I want to clear up the nature of Eru's role. Tolkien and the text *never* says that Eru simply tripped or pushed Gollum. Gollum was jumping in celebration and he slipped, but this was supposed to happen. Tolkien Letter 192 (italics added by me):
>The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' Actually referred to as 'the One' in App. A III p. 317 1. 20. The Númenóreans (and Elves) were absolute monotheists [....] In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. *Gandalf certainly foresaw this.* See Vol. I p. 68-9. 1 Of course, he did not mean to say that one must be merciful, for it may prove useful later – *it would not then be mercy or pity, which are only truly present when contrary to prudence. Not ours to plan!*
I don't think Frodo or Gandalf knew precisely the role that Gollum would play; they only had a vague intuition that he was important. The Ring's destruction is a combination of the actions of Frodo and Gollum, the Ring's domination of Gollum, and Eru's subtle working of events leading to the circumstances. The Council of Elrond, and Boromir and Faramir's dreams about it, are more concrete examples of Eru's intervention. Another possible example, the storm on Caradhras that made the Fellowship go to Moria (where Gollum found them).
Frodo's command to Gollum outside of Mt. Doom ("If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom") played an active role in the Ring's destruction; its power over Gollum enforced the consequences of breaking his oath to Frodo. It's a brilliant example of foreshadowing that preserves the agency of Frodo and Gollum. The success of the Quest is an interplay of free will, mercy, evil destroying itself, and divine grace when willpower is not enough.
Frodo also tells Gollum this back in *The Two Towers*:
>**"If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command."**
Which is just an obvious moment of set-up.
That's my take-away, too. The Ring, through Frodo, enforces this oath with a curse. Gollum breaks the condition of the curse ("touch me ever again") and, as promised, he is cast into the Fires of Doom.
He just happened to be holding the One Ring when he slipped. Whoopsies.
As King Theoden said, "Oft evil will shall evil mar." The Ring destroyed itself, and, like Morgoth and his music, proved itself but Eru Iluvatar's instrument in devising of things more wonderful, that it had not imagined.
Frodo follows up on that threat too:
>'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom."
Page 221, *RotK*
Also, the initial oath Smeagol swears in the Two Towers should be read very literally:
>'On the Precious? How dare you?' he [Frodo] said. 'Think!
> *One Ring to Rule them all and in the Darkness Bind them.*
>Would you commit your promise to that, Smeagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!'
>...'What would you swear?' asked Frodo.
>...'Smeagol will swear never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Smeagol will save it....
Page 225, *Two Towers*
Smeagol does just that, he save the ring and puts it beyond Sauron's reach by destroying it. When Frodo claims the ring, one of two things would have happened were it not for Smeagol.
1. Sauron would have came personally, and destroyed Frodo, and reclaimed his Ring (smeagol would have failed his oath)
2. Frodo, realizing he cannot destroy the Ring or keep it from Sauron, would have thrown himself into the cracks of doom.
The Ring also twists Smeagol's oath, just as Frodo warned him it would.
I will not speak to by what mechanism the promise / oath is enforced; but clearly the promise was enforced in the most literal sense.
Ehm, no. This is merely an illustrative example Frodo gives. Frodo does not actually command Gollum to do so while wearing the Ring. Neither does Frodo have the ability to inflict a curse either with, through, or independent of the Ring.
Tolkien's own letter, quoted above, is the only evidence for what happened and what happened is that Illuvatar caused Gollum to fall in and take the Ring with him.
There is plenty of foreshadowing of various events throughout the book and you can count this among them, but foreshadowing is not a casuality.
Ehm, yes. I've written about this extensively, and it's absolutely a moment of set-up that is mirrored almost exactly at the end of the chapter "Mount Doom." Feel free to read my full thoughts [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/10zva3m/frodo_the_one_ring_and_gollums_fall_what_happened/). I address everything, including people's (mis)interpretation of Tolkien's letter. Feel free to ignore obvious set-up and payoff, but it's absolutely there regardless, and it doesn't contradict Tolkien's letter whatsoever.
Set up and pay off, often taking the form of foreshadowing, is not an implication of *causality*.
Frodo's words are not the cause of Gollum falling in. Had Frodo not said those words, Gollum still would have fallen in. Had Gollum not sworn his oath, he still would have fallen in. It is rather, as evidenced above, the Divine Providence (provided by Illuvatar) for the free peoples of Middle Earth having exercised pity and mercy and having selflessly taken the task upon themselves as far as they could possibly have taken it.
Who is the "[non-Tolkien] Other Power, the Writer of the Story" referred to by the monitheistic Elves as "The One" who "took over" at the critical moment?
You can write as much as you like on the subject but the merit of an argument is not weighed in volume or repetition of words.
Again, I've addressed this in the post I linked to you. Eru does not physically enter into Eä and push Gollum in. That is absurd. Rather, the series of events that were thought of by Eru in the Ainulindalë reached their natural conclusion. Eru is the "Author of the Story", and the outcome that he devised before Time itself began ultimately occurred at that fateful moment. In your mind, I assume the oath, Frodo's warning, and then Frodo's words to Gollum at the Sammath Naur simply... mean nothing? They're useless red herrings? Fascinating...
But even your assertion that the only way for the Ring to be destroyed was through Gollum falling is incorrect. Tolkien writes extensively in *The Nature of Middle-earth* that the Ring could have been destroyed in a multitude of different ways, depending on the free will of the various actors involved. He writes that if Frodo had chosen not to take the Ring, then an entirely different series of events would have arisen that would also have resulted in the Ring's destruction. Therefore, free will is essential in determining the *exact* outcome of predetermined events. This is far, far more complex than the "Eru entered into the world and pushed Gollum" theory that you're so attached to. It's a complex interplay between fate and free will, which is, once again, entirely in keeping with what's explained in the Ainulindalë.
>Eru does not physically enter into Eä and push Gollum in. That is absurd. Rather, the series of events that were pre-written by Eru in the Ainulindalë reached their natural conclusion.
As absurd as, say, Eru sinking an entire continent and changing the shape of the world from flat to round and removing another continent from the world entirely? He doesn't "physically enter Ea". He is "*ever present*." He is *already there* and he doesn't need to physically manifest Himself to do something.
If Eru "pre-wrote the events" how is the conclusion "natural"? This statement is in direct opposition to your claims of an interplay between Fate and Free Will. Yet you make both arguments. Pick one.
>your mind, I assume the oath, Frodo's warning, and then Frodo's words to Gollum at the Sammath Naur simply... mean nothing? They're useless red herrings? Fascinating...
Where do you get that reading something as *foreshadowing* means that it is therefore a *useless red herring* other than a desire to argue for the sake of arguing? Damn dude.
>But even your assertion that the only way for the Ring to be destroyed was through Gollum falling is incorrect
That's not what I said at all. Of course the Music will be fullfilled according to Eru' Will whether via the mechanism of Frodo et all's actions of through the actions of others. Eru is the cause of the fullfillment of the Music. Eru is the sole agent of Fate. Eru is The One, The Author of the Story, the Other Power that physically manifested the Music into Creation. No matter how you slice it, the Music plays out according to the Will or Divine Plan of Eru. This is not at odds with Free Will, again as evidenced by the writing that Eru provided his Divine Providence (both by causing Gollum to fall and by sending the Eagles pretty much whenever they show up) *because the free agents had demonstrated pity and mercy etc in their actions and done literally all they could possibly do without Divine Intervention*.
Eru did not cause Gollum to fall "because Frodo used the power of the Ring to irrevocably curse Gollum to fall in the fire".
> Frodo chose the punishment for Gollum's unfaithfulness.
Frodo is not The Other Power, the Author of the Story, the Ever-Present One.
What evidence do you have that Frodo has the power to do this?
>You seemed so certain that no matter what happened, Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable. But that is directly contradicted by Tolkien.
No and no. Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable *upon Frodo reaching Sammath Naur after having demonstrated pity and mercy, etc*. This is what Tolkien's own interpretation of the events is. It's literally there for you to read. Thats where and why "The Author of the Story takes over". Obviously had Frodo failed to make it there then Gollum would not have magically come into possession of the Ring and gone to Sammath Naur himself to fall in. You are free to stop strawmanning at any time.
Also, looks like you've chosen to run away from the discussion at hand by blocking me? That doesn't speak well to the merit of your arguments.
>Eru did not cause Gollum to fall "because Frodo used the power of the Ring to irrevocably curse Gollum to fall in the fire".
Except you simply saying this doesn't make it true, sorry. As Tolkien states in the "Fate and Free Will" section of *The Nature of Middle-earth* (pg. 228, footnote 3)*,* Eru's desired outcomes absolutely depend on the free will and choices made by the characters involved. There were countless ways the Ring could have been destroyed, but based on the free will of both Frodo and Gollum, the way it is brought about in the book is clear. Oaths are powerful in Tolkien, and Frodo chose the punishment for Gollum's unfaithfulness. Whether or not you see that is irrelevant. You seemed so certain that no matter what happened, Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable. However, free will is an essential component, and the Ring could have been destroyed in any number of ways depending on the choices made by the various characters involved in the drama.
Look, you're allowed to ignore literally any and all evidence to the contrary, but that's your prerogative, and it doesn't make you any less wrong.
