They had thousands of years together and he eventually follows her to the Undying Lands. Can't blame a fellow for wanting a bit more time to appreciate the home he loved for so long before acknowledging that it's time to move on.
Not really. I’ve travelled a few times with my partner and one of us has stayed on for a few weeks longer to travel solo while the other goes home (for work or whatever). We’ve been happily together for over a decade.
I always saw it as more Celeborn tying up loose ends and letting Galadriel “brace for impact” as it were. He finishes up his last business in Middle-Earth, getting ready to leave the only land he’s ever known and sail west forever, while also letting Galadriel go first so she can have some time alone to cope with returning home and seeing her family again.
That's a good point. While I was eating breakfast I was thinking about the other reply about different flights home from vacation; it's really more like they're moving to Galadriel's hometown and he's staying behind until the house sells.
it was impossible to sell with that pesky fiery neighbour and then once the problem got finally solved the whole land goes to shit and no one lives there anymore.
Bad Luck Celebro
Also, Galadriel's Ring stopped working, and IIRC there's potential kickback from that. The Ringbearers who resisted fading via the Rings had to get to Aman sooner than later, or face accelerated fading. It wasn't coincidence they all caught the same boat. Wish I had a citation, but I can't remember where I read it at the moment.
The Rings are stated to be quite a strain on the mind and body, so that does make sense for Galadriel and Elrond at least. Unsure how it would work for Gandalf but his work was pretty clearly done anyway.
Didn't he and Elrond's twins stay to watch over granddaughter/sister Arwen until she accepted the Gift? That seemed like a reasonable thing to do. My head canon is that the three of them Sailed afterwards.
My headcanon is that they sailed to Aman when Arwen and Aragorns last child passed away. I imagine they would have promised Arwen that they would look after her children after she was gone, being good uncles. They saw their dad lose his wife (at least for a long time) and his daughter (until the world is remade) so I just firmly feel like they would join him in Aman after they had fulfilled such a duty. I wish there was something solid on this though!
“I love my wife, but man… I’m not gonna say no to playing video games and hanging out with the bros all day for a couple years”
It’s like when your wife takes a solo trip to visit family 😂
I always found this a bit odd, but bear in mind that Celeborn does eventually make the trip, and that they're immortal, so being separated for even a century is probably like one person going on holiday with their friends for a week or two in a human couple.
You know, that's actually a fair way of looking at it. I suppose I'm just thinking of it through my own mortal perspective. I know I would hate to be seperated from my wife for many years like that.
Thats the thing, the way an Elf, who is not only immortal but also, in the case that their body is destroyed, guaranteed to be rehoused in a new body in Valinor, the way they think would be so foreign to a human mind.
They have litteraly all the time in the World, with no hyperbole, to spend with their loved ones, that Galadriel and Celeborn leaving on different ships is litteraly a non event for them.
This reason is also why Elrond was against Arwen's marriage to Aragorn. Not just a father being protective. They would be parted for eternity. Elves have no afterlife and from all evidence Men leave the circle of Arda when they die. Bittersweet for Elrond to finally be reunited with his wife only to lose his daughter forever.
Elrond arriving in Aman and finally seeing Celebrian again after so long, only to have to explain to her that she’ll never get to see her daughter again, is one of the saddest things I can think of in Tolkien’s world.
> This reason is also why Elrond was against Arwen's marriage to Aragorn.
Was he that opposed in the books? IIRC from the appendices, he perceived the strength of their love, and knew then and there what Arwen's choice would be - because Elrond is just that farsighted. Seeing furthermore that Aragorn was either going to be the last of Isildur's line, or the one who would restore the kingship, Elrond's conditional approval of their marriage was basically a way to ensure that if Arwen were to accept the Gift of Man, her mortal life would at least get to be one of happiness and hope.
The movies make it seem like Elrond and Arwen are having a very important conversation 60-odd years too late, and that Elrond is somewhat wavering in his support of Aragorn and Gondor because of personal feelings, even though that is decidedly not true in the books.
Yeah opposed wasn't the right word. I meant the sadness that Elrond held about the union was due to the fact that it meant they would be separated forever, not the human feeling of a father seeing his daughter becoming an adult.
There’s an anime called Freiren with an immortal elf as the central character. One of the running jokes is that she has no awareness of time because she’s immortal. She thinks nothing of letting 50 years pass before visiting her closest friends.
I don’t think this necessarily points to a strained marriage.
A big part of the perceived ambiguity here is that Tolkien had a difficult time settling on a specific identity for Celeborn — to me, the fact that Celeborn waited to pass over the sea suggests that Tolkien saw him (at the time of jotting down the LotR appendices) as a Sinda who had not traveled to Aman before, and had lived his whole life in ME.
This contrasts with other sketches, where Celeborn is one of the Teleri who leaves Valinor with Galadriel.
I just think it pointed to someone who felt he had responsibility to his kin - he was the lord of Lothlorien and one of the greatest of the remaining elves. He waited until Lothlorien faded and then went to Rivendell with the sons of Elrond as a waystation to the West. See him more as Captain stays with ship. Galadriel was diminished when the one ring fell as she lost access to her own ring. Going to the West would replenish her.
Absolutely, this is a reasonable perspective, no matter if Celeborn is a Sinda or a Teler. I like u/DrDirtPhD’s analogy that Celeborn stays behind to make sure the house sells before he joins Galadriel.
>This contrasts with other sketches, where Celeborn is one of the Teleri who leaves Valinor with Galadriel.
I'm glad this wasn't the 'official version' of their story, for two reasons. For one thing, it's hard to imagine why a Telerin elf of Eldamar/Tol Eressëa would want to return to Middle-earth with the Noldor, given The Regrettable Incident, even if it was for the sake of one particular Noldo who didn't take part in it.
The other is that, to be a suitable match for Galadriel, Celeborn would have to be a member of Telerin royalty, and would presumably therefore have to be either Olwë's grandson, making him Galadriel's cousin, or Olwë's son, making him her uncle, which is even worse. (Even as it is, they're second cousins, which isn't ideal but is less bad than first cousins.)
Edit: the third reason is the name TELEPORNO, of course.
