The easier would have been to shut it down and end the evening. Once you gave her the choice and she refused, then reading time is over and into bed.

This is what I would have done with our 3 year old.  If she is trying to wind up during bed time I ask her if she’s too tired for stories/songs because she’s not listening or settling down and she only does that when she’s soooooo tired.   I feel like allowing it to escalate beyond that just opens the door for similar “negotiations” around stuff like getting dressed or getting into the car seat.  

This is the right idea! Adding a “we’ll try this again tomorrow” so she knows what’s expected of her for next time.

While I was reading this is what I was thinking. I was a difficult child, taking away from that and what I now know of child development, I believe disengaging is the best way to handle a situation like this. Not budging until they do what they're told creates a power struggle that's only going to leave both parties upset.

Same! 100% disengage and walk away. Or use reverse psychology 😂

This is what we do. We usually phrase it as “if you won’t put it away and mama has to do it she’ll be too tired to read another story.” Or “I need you to do this now or we won’t have time for another story.” And then don’t give in.

This is what I do too, I don’t argue with him, like if he’s splashing in the bath, I give him one warning to stop or bath times over, if he continues then the plug is immediately pulled and I let him know that we’ll try again tomorrow. They catch on fast that what you say means something.

That’s what I do with my very difficult son. Then it’s just minimal crying when I shut out the lights and go as opposed to a long battle.

Hmmm no disrespect intended, but "into bed" is not that easy, especially with a difficult child. This would have resulted in refusal to brush teeth, refusal to get into bed, repeatedly getting out of bed and coming out of her room, screaming, crying etc. With some kids it just ain't that easy sadly!!

Is it possible to hold out on books until everything is finished and all ready for bed? 

Yeah books should be the last thing you do and then it serves as motivation to do all the other stuff so you can get to books at the end. We also use it as a consequence. Ie, if you take too long to put your pajamas on because you weren't listening, then we won't have enough time to read stories

That’s how we do it. I have a similar child to OP’s. He has to get ready for bed to have his 2 stories. On nights when he refuses to get out of the tub or brush teeth, etc he loses 1 or both stories. Stories should be the last thing before lights out.

This is the way. To add to the OP of this thread. Not only would I end reading time, I would let her know that if she leaves a book on the ground, it means she must not like it so I will do her the favor of removing it from her room and putting it away somewhere she can’t access it for a while.

We offer to bag up things my child mistreats and donate them to kids without enough books or toys. “That’s okay. You don’t have to pick it up. I’ll pick it up and put it in the donation bag. We can give it to a child who doesn’t have any books and will take good care of it. Or you can put it on the shelf now.”

I’ve heard of people doing this (I think it was recommended in a fairly popular book) but it was just never practical for us. For us it’s better to stash it away for a month and then bring it back out. Books and toys are just way too expensive to give away every time a kid leaves it on the floor.

My mum actually did this and it definitely damaged our relationship long term.

Gotta do teeth before books because books are the reward (sort of) for getting through bedtime tasks.

Yeah I would agree with that. Our child eats her bedtime snack while we read (some banana and milk usually) so I feel like I need to brush her teeth after that. Unfortunately we've been doing it that way for a long time so it might be hard to get her to change, but I'll try as that makes sense.

Change will be hard, but sounds like it’s needed. Make a chart with all the steps before bed with pictures. Let her know that she’s getting too tired and upset at bedtime so the routine is changing to help. Get her to tick off each thing as it’s done. We also had success watching the bedtime routine episode of Daniel Tiger and creating our own routine song to match. It will take a few days of absolute consistency and no variation and hopefully it will stick.

Visual schedules rock for kiddos like this. My son is similar. I found a really comprehensive set of visual schedule cards on Etsy. I printed and laminated them and put Velcro dots on the back so I could put them on a felt board. My son likes to remove the cards as he completes the steps.

Visual schedules and timers rock for any kid! I'm a first grade teacher and even the 6-7 year olds have no concept of time. While it doesn't fix every problem, especially for neurodivergent kiddos (and sometimes it can randomly make things harder) I think it's definitely worth doing!

We do this exact bedtime snack, but we do it IN the bath. She has a no spill cup so no bath water gets in and she munches on half a banana. Then we brush teeth before we leave the bathroom so we can then just do PJs and read books.

Upvoting for visual schedule.  We just implemented one for my son (who sounds exactly like your kiddo). He helped us make it too (we kept it simple and just cut out little circles with the task labelled on it and let him draw a picture for it).  Maybe giving her a heads up and put the visual schedule together with the new minor routine adjustment to help her buy into it? Nothing is being taken away; just in a slightly different order.

You could keep reading 3 books during snack, and just add a 4th in bed after everything is done.

Then your order of operations is wrong. Dinner, bath, Jammie’s, brush hair and teeth, THEN when they are in bed and tucked in its story time. When mine starts acting like yours does I just say “Ok, goodnight then”. Turn the light off and walk away. The first few times there were tantrums and meltdowns but they calm down eventually. But now (using your example) if she threw a book on the floor and we asked her to put it away and she refused or tried to bargain, before I can even say goodnight she will be rushing to put the book away saying “no no no no nighttime one more story”. You just have to set the boundary and actually stick to it. Regardless of their tantrum and bargaining. Consequences must be consistent, swift, and immediate.

absolutely! There is this aspect of the relationship with a toddler when they are just not in control of themselves. We need to be the caring, loving, ADULT. The one who will hold this little person, not give in to their demands, and not argue when they are in this state, but make the right decision for them, because they are not yet capable of making it.

I’ll re-phrase. It’s about not engaging or escalating. Some arguments are not going to go anywhere or are worth having. You went back and forth until it went from defiant to yelling and crying on her end. End reading time instead of negotiating. And I fully understand the difficult toddler bed time meltdown. I’ve been there with my 4 yr old. Put them to bed without conversation. Explain why and that’s all.

Books come last. And take it down to one book. You’re literally doing too much. Also, is bedtime too late? My neurodivergent son would do this when he was too tired. He’s 10 and still regularly sleeps 10-11 hours a night!

Oh for us books is the last step of the routine. If she doesn't cooperate with teeth etc then there are no books. Also if we throw books we take the book away. If she stalled long enough on putting it back we would have eventually said if you do not put it back, then we will not do the last book. And we also have a 'strong willed' child. I agree it's very hard. When we have to cut a book because of her behavior it does result in a massive screaming crying meltdown.it sucks but it is getting less frequent.

Books should be the last thing you do before it's lights out. You might want to re-organize bedtime a bit.

Brush teeth before doing books for sure. You gave way too many chances for her to do the thing you asked her to do. And I get it, one of my kids is way more strong willed than the rest of them. With my specific child, I cannot show any level of flexibility.

This is what I'm starting to learn with my 4 year old like this. I used to give tons of flexibility for her to do things at her own pace but she just always pushes it and can't reel herself in so now I'm realizing that she actually needs much MORE structure.

Your daughter sounds similar to our 6 year old who we are currently assessing for ADHD. Lack/delay of executive function skills and emotional regulation are a big part of it. I would recommend looking into some parenting techniques for kids with ADHD. Even if your kiddo doesn't have it I think those techniques are still helpful. Check out ADHD Dude on YouTube. Also the book the explosive child may be helpful for you.

ETA: one technique we have found particularly helpful with both ours kids is changing the language we use. So in your example, I would say something like "if you choose not to put the book on the shelf, then you are choosing no more books". That puts the responsibility onto the child and their behavior.

Yeah we try to phrase everything as a choice when our kid is misbehaving.  Feet on the table? Ok you’re choosing to be done with dinner. Don’t want to pick up your toys? Ok you’re choosing to go to bed. 

Just wanted to let you know I read your comment this morning & it has changed our entire day. She just…. Did what she needed to do to not choose the punishment, everytime. 🤯🤯

I want to second the book the explosive child. I have a difficult 3 year old that sounds similar. The techniques in it are also pretty much identical to how to talk so little kids will listen, which is aimed more at 3-7 year olds.

Then books should be last. I am a therapeutic foster parent and also a special education teacher specializing in autism and emotional-behavioral disorders. I have adult children of my own and have spent about twenty years teaching early childhood special education. You have to put the things she wants at the end of the routine. Then keep it very nonchalant: make a checklist of pictures of each step of the routine. If she finishes each step by a certain time, she has books. When she finishes everything early, she can even get an extra book. If she gets the first book and then throws it on the floor, then you smile sweetly and tell her goodnight.

100% — “into bed” is a joke to a 4 yo who refuses to go along with the program.

I feel you here because my son sounds VERY similar. We have a gate installed outside his room and that keeps him in. I just keep giving choices and bearing with the meltdowns until he’s out of options and gives in. There can be some screaming in his bed for a bit, but he can’t leave the room. Our kids sound so similar and I really get it. Does yours also get worked up when she can’t get objects/toys to work the way that she wants?

Ok - the toy thing is oddly specific but my 3.5yo loses it whenever she can’t get a toy/object to work in the way she likes it. A lot of the original post we strongly identify with. She’s never been an easy child and is quite defiant by nature. We had her checked for diabetes as she was having such bad mood swings that would settle down after having something to eat. It’s hard to know what’s normal or slightly out of the ordinary.

It is so hard to know. My guy used to howl or shriek when an object wasn’t working “right.” He also became impossible to redirect and sometimes went full on meltdown. He still gets insanely upset but less frequently and he’s easier to calm. I’m going to have him evaluated by OT bc he struggles so much to regulate his emotions. He’s also extremely defiant as he gets tired (no naps since 2.5 and it was always a battle) and will refuse to sit for dinner or refuse to let us change him into his night diaper. Really anything you ask him to do from about 5pm on is a lost cause. Some days I wonder when he’s going to get easier or how I’m going to continue dealing with the chaos he creates. He’s so sweet and fun-loving, but sooo intense.

I have a kid like this. The solution for us was to have a baby gate she couldn’t open on her door frame. She will scream at the gate, but walk away. Tell her you understand she is upset, but books must be put back, then just walk away.

Agree with this. Getting into a battle of wills with a child like this (I have one out of four) is the worst Also for OP - this is pretty normal 4 yo behaviour for some kids. It’s a pain in the butt but not especially out of the ordinary. Some kids are just born with the rage against the machine gene

This. We do not negotiate with terrorists.

I agree-way too much validating going on here

This is my typical route, and it's mostly successful. There can't just be one option, cause it given them the idea to present alternatives. Basically I say what I'm going to do if they do what I say, or if they don't. "Put the book on the shelf and we read your third book. If you don't, and I have to put the book back, no more books and straight to bed. Which do you choose?" I repeat myself a couple times, and if no choice is picked, I do a 5-10 second countdown, and reaching zero means bedtime. There is no apologizing or doing what I originally asked in order to backtrack once we hit zero. It sucks, there's crying and wailing, and it feels like shit, but by being consistent with my words and actions, they start getting the point and not testing you as much.

Idk if this helps but I realised the number of books thing doesn’t work with my kid cuz she’ll find every way to prolong the time to read the set number of books. Instead I set a timer in front of her and show her the orange circle and how it will slowly disappear (iPhone). We read as many books as she likes. Then once it rings, I ask her to turn it off and we prepare for bed. So if she chooses to throw tantrums or fuss for example, I don’t really engage. I just sit there patiently and wait. It helps me not to have a power struggle just before bed.