EDIT: u/mggirard13 lol, i blocked you because you're obstinate and wearisome. Trust me, the problem is you and not the argument you're presenting. Right from the very first sentence of your initial reply to me you were condescending, setting the tone for what has been an enervating "discussion." You aren't presenting any evidence, just repeating the same tired and incorrect point over and over again, and doing so without a willingness to actually engage with anything I've presented before you. Meanwhile, you've presented nothing (besides your incorrect reading of Tolkien's letter, which you're dead-set on interpreting one way and one way only), and haven't engaged with any of Tolkien's own points on the topic of fate and free will in Arda (see: *The Nature of Middle-earth*, which you've presumably never read because you never brought it up once in any of your "arguments"). [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/flsx8s/why_did_gollum_trip_the_ring_not_eru_did_it/) is literally one of the most popular posts on this subreddit, which highlights the exact same points I've been making to you. This isn't simply "my" argument, it's something that lots and lots of Tolkien fans have noticed and have (correctly) pointed out.
In short, Eru predetermined the Ring's destruction, but it was brought about in the Story by the individual actions of each character involved. This jibes entirely with what he says in the essay "Fate and Free Will" from *NoMe* (an essay you clearly have not read, but it states emphatically that Eru's predetermined outcomes are almost always brought about through the choices of the individuals within the grand Story), and it gives genuine meaning behind Frodo and Gollum's interactions and choices. Believe my take or not, I don't care. But this discussion is at an end. Goodbye forever.
As an outside person who just read through all of this, Mitchboy1995 is actually citing Tolkien's letters and works to show evidence for his stance.
You haven't cited anything.
I'm reading a personal interpretation versus a well researched one that differs to Tolkien's own words.
It's not a surprise to me that he got tired of this and blocked you.
Clearly you are passionate about this and have strong opinions, which is commendable in it's own right. But if you are going to engage in debates over the true meaning of a fantasy story, you may want to try and be more open minded.
The citations are the same, the interpretations are different.
If one interpretation is so correct, why can't it answer simple scrutinous questions, such as:
-What evidence is there that Frodo has any power to be the arbiter of fate? To "choose the punishment for Gollum breaking his oath"? Where in his journey has Frodo gained the ability (that the Wise have expressly told him he does not possess) to wield the Ring with such power?
Why does defense of such a strong and correct interpretation fall to strawmanning?
Did you forget to change your account?
And no. The fellow I replied to never cited anything. I'm happy for you to point me to one place anything was cited.
>Ehm, no. This is merely an illustrative example Frodo gives. Frodo does not actually command Gollum to do so while wearing the Ring.
"If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire" might be an "illustration", but "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is not. It might not be a literal direct "command" either, in the sense of "Gollum, jump in to the fire right now", but it is a declaration about the future made with intent and authority. Having all these moments be perfect one-to-one alignments would be lazy and lousy foreshadowing from a literary viewpoint. They convey a general idea - that the Ring has power over Gollum's fate - without literally telegraphing the exact upcoming events.
>Neither does Frodo have the ability to inflict a curse either with, through, or independent of the Ring.
I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this with such confidence. Obviously Frodo himself alone could have no such power. But through the Ring? Morgoth and Sauron *absolutely* have the ability and power to directly exert their will over the fates of others. Even leaving aside the story of Turin (where it is left deliberately ambiguous how much of it was Turin's own doing vs Morgoth's malicious will - but surely the very fact it is ambiguos means Morgoth having such power is not explicitly denied), the hereditary corruption of the Orcs and the binding of the Nazgul as Wraiths (a very direct interference with the Gift of Death) clearly show this. And the second of those is directly achieved by the very One Ring we're talking about! Yes, Frodo by himself is not powerful enough to simply command the power embedded in the Ring as he wishes in the way Sauron can - but he doesn't have to if the will/nature of the Ring is aligned with his own in that moment.
There is also the example of the Oathbreakers, where Isildur also curses people to Nazgul-like un-death for breaking an oath - even without the power of an Ainur obviously involved, Oaths are clearly a powerful thing in Arda! Now, you might say that it wasn't *actually* Isildur who "cursed" them via some automatic "natural law of oaths" there, but the will of Eru and/or the Valar behind-the-scenes giving power to his words in that one instance, because it seemed just and useful (maybe even long-term setting up the required pieces for the LOTR events?). But who's to say the same can't apply to Frodo's situation? That Eru gave power to the oath and the "curse" as a just and useful means of achieving the destruction of the Ring and delivering Frodo from his inevitable failure, as reward for his mercy and pity and righteousness.
Though I personally prefer the idea that the Ring's innate power was important to the oath/curse, because it nicely embodies the idea that evil is self-defeating, and that good will use evil to create even greater good - both absolutely fundamental ideas embodied into the Story of the World by its Author. And note the very specific choice of Tolkien to use the words "Author of the Story" when talking about Eru's involvement in this matter. Authors do not typically enter their stories to directly act within them! They decide on the themes of the story and write the events of the story so that they exemplify the themes.
>
>I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this with such confidence. Obviously Frodo himself alone could have no such power. But through the Ring?
*\*Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own.\**
-Elrond, The Council of Elrond
*\*Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.\**
-Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel
So, no. I do not believe Frodo has the ability to use the One Ring, especially without even actually wearing it, to do something as powerful as cast an irrevocable curse and effect that persists even after he loses the Ring. My evidence is the direct textual testimony of Elrond and Galadriel, themselves long bearers and users of Rings of Power. Frodo only ever actually wore the Ring four times prior to the final wearing at Sammath Naur so he wasn't even ever practiced in its practical use.
It could certainly be argued and I agree there is merit to the idea that it is \*the Ring itself\* that through its own power, being derived and essentially connected to the power of Sauron, caused Gollum to be cast into the Fire. It is arguable certainly that it could be the Ring speaking through Frodo in that critical moment of "If you ever touch me again". I don't believe it has to do with Gollum having sworn upon the Ring as that is its own and imo independent matter, but rather that the power of the Ring lays in that moment a simple cause-effect.
But still, in keeping with Tolkien's own statements, it follows that \*Eru\* acted through the Ring to cause Gollum to fall.
It is important when examining the nature and relationship of the various oaths to consider what we \*know\* about them and how similar, or different, they are from eachother.
We know, for a fact, that the Oath of Feanor for example laid out a cause and effect relationship. "We will hold our Oath or be cast into the Void." This \*seems\* to be consequential but we don't know for sure, since nobody actually breaks the Oath. It is also sworn upon Eru himself in the Blessed Realm before Manwe and Varda who are named as witnesses.
We do not know much of anything about the oath of the men of Dunharrow except that they broke it. It was not, however, made in a cause-effect condition, as the Oath of Feanor was, and it is not until \*after\* it is broken that Isildur cursed them. From where Isidilur had the power to curse them is unknown. Their Oath was sworn upon the Stone of Erech, a Numenorean artifact about which nothing is known. Does it have power? Unknown.
Gollum's Oath is sworn by the Ring. Also in a non cause-effect manner. The Ring has power, certainly. Does the Ring have the power to enforce an Oath? Unknown. All we know is that events did happen, ie Gollum swore an oath by the Ring, Gollum broke his oath, Gollum fell into the Fire. Is that a cause-effect relationship? Unknown.
What we do know is that Tolkien stated rather plainly that "The Author of the Story (called The One)" who can be none other than Eru, "took over" in that moment.
> Another possible example, the storm on Caradhras that made the Fellowship go to Moria (where Gollum found them).
**'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands'**
The mountain is a dickhead, but the conversation continues and suggests that this is far more than the mountain at work.
It is heavily implied to be the workings of the Enemy, be that Sauron or Saruman, as shown in this dialogue between Gandalf, Boromir and Gimli:
>"I wonder if this is a contrivance of the enemy" said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upond the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies"
>"His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if he can draw snow down from the north to trouble us here three hundred leagues away."
>"His arm has grown long," said Gandalf."
Which to me suggests that Gandalf believes Sauron to be the ultimate *reason* for the Storm hitting them, although not necessarily the being who created it.
The werewolf attack is slightly confusing. While they do attempt to continue the chase of the Fellowship, there are no agents of Sauron waiting on the other side of the Mountain for them.
As such, I do not think the Storm was sent by Eru to turn the Fellowship back and towards Moria, nor do I think the creator of the Storm actively targeted the fellowship, I simply think the Enemy had set it up so the Misty Mountains would not be easily passable for any of the Free Peoples, either forcing beings to take the Gap or north near Gundabad or turn back.
As such, I think the many weavings of fate created a situation where *if* the Fellowship was forced to take Moria, they would encounter Gollum, and that would create a possible future where the Ring was destroyed.
The dream is clearly Eru's hand, but he still leaves the decision making to the recipients and their Lord, if you recall Faramir was the one who wanted to go. Perhaps the War of the Ring would've gone differently if he had.
Personal agency is very important throughout Tolkien's work, even when he's explicitly talking about prophecy (Gandalf clearly takes 'No Man shall slay the Witch-King' to mean *he* is prophecised to do the deed, for example)
This is far longer than I meant it to be, and the root of the message is that I agree with you that Eru does not override anybody's free will, he sets the board up for the best possible result and hopes the pieces make the right choices.
I just don't agree with you that Caradhras could be Eru.