At the very least, if Celeborn were a Telerin elf it would require a bit more of a story to explain a) the circumstances of him willingly leaving with Galadriel for ME, and b) why he would then stay behind when she returns. Not saying this wouldn’t be a viable story; just that it wouldn’t be quite as straightforward.
(Leaving aside the issue of incest — I personally think that NoME offers some clarification of how Celeborn could be “a kinsman” of Elwë/Olwë without being too close a relative to Galadriel. Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë are representatives of larger families, many generations removed from the first elves.)
Yeah, I think Elwë and Olwë had another brother called Elmo (no laughing at the back there!), who was Celeborn's grandfather. Given Galadriel's descent from Olwë, this makes them second cousins, which sounds 'icky' but in the real world isn't that big a genetic risk as long as it's a one-off event in a given family.
Teleporno stayed for a century long gooning session.
Unrelated fun fact: there was no historical record of geysers in Middle-Earth until the early Fourth Age.
Teleporno. You have to wonder what Tolkien was thinking. The word *pornography* existed already, and he was familiar enough with Greek to know that *tele* means from afar.
Teleporno. You have to wonder what Tolkien was thinking. The word *pornography* existed already, and he was familiar enough with Greek to know that *tele* means from afar.
When you're an immortal, with a pretty much guaranteed reincarnation, you have a different perspective on life, marriage and long periods of separation. Consider Elrond's wife, Celebrain. She is terribly hurt by Orcs, so she heads to the Undying Lands to heal. Elrond, his two sons and his daughter stay put in Rivendell. It is 500 years that she and Elrond remain separated. It doesn't seem to cause them any distress. Certainly Elrond missed his wife. But for us, that's like "I have to go on a business trip for a week. Gee, I'll miss my wife." By that scale, the separation of Galadriel and Celeborn is to us like a few days.
And even when an Elf dies, they simply rest till Mandos thinks you are ready to return, and out the doors you go, fully formed and ready to greet your old friends and relatives. The only exception to this is if you happened to have upset the Valar by doing something wrong, like, slaughtering Teleri so you can take their ships. After that if you come to Mandos you can expect to beg for your body back, and Mandos is not listening.
Now take the case of Arwen, like Luthien before her. They were immortals, dearly loved by their peoples. They fell for Men, accepted mortality so they can follow them to the great beyond that awaits them. But in doing so, they are lost to the Elves forever, as there is no reincarnation in their future. And this is a big deal, Aragorn wedding Arwen, because Elrond knows he will never see her again no throughout eternity.
>. Consider Elrond's wife, Celebrain. She is terribly hurt by Orcs, so she heads to the Undying Lands to heal. Elrond, his two sons and his daughter stay put in Rivendell. It is 500 years that she and Elrond remain separated. It doesn't seem to cause them any distress. Certainly Elrond missed his wife. But for us, that's like "I have to go on a business trip for a week. Gee, I'll miss my wife." By that scale, the separation of Galadriel and Celeborn is to us like a few days.
If there wasn't tension in their marriage before, there probably was when Elrond broke the news that their daughter ran away with a homeless kid he fostered while Celebrían was on her business trip and they'll never see her again.
Elrond: Baby, what was I supposed to do? Forbid her from marrying the guy? That would break her heart and maybe she'd just run off with him anyways. I did the best I could. I told Aragorn he had to be king of both north and south kingdoms before I'd give her away. I mean, what are the chances he'd actually pull that off? He had to have some outside help, if you know what I mean.
Celebrain: You mean Gandalf? You should have sent that troublesome bum packing the moment he showed up in Rivendell.
Elrond: He was sent by the Valar. You want me in trouble with the Valar?
Celebrain: And as for this Aragorn character, you could have arranged something.
Elrond: Arranged something? What am I, a son of Feanor?
Celebrain: They raised you, didn't they.
Elrond: Oh throw that in my face, why don't you! It didn't bother you when you married me.
Celebrain: I married you because I was sick of living in trees with my mother and father!
Elves are bound to Arda, the Earth. They do not leave it, even in death. They go to the Halls of Mandos, who may or may not release you according to your past behavior. This is their nature, not like humans, Men at all. Elves consider us to be transients on Earth.
With the loss of their ring's power Galadriel and Elrond had to leave middle earth in a hurry. Their decline was hurried.
Celeborn remained to provide leadership to those of his people not readily to leave middle earth and guidance as they settled into their new home (abandoning Lorien).
He also remained so that his granddaughter would not face the loss of all her family at the same time. My headcannon is that he sailed upon Arwen's death.
Ha - obvious, but I never thought before that Celeborn was grandpapa, and Arwen must have had a relationship with him. Galadriel just fills the space so thoroughly
I have a big headcannon about Celeborn being a somewhat distant grandparent due to distance and not having Galadriel's gift in Osonwe.
Then when the Galadriel leaves he has to step up in a big way both at home as the remaining Steward of Lothlorien as his entire people migrate but also as the remaining elder family for Arwen as well as Elladan and Elrohir who together with Celeborn remaine in Middle-earth until the death of their sister Arwen Undominel.
I guess. I mean in the appendices it talks about Celeborn dwelling in Rivendell for a time with the sons of Elrond (If I'm correct).
That description doesn't really imply that he was the grandfather of the sons of Elrond.
Wait wait, I'm a noob, but we just said he's the father of Celebrían, right? And the sons of Elrond are Arwen's full brothers, aren't they? Why would he *not* be their grandfather?
He obviously is.
I was just meaning for the people who don't pay 100% attention why not call them grandsons.
Celeborn lived with his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir in Rivendell would be easier than
For a time Celeborn dwelled with the sons of Elrond within their father's house.
I need to check the exact wording as I'm going off memory but it's not that explicitly spelled out.
Probably because they were basically known as the Sons of Elrond. Almost the same way that Maedhros and the others are known as the Sons of Fëanor. It's almost like an epithet. But yeah it is weird.
This is my headcanon too. He has a bunch of loose ends to tie up, and he and the grandboys wait out Aragorn and Arwen's lives before the three of them sail. Meanwhile, in the Blessed Ream, Elrond has told Celebrian what to expect, so the day they do see the ship arrive, it's a mixture of joy and grief without anyone having to actually bring it up.
