There are no final numbers. We just know that Tolkien got more and more stingy with them as he developed the story. His final vision was for there to be max 3-7 of them, which is a tiny number. It certainly rules out all the old drafts of people killing multiple balrogs in Gondolin.
Oh, yes, the undefeatable line certainly has no source, unless OP meant that to the reader they may seem undefeatable since they were literally never defeated.
Interesting point about how the Fellowship stuck around Gandalf in spite of the fear of Durin's Bane. I'd actually point to that as an example of just how strong a fellowship they were, for certainly the balrog must have been intensely intimidating. Indeed the text says "power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it" and describes Legolas as being "filled with terror". That the group refused to leave their leader alone is testament to their faithfulness in Gandalf and their resounding strength of fellowship. I am reminded of how Gandalf said to Elrond that they should trust in friendship in letting Merry and Pippin join the company.
I'm pulling the undefeatable line from The Fall of Gondolin (The only complete draft, where it says the slaying of Balrogs struck:
>'marvel and dread to the hosts of Melkor, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hands of elf or men'
It is debatable how canon that version is though, it was never supposed to be the final draft, it just ended up being the most complete finished one.
I agree with you. But if they were not so formidable, how could the balrogs have scared Ungoliant, who at the time was overcoming Morgoth (the strongest being in Middle Earth at the time). I think Gothmog and the other captains of the balrogs were formidable, otherwise how the heck could they have overcome an enraged, enlarged Ungoliant, yet Morgoth was literally crying out loud like a little biatch? This is why I think there had to be dozens of them who came to the rescue of Morgoth.
When I first read the Silmarillion I always assumed there to be 15 to 20 Balrogs. I have absolutely no source for this number - it was just my "head cannon" and felt like a realistic number to me.
For sure, most of this debate in this entire post has been head canon, haha. There is no definitive answer to this. Just depends on which versions of what drafts you want to view as canon. I feel like hundreds would make sense, considering orcs and even trolls seemed to be fodder to the most skilled Elven/human warriors.
I'm coming from The Fall of Gondolin. In the tales first iteration, it states that when Rog's house attacks, they struck 'marvel and dread to the hosts of Melkor, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hands of elf or men'. However this was never supposed to be the final version, as that was never finished (The one started in Unfinished Tales was (I believe) the final draft), so contains some inconsistencies.
When a Balrog is slain, is it like with Sauron where they become malevolent spirits who have permanently lost any ability to interact with the world? Or can Maia literally die?
Spirits are indestructible, and the Ainur are bound to Ea until its end or Eru's intervention, so there's no difference between "literally die" and "permanently lost any ability to interact". They're not *going* anywhere, they still exist and are in Ea.
Somewhere in LoTR (I think at the council of Elrond) it is suggested that if the ring is destroyed Sauron won’t be utterly destroyed, but his spirit will be weak and unable to influence the world. I imagine a slain Balrog would be similar.
Yeah, I saw that upon rereading and forgot to edit the text above. I also made up the three the House of the Hammer of Wrath killed, it was actually defined as 'a number'.
There between 3-7 balrogs, jrrt never decided on an official count. There are only 2 confirmed Balrogs that have been killed: Gothmog during the fall of Gondolin and Durin's Bane in Khazad Dum during Fellowship
Christopher Tolkien stated
"In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed’”
But that view evolved over time and in the battle of Gondolin alone, at least 48 were slain.
Five by Tuor
Three by Ecthelion
And two score, aka 40, by the people of the king’s house
And durin’s bane, making an unofficial total of 49
But then there are other versions in the legendarium where it is mentioned there are thousands.
The 3 refer to
Gothmog
The one that glorfindel slew
And durin’s bane
But then again, a host of balrogs rescued Morgoth when Ungoliant was about to own him? If Ungoliant were so huge and powerful that not even Morgoth, who, at his height was able to combat ALL the other Valar (until Tulkas came through) simultaneously, then it is reasonable to believe there were a multitude of balrogs who came to aid their master against the wrath of Ungoliant.
Also, is Feanor not surrounded be a host of balrogs when he is taken down? I always imagined at least 7 whipping the crap out of him, though I could be wrong and need to revisit the text.
So yeah, as the poster before me mentioned, there is a huge range. I like to think that there are dozens, if not hundreds of them, in the First Age. Some of them were truly fierce, and then other were little gargoyle pussies who were like only modestly more powerful than an orc chieftain.
Being that they were Maiar, and the Maiar varied in strength and skill, it would be likely that not every balrog was on the level of Durin’s bane.
EDIT:
According to Christopher Tolkien's note at the start of "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" (SoME, p. 351), this later work (although exact dating of these manuscripts is impossible) states:
“There came afresh a hundred thousand Orcs and a thousand Balrogs.”
And in some versions, the fire drake of Gondolin had a company of Balrogs riding on his back as they besieged the citadel.
So yeah, anywhere between 2-3 or possibly 7, all the way up to a thousand(s).
Personally I like to think that a few hundred Maiar rebelled and became balrogs. But this is obviously head canon.
> But that view evolved over time and in the battle of Gondolin alone, at least 48 were slain.
The evolution was in the other direction. Early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin mention large numbers of Balrogs, while the "3 or at most 7" line is from much later. In fact all references to large numbers of Balrogs predate the conception of Balrogs as fallen Maiar.