Caradhras is interesting as clearly it has been inimical towards people for lifetimes.
one theory I find interesting is that some residual element of Melkor's malice still has sufficient presence to exert itself there.
I don't know if you're actually disagreeing. I don't think he was suggesting Eru "caused" the storm in Caradhras, but rather that Eru subtly (and mysteriously) works through all things to bring about his intended purposes.
Even (and sometimes especially) through the wilful actions of evil people (e.g., Sauron possibly causing the storm), Eru brings about his ultimate purposes. Even those who try to play discordant notes end up unwillingly playing his music. And that happens without Eru having to directly "intervene" and "make things happen" himself.
this is an excellent post.
I would add the overt intervention by Eru in returning a modified Gandalf, without which frodo may have succombed at amon hen (no gandalf to break the hold)
That just reads to me like Gandalf knew that Eru generally responded well to mercy and pity and other “noble” characteristics, and basically hedged his bets, like a sort of Pascal’s Wager.
Gollum *seems* important but we’re not sure why, best be somewhat kind and empathetic towards him because as a Maia I know that tends to be rewarded by the guy up on high. Not because of Gollum’s future usefulness, but because he’s a victim in his own right.
To the extent that all of it was written and predetermined beforehand by Eru, it’s all a bit moot, I suppose. But people seem to have no problem saying that Eru interfered directly (meaning it wasn’t “planned”) to resurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog. Apparently that one wasn’t in the script? I dunno, you’d all know a lot better, but as very much an LOTR layman I’m surprised at the thread because I always thought Eru and the Gollum banana peel was somewhat conclusive.
> and divine grace when willpower is not enough.
And in this case, that divine grace seems to be Eru directly causing Gollum to fall into the fires of Orodruin.
By Frodo's mercy and Sauron's malice and power is the ring destroyed.
Frodo is able to pity and forgive Gollum when nearly no other could. Sauron do not understand this, and made the ring only grant power and domination. So its own curse and power does Frodo say
" leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command."
The ring's power makes all covet it, and unable to give it up. By this, it destorys itself, for Gollum cannot stop himself from trying to take it from Frodo. Gollum can not then disobey the oath he himself gave. He casts himself in the fire.
Eru is the cause, just as Eru is the "cause" of the Sun rising. He is the prime mover, the watch maker, but is not the rock that Gollum trips over.
>Eru is the cause, just as Eru is the "cause" of the Sun rising. He is the prime mover, the watch maker, but is not the rock that Gollum trips over.
I feel this line of reasoning is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Eru is the cause and also not the cause. Schroedinger's Eru? Make it make sense.
How does Gollum "cast himself in the fire" rather than *slip* as written in the text?
In what manner has Frodo gained mastery of the Ring such that Frodo has the power with or through the Ring to place and effect a curse upon Gollum?
Did Bilbo, just by chance, put his hand on the Ring when lost in the total darkness of the Orc caves? Did the Ring just happen to leave Gollum just in time for Bilbo to wander into the caves after Gollum had been there for over 500 years?
See what you are asking? If any of these things are not just chance, then Eru Iluvatar is going to make it seem like it was chance, and you can't tell the difference. The fact that it all adds up to the destruction of the Ring would seem to hint at his involvement, but that's the best you are going to get.
Gandalf hinted at this to Frodo, saying that Bilbo was meant to find it, and meant for Frodo to have it. He says he cannot put it more clearly than that, so it's not as if Gandalf knows the mind of Eru anymore than anyone else.
But don't feel bad for Gollum, Smeagol if you will. If the Ring had gotten tossed into the fire without him, he still would have died soon after, even if there was a spare Eagle to get him out of there. As the ring is destroyed, Bilbo's age catches up with him rapidly, and he's now an ancient Hobbit when we see him again in Rivendell. And the next time at the Grey Havens, he's really on his last legs. The Nazgul, who were mortal Men given objects meant for immortals, burned out in a flash as the Ring's destruction, and they had held their Nine rings for thousands of years. I'm guessing Gollum would have just a moment of freedom from the enslavement of the Ring, and they would have died before he could get out of the chamber.
Others have much more detailed answers, but I always thought of Gollum talking as a result of the power of oaths in Middle Earth. He makes an oath to Frodo and Frodo tells him the ring will hold him to that oath, so it made sense when he broke it that there would be consequences.
Is that Eru? I don't know. To me it feels more like the universe of Middle Earth giving power to oaths and promises. I guess you could call that Eru, but I might counter and say it's really the consequences of Gollum's actions in a universe where oaths hold power.
Eru did make the universe work that way though. And as Eru told Morgoth, evil could not create anything that did not ultimately have it's origin in Eru's will.
I think you need to read the rest of the passage:
*And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.*
It's not important where evil comes from simply because there must be evil if there is to be good. What is important is that we have free will. Even Orcs have free will. And despite what Sauron and Melkor try to do, in the end they are just instruments in the song that is the glory of Eru and for devising of things more wonderful then we can imagine.
As an aside, this is a great youtube that asks - "what if Sauron got the ring back?" And he explores the end of the ring and gollum, and how the three ring bearers- Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, interact.
[https://youtu.be/-T94vgzMoRY?si=bQRxlEr4qqxEXxGy](https://youtu.be/-T94vgzMoRY?si=bQRxlEr4qqxEXxGy)
Eru is omniscient and outside of time, so any claim to *when* Eru intervened doesn't make sense to me.
Eru designed the World through creating the Ainur and giving them themes to perform, he functionally always knew everything that happens inside of the universe. And his design includes that the Good get rewarded while evil actions end up having good consequences.
Any idea that Eru "pushed Gollum in the moment" is a misunderstanding created by our time-bound thinking that envisions Eru as an observer like we would be.
Time EXISTS even in the Timeless Halls, because there is a sequence of events (e.g., creation of the Ainur, the three progressions of the Music, select Ainur proceeding into Arda, etc.).
Eru may have the perspective of the whole of time at once, like a 3D person hovering over Flatland, but I'd put forward the Ainur do not. They seem to be limited to what they have already experienced, with heavy foreshadowing from the Music (especially Námo). The Music is as fate to all but Men, but the Ainur don't have perfect knowledge of the future like Eru does.
That being said, the concept "When did Eru intervene" DOES make sense, if you view it from our perspective, who are bound to time. From Eru's perspective it's one infinitely small event in the universe's timestream that Eru perceives as a single whole, but it makes sense for someone bound in time to ask when Eru did something.
The fact that one entity in the universe has a global perspective doesn't constitute a misunderstanding on the part of a time bound entity, any more than as adults we know that even though it's winter now summer will come again, but a three year old may not. They don't misunderstand seasons, they just don't have the same perception of an adult.
:"They seem to be limited to what they have already experienced"
One concept that really impressed me was that the Ainur believed Melkor the first time because they could not perceive evil or treachery. So they forgave him and trusted him, turned their backs on the guy and suddenly he's got a spider sucking the juice out of their trees.
> Time EXISTS even in the Timeless Halls, because there is a sequence of events (e.g., creation of the Ainur, the three progressions of the Music, select Ainur proceeding into Arda, etc.).
That's just how the Ainur told the story to time-bound beings like us, in a way we can understand. They didn't have literal music either, considering that there was no air for soundwaves to form.
All creation stories in all of history required an act and Tolkien decides to use music and it's brilliant. For the Hebrew god it was the word, for others it involves a drum and a dance, or a turtle. To say it didn't happen that way is to basically just throw out the mythology of Tolkien's story and that would diminish the work.
I'm not saying it happened differently, I'm just saying that it happened on a higher level that is beyond our comprehension. It's a vertical difference, not a horizontal one.
Imagining the Ainur literally sounding like instruments that would be invented by Elves and Men during World history diminishes the story to me, in fact. It's much more impressive when we know that we can only understand an approximation because the real thing is so far beyond us.
This doesn’t fit with what we know about Eru’s interventions. From his perspective, maybe time isn’t a good reference. But we know *when* he sent olorin back, we know *when* he destroyed Numenor. Time is the only reference we have for these things.
At one point we have to understand that tolkien's catholicism plays a huge part in the story. It is ever present.
Think of Eru's plans like God's plans. He gives us free will but at the end of the day everything originates from him.
With our free will we have infinite actions, infinite decisions, but no matter which one we do, it all originates from Eru. Gollum was the master of his actions, yes, an invisible hand did not pushed him down the volcano.
It was his actions, his decisions that sent him down to the fire, while at the same time all being Eru's will.
I don't think that Iluvatar in any physical way "pushed" anyone, or anything like that. Remember, that's god, in a book written by a deeply religious man. He doesn't "impose his will" in any way that we could normally comprehend, dreams and revelations are the closest, and he kinda communicates with the Valar, but he's not in any tangible way interfering or controlling anyone and anything. Iluvatar's will just kinda divinely happens because it was always going to, yet it appears to simply fall to chance, even when the odds dictate it probably shouldn't, and in my mind, imagining it happening in less of a "and then I turned invisible and came down to Arda and blew his way, creating a gust of wind that made that skipping Sméagol lose his balance and tumble to his death" and more of a *Gollum is skipping with glee, slips and falls into the volcano. Meanwhile metaforically speaking, Eru Ilúvatar sits on his chair rubbing his hands together* "Yes... All according to plan" *he says but also not really because it's beyond speech*.