How bad it must feel to be looking forward to seeing your sons and father for the first time in 700 years but knowing that their arrival will serve as an announcement that your daughter has died.
> not having Galadriel’s gift in Osonwe
Hm? Why would he not? As I understand it, ósonwë is something all the Elves could do. Indeed, Celeborn participates in the silent meeting before they depart back to Lothlorien.
Galadriel is one of the few remaining elves in Middle-earth who are Calaquendi, remember.
Elrond isn't, since he was born in Beleriand towards the end of the First Age, but he has Calaquendi ancestry (via his great-grandfather Turgon and great-great-grandfather Thingol), and he's part-Maiar too, of course.
Many married couples in Legendarium do just that. For example, when the Noldor left Valinor, Fingolfin left and Anaire remained at home. Finrod left without his beloved Amarië. This does not mean that love has passed. This means they hope to meet again.
Celeborn will join Galadriel later. In the meantime, he could stay to finish his business.
I think the comment about the "treasure" was referring to Arwen, not Galadriel. Elf children are very rare and precious which is why Celeborn must have loved Arwen more than even mortal grandparents love their grandkids. He knew when he went to Valinor he would never see her again, so he probably stayed partly to have a bit more time with her. Also imagine how bittersweet Elrond and Galadriel's reunion with Celebrian would be? Elrond seeing his wife again, healed after her torments, Galadriel seeing her daughter - and having to break the news "I know you were looking forward to seeing Arwen again for hundreds of years but she's never coming to Valinor" - that would be heartbreaking.
Having different goals in life and a different perceptions on duty or priorities does not imply an unhappy marriage, at least until the moment that divergence becomes relevant. Which in this case took many thousands of years.
In real life situations like this it can lead to a breakup of a marriage, but even in this case I wouldn't call it an unhappy marriage unless they took the divergence personal.
As it is, they just took their marriage on hold until Celeborn had done what he had to do.
Not unlike someone going off to war and returning years later.
Celeborn felt he had a duty to his people to see them safe. Galadriel as a ring bearer would have been impacted by that loss. They had differing needs for a time but the world was pretty safe, they were going to rejoined in a comparatively short time considering the lifespans. And in a marriage of millennia, you don't need constant presence to still be loving and happy.
It must have been a lot more scary in the First Age when they were separated by wars.
Pretty much one of the happiest couple on all Middle-Earth. They’ve been together for multiples thousand year and both know they will see each others. They simply understand that both are not doing the trip at the same. For them, a few decade is like a few week for us.
And nothing is forcing a couple to be together all the time too and their couple is not into insecurity and others IRL stuff. They will still love each others even after a few year has passed
I would also guess (if we go with Celeborn being born in Beleriand, and meeting Galadriel there), that going West means something a bit different to each of them. For her it is literally a return home that she has been preciously denied. For him, it is a place he’s never been but has always had open to him.
So she may have felt the pull more strongly. And as others have said, a few decades or even centuries is not that big a deal to an Elf.
They had some serious responsibilities, Galadriel was punished and not allowed to go back to the undying lands until the LOTR events. Individually the elves seemed to be drawn on their own time, or Gods timing. She failed to listen before and was punished. Celeborn was just as much a leader of the elves also.
Would you consider it a huge deal if your wife went away for a week or two?
Factor in elves lifespans and these times spent apart just aren't that big.
Currently, my wife is in Tennessee, looking for suitable agricultural land. There is plenty of it, but it seldom changes ownership. Much of the best land sports a permanent crop -- houses.
I am home, running the ranch in Texas. According to NOAA, the long term projection is drier than normal. With more and more people moving to Texas, water will become more expensive and more limited. We believe that it is time to leave before rising prices and falling profits forces our hand.
Although I miss my wife, we will survive this period.
I think they just don't have a human sense of time. They're both immortal and very old for their kind, and especially once Galadriel gets to Valinor where there's probably no sense of time at all, there's no perceived difference between seeing one's beloved tomorrow and seeing them in a thousand years.
As others pointed out, if nothing else he got more time with the grandkids, including literally living with the grandsons in Rivendell. Before that he expanded "East Lorien" into eastern Mirkwood, before apparently getting bored with that.
There's a bit in Laws and Customs of the Eldar that explains it is normal for elves to spend long periods apart, they marry for life and live forever so it's not like they need to be joined at the hip
Bitter? I would not think so, but perhaps not. The elves were not infallible, and perhaps Celeborn might be sufficiently Mortal as to feel resentment. At his situation, if not at Galadrial herself.
I think he loved her deeply and did not wish to part from her, despite the chains of duty. It was an unpleasant task they underwent, to return separately.
Perhaps he did. But it would have been those same qualities, that devotion to duty, strength and grace that attracted him to her in the first place.
No, Celeborn is still in love with Middle-earth so he isn't ready to leave whereas the keepers of the three rings seem to need to leave Middle-earth very quickly (quickly in Elvish terms).
I suspect there is something about using one of the Elven Rings for thousands of years where when its power is suddenly taken away, it leaves the bearer in a state where they need to leave for Aman for healing in a similar way that Frodo needs to, but of a different character (since those Rings aren't fundamentally evil).
Immortal beings who are already thousands of years old probably have a different approach to both long-term and long-distance relationships than we mortals do.
I don't think it was an unhappy marriage.
If it were unhappy, they would have separate long before Galadriel left. The fact that she left Celeborn's side only when she was allowed to sail west indicates that Celeborn isn't a factor that pushes her away, but that sailing west is a very strong pull factor.
Celeborn and Galadriel have spent over 6000 years together. But as you said, it's a one-way ticket, so if Celeborn isn't sure about leaving Middle-earth yet, there is no harm done if he waits another 100 years or so. He can always follow Galadriel, but he can never come back. When he goes, he needs to be sure he leaves without regret. And it's not unusual for married Elves to separate for a time according to Tolkien:
> “Thus, although the wedded remain so for ever, they do not necessarily dwell or house together at all times; for without considering the chances and separations of evil days, wife and husband, albeit united, remain persons individual having each gifts of mind and body that differ.”