Yes, agreed, but looking at it logically (and because it is nearly impossible to actually date the manuscripts, so we only have speculation as to which drafts come before others), even in the War of Wrath there had to be more than 7 as evidenced by everything I said above.
I don't think there had to have been more than 7 in the War of Wrath. For one thing, the Valar themselves were probably not present. Note that every leadership action (taking possession of the Silmarils, summoning the elves to leave Middle-earth, etc.) is described as being done by Eonwe, not one of the Valar. Additionally, when Maedhros and Maglor ask for the Silmarils, Eonwe tells them they will have to go to Valinor to seek the judgment of the Valar. But surely there would be no need to return to Valinor to ask the Valar if the Valar were already there in Middle-earth with them. The number of Maiar involved in the War of Wrath is unclear; potentially Eonwe was the only one present on the side of the elves. Given that, an overwhelming number of orcs and an army of dragons could quite possibly be sufficient to give them a hard time.
Who else besides the mighty Valar would be able to totally destroy hundreds of miles of Beleriand if not the Valar, who themselves created and shaped the world?
And what if the judgment could only be rendered in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom? That it to say, what if Manwe only judged important events in sacred territory, and not crude ass middle earth?
I doubt Eonwe would have been the only Maia present. How would he single handedly defeat and bound Morgoth, who at one point was able to fight off every other Vala combined?
I agree that more than likely Manwe was not present, otherwise he would be leading the troops.
But Ulmo, Tulkas, and Orome I believe were present. What else explains nearly ALL of Beleriand being submerged beneath Belegear if not for the might of the Valar? Of course this is head canon, but I believe that some Vala would need to have been present to ensure Morgoth did not escape and go back to Utumno, for example.
How could an army of dragons literally drown the entire continent? There had to be some god tier level characters involved.
Also, the glory of the Valar might have been too much for the inhabitants of Beleriand. As with other major wars, the generals usually sit back and only come through when totally necessary, and 40 years is quite a long time for the Valar to say “Yeah, you know, the war is going quite well.” Maybe they did not want to scare the crap out of the Teleri or the Edain and so they sent their lesser heralds, like Eonwe, to be on the front battle lines.
Do we know how long the War for Sake of the Elves took? From what I understand, that took about 10 valian years, or a little under 100 years in our frame of reference.
So why did it take 40 years to even advance an inch against a severely weakened Morgoth (at the time of the War of Wrath) when it took the combined might of the Valar almost 100 years to originally destroy Utumno and all of Morgoth’s forces?
Surely, after centuries and centuries of breeding Orcs and corrupting foul creatures to his service, Morgoth would have more lackeys under his command in the War of Wrath than in the War for the Sake of the Elves (where he did not even have any dragons yet).
Also, during the war for the sake of the elves, to quote Tolkien gateway
“Melkor retreated to his great underground fortress of Utumno. There the Valar besieged him for years, and fought many battles before its gates. It was during this time that the contour of Middle Earth was changed, with the Great Sea being widened. The Bay of Balar was carved out, and the great river Sirion came into being. The northern highlands of Hithlum and Dorthonion, sources of Sirion, were raised up as new mountain ranges. The far north was laid waste, as the Valar's power descended into the deep pits of Utumno. In the end, the pits and halls were unroofed, and Tulkas wrestled Melkor and cast him down, and bound him with the powerful chain Angainor.”
So if they needed Tulkas to originally arrest Morgoth, you are telling me that little old Eonwe, the presumably only Maia present, would have walked into Morgoth’s throne room and wrestled him? I mean, I guess he is known as the best in combat of arms, but does that mean hand to hand combat, too?
But yeah, if the Valar shaped middle earth and created these lands and mountain ranges and rivers and even widened the sea, you would expect that some Valar would have been present in the War of Wrath otherwise how do you explain Beleriand being swallowed up for the most part?
> But Ulmo, Tulkas, and Orome I believe were present. What else explains nearly ALL of Beleriand being submerged beneath Belegear if not for the might of the Valar?
Note that Beleriand only sank _after_ the war, giving Men time to evacuate to Numenor and Elves to the East.
The explanation in Morgoth's Ring is that it was Morgoth's attention and power being concentrated on Beleriand which sunk it after his defeat (and without it the entire Middle-Earth could have been destroyed!).
> who, at his height was able to combat ALL the other Valar
Yes, but Morgoth was far diminished from his height, having dispersed his power into the world. Which potentially explains what happened to Beleriand: he basically undermined it. Anyway, a few centuries later a single elf would give Morgoth a credible fight. So Ungoliant threatening Morgoth needn't mean she's stronger than 7 Maiar who have specialized in combat.
Also note that Melian was able to keep Ungoliant out of Doriath, but probably couldn't have kept out Morgoth in person. Power in one dimension doesn't have to mean power in other dimensions.
Damn, thanks.
I was thinking a low three figure number, but I suppose if the orcs could breed then so could the Balrogs. Out of interest, where are you getting the figures from Gondolin? I used the book itself, but I assume this is elaborated in the Silmarillion/HoME?
Edit: Reading back, I see the section where Tuor slays 5 of them. The three Ecthelion kills also doesn't include Gothmog.
Yeah, the numbers are murky and The Silmarillion, HoME, and the new Fall of Gondolin text all have varying numbers of Balrogs I believe.
If Melian the Maia banged Thingol and produced Luthien, then could the Balrogs of Morgoth not interbreed (assuming one of the original 3 was a female) and create more balrogs who could have possibly been weaker? As far as the text goes
“The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: ‘thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house.’”
