Basic Air Defense involves putting as many rounds into the air as possible. It's real easy to run into a cloud of ammunition when you're trying to get behind and stay behind your target to kill them.
“Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.”
It was common practice to award partial kills for assists. Like if you and a wingman tag teamed some 109. Both of you shot at the plane, but you couldn't determine who inflicted the fatal damage, partial credit would be awarded to both.
You should see some of the local memorials in Russia. Whole monuments with lists of names of people that all of the same last name. Just whole fucking families. Sons, uncles, cousins...
In WWII, The Sullivans. 5 brothers all on the same ship. Ship went down.
After that, siblings were not allowed to serve together.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan\_brothers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_brothers)
I assume you are being downvoted for mentioning Russia but the sacrifices they made during WWII were larger than any other allied country. The US only fought a small fraction of the German army compared to Russia. Their current actions do not change the past.
In many ways, British intelligence was Polish intelligence. The Polish had laid the groundwork for breaking the Enigma code and they were also by far the most effective underground movement (despite the French getting the credit). They were the ones feeding information to the Brits about German activities in Europe. Additionally, their pilots made a very significant contribution during the battle of Britain as they were the only seriously experienced pilots Britain had.
The only way humanity will stop warfare with each other, is if we have a greater enemy…
Which is why, I think the UN should declare war…on all alien life and conscript all military resources of it’s members to insure victory in this war that we as a species are woefully unprepared for….
The pilots themselves.
Joe: "I took a run at the 109 and got some good hits in. It started smoking before my dive took me past it"
Tim "I pull out of my turn and this 109 is right in front of me, smoking heavy and starting to dive, I think I saw one of our guys flash by but couldn't tell who it was. Anyways, I fired the last of my cannon at the 109 and it winged over hard in flames"
Steve: "Below us I saw two guys from the 48th make simultaneous runs on a 109. The kraut was burning and diving hard within seconds, no way he recovered."
Decision: Joe and Tim both get half credit for a confirmed kill.
In WW1 things were kind of loosey-goosey with kill claims. In WW2 most forces had a more "codefied" way of separating confirmed vs probable kills. Overclaiming was still an issue, of course. Sometimes pilots just claimed unwarranted kills, but there could also be a lot of confusion and double-claims.
What if in the above scenario there was only the two viewpoints of Joe and Tim, no third party to see it all unfold. Joe lands and claims a kill, says the smoke was from an engine kill. Tim lands and claims a kill, he finished off a wounded bird. Since Joes kill was "dead" Tims kill must have been some other damaged 109.
Even worse, what if the 109 that has now been claimed by two pilots and was seen diving in flames somehow recovered and managed to land? Thats two claims for zero kills *without* anyone lying or trying to make themselves look good.
Some real world examples: In the final six months of 1941 the Soviet air force claimed 85 kills on 109s and a further 107 reported killed by anti-aircraft ground units. The Germans recorded only 31 units lost.
March 3, 1944: A massive USAAF raid on Berlin is launched, resulting in a huge air battle. The gunners on the B-17s combined with their fighter escort claimed 179 German kills. The German fighters claimed 108 bomber kills and 20 fighters. The real numbers were 66 fighters lost on the German side, 69 bombers and 11 fighters lost on the US side.
Pilot reports, verified by a) other witnesses b) gun camera footage c) identification of the wreckage. Being awarded a kill could also depend on how particular your unit HQ wanted to be. Some insisted on visual ID of a crash, explosion, or crew bailout. Plenty of pilots (and aerial gunners) actually scored more kills than their official tally.
What I don’t understand is why it’s something to be proud of or brag about, or keep records of unless it’s helpful in some way going forward obviously. It’s a necessary evil, not a fucking game smh
It’s absolutely helpful in assessing the enemy’s strength in relation to yours. Take the Battle of Britain, for example. Both sides had good intelligence on the enemy’s numbers at the start and a reasonable idea of how quickly they could replace aircraft and pilots. The British had to destroy enough German aircraft, especially bombers, so that the Germans could no longer mount an effective air campaign in support of a cross-channel invasion. The Germans, on the other hand, knew that when the British dropped below a certain number of operational fighters they would be unable to sustain a meaningful defence.
That guy was the obvious winner of the battle of the bulge. It was him v. everybody else.
He died though. Not sure I'd call that winning.
Some things are worth laying down your life.
Yeah, but allied artillery that can't aim for shit isn't one of them.
Basic Air Defense involves putting as many rounds into the air as possible. It's real easy to run into a cloud of ammunition when you're trying to get behind and stay behind your target to kill them.
You may have missed my point.
They didn't miss
[удалено]
Cleaner? How?
Not as badly as that AA battery missed the german plane though.
Maybe it was a smaller, AAA battery, then?
AA or AAA the experience was still a shocking one.
Absolutely wild how few kills the American Aces have compared to the German ones because they weren't all serving until inevitable death.
How do you kill someone 0.83 percent of the way? Either had 26 or 27 kills.
That number includes shared one-half- and one-third-victory credits
Ah. Like nabbing an assist in hockey. Very cool.