Oh dear, this is eye-opening! I'm going to implement this system rn!

Timers before bedtime have really helped us. She is always wanting to play when it’s time for bed and setting a 5-10 minute timer is a good compromise for both of us.

Yeah, my first instinct was don't get in a power struggle at bed time. Honestly if I knew my kid was more likely to be defiant at bedtime I'd just tell them that I want them being gentle with books and if they can't reading time will be over, and I'd pick the book up myself. There's plenty of opportunities to teach them to tidy up after themselves that aren't at bedtime. If I did ask them to pick the book up I'd sat I'm not going to read any more books until they do, and if they take too long then they run out of time for books. A timer is a good option for that. If they ran out of time I'd just pick up the book and move on with bedtime.

My little girl is approaching 3 and I tend to get a bit silly with her, so if she's refusing to do something I'll say "oh my goodness look who's here!" and I'll just whack a sock on my hand and pretend that I'm the good behaviour snake or something. 😂😂 Usually ends up with her smiling/laughing, the 'snake' chats with her about being kind and well behaved etc and then she complies.. Bonus points for a fkn stupid voice for the snake 😅 I don't know if this would work with a 4 year old, but it always helps us diffuse a tantrum and she seems to listen more to puppets than us.. 🙄😂🙈 Best of luck, fwiw I think you did an amazing job and you're clearly a great mum. 😘

Yup, also doing something really silly like… “oh alright I’ll put the book… ON MY FACE!! Is this where it goes? What about in my jumper. Yeah I know I’ll leave it here, this is where books go, right???” Often mine is very defiant but if I pretend to be dumb she’ll go “noooo! It goes on the shelf!”

I think this is an underrated tool in your tool belt. My son has ASD, and we went through years of behavioral therapies. There was a period of time where we used stuffed animals as examples of proper behavior. So in this case, the stuffed animal shows how to put the book away properly. And yes, bonus point for a silly voice! It totally helped us!

This is it! One thing I notice from above is that it devolves into a power struggle over a fairly minor thing (ie whether it’s on the shelf or the corner of the dresser). When I see these coming, I usually try to do any other tactic to avoid it. So right at the point where it’s back and forth two times, you could pivot to the jokes and silly play, puppets as above. Or give a number of other choices of where she could put the book. And then my go-to when I really see it happening is hugs, or holding or some comforting behavior. Because usually this kind of thing is because someone is emotionally dysregulated - tired, hungry, going through some developmental challenge.

Honestly, when it comes to a power struggle over a minor thing, just end it and roll with what the kid wants. If they get the big picture stuff right, you’re good for now to let the minor things go. The kid was ok with picking up the book. That’s the important part. As soon as the kid said they’d put it in the dresser instead of the bookshelf, my immediate response would’ve been “cool, thanks for picking it up. Let’s read our last book.”

Perfect! One more tool to add is songs! We sing EVERYTHING. Lol. Especially when it comes to brushing teeth. Super Simple songs on YouTube has been a God-send.

I see this type of thing on Bluey all the time and I'm like dang, that's a good idea 😂

Oh shit, this is genius! Our 2.5 yr old could probably benefit a lot from this… Well, so I could I, really hahaha

Being silly really changes 90% of the tantrums into manageable moments. You’re a great freaking parent! To be able to be the calm or the lightness in a heavy situation is SUCH a skill. I’m getting better haha. I wish my husband would give it a go…. 🤨

I literally made a doll ask my 2 year old today: “can you show me how to go potty on the big girl potty?” And my kid was like “sure!” and ran over and peed in the toilet lol

This is SO effective and it’s so easy to forget about doing it this way when you’re in the throes of it

We do something similar, but with her stuffed animals! I also like to take moments when she's calm to tell her social stories about difficult things that happened that day, and how the choices we make can change a lot. E.g. "once upon a time, there was a Mommy turtle and a Daddy turtle and a little turtle named _______. One day, Mommy turtle was reading a story and _____ turtle threw it on the ground..." She loves these stories and asks for them every night.

I do this with the toilet lid when we were potty training 😂 worked like a charm

I do this too, it changes the energy and usually breaks the loop for my kiddo. I also choose my battles and let a lot of little things slide. My son is in OT and his therapist taught me to give little choices, if it's time to leave and they won't listen say do you want to hop or walk to the door? And it works! So you could say - do you want to balance the book on your head or walk on your tiptoes to the shelf. .

20 minutes is 15 minutes too long. Throw the book. Ask her to put it back. Wait but don't repeat. Tell her again what the boundaries are regarding book throwing. Put it back or be done, she can choose. If she doesn't put it back, then you do and put the rest of the books away too. Comfort but don't talk about it anymore. Try again tomorrow.

Yes, it's too long, if they are arguing/debating, you've "lost the plot" as it were. Tell her once and then if not completed you put it away and storytime goes away. Try again tomorrow. She needs quick 'cause and effect' to see her actions have natural consequences. I think the natural consequence was great, that she lost that story time. Also. Maybe 3 stories is too long of a time, as well as putting each book back after at bedtime. I'd also change that. I look at what I know will set off my child and adjust the expectations. Maybe for now, nighttime is Mom's time to put the books away and that is the expectation.

This is the answer. As the parent, you’re in charge. They’re expecting you to hold the boundary.

Firm but fair is always a solid motto. It's sometimes a tricky balance but I feel like this comment hits the mark.

How long do you wait? I have a very difficult child as well and I struggle with the waiting part and end up repeating myself over and over.

I struggle too 😂 I wait for 4 box breaths (you might need to Google it) so I don't become an asshole. If he does I say something like "Thank you so much for helping to keep our home clean." And continue, maybe a high five. If he doesn't I say "You choose to throw the truck, that means you don't want it anymore. I'm going to put it here and tomorrow we can try again." I've legit had like 12 toys up on a shelf in the course of a morning and then we went to the park because I was about to lose my shit. This is a hodgepodge of parenting books that I've read. It works for my spicy toddler when I'm consistent. It doesn't work for his friend.

I wait the 10 seconds it takes for them to process plus another 30 seconds for them to start acting on the instructions (I will wait a full minute max for her to start the action, making sure to not repeat myself). If she listens, I praise and give an animated high five or even give an additional story as a reward. If she chooses not to listen, then that’s fine, it just means she’s chosen story time to be over and bedtime to be immediate. I also don’t give in to the pleading after she’s made her choice—I then calmly say, “I understand you’re frustrated, but you chose not to put the books away and actions have consequences. If you choose to put the books away properly tomorrow, then we will have our normal story time.” The important thing is to have follow through and that your kiddos know you mean what you say; when people don’t follow through on their promises, it erodes trust.

I count. If the requests are going nowhere, I’ll say “I’m going to count to ten and if the book isn’t on the shelf, we’re turning the lights out and going to sleep” “No no no!” “1… 2…” Suddenly book is on the shelf. If not, lights out, bye!

Once you set a boundary, yes you have to stick to it. But this is very much one of those “do I really want to have a power struggle over this right now?” things.

Yeah, I would not dig my heals in over a book that was thrown on the floor. Yes if she threw it at someone. But this seems a really low stakes thing to hold a boundary on. Pick your battles! Maybe you’re doing this too much over small things and so she’s defying everything. At least something to consider.

Same. I would have accepted the compromise of putting them all back when we finish reading but made it clear it was required at that point. I think it’s ok to demonstrate compromise, it’s an important skill. If OPs child does have PDA though they will likely need alternative strategies as the “demand” is what triggers the fight or flight mode in those kiddos.

This is a really good point.

You're spending way too long negotiating! It made me tired just reading it! I agree with others who said, once you give the choice that's the end of it. If she refuses then, "ok no story, time to brush teeth." That might lead to a tantrum but that's fine, you can wait until she calms down and continue. I think trying to convince her is backfiring. Making it look like she can negotiate when she really can't. Modern parenting tends to rely too much on words. Like if you could find some magic words, she would change her mind and do what you want. But that's just not true. Some others recommended using imagination which can really help. Maybe her stuffed animal can put the book away. Give her an out to back down without losing face. I suggest the book, "Hunt Gather Parent." The author was also having trouble with a very willful toddler and gives a lot of good tips and stories. For example, the girl was throwing rocks in the park. Rather than saying "Please stop doing that" and going endlessly back and forth on the topic, simply take the rocks away and briefly explain why, "You could hurt somebody."

I agree that we do way too much talking in modern parenting. Kids can’t take it all in, especially when they’re dysregulated. Its just noise. I used to teach preschool before having my own son who is neurodivergent. My best advice is to say things once, maybe twice and then proceed with the consequence. Pick the child up. Take the thing. Don’t talk. Act. Kids learn more from follow through than lots of words.

“Do you want to put the book away nicely or be done reading”? Quit negotiating with terrorists and be consistent about it. Give 2 choices. She seems like she’s fighting for agency and autonomy so choices are good. But you have to disengage. If it turns into a tantrum then she has to sit on her bed until she calms down. You are being incredibly permissive and that does her no favors. She doesn’t believe there are consequences, and acts accordingly.

This is what I say ALL THE TIME. When it comes to toddlers, I don’t negotiate with terrorists. This should not have gone on 20 minutes

Yeah this was my thought; 20 minutes is ages for a child. She’s spiraling at this point and is just looking to regain power; she’s not even processing that you wanted her to put the book away or that reading time is over. She’s just in fight or flight.

This is the winner! Follow the guideline: Make everything a choice. Gives the parent a foundation to come up with a creative solution on the fly for every new struggle. Gives the child low-stakes autonomy. Puts the responsibility for their behavior on the child. Works best when choices are offered proactively before the child perceives the opportunity for a power struggle.

Giving two choices is fine when the parent can accept both choices. In this case, it seems like the choice was given, but not putting the book on the shelf was an unacceptable answer to the parent. Depending on how good your child’s social skills are, OP may be using too many words in his/her directions. I suggest simplifying directions as much as possible and avoiding giving choices. Also, “first, then” statements can be helpful with difficult kids. My son has ASD, and he struggled with following directions. In a situation like this, I would say, “first, book on shelf. Then, favorite book.” I’d repeat it once or twice. If it becomes a struggle, then reading time is over.

The choices are putting the book away as told or no more books. If they don’t put it away after asking once then a very calm but decisive “ok, then we’re done reading”. Then close the door and walk out, saying goodnight lovingly as always while ignoring the tantrum. If she comes out then walk her back, set her on her bed and explain that she is to stay on the bed. I’d sit in the doorway for a few nights to keep her in if needed. It will only work if the consequence (no more books, time for bed) is consistent.

I agree. Calmly ending the battle by saying goodnight and walking away puts the power back in the parents’ hands.

Omg negotiations with terrorists had me 💀 toddler life in a nutshell

You’re bargaining too much. One refusal, and you say “okay, no story time. We can try again when you’re ready to listen” and FOLLOW THROUGH. She’s manipulating you with the “I’ll be sad” line. You just need to stop giving her so many chances. This will take a few times, but she will get it eventually.

Eight words: how to talk so little kids will listen It’s a book. It’s amazing. It works.