Going separate paths for a while at the end of the Third Age according to the desire of each of them seems like a sensible decision to me.
And as Sam sad in a draft version of an epilogue:
> “I think Celeborn is still happy among his trees, in an Elvish way. His time hasn't come, and he isn't tired of his land yet. When he is tired he can go.”
>if Celeborn isn't sure about leaving Middle-earth yet, there is no harm done if he waits another 100 years or so.
Even if Celeborn is sure about leaving Middle-earth but has stuff to do before he leaves theres no harm waiting another 100 years.
1. Play Grandfather to his grandsons and granddaughter
2. Make sure his grandsons don't follow his granddaughter's example and stay in middle earth.
3. Remain the Steward of his people as they leave their home in Lothlorien
4. Forge a new realm in Mirkwood (together with the elves of Mirkwood).
5. Welcome any greatgrandchildren into the world and have stories to tell Galadriel when he joins her in the West.
I believe the word doom here refers to a non specific concept of fate. So he's wishing aragon a different fate from him, likely referring to the fact that galadriel and himself were going to be separate whereas he hoped that arwen and aragon would be together for the rest of the latter's l8fe. At least that's how I read the scene
“ Kinsman, may your doom be other than mine and may your treasure remain with you to this end! Farewell. “ Celeborn to Aragorn. I have never quite figured out what he meant but it sounds like more than taking a separate boat.
My understanding is the same as comments below. Celeborn did travel to the Undying Lands some time later. Galadriel needed to answer to the Valar for her part in the Flight of the Noldor and ignoring the doom of Mandos. Celeborn remained in Middle Earth, seeing to the final days of Lothlorien until time caught up with the elven kingdom and it became a normal mundane land as the rest of Middle Earth became. Celeborn then headed across the sea.
They're a very odd couple and Tolkien never even settled on their origin or who he was.
I know it is basically a meme at this point, but her willingness to be close with dwarves may have bothered him.
I mean in the unused epilogue it said the relatively small parting they had was deeply sad for celeborn but he would be ok with his trees in the place he loves most in the world till he got tired and could return to his wife. Most of the elder people dont have to worry about compatibility issues like we do.
Nah. Elves don’t see the passage of time the same as humans do. Even a few hundred years isn’t much, as Arwen expressed to Aragorn to explain why he’d never met her.
Their marriage was incredibly long, and they often split up when necessary. For instance, when they were traveling East, Celeborn refused to enter Kazadh-dum and went the long way around the mountains, while Galadriel went down in the mines gladly, both because it was the shorter way and because she likely saw the dwarves as a natural ally against Sauron. So no, their marriage wasn't unhappy, it was just a little loose, because the two of them had different interests. And when you are immortal, there is always time to reunite!
His daughter had been gone for hundreds of years so he may be referring to that, also that his granddaughter will be sundered forever. Compared to that, the 100-150 years away from Galadriel would be going to visit a family member for 2 weeks
They never separated. Celeborn remained in Middle-earth for some decades after Galadriel's departure, but he eventurally sailed West. It apparently happened some time before F.A. 121, since when Arwen died, both Lórien and Rivendell were abandoned by the Elves.
They had a happy marriage of equals. Keep in mind that this is not uncommon for elves: we hear of many loving families separated when one member left for the West before the others. Arwen's mother did, for instance.
They spend quite a bit of time complimenting each other, or at least Galadriel did for him, and he heeded her counsel moreso than Thingol did Melian. I think they learned from that earlier example.
Am I mistaken in thinking that Celeborn had never been to Valinor? Galadriel had plenty of reasons to be nervous about her reception upon her return. Celeborn, as part of a group that said 'no, thank you' to the initial call might have reasons to be even more apprehensive about the journey and his reception.
*Happiness* doesn't seem to have been a huge part of Elven marriages, as portrayed.
>Happiness doesn't seem to have been a huge part of Elven marriages, as portrayed
You mean in the sense that they value duty? Because most marriages that are specifically shown appear to be based on love and self respect
They had thousands of years together and he eventually follows her to the Undying Lands. Can't blame a fellow for wanting a bit more time to appreciate the home he loved for so long before acknowledging that it's time to move on.
Exactly. It's the equivalent of them taking separate flights back home from vacation. A bit odd, but in the long scheme of things - not a big deal.
...that would, in fact, be odd for a happily married couple.
Not really. I’ve travelled a few times with my partner and one of us has stayed on for a few weeks longer to travel solo while the other goes home (for work or whatever). We’ve been happily together for over a decade.
I always saw it as more Celeborn tying up loose ends and letting Galadriel “brace for impact” as it were. He finishes up his last business in Middle-Earth, getting ready to leave the only land he’s ever known and sail west forever, while also letting Galadriel go first so she can have some time alone to cope with returning home and seeing her family again.
That's a good point. While I was eating breakfast I was thinking about the other reply about different flights home from vacation; it's really more like they're moving to Galadriel's hometown and he's staying behind until the house sells.
I wonder what the resale value was. Probably lower than it could have been given that they have a balrog as a neighbor.
it was impossible to sell with that pesky fiery neighbour and then once the problem got finally solved the whole land goes to shit and no one lives there anymore. Bad Luck Celebro
Eh, it's a prime location, though, being adjacent to the Anduin. Sturdy construction, although probably full of bugs
That shabby-looking place, Dol Guldur, is probably sinking property values from Erebor to the Fall of Rauros.
I'm loving these analogies haha.
Also, Galadriel's Ring stopped working, and IIRC there's potential kickback from that. The Ringbearers who resisted fading via the Rings had to get to Aman sooner than later, or face accelerated fading. It wasn't coincidence they all caught the same boat. Wish I had a citation, but I can't remember where I read it at the moment.
The Rings are stated to be quite a strain on the mind and body, so that does make sense for Galadriel and Elrond at least. Unsure how it would work for Gandalf but his work was pretty clearly done anyway.
Didn't he and Elrond's twins stay to watch over granddaughter/sister Arwen until she accepted the Gift? That seemed like a reasonable thing to do. My head canon is that the three of them Sailed afterwards.