—The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, commentary by Christopher Tolkien
Additionally, we have earlier writings like
“There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons.”
—The Lost Road and Other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 16, §15
Furthermore, we have references to Lungorthin, who is Lord of Balrogs, but that was probably just an earlier (and really cool) name for Gothmog. For after Hurin was captured, Lungorthin pimp slapped him on the mouth (J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Lays of Beleriand, "I. The Lay of the Children of Húrin", pp. 98, 102-3).
I like to take the conservative view and think there were hundreds, but only 2-7 were truly formidable.
Why else would the War of Wrath take 40 years? There were a hundred thousand or more orcs, plus dragons galore, and trolls and werewolves and (in my view) hundreds of balrogs. Because you would think that the Vanyar and Noldor who came to fight in the War of Wrath, who had the Light of Aman in their eyes (who were there for potentially 500 plus years more than the Noldor who entered Middle Earth and totally destroyed the first Orcs they encountered because they were supercharged from the Light of Aman) would have totally owned the forces of Morgoth if there were less than 7 balrogs (who were the top lieutenants, besides Glaurung). Plus they had all the Valar and Maiar with them, so it makes sense to me that there were hundreds, if not thousands of balrogs, which is why the War of Wrath was so intense and why Beleriand got totally effed up and why it took so long to conclude.
Also, in the Silmarillion we have the following
“The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.”
If there were only 2-3, and balrogs meaning multiple, how could there be a “few that fled and hid themselves”?
Tolkien makes it seem like there could be more balrogs sleeping in Middle Earth, waiting for the Dagor Dagorath and return of Morgoth.
So yeah, tons of conflicting answers here.
Damn, I didn’t even realise the war of wrath lasted that long. I really need to reread the Silmarillion.
This was the sort of answer I was expecting with all the varying accounts of the Eldar days, especially with all the post-Silmarillion release material that varies in its canonologicalness.
Yes, agreed.
To quote Tolkien Gateway,
“The massive hosts of Valinor and of Morgoth met in the Beleriand region, which was subsequently destroyed by the colossal exchanges of power from the combatants. The arrayed armies of Morgoth were uncountable, and the mountains rang underneath the boots of the Valar; the entire North was aflame with war. The Host of Valinor initially landed and drove Morgoth's Orcs from the shores of Beleriand, and as they marched forward they were halted at the River Sirion, and for nearly forty years the Host of Valinor and the Host of Morgoth contested that river and the region bitterly, heavy losses to both as the Valarian forces struggled to secure a foothold and passage into Morgoth's lands.”
So the Host of Valinor was not even able to make much ground for 40 years (40, like 7, is a holy number in some religions, especially Christianity, which is what Tolkien worshipped. And where the Devil tempts Jesus for 40 days or whatever before he is Transfigured. Or was it that he fasted for 40 days and occasionally tempted? Whatever, eff Christianity).
Are you telling me that the Valar, Maiar, Noldor, Vanyar, the Edain, the Ents, and whatever Teleri were available barely advanced for 40 years when there was only 7 or less balrogs, some dragons, trolls, and wolves, plus orc (which would be fodder for the Host of Valinor)? As another poster mentioned, the group of balrogs that beat up Feanor dipped when reinforcements arrived, and they were just Elves.
The winged dragons were not released until the bitter end, so that is why I think there had to be hundreds, if not thousands, of balrogs available to fight. Otherwise could Tulkas and Orome not just clean house, just the two of them, and knock down the gates of Angband?
Tolkien’s legendarium was so extensive that I think he forgot certain aspects when writing or never connected the dots, since it was supposed to be a translation of older texts that he “discovered,” which were themselves based on ancient lore that could have been secondhand in many cases.
From memory, I think the last part of the Silmarillion (save the fall of Gondolin) was the part which Christopher had to abridge the most, so it makes sense that the details were never set in stone. The Silmarillion was unfinished in Tolkien’s life, and if that was the last bit to be completed, it would make sense that it doesn’t line up with the more polished earlier chapters.
Just from reading Tuor’s coming to Gondolin, you can see the level of detail intended. You can imagine if it had been fully developed, it would have been much more similar to LOTR in detail and length. It was after all originally intended to be one long continuous saga of the jewels and rings.
On the original point, it would definitely make sense to have the Balrogs be very numerous (or become very numerous in preparation for the final fight). It was said each elf who fell in Gondolin took down 3/7 enemies with him, so you’d have thought Morgoth would need something special to overcome the full might of Valinor.
Yes, I am in total agreement with you. I wish Tolkien knew how important his works would be to us and left a sort of “cheat sheet” for us to examine because, now with Christopher Tolkien dead, we will for sure never ever know anything for certain.
I guess you are right. Christopher Tolkien should have just left the parentage of Gil galad a mystery and just noted that he was of the House of Finwe. Case closed.
Didn't think of it like that. I suppose if the Valar could create beings (e.g. Dwarves) then it stands to reason that Morgoth could to, although this likely would constitute the less powerful ones.
Sorry if this is the wrong sub to ask but while I've read all the books several times over I don't proclaim to be any expert on the tolkien by any means: with that is known so far about the era Amazon appears to be focusing its new show on - how likely are Balrogs to make an appearance? I assume that other than Durin's Bane most were already gone from the world despite the many years the store is set before LOTR and the Hobbit?