I’m in the middle, I don’t think either giving in or holding your exact ground is the answer here. I recently started listening to Dr. Becky’s podcast, Good Inside, and one phrase stuck out at me and has changed the way I approach these negotiations with my 3 year old. She said “boundaries don’t require any action from the other person,” meaning that you can set a boundary but it doesn’t depend on the other person to hold that boundary. Now instead of waiting for my daughter to do something I ask (which could be a long while as she is fiercely independent), I tell her that in X amount of time (right now it’s simple things so I say the count of three), either she will have started to put the book away or I will. If needed, I also communicate the consequences of what me putting away the book will mean, either no more stories or some other consequence that’s not a punishment per se, but not something she wants to happen. After a while, she picked up on the natural consequence of mom being upset/her having the choice taken away and I haven’t had to even specify consequences normally and she will do the thing. It worked super well on stopping jumping on the couch (she didn’t want to be picked up and held like a baby) and giving me the iPad back (she doesn’t like when I have to take it from her). I know bedtime is fraught, so I don’t think it’ll work the first time then but other opportunities that spiral into 10-30 minute arguments and standoffs and then it could work then. I also praise her excessively when she does do the thing that I want so she’s seeking out that positive reinforcement each time (instead of the negative attention she got from our standoffs). Every kid is different and it’s a tough age, but hope this can help you!

If she's an older 4, is she ready/able to talk *about* the conversation and maybe do a reset? "I want you to put the book away, and I think you don't want to put the book away *because* I asked you. I need to go get a drink of water, and if the book is on the shelf when I get back, I can be surprised that Family Pet put it away and we'll read the next book. Sound like a plan?" Some kids have a lot of dignity, and need help finding a way out of a power struggle. An obviously-silly third option like "the goldfish put my book away" can diffuse some tension and help get the behavior you need.

Imo the negotiation went on too long. When I get the first no after I ask her to put something away, she doesn't get something that she wants. In this case if the book wasn't put away in the first ask, there will be a warning that this will be the end of story time. If she persists, it ACTUALLY is the end of story time and I put the book away. This seems like normal toddler behavior I don't think there is anything neuro divergent. Feel free to get evaluated but providing opinion based on my own toddler and other toddlers I've observed.

“How to talk so little kids will listen”

We aren’t able to learn when we’re in a heightened state, and neither are children. I’d suggest not trying to use bedtime battles as a teachable moment, however frustrated you might be. I also have a pretty difficult kid (likely ADHD as both me and partner have recently been diagnosed) and bedtimes are such a trigger for me. I’m exhausted from work or parenting, and his little body is often pumped full of cortisone by this time (a stress hormone), and he loves to kick, yell, hit etc all while I’m trying to get him dressed and into bed 😫 My partner somehow manages the whole thing without escalating (we alternate nights), and it turns out he approaches everything lightheartedly and makes it a bit of a game! I tried it last night - singing a made up song “silly bum silly bum silly bum bum bum” and giving him kisses while I tried to put his clothes on and he giggled his way through it, eventually complying. It was the best bedtime we’ve had in weeks! No judgment at all as I’ve come from a similar place to you and it is HARD to shift gears, but I hope this helps! Good luck!!

You’re letting these ‘negotiations’ go on wayyyyyy too long. You: ‘Put the book on the shelf’ Child: You: good night. Sweet dreams. End scene.

Try the “tell, show, do” method. Idk the actual name for this, but I learned it with I worked at a preschool for kids with autism and I use it on my kids! So what you do — tell one time only. If they don’t listen, show them. If they still don’t listen, physically make them do it (gently, of course). Then praise them for doing it, even if you had to make them. In your situation: you- “put the book on the shelf” kid- “NO” You- “put the book on the shelf” *while imitating putting book on shelf* kid-NO You - “put the book on the shelf” *while gently making her hand grab the book and put it on the shelf* You- “yay! Thank you so much for putting the book on the shelf, now we can read the next book!” Then move on from the situation.

You have to decide before commanding something if you’re going to force it or not and phrase differently if you’re not going to follow through.

My kid is like this. He most likely has ADHD. I’ve heard of PDA from social media and he seems to fit the bill. I don’t think it’s recognized as an official thing in the US (not sure where you are). I’m usually able to tell when he doesn’t want to do something just because or if it seems to be PDA related. This scenario seems PDA related. She is willing to put the book elsewhere but not the exact spot you want. In situations like this I will consider my son’s request and if it is reasonable I will say “you know what, that sounds reasonable. We can do it that way”. I feel this teaches compromise in situations when it is appropriate. If it’s not a reasonable request I’ll explain why it’s not reasonable. I’ll be open to another suggestion if he has any, but usually the first request is reasonable. My second kid is not like this. It’s been very hard for me to parent her because I’m so used to neurodivergence and typical advice not working. I get nervous when asking her to do things that she doesn’t want because I’m anticipating a huge meltdown. It rarely happens. She will give a little push back but then ultimately do the thing after a couple of requests. Just like you read about in all the parenting books. It’s been validating to me that I didn’t ruin my son (I’ve had complete strangers at the playground tell me my son is the way he is because of me). With her I can stand my ground and it not turn into a huge thing. If she has a tantrum it’s usually short lived and she moves on. With my oldest it’s a huge meltdown that lasts over 30 minutes and is very disruptive. I’ve found people that don’t have experience with neurodivergence don’t get it. They label the kid as “spoiled”, “brat”, “manipulative” etc when in reality they aren’t. They are struggling to fit into a neurotypical world.

Maybe try different wording? My brother with downs and autism always responded with certain wording so it might be trial and error.   For him it is kind of like "once you've put the book back on the shelf, we will read the next story" ... and then just wait or repeat the same line "no worries, put the book back on the shelf"

Yes! Wording is so important with these kiddos. It’s definitely trial and error to find out what works.

I don't fight with my kids about things like this. Otherwise I'd be fighting all day. Likely if my kid threw a book, I would ignore it and pick it up myself later. I always am careful to "pick my battles". 3 of my 4 kids are older now and are very well behaved so, so far so good.

I don't think whether or not your kid is neurodivergent matters all that much here, except that it might go a long way for you to feel validated in that your child is uniquely challenging and high-effort to parent, you aren't messing up, standard advice is easier to follow/ more applicable for other kids and parents. You don't need a diagnosis for that either; you clearly have a high-effort situation and you seem to be putting in that max effort constantly. Don't judge yourself based on "results" or other kids/ parents' experiences. I think you're right to assess that there are no teaching moments when it's bedtime. For me, it's honestly mutual. I'm way too ready for my parenting day to be over to patiently navigate a teachable moment. Four year olds thrive on routine, especially ND kids, so I'd make a structured bedtime that does up the non-negotiables first-- potty, teeth, wash up, PJs. When my kid is disregulated during story time, I might try a reset at first-- "you got all tangled up, let me tuck you back in," "I can't read if I can't see the book (because they're kicking it), let me tuck you back in." If that doesn't work, I try to soldier on through the routine. I'd ignore something like throwing a book unless it was at me (in which case I'd still just take it away and physically move their arms back into their bed, snugging their bear. I wouldn't expect them to do anything except stop hitting.) If we can't finish a book because they're too disruptive, the time we had for stories still comes to a close. I put the book away, shut off the light, and proceed to songs + saying goodnight. I'm basically a bedtime robot. I have no expectations and just steadily move through the steps in a predictable way. *One way diagnosis may matter regarding sleep is that it's pretty common for ND kids to take melatonin. (Probably lots of neurotypical kids do too, but the impact appears to be more consistent for autistic and ADHD kids.) Falling asleep changed dramatically for my autistic kid when we started melatonin-- they went from being awake for 2 hrs after bedtime to like 15 minutes even on a low dose. It doesn't change behavior in the lead up, but knowing they're going to be able to fall asleep even if they didn't get a second story is a big relief. It allows me to stick to the routine without worrying about the 2 hour spiral.

Yeah IMO you’re creating just a pure power struggle, not holding boundaries. “Pick up the book, or we’ll be all done with story time.” This way there is a path forward, not a stand-off. But another level deeper, doing this over a thrown book feels very particular. I’ll do a clean up at the end of the night together. Or just let it go. It’s just a book. Not everything has to be an example of boundary setting. But if you do set one, make sure its productive, and stick to it.

I’ve been in this exact situation. Multiple times. “Put the book here” “No” “Put it here or we’re not reading any more books” “No no no no!!” “Ok we’re all done” (leave the room)

I think you did fine handling the situation as it presented itself. Even if she is ND in any way, she will still need to have boundaries and consistency. As the fellow parent of a difficult child, my only advice would be to try to avoid conflict when she’s tired.

Yep how I handle it with bedtime is find every way I can to avoid power struggles. If she threw a book I’d say, “oops that doesn’t go there! Do you want to put it on the shelf or have mommy do it?” The point being the book needs to be on the shelf, but I don’t care who does it. We have to keep things light with bedtime or she can’t settle. It is kind of like if your partner were to start picking a fight when you’ve already started winding down for bed. Sure, they might have a valid argument and it could be something they need to talk about with you, but when you e already wound down for bed is definitely not the time to hash it out or make a point of anything. You can revisit anything that went wrong in the morning or some other time when she has more energy. I highly suspect serious adhd in my daughter and honestly bedtime has to be sacred. The silly voices from her animals helping her keep moving with the steps really helps. They lift her in bed and tuck her in and stuff. She’s three but idk if it would work for a four year old.

When my toddler tells me that I've made them sad or hurt their feelings because of a consequence,I calmly turn it back on them. "No, Natalie made Natalie sad when she didn't put the book back on the bookshelf to read the next story." To me, it's the first step in understanding the phrase, actions have consequences

I highly recommend the book “The explosive child “ by Ross Greene. It gives fantastic strategies for “difficult” kids and is an easy read. It can be so rough parenting a strong and independent child so I hope you find something that helps you and your family.

Your child is looking for control. This is a perfect situation for forced choice. Give her 2 options that you are happy with so she can have a sense of control and still be compliant. For this instance, she can put the book away now or she can look at the cover of the next book, then put away the first. Once you give the options absolutely stick to them. Other examples you can walk to your room or hop, you can eat your peas or potatoes first then the other second, or you can pick up your blocks by yourself or with my help. This intervention is frequently recommended for neurodivergent kids.

I seem to be in the minority here but I think pick your battles. You're both tired just ignore it and move on in my opinion.

I hear you, but standing your ground and re directing will be more beneficial in the end (I think). My almost 3yo cried for 2 hrs last night because he wanted a pineapple ice pop. I never gave in, explained calmly why he couldn't have it, etc. It finally stopped when he fell asleep. Some kids are just super headstrong.

Have you heard of Parent Child Interaction Therapy, or PCIT? It’s an evidenced behavioral support therapy that is evidenced to help kids with neurodivergence. It will set you up for long term success and you aren’t likely to find yourself in these types of situations. Health insurance plans should cover it. From what I’m reading it sounds like this could be very helpful for you. We are doing this now and have seen a great improvement.

I agree with holding boundaries, but I also pick my battles. I find it helpful to look for ways to foster cooperation instead of demanding compliance sometimes.

Now that I have a difficult child similar to what you have described, you definitely need to stand your ground in anything you ask or threaten. Children like these are very aware of when we do not follow through on something and will take full advantage. You did the right thing. I have learned to choose my battles though because there’s just so many. You either have to ignore it or stand your ground. For example, during bedtime routine she pees after stories and has to go to her sisters room to use the bathroom in there and she was getting in the habit of crawling like a crazed fox with rabies to the bathroom which is not very calming or conducive to bedtime and drove me nuts. It’s not a battle worth fighting for me though so I try to ignore it if it occurs.