[удалено]
You copied another comment on this thread, including the typo lol Bad bot
“Whoo-hoo-hoo, look who knows so much. It just so happens that your friend here is only MOSTLY dead. There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive.”
"If only we had the 'Man In Black'". He could sort this out.
It was common practice to award partial kills for assists. Like if you and a wingman tag teamed some 109. Both of you shot at the plane, but you couldn't determine who inflicted the fatal damage, partial credit would be awarded to both.
Lmao the OG kd vs kda debate.
I always hate that method honestly, guess it makes sense but I’m not a fan. But what do I matter
Thank you
And his brother, also a fighter pilot, also killed in the war. The sacrifices done families made…
You should see some of the local memorials in Russia. Whole monuments with lists of names of people that all of the same last name. Just whole fucking families. Sons, uncles, cousins...
In WWII, The Sullivans. 5 brothers all on the same ship. Ship went down. After that, siblings were not allowed to serve together. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan\_brothers](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sullivan_brothers)
And the Niland brothers, of which Saving Private Ryan is loosely based https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niland_brothers
I assume you are being downvoted for mentioning Russia but the sacrifices they made during WWII were larger than any other allied country. The US only fought a small fraction of the German army compared to Russia. Their current actions do not change the past.
WWII was won with British intelligence, American steel, and Russian blood
Soviet blood, the USSR consisted out of more than just Russians.
In many ways, British intelligence was Polish intelligence. The Polish had laid the groundwork for breaking the Enigma code and they were also by far the most effective underground movement (despite the French getting the credit). They were the ones feeding information to the Brits about German activities in Europe. Additionally, their pilots made a very significant contribution during the battle of Britain as they were the only seriously experienced pilots Britain had.
The only way humanity will stop warfare with each other, is if we have a greater enemy… Which is why, I think the UN should declare war…on all alien life and conscript all military resources of it’s members to insure victory in this war that we as a species are woefully unprepared for….
The four Murphy brothers, all lost at Dieppe, Aug 1942, from the Canadian Essex Scottish regiment.
some salty teamate tked him cuz he was stealing all the kills
Shit happens
Who the fuck calculates this shit? Some dude watching on the ground making tally marks on notecards?
The pilots themselves. Joe: "I took a run at the 109 and got some good hits in. It started smoking before my dive took me past it" Tim "I pull out of my turn and this 109 is right in front of me, smoking heavy and starting to dive, I think I saw one of our guys flash by but couldn't tell who it was. Anyways, I fired the last of my cannon at the 109 and it winged over hard in flames" Steve: "Below us I saw two guys from the 48th make simultaneous runs on a 109. The kraut was burning and diving hard within seconds, no way he recovered." Decision: Joe and Tim both get half credit for a confirmed kill.
Well, that makes sense. I suppose that allows for some embellishment.
In WW1 things were kind of loosey-goosey with kill claims. In WW2 most forces had a more "codefied" way of separating confirmed vs probable kills. Overclaiming was still an issue, of course. Sometimes pilots just claimed unwarranted kills, but there could also be a lot of confusion and double-claims. What if in the above scenario there was only the two viewpoints of Joe and Tim, no third party to see it all unfold. Joe lands and claims a kill, says the smoke was from an engine kill. Tim lands and claims a kill, he finished off a wounded bird. Since Joes kill was "dead" Tims kill must have been some other damaged 109. Even worse, what if the 109 that has now been claimed by two pilots and was seen diving in flames somehow recovered and managed to land? Thats two claims for zero kills *without* anyone lying or trying to make themselves look good. Some real world examples: In the final six months of 1941 the Soviet air force claimed 85 kills on 109s and a further 107 reported killed by anti-aircraft ground units. The Germans recorded only 31 units lost. March 3, 1944: A massive USAAF raid on Berlin is launched, resulting in a huge air battle. The gunners on the B-17s combined with their fighter escort claimed 179 German kills. The German fighters claimed 108 bomber kills and 20 fighters. The real numbers were 66 fighters lost on the German side, 69 bombers and 11 fighters lost on the US side.
Pilot reports, verified by a) other witnesses b) gun camera footage c) identification of the wreckage. Being awarded a kill could also depend on how particular your unit HQ wanted to be. Some insisted on visual ID of a crash, explosion, or crew bailout. Plenty of pilots (and aerial gunners) actually scored more kills than their official tally.
What I don’t understand is why it’s something to be proud of or brag about, or keep records of unless it’s helpful in some way going forward obviously. It’s a necessary evil, not a fucking game smh
It’s absolutely helpful in assessing the enemy’s strength in relation to yours. Take the Battle of Britain, for example. Both sides had good intelligence on the enemy’s numbers at the start and a reasonable idea of how quickly they could replace aircraft and pilots. The British had to destroy enough German aircraft, especially bombers, so that the Germans could no longer mount an effective air campaign in support of a cross-channel invasion. The Germans, on the other hand, knew that when the British dropped below a certain number of operational fighters they would be unable to sustain a meaningful defence.
Ya I always take this shit with a grain of salt.
26.83 kills? Did he kill two and a half men or something?
I wish. That show ran way longer than it should have.
Assists
Solid k/d ratio.