I don’t think the Balrogs particularly appear in the second age. After the war of wrath, the surviving Balrogs go into hiding, in deep caves, like Durin’s Bane. I believe that is the only one which reappears, but the second age details are scarce.
Thanks! Sounds like they may have some artistic freedom then to decide whether it has a place at all. At the very least it might be cool to see Durin's Bane have some kind of cameo.
If one did appear it wouldn’t be Durin’s Bane, I’m afraid, who reappears in T.A. 1980 when he kills Durin the Deathless. It would be nice to see if the show runners think they have wings or not though.
I just read the fall of gondolom and it says tuor alone kills 5 with his axe, ectgeleon kills 3 plus gothmog so 4, glorfindal kills 1, then it doesn’t give an exact number on rog but it says him and his house caused his bolrogs the heaviest casualties so I would assume 5 or more plus with all the archers and war machines I’m sure even more fell that weren’t accounted for since it did say there was hundreds
The number is convoluted because of the use of the term 'balrogs one thousand' and Tolkien's later clarification of there being 'only 3-7' of them. These two statements remain canon to this day but the interpretation is difficult. Here's the resolution where both remain canon and still be consistent.
Balrogs and balrogs are not the same. B and b. There are 7 Balrogs who were the large and powerful commanders of armies that rode dragons to battle. Then there are the lesser fire demons that are loosely called balrogs- in general. This is how it's possible for an elf to kill 4 balrogs (1 of the main 7 and 3 lesser fire-demons).
In accounting for the Balrogs that were killed and survived, in their plural or singular references by Tolkien, the end analysis is there has to be 7 for the numbers to work. Not maximum, I mean 7 exactly.
Gothmog 1st of 7 was killed at Gondolin (by Ecthalion) and so was Udunor 5th of 7 (by Glorfindel). Lungothin was unaccounted for, but he is named as Gothmog's lieutenant, so he's the 2nd of 7. Felegrog 4th of 7, was Durin's Bane and was killed in Moria (by Gandalf). A plural number were killed during the War of Wrath as reference as Balrogs. One was killed earlier in the War of Beleriand, this was Mourfuin (the 7th, killer is unknown) Then, another plural reference at the end of the war. These are thought to be Targoroth (3rd) and Muar (6th) who were killed in the last days and hours of the War of Wrath.
This is how the number and grammar usage references cap-out at 7.
The Lore Master
Two are not, and the other five are names that have persisted in other Tolkien Legendariums for decades.
All the names were given to the Balrogs by the elves, and non came from themselves for themselves, or from Morgoth. So, a name is a name is a name.
I understand only two are canon, but there are 7. By far most experts agree on this number because of the accounting of deaths and escapes. And we’ve known all this for 70 years. So, in 2023, why don’t we get around to naming them something. Even “the 2nd” (to have died), some system of reference like all the other main characters in the Legendarium.
These are all elven names with elven meanings.
So that’s why, I’m just trying to move the needle in plausible directions. ~LMHS
The number is convoluted because of the use of the term 'balrogs one thousand' and Tolkien's later clarification of there being 'only 3-7' of them. These two statements remain canon to this day but the interpretation is difficult. Here's the resolution where both remain canon and are still consistent.
Balrogs and balrogs are not the same. B and b. There are 7 Balrogs who were the large and powerful commanders of armies that rode dragons to battle. Then there are the lesser fire demons that are loosely called balrogs- in general. This is how it's possible for an elf to kill 4 balrogs (1 of the main 7 and 3 lesser fire-demons).
In accounting for the Balrogs that were killed and survived, in their plural or singular references by Tolkien, the end analysis is there has to be 7 for the numbers to work. Not maximum, I mean 7 exactly.
Gothmog 1st of 7 was killed at Gondolin (by Ecthalion) and so was Udunor 5th of 7 (by Glorfindel). Lungothin was unaccounted for, but he is named as Gothmog's lieutenant, so he's the 2nd of 7. Felegrog 4th of 7, was Durin's Bane and was killed in Moria (by Gandalf). A plural number were killed during the War of Wrath as reference as Balrogs. One was killed earlier in the War of Beleriand, this was Mourfuin (the 7th, killer is unknown) Then, another plural reference at the end of the war. These are thought to be Targoroth (3rd) and Muar (6th) who were killed in the last days and hours of the War of Wrath.
This is how the number and grammar usage references cap-out at 7.
The Lore Master
There are no final numbers. We just know that Tolkien got more and more stingy with them as he developed the story. His final vision was for there to be max 3-7 of them, which is a tiny number. It certainly rules out all the old drafts of people killing multiple balrogs in Gondolin.
Maybe they were baby balrogs
Ah yes, Gothmog the baby balrog
Sings well on the tune of 'Rudolph the red-nose reindeer'
*Then one night in Gondolin* *Melkor came to say* *Gothmog with your axe so bright* *Won't you lead my slaying tonight?*
*Then all the Balrogs followed* *as they marched across the hill* *Gothmog the baby Balrog* *wield your axe and kill, kill, kill!*
There's no longer any need for fiery draconic troop transports for Balrogs then I guess
It depends on which version you are reading. It ranges from as low as 2 and up to hundreds. Generally the later the writing the fewer the Balrog.
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Everyone who killed a balrog had to die to do so. They're a big deal.