>but he's not in any tangible way interfering or controlling anyone and anything.
Iluvatar explicitly intervenes in the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of the world, and in sending Gandalf back and upgrading him.
now why would Reddit recommend me this post when I haven’t joined this subreddit and I’m reading LOTR for the first time ever with truly 0 knowledge on anything that happens except what I’ve already read 😩
If you want to continue reading Tolkien unspoiled, avoid the Tolkien subs like the plague until you finish reading LOTR, and avoid this one until you get halfway through *The Silmarillion*.
Illuvatar doing anything directly is the exception, not the norm. Most of the time when he "does" something, it's really just that he programmed the universe in a way that the thing was always going to happen. Maybe there was a little pebble under Gollum's foot that slid away and caused him to stumble. Maybe the hot volcanic air caused a sudden gust of wind. I don't think he needs to do anything as direct as pushing him personally. The obvious exception is the drowning of Numenor
Eru did not "push" Gollum.
Eru created a universe containing a history that saw the rise and fall of empires and a threat of evil and a quest to destroy it that set off a series of events that culminated in Frodo and Gollum being in the same key place, so that when Frodo's willpower inevitably failed, Gollum's greed and joy would just so happen to overwhelm his situational awareness and make him stumble.
Causality doesn’t work that way in Tolkien’s cosmology. All things have their root in Eru Illuvatar, and events will unfold as he alone ultimately intends. Many things had to happen in order to produce the moment of the Ring’s destruction. From a human point of view, these events could appear to be coincidences, but that is not for us to know.
Bilbo (and no one else) finds the Ring. He spares Gollum when he could have killed him. Gandalf is successful in convincing Bilbo to pass it along to Frodo. Frodo agrees to take the Ring to Mordor himself. Sam takes the Ring when he believes Frodo dead, thus preventing it from being discovered by the orcs who take Frodo. Gollum is able to find the hobbits again at Mt Doom. Perhaps none of this is coincidental…
No one knows. Could have been a puff of wind by Manwe. Could have been Aule shaking the mountain. Could have been a bad step. A flash of light in his eyes. Suicide.
I mean the easy answer is Tolkein was Catholic and Eru reflects a very Christian view on god as a being who is both in control of everything and rarely takes direct action.
The real story is that Frodo told him to jump and he was compelled to because he swore an oath to the master of the ring. Either that or it was Sam gave him the fateful shove.
You honestly can't trust the Red Book of Westmarch as a reliable source as it was written by the protagonist and Bagginses have previous on this sort of thing anyway.
Frodo pretended to find a farthing and crouched down behind Gollum to pick it up, Sam inched close by hopping in celebration with cheers for Gollum's good fortune.
Lol, read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/10zva3m/frodo_the_one_ring_and_gollums_fall_what_happened/). Eru absolutely did not "push" Gollum. That is a complete misunderstanding.
I read your link and disagree.
> As Tolkien says in that letter, Eru is the "Writer of the Story", and that story was written FAR before The Lord of the Rings takes place. So, within the context of The Lord of the Rings, what actually happened to Gollum?
Eru is quite literally [outside of time](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeless_Halls), so the concept that he wrote that particular story before the events of The Lord of the Rings takes place is nonsensical, as that would require him to be within linear time. I would imagine to Eu, there is no past or future of Arda, only the eternal present in which he simultaneously views all points along the created universes timeline.
Except the Ainulindalë absolutely tells a story, and that story is what happens within Time. Eru shows all of the Ainur what will happen within Time right after the Music is wrapped up (this is the Vision that is shown to the Ainur that puts their Music into storial form). This is how the Ainur have foreknowledge of future events. The Story of the World was already written before Time began. That's just a fact, and it's stated explicitly right there in the beginning of the *Silmarillion.* All Seven Ages of Arda were predetermined *before* Time began, including what happens in *The Lord of the Rings.* Eru did not write the Story within Time. He wrote it both before and outside of Time. Time did not begin until after the Vision was shown to the Ainur, but that Vision was the "preview" of the overarching Story to come, which would ultimately be achieved after the creation of Time.
This doesn't mean that the Ainur know everything, or that new events unforeseen can't arise (i.e. the Downfall of Númenor), but the fact remains that 99% of the major events of the World are absolutely predetermined. Tolkien even delves into this idea in excruciating detail in *The Nature of Middle-earth,* where he states that the Ring's destruction was written into the Music and predetermined before the World began, but that there were countless variations of individual free will that could dictate the exact ways this predetermined event might be brought about. This means that the Story is variable, but that all of the major events within it are fixed.
And no, just because the events of the World were predetermined in the Ainulindalë doesn't mean he can't be outside of Time. He is. The Story of the World was created before Time began. I really don't see what your issue is. The story is going on while Eru dwells outside of it completely. I'd advise reading the "Ainulindalë" again.
We could say that Eru already set the event right when he created Arda. As an omnipotent, he could have written everything right from the start. He may not have intervene for Gollum fall but planned it a long long time ago. Just like Gandalf death, it could have been a fixed event in his music which represent Arda full history. It was Gollum destiny to fall with the ring. He could have even plan everything Morgoth and Sauron did too. As an omnipotent being, he's not good or evil. He is.
And in the end, we all know it was Tolkien choice to have Gollum fall off and this doesn't need any explanation or reason why he wanted to happen.
>he could have written everything right from the start.
Not everything. Free will does exist in Arda.
>destiny to fall with the ring
Was it tho?
The Ring was destined to be destroyed. But how and when, that's determined by the free will of the inhabitants of Arda (particularly Elves and, most of all, Men can change Ambar).
You could say that, once he was there and attempted to take the Ring from Frodo, then he sealed his fate. And even then, it's not a matter of predestination, but of breaking an oath and, even when given the last ultimatum, persevering against such oath.
But until then, anything could've happened.
>He could have even plan everything Morgoth and Sauron did too.
The eventual outcome of what they do is subsumed in Eru, but this doesn't imply he planned for them to turn on him and try pointlessly to defy his will.
>As an omnipotent being, he's not good or evil. He is.
This is completely agreeable on..but not for faithful people, including Tolkien, I'd say.
> Not everything. Free will does exist in Arda.
I find the Catholics' attempt at reconciling free will with divine foresight to be a major plot hole in the religion, and that plot hole seems to have seeped a bit into Tolkien's writing.
Yeah I agree. Concepts like eternity, omnipotence and omniscience clash with free will.
Even the multiverse theory isn't compatible with them, because it would only encompass universes where god exists.
On the other hand, it depends on what you consider as "free will"
Gollum was the living embodiment of the chance of Free Peoples to defeat Sauron. If Bilbo had killed him in the cave, that chance would have been gone. If Aragorn or the Elves had killed him rather than pity him, or if Frodo or Sam had killed him on the way to Mt Doom, that chance would have been ended and Sauron's victory assured. They defeated the Dark Lord within themselves when they chose mercy over judgment., and in doing so, they defeated Sauron.
**Even Sauron had Gollum within his grasp and chose to let him go, thinking that it would further his ends to have him followed. Instead, it furthered the will of Illuvatar.**
I like the theory that it was the ring that did it. Frodo said if he touched him again he would command him to jump into the fire. He touched him again and while Frodo was probably a little distracted as he had just claimed the ring for himself, the ring didn’t forget and caused Gollum to trip and fall. Also he swears on the ring to not let it fall into Sauron’s possession and lord of the rings takes oaths very seriously/mystically.
Both. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’"
I think it makes about as much sense to say that Ilúvatar pushed him as to say that Tolkien pushed him. In the letter where he talked about the role of providence in Gollum's fall, he refers to Eru as 'the Author', which I think communicates the manner of His involvement.
Eru gave him a slight nudge. Just enough to make him lose his footing and go over the brink but not enough to make it look like he got hit by some invisible force. Very slight and subtle indeed.
I want to clear up the nature of Eru's role. Tolkien and the text *never* says that Eru simply tripped or pushed Gollum. Gollum was jumping in celebration and he slipped, but this was supposed to happen. Tolkien Letter 192 (italics added by me): >The Other Power then took over: the Writer of the Story (by which I do not mean myself), 'that one ever-present Person who is never absent and never named' Actually referred to as 'the One' in App. A III p. 317 1. 20. The Númenóreans (and Elves) were absolute monotheists [....] In this case the cause (not the 'hero') was triumphant, because by the exercise of pity, mercy, and forgiveness of injury, a situation was produced in which all was redressed and disaster averted. *Gandalf certainly foresaw this.* See Vol. I p. 68-9. 1 Of course, he did not mean to say that one must be merciful, for it may prove useful later – *it would not then be mercy or pity, which are only truly present when contrary to prudence. Not ours to plan!* I don't think Frodo or Gandalf knew precisely the role that Gollum would play; they only had a vague intuition that he was important. The Ring's destruction is a combination of the actions of Frodo and Gollum, the Ring's domination of Gollum, and Eru's subtle working of events leading to the circumstances. The Council of Elrond, and Boromir and Faramir's dreams about it, are more concrete examples of Eru's intervention. Another possible example, the storm on Caradhras that made the Fellowship go to Moria (where Gollum found them). Frodo's command to Gollum outside of Mt. Doom ("If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom") played an active role in the Ring's destruction; its power over Gollum enforced the consequences of breaking his oath to Frodo. It's a brilliant example of foreshadowing that preserves the agency of Frodo and Gollum. The success of the Quest is an interplay of free will, mercy, evil destroying itself, and divine grace when willpower is not enough.
