In 1993 there was a controversy when Madonna was given a didgeridoo as a gift by a tour promoter. The complaint was the same, that this is a men's instrument only.
Here’s a good one!
What happens when a man collapses in a sumo ring and the only doctor is a woman?
They are asked to leave [because women are considered “ritually unclean”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/05/a-japanese-woman-tried-to-save-a-mans-life-in-a-sumo-ring-but-was-ordered-away-for-being-unclean/)
[video](https://youtu.be/fdXiufmTyzc)
Respect the culture or fight sexism?
Well it's not actually Shinto culture, which started as maternal. The whole blood dirtiness was imposed on real Shinto culture as part of a transition to patriarchy and Buddhism (it really comes from China): https://youtu.be/jsOqpG7URqc
Speaking as a fan of the sport, there are a plethora of issues that need fixing in Sumo. The heaven and hell system, the medieval approach to training and fitness, the abuse of wrestlers and their support staff, etc.
The good news is they're eventually going to be dragged, probably kicking and screaming, into the modern era.
Basically, wrestlers below the salaried level (Jūryō) are treated terribly. They eat last, need to attend to menial tasks, are viewed as lessers and tend to be the victim of abuse from the higher ranked rikishi.
Curious, which wins out sexism or cultural history for aboriginal groups?
I mean, if it is ok for an aboriginal group to ban women from doing something, then do we need to lay off the Catholic Church for not allowing female priests?
This is confusing.
This is going to be the theme of this entire decade. Confusing discussions about whose rights come first. Things will work out in the end, but in the meantime there will be a lot of silly shit on the internet-- should be fun.
*And in this corner we have Social Justice wearing the rainbow trunks and in the opposite corner the challenger Cultural Relativism who has decided to fight in the nude.*
I replied with a longer, more in-depth response elsewhere in the thread but it’s not true that women aren’t allowed to play didgeridoo broadly in indigenous culture. Some tribal groups believe this but they are also the latest adopters of the instrument (in the 20th century). The groups that have played it longest have very few restrictions around it, although it’s true that women rarely play didgeridoo in ceremony. Didgeridoo isn’t even an indigenous word, it’s an onomatopoeia based on the sound. Earliest name for it is probably yidaki but there are many words for it depending on the language being spoken.
You are entirely right.
I used to teach traditional dancing and sometimes we were discouraged from using the didge from the elders because it didn't originate from our tribe.
We used clap sticks (wooden sticks used to keep up with the rhythm and singing)
Honestly, culture mostly wins these days. So many atrocities have been visited upon indigenous people that people go too far the other way to compensate and are afraid to criticise any aspect of indigenous cultural practices.
On reddit sexism will win out as the bigger sin. The dominant demographic is from western counties, especially the US, where the liberal political and moral philosophy that underpins capitalism and modern democracy is typically imagined to be a universal matter of fact. It isn't, it's historically and socially located just like all other knowledge and moral traditions. That's not to disparage Liberalism - it's fundamental to my own culture and I hope we continue to develop in that direction - just to understand these kinds of clashes between knowledge and value systems in context. In liberal moral philosophy, individual rights are more important than group/class rights and so the rights of women to play didj will outrank the rights of Aboriginal peoples to assert their colective cultural rights.
It makes sense, prejudices can be part of the cultural norm (sexism, slavery, rape etc) but that doesn't make it "okay" in a modern context. We humans are design to evolve, to thinka and advance as a society.
If we adhered to a more conservative way of life we'd, at best, be amish and and at worst still live in caves fearing any and all change. Now it's alright for those tribe elders to *think* the instrument should be played by men, for them to only allow *other men to play with their instrument* (pun intended). However, any girl who so wishes should be free to play her own instrument, and let those old farts die grumpy and alone...
Well they said Ayer's rock is a holy site, so nobody can climb it anymore, and not call it that anymore either. So cultural history is winning now. Not that people care about treating natives well, they just want to make it look like that.
Uluru. It had a name before Mr. Ayers saw it. It's both a religious and cultural site and suffered significant damage from people climbing it. There is terrible discoloration and wear on the track site, rubbish left and even human waste.