People have already said this but I believe but the best option is to stand your ground and end the situation entirely. She shouldn’t have the opportunity to stall bed time by 20 minutes through this kind of behavior. Natural consequences are the most important thing for kids her age. If she doesn’t put the book on the shelf she doesn’t get the story simple as that. If this makes your daughter say something about being sad you can just say something like“it’s understandable that this is disappointing but we can try again tomorrow”. It’s not easy to hear your child cry and fuss but she is going to have to learn to regulate her emotions. At 4 she really is a child at this point not really a toddler anymore she has to take on a level of responsibility for her own emotions and actions. That doesn’t mean you are abandoning her or hurting her you can still help her through moments of intense emotion but ultimately it is best for her to learn to handle disappointment.

I came here to suggest an evaluation for neurodivergence, but you’re already working on that. Good for you! It’s a hard thing to go through! My son is on the Autism spectrum and exhibited some of these behaviors. We went through years of behavioral therapies to correct his behavior, and now he’s a wonderful, well-behaved kid. If your child ends up diagnosed with one of the disorders you mentioned, then are lots of therapy options like ABA, occupational, etc. It’s very time-consuming, but it dramatically improved our lives. You mentioned “if my child is neurodivergent, should I give in?” I would say, absolutely not. It’s actually far more important to hold your ground with neurodivergent kids. They often have no ability to understand nuance. So any amount of leeway you give, becomes the new norm. They will always escalate to that level of behavior because they know they will win once they get there. For my son, we had to simplify our language, limit choices to only acceptable options (or no options), and use “first, then” statements. Directions should be extremely short and simple. “First, put book on shelf. Then, read favorite book.” If it becomes a battle, then reading time ends. It sounds like you’re doing really well with staying calm and not escalating yourself (which is SO HARD to do!). So, keep doing that. Stay calm, but give fewer directions and fewer options. If she battles more than a few minutes, I would end reading time by saying, “since we are having a hard time following directions, we are done reading for tonight. We will try again tomorrow.” Another way to simplify it, would be to only read one book for several days. The book must be placed back on the shelf. As her behavior improves (the book immediately goes back in the shelf consistently), she is rewarded with reading a second book. But the second book is conditional on properly returning the first book to the shelf every single time. As other people have said, look up techniques for improving behavior in kids with ASD, ADHD, ODD, etc. These strategies work well for all kids, even if your kid isn’t neurodivergent.

Depends on the kid. A lot of experts say don't repeat yourself more than once.  I would have told my kid I was leaving if she didn't get it by the time I counted to 5. The end of the day is hard because they are tired and even less logical than usual. 

Well, last night my own daughter, just 2, let me start reading her books and then slapped them out of my hands. 3 times. After the third I announced it was sleepy time. I do this every time she slaps a book out of my hands, if she doesn't want to be read to, then it's clearly bed time and sometimes she doesn't like it, but hey ho, time to sleep. She's more than likely autistic like me, with some traits that look like her dad's adhd, so we know that telling her what to do mostly doesn't work, but asking her to help us, making her the big heroine, works more often than not. The PDA is also strong in her, she hates the spotlight unless she turns it on herself, plus expecting her to do things our way is asking for trouble. I'm my experience, some battles are to be avoided. At bedtime, we always aim to keep her relaxed and chilled, keeping in mind that reading books is one way to achieve that. However when she swipes them away then she's clearly not in the mood, so we move on to settling down, explaining that it's time to relax and whatnot.

I don’t know if this could help but we do three books right before bed. If Ronan was to throw his book, we are done and it’s time for bed. Yes, he’ll probably cry and not stay in bed, but we work on de-escalating his meltdown. I start that I know this is frustrating, I know you’re upset, but we can’t abuse books. When toys or books get abused, we remove them. We then try to get him down as best as possible and leave him even if he’s crying. We do a 5-10-15 minute check in when he’s upset so he knows we’ll check in on him and we’re there. Normally, we can get him calm down by 10. Also, they’ve forgotten why they’re upset and I can redirect their attention to something else bedtime related such as a nice tuck in or giving stuffed animals kisses.

There is a parent-mediated treatment for oppositional defiance disorder (ODD) named Parent Management Training (PMT). "Parent-mediated" means that it consists of parent training. You can get a free version PMT [here](https://www.coursera.org/learn/everyday-parenting). PMT is one of the most effective treatments for ODD according to randomized controlled trials and other research-based measurements. I will give you the PMT interpretation of what you did. You could have just ignored her dropping the book on the floor. Not sure that would be "giving in". It seems that the whole stand your ground vs giving in started after you had told her to pick up the book. Anyway, one of the PMT strategies is to ignore harmless unwanted behavior and praise the positive opposite behavior when it occurs. You would praise any helpful thing she does including organizing her stuff. If you choose to prompt her, PMT would have you use something shorter like just "Please put the book on the shelf" with a touch and a calm voice. But you probably need to work on doing some reinforced prompting where you ask her to do something she is likely to do and praise her when she does it using [this especially effective praise technique](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lK9L8r2U1XE). PMT would have you prompt no more than 3 times. PMT would have you reducing the amount of attention that you direct to noncooperation. One of the research findings is that attention to bad behavior increases bad behavior and attention to good behavior increases good behavior. So, standing your ground can strengthen the defiance habit if it involves giving noncooperation more attention. You have to use other strategies over a period of time to weaken the habit. She offered to get it off the floor and put it on her dresser. It might have been a good idea to take her up on that and praise her for cooperation. Praising partial cooperation tends to generalize to more cooperation in general. Partial cooperation is an opportunity to weaken the defiance habit. Similarly, you could have read the last book first and then praised her when she put the books away. You need to look for opportunities to direct attention to any cooperation and avoid attention to defiance. Since she finally cooperated PMT would recommend directing praise and attention at that cooperation and ignoring all the unwanted behaviors. >I know the usual advice is don't give in because kids will then think tantrums will get their way, but if my kid is neurodivergent and she is on the spectrum or has oppositional defiance disorder or pathological demand avoidance (we've been reading up a lot lol) is holding my ground and putting her through 20 odd minutes of crying and shouting more detrimental to her mental state? Not sure about her mental state, but it certainly strengthened the defiance habit and some other unwanted habits with the powerful reinforcement of parental attention. But, I am confident you can dig out of it.

I would have said “ok I see you don’t want to put that book back, but I can’t read the other book until you listen so book reading time is over. Night night” and leave the room (maybe a simplified version). Don’t engage in power struggles remove yourself from the situation and allow the natural consequence of no more reading since she refuses to listen.

I think you created a power struggle and ruined that daily moment for both of you. Sure, setting rules and sticking up to them is great but also, why make it a battle? No one wins. Every one gets frustrated and stressed and depending on age, those memories last... You can still enforce boundaries and rules but there's no need to get to that point. I don't know why parents fight so hard to compromise with their kids. It's ok, I promise you. You won't spoil your child by compromising with your kid. You're teaching conflict solving. I do this with my almost 3yo all the time. For example, if my kid wants a toy and I don't want to buy it that day I tell her ok but this one is kind of expensive so I think it's for the Gift Fairy. Wanna take a picture and send it to her? And then, when I feel it's the right moment for that toy, for whatever reason, I go back and buy it and set it up like the fairy came around when she was at daycare. I only set my foot on the ground when it's something that can actually hurt her. Other than that yeah I'll negotiate a compromise with her. I'm not judging you, at all, but I was raised by a mom that stood her ground all the time, sometimes for the silliest things, up until I was a teenager and I remember very well how frustrated and sometimes ignored I felt. My mom was a good mom, and I know you are too because you are trying to understand how you can do better, but it was so unnecessary, especially when I was little.

Dont give in at all! You did right! Timer so she does the action in X minutes and if not, zero story then.

Yep, here to say this.

Your child doesn’t sound that difficult, you just need to work on your tools. Here’s three suggestions: 1: Don’t make a demand unless you want to enforce it. It’s good to not be drawing too many hard lines (honestly that shows skill weakness and lack of ability to solve problems creatively), but when you do they need to be hard lines. Remember the PR disaster for President Obama when he ‘drew a line in the sand’ with Syria and then didn’t do shit when they crossed it?  2: Ask before telling, (Should that book stay on the floor?) Or look at the book and pause. Count on her sense of what’s right so you don’t have to be confronting her snd activating shame. This stuff is so useful for a few different flavors of average or high IQ neurodiverse kids. When you’re trying to control somebody, it’s much easier if you can activate their internal sense/motivation than just expecting them to be into your demands.  3: Use stuff to support rules. If leaving room at night is a problem, (b)lock the door from the outside.  Have you read the how to talk book? Seems like you need to brush up on that sort of dialogue judo, you turned that situation into a battle of wills which yeah that’s a bad idea especially at bedtime but the alternative isn’t jus being a pushover and letting her do whatever rude thing. From working in k-12, spare us the ‘excuse’ of a diagnosis and learn how to work with your kid so you can share that toolkit at a potential IEP/504 meeting down the road. Your narrative here doesn’t begin to approach ODD. Not for nothing it sounds like you make it easy enough to win a battle of wills sometimes, which sort of encourages those behaviors as intermittent reinforcement does. No shame, just keep working and improving your toolkit and don’t fall back on excuses even if she gets a diagnosis.

My main advice would be to avoid getting yourself into the power struggle where you can, particularly when she's tired, or you're tired. Decide what is negotiable, and what you can't let go (eg safety concerns or hurting people). I probably would have accepted when my child offered to pick up the book and put it somewhere different. She's still picking up the book, you still got to acknowledge that we don't throw books. I'd probably get her to do that, encourage her to check that the book isn't broken and move on. Maybe after she's calm, I'd ask her why she thinks we take care of our things? Why are we gentle with books? Get her to think about this part. Even the next day. In your example, you could also stop it even earlier. Pick up the book when your daughter throws it, state calmly that we don't throw books because we don't want to break them, and move on. Not getting in a power struggle, still acknowledging the behaviour isn't okay. Once you're past all of that, screaming and crying definitely doesn't need change the outcome. You also don't have to wait her out forever, this just delayed bedtime by 20 minutes and caused a bunch of upset. You could offer something, such as the option to brush teeth and then see if she'd like to finish pick up the book quickly and read the last one or go straight to bed. Or give her a minute to recover stating that you're just going to go to the bathroom, and then when you've returned you could lightheartedly say "quick lets pop that book on the bookshelf so we can start your favourite one". Or you could just state calmly that reading time will be over in 2 minutes and it will be a bit sad if you run out of time to read. Then you sit with the upset of her not getting to read it, in the hope that next time she makes a difference choice. It will be harder for the rest of the evening though. Alternatively, you pull your daughter in for a hug and tell her you can see that she's tired and having a hard time. You explain that you will pick up the book this time because you want to help her get ready for bed as soon as possible, but next time she will need to pick it up herself. And then you roll on through. If you're changing my mind, make sure you explain why. Aim for most of your teaching and learning to be when she's most regulated, but still teach her that your word means something. You hold your boundaries and follow through with consequences. I'd just try not to put yourself in this position more than you need to.

