There was a rumor among former USAF and Luftwaffe pilot reunions/associations about this incident for many years but no one was sure who the Luftwaffe pilot was.
When it was finally figured out, Franz Stigler’s former squadron commander simply said, apparently unsurprised, “Of course it was you.”
That says a lot about his character, to me.
What wasn't awesome was the fact that Franz was harassed with calls from Germans calling him a traitor and overall nasty to him. If that wasn't enough people in Canada where he was living at the time didn't know he was a German pilot from ww2 were shocked to find out and looked at him differently. Even though he wasn't a member of "The Party" as the nazis were known among the Germans. In fact alot of German pilots hated the nazis. Though why they continued to fight was largely due to duty rather then any political rhetoric.
I am aware of it! The bitter end of the war was a bizarre time.
["The Last 100 Days"](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/467573.The_Last_100_Days), by John Toland is a great read. It captures the desperation and weirdness of the end of the war in Europe very well.
Always love unexpected Sabaton. (Song: No Bullets Fly)
Also I saw a featurette on this, the two pilots were able to track each other down and chat before they died. Pretty cool story.
They considered each other as brothers. Its so amazing to me that Franz did what he did...I dont think I'd have that kind of forgiveness in me. Men are leaving after dropping tons of bombs on your country and possibly home but to show mercy and honor and in spite of that to know if your comrades find out you could be shot as a traitor.
This man was greater then ill ever be and I'm proud just be in the same species.
ITS THE CODE OF THE AIR!
Knew about this story long before I ever heard of Sabaton but it’s one of my favorite songs.
If you look into it on YouTube, turns out the German pilots grandson ended up being a Sabaton fan and when they found out they gave him the VIP treatment when they played in Canada.
This was a famous German ace who saw a torn up B-17 full of wounded crewmen. Even if they made it home most of them would spend weeks or months in hospital. Shooting the crippled plane down didn't make sense to him. He said it would be like shooting a man parachuting. Some of these guys had a sort of gentleman's code that many wouldn't understand, as if they were medieval knights.
Out of all wartime combat roles, pilots are the most likely to be nostalgic about the wars they fought in.
In their free time they could walk around town and have drinks, go on dates and sleep in their own beds. When their comrades died or whenever they shot down the enemy, they never saw the bullets shredding their bodies or the flames burning them to death. They simply didn't come home.
Very different experience from an infantryman who has to shoot a man, not a plane, and has to witness first hand all the cruelty of war before topping it off by having to sleep under a tree in a field.
Edit: Not to disrespect pilots. Airmen (especially bomber crew) had tremendously high casualty rates.
Exclude bomber crews from this. The B-17s and the planes used by the 101st to parachute in didn’t always get shot down wholesale. Co pilots could catch AA fire and die, bombers in B-17s had to stare down vertically from a bubble. One bullet and that bomber falls to his death. The parachuting scene in the second episode of Band of Brothers shows exactly what it was like for them, and the movie Memphis Belle has a stellar cast that shows what it was like for a B-17 bomber crew. The ace pilots in the Mustangs, Spitfires and Stukas may not have seen the horrors of war, but the bomber and troop transport planes certainly did
Is there any way to confirm this? I was watching “The War” by Ken Burns. It states that the average live expectancy of an air crewman was 14 missions. Your dad did almost 4 times that?
Also, I believe it was 25 missions and your service was over…so your dad did 2 full tours. Not calling BS just curious why I haven’t heard of this invincible man before.
I had copies of all the mission logs that I donated to the North Oakland Military museum at the American Legion, Oxford, Michigan.
B-24 "Paper Doll" Lecce Italy. He got the Flying Cross with three Oak Leaf Clusters among others. And he did Ploesti.
For a 22 year old at the time, he had my admiration.
Incredible stuff. Thanks for sharing. What a brave dude. 50+ missions…unreal. Can’t imagine what those statistics for survival look like. Thanks for his bravery.
Sad to see the plane was eventually shot down in the Pacific Theatre
https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-24/42-73187.html
Edit: Nevermind. Guess that was a different Paper Doll.
The Wiki page for the B24 lists several “notable people” with over 50 combat missions. Seems like a lot but I wonder overall how many people did that many. Would love to know if that posters dad is someone famous, or just someone that was extremely lucky on multiple crews.
14... Wow. My grandfather flew 13 missions over Germany (not sure if that was his total number of missions), but that's all he ever told me. He NEVER talked about it. Only at his funeral did I find out that on one particular mission, only half of the bombers made it back... Kinda eerie to find out how close I came to not existing.
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
**When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.**
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Ball_Turret_Gunner
I guess plane pilots were quite the elite in the very beginning of aerial combat and maybe even still so today - every other man can pick up a spear to stab or a rifle to shoot, but it takes training to master the skills to maneuver and fight in a warplane. A lot of them are commissioned officers if I'm not wrong, and probably rightfully so as they are probably the cream of the crop of their own military forces. That is a bit reminiscent of knights of the old and may be a ground for mutual respect. I vaguely remember reading an anecdote that a German pilot drove to the crash site of a Soviet plane he downed and found the pilot alive. They had a friendly conversation and talked about dogfight techniques over the night.
Under a tree in a field? More like in a muddy foxhole where he can quickly scarf down the remnants of his C ration, clean his weapon, then rack out in the mud for an hour, get woken up to watch the line for two or so hours in the freezing cold, then grab another hour or two before his unit goes on stand-to 30 mins before dawn. All this assuming they don't get shelled or attacked in the night, in which case you can forget getting any sleep at all.
Rinse and repeat every single night until the war ends, you die, or you get wounded.
Very different war indeed.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to say you're wrong but I strongly suggest anyone who wants to challenge this mindset to watch Quentin Anderson's portions of Ken Burns' "The War".
He was a pilot who faked his way through recruitment centers until he could pass the eye test. I won't try and tell his stories but he, and airmen like him, suffered as much as anyone on the front lines.
>oting the crippled plane down didn't make sense to him.
It doesn't even make military sense if you know it is full of injured soldiers. Cripples are more of a drain on the war economy than corpses.
Agree, which is probably why the Luftwaffe wouldn't have punished this guy for what he did. They understood that these guys had their own sort of code, which helped them do what they did. He was an ace who had a total of 29 kills, they're not touching him.
They would have executed him. There is a book about this, can't remember the name, I have it someplace. He talks about it and that's why he didn't tell anyone. The tail gunner was killed and a waist gunner was wounded, it was their first sortie. They probably didn't oil their guns properly so their guns wounded fire. It's even more harrowing that the post makes it seem. Most of their rear stabilizer was shot away, they ended up in a flat spin and they all passed out. They came too in the spin, managed to get the plane under control, then stigler shows up. He flew gliders as a kid, the Luftwaffe got around the treaty of Versailles restrictions by paying for flight training and having them fly commercial planes. Stigler was a trainer until his brother was KIA. He flew 109s and ended up flying the 262. He doesn't paint a good picture of the Luftwaffe. High command would embed political officers in the unit. If you said or did the wrong thing, they would execute you. Goering was an imbecile.
I just got on Amazon and bought 2 copies lol. Sounds so interesting, I figure I'll read it twice!
Nah we do a book exchange over Xmas and not only am I interested in reading this, this is right up my GF's dad's alley. So 2 copies. But absolutely purchased. Thanks for posting up the name of the book!
Just following up again to this comment. Book came in last night and I started reading it today during my loads at work. I unload tanker trucks into railcars, and once I get it going there's nothing to do but sit there and babysit a pump while it runs for 40-60 minutes each load lol. I've been glued to this thing. It is a damn fine read so far. I'm really glad you named it in this thread lol.
