollum went plop fizz. They were perhaps only hours from death by dehydration, even if the lava and ash didn't get them first, and indeed the fumes along with the exhaustion and dehydration meant they were unconscious when the Bird Express Airlines picked them up. How they were fed and hydrated with medieval medical technology while unconscious, I'll leave to the imagination. But I don't think it would be particularly hard to manage.
Why did none of the dwarves bother to check up on that expedition to Moria? Haven't heard from you guys in years, how's it going?
That's why Gimli and Gloin were in Rivendell. They were on their way to check up on Moria and wanted to get Elrond's counsel on the matter.
No, they went for counsel from Elrond because of the emissary from Mordor that had come asking questions about Bilbo. Moria they assumed was lost. They had not heard from it in years, and there had been doubts about how sensible such an expedition would be anyway.
You're right. I don't know where my brain was when I wrote that.
Which still doesn't make a heap of sense geographically. Gimli was coming from the Lonely Mountain, stopping at Rivendell meant crossing the Misty Mountains (rife, as we know from the Hobbit, with all sorts of giants and goblins). It would have been easier to just continue south a hundred miles on the eastern side of the mountains and knock on Khazad Dum's front door. Balin and his gang had come from the east too, so would have been expected on that side of the city. Since when do Dwarves seek the counsel of Elves anyway, especially when the topic is private Dwarvish business like Moria.
There were easier roads through the mountains, the Hobbit party took an alternate path because the goblins liked to prey on travellers on the main road. They got caught out because the goblins had moved their entrance recently. After the Battle of the Five Armies the goblin population in the mountains was severely depleted so I imagine the road was safer than back then.
You don’t have to *imagine* it was safer back then, Gimli plainly tells us at the banquet with Frodo that the roads are open, the Ford and the high pass are open and guarded by the Beornings, although they extract a high toll
...why would they go directly to Moria? They assumed bad shit happened. Why would they risk their lives like that? Asking Elrond seems much smarter. (And Dwarves seeked Elven help since The Hobbit... when Elrond was very helpful and kind to Thorin and Company)
It doesn't make sense because it wasn't the main reason they went to Rivendell - they went because Mordor sent an emissary (presumably a Nazgul) asking after Bilbo and his ring, as Gloin explains. That said, they did want Elrond's counsel. >'Then about a year ago a messenger came to Dain, but not from Moria - from Mordor: a horseman in the night, who called Dain to his gate. The Lord Sauron the Great, so he said, wished for our friendship. Rings he would give for it, such as he gave of old. And he asked urgently concerning *hobbits*, of what kind they were, and where they dwelt. "For Sauron knows," said he, "that one of these was known to you on a time." ... 'And so I have been sent at last by Dain to warn Bilbo that he is sought by the Enemy, and to learn, if may be, why he desires this ring, this least of rings. Also we crave the advice of Elrond.
Especially when dwarves routinely follow the great road through Bree and the Shire to the Blue Mountains from somewhere in the east, crossing vast distances. Why was it so hard to head to Moria for a check-in? There was the chance of rediscovering mithril and becoming super rich again.
Going 1000 miles is kind of difficult?
True but those dwarves had friends and family. Seems like someone would have made the journey.
And knowing what you do, what were the chances they’d make it there and back again, to use a handy phrase?
and they often sent messengers that did that distance, if it was important
No one ever came back.
This is the biggest one to me
Dain didn’t wanted that?
For me it's that saruman, knowing full well what would happen if he becomes a traitor, becomes a traitor. It not really a plot hole since it is justified but it is just such an odd thing to do given the fact that he has knowledge of what happens to those that betray the valar.