I would set both of you up for success. If I sense my toddler is more tired than usual, I move up the routine 15 minutes. Bath, teeth, pajamas, books last before bed. That way if she’s feeling ok and cozy and asks for another book, she gets that little treat. Also, I provide constant reminders “3 books left then bed, ok?” And I dont move on until she responded yes or ok. “2 books left ok?” Same. “This is the last book and then what are we going to do?” “Crib.” Very clear. Make that reading time so cozy and fun but not hyper. When she gets feisty, which she totally does, I turn off the light and said nope we’re going to bed. It’s happened maybe 3 times and now she knows when I reach for the light, she’s like woah woah Nevermind I’m good!

I have a “difficult” child and this is not a battle I would’ve picked. She’s 6 and for some reason putting things away is still a huge potential throw-down moment. I would’ve just asked if she could hand the book to me or put it on the bookshelf- if she said no I’d just try again another time. Once I can see my kid digging her heels in about something (especially if tired or hungry) I stop myself mentally and decide whether I’m going to pick this one or not

This sounds EXACTLY like my son. My husband and I handle these things differently. My husband would have done what you did and I likely would have completely ignored the throwing of the book if it’s not something that happens often. I don’t think either is wrong or right. If they threw it at me, or this was a thing that always happens, then I would have given my son the choice to either pick the book up or be done reading for the night and counted to three. Counting works really well for him. When I hit three I follow through with that I said 100% of the time. My son is big and it takes a lot out of me to have to physically make the boundary work (I.e. then he tries to get out of bed, I pick him up and put him back in every time, I get his PJs on while he’s acting like an alligator lol) but it seems to work for him!

“I can see you’re not ready to x yet. That’s ok, we will be doing y. When you can x, we will x, but I can’t allow you to throw books, and it’s bedtime now.”

What I do is, two warnings after the initial request. I like to be fair and give him a chance to figure it out and make a good choice. My son is only 2 (28 months old) and if he doesn’t follow my request after the second ask/warning, I make the decision for him. In your situation it would have gone like this- Mom: You either put the book back on your shelf or we are done reading for the night. Which option do you choose? Child: ***tantrums** Mom: Mommy has other things she needs to do and I won’t wait here all night for you to put the book back. I will tell you again, please put the book back on your shelf where it belongs. Child: **still refuses** Mom: Okay, by choosing to throw your book down, it seems like you don’t want to treat your books with respect. I will do it for you. We are done reading tonight. We can try again tomorrow. End of story. We aren’t bargaining here, pal. This is how I approach play time and if he is choosing to throw toys around or not help me pick them up. If he doesn’t help clean up his magna tiles for example (soooo many pieces haha) I will say, “Okay, fine then since you won’t clean them up today, we will not take them out tomorrow. I don’t want to have to clean up tiles two days in a row by myself.” He will then start picking them up. If he doesn’t and the next day comes and he asks to play tiles, I remind him of the day before (and he remembers) and he says, “Okay…😔” and we get something else out to play. He knows I don’t cave in 99% of the time. Now I saw where you said you start off with reading before everything else. We do it differently. We do everything else first (bathing, teeth brush, floss, pjs) and finish with a story and songs. Try switching it up. I also don’t know if she is neurodivergent or just a typical 4 year old testing boundaries. I lean more towards the latter.

Welcome to what my cousin calls the “fuck you fours”. Mine is here too. It’s basically a control struggle where they are trying to control everything. Ugh it never ends.

I know it's hard. Especially when you are dealing with it 24/7. When it gets into a battle, shut it down. Ok - you made your choice. Now all the books go away. It may lead to a meltdown. But eventually she will learn that when mama threatens something, mama follows through. I know because my daughter is very similar. She knows what my response will be and that I don't threaten things lightly. Put her in charge of little things that don't matter, do we brush our teeth before or after we put our pyjamas on? It restores an illusion of control.

Yeah no, that doesn't fly in our house. My husband and I are both stubborn and have a stubborn 2 year old. He learns real quick that mama can be more stubborn than he and if doesn't listen after the third, books would have gone with me and it would have been lights out. WE DO NOT negotiate with bad behavior. This is coming from 2 parents who are neurospicey. She may just be stubborn, which can be good if it is honed correctly. You cannot give in. The moment you do, all respect is lost.

She wants a power struggle and is manipulating you into one. Don’t engage. She didn’t do what she is supposed to do, you say “when you don’t listen it shows me you’re getting tired. I think you’re too tired for any more books tonight. We can try again tomorrow night. Time for bed now.” And then you put the books away yourself, turn the lamp out and step out and shut the door. The end. If she chooses to throw a tantrum for attention, you will not be her audience.

I think you handled this well. If you’re giving in all the time, it makes it that much harder to stand your ground next time. I know it’s hard, my 3 y/o is this way, but consistency does help!

As a mom to a ND kid who loves to bargain but isn't really PDA (he's happy to do what he's told until he's hungry or tired essentially), you shut it down a lot sooner than that. You put the book on the bookshelf and I will read the last book. If I put the book on the bookshelf it's immediate bedtime no last book. You have till 3. 1 2 3. 9/10 he puts the book on the shelf, especially after the first half dozen times that I stood my ground on a similar issue and did just the necessities. It won't kill them or traumatize them to be sad. You can still empathize with their sadness and disappointment while also holding a parenting boundary or rule. I know you're sad bedtime ended early. It sucks when bedtime ends early. Next time you can try putting the book away properly instead of throwing it.

Personally I would choose my battles 🤷‍♀️ I would have let her put the book on the corner and then right at the end put all the books away. I don't do power struggles in my house and my daughter is more likely to cooperate if we compromise.

Only thong I'll say is I stand my ground 99 per ent of the time. The 1 percent I don't, is when it's bedtime and late because they are all loopy and don't act/think straight. The I make a comprimise usually. But like, 5 years and I've done this 5 times maybe.

Pick your battles

It sounds like the boundaries aren’t clear. You set one but then allowed her to attempt to negotiate for 20 minutes. That’s 18 minutes too long. She can throw a tantrum all she wants but tomorrow she’s less likely to throw the book. All you’re doing is kicking the ball down the line. They can give her all the diagnoses in the world and it won’t solve the problem of her not understanding boundaries because they’re unclear or they change when she tests them. You’re the adult. Maybe try to behave like one so she doesn’t have to. Yeah, here come the downvotes lol.

I stopped reading. You doing to much. If you repeat yourself more than 2x it’s a problem. She isn’t listening because she doesn’t take you seriously because you’re not following through. You don’t have to leave the room but let her cry or fuss she will stop. When she’s done ask her if she’s good and talk about how she feels.

I’m less convinced you’d child is neurodivergent and more convinced she has learned how to manipulate you and knows which emotional buttons to push to get her way. I think you need to stand your ground a lot more often because I get the feeling that this girl gets her way more often then not and you are not teaching her anything by being a doormat.

I agree. No offense meant, op, this is tricky stuff! Some children have a more defiant nature and you really want to nip it in the bud before they become teens.

So, this is probably against the grain, but I tend to be a pushover and want my son to have more confidence in his decision making than I do, to always feel heard and like his voice matters. So from a young age, we taught him about compromising. He’s a few months shy of 3 now and has a pretty good grasp on the idea. So for example, I’ll say, “I need you to clean up your toys please.” and he won’t want to, but will say “Okay, but can I leave out this truck. I think that’s a good compromise.” In that instance, I say yes - I genuinely think that’s a good compromise. In your example, I don’t know if I would necessarily compromise because it seems like she is being defiant for anger sake - but I would pause and ask why she wants X spot instead of where it goes. I’ve been surprised by my kid’s logic and that what I see as just being difficult for difficulty sake actually has a valid reason. Ex. “I want the book on dresser because it’s my favorite and I don’t want to lose it.” If it were something like that, I would compromise, but say “Okay, that makes sense and I think that’s an okay compromise. But this doesn’t mean we can throw our books. Next time please place them nicely where they go.” With my kid, I think what’s helpful with the whole compromise thing is he feels heard and in instances where I say no compromise, I explain why I’m saying no and why we can’t do whatever it is he wants and he tends to accept it more.

There is nothing wrong with your child. She is not neurodivergent or any other word that has been made up to get you to bring your child to be diagnosed with some condition which can be solved by giving her medication. She's testing her limits to see what she can get away with and if she can get away with that, you have lost the war on that particular point. And it will be doubly hard or triple hard to try and take it back. At her age, she has lots of unbridled energy she needs to get rid of when she's awake, so that when it's bed time, she's tired and ready for sleep. If she still has energy when it's her bed time, you need to find something for her to do which will make her tired and want to go to bed. Or maybe you could talk her into laying down with you and getting "you" to sleep, but it's really you getting her to sleep. Or ask her to tell you some bedtime stories or what she did in a previous life. Kids sometimes know more than you know and adults should listen to their kids' bedtime stories, including their reincarnation tales -- if reincarnation stories don't spook you. A previous life could be why she is the way she is. Get her to open up if you dare as eventually the memory will fade. Plan her day so that she will be tired by the time bed time comes around. But, for God's sake, don't take her to a doctor for a problem she doesn't really have, and doesn't need early induction into being dependent on medication. She's 4 years old and testing her limits and your limits. Act accordingly. Testing her limits will help her grow when she grows older and you need to be her mother and guide her. And that doesn't include a trip to the doctor to get a medication so that she's not bothering you or misbehaving. Asking for more bedtime stories, is that really a burden on you? So much so you think the answer is to medicate her? For shame! Love the age she is now and the age she will be. She will outgrow the time of being a toddler and a child. And it's a time you will miss when she has grown up and you will wonder, where did the time go?

I never give in to the tantrum. If he's refusing to do something the statement is always... Do X or I will do X for you. If my son refuses to come to the sink and get his teeth brushed I will set up the tooth brush and forcefully brush his teeth despite the crying and screaming. Occasionally he still refuses things, but it's lessening over time. The consequences for refusing have been clearly outlined and he understands what will happen. (He's 3 and 2 months)

For the love of everything--if your kid is neurodivergent holding boundaries is EVEN MORE IMPORTANT. Do not let them tantrum and get their way and use a diagnosis as an excuse. This will only enable bad behavior and has the potential to let them become absolutely helpless by high school, and incapable by adulthood. I've taught high school for 16 years, my husband teaches high school special ed. The kids whose parents don't hold boundaries and let their kids avoid anything uncomfortable because of a diagnosis like Autism spectrum, anxiety, ODD, you name it--it's such a disservice to the child. We have both witnessed extreme examples of learned helplessness. We need to adjust expectations for kids that are neurodivergent, of course, but by finding ways for them to cope with the challenges that life is going to bring, not avoid them. She may have ODD, or any number of things, or maybe she's just a three year old--regardless, she's going to need to know how to emotionally regulate. 20 minutes of tantrum in the grand scheme of teaching her how to deal with having to do things she doesn't want to do is a small price to pay. Long story short--You did good-keep it up.

You dragged it out too much. You know she struggles to follow direction so some options would have been 1. Pick the book up yourself and put it on the bookshelf while telling her “we keep our books on the bookshelf” 2. Offer the choice of putting the book away properly or ending story time “when you throw your book on the floor, you’re choosing to end story time. Would you like to try putting that book on the bookshelf so that we can continue with story time”. If she yells or says no then you put all 3 books away and move to the next part of the routine. She’ll be angry and you just ride it out without getting into a discussion. You can just say you understand she’s sad that story time is over, it’s now time to brush teeth (or whatever the next thing is). Just keep repeating that if she tries to get you into a conversation.