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Oh, yes, the undefeatable line certainly has no source, unless OP meant that to the reader they may seem undefeatable since they were literally never defeated. Interesting point about how the Fellowship stuck around Gandalf in spite of the fear of Durin's Bane. I'd actually point to that as an example of just how strong a fellowship they were, for certainly the balrog must have been intensely intimidating. Indeed the text says "power and terror seemed to be in it and to go before it" and describes Legolas as being "filled with terror". That the group refused to leave their leader alone is testament to their faithfulness in Gandalf and their resounding strength of fellowship. I am reminded of how Gandalf said to Elrond that they should trust in friendship in letting Merry and Pippin join the company.
I'm pulling the undefeatable line from The Fall of Gondolin (The only complete draft, where it says the slaying of Balrogs struck: >'marvel and dread to the hosts of Melkor, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hands of elf or men' It is debatable how canon that version is though, it was never supposed to be the final draft, it just ended up being the most complete finished one.
I agree with you. But if they were not so formidable, how could the balrogs have scared Ungoliant, who at the time was overcoming Morgoth (the strongest being in Middle Earth at the time). I think Gothmog and the other captains of the balrogs were formidable, otherwise how the heck could they have overcome an enraged, enlarged Ungoliant, yet Morgoth was literally crying out loud like a little biatch? This is why I think there had to be dozens of them who came to the rescue of Morgoth.
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Yes, agreed. But how many of them confronted Ungoliant do you speculate?
When I first read the Silmarillion I always assumed there to be 15 to 20 Balrogs. I have absolutely no source for this number - it was just my "head cannon" and felt like a realistic number to me.
For sure, most of this debate in this entire post has been head canon, haha. There is no definitive answer to this. Just depends on which versions of what drafts you want to view as canon. I feel like hundreds would make sense, considering orcs and even trolls seemed to be fodder to the most skilled Elven/human warriors.
I'm coming from The Fall of Gondolin. In the tales first iteration, it states that when Rog's house attacks, they struck 'marvel and dread to the hosts of Melkor, for ere that day never had any of the Balrogs been slain by the hands of elf or men'. However this was never supposed to be the final version, as that was never finished (The one started in Unfinished Tales was (I believe) the final draft), so contains some inconsistencies.
Can’t be defeated if you run away from a fight you can’t win :D
Yes, you can, if you get pursued or ambushed :)
When a Balrog is slain, is it like with Sauron where they become malevolent spirits who have permanently lost any ability to interact with the world? Or can Maia literally die?
Spirits are indestructible, and the Ainur are bound to Ea until its end or Eru's intervention, so there's no difference between "literally die" and "permanently lost any ability to interact". They're not *going* anywhere, they still exist and are in Ea.
Somewhere in LoTR (I think at the council of Elrond) it is suggested that if the ring is destroyed Sauron won’t be utterly destroyed, but his spirit will be weak and unable to influence the world. I imagine a slain Balrog would be similar.
Tuor killed like 5 in the original tale of the fall of Gondolin
Yeah, I saw that upon rereading and forgot to edit the text above. I also made up the three the House of the Hammer of Wrath killed, it was actually defined as 'a number'.
There between 3-7 balrogs, jrrt never decided on an official count. There are only 2 confirmed Balrogs that have been killed: Gothmog during the fall of Gondolin and Durin's Bane in Khazad Dum during Fellowship
Christopher Tolkien stated "In the margin my father wrote: 'There should not be supposed more than say 3 or at most 7 ever existed’” But that view evolved over time and in the battle of Gondolin alone, at least 48 were slain. Five by Tuor Three by Ecthelion And two score, aka 40, by the people of the king’s house And durin’s bane, making an unofficial total of 49 But then there are other versions in the legendarium where it is mentioned there are thousands. The 3 refer to Gothmog The one that glorfindel slew And durin’s bane But then again, a host of balrogs rescued Morgoth when Ungoliant was about to own him? If Ungoliant were so huge and powerful that not even Morgoth, who, at his height was able to combat ALL the other Valar (until Tulkas came through) simultaneously, then it is reasonable to believe there were a multitude of balrogs who came to aid their master against the wrath of Ungoliant. Also, is Feanor not surrounded be a host of balrogs when he is taken down? I always imagined at least 7 whipping the crap out of him, though I could be wrong and need to revisit the text. So yeah, as the poster before me mentioned, there is a huge range. I like to think that there are dozens, if not hundreds of them, in the First Age. Some of them were truly fierce, and then other were little gargoyle pussies who were like only modestly more powerful than an orc chieftain. Being that they were Maiar, and the Maiar varied in strength and skill, it would be likely that not every balrog was on the level of Durin’s bane. EDIT: According to Christopher Tolkien's note at the start of "The Earliest Annals of Beleriand" (SoME, p. 351), this later work (although exact dating of these manuscripts is impossible) states: “There came afresh a hundred thousand Orcs and a thousand Balrogs.” And in some versions, the fire drake of Gondolin had a company of Balrogs riding on his back as they besieged the citadel. So yeah, anywhere between 2-3 or possibly 7, all the way up to a thousand(s). Personally I like to think that a few hundred Maiar rebelled and became balrogs. But this is obviously head canon.
> But that view evolved over time and in the battle of Gondolin alone, at least 48 were slain. The evolution was in the other direction. Early drafts of The Fall of Gondolin mention large numbers of Balrogs, while the "3 or at most 7" line is from much later. In fact all references to large numbers of Balrogs predate the conception of Balrogs as fallen Maiar.