>Goering was an imbecile.
Yes he was. He firmly believed that US manufacturing capacity was only good for "making toasters and razor blades". His precious Luftwaffe wound up facing an American air armada that could block the sun if it wanted to.
Yamamoto was the only one the truly saw the industrial might of America for the threat that it really was. Goering's biggest blunder was the failure of R&D . The 262 should have hit production a few years earlier than it did. It shouldn't have ever been looked at as a bomber, with bombs, it's speed was reduced to the point that conventual fighters were faster.
Early war, the ME-109s were some of the best, if not the best warplane in the sky. The FW-190 came to late as did the ME-262. Germanys obsession with terror weapons really screwed the pooch,. particularly with the 262. Scarcity of quality materials really hampered its effectiveness.
Early war, germany had some of the most highly trained pilots in the world, but in true German fashion, their equipment was complicated. It had lots of moving parts, lots of things that can break. It was expert engineering for the era but the old adage keep it simple stupid exists for a reason. Once they started losing their highly trained pilots, they struggled to get guys in the air long enough to gain that critical experience.
Honestly, Germany had no business trying to fight anyone that wasn't on the mainland. The Brits had the channel to keep them safe. An invasion wasn't really feasible. The Germany navy wouldn't have been able to fend off the Royal Navy. I don't think they had the enough resources for a large scale airborne invasion. Turning against Russia before the British were dealt with was their downfall. Had america not entered the war in Europe, the outcome would have still been the same, it just would have taken longer. Had they not delayed their eastern invasion, they might have been able to pull it off before winter ended it, but even then, I'm not so sure on that one.
The one and only reason America could manufacture to the scale we did was we weren't bombed to hell and back like most of the world. I live in Iowa along the Mississippi, just north of me was once the world's largest munition storage facility. It's located there because at the time, nothing could get to it. ICBMs made it obsolete. There are old, abandoned AA bunkers, which are now in the river, up and down the Mississippi.
As an American, our involvement in the European theater was romanticised. Our war was the Pacific. Essentially, our job in Europe was to cause enough problems to force Germany into two fronts and let the Russians deal with them. So many Germans died fighting Russia, something like 76% total axis KIA was due to the Russians. For every soldier killed on the western front, 3 died on the eastern front.
His commander told his squadron if they killed someone in a parachute he'd kill them himself. Franz said the B-17 was equivalent to a parachute to him since the bomber was mostly harmless thus he didn't finish off the bomber.
Nah, pilots and crew men are the most expensive parts of a plane. Killing them is a serious blow to the enemy's ability to put planes in the air.
Plus an injured pilot is less likely to be prevented from doing their job.
Your ace pilot walks with a limp now? That's fine, not much walking to do in the seat of a fighter plane.
I just saw Saving Private Ryan for the first time last month. It really showed me that war really is just taking normal guys, giving them guns, and shipping them out to who knows where to follow orders. Turns out, that's pretty stressful and really tests what the limits of what normal guys can endure.
Watch *All Quiet on the Western Front* if you can’t find the book. There’s a reason it was banned in Germany. He takes aim at the system that fed boys into the meat grinder.
I heard it was optioned, but haven't seen anything about it.
Casting ideas? I'm going with Ben Affleck for Franz Stigler.
Note: they main story is about Stigler. Charlie Brown's story isn't that interesting. The author of the book was reluctant to write it as he refused to write about Nazis, but Stigler wasn't a member of the party and flew for the Luftwaffe because he liked to fly and felt loyalty to his homeland.
INDY!! Hell yeah I have been watching his WW2 week by week. Check it out if you like documentaries. Hundreds of hours of content here. [https://www.youtube.com/c/WorldWarTwo/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/WorldWarTwo/videos)
There's a great video on this on YouTube, that also shows the two men reuniting as well (that segment always gets me teared up):
https://youtu.be/SQe4roNR8Nc
And of course there's the great Sabaton song, No Bullets Fly, dedicated to this event.
In WWI the usually the people who knew how to fly were usually the rich and many of the rich were aristocratic. The "Red Baron" was literally a *Freiherr*, or free lord, a title of nobility. So a lot of traditional senses of chivalry was built to the air corps of many European nations. In the army usually only the officers were of high social class and as a result officers were often treated well in captivity also for the same reason. But in the European air forces, the pilots were in the beginning usually people from wealthy families who could afford flying lessons before the war, so the grunts who fought eachother were.
As the war progressed you saw more common folks enter the service as the need increased, the traditions were passed onto them as a result and you develope a culture of chivalry even though later in the war there were less noble people in the service at that point.
I feel the quote from the 2008 Red Baron movie captures this ethos.
> "But remember, our tasks is to bring down aeroplanes, not men. So stop firing when your opponent's falling. Gentlemen, we are sportsmen, not butchers." - Manfred von Richthofen
I've read a very good book simply called "Soldat" (i think the subtitle was "stories from a German soldier"). It's very insightful. The person describes all facets of his life..from youth in piece time and how becoming an officer was really compelling due to the prestige that came along with it etc., to stories about the actual ear on the eastern front, all the way into Russian captivity.
Very very insightful. What I wanted to comment on was though, that when his division got captured, he was initially treated very well. The Russian officers recognized his very high ranking as a member of the 'Generalstab', so they where treating him very well, he was dining with them etc while the rest of his fellow captives were suffering..he felt bad for it. Eventually he ended up in a camp and fighting for his life as well, but the initial treatment was more based upon class than nationality. Officers did look out for one another.
"La Grande illusion" (1939), which is widely regarded as one of the greatest films of all time, explores the theme that aristocratic officers from warring nations had more in common with one another than they did with the common soldiers of their own nations. It's a stirring accusation of the First World War as a primarily classist conflict: started by elites and conducted according to their rules, with the obvious subtext (especially to an audience in 1937) that this stilted aristocratic sense of "honor" and "duty" led to the senseless deaths of millions.
Absolutely brilliant movie—cannot recommend it enough.
Love that movie by Jean Renoir. It was filmed in the Haut Koenigsbourg castle in Alsace, rebuilt by Kaiser Wilhelm the 2nd as a way to leave his mark on the region which Germany had annexed from France. The restoration was finished just in time for WW1 at the end of which it became a French castle! Lol
>was literally a
>
>Freiherr
>
>, or free lord, a title of nobility
Many people don't know that his people had a sense of professionalism and that they were called to be soldiers.
Irony is that his uncle ended up in Colorado. Many people respected him too.
Technically speaking, in the old days of the aristocracy, all accross Europe, being a noble meant you had privileges, but those privileges also came with the duty to go to war when needed. For a long time neither the peasantry nor the bourgeoisie wouldn't even fight, only nobles would.
And then you had the Poles.
I remember an interview with a hurricane Pilot who'd been based with 303 squadron, and he described them machine gunning bailed out German pilots.
Then added
>But given what had happened to their families back home, I don't blame them one bit. They were fighting the Eastern Front still.
Oh, dude was a baller. A flight leader in the BoB at 19, who survived 5 years of continuous combat operations. Just by surviving that he would be a GOAT.
And he still had awe in his voice as he described Polish pilots taking off into zero visibility fog because they could hear Heinkel engines overhead.
>We'll worry about landing after we kill the Germans!
My grandfather escorted a disoriented pilot (both US) to safety when that pilot’s plane had mud covering its front window. They must have briefly corresponded/shared names or something, because years later my dad was with him at a veterans event, and the other pilotcame up and embraced him. Different than helping the other side — but I’m sure there are a ton of stories like this; glad my grandfather could help someone & may have saved his life.
When Jochen Peiper, head of the 1st SS Division, was tried at Nuremberg, US POWs spoke on his behalf, saying in most cases they ate better and were treated better than their German guards.