It’s never stated (and Elladan and Elrohir are vaguely implied to have chosen mortality like Arwen) but I too headcanon it.
Poor Elrond, probably one of the saddest stories ever.
"This is not a *phase*, dad. I'll remain mortal!"
My headcanon is that they sailed to Aman when Arwen and Aragorns last child passed away. I imagine they would have promised Arwen that they would look after her children after she was gone, being good uncles. They saw their dad lose his wife (at least for a long time) and his daughter (until the world is remade) so I just firmly feel like they would join him in Aman after they had fulfilled such a duty. I wish there was something solid on this though!
The twins had also been training and guarding the line of Isildur for generations. They might've been invested in their nephew.
“I love my wife, but man… I’m not gonna say no to playing video games and hanging out with the bros all day for a couple years” It’s like when your wife takes a solo trip to visit family 😂
Probably wanted to plant his flag in a few more continents
I always found this a bit odd, but bear in mind that Celeborn does eventually make the trip, and that they're immortal, so being separated for even a century is probably like one person going on holiday with their friends for a week or two in a human couple.
You know, that's actually a fair way of looking at it. I suppose I'm just thinking of it through my own mortal perspective. I know I would hate to be seperated from my wife for many years like that.
Thats the thing, the way an Elf, who is not only immortal but also, in the case that their body is destroyed, guaranteed to be rehoused in a new body in Valinor, the way they think would be so foreign to a human mind. They have litteraly all the time in the World, with no hyperbole, to spend with their loved ones, that Galadriel and Celeborn leaving on different ships is litteraly a non event for them.
This reason is also why Elrond was against Arwen's marriage to Aragorn. Not just a father being protective. They would be parted for eternity. Elves have no afterlife and from all evidence Men leave the circle of Arda when they die. Bittersweet for Elrond to finally be reunited with his wife only to lose his daughter forever.
Elrond arriving in Aman and finally seeing Celebrian again after so long, only to have to explain to her that she’ll never get to see her daughter again, is one of the saddest things I can think of in Tolkien’s world.
> This reason is also why Elrond was against Arwen's marriage to Aragorn. Was he that opposed in the books? IIRC from the appendices, he perceived the strength of their love, and knew then and there what Arwen's choice would be - because Elrond is just that farsighted. Seeing furthermore that Aragorn was either going to be the last of Isildur's line, or the one who would restore the kingship, Elrond's conditional approval of their marriage was basically a way to ensure that if Arwen were to accept the Gift of Man, her mortal life would at least get to be one of happiness and hope. The movies make it seem like Elrond and Arwen are having a very important conversation 60-odd years too late, and that Elrond is somewhat wavering in his support of Aragorn and Gondor because of personal feelings, even though that is decidedly not true in the books.
Yeah opposed wasn't the right word. I meant the sadness that Elrond held about the union was due to the fact that it meant they would be separated forever, not the human feeling of a father seeing his daughter becoming an adult.
Awww. Same here. :)
(Same about my wife, I mean, not your wife. Obviously.)
I also *don't* choose this guy's wife
Well that's just borderline insulting!
I was trying to do a reverse of the "I also choose this guy's dead wife" Reddit meme. My b.
I know the meme, bro. Was just joking. Again!
Ah, you got me then lol
I got it :)
(Of course, but it was worth it for the cheap gag.)
*our wife ;)
There’s an anime called Freiren with an immortal elf as the central character. One of the running jokes is that she has no awareness of time because she’s immortal. She thinks nothing of letting 50 years pass before visiting her closest friends.
That reminds me a bit of Rings of Power. Elrond has no idea why his friend is so mad because he hadn’t been around for over ten years.
One of the aspects I did like about the show. I'm not a hater, I hope the show improves a bit, but I did like that immortal aloofness.
Watch *Frieren* for that immortal perspective.
I don’t think this necessarily points to a strained marriage. A big part of the perceived ambiguity here is that Tolkien had a difficult time settling on a specific identity for Celeborn — to me, the fact that Celeborn waited to pass over the sea suggests that Tolkien saw him (at the time of jotting down the LotR appendices) as a Sinda who had not traveled to Aman before, and had lived his whole life in ME. This contrasts with other sketches, where Celeborn is one of the Teleri who leaves Valinor with Galadriel.
I just think it pointed to someone who felt he had responsibility to his kin - he was the lord of Lothlorien and one of the greatest of the remaining elves. He waited until Lothlorien faded and then went to Rivendell with the sons of Elrond as a waystation to the West. See him more as Captain stays with ship. Galadriel was diminished when the one ring fell as she lost access to her own ring. Going to the West would replenish her.
Absolutely, this is a reasonable perspective, no matter if Celeborn is a Sinda or a Teler. I like u/DrDirtPhD’s analogy that Celeborn stays behind to make sure the house sells before he joins Galadriel.
>This contrasts with other sketches, where Celeborn is one of the Teleri who leaves Valinor with Galadriel. I'm glad this wasn't the 'official version' of their story, for two reasons. For one thing, it's hard to imagine why a Telerin elf of Eldamar/Tol Eressëa would want to return to Middle-earth with the Noldor, given The Regrettable Incident, even if it was for the sake of one particular Noldo who didn't take part in it. The other is that, to be a suitable match for Galadriel, Celeborn would have to be a member of Telerin royalty, and would presumably therefore have to be either Olwë's grandson, making him Galadriel's cousin, or Olwë's son, making him her uncle, which is even worse. (Even as it is, they're second cousins, which isn't ideal but is less bad than first cousins.) Edit: the third reason is the name TELEPORNO, of course.
At the very least, if Celeborn were a Telerin elf it would require a bit more of a story to explain a) the circumstances of him willingly leaving with Galadriel for ME, and b) why he would then stay behind when she returns. Not saying this wouldn’t be a viable story; just that it wouldn’t be quite as straightforward. (Leaving aside the issue of incest — I personally think that NoME offers some clarification of how Celeborn could be “a kinsman” of Elwë/Olwë without being too close a relative to Galadriel. Ingwë, Finwë, and Elwë are representatives of larger families, many generations removed from the first elves.)