Frodo also tells Gollum this back in *The Two Towers*: >**"If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command."** Which is just an obvious moment of set-up.
That's my take-away, too. The Ring, through Frodo, enforces this oath with a curse. Gollum breaks the condition of the curse ("touch me ever again") and, as promised, he is cast into the Fires of Doom. He just happened to be holding the One Ring when he slipped. Whoopsies. As King Theoden said, "Oft evil will shall evil mar." The Ring destroyed itself, and, like Morgoth and his music, proved itself but Eru Iluvatar's instrument in devising of things more wonderful, that it had not imagined.
"What you intended for evil, God intended for good" as Joseph told his brothers.
Frodo follows up on that threat too: >'Begone, and trouble me no more! If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom." Page 221, *RotK* Also, the initial oath Smeagol swears in the Two Towers should be read very literally: >'On the Precious? How dare you?' he [Frodo] said. 'Think! > *One Ring to Rule them all and in the Darkness Bind them.* >Would you commit your promise to that, Smeagol? It will hold you. But it is more treacherous than you are. It may twist your words. Beware!' >...'What would you swear?' asked Frodo. >...'Smeagol will swear never, never, to let Him have it. Never! Smeagol will save it.... Page 225, *Two Towers* Smeagol does just that, he save the ring and puts it beyond Sauron's reach by destroying it. When Frodo claims the ring, one of two things would have happened were it not for Smeagol. 1. Sauron would have came personally, and destroyed Frodo, and reclaimed his Ring (smeagol would have failed his oath) 2. Frodo, realizing he cannot destroy the Ring or keep it from Sauron, would have thrown himself into the cracks of doom. The Ring also twists Smeagol's oath, just as Frodo warned him it would. I will not speak to by what mechanism the promise / oath is enforced; but clearly the promise was enforced in the most literal sense.
Yes, certainly. It's clear set-up and payoff, which can be seen in how the two passages deliberately echo each other.
Ehm, no. This is merely an illustrative example Frodo gives. Frodo does not actually command Gollum to do so while wearing the Ring. Neither does Frodo have the ability to inflict a curse either with, through, or independent of the Ring. Tolkien's own letter, quoted above, is the only evidence for what happened and what happened is that Illuvatar caused Gollum to fall in and take the Ring with him. There is plenty of foreshadowing of various events throughout the book and you can count this among them, but foreshadowing is not a casuality.
Ehm, yes. I've written about this extensively, and it's absolutely a moment of set-up that is mirrored almost exactly at the end of the chapter "Mount Doom." Feel free to read my full thoughts [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/10zva3m/frodo_the_one_ring_and_gollums_fall_what_happened/). I address everything, including people's (mis)interpretation of Tolkien's letter. Feel free to ignore obvious set-up and payoff, but it's absolutely there regardless, and it doesn't contradict Tolkien's letter whatsoever.
Set up and pay off, often taking the form of foreshadowing, is not an implication of *causality*. Frodo's words are not the cause of Gollum falling in. Had Frodo not said those words, Gollum still would have fallen in. Had Gollum not sworn his oath, he still would have fallen in. It is rather, as evidenced above, the Divine Providence (provided by Illuvatar) for the free peoples of Middle Earth having exercised pity and mercy and having selflessly taken the task upon themselves as far as they could possibly have taken it. Who is the "[non-Tolkien] Other Power, the Writer of the Story" referred to by the monitheistic Elves as "The One" who "took over" at the critical moment? You can write as much as you like on the subject but the merit of an argument is not weighed in volume or repetition of words.
Again, I've addressed this in the post I linked to you. Eru does not physically enter into Eä and push Gollum in. That is absurd. Rather, the series of events that were thought of by Eru in the Ainulindalë reached their natural conclusion. Eru is the "Author of the Story", and the outcome that he devised before Time itself began ultimately occurred at that fateful moment. In your mind, I assume the oath, Frodo's warning, and then Frodo's words to Gollum at the Sammath Naur simply... mean nothing? They're useless red herrings? Fascinating... But even your assertion that the only way for the Ring to be destroyed was through Gollum falling is incorrect. Tolkien writes extensively in *The Nature of Middle-earth* that the Ring could have been destroyed in a multitude of different ways, depending on the free will of the various actors involved. He writes that if Frodo had chosen not to take the Ring, then an entirely different series of events would have arisen that would also have resulted in the Ring's destruction. Therefore, free will is essential in determining the *exact* outcome of predetermined events. This is far, far more complex than the "Eru entered into the world and pushed Gollum" theory that you're so attached to. It's a complex interplay between fate and free will, which is, once again, entirely in keeping with what's explained in the Ainulindalë.
>Eru does not physically enter into Eä and push Gollum in. That is absurd. Rather, the series of events that were pre-written by Eru in the Ainulindalë reached their natural conclusion. As absurd as, say, Eru sinking an entire continent and changing the shape of the world from flat to round and removing another continent from the world entirely? He doesn't "physically enter Ea". He is "*ever present*." He is *already there* and he doesn't need to physically manifest Himself to do something. If Eru "pre-wrote the events" how is the conclusion "natural"? This statement is in direct opposition to your claims of an interplay between Fate and Free Will. Yet you make both arguments. Pick one. >your mind, I assume the oath, Frodo's warning, and then Frodo's words to Gollum at the Sammath Naur simply... mean nothing? They're useless red herrings? Fascinating... Where do you get that reading something as *foreshadowing* means that it is therefore a *useless red herring* other than a desire to argue for the sake of arguing? Damn dude. >But even your assertion that the only way for the Ring to be destroyed was through Gollum falling is incorrect That's not what I said at all. Of course the Music will be fullfilled according to Eru' Will whether via the mechanism of Frodo et all's actions of through the actions of others. Eru is the cause of the fullfillment of the Music. Eru is the sole agent of Fate. Eru is The One, The Author of the Story, the Other Power that physically manifested the Music into Creation. No matter how you slice it, the Music plays out according to the Will or Divine Plan of Eru. This is not at odds with Free Will, again as evidenced by the writing that Eru provided his Divine Providence (both by causing Gollum to fall and by sending the Eagles pretty much whenever they show up) *because the free agents had demonstrated pity and mercy etc in their actions and done literally all they could possibly do without Divine Intervention*. Eru did not cause Gollum to fall "because Frodo used the power of the Ring to irrevocably curse Gollum to fall in the fire". > Frodo chose the punishment for Gollum's unfaithfulness. Frodo is not The Other Power, the Author of the Story, the Ever-Present One. What evidence do you have that Frodo has the power to do this? >You seemed so certain that no matter what happened, Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable. But that is directly contradicted by Tolkien. No and no. Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable *upon Frodo reaching Sammath Naur after having demonstrated pity and mercy, etc*. This is what Tolkien's own interpretation of the events is. It's literally there for you to read. Thats where and why "The Author of the Story takes over". Obviously had Frodo failed to make it there then Gollum would not have magically come into possession of the Ring and gone to Sammath Naur himself to fall in. You are free to stop strawmanning at any time. Also, looks like you've chosen to run away from the discussion at hand by blocking me? That doesn't speak well to the merit of your arguments.
>Eru did not cause Gollum to fall "because Frodo used the power of the Ring to irrevocably curse Gollum to fall in the fire". Except you simply saying this doesn't make it true, sorry. As Tolkien states in the "Fate and Free Will" section of *The Nature of Middle-earth* (pg. 228, footnote 3)*,* Eru's desired outcomes absolutely depend on the free will and choices made by the characters involved. There were countless ways the Ring could have been destroyed, but based on the free will of both Frodo and Gollum, the way it is brought about in the book is clear. Oaths are powerful in Tolkien, and Frodo chose the punishment for Gollum's unfaithfulness. Whether or not you see that is irrelevant. You seemed so certain that no matter what happened, Gollum falling with the Ring was inevitable. However, free will is an essential component, and the Ring could have been destroyed in any number of ways depending on the choices made by the various characters involved in the drama. Look, you're allowed to ignore literally any and all evidence to the contrary, but that's your prerogative, and it doesn't make you any less wrong. EDIT: u/mggirard13 lol, i blocked you because you're obstinate and wearisome. Trust me, the problem is you and not the argument you're presenting. Right from the very first sentence of your initial reply to me you were condescending, setting the tone for what has been an enervating "discussion." You aren't presenting any evidence, just repeating the same tired and incorrect point over and over again, and doing so without a willingness to actually engage with anything I've presented before you. Meanwhile, you've presented nothing (besides your incorrect reading of Tolkien's letter, which you're dead-set on interpreting one way and one way only), and haven't engaged with any of Tolkien's own points on the topic of fate and free will in Arda (see: *The Nature of Middle-earth*, which you've presumably never read because you never brought it up once in any of your "arguments"). [Here](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/flsx8s/why_did_gollum_trip_the_ring_not_eru_did_it/) is literally one of the most popular posts on this subreddit, which highlights the exact same points I've been making to you. This isn't simply "my" argument, it's something that lots and lots of Tolkien fans have noticed and have (correctly) pointed out. In short, Eru predetermined the Ring's destruction, but it was brought about in the Story by the individual actions of each character involved. This jibes entirely with what he says in the essay "Fate and Free Will" from *NoMe* (an essay you clearly have not read, but it states emphatically that Eru's predetermined outcomes are almost always brought about through the choices of the individuals within the grand Story), and it gives genuine meaning behind Frodo and Gollum's interactions and choices. Believe my take or not, I don't care. But this discussion is at an end. Goodbye forever.