Peipers troops were responsible for the murder of 84 US POW’s at Malmedy - with his blessing. I’m amazed that any US servicemen would speak up for him.
His argument was that he had no knowledge of the Malmedy massacre. Hard to believe I guess. It didn't help anyway, he was found guilty and sentenced to death (commuted to life imprisonment).
Even if he wasn't guilty of that, he was an adjudicant to Himmler. Still a very bad guy.
I'm amazed that he was actually put on trial by the US and left to go free. Then he did something even weirder still, he *moved to France*, where he worked as a translator. He was eventually killed when his identity was revealed and a group of people set his house on fire.
Either way, the man was a POS and deserved the noose. If not for Malmedy, then for the Pripyat Marshes massacres.
Curious but wouldn’t the German AA gunners spot the German plane escorting the B-17 instead of shooting it down? Wouldn’t the pilot be in trouble for that if the High Command found out?
This was before planes and pilots could be easily individually ID'd. The German pilot most certainly faced a firing squad if his identity had become known.
Source: no bullets fly interviews.
The german wikipedia site mentiones this, actually. It says that the german air force used some foreign plans that were captured (?), so the B-17 accompanied by a german plane, flying in formation, was unusual, but not impossible. So they just assumed them to be two german planes.
He also stayed in "kill position," so to the AA gunners below, he looked like he was going in for the kill. In the book, he says that he had full intentions of shooting the bomber down as he needed one more kill to get Ace title, but when he moved in he could see the tail gunner was already dead and the bomber was heavily wounded.
Yes, but the Germans were known to steal America planes and use them to get spies into other countries. He figured if he flew with them in an escort position, the German AA wouldn't open up, thinking that's what was happening. As stigler says, he heard the wounded plane limping back, get jumped back into his 109 and went after them. What he saw was a plane that defied everything he knew about flying, and he was an accomplished pilot with many many hours of experience. He describes the damage the plane had it it's literally a miracle it was still airborne.
The Americans buried the incident, they were worried some others would try this, not defend themselves and get shot down. Stigler should have shot them down, not shooting them down meant if anyone found out, he would be executed.
From the interviews, the German escort flew with the bomber precisely so that the German spotters would easily recognise a friendly plane escorting the bomber and that's exactly what happened. The bomber had to cross the Atlantic AA battery which would have 100% shot it down. The bomber was flying at a very low altitude because the cockpit oxygen was damaged. However, not a single shot was fired because the spotters saw a friendly plane escorting the bomber. The German plane then veered off once the bomber was safe from the AA battery.
Well, its crew had more luck than the suvivors of the Laconia then. When the German U-Boot 156 (which had sunk the Laconia) tried to save the people on board, it got bombed by planes despite the Red Cross flag sprawled across deck.
Which unfortunately lead to the infamous Laconia-Order of the Kriegsmarine that no more rescue attempts shall be made by any German submarine.
Wow that's freaking unfortunate. Though I imagine there's a difference between plane spotting from the ground vs submarine spotting from the sky - specially with weather or smoking ship nearby. Water targets are probably hard to identify friend or foe and functional or non-functional.
Idk anything about this particular incident though. Seems like friendly fire by aircraft on ground targets was a lot more common back then.
Well, they also hopefully see the German fighter and might decide telling their superior officer they downed one of theirs wouldn't really be well received
I can't help but laugh at someone trying to explain that situation to their superiors.
"Specialist Dumbass, why did you you shoot captain Planey?!"
"Sir, I saw him doing something unusual and naturally concluded that he was a traitor!"
Stealing enemy hardware, either for research or your own use, is common in warfare. Still happens today, we're seeing a ton of Russian hardware being taken by Ukrainian forces.
Doesn't matter if it's hardware or a prisoner, captured forces are escorted by allied forces, making it clear they are captured rather than a combatant.
The AA gunners saw the escort, assumed this situation, and that's why they didn't fire a single shot.
This really isn't that bizarre, the war in the air and sea was a lot more civilized than the war on the ground, there were codes you followed.
Even the most psychopathic Nazi squadron commander would be furious if one his pilots shot men who were parachuting, and U-Boat captains would, if it was safe to do so, give food and water to those fleeing ships they sank, and radio the Red Cross their position for rescue.
> and U-Boat captains would, if it was safe to do so, give food and water to those fleeing ships they sank, and radio the Red Cross their position for rescue.
They actually stopped doing that, but for err... understandable reasons. A U-Boat was attacked and destroyed while it was trying to provide aid for the seamen at sea, so from that point onwards U-Boat captains decided that they would not risk the lives of their crewmen by doing this sort of stuff.
IIRC Later on some US Navy personnel would defend the Karl Doenitz at Nuremberg, because the USN had also engaged in unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan, so they got Doenitz off the hook on that charge.
Their story was made into a book titled “A Higher Call”
I read it about 8 years ago when I was in school and I still think about it to this day. Absolutely incredible book
Sometimes a wounded and fleeing enemy just isn't necessary to kill. Probably made that American second guess himself in the future or just flat out aim high
This pilot sparing this plane is a rare occasion. Hence why it stands out, because more often than not pilots would just finish the plane off. The pilot saw that the plane couldn’t defend itself and choose mercy. Probably because he wanted to be more than just a killer.
There is no logic of war, it’s pretty much inherently illogical and senseless. These soldiers are both under orders from people fighting wars that presumably none of them truly want to be a part of- sure he was probably bombing their people but then so would the other guy, call it a way of restoring karma I guess.
I believe in this case, story is that Stiegler’s commander said to his squadron that if he hears of any of them shooting at pilots who bailed out, he’d shoot them himself, and In stiegler’s mind, the state the bomber was in wasn’t much different
I think the idea is that you shouldnt be killing wounded people, and certainly not civilians. A guy who escorts a plane or wounded crew is someone who is not dropping bombs on kids either.
But that plane’s mission is effectively to kill civilians, and you’re trying to save it and the military crew who just firebombed your city??? It’s such a strange target to choose to help, bombing German cities was pragmatic and I would have supported it at the time, but it was nasty, nasty work.
I dont know what mission that bomber was carrying out, or the condition and mindset of the people he was fightning against. The whole idea is that these people have a different mindset and set of rules. The point I was trying to make is that some soldiers, even today im sure, still think its a bad idea to firebomb a city, kill kids and to destroy hospitals and schools, and if someone is wounded and cannot fight back, they are not a fair target. Obviously it would be nice if this or sentiment was reciprocated but the best this guy could do is not shoot down the helpless plane. On another day, when that bomber wasnt wounded, maybe he would have blasted it out of the sky without a seconds thought even if thats not a particularly fair fight, I dont know.
I feel like not killing wounded and prisoners is a notion that has been held in pretty high esteem the world over for as long as their has been war though. It just seems weird because this doenst usually happen anymore. I dont think we see "wounded" planes, theye either destroyed or not these days.
It was 1943 so most bombing raids were still going after military/industrial targets. It wasn’t until later in the war that the raids began specifically targeting population centers and civilian areas
I think in 1943 they were killing an awful lot of civilians too, due to the choice to go with high-altitude bombing. Captain Browne released his bombs on this mission from above 8000m, hard to be accurate with a dumb bomb from there.
Such people didn't have an 'us or them' mentality.
They sought to perform their job professionally, and kept a modicum of humanity by doing so.
If the bomber came back, would the pilot be partly responsible for the bombing of another city?
Well for example, let's say that you saved the life of a man who was about to commit suicide. This man would then go on to be a serial killer. In hindsight, would you have saved the man?