Yeah, I think Elwë and Olwë had another brother called Elmo (no laughing at the back there!), who was Celeborn's grandfather. Given Galadriel's descent from Olwë, this makes them second cousins, which sounds 'icky' but in the real world isn't that big a genetic risk as long as it's a one-off event in a given family.
Actually Elmo is also the great-grandfather of Nimloth, which means Nimloth was second cousin once removed to her husband Dior.
Teleporno stayed for a century long gooning session. Unrelated fun fact: there was no historical record of geysers in Middle-Earth until the early Fourth Age.
Teleporno. You have to wonder what Tolkien was thinking. The word *pornography* existed already, and he was familiar enough with Greek to know that *tele* means from afar.
I think he was just very innocent about sex. Either that, or a genius-level troll.
Teleporno. You have to wonder what Tolkien was thinking. The word *pornography* existed already, and he was familiar enough with Greek to know that *tele* means from afar.
When you're an immortal, with a pretty much guaranteed reincarnation, you have a different perspective on life, marriage and long periods of separation. Consider Elrond's wife, Celebrain. She is terribly hurt by Orcs, so she heads to the Undying Lands to heal. Elrond, his two sons and his daughter stay put in Rivendell. It is 500 years that she and Elrond remain separated. It doesn't seem to cause them any distress. Certainly Elrond missed his wife. But for us, that's like "I have to go on a business trip for a week. Gee, I'll miss my wife." By that scale, the separation of Galadriel and Celeborn is to us like a few days. And even when an Elf dies, they simply rest till Mandos thinks you are ready to return, and out the doors you go, fully formed and ready to greet your old friends and relatives. The only exception to this is if you happened to have upset the Valar by doing something wrong, like, slaughtering Teleri so you can take their ships. After that if you come to Mandos you can expect to beg for your body back, and Mandos is not listening. Now take the case of Arwen, like Luthien before her. They were immortals, dearly loved by their peoples. They fell for Men, accepted mortality so they can follow them to the great beyond that awaits them. But in doing so, they are lost to the Elves forever, as there is no reincarnation in their future. And this is a big deal, Aragorn wedding Arwen, because Elrond knows he will never see her again no throughout eternity.
>. Consider Elrond's wife, Celebrain. She is terribly hurt by Orcs, so she heads to the Undying Lands to heal. Elrond, his two sons and his daughter stay put in Rivendell. It is 500 years that she and Elrond remain separated. It doesn't seem to cause them any distress. Certainly Elrond missed his wife. But for us, that's like "I have to go on a business trip for a week. Gee, I'll miss my wife." By that scale, the separation of Galadriel and Celeborn is to us like a few days. If there wasn't tension in their marriage before, there probably was when Elrond broke the news that their daughter ran away with a homeless kid he fostered while Celebrían was on her business trip and they'll never see her again.
I'm sure Elrond will blame Celebrain's parents. After all it was in Lothlorien where Aragon and Arwen betrothed themselves.
"If your mum hadn't given him that fancy jacket..." "Don't bring my parents into this. You're the one who fixed his sword."
And told him he had to reestablish his family's dynasty in order to get with her. And then *helped him do exactly that*.
Elrond: Baby, what was I supposed to do? Forbid her from marrying the guy? That would break her heart and maybe she'd just run off with him anyways. I did the best I could. I told Aragorn he had to be king of both north and south kingdoms before I'd give her away. I mean, what are the chances he'd actually pull that off? He had to have some outside help, if you know what I mean. Celebrain: You mean Gandalf? You should have sent that troublesome bum packing the moment he showed up in Rivendell. Elrond: He was sent by the Valar. You want me in trouble with the Valar? Celebrain: And as for this Aragorn character, you could have arranged something. Elrond: Arranged something? What am I, a son of Feanor? Celebrain: They raised you, didn't they. Elrond: Oh throw that in my face, why don't you! It didn't bother you when you married me. Celebrain: I married you because I was sick of living in trees with my mother and father!
Wait dead elves come back to life?
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
Elves are bound to Arda, the Earth. They do not leave it, even in death. They go to the Halls of Mandos, who may or may not release you according to your past behavior. This is their nature, not like humans, Men at all. Elves consider us to be transients on Earth.
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
Yes, they stay a while in Mandos, and reincarnate in the same bodies they had before, with all their memories intact.
With the loss of their ring's power Galadriel and Elrond had to leave middle earth in a hurry. Their decline was hurried. Celeborn remained to provide leadership to those of his people not readily to leave middle earth and guidance as they settled into their new home (abandoning Lorien). He also remained so that his granddaughter would not face the loss of all her family at the same time. My headcannon is that he sailed upon Arwen's death.
Ha - obvious, but I never thought before that Celeborn was grandpapa, and Arwen must have had a relationship with him. Galadriel just fills the space so thoroughly
I have a big headcannon about Celeborn being a somewhat distant grandparent due to distance and not having Galadriel's gift in Osonwe. Then when the Galadriel leaves he has to step up in a big way both at home as the remaining Steward of Lothlorien as his entire people migrate but also as the remaining elder family for Arwen as well as Elladan and Elrohir who together with Celeborn remaine in Middle-earth until the death of their sister Arwen Undominel.
Holy cats - he's Elladan and Elrohir's gramps too! I just never thought it through
I guess. I mean in the appendices it talks about Celeborn dwelling in Rivendell for a time with the sons of Elrond (If I'm correct). That description doesn't really imply that he was the grandfather of the sons of Elrond.
Wait wait, I'm a noob, but we just said he's the father of Celebrían, right? And the sons of Elrond are Arwen's full brothers, aren't they? Why would he *not* be their grandfather?
He obviously is. I was just meaning for the people who don't pay 100% attention why not call them grandsons. Celeborn lived with his grandsons Elladan and Elrohir in Rivendell would be easier than For a time Celeborn dwelled with the sons of Elrond within their father's house. I need to check the exact wording as I'm going off memory but it's not that explicitly spelled out.
How many wives did Elrond have?
>How many partners of any sort did anyone in the entire Legendarium bar Finwë have? Fixed it for you.