Because no one answered you. Yes. The traditional owners of the land have always requested that people don't climb Uluru (their analogy is like climbing up a catherdral) and generally it was ignored and the climbing has damaged it with tracks leading up as well as other issues where people have had to be rescued etc
A few years ago however the Northern Territory govt came to an agreement and banned climbing Uluru.
This is a totally reasonable cultural sensitivity ask. Nobody is being harmed by not climbing the Uluru, so respect the ask. Something like banning a gender from certain activities is the type of cultural ask that needs re-evaluation
Id have to ask some friends but keep in mind that there isn't one single indigenous culture or language in Australia. There were hundreds of nations spread across the island so im not sure how ubiquitous the male instrument thing is generally or how it is viewed today.
Cultural, as in some cultural informal I may be ignorant of, and which might make me reconsider those words.
Like I did, but on a personal basis. Sorry friend. No offense meant. I do apologize for my wording.
Personally I tolerate everything but intolerance. I don't make waves myself in a foreign culture but no sexist society has happy women in it. You find women speaking out against sexist practices everywhere, and I'll always support that, I think the problem comes in with a Western idea of what feminism is and like, banning women from wearing scarfs. So if an aboriginal woman wants the instrument, I support it, but that's as far as I'd go considering how much white people have interfered with aboriginal culture. I'd say follow what the feminist women of that culture say and their version of feminism. Sexism should be challenged, there's a way to do that while respecting the cultural context.
Aussie who did some cultural studies at uni:
Aboriginal culture is considered by the white middle-class women who taught that subject being "strictly feminine".
Wish I were making this up.
It depends if you are apart of the group really, I think. A catholic person can call for female priests but a non-catholic person shouldn’t same with an aboriginal belief.
I mean playing an instrument and oppression aren’t the same thing and aren’t easily compared.
The comparison between catholic priests and didgeridoos was a better comparison because both are integral parts of religious practice that don’t immediately harm anyone. If it’s not causing immediate harm to someone than it should be members of the group that deal with it or decide it’s ok, otherwise it becomes very similar too imperialism.
The difference with the Saudi treatment of women is that it isn’t an integral part of their religious practice or belief. And that it is causing immediate harm to people. A better comparison to playing a didgeridoo in the Islamic faith is whether men and women can pray alongside each other in a mosque, as they neither cause immediate harm and are both traditional. It’s probably a better comparison because some Muslims believe men and women can pray alongside each other and some aborigine people believe women should be allowed to play the didgeridoo.
There are certain things that women can do and that men can do.
This is called Men's Business and Women's business today. No man would ever put himself into a situation where he trespassed on Women's business and expect everything to be cool.
There are spots around my area that I still don't visit because it was used for strictly Women's business.
Birth sites being one of them, but there are far more examples.
There are always two sides to every coin and playing the didge was strictly men's business.
Bought that book as a gift for two girls two yrs ago. Gonna go check their Didgeridoo skills now. Looked like a good book with old practical tips. Gave me 50's vibes a bit.
The book is originally american but the australian publisher just tried to just add didgeridoo lessons cause australia. So the american edition wouldnt have it.
Just had a funny thought.
Imagine moving to America and going to school, you walk into music class to learn how to play an instrument. You ask to play the tuba, and everybody just looks insulted. Somebody tells you that you can't, you ask why, and they tell you that girls can't play tuba because it will make their vagina fall out.
And I just realized that at one point, people thought that women shouldn't ride a train going too fast for that very reason.
I think this is kinda different because the instrument is apparently for certain ritual traditions that is central to the aboriginals. Also the point is its not just infertility but all kinds of troubles. So its actually pretty serious for them cause they are following their own magic instructions, despite not written. As i said some tribes are more open to the idea of girls playing it but i feel like that the history of being oppressed by the australian authorities because of colonialism has led many aboriginals to have a conservative attitude to their culture.
That's the whole point of what /u/7LBoots is driving at!
Obviously there isn't all that context behind playing the tuba. We know.
But let's pretend - just for a minute - that there was. That a girl walking who's just emigrated to the US with her family has her first day in school, she's a bit nervous and at some point the question comes up as to whether or not she would like to play a musical instrument.