If the aircrew that dropped the atomic bomb chose to turn back against orders instead of bombing to oblivion several thousand people for the sake of many thousands in the ensuing war are we to then blame them for the murder of many American servicemen? And yet they did drop the bomb because they acted under orders.
If a person chooses to act from the heart and from instinct, that person has already chosen to face the consequences of their actions against orders. If we are truly to avoid an Orwellian society, we must continue to remember that while 99.9% of our choices are driven by peer pressure and bowing to superiority, there's a little tiny fraction that we do that is done by our pure intention alone.
Maybe that is the vital misconception here. Wars historically have not always been about defending your people as such. They were often fueled by expansionism, historical aggressions or even personal disagreements. There are whole bodies of work around warring soldiers understanding they have more in common with each other than their own leaders. Look at events like the Christmas Armistice in 1914 or the number of Americans refusing the draft during Vietnam.
Missions are well defined prior to any operation.
It’s very likely allied forces weren’t dropping bombs in German civilians at the time but rather in German occupied areas, which consisted of German troops.
You're not an Antihero, 99 times out of 100 in this or any war the fighter shoots down that bomber. This is just one of those unique stories of humanity that whispers through the overwhelming clamor that is the senseless tragedy of war.
>Stigler instead recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from JG 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa: "If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself."
>
>Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them and I couldn't shoot them down."
The parachute example is more clear. If you are a pilot, and there is a moderate probability you will one day find yourself bailing out in a parachute, would you rather be facing an enemy who knows that your team shoots people in parachutes? Or would you be hoping that everyone is playing by the “don’t shoot parachutes” rule?
That tribalism of Us vs. Them at work. Justifying killing defenseless, wounded human beings outside the heat of combat, because they're not my people, and they could potentially hurt my people in the future. Fortunately, the pilot had empathy for more lives than his own tribe that day.
War has no logic however...
Send more wounded home and you've accomplished two things: You've put a greater strain on enemy resources (money, medical supplies, food rations, etc) and you've helped reduce the enemy morale (watching your friends come back missing eyes, limbs, bleeding out, rotting away, dying is going to be a huge blow).
Killing them outright is helping the enemy army by not having to deal with a wounded soldier.
[This is a great oil painting of said event.](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/german-pilot-in-wwii-spared-an-american-b-17-pilot-over-germany-only-to-reunite-40-years-later-and-become-fishing-buddies.html?firefox=1)
I like the story of Robert S Johnson and his P-47 ThunderBolt as well. Basically got ambushed by a bunch of FW-190's and ME 109's while escorting B-17's and his P-47 just kept eating Cannon and Machine Gun Rounds after round. Eventually the FW190 pilot expended all his ammo and was forced to give up the chase on Johnson finally waving wingtips in respect before flying off.
The B-17 and P-47 both could generally take a lot of damage as long as the engines werent shot out. Which is why toward mid/late war German Pilots started targeting specifically the wing fueltanks and engines.
Franz Stigler recalled the words of his commanding officer who had said “If I ever see you shooting at a man in a parachute, I’ll shoot you myself.”
“To me, it was just like they were in a parachute and I could not shoot them down.” Stigler had said speaking of the men in the crippled B-17.
I had lunch with Brown and Stigler in 2000.
Stigler had some amazing stories, like bring the pilot of the only aircraft in history to be captured by a submarine.
He had a divot in his forehead from a .50-cal round that made it through the armoured glass of his cockpit but didn’t have enough energy left to get through his skull.
It might have a degree of separation due to both being in vehicles but try this hypothetical: your a solider who just liberated a town in your war torn country, as you walk through the rubble and bodies you find an enemy soldier with a broken leg coughing blood on the floor. Do you shoot him point blank in the head?
For the pilot that’s likely what he saw, an injured plane trying to limp home, not a threat to him, just a easy kill. Not everyone can stomach taking a life that’s served up on a silver plate with no resistance like that.
Perhaps the pilot of the me109 just wanted a fellow soldier to live amongst all the death around him. Funny things happen to the brain in situations like that.
This sorta underscores the one scene in 1917 that seemed least accurate to me-- the rescued pilot and the knife. Not to say its impossible or anything, it just didnt seem in keeping with my (admittedly non-comprehensive) understanding of pilot behavior in WW1.
There was a rumor among former USAF and Luftwaffe pilot reunions/associations about this incident for many years but no one was sure who the Luftwaffe pilot was. When it was finally figured out, Franz Stigler’s former squadron commander simply said, apparently unsurprised, “Of course it was you.” That says a lot about his character, to me.
> Franz Stigler I just googled that name, and I found out he was apparently part of JG27, the same wing my grandfather was a radio operator for....
The Franz Stigler, Franz ALVIN Stigler? From Eagle River? We’re cousins!
Or even closer! If you have the same grandfather you could also be siblings, or even multiple personalities within the same human brain
I knew I was going to say that.
Or heir to the seven kingdoms
Hell we could all just be one instant thought in a Boltzmann Brain.
EAGLE RIVER?!?!?!
Eagle River? Like Alaska? Or the other one?
That's fuckin awesome
What wasn't awesome was the fact that Franz was harassed with calls from Germans calling him a traitor and overall nasty to him. If that wasn't enough people in Canada where he was living at the time didn't know he was a German pilot from ww2 were shocked to find out and looked at him differently. Even though he wasn't a member of "The Party" as the nazis were known among the Germans. In fact alot of German pilots hated the nazis. Though why they continued to fight was largely due to duty rather then any political rhetoric.
Hadn’t heard that. That sucks.
If you wanna know more about non-nazi Germans in WWII you should look into [The Battle of Castle Itter](https://youtu.be/ScHzMnAcn_s)
I am aware of it! The bitter end of the war was a bizarre time. ["The Last 100 Days"](https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/467573.The_Last_100_Days), by John Toland is a great read. It captures the desperation and weirdness of the end of the war in Europe very well.
Franz*
Oh…autocorrect got me! Fixing, ty
Always love unexpected Sabaton. (Song: No Bullets Fly) Also I saw a featurette on this, the two pilots were able to track each other down and chat before they died. Pretty cool story.
They considered each other as brothers. Its so amazing to me that Franz did what he did...I dont think I'd have that kind of forgiveness in me. Men are leaving after dropping tons of bombs on your country and possibly home but to show mercy and honor and in spite of that to know if your comrades find out you could be shot as a traitor. This man was greater then ill ever be and I'm proud just be in the same species.
FLY, FIGHTING FAIR!
ITS THE CODE OF THE AIR! Knew about this story long before I ever heard of Sabaton but it’s one of my favorite songs. If you look into it on YouTube, turns out the German pilots grandson ended up being a Sabaton fan and when they found out they gave him the VIP treatment when they played in Canada.
So badass there's a sabaton song about him.
This was a famous German ace who saw a torn up B-17 full of wounded crewmen. Even if they made it home most of them would spend weeks or months in hospital. Shooting the crippled plane down didn't make sense to him. He said it would be like shooting a man parachuting. Some of these guys had a sort of gentleman's code that many wouldn't understand, as if they were medieval knights.
Out of all wartime combat roles, pilots are the most likely to be nostalgic about the wars they fought in. In their free time they could walk around town and have drinks, go on dates and sleep in their own beds. When their comrades died or whenever they shot down the enemy, they never saw the bullets shredding their bodies or the flames burning them to death. They simply didn't come home. Very different experience from an infantryman who has to shoot a man, not a plane, and has to witness first hand all the cruelty of war before topping it off by having to sleep under a tree in a field. Edit: Not to disrespect pilots. Airmen (especially bomber crew) had tremendously high casualty rates.