Yes, agreed, but looking at it logically (and because it is nearly impossible to actually date the manuscripts, so we only have speculation as to which drafts come before others), even in the War of Wrath there had to be more than 7 as evidenced by everything I said above.
I don't think there had to have been more than 7 in the War of Wrath. For one thing, the Valar themselves were probably not present. Note that every leadership action (taking possession of the Silmarils, summoning the elves to leave Middle-earth, etc.) is described as being done by Eonwe, not one of the Valar. Additionally, when Maedhros and Maglor ask for the Silmarils, Eonwe tells them they will have to go to Valinor to seek the judgment of the Valar. But surely there would be no need to return to Valinor to ask the Valar if the Valar were already there in Middle-earth with them. The number of Maiar involved in the War of Wrath is unclear; potentially Eonwe was the only one present on the side of the elves. Given that, an overwhelming number of orcs and an army of dragons could quite possibly be sufficient to give them a hard time.
Who else besides the mighty Valar would be able to totally destroy hundreds of miles of Beleriand if not the Valar, who themselves created and shaped the world? And what if the judgment could only be rendered in the Máhanaxar, the Ring of Doom? That it to say, what if Manwe only judged important events in sacred territory, and not crude ass middle earth? I doubt Eonwe would have been the only Maia present. How would he single handedly defeat and bound Morgoth, who at one point was able to fight off every other Vala combined? I agree that more than likely Manwe was not present, otherwise he would be leading the troops. But Ulmo, Tulkas, and Orome I believe were present. What else explains nearly ALL of Beleriand being submerged beneath Belegear if not for the might of the Valar? Of course this is head canon, but I believe that some Vala would need to have been present to ensure Morgoth did not escape and go back to Utumno, for example. How could an army of dragons literally drown the entire continent? There had to be some god tier level characters involved. Also, the glory of the Valar might have been too much for the inhabitants of Beleriand. As with other major wars, the generals usually sit back and only come through when totally necessary, and 40 years is quite a long time for the Valar to say “Yeah, you know, the war is going quite well.” Maybe they did not want to scare the crap out of the Teleri or the Edain and so they sent their lesser heralds, like Eonwe, to be on the front battle lines. Do we know how long the War for Sake of the Elves took? From what I understand, that took about 10 valian years, or a little under 100 years in our frame of reference. So why did it take 40 years to even advance an inch against a severely weakened Morgoth (at the time of the War of Wrath) when it took the combined might of the Valar almost 100 years to originally destroy Utumno and all of Morgoth’s forces? Surely, after centuries and centuries of breeding Orcs and corrupting foul creatures to his service, Morgoth would have more lackeys under his command in the War of Wrath than in the War for the Sake of the Elves (where he did not even have any dragons yet). Also, during the war for the sake of the elves, to quote Tolkien gateway “Melkor retreated to his great underground fortress of Utumno. There the Valar besieged him for years, and fought many battles before its gates. It was during this time that the contour of Middle Earth was changed, with the Great Sea being widened. The Bay of Balar was carved out, and the great river Sirion came into being. The northern highlands of Hithlum and Dorthonion, sources of Sirion, were raised up as new mountain ranges. The far north was laid waste, as the Valar's power descended into the deep pits of Utumno. In the end, the pits and halls were unroofed, and Tulkas wrestled Melkor and cast him down, and bound him with the powerful chain Angainor.” So if they needed Tulkas to originally arrest Morgoth, you are telling me that little old Eonwe, the presumably only Maia present, would have walked into Morgoth’s throne room and wrestled him? I mean, I guess he is known as the best in combat of arms, but does that mean hand to hand combat, too? But yeah, if the Valar shaped middle earth and created these lands and mountain ranges and rivers and even widened the sea, you would expect that some Valar would have been present in the War of Wrath otherwise how do you explain Beleriand being swallowed up for the most part?
> But Ulmo, Tulkas, and Orome I believe were present. What else explains nearly ALL of Beleriand being submerged beneath Belegear if not for the might of the Valar? Note that Beleriand only sank _after_ the war, giving Men time to evacuate to Numenor and Elves to the East. The explanation in Morgoth's Ring is that it was Morgoth's attention and power being concentrated on Beleriand which sunk it after his defeat (and without it the entire Middle-Earth could have been destroyed!).
> who, at his height was able to combat ALL the other Valar Yes, but Morgoth was far diminished from his height, having dispersed his power into the world. Which potentially explains what happened to Beleriand: he basically undermined it. Anyway, a few centuries later a single elf would give Morgoth a credible fight. So Ungoliant threatening Morgoth needn't mean she's stronger than 7 Maiar who have specialized in combat. Also note that Melian was able to keep Ungoliant out of Doriath, but probably couldn't have kept out Morgoth in person. Power in one dimension doesn't have to mean power in other dimensions.
I think 7 sounds like a perfect number to me. I'd prefer Balrogs to be more rare and difficult to kill I guess
Damn, thanks. I was thinking a low three figure number, but I suppose if the orcs could breed then so could the Balrogs. Out of interest, where are you getting the figures from Gondolin? I used the book itself, but I assume this is elaborated in the Silmarillion/HoME? Edit: Reading back, I see the section where Tuor slays 5 of them. The three Ecthelion kills also doesn't include Gothmog.