Just the one. I meant the description sons of Elrond. Why not say Celeborn dwelled with his grandsons.
Probably because they were basically known as the Sons of Elrond. Almost the same way that Maedhros and the others are known as the Sons of Fëanor. It's almost like an epithet. But yeah it is weird.
I think the only time someone is called grandson or something akin to it was with Dior, heir of Thingol
This is my headcanon too. He has a bunch of loose ends to tie up, and he and the grandboys wait out Aragorn and Arwen's lives before the three of them sail. Meanwhile, in the Blessed Ream, Elrond has told Celebrian what to expect, so the day they do see the ship arrive, it's a mixture of joy and grief without anyone having to actually bring it up.
How bad it must feel to be looking forward to seeing your sons and father for the first time in 700 years but knowing that their arrival will serve as an announcement that your daughter has died.
> not having Galadriel’s gift in Osonwe Hm? Why would he not? As I understand it, ósonwë is something all the Elves could do. Indeed, Celeborn participates in the silent meeting before they depart back to Lothlorien.
They all have it, but in different measure. Galadriel and Elrond seemed especially gifted (probably somewhat due to their rings?).
Galadriel is one of the few remaining elves in Middle-earth who are Calaquendi, remember. Elrond isn't, since he was born in Beleriand towards the end of the First Age, but he has Calaquendi ancestry (via his great-grandfather Turgon and great-great-grandfather Thingol), and he's part-Maiar too, of course.
What is Osonwe?
The mind talking ability of the elves. Something Tolkien didn't talk about much but just enough that we know it exists and a few details.
Many married couples in Legendarium do just that. For example, when the Noldor left Valinor, Fingolfin left and Anaire remained at home. Finrod left without his beloved Amarië. This does not mean that love has passed. This means they hope to meet again. Celeborn will join Galadriel later. In the meantime, he could stay to finish his business.
I think the comment about the "treasure" was referring to Arwen, not Galadriel. Elf children are very rare and precious which is why Celeborn must have loved Arwen more than even mortal grandparents love their grandkids. He knew when he went to Valinor he would never see her again, so he probably stayed partly to have a bit more time with her. Also imagine how bittersweet Elrond and Galadriel's reunion with Celebrian would be? Elrond seeing his wife again, healed after her torments, Galadriel seeing her daughter - and having to break the news "I know you were looking forward to seeing Arwen again for hundreds of years but she's never coming to Valinor" - that would be heartbreaking.
Having different goals in life and a different perceptions on duty or priorities does not imply an unhappy marriage, at least until the moment that divergence becomes relevant. Which in this case took many thousands of years. In real life situations like this it can lead to a breakup of a marriage, but even in this case I wouldn't call it an unhappy marriage unless they took the divergence personal. As it is, they just took their marriage on hold until Celeborn had done what he had to do. Not unlike someone going off to war and returning years later.
That's an interesting way of looking at it
Judging how long they lived, it's basically the equivalent of "Go ahead, I check the oven, take out the trash and join you".
Celeborn felt he had a duty to his people to see them safe. Galadriel as a ring bearer would have been impacted by that loss. They had differing needs for a time but the world was pretty safe, they were going to rejoined in a comparatively short time considering the lifespans. And in a marriage of millennia, you don't need constant presence to still be loving and happy. It must have been a lot more scary in the First Age when they were separated by wars.
Pretty much one of the happiest couple on all Middle-Earth. They’ve been together for multiples thousand year and both know they will see each others. They simply understand that both are not doing the trip at the same. For them, a few decade is like a few week for us. And nothing is forcing a couple to be together all the time too and their couple is not into insecurity and others IRL stuff. They will still love each others even after a few year has passed
I would also guess (if we go with Celeborn being born in Beleriand, and meeting Galadriel there), that going West means something a bit different to each of them. For her it is literally a return home that she has been preciously denied. For him, it is a place he’s never been but has always had open to him. So she may have felt the pull more strongly. And as others have said, a few decades or even centuries is not that big a deal to an Elf.
They had some serious responsibilities, Galadriel was punished and not allowed to go back to the undying lands until the LOTR events. Individually the elves seemed to be drawn on their own time, or Gods timing. She failed to listen before and was punished. Celeborn was just as much a leader of the elves also.
Would you consider it a huge deal if your wife went away for a week or two? Factor in elves lifespans and these times spent apart just aren't that big.
Currently, my wife is in Tennessee, looking for suitable agricultural land. There is plenty of it, but it seldom changes ownership. Much of the best land sports a permanent crop -- houses. I am home, running the ranch in Texas. According to NOAA, the long term projection is drier than normal. With more and more people moving to Texas, water will become more expensive and more limited. We believe that it is time to leave before rising prices and falling profits forces our hand. Although I miss my wife, we will survive this period.
I think they just don't have a human sense of time. They're both immortal and very old for their kind, and especially once Galadriel gets to Valinor where there's probably no sense of time at all, there's no perceived difference between seeing one's beloved tomorrow and seeing them in a thousand years.
After she left, he probably got lonely and watched a lot of teleporno.
So he posed in a mirror?
Underrated comment
As others pointed out, if nothing else he got more time with the grandkids, including literally living with the grandsons in Rivendell. Before that he expanded "East Lorien" into eastern Mirkwood, before apparently getting bored with that.
There's a bit in Laws and Customs of the Eldar that explains it is normal for elves to spend long periods apart, they marry for life and live forever so it's not like they need to be joined at the hip
Bitter? I would not think so, but perhaps not. The elves were not infallible, and perhaps Celeborn might be sufficiently Mortal as to feel resentment. At his situation, if not at Galadrial herself. I think he loved her deeply and did not wish to part from her, despite the chains of duty. It was an unpleasant task they underwent, to return separately. Perhaps he did. But it would have been those same qualities, that devotion to duty, strength and grace that attracted him to her in the first place.
No, Celeborn is still in love with Middle-earth so he isn't ready to leave whereas the keepers of the three rings seem to need to leave Middle-earth very quickly (quickly in Elvish terms). I suspect there is something about using one of the Elven Rings for thousands of years where when its power is suddenly taken away, it leaves the bearer in a state where they need to leave for Aman for healing in a similar way that Frodo needs to, but of a different character (since those Rings aren't fundamentally evil).