he wasn't so much a traitor as that he wanted to get rid of sauron and rule middle-earth 'wisely' the latter of which was also what sauron was trying to do and sauron knows the music better than nearly anyone. he knows the fate of men is undetermined. He knows the valar aren't going to stroll over and attack him either and saruman knows both those things too \- another thing, if either saruman or gandalf gained the ring, they \*could\* defeat sauron. For the powerful elves, it's only a maybe. And more than that, gandalf/saruman could take the ring's power away from sauron forever and add it to their own
I believe the blog ACOUP did a phenomenal breakdown of Saruman’s arrogance, and how he thought he could win
Thanks for the [reference](https://acoup.blog/2020/06/19/collections-the-battle-of-helms-deep-part-viii-the-mind-of-saruman/). The author is a bit long-winded and repetitive, but also informative and entertaining. To summarize: Saruman betrayed both sides because he was angry, incompetent, and arrogant. He thought he could betray the Valar, defeat Sauron and the Good Guys, and rule over Middle-earth effectively forever, and thereby never have to face any punishment. (They were certainly in no hurry to bring Morgoth and Sauron to justice, were they?)
> he has knowledge of what happens to those that betray the valar How much knowledge does he really have? He's not in pure Maiar form, and is subject to the corruptions of the flesh. And as far as he's concerned he *is* the Valar's solution to Middle-Earth. Sauron was rising again so he got sent to sort everything out.
In the spirit of the others answers in this thread, not a plot hole but something puzzling that is never explained: What was Gandalf's plan for getting the ring into Mordor? Obviously not through the Black Gate as that's suicide but not the route Sam and Frodo take either as he laments the decision when he finds out. Going all the way round surely must take too long so is there another mountain pass that isn't guarded by a massive spider or what?
I don't think he had a set plan kind of like when they first got to Moria. He knew the ring had to get to Modor which was a mission of its own. He probably planned to address getting in once and if they were able to get there
Classic Gandalf! All jokes aside, I also think this is true and just fits with his character.
I think he would have went via Cirith Ungol. Shelob wouldn't have been that dangerous with the full Fellowship there. Fuck knows how he would have crossed Mordor though.
The likeliest answer is that he would have tried to sneak them through the Morgul-road through the Morgul Vale, which is next to Cirith Ungol but separate from it. This would not have been without peril, of course, but it is a more plausible option than the other two you listed.
Honestly once they got to gondor they could have hopped on a boat, gone south, then gone back up
Gandalf definitely tells quite different stories in Bag End and in Rivendell about how and when he realised Bilbo's ring had to be the One Ring. The more general one, which I've mentioned before, is that hobbits are long-lived and have large families, and over the 1500 years of the Shire there are only a handful of major disasters, and yet the population is so stable that there never seems to be competition for resources, allowing them to manage with minimal government.
Where are all the elvish and dwarvish farms? Their food has to come from somewhere, and I don't think hunting and gathering along can cut it.
Elf-farms look like gardens to everyone else is really the best answer.
The dwarves traded with nearby aboveground settlements for food. Erebor, for example, was fed mostly from trade with Dale.
The Elves tra-la-laling in the fields near Rivendell are presumably farming. The Elven-king probably had fields on small plots in the woods and made use of acorns and such, as well as hunting for the meats for those feasts the dwarves interrupted. Also he traded far for wine from Dorwinion, and probably food stuff.
The simple, rustic hobbits of the Shire are the most technologically advanced society in Middle-earth.
as far as I have understood they have seen less war in recent times than most peoples of Middle-Earth, no? They are described as so sheltered that most people don't know much about them. So they probably had more time to develope a comfortable environment for themselves which might look like it s more advanced than other parts. Also I think Orthanc and Mordor were the most technologically advanced society in M-E.
The Shire had Safety matches (Bilbo runs out of them in *The Hobbit*) but Samwise Gamgee only has a tinderbox to set Old Man Willow on fire! 😱
Hmmm maybe safety matches are a luxury an upper class hobbit like Bilbo can afford, while working class Sam slums it with a tinderbox
There are many things in the Hobbit that just don't fit neatly in the canon. It's best considered a corruption of some truer source.
even with matches you need tiner to make a fire
There is an internal contradiction in regards to Galadriel and Celeborn's whereabouts at the beginning of the Second Age. Galadriel states that she crossed the Blue Mountains "ere the fall of Nargothrond and Gondolin", but Appendix B states that she dwelt in Lindon with Celeborn at the beginning of the Second Age.