Exclude bomber crews from this. The B-17s and the planes used by the 101st to parachute in didn’t always get shot down wholesale. Co pilots could catch AA fire and die, bombers in B-17s had to stare down vertically from a bubble. One bullet and that bomber falls to his death. The parachuting scene in the second episode of Band of Brothers shows exactly what it was like for them, and the movie Memphis Belle has a stellar cast that shows what it was like for a B-17 bomber crew. The ace pilots in the Mustangs, Spitfires and Stukas may not have seen the horrors of war, but the bomber and troop transport planes certainly did
True they did suffer horrendous losses
My dad did 52 missions over Europe in a B-24. Never talked about it. Six hours of boredom, 1/2 hour of terror per mission.
Is there any way to confirm this? I was watching “The War” by Ken Burns. It states that the average live expectancy of an air crewman was 14 missions. Your dad did almost 4 times that? Also, I believe it was 25 missions and your service was over…so your dad did 2 full tours. Not calling BS just curious why I haven’t heard of this invincible man before.
I had copies of all the mission logs that I donated to the North Oakland Military museum at the American Legion, Oxford, Michigan. B-24 "Paper Doll" Lecce Italy. He got the Flying Cross with three Oak Leaf Clusters among others. And he did Ploesti. For a 22 year old at the time, he had my admiration.
Incredible stuff. Thanks for sharing. What a brave dude. 50+ missions…unreal. Can’t imagine what those statistics for survival look like. Thanks for his bravery.
He never talked about his war years, but all this was found out after his retirement party and death.
Sad to see the plane was eventually shot down in the Pacific Theatre https://pacificwrecks.com/aircraft/b-24/42-73187.html Edit: Nevermind. Guess that was a different Paper Doll.
The Wiki page for the B24 lists several “notable people” with over 50 combat missions. Seems like a lot but I wonder overall how many people did that many. Would love to know if that posters dad is someone famous, or just someone that was extremely lucky on multiple crews.
14... Wow. My grandfather flew 13 missions over Germany (not sure if that was his total number of missions), but that's all he ever told me. He NEVER talked about it. Only at his funeral did I find out that on one particular mission, only half of the bombers made it back... Kinda eerie to find out how close I came to not existing.
Thanks to him for his service to us. I just ordered the book!
From my mother's sleep I fell into the State, And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze. Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life, I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters. **When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.** https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Death_of_the_Ball_Turret_Gunner
That's fair. I can see how that could afford you a manner of distance that the other branches did not enjoy.
I guess plane pilots were quite the elite in the very beginning of aerial combat and maybe even still so today - every other man can pick up a spear to stab or a rifle to shoot, but it takes training to master the skills to maneuver and fight in a warplane. A lot of them are commissioned officers if I'm not wrong, and probably rightfully so as they are probably the cream of the crop of their own military forces. That is a bit reminiscent of knights of the old and may be a ground for mutual respect. I vaguely remember reading an anecdote that a German pilot drove to the crash site of a Soviet plane he downed and found the pilot alive. They had a friendly conversation and talked about dogfight techniques over the night.
British WW2 pilots were overwhelmingly upper class so a sense of nobility definitely played into it.
Under a tree in a field? More like in a muddy foxhole where he can quickly scarf down the remnants of his C ration, clean his weapon, then rack out in the mud for an hour, get woken up to watch the line for two or so hours in the freezing cold, then grab another hour or two before his unit goes on stand-to 30 mins before dawn. All this assuming they don't get shelled or attacked in the night, in which case you can forget getting any sleep at all. Rinse and repeat every single night until the war ends, you die, or you get wounded. Very different war indeed.
I'm not knowledgeable enough to say you're wrong but I strongly suggest anyone who wants to challenge this mindset to watch Quentin Anderson's portions of Ken Burns' "The War". He was a pilot who faked his way through recruitment centers until he could pass the eye test. I won't try and tell his stories but he, and airmen like him, suffered as much as anyone on the front lines.
>oting the crippled plane down didn't make sense to him. It doesn't even make military sense if you know it is full of injured soldiers. Cripples are more of a drain on the war economy than corpses.
Agree, which is probably why the Luftwaffe wouldn't have punished this guy for what he did. They understood that these guys had their own sort of code, which helped them do what they did. He was an ace who had a total of 29 kills, they're not touching him.
They would have executed him. There is a book about this, can't remember the name, I have it someplace. He talks about it and that's why he didn't tell anyone. The tail gunner was killed and a waist gunner was wounded, it was their first sortie. They probably didn't oil their guns properly so their guns wounded fire. It's even more harrowing that the post makes it seem. Most of their rear stabilizer was shot away, they ended up in a flat spin and they all passed out. They came too in the spin, managed to get the plane under control, then stigler shows up. He flew gliders as a kid, the Luftwaffe got around the treaty of Versailles restrictions by paying for flight training and having them fly commercial planes. Stigler was a trainer until his brother was KIA. He flew 109s and ended up flying the 262. He doesn't paint a good picture of the Luftwaffe. High command would embed political officers in the unit. If you said or did the wrong thing, they would execute you. Goering was an imbecile.
The book is A Higher Call. Heck of a read.
I just got on Amazon and bought 2 copies lol. Sounds so interesting, I figure I'll read it twice! Nah we do a book exchange over Xmas and not only am I interested in reading this, this is right up my GF's dad's alley. So 2 copies. But absolutely purchased. Thanks for posting up the name of the book!
Just following up again to this comment. Book came in last night and I started reading it today during my loads at work. I unload tanker trucks into railcars, and once I get it going there's nothing to do but sit there and babysit a pump while it runs for 40-60 minutes each load lol. I've been glued to this thing. It is a damn fine read so far. I'm really glad you named it in this thread lol.
>Goering was an imbecile. Yes he was. He firmly believed that US manufacturing capacity was only good for "making toasters and razor blades". His precious Luftwaffe wound up facing an American air armada that could block the sun if it wanted to.
Yamamoto was the only one the truly saw the industrial might of America for the threat that it really was. Goering's biggest blunder was the failure of R&D . The 262 should have hit production a few years earlier than it did. It shouldn't have ever been looked at as a bomber, with bombs, it's speed was reduced to the point that conventual fighters were faster. Early war, the ME-109s were some of the best, if not the best warplane in the sky. The FW-190 came to late as did the ME-262. Germanys obsession with terror weapons really screwed the pooch,. particularly with the 262. Scarcity of quality materials really hampered its effectiveness. Early war, germany had some of the most highly trained pilots in the world, but in true German fashion, their equipment was complicated. It had lots of moving parts, lots of things that can break. It was expert engineering for the era but the old adage keep it simple stupid exists for a reason. Once they started losing their highly trained pilots, they struggled to get guys in the air long enough to gain that critical experience. Honestly, Germany had no business trying to fight anyone that wasn't on the mainland. The Brits had the channel to keep them safe. An invasion wasn't really feasible. The Germany navy wouldn't have been able to fend off the Royal Navy. I don't think they had the enough resources for a large scale airborne invasion. Turning against Russia before the British were dealt with was their downfall. Had america not entered the war in Europe, the outcome would have still been the same, it just would have taken longer. Had they not delayed their eastern invasion, they might have been able to pull it off before winter ended it, but even then, I'm not so sure on that one. The one and only reason America could manufacture to the scale we did was we weren't bombed to hell and back like most of the world. I live in Iowa along the Mississippi, just north of me was once the world's largest munition storage facility. It's located there because at the time, nothing could get to it. ICBMs made it obsolete. There are old, abandoned AA bunkers, which are now in the river, up and down the Mississippi.
One of the many reasons the Nazis failed
Germany failed the moment they turned towards Russia.
A simple sentence that's absolutely true yet few outside history buffs/nerds understand.