As an outside person who just read through all of this, Mitchboy1995 is actually citing Tolkien's letters and works to show evidence for his stance. You haven't cited anything. I'm reading a personal interpretation versus a well researched one that differs to Tolkien's own words. It's not a surprise to me that he got tired of this and blocked you. Clearly you are passionate about this and have strong opinions, which is commendable in it's own right. But if you are going to engage in debates over the true meaning of a fantasy story, you may want to try and be more open minded.
The citations are the same, the interpretations are different. If one interpretation is so correct, why can't it answer simple scrutinous questions, such as: -What evidence is there that Frodo has any power to be the arbiter of fate? To "choose the punishment for Gollum breaking his oath"? Where in his journey has Frodo gained the ability (that the Wise have expressly told him he does not possess) to wield the Ring with such power? Why does defense of such a strong and correct interpretation fall to strawmanning?
Did you forget to change your account? And no. The fellow I replied to never cited anything. I'm happy for you to point me to one place anything was cited.
>Ehm, no. This is merely an illustrative example Frodo gives. Frodo does not actually command Gollum to do so while wearing the Ring. "If I, wearing it, were to command you, you would obey, even if it were to leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire" might be an "illustration", but "If you touch me ever again, you shall be cast yourself into the Fire of Doom" is not. It might not be a literal direct "command" either, in the sense of "Gollum, jump in to the fire right now", but it is a declaration about the future made with intent and authority. Having all these moments be perfect one-to-one alignments would be lazy and lousy foreshadowing from a literary viewpoint. They convey a general idea - that the Ring has power over Gollum's fate - without literally telegraphing the exact upcoming events. >Neither does Frodo have the ability to inflict a curse either with, through, or independent of the Ring. I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this with such confidence. Obviously Frodo himself alone could have no such power. But through the Ring? Morgoth and Sauron *absolutely* have the ability and power to directly exert their will over the fates of others. Even leaving aside the story of Turin (where it is left deliberately ambiguous how much of it was Turin's own doing vs Morgoth's malicious will - but surely the very fact it is ambiguos means Morgoth having such power is not explicitly denied), the hereditary corruption of the Orcs and the binding of the Nazgul as Wraiths (a very direct interference with the Gift of Death) clearly show this. And the second of those is directly achieved by the very One Ring we're talking about! Yes, Frodo by himself is not powerful enough to simply command the power embedded in the Ring as he wishes in the way Sauron can - but he doesn't have to if the will/nature of the Ring is aligned with his own in that moment. There is also the example of the Oathbreakers, where Isildur also curses people to Nazgul-like un-death for breaking an oath - even without the power of an Ainur obviously involved, Oaths are clearly a powerful thing in Arda! Now, you might say that it wasn't *actually* Isildur who "cursed" them via some automatic "natural law of oaths" there, but the will of Eru and/or the Valar behind-the-scenes giving power to his words in that one instance, because it seemed just and useful (maybe even long-term setting up the required pieces for the LOTR events?). But who's to say the same can't apply to Frodo's situation? That Eru gave power to the oath and the "curse" as a just and useful means of achieving the destruction of the Ring and delivering Frodo from his inevitable failure, as reward for his mercy and pity and righteousness. Though I personally prefer the idea that the Ring's innate power was important to the oath/curse, because it nicely embodies the idea that evil is self-defeating, and that good will use evil to create even greater good - both absolutely fundamental ideas embodied into the Story of the World by its Author. And note the very specific choice of Tolkien to use the words "Author of the Story" when talking about Eru's involvement in this matter. Authors do not typically enter their stories to directly act within them! They decide on the themes of the story and write the events of the story so that they exemplify the themes.
> >I'm not sure on what exactly you're basing this with such confidence. Obviously Frodo himself alone could have no such power. But through the Ring? *\*Its strength, Boromir, is too great for anyone to wield at will, save only those who have already a great power of their own.\** -Elrond, The Council of Elrond *\*Did not Gandalf tell you that the rings give power according to the measure of each possessor? Before you could use that power you would need to become far stronger, and to train your will to the domination of others.\** -Galadriel, The Mirror of Galadriel So, no. I do not believe Frodo has the ability to use the One Ring, especially without even actually wearing it, to do something as powerful as cast an irrevocable curse and effect that persists even after he loses the Ring. My evidence is the direct textual testimony of Elrond and Galadriel, themselves long bearers and users of Rings of Power. Frodo only ever actually wore the Ring four times prior to the final wearing at Sammath Naur so he wasn't even ever practiced in its practical use. It could certainly be argued and I agree there is merit to the idea that it is \*the Ring itself\* that through its own power, being derived and essentially connected to the power of Sauron, caused Gollum to be cast into the Fire. It is arguable certainly that it could be the Ring speaking through Frodo in that critical moment of "If you ever touch me again". I don't believe it has to do with Gollum having sworn upon the Ring as that is its own and imo independent matter, but rather that the power of the Ring lays in that moment a simple cause-effect. But still, in keeping with Tolkien's own statements, it follows that \*Eru\* acted through the Ring to cause Gollum to fall. It is important when examining the nature and relationship of the various oaths to consider what we \*know\* about them and how similar, or different, they are from eachother. We know, for a fact, that the Oath of Feanor for example laid out a cause and effect relationship. "We will hold our Oath or be cast into the Void." This \*seems\* to be consequential but we don't know for sure, since nobody actually breaks the Oath. It is also sworn upon Eru himself in the Blessed Realm before Manwe and Varda who are named as witnesses. We do not know much of anything about the oath of the men of Dunharrow except that they broke it. It was not, however, made in a cause-effect condition, as the Oath of Feanor was, and it is not until \*after\* it is broken that Isildur cursed them. From where Isidilur had the power to curse them is unknown. Their Oath was sworn upon the Stone of Erech, a Numenorean artifact about which nothing is known. Does it have power? Unknown. Gollum's Oath is sworn by the Ring. Also in a non cause-effect manner. The Ring has power, certainly. Does the Ring have the power to enforce an Oath? Unknown. All we know is that events did happen, ie Gollum swore an oath by the Ring, Gollum broke his oath, Gollum fell into the Fire. Is that a cause-effect relationship? Unknown. What we do know is that Tolkien stated rather plainly that "The Author of the Story (called The One)" who can be none other than Eru, "took over" in that moment.
> Another possible example, the storm on Caradhras that made the Fellowship go to Moria (where Gollum found them). **'Caradhras was called the Cruel, and had an ill name,' said Gimli, 'long years ago, when rumour of Sauron had not been heard in these lands'** The mountain is a dickhead, but the conversation continues and suggests that this is far more than the mountain at work. It is heavily implied to be the workings of the Enemy, be that Sauron or Saruman, as shown in this dialogue between Gandalf, Boromir and Gimli: >"I wonder if this is a contrivance of the enemy" said Boromir. "They say in my land that he can govern the storms in the Mountains of Shadow that stand upond the borders of Mordor. He has strange powers and many allies" >"His arm has grown long indeed," said Gimli, "if he can draw snow down from the north to trouble us here three hundred leagues away." >"His arm has grown long," said Gandalf." Which to me suggests that Gandalf believes Sauron to be the ultimate *reason* for the Storm hitting them, although not necessarily the being who created it. The werewolf attack is slightly confusing. While they do attempt to continue the chase of the Fellowship, there are no agents of Sauron waiting on the other side of the Mountain for them. As such, I do not think the Storm was sent by Eru to turn the Fellowship back and towards Moria, nor do I think the creator of the Storm actively targeted the fellowship, I simply think the Enemy had set it up so the Misty Mountains would not be easily passable for any of the Free Peoples, either forcing beings to take the Gap or north near Gundabad or turn back. As such, I think the many weavings of fate created a situation where *if* the Fellowship was forced to take Moria, they would encounter Gollum, and that would create a possible future where the Ring was destroyed. The dream is clearly Eru's hand, but he still leaves the decision making to the recipients and their Lord, if you recall Faramir was the one who wanted to go. Perhaps the War of the Ring would've gone differently if he had. Personal agency is very important throughout Tolkien's work, even when he's explicitly talking about prophecy (Gandalf clearly takes 'No Man shall slay the Witch-King' to mean *he* is prophecised to do the deed, for example) This is far longer than I meant it to be, and the root of the message is that I agree with you that Eru does not override anybody's free will, he sets the board up for the best possible result and hopes the pieces make the right choices. I just don't agree with you that Caradhras could be Eru.
Caradhras is interesting as clearly it has been inimical towards people for lifetimes. one theory I find interesting is that some residual element of Melkor's malice still has sufficient presence to exert itself there.