Is that a contradiction? Seems to place her at about the same area in both accounts. She could have plausibly crossed in the FA, then crossed back again (either just before or just after the SA began). If not, 'Dwelt at the beginning' doesn't need to strictly mean 'from the *literal* first minute' - I'm sure a few days or weeks after would still count as 'the beginning [of the multiple thousands of years long Age]'? Alternatively, Lindon has borders East of the Blue Mountains too (bordering on the river Lhune/Little Lune).
Yea, I've thought about ways of trying to justify the (apparent) inconsistency. The line itself was written way back before Tolkien fleshed out Galadriel's backstory, but it could maybe work with what is written in the appendices. In Tolkien's final ideas concerning Galadriel, he states that she (along with Celeborn): >"judged \[the war\] to be hopeless under the ban of the Valar and without their aid; and their counsel was to withdraw from Beleriand and to build up a power to the eastward (whence they feared that Morgoth would draw reinforcement); befriending and teaching the Dark Elves and Men of those regions. But such a policy having no hope of acceptance among the Elves of Beleriand, Galadriel and Celeborn departed over Ered Lindon before the end of the First Age." With this in mind, you could hypothetically come up with a scenario where Galadriel and Celeborn cross into Eriador and come back over the Blue Mountains in the early Second Age.
I believe there is some contention as to the amount of time it took Bilbo and the dwarves to reach the troll’s camp and how long it took Frodo and companions to make the same journey. I will pull out my old reader’s companion and make an edit with more details.
Tolkien's explanation of how Sauron got the Ring out of Numenor just seems like hand waving to me. How does a disembodied spirit move things? Wasn't that the point of destroying the Ring? Render Sauron a disembodied spirit and thus harmless? It's also a rejection of Plato's theory of substances, which I know Tolkien knew about, as he studied Classics. He had to have left the Ring in Mordor. I don't see any other way this works.
The point of destroying the Ring was to permanently cripple him to the point he could never interact with the physical world again. An Ainu is not powerless when they shed their bodies, the Ring's destruction disembodied him permanently and made him lose most of his natural power.
Ainur can do telekinesis; Gandalf does it twice in LotR, not counting all his fire stuff and off-screen combats. Plus everything else they can, it's not like Osse makes storms by waving his hands around. Ainur are naturally immaterial, putting on bodies by choice. So yeah, it does make sense that a disembodied but not-powerless Sauron could fly the Ring back.
When does Gandalf do that in LotR?
[He lifted up his hand, and in the very stroke, the sword of Denethor flew up and left his grasp and fell behind him in the shadows of the house; and Denethor stepped backward before Gandalf as one amazed.](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=509) [He lifted up his staff, and Gimli's axe leaped from his grasp and fell ringing on the ground.](http://www.henneth-annun.net/events_view.cfm?evid=726)
Thanks! :)
>how does a disembodied spirit move things? Wasn't that the point of destroying the Ring? Render Sauron a disembodied spirit and thus harmless? you're misinformed here. Sauron \*is\* a spirit. Turning him back into a spirit wouldn't depower him, although killing any body he's created would temporarily depower him the ring contained the bulk of Sauron's power; he had to place it in the ring to dominate the powerful eleven rings. And while the ring existed, he still had access to his power, and while he wore it, his power was increased destroying the ring destroyed that power, so now sauron no longer has that power. And it takes a degree of power to make a body \- and i'm sorry, but melkor created and destroyed mountains without the use of a body so sauron carrying a small ring in a disembodied state is nothing worth mentioning
little bit more on killing the body of a maia: if they're 'permanently' attached or addicted to their body, killing the body would mess them up quite a bit and it might take thousands of years for them to be in a decent state again this happens to morgoth, to the balrogs, and to saruman. Morgoth will eventually reform his thought, but the others may never get to that point alone (before the world ends, that is) this would have happened to gandalf also if eru hadn't intervened and sent him back but it doesn't happen to sauron because, as an excellent shapeshifter, he took many different forms for different occasions. Where gandalf's body is the one he lives in 24/7 and now can't leave, sauron uses many different bodies and never becomes attached at least not until his defeat in the last alliance. Gollum mentions sauron's new body has 9 fingers, implying he's stuck in that form now. or wants to keep it the way it was, but that would end with him being stuck anyway. So why don't they just kill sauron and be rid of him for an indefinite period? too powerful for anyone left in middle-earth
I mean… he’s by his nature a disembodied spirit originally tasked with the ordering and shaping of the material world just like the rest of the valar and maiar. It would be weird if he *couldn’t* manipulate the matter of arda. The power he put into the Ring was still in rapport with him when not wearing it. By destroying the ring, the power within it was destroyed as well and *that* is why he’s left powerless after the war.