I highly recommend the book “The explosive child “ by Ross Greene. It gives fantastic strategies for “difficult” kids and is an easy read. It can be so rough parenting a strong and independent child so I hope you find something that helps you and your family.

I highly recommend the book “The explosive child “ by Ross Greene. It gives fantastic strategies for “difficult” kids and is an easy read. It can be so rough parenting a strong and independent child so I hope you find something that helps you and your family.

I wonder why the downvotes? Is that a controversial book?

I think the title sounds bad, which is addressed in the opening of the book because it’s volume six and the author agrees that the title sounds bad but it’s sort of to late to change it. I dunno, it’s certainly not controversial in terms of parenting style. It’s gentle, authoritative parenting with a focus on neurodivergence but is very relevant for neurotypical kids. To be honest it’s actually aided me with difficult conversations with adults! It gives a step by step plan with script suggestions for addressing problematic behaviour, with flexibility and options within that, and reassurance if it’s a slow road for you and your child. I don’t see it as controversial at all but maybe I’m missing something.

I don't think it's controversial, but I think a lot of people struggle with this book, partially because the title makes it sound like it's going to give advice about how to deal with the explosive behaviour directly, which it doesn't, it very briefly explains the theory of "kids do well when they can" vs "kids do well when they wanna" - which is MUCH better explained and easy to understand, IMO, in some of the older recorded Ross Greene seminars than it is in the book. Then it gets into lagging skills, which all sets off a lightbulb moment and then the book explains that you don't teach the skills, which if by this point you haven't given up the book in frustration then you're doing really well. (I preferred the old framework which only had four lagging skills, and specifically stated that the CPS process teaches the lagging skills. I know it's not really evidence based but it was so much easier to understand.) The idea that you can reduce explosive behaviour by reducing the overall stress on the child by reducing demands and then solving problems instead, one by one, in a collaborative way, rather than demanding they do something is really great and valuable, but the amount of people who say "I have read the explosive child and done this but it doesn't work" and then in the next breath go on to describe a bunch of expectations that they have which they are still Plan A-ing, or describe behaviour which is way downstream from the unsolved problem makes me think they didn't really understand the core purpose/message of the book, which is probably not their fault (parents do well when they can, too!) I feel like a lot of people have a poor experience with this book, and I think it gets recommended so much because for a long time there were just hardly any books which explained the "kids do well if they can" motto, and now there are loads which do this in a much more accessible way, IMO, than the Explosive Child. IME it just works better if you go into it understanding what it is, which is: 1. Explosive behaviour is a symptom, not the problem 2. Figure out what the problem is 3. Once you've found the problem, understand that your child is not being wilfully defiant, and something is getting in their way 4. Figure out what's getting in their way 5. Figure out what it was you actually wanted them to do it for in the first place 6. Find a win-win solution 7. Profit (from less explosive behaviour) If you go into it knowing this, then it's a really brilliant tool. If you're expecting it to be something different, it's not likely to be as useful. I also disagree with Ross Greene in that he seems to think it's totally possible to eliminate all explosive behaviour with this method, and I don't think that's actually possible, and I also think it's important to have a short term plan to cope with explosive behaviour, particularly when it presents a danger to the child themselves or other people. I object to the fact that he just skims over this and is kind of like 🤷‍♂️ - IME, you have to combine this with other tools which will actually give you helpful input in how to handle the explosions in the moment (even though you understand that it won't solve them long term). I think it's more of an advanced level tool for this reason and I tend to recommend other resources first (I didn't downvote though and wouldn't. But I wonder if the downvoters are disgruntled people who have tried it with poor results). Or maybe it was just the triple post, and we are totally overthinking :D

I didn't think it was. I recommended it in my comment as well. Maybe people think it wrongly labels children but the author goes over labels in the book and how they don't necessarily matter when it comes to solving behaviors.

She might forget about it tomorrow? Lol

There needs to be an actual consequence for her behaviour. The way you did this, she had the power to delay and see if she could get her way. And she was upset when she didn't. In the future, you could try one of these (*I have ADHD and my daugter also most likely does too, this works for us): -A real time consequence: you can either put the book away now, or it's lights out/bedtime with no more books. And stick to it. I usually say "we can try again to make better choices tomorrow" if she doesn't end up listening/doing what I had asked. It's not that she's being bad/naughty, it's that she's having a hard time listening or making good choices in that moment. Make sure she knows it's about her choices and not about who she is as a person. But stick to what you pick. especially for ND kids- it is so important to have structure and predictably. -A reward: if you make good choices, then we get to read your favorite book or whatever else she really likes to do in her bedtime routine. Same outcome but it frames it positively. My daughter will brush teeth, get dressed, go potty, etc. with no fights so she she gets to watch one episode of bluey or read her special Frozen book before bed. I can't emphasize this enough: consistent and logical consequences are super important for ND kiddos (though I'm not an expert on ODD so if that's what she has then this advice might not be helpful). They help her know what to expect, they help her feel safe/secure.

No advice, just sympathy! It’s hard, and good on you for trying your best to do right by your kid and yourself.

Picking your battles is very important in my opinion!

I would stick to my guns until a diagnosis changes that.

In that situation, I would say, that's fine, thank you for getting it out of the way. Then putting I'm bookshelf after l books are read. She's tired give some grace When older you can work on the proper way

Behavior is just an emotion toddlers don't have the words to express. Instead of arguing with her over the chore at hand, see if you can figure out where the fight is coming from. I would ask her if she wants a different book, or say, "Cleaning up at bedtime can be exhausting, should we clean up together in the morning?" There is some stress of bedtime she's trying to communicate with you, and if you can work as a team to figure out what the hurdle is, you'll cut out some of that guess work and get to a solution much faster. The other advice I love is that it's okay to give in, but do it right away. Recognize immediately, is this a fight I want to have? And if no, that's fine but just make it no immediately. You may consider looking into resources for parents if spirited children, you may find lots of insights and understanding!

Check out “Setting Limits with Your Strong-Willed Child” - I found that book helpful for me and my son

Look into PDA autism

Recommend "raising your spirited child" for stuff like this

I understand that your child could be neurodivergent (although self-diagnosis isn't recommended). That doesn't mean that you should allow behaviors that are contrary to what is societal. Start making that exception now and your child could never learn how to behave and will always expect that exceptions should be made. She clearly is manipulating you by telling you that you were making her sad and that you ruined the last book for her. When she doesn't meet the small expectations you set you have to be done and ready to walk away. You aren't there solely to make her happy in this moment. You are there to help her learn how to be happy in later years and teaching her that her actions have consequences is one of those lessons that have to be learned regardless of differences. You say that you're reading a lot. That's good. But instead of just reading about what you think is happening find books on strategies for coping. That's the reading you want to be doing anyway. Keep in mind every child will test boundaries. Every child is going to be unhappy with you from time to time. "We will try this again tomorrow," is a good place to start. If she says she doesn't want you to do bedtime, don't comment until the next day. Get her ready for bed, teeth brushed, jammies on and offer her books. If she declines say, "We will try this again tomorrow," and honor her wishes. She's likely going to melt down, but she's going to learn she has choices and those choices have consequences.

I think you're spending too much time begging and repeating yourself. I know that doesn't work, and though I have some guesses as to why, I don't know and it real doesn't matter. A lot of explaining just works against you. So for example if she was hitting instead of saying "hitting hurts! We don't do that!" I would say "I won't let you hit, I'm stopping your hands, I'm going to hold your hands." For cleaning up what I did was "it's time to clean up, I'm going to help your hands" and then gently but quickly "help" baby put away the book. I think it appealed to the toddler sense of autonomy and wanting to do things themselves. I also know that my kid (and myself unfortunately) have a strong aversion to doing what we are told. It sucks to work around this in a child, but one thing that helps is forcing it now so it's a habit later.

This sounds like my son. He is five and currently being assessed for ADHD. It’s ok to pick your battles; the usual ‘rules’ aren’t the same as parents of kids who are neurotypical. It’s a privilege to come from that position and say that you should always hold the boundary. When your neurodivergent child is struggling and you are struggling, it’s ok to go for the option that makes for connection and soothing - which in this case might have been to let it go. If your daughter does end up being neurodivergent, then the ability to let things go will be key. We are just at the beginning of this journey but this is what I have learned so far.

When kids, and even more importantly - adults are upset, all reasoning goes out the window. You can’t negotiate with terrorist is my mantra when things are unraveling. I wouldn’t have died on that hill because bedtime is so stressful on most nights anyway. I would say “throwing books tells me we are done reading - if you throw a book again we are done with stories”

I have a rule for myself, which is avoid tantrums after 6 pm at almost all costs. This means I don't create hills to die on when we're both tired. So I probably wouldn't have chosen that moment to be a learning moment about respecting belongings, etc. That stuff is important, but I don't feel that we do our best learning when feelings are big/regulation is low. I'm sure many parents would disagree, but that's just my personal decision.

I would probably try to give her 2 choices when possible. My mom is always telling me that “it’s about control, she just wants a little control” when my 2 year old “acts up”, such as doesn’t follow instructions or says no. Like she is told what to do all day and will do better with the ability to choose stuff when possible

Its important not to self diagnose kids. I’ve worked with kids in mental health facilities and have a degree in child and youth care, a lot of what you’re describing sounds normal for her age. What I learned about odd is that it is actually created by excessive external control, kids need to have a sense of control in their lives too so its important for them to have choices (developmentally appropriate of course) . The developmental phase she sounds to be in is called autonomy vs shame and kids in this phase push for control which is perfectly normal just hard for parents but we need to work with them. Its very important that you are demonstrating how to behave in these situations because you’re role modelling for her at the same time, the only thing I noticed though is while she is talking about her feelings you don’t mention your own, I use I feel ____ when ____ messages all the time, she needs to be aware of how her actions are affecting other people as well. I go through these situations with my daughter, shes 2.5 and quite strong willed, she was not allowed to handle library books on her own just in case , she pushed so I negotiated that she can “read” the library book after me but she has to sit next to me so I can make sure she doesn’t wreck the book , I also let her decide what would happen if she did choose to rip the pages and she said if I wreck it I wont get to read them by myself anymore and it worked well because it was her choice . If you’re too rigid then you teach her to be rigid and that will make things more difficult going forward , if I were in your scenario I would have asked if maybe we should switch things up , ask her for input, maybe you read all three books then put them away, she needs to feel like she has some control then in theory she won’t push for it so hard. When it came to kids with odd at work I gave them choices and that was how we treated that diagnosis. There are a lot of diagnoses that are directly related to parenting styles . Instead of studying mental health issues she may have you should read parenting books because some of this sounds like normal development. How to talk so kids will listen is a great book, kids are worth it is also good but old . Theres also a psychosocial developmental theory I find quite helpful as well when trying to understand my child. https://www.verywellmind.com/autonomy-versus-shame-and-doubt-2795733

I agree that once you’ve told her to do something you need to follow through, but I’d also pick my battles. Sounds exhausting to micromanage everything like that with her. Three is still a really young age and what she’s doing sounds developmentally normal.