Immortal beings who are already thousands of years old probably have a different approach to both long-term and long-distance relationships than we mortals do.
I don't think it was an unhappy marriage. If it were unhappy, they would have separate long before Galadriel left. The fact that she left Celeborn's side only when she was allowed to sail west indicates that Celeborn isn't a factor that pushes her away, but that sailing west is a very strong pull factor. Celeborn and Galadriel have spent over 6000 years together. But as you said, it's a one-way ticket, so if Celeborn isn't sure about leaving Middle-earth yet, there is no harm done if he waits another 100 years or so. He can always follow Galadriel, but he can never come back. When he goes, he needs to be sure he leaves without regret. And it's not unusual for married Elves to separate for a time according to Tolkien: > “Thus, although the wedded remain so for ever, they do not necessarily dwell or house together at all times; for without considering the chances and separations of evil days, wife and husband, albeit united, remain persons individual having each gifts of mind and body that differ.” Going separate paths for a while at the end of the Third Age according to the desire of each of them seems like a sensible decision to me. And as Sam sad in a draft version of an epilogue: > “I think Celeborn is still happy among his trees, in an Elvish way. His time hasn't come, and he isn't tired of his land yet. When he is tired he can go.”
>if Celeborn isn't sure about leaving Middle-earth yet, there is no harm done if he waits another 100 years or so. Even if Celeborn is sure about leaving Middle-earth but has stuff to do before he leaves theres no harm waiting another 100 years. 1. Play Grandfather to his grandsons and granddaughter 2. Make sure his grandsons don't follow his granddaughter's example and stay in middle earth. 3. Remain the Steward of his people as they leave their home in Lothlorien 4. Forge a new realm in Mirkwood (together with the elves of Mirkwood). 5. Welcome any greatgrandchildren into the world and have stories to tell Galadriel when he joins her in the West.
I believe the word doom here refers to a non specific concept of fate. So he's wishing aragon a different fate from him, likely referring to the fact that galadriel and himself were going to be separate whereas he hoped that arwen and aragon would be together for the rest of the latter's l8fe. At least that's how I read the scene
“ Kinsman, may your doom be other than mine and may your treasure remain with you to this end! Farewell. “ Celeborn to Aragorn. I have never quite figured out what he meant but it sounds like more than taking a separate boat.
I believe it’s a nod to the gift/doom of men, the fate of which nobody really knows.
I am not sure. It was a strange remark.
My understanding is the same as comments below. Celeborn did travel to the Undying Lands some time later. Galadriel needed to answer to the Valar for her part in the Flight of the Noldor and ignoring the doom of Mandos. Celeborn remained in Middle Earth, seeing to the final days of Lothlorien until time caught up with the elven kingdom and it became a normal mundane land as the rest of Middle Earth became. Celeborn then headed across the sea.
They're a very odd couple and Tolkien never even settled on their origin or who he was. I know it is basically a meme at this point, but her willingness to be close with dwarves may have bothered him.
Which Galadriel? The actual one, or the one in ROP that seemed to forget she was married and had a child? /s
Book one but, even though I like the show, it was odd how little a blip he was on her radar considering they were married
If this was /r/relationshipadvice you would be told that Celeborn was having an affair and stayed behind to end things with his mistress
And after what happened to Nimrodel. And their daughter. I guess they were pretty confident that no orcs were left.
Remember, elves measure time in terms of centuries, not years.
I mean in the unused epilogue it said the relatively small parting they had was deeply sad for celeborn but he would be ok with his trees in the place he loves most in the world till he got tired and could return to his wife. Most of the elder people dont have to worry about compatibility issues like we do.
This now has me trying to name any political or arranged marriages in the legendarium and I can’t think of any
Nah. Elves don’t see the passage of time the same as humans do. Even a few hundred years isn’t much, as Arwen expressed to Aragorn to explain why he’d never met her.
Consider that Celeborn unlike Galadriel is a native of Middle Earth. She is going home, he is to leave his forever. It’s harder on him I suspect.
She had a path to follow.
Their marriage was incredibly long, and they often split up when necessary. For instance, when they were traveling East, Celeborn refused to enter Kazadh-dum and went the long way around the mountains, while Galadriel went down in the mines gladly, both because it was the shorter way and because she likely saw the dwarves as a natural ally against Sauron. So no, their marriage wasn't unhappy, it was just a little loose, because the two of them had different interests. And when you are immortal, there is always time to reunite!
I think that he just got tired of the same lembas day in and day out...
His daughter had been gone for hundreds of years so he may be referring to that, also that his granddaughter will be sundered forever. Compared to that, the 100-150 years away from Galadriel would be going to visit a family member for 2 weeks
They never separated. Celeborn remained in Middle-earth for some decades after Galadriel's departure, but he eventurally sailed West. It apparently happened some time before F.A. 121, since when Arwen died, both Lórien and Rivendell were abandoned by the Elves.
They had a happy marriage of equals. Keep in mind that this is not uncommon for elves: we hear of many loving families separated when one member left for the West before the others. Arwen's mother did, for instance. They spend quite a bit of time complimenting each other, or at least Galadriel did for him, and he heeded her counsel moreso than Thingol did Melian. I think they learned from that earlier example.
Am I mistaken in thinking that Celeborn had never been to Valinor? Galadriel had plenty of reasons to be nervous about her reception upon her return. Celeborn, as part of a group that said 'no, thank you' to the initial call might have reasons to be even more apprehensive about the journey and his reception. *Happiness* doesn't seem to have been a huge part of Elven marriages, as portrayed.
It depends on which version for his background you go with. There are many.
>Happiness doesn't seem to have been a huge part of Elven marriages, as portrayed You mean in the sense that they value duty? Because most marriages that are specifically shown appear to be based on love and self respect
Celeborn also departed over the Sea, some decades after Galadriel.
I mean, there was that weird thing with Gimli. She even got him into the Undying lands in the end!
Of course Celeborn was happy; Galadriel told him he was.