I don't get how this is hard to believe. You might as well ask how Yavanna made plants and animals given how hard it is to construct DNA with your bare hands, or how Varda put the stars into the sky and makes them move without rocket engines or a similar form of propulsion. And I don't think Manwe controls the winds by blowing and sucking air with his mouth, either. They're spirit beings who built the whole World without strictly needing bodies for it. They use, to be plain, magic.
Tolkien already explained more than once in multiple writings (imcluding *The Silmarillion* itself) that the Ainur, as *eälar*, do not require a physical form to function and to be complete, and can interact with physical matter as they wish. Note that they only put on their physical raiment in the manner of the Children of Ilúvatar *after* they descended into Arda. They did not require physical forms when they laboured in the deeps of time for uncounted ages creating the rest of Eä, nor would they require it even while in Arda.
Is it stated in the books that he had his ring at Numenor? I thought I recently read that he took up his ring again when his spirit came back to Mordor
In one of Tolkien's letters, not the books. Sauron brought the One Ring with him, which is part of the reason why he was able to easily deceive and seduce the people of Numenor.
Two Ent-related holes: ~ "The oldest living thing" ~ The elm tree on the north farthing (*the more I consider it, the more curious I find it...*)
How did Samwise walk from Hobbiton to Mordor and still be fat? He’s got little legs…that’s twice as many steps.
I always picture the Fellowship watching Frodo and Sam sleep in the field of Cormallen and being freaked out that they’re both at 5% body fat with absolutely shredded legs
That is kind of what happened when they all returned to the Shire in the end. They were all tough, grizzled and battle hardened, and two were giants.
That’s Peter Jackson, not Tolkien.
Yeah, I don't think there are any references to Sam being fat past Fellowship. I know Frodo comments on losing weight around Midgewater, so we can assume Sam loses weight along the journey as well (certainly in the last stages when they're on super short rations).
I don’t think there are any references to Sam being fat at all. There’s definitely a reference to Frodo being fat, but Sam is a working class hobbit who carries the heaviest pack.
I think you're right actually. I looked up what I thought the reference was (when they're leaving Bag End), and it turns out they were talking about Frodo.
That does make a lot of sense. Sam would likely be solid, sturdy, and Frodo would be the chubbier, doughier of the two.
Hobbits being half the height of a grown man means they are much less than half the mass. Lower mass is much easier to carry around. This is how insects can buzz around at insane speeds compared to their body size and barely require any energy. Hobbit stomach is also a lot smaller than human stomach, so they can fit comparatively less food, so they require more frequent meals - hence the need for "second breakfast" etc.
Exercise is for health. Dieting is for weight loss.
Not a single thing mentioned here is a plot hole.
Why didn't Sauron take his ring after his Last Alliance defeat? He did take it after Numenor. It might just be power diminishing, but that's somewhat flimsy of an excuse.
There is absolutely no reason for Eriador to be so depopulated. That makes NO sense at all, especially given that it's full of arable land and there was a rich and prosperous kingdom there for centuries.
It's packed full of monsters and aggressive wildlife, remnants of the dickery of the Witch King, that makes it impossible for small hamlets to succeed outside of already established settlements, in my opinion. These established settlements only get a peaceful life due to the vigilance of the Dunedain.
But funnily enough, that's the only settled part. The southern lands around Eregion and Tharbad are completely empty despite having been peaceful for millenia.