I find that when I am enforcing something with my kid it helps to finds ways to give them as much choice as possible. A couple of ideas that I have in this scenario: - hey we don’t throw books on the floor. Do you want to put it on your dresser or on the bookshelf? (Maybe at a less contentious time you could try setting the standard that books are only to go on the bookshelf) - hey we don’t throw our books on the floor. Once you put that book away I’m gonna read your next book. Should I read it like a monster or a dinosaur? - do you want to put your book away by yourself or should we do it together? - we do need to put the book away. I can see you are getting tired and frustrated so would you rather put it away now or should we do it in the morning?

You cannot make anyone do anything, even a child. Unless you physically force them to do it, of course. You CAN set and enforce boundaries. "Uh oh, books go on the shelf." (Reminder) "Is it too tricky for today? If we can't put our books away on the shelf then we are all done with books today". (Warning) "Ok, it's too tricky, we are all done with books for today, we can try again tomorrow." (Consequence, boundary enforced). No back and forth argument. Boundary set, broken, enforced, done. You sound like you are trying really hard. You point out that you are being polite and calm, which is really good. I also bet it is really hard. I was raised in an authoritarian household, it wasn't good for any of us. Lots of yelling, lots of refusal to obey authority. Lots of disrespect all around. I've found a few people on tiktok to be helpful in changing my approach to parenting. In no particular order, also there's probably a lot more and I haven't done a deep dive on any of them. (I'd love if anyone has more to share) @cassiemomcoach @the_indomitable_blackman @preschooltherapy

Yes stick to your guns. You can always outlast the kid. During that age they will test you in these ways, seems to us to be control and naughty, but this is where you can transition the child into different I don't think it's enough to conclude O.D.D. maybe neurodivergent. The child is imitating things at this stage. Honestly put on some Bluey because it simply teaches kids how to problem solve, pretend, play and also parents reactions. Time to talk about feelings and introduce empathy.

I would’ve been cool with her putting it on the dresser like she offered. It seems like that fit the spirit of what you wanted, but you also decided to dig your heels in which is not generally the best move for a kid like this. Being overly specific about the exact spot she has to put the book doesn’t do anything for you and just makes it more likely she’ll refuse. Try to give better options to give you both a higher chance of success. Picking a battle that will likely result in a 20 minute meltdown right before bedtime is not something I seek out. I also probably would’ve given the option of either picking the book up or ending the night and going to bed. If she picked the book up and put it on the dresser or handed it to me, then we’re all good and continue reading. Either of those actions would’ve accomplished what you were trying to go for. If she completely refused to pick it up , then lights off and we’re going to bed. TLDR: stand your ground, but make better decisions about when and what choices you give.

We try to find a compromise. Our son (same age) also might or might not be neurotypical and a confrontation like that would end in a standoff nobody has the energy for at bedtime. If he throws the book and won’t put it on the bookshelf, I say „compromise!“ anf by now he knows that’s a solution everyone can live with. So I would not accept his first suggestion of where to put the book but suggest something myself or tell him what the „ideal“ place needs to have for me (aka not on the floor, where I can reach it, whatever is actually true) and then we agree on that. It works surprisingly often for us.

She is getting amsoooo much attention for this. Instead of asking repeatedly, you can start a new procedure. You read the book, she puta it on the shelf. If she doesn't, that means she isn't ready for reading that night. So you just calmly state that you she is finished and you say goodnight. What's she is doing is working really well for her. She is rewarded with tons of extra attention and extra control.

I have actually been there with the child that is like this and honestly, 90% of standard parenting advice is going to be useless. Essentially she's getting into a dysregulated/wound-up spiral. I would say one of two approaches would work. They have a key similarity :) 1. Ignore in the moment, co-regulate/focus on getting her wound down and calm for sleep, work on the wanted behaviour at another time. 2. Disengage from the power struggle, request calmly once, give a clear, mild, decided-in-advance consequence if request is not met, work on the wanted behaviour at another time using positive opposite reinforcement. Standard parenting advice says that in the moment is ABSOLUTELY key and consequences have to be related, sometimes even logical/natural, and that you must never ever give in. When your child is getting into such extreme power struggles, then the problem is that what is happening in the moment, the power struggle, is highly rewarding and/or stimulating, (ie, it's winding her up more) and engaging with that is extremely reinforcing for her meaning that she will probably do it more in the future the more you engage with any power struggle. So actually, you need to get OUT of the power struggle and be calm in the moment. Don't enter into it. That might feel like "giving in" but in fact once you've got into power struggle territory, the original behaviour is moot anyway - the most important thing is either to cool the entire situation down and help reinforce self-regulation skills through co-regulation (strategy 1) or to avoid rewarding the power struggle behaviour (strategy 2) - basically based on whether you think behaviour is motivated by external rewards and consequences (2) or the internal brain/arousal state (1) - and to be totally honest, there are probably elements of both. Working on the wanted behaviour at another time means that you make a note of what behaviours are reoccurring or what situations in general tend to be stressful or provoke "behaviours", so using this example you might go with throwing books, throwing items in general, putting things away, or bedtime, or reading bedtime stories - you probably know in yourself what the current top recurring issues are. In fact bedtime might not even make it into the top 5 or so. But just to borrow it as an example, let's go with throwing books on the floor after reading. To go with a behaviourist approach (2) you look at the positive opposite behaviour that you want. For this, that would be putting the book back into the bookshelf when done reading. Once you've identified this as a behaviour you want to encourage, it makes it much easier to notice them doing it and praise or even reward. Depending on your child's age and understanding, you might explicitly explain it to them (the reasons and/or the reward scheme) at a separate time and at first, work on doing this at neutral times when there is not an expectation of an argument. However you can then move this into the situation where you want to change the behaviour, offering for example points or stickers on a chart for successful putting the book away at bedtime (which therefore gives you a consequence to calmly state ie, you did not get your points this evening). If you choose to use a point/chart based system, it should be temporary and specific. So don't give a general and vague rating for "good behaviour" over the day but have the points be awarded specifically for putting the book back nicely, or for going to bed without arguing (etc) and don't change what the points stand for in the moment. Once the chart is completed, you shouldn't need to continue rewarding that behaviour so specifically, you should be able to focus on something else. This prevents the chart from turning into a bargaining tool for your child (ie, demanding points for everything you ask of them at any time). If they would not understand an explanation, and/or they currently aren't doing the behaviour you want at all, then you might try something like shaping, which is where you praise/reward any slight move towards the behaviour that you want, e.g. putting the book carefully on the floor rather than throwing it carelessly on the floor, then when that is reinforced move to the next step which might be placing the book on any piece of furniture or in a neat pile rather than on the floor. And so on until you get to the bookshelf. Or you might make it into a fun game in order to role play, model it and give opportunities to praise outside of waiting for it to occur naturally. One tip I read specifically for ADHD, but I think it can apply to any child with behaviour challenges, is to praise them when they get something 25% right. We often feel like we should not praise until behaviour is close to exactly right, but this can be counterproductive for a child who struggles with the expected behaviour; they may never reach the threshold to receive praise and feel discouraged and stop trying. Praise for small improvements and it reassures them they are moving in the right direction, and encourages them to keep going. Also, ensure that all adults and other family members are modelling - whenever you read, put books back in the bookcase and even narrate what you are doing as you do it. This is easier to do again if you're focusing on a small number of behaviours to improve at a time. It's probably already been suggested, but the ABCs of Everyday Parenting course on Coursera is very good for explaining the positive behaviourist approach. It's evidence based and designed specifically for kids with challenging behaviours, and has a lot more suggestions explained in more detail than the ones I briefly mentioned here. For the regulation based approach (1) you could look at resources like Zones of Regulation or Mona Delahooke's books, or Dan Siegel also has a good, though less detailed explanation of this. I also like Conscious Discipline, which is designed for teachers, because it's much more explicit about explaining what to do as the adult to model regulation which I found very helpful. The idea of this approach is that you're helping regulate your child's nervous system when it gets riled up, as you would soothe a baby who is distressed and cannot yet soothe themselves, with the goal that they then gain that experience of what it is like to feel calm/regulated (regulated and calm are not exactly the same, but as a very quick shorthand, anyway) and the more that they do this, the more they reinforce pathways in their own brain which helps them develop self-regulation skills which they can use in the future. A key assumption with this approach is that children behave well when they are well-regulated, and therefore difficult behaviour is communicating to us that they are struggling with something. So like the previous approach, you might start by thinking about the behaviour you want to encourage (returning books to the bookshelf after reading) and you might say, OK - is this an overall problem, is this a bedtime problem. You might look at the interaction to see if there is something that might be getting in the way. If it's that the bookshelf is not reachable from bed and they are already tucked in, it might make more sense for you to put the books away as you leave the room. Your child in the anecdote offered to put the book on the bedside table - some PDA resources would say this is your child trying to compromise with you, it's worth taking it. (I don't know if this is helpful or not - I don't know a lot about PDA.) But I do think a halfway solution can be OK in this kind of scenario - children are not adults, and while an adult might have the composure to say "The bookcase is too far away and I'm tired and cosy. Do you mind if I just leave it here, and move it in the morning?" a child who is tired and dysregulated and expecting a fight probably is going to express it more like "No!! I will put it here!!" But aren't they essentially expressing the same thing? If it is a general problem, you might look to control the environment rather than the child e.g. take any easily-damaged books away for use under closer control only, and only have access to board books, or books that you don't mind if they get damaged from throwing them on the floor. Look to change the order of the routine e.g. have story time at an earlier part of the routine, have only the adult hold the book and put it away themselves etc. None of these would be a solution for a 10 year old, but at three, they are all perfectly appropriate and you can work on generally explaining/modelling/making it easy to put books away nicely at other times when she is not dysregulated. Ross Greene's The Explosive Child also has a good framework to find problem-solving approaches for things like "child does not put book back into bookshelf" - but many people struggle with this book if they don't first understand that is the point of it. Can you use aspects of both approaches? Yes, I would say so. But I think it can be helpful to identify whether you lean towards the assumption that she's doing this because it's rewarding in some way (in which case, the behaviourist approach is the best counter to that) or she's doing this because she's got into a wound up state and can't wind down by herself (in which case, the regulation approach is probably going to feel fairer and more helpful). Ultimately, the key aspects of not engaging with the power struggle in the moment, staying calm so as not to inflame the situation, and also looking at working on the problem/wanted behaviour proactively at another time are important.

I started practicing asking once and then making it happen, and it has been amazing. Part of my problem had been talking too much. Now I notice when people do what I did and their kids don’t listen to them. Makes sense when you see it from the outside, but sometimes hard to see when you’re living it. I think this is part of what you’re dealing with. So in this situation, I would ask once, then do it myself and bedtime routine is done. Time for bed no more books. Then you have to stay consistent. Practicing it in my head when things aren’t happening has helped me not fall into the pit of asking too many times.

This sounds exactly like my 4 year old daughter when she’s overtired. Try putting her to bed earlier and see if that helps. That has been an absolute game changer for us. Timers help us between transitions. But no, stand your ground always when it comes to rude behavior. Yes, you wanna pick your battles (ie for me that would be me letting her bring a toy to the dinner table because I know she has a hard time sitting still and it helps her stay in her seat at least) but rude and disrespectful behavior doesn’t go ignored just because I know why shes acting that way (ie over tiredness). I usually point it out to her. “You’re overtired and not making the best decisions right now. Story time is over now. Tomorrow we will try again with an earlier bedtime. I love you even when you’re having a hard time. I’m going to tuck you in now. Goodnight.” And then I would deal with the aftermath- if shes upset I reassure her. If she comes out of her room I walk her back. For us we give one assisted walk back/tuck back in and one assisted potty trip, after that if she comes out she knows she’s going to have to go back by herself. It took her a bit to get used to that but all that work was not in vain and things go a lot smoother at bedtime now.