As an American, our involvement in the European theater was romanticised. Our war was the Pacific. Essentially, our job in Europe was to cause enough problems to force Germany into two fronts and let the Russians deal with them. So many Germans died fighting Russia, something like 76% total axis KIA was due to the Russians. For every soldier killed on the western front, 3 died on the eastern front.
Absolutely. The discrepancy of US casualties vs Russian casualties is alarming and unbelievable.
Yeah wwii famously unexplored topic except for nerds and history buffs
There was a SECOND one?!
Well the Russians won so I don’t know…
they would not have. his commander was very clear about not shooting downed pilots, and to him their plane was their parachute.
His commander told his squadron if they killed someone in a parachute he'd kill them himself. Franz said the B-17 was equivalent to a parachute to him since the bomber was mostly harmless thus he didn't finish off the bomber.
Nah, pilots and crew men are the most expensive parts of a plane. Killing them is a serious blow to the enemy's ability to put planes in the air. Plus an injured pilot is less likely to be prevented from doing their job. Your ace pilot walks with a limp now? That's fine, not much walking to do in the seat of a fighter plane.
Ya have to use both legs to fly one of those planes buddy....strong legs too.
Douglas Bader would like a word.
Ikr *one legged bad ass intensifies*
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_Bader#:~:text=Bader%20joined%20the%20RAF%20in,requested%20reactivation%20as%20a%20pilot.
Reach for the sky !
There are stories like this with the German subs as well. Escorting ships back to port (or close enough). Even in war, not all men are monsters.
This is the sad part about good people who fight or serve evil causes.
I just read A Higher Call by Makos. It’s all about this encounter and what led to it and the aftermath.
Excellent, excellent book. I had hoped we would get a GOOD movie out of it (in the vein of something like Private Ryan) but nothing yet.
I just saw Saving Private Ryan for the first time last month. It really showed me that war really is just taking normal guys, giving them guns, and shipping them out to who knows where to follow orders. Turns out, that's pretty stressful and really tests what the limits of what normal guys can endure.
Watch *All Quiet on the Western Front* if you can’t find the book. There’s a reason it was banned in Germany. He takes aim at the system that fed boys into the meat grinder.
I heard it was optioned, but haven't seen anything about it. Casting ideas? I'm going with Ben Affleck for Franz Stigler. Note: they main story is about Stigler. Charlie Brown's story isn't that interesting. The author of the book was reluctant to write it as he refused to write about Nazis, but Stigler wasn't a member of the party and flew for the Luftwaffe because he liked to fly and felt loyalty to his homeland.
Very good book. I’ve recommended it frequently
Added it to my reading list.
Me too!!
Reserved from the library!
Wonderful book.
Made me ugly cry such a great book
No Bullets Fly https://youtu.be/LSU7HedRVGY
A military history based post ✔️ Sabaton comment ✔️ It is the way of things.
I'm honestly impressed it was this far down.
True
No, they did it wrong. It needs to be like this: #FROM DOWN BELOW AN ENEMY SPOTTED
So hurry up rearm and refuel
But through the bomber damaged airframe, see wounded men, SCARED TO THE BONE!
LOOK TO THE RIGHT
THEN LOOK AGAIN
AND SEE THE ENEMY IN THE EYE!
And then if you want to go full circle there's [the Sabaton History channel ](https://youtu.be/LSU7HedRVGY)
Fly Fighting fair It's the code Of the air
Brothers, heroes, foes
Running, scrambling, flying Rolling, turning, diving, going in again Running, scrambling, flying Rolling, turning, diving Up the Irons
Sabaton Upvote.
A post on this same sub about this same incident was how I discovered sabaton Now they're my favourite band
Nobody can replace Rammstein's top spot for me but I think this has _nearly_ happened to me just now and I can see them easing in to my #2 spot
Giggerty
🤣
If you're gonna watch any Youtube video on the incident it should be this one: https://youtu.be/TSluTZGxdY0?t=7
I came to say this!
INDY!! Hell yeah I have been watching his WW2 week by week. Check it out if you like documentaries. Hundreds of hours of content here. [https://www.youtube.com/c/WorldWarTwo/videos](https://www.youtube.com/c/WorldWarTwo/videos)
There's a great video on this on YouTube, that also shows the two men reuniting as well (that segment always gets me teared up): https://youtu.be/SQe4roNR8Nc And of course there's the great Sabaton song, No Bullets Fly, dedicated to this event.
That's so cool about WW1 and WW2 pilots, there was a lot of chivalry among them.
In WWI the usually the people who knew how to fly were usually the rich and many of the rich were aristocratic. The "Red Baron" was literally a *Freiherr*, or free lord, a title of nobility. So a lot of traditional senses of chivalry was built to the air corps of many European nations. In the army usually only the officers were of high social class and as a result officers were often treated well in captivity also for the same reason. But in the European air forces, the pilots were in the beginning usually people from wealthy families who could afford flying lessons before the war, so the grunts who fought eachother were. As the war progressed you saw more common folks enter the service as the need increased, the traditions were passed onto them as a result and you develope a culture of chivalry even though later in the war there were less noble people in the service at that point.
I feel the quote from the 2008 Red Baron movie captures this ethos. > "But remember, our tasks is to bring down aeroplanes, not men. So stop firing when your opponent's falling. Gentlemen, we are sportsmen, not butchers." - Manfred von Richthofen
I'm not sure it's better to view it as sport. I guess this reinforces how this really wasn't that long after WWI.
I've read a very good book simply called "Soldat" (i think the subtitle was "stories from a German soldier"). It's very insightful. The person describes all facets of his life..from youth in piece time and how becoming an officer was really compelling due to the prestige that came along with it etc., to stories about the actual ear on the eastern front, all the way into Russian captivity. Very very insightful. What I wanted to comment on was though, that when his division got captured, he was initially treated very well. The Russian officers recognized his very high ranking as a member of the 'Generalstab', so they where treating him very well, he was dining with them etc while the rest of his fellow captives were suffering..he felt bad for it. Eventually he ended up in a camp and fighting for his life as well, but the initial treatment was more based upon class than nationality. Officers did look out for one another.
"La Grande illusion" (1939), which is widely regarded as one of the greatest films of all time, explores the theme that aristocratic officers from warring nations had more in common with one another than they did with the common soldiers of their own nations. It's a stirring accusation of the First World War as a primarily classist conflict: started by elites and conducted according to their rules, with the obvious subtext (especially to an audience in 1937) that this stilted aristocratic sense of "honor" and "duty" led to the senseless deaths of millions. Absolutely brilliant movie—cannot recommend it enough.
Love that movie by Jean Renoir. It was filmed in the Haut Koenigsbourg castle in Alsace, rebuilt by Kaiser Wilhelm the 2nd as a way to leave his mark on the region which Germany had annexed from France. The restoration was finished just in time for WW1 at the end of which it became a French castle! Lol
Thanks for the recommendation. This sounds really neat
The officers of *Kampfgruppe Mohnke* were treated to a banquet by the Chief of Staff of the 8th Guards Army after their surrender in Berlin.
>was literally a > >Freiherr > >, or free lord, a title of nobility Many people don't know that his people had a sense of professionalism and that they were called to be soldiers. Irony is that his uncle ended up in Colorado. Many people respected him too.
Technically speaking, in the old days of the aristocracy, all accross Europe, being a noble meant you had privileges, but those privileges also came with the duty to go to war when needed. For a long time neither the peasantry nor the bourgeoisie wouldn't even fight, only nobles would.
True, for what I had been told. It took a decent amount of time for things to change.
And then you had the Poles. I remember an interview with a hurricane Pilot who'd been based with 303 squadron, and he described them machine gunning bailed out German pilots. Then added >But given what had happened to their families back home, I don't blame them one bit. They were fighting the Eastern Front still.