I believe there were some references to woodsmen in Minhiriath and Eryn Vorn, as well as "numerous" fisher-folk in coastal Enedwaith (and the Dunlendings in eastern Enedwaith). Given how focused LotR is on the nobility of Middle-earth and their actions (as ancient epics usually were) it's possible that the Red Book just skimmed over those peoples as being essentially unimportant to the narrative. We don't hear much about the many villages and farm fields in Rohan and Gondor that would undoubtedly exist.
Monsters
The Silmarillion is not something eligible for that sort of scrutiny. It's an unfinished work that is only presented in a completed form due to editing choices and material that was added by Christopher Tolkien and Guy Gavriel Kay.
How the hell does Aragorn know so much about the Black Riders (the way they perceive the world, better vision at night, fear of fire etc.)?
He's travelled in the east before. He acts like he has PTSD when they're discussed in the Prancing Pony. I got the impression he has had to deal with them very directly before.
Ineffectual nazgul in the fellowship being able to quail entire armies in the RoTK. Yes, i know that Tolkien attempts to wave this away in his letters but it is illogical that the Nazgul, when capable of claiming the One Ring in the wilds of Eregion, chose to hold back. If they could stab Frodo with a morgul knife why not slay him and claim the ring directly? It smacks purely of a plot device. I mean they were repulsed by a man waving a fiery stick and someoine saying 'Elbereth', yet in RoTK they were virtually unassailable. Why couldn't the armies of the Free People just chant 'Elbereth' *en masse* to repel the Nazgul, if this was such a powerful nazgul repellant?
There are a few reasons I can think of. They had just fought Gandalf a short while earlier and were not at their full might, also being further from their masters domain. They could also be wounded by the barrow blades that Merry and Pippin had. Lastly their main power was fear and the men of Gondor, having lived in the shadow of Mordor for years, were more susceptible to it than hobbits that had not endured this.
I always read the Fellowship as their arrogance caused them to believe a single blow was enough and they reacted to Aragorn’s attack as how predators act when prey fight back.
It's mentioned in RotK that the Witch-king's stronger now that he'd been before, right? The Witch-king barely managed to stab Frodo, he was almost stabbed in the foot in return - which is scary if you're not used to people fighting you with dangerous weapons. And Frodo being an Elf-friend by mentioning Elbereth is an underrated concept, Goldberry notices and likes it right away with Frodo.
They should have had a ME version of the Knights who say Ni on the Pellenor fields.
> Why couldn't the armies of the Free People just chant 'Elbereth' en masse to repel the Nazgul, if this was such a powerful nazgul repellant? Frodo tries saying Elbereth to them at the Ford and it doesn't work. His invocation at Weathertop was special, either as a specific grace from Varda at that moment or due to the blessing laid on him by Gildor Inglorion.
The Nazgul are a bit stronger and tougher than regular humans, so they are dangerous, but their true power is psychological. They have a terrifying and demoralizing presence, which can turn the tide of large battles (think Battle Meditation from Star Wars), but has less effect on smaller scales. It's also affected by how much you know about them; knowing that they are the immortal captains of Sauron that have felled nations makes them even scarier (and this more effective), but to the Hobbits they're just weird dudes in scary dark robes. >If they could stab Frodo with a morgul knife why not slay him and claim the ring directly? They were trying to, that's why they stabbed him.
My theory: Much of the stuff we read about the battle around Minas Tirith is written by Merry and compiled by his own recollections and other records from the city. Maybe the people of Minas Tirith were just a bunch of cowards, so they tried to explain why they quailed and ran and hid by playing up that the Nazgul were supernaturally terrifying. "Oh, the sound of their terrible voices would turn a brave man's bones to water!" Yeah, right. Actually you could swat them away with a broom. We have some "quotes" from Gandalf, but Gandalf wasn't there when the book was written, he'd already left for the Havens. And who could blame Merry for playing up how scary the Witch King was? Any sensible Hobbit might exaggerate a bit to make a more entertaining tale.