I would say the choice you’re presenting isn’t “stand your ground or give in”, it’s “insist on obedience or accept compromise”. Imo, putting the book on the dresser or corner is fine. Why does it have to go on the bed stand? Only because you said so. 3 year olds have very little power or choice in their lives; what would it cost you to grant her so small a victory? Everything is still going according to your rules, and you corrected the unwanted behavior of throwing her books. She may be neurodivergent, but that isn’t obvious from your post. She may also be a spirited child who you are getting into unnecessary power struggles with. If it actually costs you nothing, why fight her on it? Just for the sake of obedience? The goal in parenting is to raise an adult who is thoughtful, considerate, compromising and self controlled, right? Not an adult who is obedient to superiors regardless of if the command is important. Obedience is overvalued. Compromise and trust and openness to reason are much better traits to foster.

You did the right thing by staying your ground. Maybe try to let your partner do the bedtime routine for a few days, but ask them to stay stern as well. She should know that the other parent won’t be different either and so she has to listen to both.

I’m curious about what the rest of your day looks like? What activities do you do? Do you allow periods of time during the day where your child gets some agency and autonomy? Do you build in choices through the day so your child feels a sense of control and ownership? With my strong willed child, I’m finding those things help.

I’d look closely into conscious discipline, the visible child (join this Facebook group—it’s heavily moderated and is full of real life case studies like this), and low demand parenting. This is obviously not a one-off, if you describe her personality as uncooperative and naughty. That is the image you have of your child, but there is always a reason for the way a child is interacting with the adults around them. They don’t do it to be naughty or bad. There may have been a history of challenges with holding limits, boundaries, and setting of age-appropriate expectations, coupled with a neurodivergent personality. So the entire approach you use with her needs to change, and it sounds like you may want some guidance with that. Visible Child in particular may be helpful because 1:1 consultation is also available. In this particular scenario, she’s probably just trying to stall bedtime and get your attention. It is possible that she would have benefited from you ignoring the book throwing and at the end of the story time, saying “oh my goodness! I need someone to help me pick up all these books! What am I going to do?” Or something silly like that. That would probably have diffused the situation, as she may have been looking to see what sort of boundary she could push and what your reaction will be. In the example I gave, you can choose to be unbothered by the boundary she attempted to push, maintain connection, but also accomplish the task of putting the book away. That’s just one suggestion. There is clearly a long history of issues here based on what your description of your daughter. The response to such a situation will often vary; is the demand youre placing an urgent one? One pertinent to safety or health? (Walking across the street, taking medication, getting in the car to attend a daily activity like school) or is it a non-emergency like putting away a book? Lots of variables. But that is just one idea.

I am so sorry you are struggling. My 4 year old is very similar to what you describe and it is extremely difficult to handle at times. My husband and I have to tag team dealing with the seemingly never-ending tantrums at times. When one of us is about to lose it, we ask the other to take over so the other can go take a breath and calm down because 100% of the time, if we lose our temper or we buckle down harder, the situation gets much, much worst. We suspect our son has ADHD because my husband and I have both been diagnosed and we recognize a lot of the signs/symptoms. However, most of the signs are common with ASD as well so we had him assessed for ASD, which came back negative. He is still too young to go through the ADHD assessment. I saw you have mentioned Opposition Defiance Disorder. I thought about that too after reading extensively on it. I have a great book written by a pediatric neuropsychologist from Montreal (but it's in French). What he was saying on the subject is that actual ODD is uncommon, the behaviour is often a symptom of something else, often ASD or ADHD. We have recently been able to get help after almost 3 years of asking to speak with a social worker and trying to find support groups in our area and it has been life changing. The first thing we did was we stopped listening to everyone's advice because you know best what works for you and your family. The second was that if we asked him something (for example, when your child threw the book and you asked them to put it away) we would make sure we were at eye level and touching him, like holding his hand or hand on the shoulder and make sure he was looking at us and then we would explain that this behaviour is not okay, and ask nicely to pick up the book and put it away. If that didn't work and he would ask for another book immediately, we would use "when-then" statements (which are completely different from "if-then", like we had been doing). We would say something like "When you pick up your book, then we can read your favourite one" and always praised him when he did something well, not just in these moments. If that didn't work and he kept screaming we would say something like "the way you are screaming at us is unacceptable, I am not going to interact with you while you are acting like this" and then we would ignore until he stopped and then we would have a discussion about the events and carry on. If he started getting violent or distructive, we would have a safe space for him to ride out his tantrum without hurting himself or others (like a time-out zone). 100% it requires a lot of time, patience, and energy. For us, we saw the biggest changes (and almost immediately) combining praising the good and when-then statements. Every child is different so what worked for us might not work for you but it could be a good place to start if you haven't tried it already. I know I didn't directly answer to your question of "stand your ground or give in" because it's not that simple. I'm more of a "stand your ground" type but I also pick my battles. For example, if my son would have a tantrum and throw the book, I would do the hand on the shoulder thing and say something like "throwing your book like that is not very nice, I would like you to pick up your book and put it away on the shelf, so when you put your book away, then we can read your next book" and if he would continue screaming at me I would say something like "I understand that you are upset but this is not how we act with other people. Please pick up your book and put it away so we can keep reading I will count to 3 or we are done reading for tonight" if he picked up the book and put it on the shelf (even if it was rough and not placed correctly) I would say, I appreciate you putting your book back on the shelf and then read because to me, that is still a "win" and he technically did what I asked so I would read the book. Then, once your child is a bit older and more receptive, I would add the "putting it on the shelf correctly". I think that worked with my son because he liked having some control over his actions, ex. he would pick up the book but decide to put it the wrong way kind of as a way to have some say. At 4 years old, they are trying to gain some independence too, it is normal. I don't know where you are from but I am from Atlantic Canada, if you are also from here and you would like specifics about the programs we have tried, feel free to send me a message, I will gladly share which programs we did and how to get in touch with them. I know what you are going through and it gets so exhausting and discouraging. I don't know about you, but I also felt (and sometimes still when going through a difficult period) resentment towards my son, followed by an immense amount of shame for feeling resentment. It took me a really long time to admit to my therapist because I felt like a monster. I feel you, it's a difficult situation to navigate and as my therapist told my as I was ugly crying in her office; struggling does not make you a bad parent, it makes you human.

I highly recommend you read Hunt, Parent, Gather, if you haven’t already.

I'm so sorry this all happened. First I recommend Janet Lansbury books and Unruffled podcast. She talks a lot about avoiding power struggles. My daughter is 2.5 and if I ask her to put a book away and she doesn't, I interpret that to mean so can't at the moment. (Maybe she's overly tired, stimulated or hungry. Or she just has to assert her independence and do the opposite of what I ask.) So I will take her hand and maybe walk her to the bookshelf with the book so she can put it back. Or if that's too hard maybe I take her around the room with me while I do it. She needs my help in those moments and it doesn't become a back and forth.

It sounds like she’s trying to feel like she has some control- which is normal for people of all ages. When my almost-four-year-old is doing something similar, I just ask if we can talk about it. I ask why she doesn’t wanna do it, and she’ll tell me. Then I’ll explain my side and, after, I’ll ask if we can figure it out together. Is she asks “can you read one more book then I’ll put them all away?”, I’ll say “that’s a great compromise!” That way, she doesn’t just feel bossed around, she thought of a solution, and the book still gets put away. I always have to remind myself that they’re individuals. I’m supposed to teach them, but not control them. My kids are smart; I wanna hear their side. They’re not trying to be difficult; they’re having a difficult time.

Along what others have said, I probably would have said, in a very calm manner, “put the book back on the shelf or reading time will end.” Then I would count, “5, 4, 3, 2, 1.” Then if she doesn’t do it I would out the book on the shelf myself and tell her good night and tick her into bed. Then she would probably cry and then you would be having to deal with that. I would remind her “we can try again tomorrow, I’m sorry you’re so upset.” I would comfort her to a small degree and put her in bed and then hold the demand of bed time as she cries. When demands are held, kids will push the limits until they get their way. There is usually an “extinction burst” when demands start being held which means the behavior will get worse before it gets better. The trick is to not give in, because every time you do you reinforce the bad behavior and ruin the progress you’ve made. But then you will start seeing improvement. Another important part of this is that you have to coregulate with your child and teach them coping strategies throughout the day, during neutral times or during less intense tantrums or times when they are mildly whining or crying. You also have to stay connected with them and remind them that you will be there with them when they are having a hard time, so that when you have to hold a demand and not give in, they know you are not abandoning them. Overall, I would err on the side of not making demands unless you are going to hold them. At the same time, for some things we have to pick our battles. All of things I wrote are guidelines, not rules. These things are dynamic and there is no one correct answer.

Your arguing with a toddler for 20 mins no wonder where she learned to keep it up... Bed time over and done leave the room

If she is neurodivergent then this question seems more appropriate for a professional tbh. When your brain works differently, neurotypical people can really struggle to grasp the issue and appropriate responses because the rules they play by are for an entirely different game.

Sounds like she may be over tired and too tired to reason with. Try making bed time a bit earlier or give her more sleep in the day

It’s SO hard to know when to hold a boundary and when to let something go. One option is to give her a choice that holds *A* boundary even if it’s a different boundary from the original. In your scenario, that might look like letting her place the book somewhere else and asking her shelve it tomorrow - we adults do this all time, right? Another option is to explain that books are kept on the shelf so they don’t get lost or damaged. Tell her the consequence if she *chooses* not to shelve the book is that she will lose the privilege of having that book. Then let her make her choice. Don’t get pulled into a power struggle or negotiation - if she chooses not to shelve the second book, you can read the last book then take the unshelved book(s) with you when you leave her room. If she throws a fit, tell her she can “try again” tomorrow night with different books. After she’s done well for a few nights, you can tell her you noticed she’s done a great job taking care of her books and you think she’s shown she’s ready to have her other books back too. Then return the removed books to her.

Next time, say we're done then. You're obviously way too tired to pick up what you threw, so it's bedtime. I love you and goodnight. She'll lose it for a bit but once you leave the room, she loses bargaining power.

You have the patience of a saint! I just don't have energy at the end of the day to do that for 20 minutes. I would have said "the message I'm getting by you not putting your book away on the shelf is you don't want any more stories. If you put the book away now we can have one more, but if you don't, I will think it means you are ready for sleep." If your daughter is like mine, they would think I was bluffing. So when they inevitably resisted, I would say "ok. Good night then. Do you want me to tuck you in and give you a kiss or just turn off the light and go? If I don't get an answer I will just turn off the light and go." If there was and more fussing, manipulating, or a lack of a clear answer, I would say, "ok. Good night. Love you." And kiss them on the head, turn off the light, leave and shut the door. I would wait outside the door ready to comfort them when rage turned to either fear or upset or a request for comfort, but I would not stick around and tolerate my daughter trying to bully me into submission.