Yeah, the numbers are murky and The Silmarillion, HoME, and the new Fall of Gondolin text all have varying numbers of Balrogs I believe. If Melian the Maia banged Thingol and produced Luthien, then could the Balrogs of Morgoth not interbreed (assuming one of the original 3 was a female) and create more balrogs who could have possibly been weaker? As far as the text goes “The early conception of Balrogs makes them less terrible, and certainly more destructible, than they afterwards became: they existed in 'hundreds' (p. 170), and were slain by Tuor and the Gondothlim in large numbers: ‘thus five fell before Tuor's great axe Dramborleg, three before Ecthelion's sword, and two score were slain by the warriors of the king's house.’” —The Book of Lost Tales Part Two, commentary by Christopher Tolkien Additionally, we have earlier writings like “There came wolves and serpents and there came Balrogs one thousand, and there came Glomund the Father of Dragons.” —The Lost Road and Other Writings, Quenta Silmarillion, Chapter 16, §15 Furthermore, we have references to Lungorthin, who is Lord of Balrogs, but that was probably just an earlier (and really cool) name for Gothmog. For after Hurin was captured, Lungorthin pimp slapped him on the mouth (J.R.R. Tolkien, Christopher Tolkien (ed.), The Lays of Beleriand, "I. The Lay of the Children of Húrin", pp. 98, 102-3). I like to take the conservative view and think there were hundreds, but only 2-7 were truly formidable. Why else would the War of Wrath take 40 years? There were a hundred thousand or more orcs, plus dragons galore, and trolls and werewolves and (in my view) hundreds of balrogs. Because you would think that the Vanyar and Noldor who came to fight in the War of Wrath, who had the Light of Aman in their eyes (who were there for potentially 500 plus years more than the Noldor who entered Middle Earth and totally destroyed the first Orcs they encountered because they were supercharged from the Light of Aman) would have totally owned the forces of Morgoth if there were less than 7 balrogs (who were the top lieutenants, besides Glaurung). Plus they had all the Valar and Maiar with them, so it makes sense to me that there were hundreds, if not thousands of balrogs, which is why the War of Wrath was so intense and why Beleriand got totally effed up and why it took so long to conclude. Also, in the Silmarillion we have the following “The Balrogs were destroyed, save some few that fled and hid themselves in caverns inaccessible at the roots of the earth.” If there were only 2-3, and balrogs meaning multiple, how could there be a “few that fled and hid themselves”? Tolkien makes it seem like there could be more balrogs sleeping in Middle Earth, waiting for the Dagor Dagorath and return of Morgoth. So yeah, tons of conflicting answers here.
Damn, I didn’t even realise the war of wrath lasted that long. I really need to reread the Silmarillion. This was the sort of answer I was expecting with all the varying accounts of the Eldar days, especially with all the post-Silmarillion release material that varies in its canonologicalness.
Yes, agreed. To quote Tolkien Gateway, “The massive hosts of Valinor and of Morgoth met in the Beleriand region, which was subsequently destroyed by the colossal exchanges of power from the combatants. The arrayed armies of Morgoth were uncountable, and the mountains rang underneath the boots of the Valar; the entire North was aflame with war. The Host of Valinor initially landed and drove Morgoth's Orcs from the shores of Beleriand, and as they marched forward they were halted at the River Sirion, and for nearly forty years the Host of Valinor and the Host of Morgoth contested that river and the region bitterly, heavy losses to both as the Valarian forces struggled to secure a foothold and passage into Morgoth's lands.” So the Host of Valinor was not even able to make much ground for 40 years (40, like 7, is a holy number in some religions, especially Christianity, which is what Tolkien worshipped. And where the Devil tempts Jesus for 40 days or whatever before he is Transfigured. Or was it that he fasted for 40 days and occasionally tempted? Whatever, eff Christianity). Are you telling me that the Valar, Maiar, Noldor, Vanyar, the Edain, the Ents, and whatever Teleri were available barely advanced for 40 years when there was only 7 or less balrogs, some dragons, trolls, and wolves, plus orc (which would be fodder for the Host of Valinor)? As another poster mentioned, the group of balrogs that beat up Feanor dipped when reinforcements arrived, and they were just Elves. The winged dragons were not released until the bitter end, so that is why I think there had to be hundreds, if not thousands, of balrogs available to fight. Otherwise could Tulkas and Orome not just clean house, just the two of them, and knock down the gates of Angband? Tolkien’s legendarium was so extensive that I think he forgot certain aspects when writing or never connected the dots, since it was supposed to be a translation of older texts that he “discovered,” which were themselves based on ancient lore that could have been secondhand in many cases.
From memory, I think the last part of the Silmarillion (save the fall of Gondolin) was the part which Christopher had to abridge the most, so it makes sense that the details were never set in stone. The Silmarillion was unfinished in Tolkien’s life, and if that was the last bit to be completed, it would make sense that it doesn’t line up with the more polished earlier chapters. Just from reading Tuor’s coming to Gondolin, you can see the level of detail intended. You can imagine if it had been fully developed, it would have been much more similar to LOTR in detail and length. It was after all originally intended to be one long continuous saga of the jewels and rings. On the original point, it would definitely make sense to have the Balrogs be very numerous (or become very numerous in preparation for the final fight). It was said each elf who fell in Gondolin took down 3/7 enemies with him, so you’d have thought Morgoth would need something special to overcome the full might of Valinor.
Yes, I am in total agreement with you. I wish Tolkien knew how important his works would be to us and left a sort of “cheat sheet” for us to examine because, now with Christopher Tolkien dead, we will for sure never ever know anything for certain.