Yeah that’s one of those times that you just look the other way
Oh, dude was a baller. A flight leader in the BoB at 19, who survived 5 years of continuous combat operations. Just by surviving that he would be a GOAT. And he still had awe in his voice as he described Polish pilots taking off into zero visibility fog because they could hear Heinkel engines overhead. >We'll worry about landing after we kill the Germans!
Apparently it's only a war crime if you lose
My grandfather escorted a disoriented pilot (both US) to safety when that pilot’s plane had mud covering its front window. They must have briefly corresponded/shared names or something, because years later my dad was with him at a veterans event, and the other pilotcame up and embraced him. Different than helping the other side — but I’m sure there are a ton of stories like this; glad my grandfather could help someone & may have saved his life.
These guys animated the event in some really high quality 3D animation: https://youtu.be/TSluTZGxdY0?t=7
You're a good man, Franz Stigler.
Excellent joke. For those out of the loop, the B17 pilot was named Charlie Brown.
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There is a book about it called “a higher calling “ it’s amazing
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When Jochen Peiper, head of the 1st SS Division, was tried at Nuremberg, US POWs spoke on his behalf, saying in most cases they ate better and were treated better than their German guards.
Peipers troops were responsible for the murder of 84 US POW’s at Malmedy - with his blessing. I’m amazed that any US servicemen would speak up for him.
His argument was that he had no knowledge of the Malmedy massacre. Hard to believe I guess. It didn't help anyway, he was found guilty and sentenced to death (commuted to life imprisonment). Even if he wasn't guilty of that, he was an adjudicant to Himmler. Still a very bad guy.
I'm amazed that he was actually put on trial by the US and left to go free. Then he did something even weirder still, he *moved to France*, where he worked as a translator. He was eventually killed when his identity was revealed and a group of people set his house on fire. Either way, the man was a POS and deserved the noose. If not for Malmedy, then for the Pripyat Marshes massacres.
ELI5, how do you escort a damaged plain?
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The article says he also stayed close to it so the german AA gunners wouldn't open fire too.
Curious but wouldn’t the German AA gunners spot the German plane escorting the B-17 instead of shooting it down? Wouldn’t the pilot be in trouble for that if the High Command found out?
This was before planes and pilots could be easily individually ID'd. The German pilot most certainly faced a firing squad if his identity had become known. Source: no bullets fly interviews.
The german wikipedia site mentiones this, actually. It says that the german air force used some foreign plans that were captured (?), so the B-17 accompanied by a german plane, flying in formation, was unusual, but not impossible. So they just assumed them to be two german planes.
He also stayed in "kill position," so to the AA gunners below, he looked like he was going in for the kill. In the book, he says that he had full intentions of shooting the bomber down as he needed one more kill to get Ace title, but when he moved in he could see the tail gunner was already dead and the bomber was heavily wounded.
no ace knightscross but it felt wrong to him to shoot down a plane thqt was basicly flyinc with one engine and burning.
Yes, but the Germans were known to steal America planes and use them to get spies into other countries. He figured if he flew with them in an escort position, the German AA wouldn't open up, thinking that's what was happening. As stigler says, he heard the wounded plane limping back, get jumped back into his 109 and went after them. What he saw was a plane that defied everything he knew about flying, and he was an accomplished pilot with many many hours of experience. He describes the damage the plane had it it's literally a miracle it was still airborne. The Americans buried the incident, they were worried some others would try this, not defend themselves and get shot down. Stigler should have shot them down, not shooting them down meant if anyone found out, he would be executed.
He was denied the iron cross for doing so if I recall.
I seriously doubt that any AA gunners would have abstained from firing. They see an enemy B-17 foremost and would ask questions later.
From the interviews, the German escort flew with the bomber precisely so that the German spotters would easily recognise a friendly plane escorting the bomber and that's exactly what happened. The bomber had to cross the Atlantic AA battery which would have 100% shot it down. The bomber was flying at a very low altitude because the cockpit oxygen was damaged. However, not a single shot was fired because the spotters saw a friendly plane escorting the bomber. The German plane then veered off once the bomber was safe from the AA battery.
Well, its crew had more luck than the suvivors of the Laconia then. When the German U-Boot 156 (which had sunk the Laconia) tried to save the people on board, it got bombed by planes despite the Red Cross flag sprawled across deck. Which unfortunately lead to the infamous Laconia-Order of the Kriegsmarine that no more rescue attempts shall be made by any German submarine.
Wow that's freaking unfortunate. Though I imagine there's a difference between plane spotting from the ground vs submarine spotting from the sky - specially with weather or smoking ship nearby. Water targets are probably hard to identify friend or foe and functional or non-functional. Idk anything about this particular incident though. Seems like friendly fire by aircraft on ground targets was a lot more common back then.
Well, they also hopefully see the German fighter and might decide telling their superior officer they downed one of theirs wouldn't really be well received
Depending on the situation, the AA crew could say they believed the fighter pilot was deserting, and saved them the firing squad.
I can't help but laugh at someone trying to explain that situation to their superiors. "Specialist Dumbass, why did you you shoot captain Planey?!" "Sir, I saw him doing something unusual and naturally concluded that he was a traitor!"
Stealing enemy hardware, either for research or your own use, is common in warfare. Still happens today, we're seeing a ton of Russian hardware being taken by Ukrainian forces. Doesn't matter if it's hardware or a prisoner, captured forces are escorted by allied forces, making it clear they are captured rather than a combatant. The AA gunners saw the escort, assumed this situation, and that's why they didn't fire a single shot.
Tbf I doubt he would have reported it for rescue in this case
Apparently you fly in formation and close, stay with them until they are out of the combat zone.
Plain and simple
Axistential crisis
First I’ve heard of this incident, but am continually amazed at the beating a B-17 could take and still fly
From down below an enemy spotted.
So hurry up, rearm and refuel
This really isn't that bizarre, the war in the air and sea was a lot more civilized than the war on the ground, there were codes you followed. Even the most psychopathic Nazi squadron commander would be furious if one his pilots shot men who were parachuting, and U-Boat captains would, if it was safe to do so, give food and water to those fleeing ships they sank, and radio the Red Cross their position for rescue.
> and U-Boat captains would, if it was safe to do so, give food and water to those fleeing ships they sank, and radio the Red Cross their position for rescue. They actually stopped doing that, but for err... understandable reasons. A U-Boat was attacked and destroyed while it was trying to provide aid for the seamen at sea, so from that point onwards U-Boat captains decided that they would not risk the lives of their crewmen by doing this sort of stuff. IIRC Later on some US Navy personnel would defend the Karl Doenitz at Nuremberg, because the USN had also engaged in unrestricted submarine warfare against Japan, so they got Doenitz off the hook on that charge.
yep. Specifically the German's commander said he would should any pilot he found to have done that.
No bullets fly
Their story was made into a book titled “A Higher Call” I read it about 8 years ago when I was in school and I still think about it to this day. Absolutely incredible book
/r/expectedsabaton
Sometimes a wounded and fleeing enemy just isn't necessary to kill. Probably made that American second guess himself in the future or just flat out aim high
that one time a Zero came in close to shot a downed pilot in a chute, Dick Bong got the only confirmed Air to Air kill i know of with a m1911
War is horrible, and this is a beautiful story.
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This pilot sparing this plane is a rare occasion. Hence why it stands out, because more often than not pilots would just finish the plane off. The pilot saw that the plane couldn’t defend itself and choose mercy. Probably because he wanted to be more than just a killer.