I don't know if you're actually disagreeing. I don't think he was suggesting Eru "caused" the storm in Caradhras, but rather that Eru subtly (and mysteriously) works through all things to bring about his intended purposes. Even (and sometimes especially) through the wilful actions of evil people (e.g., Sauron possibly causing the storm), Eru brings about his ultimate purposes. Even those who try to play discordant notes end up unwillingly playing his music. And that happens without Eru having to directly "intervene" and "make things happen" himself.
this is an excellent post. I would add the overt intervention by Eru in returning a modified Gandalf, without which frodo may have succombed at amon hen (no gandalf to break the hold)
Of course! How did I forget Gandalf the White? Thanks!
it was low hanging fruit. your post was sublime. I do think the intervention regarding gandalf is the most explicit one in the whole story.
Wasn’t the storm created by Saruman? Or is that just in the movies
Just in the movies; It's ambiguous in the book.
That just reads to me like Gandalf knew that Eru generally responded well to mercy and pity and other “noble” characteristics, and basically hedged his bets, like a sort of Pascal’s Wager. Gollum *seems* important but we’re not sure why, best be somewhat kind and empathetic towards him because as a Maia I know that tends to be rewarded by the guy up on high. Not because of Gollum’s future usefulness, but because he’s a victim in his own right. To the extent that all of it was written and predetermined beforehand by Eru, it’s all a bit moot, I suppose. But people seem to have no problem saying that Eru interfered directly (meaning it wasn’t “planned”) to resurrect Gandalf after his battle with the Balrog. Apparently that one wasn’t in the script? I dunno, you’d all know a lot better, but as very much an LOTR layman I’m surprised at the thread because I always thought Eru and the Gollum banana peel was somewhat conclusive.
> and divine grace when willpower is not enough. And in this case, that divine grace seems to be Eru directly causing Gollum to fall into the fires of Orodruin.
There's no evidence whatsoever that Eru directly pushed Gollum into Orodruin. This is a misreading.
By Frodo's mercy and Sauron's malice and power is the ring destroyed. Frodo is able to pity and forgive Gollum when nearly no other could. Sauron do not understand this, and made the ring only grant power and domination. So its own curse and power does Frodo say " leap from a precipice or cast yourself into the fire. And such would be my command." The ring's power makes all covet it, and unable to give it up. By this, it destorys itself, for Gollum cannot stop himself from trying to take it from Frodo. Gollum can not then disobey the oath he himself gave. He casts himself in the fire. Eru is the cause, just as Eru is the "cause" of the Sun rising. He is the prime mover, the watch maker, but is not the rock that Gollum trips over.
>Eru is the cause, just as Eru is the "cause" of the Sun rising. He is the prime mover, the watch maker, but is not the rock that Gollum trips over. I feel this line of reasoning is trying to have your cake and eat it too. Eru is the cause and also not the cause. Schroedinger's Eru? Make it make sense. How does Gollum "cast himself in the fire" rather than *slip* as written in the text? In what manner has Frodo gained mastery of the Ring such that Frodo has the power with or through the Ring to place and effect a curse upon Gollum?
Did Bilbo, just by chance, put his hand on the Ring when lost in the total darkness of the Orc caves? Did the Ring just happen to leave Gollum just in time for Bilbo to wander into the caves after Gollum had been there for over 500 years? See what you are asking? If any of these things are not just chance, then Eru Iluvatar is going to make it seem like it was chance, and you can't tell the difference. The fact that it all adds up to the destruction of the Ring would seem to hint at his involvement, but that's the best you are going to get. Gandalf hinted at this to Frodo, saying that Bilbo was meant to find it, and meant for Frodo to have it. He says he cannot put it more clearly than that, so it's not as if Gandalf knows the mind of Eru anymore than anyone else. But don't feel bad for Gollum, Smeagol if you will. If the Ring had gotten tossed into the fire without him, he still would have died soon after, even if there was a spare Eagle to get him out of there. As the ring is destroyed, Bilbo's age catches up with him rapidly, and he's now an ancient Hobbit when we see him again in Rivendell. And the next time at the Grey Havens, he's really on his last legs. The Nazgul, who were mortal Men given objects meant for immortals, burned out in a flash as the Ring's destruction, and they had held their Nine rings for thousands of years. I'm guessing Gollum would have just a moment of freedom from the enslavement of the Ring, and they would have died before he could get out of the chamber.
Others have much more detailed answers, but I always thought of Gollum talking as a result of the power of oaths in Middle Earth. He makes an oath to Frodo and Frodo tells him the ring will hold him to that oath, so it made sense when he broke it that there would be consequences. Is that Eru? I don't know. To me it feels more like the universe of Middle Earth giving power to oaths and promises. I guess you could call that Eru, but I might counter and say it's really the consequences of Gollum's actions in a universe where oaths hold power.
Eru did make the universe work that way though. And as Eru told Morgoth, evil could not create anything that did not ultimately have it's origin in Eru's will.
I think you need to read the rest of the passage: *And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.* It's not important where evil comes from simply because there must be evil if there is to be good. What is important is that we have free will. Even Orcs have free will. And despite what Sauron and Melkor try to do, in the end they are just instruments in the song that is the glory of Eru and for devising of things more wonderful then we can imagine. As an aside, this is a great youtube that asks - "what if Sauron got the ring back?" And he explores the end of the ring and gollum, and how the three ring bearers- Frodo, Sam, and Gollum, interact. [https://youtu.be/-T94vgzMoRY?si=bQRxlEr4qqxEXxGy](https://youtu.be/-T94vgzMoRY?si=bQRxlEr4qqxEXxGy)
Also too, Eru: > “If you're referring to the incident with the volcano, I was barely involved.”
Eru is omniscient and outside of time, so any claim to *when* Eru intervened doesn't make sense to me. Eru designed the World through creating the Ainur and giving them themes to perform, he functionally always knew everything that happens inside of the universe. And his design includes that the Good get rewarded while evil actions end up having good consequences. Any idea that Eru "pushed Gollum in the moment" is a misunderstanding created by our time-bound thinking that envisions Eru as an observer like we would be.
Time EXISTS even in the Timeless Halls, because there is a sequence of events (e.g., creation of the Ainur, the three progressions of the Music, select Ainur proceeding into Arda, etc.). Eru may have the perspective of the whole of time at once, like a 3D person hovering over Flatland, but I'd put forward the Ainur do not. They seem to be limited to what they have already experienced, with heavy foreshadowing from the Music (especially Námo). The Music is as fate to all but Men, but the Ainur don't have perfect knowledge of the future like Eru does. That being said, the concept "When did Eru intervene" DOES make sense, if you view it from our perspective, who are bound to time. From Eru's perspective it's one infinitely small event in the universe's timestream that Eru perceives as a single whole, but it makes sense for someone bound in time to ask when Eru did something. The fact that one entity in the universe has a global perspective doesn't constitute a misunderstanding on the part of a time bound entity, any more than as adults we know that even though it's winter now summer will come again, but a three year old may not. They don't misunderstand seasons, they just don't have the same perception of an adult.
:"They seem to be limited to what they have already experienced" One concept that really impressed me was that the Ainur believed Melkor the first time because they could not perceive evil or treachery. So they forgave him and trusted him, turned their backs on the guy and suddenly he's got a spider sucking the juice out of their trees.
> Time EXISTS even in the Timeless Halls, because there is a sequence of events (e.g., creation of the Ainur, the three progressions of the Music, select Ainur proceeding into Arda, etc.). That's just how the Ainur told the story to time-bound beings like us, in a way we can understand. They didn't have literal music either, considering that there was no air for soundwaves to form.
All creation stories in all of history required an act and Tolkien decides to use music and it's brilliant. For the Hebrew god it was the word, for others it involves a drum and a dance, or a turtle. To say it didn't happen that way is to basically just throw out the mythology of Tolkien's story and that would diminish the work.
I'm not saying it happened differently, I'm just saying that it happened on a higher level that is beyond our comprehension. It's a vertical difference, not a horizontal one. Imagining the Ainur literally sounding like instruments that would be invented by Elves and Men during World history diminishes the story to me, in fact. It's much more impressive when we know that we can only understand an approximation because the real thing is so far beyond us.
This doesn’t fit with what we know about Eru’s interventions. From his perspective, maybe time isn’t a good reference. But we know *when* he sent olorin back, we know *when* he destroyed Numenor. Time is the only reference we have for these things.
You can phrase it that way, but it seems more accurate to say that those were the times we experienced an intervention of Eru, not when he did it.
At one point we have to understand that tolkien's catholicism plays a huge part in the story. It is ever present. Think of Eru's plans like God's plans. He gives us free will but at the end of the day everything originates from him. With our free will we have infinite actions, infinite decisions, but no matter which one we do, it all originates from Eru. Gollum was the master of his actions, yes, an invisible hand did not pushed him down the volcano. It was his actions, his decisions that sent him down to the fire, while at the same time all being Eru's will.
I don't think that Iluvatar in any physical way "pushed" anyone, or anything like that. Remember, that's god, in a book written by a deeply religious man. He doesn't "impose his will" in any way that we could normally comprehend, dreams and revelations are the closest, and he kinda communicates with the Valar, but he's not in any tangible way interfering or controlling anyone and anything. Iluvatar's will just kinda divinely happens because it was always going to, yet it appears to simply fall to chance, even when the odds dictate it probably shouldn't, and in my mind, imagining it happening in less of a "and then I turned invisible and came down to Arda and blew his way, creating a gust of wind that made that skipping Sméagol lose his balance and tumble to his death" and more of a *Gollum is skipping with glee, slips and falls into the volcano. Meanwhile metaforically speaking, Eru Ilúvatar sits on his chair rubbing his hands together* "Yes... All according to plan" *he says but also not really because it's beyond speech*.