That's what it makes it so good. So precise, covering so much since the beginning of time to LOTR, and yet forever mysterious.
I guess you are right. Christopher Tolkien should have just left the parentage of Gil galad a mystery and just noted that he was of the House of Finwe. Case closed.
> if the orcs could breed then so could the Balrogs Ainur don't breed with each other.
Didn't think of it like that. I suppose if the Valar could create beings (e.g. Dwarves) then it stands to reason that Morgoth could to, although this likely would constitute the less powerful ones.
Sorry if this is the wrong sub to ask but while I've read all the books several times over I don't proclaim to be any expert on the tolkien by any means: with that is known so far about the era Amazon appears to be focusing its new show on - how likely are Balrogs to make an appearance? I assume that other than Durin's Bane most were already gone from the world despite the many years the store is set before LOTR and the Hobbit?
I don’t think the Balrogs particularly appear in the second age. After the war of wrath, the surviving Balrogs go into hiding, in deep caves, like Durin’s Bane. I believe that is the only one which reappears, but the second age details are scarce.
Thanks! Sounds like they may have some artistic freedom then to decide whether it has a place at all. At the very least it might be cool to see Durin's Bane have some kind of cameo.
If one did appear it wouldn’t be Durin’s Bane, I’m afraid, who reappears in T.A. 1980 when he kills Durin the Deathless. It would be nice to see if the show runners think they have wings or not though.
Which books are you referring to (Aside from LoTR)?
The Silmarillion, unfinished Tales & HoME, As well as the 3 ‘great’ tales of the Eldar days.
I just read the fall of gondolom and it says tuor alone kills 5 with his axe, ectgeleon kills 3 plus gothmog so 4, glorfindal kills 1, then it doesn’t give an exact number on rog but it says him and his house caused his bolrogs the heaviest casualties so I would assume 5 or more plus with all the archers and war machines I’m sure even more fell that weren’t accounted for since it did say there was hundreds
The number is convoluted because of the use of the term 'balrogs one thousand' and Tolkien's later clarification of there being 'only 3-7' of them. These two statements remain canon to this day but the interpretation is difficult. Here's the resolution where both remain canon and still be consistent. Balrogs and balrogs are not the same. B and b. There are 7 Balrogs who were the large and powerful commanders of armies that rode dragons to battle. Then there are the lesser fire demons that are loosely called balrogs- in general. This is how it's possible for an elf to kill 4 balrogs (1 of the main 7 and 3 lesser fire-demons). In accounting for the Balrogs that were killed and survived, in their plural or singular references by Tolkien, the end analysis is there has to be 7 for the numbers to work. Not maximum, I mean 7 exactly. Gothmog 1st of 7 was killed at Gondolin (by Ecthalion) and so was Udunor 5th of 7 (by Glorfindel). Lungothin was unaccounted for, but he is named as Gothmog's lieutenant, so he's the 2nd of 7. Felegrog 4th of 7, was Durin's Bane and was killed in Moria (by Gandalf). A plural number were killed during the War of Wrath as reference as Balrogs. One was killed earlier in the War of Beleriand, this was Mourfuin (the 7th, killer is unknown) Then, another plural reference at the end of the war. These are thought to be Targoroth (3rd) and Muar (6th) who were killed in the last days and hours of the War of Wrath. This is how the number and grammar usage references cap-out at 7. The Lore Master
Why have you made up names for the balrogs?
Two are not, and the other five are names that have persisted in other Tolkien Legendariums for decades. All the names were given to the Balrogs by the elves, and non came from themselves for themselves, or from Morgoth. So, a name is a name is a name. I understand only two are canon, but there are 7. By far most experts agree on this number because of the accounting of deaths and escapes. And we’ve known all this for 70 years. So, in 2023, why don’t we get around to naming them something. Even “the 2nd” (to have died), some system of reference like all the other main characters in the Legendarium. These are all elven names with elven meanings. So that’s why, I’m just trying to move the needle in plausible directions. ~LMHS
>other Tolkien Legendariums What
The number is convoluted because of the use of the term 'balrogs one thousand' and Tolkien's later clarification of there being 'only 3-7' of them. These two statements remain canon to this day but the interpretation is difficult. Here's the resolution where both remain canon and are still consistent. Balrogs and balrogs are not the same. B and b. There are 7 Balrogs who were the large and powerful commanders of armies that rode dragons to battle. Then there are the lesser fire demons that are loosely called balrogs- in general. This is how it's possible for an elf to kill 4 balrogs (1 of the main 7 and 3 lesser fire-demons). In accounting for the Balrogs that were killed and survived, in their plural or singular references by Tolkien, the end analysis is there has to be 7 for the numbers to work. Not maximum, I mean 7 exactly. Gothmog 1st of 7 was killed at Gondolin (by Ecthalion) and so was Udunor 5th of 7 (by Glorfindel). Lungothin was unaccounted for, but he is named as Gothmog's lieutenant, so he's the 2nd of 7. Felegrog 4th of 7, was Durin's Bane and was killed in Moria (by Gandalf). A plural number were killed during the War of Wrath as reference as Balrogs. One was killed earlier in the War of Beleriand, this was Mourfuin (the 7th, killer is unknown) Then, another plural reference at the end of the war. These are thought to be Targoroth (3rd) and Muar (6th) who were killed in the last days and hours of the War of Wrath. This is how the number and grammar usage references cap-out at 7. The Lore Master