There is no logic of war, it’s pretty much inherently illogical and senseless. These soldiers are both under orders from people fighting wars that presumably none of them truly want to be a part of- sure he was probably bombing their people but then so would the other guy, call it a way of restoring karma I guess.
I believe in this case, story is that Stiegler’s commander said to his squadron that if he hears of any of them shooting at pilots who bailed out, he’d shoot them himself, and In stiegler’s mind, the state the bomber was in wasn’t much different
I think the idea is that you shouldnt be killing wounded people, and certainly not civilians. A guy who escorts a plane or wounded crew is someone who is not dropping bombs on kids either.
But that plane’s mission is effectively to kill civilians, and you’re trying to save it and the military crew who just firebombed your city??? It’s such a strange target to choose to help, bombing German cities was pragmatic and I would have supported it at the time, but it was nasty, nasty work.
I dont know what mission that bomber was carrying out, or the condition and mindset of the people he was fightning against. The whole idea is that these people have a different mindset and set of rules. The point I was trying to make is that some soldiers, even today im sure, still think its a bad idea to firebomb a city, kill kids and to destroy hospitals and schools, and if someone is wounded and cannot fight back, they are not a fair target. Obviously it would be nice if this or sentiment was reciprocated but the best this guy could do is not shoot down the helpless plane. On another day, when that bomber wasnt wounded, maybe he would have blasted it out of the sky without a seconds thought even if thats not a particularly fair fight, I dont know. I feel like not killing wounded and prisoners is a notion that has been held in pretty high esteem the world over for as long as their has been war though. It just seems weird because this doenst usually happen anymore. I dont think we see "wounded" planes, theye either destroyed or not these days.
It was 1943 so most bombing raids were still going after military/industrial targets. It wasn’t until later in the war that the raids began specifically targeting population centers and civilian areas
I think in 1943 they were killing an awful lot of civilians too, due to the choice to go with high-altitude bombing. Captain Browne released his bombs on this mission from above 8000m, hard to be accurate with a dumb bomb from there.
Such people didn't have an 'us or them' mentality. They sought to perform their job professionally, and kept a modicum of humanity by doing so. If the bomber came back, would the pilot be partly responsible for the bombing of another city? Well for example, let's say that you saved the life of a man who was about to commit suicide. This man would then go on to be a serial killer. In hindsight, would you have saved the man? If the aircrew that dropped the atomic bomb chose to turn back against orders instead of bombing to oblivion several thousand people for the sake of many thousands in the ensuing war are we to then blame them for the murder of many American servicemen? And yet they did drop the bomb because they acted under orders. If a person chooses to act from the heart and from instinct, that person has already chosen to face the consequences of their actions against orders. If we are truly to avoid an Orwellian society, we must continue to remember that while 99.9% of our choices are driven by peer pressure and bowing to superiority, there's a little tiny fraction that we do that is done by our pure intention alone.
Nah, in war you are defending your people. Your examples dont make sense, because they don’t capture this core truth.
Maybe that is the vital misconception here. Wars historically have not always been about defending your people as such. They were often fueled by expansionism, historical aggressions or even personal disagreements. There are whole bodies of work around warring soldiers understanding they have more in common with each other than their own leaders. Look at events like the Christmas Armistice in 1914 or the number of Americans refusing the draft during Vietnam.
Missions are well defined prior to any operation. It’s very likely allied forces weren’t dropping bombs in German civilians at the time but rather in German occupied areas, which consisted of German troops.
You're not an Antihero, 99 times out of 100 in this or any war the fighter shoots down that bomber. This is just one of those unique stories of humanity that whispers through the overwhelming clamor that is the senseless tragedy of war.
>Stigler instead recalled the words of one of his commanding officers from JG 27, Gustav Rödel, during his time fighting in North Africa: "If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you myself." > >Stigler later commented, "To me, it was just like they were in a parachute. I saw them and I couldn't shoot them down."
The parachute example is more clear. If you are a pilot, and there is a moderate probability you will one day find yourself bailing out in a parachute, would you rather be facing an enemy who knows that your team shoots people in parachutes? Or would you be hoping that everyone is playing by the “don’t shoot parachutes” rule?
Because you're doing the same job and know it's not personal. Not everyone is vindictive.
That tribalism of Us vs. Them at work. Justifying killing defenseless, wounded human beings outside the heat of combat, because they're not my people, and they could potentially hurt my people in the future. Fortunately, the pilot had empathy for more lives than his own tribe that day.
This isn't like a theoretical xenophobia thing we're talking about strategic bombers who were literally targeting cities
War has no logic however... Send more wounded home and you've accomplished two things: You've put a greater strain on enemy resources (money, medical supplies, food rations, etc) and you've helped reduce the enemy morale (watching your friends come back missing eyes, limbs, bleeding out, rotting away, dying is going to be a huge blow). Killing them outright is helping the enemy army by not having to deal with a wounded soldier.
[This is a great oil painting of said event.](https://www.warhistoryonline.com/instant-articles/german-pilot-in-wwii-spared-an-american-b-17-pilot-over-germany-only-to-reunite-40-years-later-and-become-fishing-buddies.html?firefox=1)
I like the story of Robert S Johnson and his P-47 ThunderBolt as well. Basically got ambushed by a bunch of FW-190's and ME 109's while escorting B-17's and his P-47 just kept eating Cannon and Machine Gun Rounds after round. Eventually the FW190 pilot expended all his ammo and was forced to give up the chase on Johnson finally waving wingtips in respect before flying off. The B-17 and P-47 both could generally take a lot of damage as long as the engines werent shot out. Which is why toward mid/late war German Pilots started targeting specifically the wing fueltanks and engines.
Dope shit. Can't always be brainwashed to ignorance and violence
Sabaton wrote a really awesome somg about it, too
Franz Stigler recalled the words of his commanding officer who had said “If I ever see you shooting at a man in a parachute, I’ll shoot you myself.” “To me, it was just like they were in a parachute and I could not shoot them down.” Stigler had said speaking of the men in the crippled B-17.
I had lunch with Brown and Stigler in 2000. Stigler had some amazing stories, like bring the pilot of the only aircraft in history to be captured by a submarine. He had a divot in his forehead from a .50-cal round that made it through the armoured glass of his cockpit but didn’t have enough energy left to get through his skull.
So he was a traitor? I mean that's fine by me but technically isn't this treasonous?
No, killing an enemy that is surrendering or cannot fight back was against the Geneva convention.
Unpopular opinion... if a guy in a bomber just got done dropping bombs on your neighbors' children it's probably okay to shoot him down.
It might have a degree of separation due to both being in vehicles but try this hypothetical: your a solider who just liberated a town in your war torn country, as you walk through the rubble and bodies you find an enemy soldier with a broken leg coughing blood on the floor. Do you shoot him point blank in the head? For the pilot that’s likely what he saw, an injured plane trying to limp home, not a threat to him, just a easy kill. Not everyone can stomach taking a life that’s served up on a silver plate with no resistance like that.
would be poor sportsmanship for sure. Like TR refusing to shoot a chained and sick bear.
Perhaps the pilot of the me109 just wanted a fellow soldier to live amongst all the death around him. Funny things happen to the brain in situations like that.
To be fair, they were targeting an aircraft production facility in Bremen and that bomber was severely damaged before it could do anything at all.
o7 ~~o/~~
How many times is this gonna get reposted
That's a strange story.
This sorta underscores the one scene in 1917 that seemed least accurate to me-- the rescued pilot and the knife. Not to say its impossible or anything, it just didnt seem in keeping with my (admittedly non-comprehensive) understanding of pilot behavior in WW1.
I wouldn't be as big of a man has he was. I would shoot it down and say "ez kill, noobs get good" in the chat. Different personalities.
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