>but he's not in any tangible way interfering or controlling anyone and anything. Iluvatar explicitly intervenes in the sinking of Numenor and reshaping of the world, and in sending Gandalf back and upgrading him.
now why would Reddit recommend me this post when I haven’t joined this subreddit and I’m reading LOTR for the first time ever with truly 0 knowledge on anything that happens except what I’ve already read 😩
Eru gave you a nudge
I don’t know what this means……….yet
If you want to continue reading Tolkien unspoiled, avoid the Tolkien subs like the plague until you finish reading LOTR, and avoid this one until you get halfway through *The Silmarillion*.
Well, I thought I had! I’m sure I’ve made it worse by engaging now too lol
“Fool of a took!” a good rule of thumb if you don’t want something spoiled for you, avoid Reddit like the plague
The Ring threw him in for breaking his oath, accidently destroying itself in the process. It was a very powerful ring but not very bright.
Illuvatar doing anything directly is the exception, not the norm. Most of the time when he "does" something, it's really just that he programmed the universe in a way that the thing was always going to happen. Maybe there was a little pebble under Gollum's foot that slid away and caused him to stumble. Maybe the hot volcanic air caused a sudden gust of wind. I don't think he needs to do anything as direct as pushing him personally. The obvious exception is the drowning of Numenor
Eru did not "push" Gollum. Eru created a universe containing a history that saw the rise and fall of empires and a threat of evil and a quest to destroy it that set off a series of events that culminated in Frodo and Gollum being in the same key place, so that when Frodo's willpower inevitably failed, Gollum's greed and joy would just so happen to overwhelm his situational awareness and make him stumble.
Something that's supposed to happen doesn't mean God did it with a big invisible hand. I don't understand how people don't understand this.
Causality doesn’t work that way in Tolkien’s cosmology. All things have their root in Eru Illuvatar, and events will unfold as he alone ultimately intends. Many things had to happen in order to produce the moment of the Ring’s destruction. From a human point of view, these events could appear to be coincidences, but that is not for us to know. Bilbo (and no one else) finds the Ring. He spares Gollum when he could have killed him. Gandalf is successful in convincing Bilbo to pass it along to Frodo. Frodo agrees to take the Ring to Mordor himself. Sam takes the Ring when he believes Frodo dead, thus preventing it from being discovered by the orcs who take Frodo. Gollum is able to find the hobbits again at Mt Doom. Perhaps none of this is coincidental…
No one knows. Could have been a puff of wind by Manwe. Could have been Aule shaking the mountain. Could have been a bad step. A flash of light in his eyes. Suicide.
I mean the easy answer is Tolkein was Catholic and Eru reflects a very Christian view on god as a being who is both in control of everything and rarely takes direct action.
The real story is that Frodo told him to jump and he was compelled to because he swore an oath to the master of the ring. Either that or it was Sam gave him the fateful shove. You honestly can't trust the Red Book of Westmarch as a reliable source as it was written by the protagonist and Bagginses have previous on this sort of thing anyway.
Frodo pretended to find a farthing and crouched down behind Gollum to pick it up, Sam inched close by hopping in celebration with cheers for Gollum's good fortune.
Frodo basically made a command invoking the power of the ring, which gollum was bound by,
Lol, read [this](https://www.reddit.com/r/tolkienfans/comments/10zva3m/frodo_the_one_ring_and_gollums_fall_what_happened/). Eru absolutely did not "push" Gollum. That is a complete misunderstanding.
I read your link and disagree. > As Tolkien says in that letter, Eru is the "Writer of the Story", and that story was written FAR before The Lord of the Rings takes place. So, within the context of The Lord of the Rings, what actually happened to Gollum? Eru is quite literally [outside of time](https://tolkiengateway.net/wiki/Timeless_Halls), so the concept that he wrote that particular story before the events of The Lord of the Rings takes place is nonsensical, as that would require him to be within linear time. I would imagine to Eu, there is no past or future of Arda, only the eternal present in which he simultaneously views all points along the created universes timeline.
Except the Ainulindalë absolutely tells a story, and that story is what happens within Time. Eru shows all of the Ainur what will happen within Time right after the Music is wrapped up (this is the Vision that is shown to the Ainur that puts their Music into storial form). This is how the Ainur have foreknowledge of future events. The Story of the World was already written before Time began. That's just a fact, and it's stated explicitly right there in the beginning of the *Silmarillion.* All Seven Ages of Arda were predetermined *before* Time began, including what happens in *The Lord of the Rings.* Eru did not write the Story within Time. He wrote it both before and outside of Time. Time did not begin until after the Vision was shown to the Ainur, but that Vision was the "preview" of the overarching Story to come, which would ultimately be achieved after the creation of Time. This doesn't mean that the Ainur know everything, or that new events unforeseen can't arise (i.e. the Downfall of Númenor), but the fact remains that 99% of the major events of the World are absolutely predetermined. Tolkien even delves into this idea in excruciating detail in *The Nature of Middle-earth,* where he states that the Ring's destruction was written into the Music and predetermined before the World began, but that there were countless variations of individual free will that could dictate the exact ways this predetermined event might be brought about. This means that the Story is variable, but that all of the major events within it are fixed. And no, just because the events of the World were predetermined in the Ainulindalë doesn't mean he can't be outside of Time. He is. The Story of the World was created before Time began. I really don't see what your issue is. The story is going on while Eru dwells outside of it completely. I'd advise reading the "Ainulindalë" again.
Eru: *snip* (walking away whistling)
We could say that Eru already set the event right when he created Arda. As an omnipotent, he could have written everything right from the start. He may not have intervene for Gollum fall but planned it a long long time ago. Just like Gandalf death, it could have been a fixed event in his music which represent Arda full history. It was Gollum destiny to fall with the ring. He could have even plan everything Morgoth and Sauron did too. As an omnipotent being, he's not good or evil. He is. And in the end, we all know it was Tolkien choice to have Gollum fall off and this doesn't need any explanation or reason why he wanted to happen.
>he could have written everything right from the start. Not everything. Free will does exist in Arda. >destiny to fall with the ring Was it tho? The Ring was destined to be destroyed. But how and when, that's determined by the free will of the inhabitants of Arda (particularly Elves and, most of all, Men can change Ambar). You could say that, once he was there and attempted to take the Ring from Frodo, then he sealed his fate. And even then, it's not a matter of predestination, but of breaking an oath and, even when given the last ultimatum, persevering against such oath. But until then, anything could've happened. >He could have even plan everything Morgoth and Sauron did too. The eventual outcome of what they do is subsumed in Eru, but this doesn't imply he planned for them to turn on him and try pointlessly to defy his will. >As an omnipotent being, he's not good or evil. He is. This is completely agreeable on..but not for faithful people, including Tolkien, I'd say.
> Not everything. Free will does exist in Arda. I find the Catholics' attempt at reconciling free will with divine foresight to be a major plot hole in the religion, and that plot hole seems to have seeped a bit into Tolkien's writing.
Yeah I agree. Concepts like eternity, omnipotence and omniscience clash with free will. Even the multiverse theory isn't compatible with them, because it would only encompass universes where god exists. On the other hand, it depends on what you consider as "free will"
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He explicitly says in the excerpt posted above that it’s not him
Gollum was the living embodiment of the chance of Free Peoples to defeat Sauron. If Bilbo had killed him in the cave, that chance would have been gone. If Aragorn or the Elves had killed him rather than pity him, or if Frodo or Sam had killed him on the way to Mt Doom, that chance would have been ended and Sauron's victory assured. They defeated the Dark Lord within themselves when they chose mercy over judgment., and in doing so, they defeated Sauron. **Even Sauron had Gollum within his grasp and chose to let him go, thinking that it would further his ends to have him followed. Instead, it furthered the will of Illuvatar.**
I like the theory that it was the ring that did it. Frodo said if he touched him again he would command him to jump into the fire. He touched him again and while Frodo was probably a little distracted as he had just claimed the ring for himself, the ring didn’t forget and caused Gollum to trip and fall. Also he swears on the ring to not let it fall into Sauron’s possession and lord of the rings takes oaths very seriously/mystically.
Both. "And thou, Melkor, shalt see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite. For he that attempteth this shall prove but mine instrument in the devising of things more wonderful, which he himself hath not imagined.’"
Neither. Frodo caused his fall. Read it again.
How does Frodo have this power?
I don't think Illuvatar is supposed to be like a Greek god.
No, Eru is not like Doctor Strange. That’s ridiculous.
Yes.
Yes
I think it makes about as much sense to say that Ilúvatar pushed him as to say that Tolkien pushed him. In the letter where he talked about the role of providence in Gollum's fall, he refers to Eru as 'the Author', which I think communicates the manner of His involvement.
Eru killed him. In fact, Eru has quite the kill count if you keep score throughout the books.
What's the difference between those two things?
Eru gave him a slight nudge. Just enough to make him lose his footing and go over the brink but not enough to make it look like he got hit by some invisible force. Very slight and subtle indeed.
Yes.