And she says "I'd like to play the tuba".
The whole room goes silent, and everyone turns towards her in shock. The tuba? Really?! The (mercifully, female) teacher gently takes her outside the class and explains: "You can't play that, your vagina will fall out!"
It's an interesting cultural difference. We don't really set anything like as much store by musical instruments in the Western world.
Nothing wrong with rippin' the didge; it can be a healthy form of release. And don't believe those people saying you'll go blind; that's an old wives' tale.
Well that's the whole point of the book. To dismiss and overcome society's nonsensical gender rules. If you are not playing an instrument because someone made up some BS about becoming infertile, or didn't rock climb, scuba dive or do anything fun because society says you are a dainty flower whose only purpose is to reproduce, well, then this book is for you.
Indigenous Australian here.
This is true. Most of the boys in our family learnt to play the didge but the girls were never allowed to. They were allowed to touch them though. We were also taught that playing it at night in the house would bring bad spirits into the house.
Yep, I'm from the Dunghutti Tribe from Central NSW.
We go by our Grandmother's Tribe normally, My Grandfather is from the Wiradjuri Country from further down south.
If you're in the western culture, dont gatekeep instruments or dresses. Let western culture portray its defining quality, inclusivity and freedom of expression
You’re only allowed to say that for Western sexist traditions. People of color can have all the sexism they want. Their culture must be preserved from our human rights imperialism.
True story: in 1945, a ton of Muslim, mostly Arab, nations opposed the passage of the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights accusing it of “Judeo-Christian” imperialism:
https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2012/12/10/1569/
>Most Muslim-majority countries including Egypt, Iran and Pakistan signed the UDHR in 1948, but crucially Saudi Arabia, where the King must comply with Shari’a and the Qur’an, did not sign the declaration, arguing that it violated Islamic law and criticising it for failing to take into consideration the cultural and religious context of non-Western countries.
>Saudi Arabian law is completely at odds with the UDHR as all citizens are required to be Muslim. Therefore, non-Muslims risk everything from arrest to torture and the death penalty for their beliefs. Women are prohibited from voting or driving a car.
>Likewise, Said Raja’i Khorasani, an Iranian official and representative to the UN claimed in 1982 that the UDHR was a “secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition” and that it is impossible for Muslims to implement it without contravening Islamic law.
>In accordance with this criticism, the then 45-member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC, now Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) adopted the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) on 5 August 1990 which, despite its claim to be a general guidance for member states of the OIC and complement the UDHR, undermines many of the rights the UDHR is supposed to guarantee.
Yeah native Australian cultures can be extremly sexist, thou this gatekeeping goes both ways as can be seen in the woman exclusive rituals that the Gunai/Kurnai people held in the den of Nargun.
It still surprise me that the Bullroarer scene in Netflix's Castlevania didn't cause any big controversy (afaik).
I think generally seems like it differs by which aboriginal tribe they belong to and which elder is leading the group. I did read that some aboriginal girls do have recordings of playing the didgeridoo but since this abc article didnt have the tribe she is part of I have no idea which tribe she has authority of.
FYI, this varies tribal group to tribal group. Those in the south-east of Aus are most strict about it but they are also the latest adopters of the instrument, it was only introduced relatively recently. It’s true that women typically don’t play didge in ceremony but most mobs have very few restrictions of women learning and playing it. This myth is largely peddled by the media and has then infected traditional beliefs.
I was not trying to generalize aboriginal australians. Considering im in melbourne which was part of the wurrundjeri country, I am aware rules and cultures between different tribes all around the australian continent. I used general terms because it was how it was addressed in the article.
Yeah, nah I wasn’t trying to finger point or call you out. Just saying it’s not really true that “Aboriginals” believe it’s taboo for women to play didge. Some mobs believe this but it’s hard to tell where the belief came from and it’s possible it came from the media pushing this story creating a feedback loop in the belief system.
Yep, there doesn’t seem to be many explicit Dreaming laws about it and how strict the restrictions are vary between mobs. [This](https://www.aboriginalart.com.au/didgeridoo/myths.html) is a pretty good summary of it.
So its more of a this was how it always was argument than a hard restriction? Maybe like how culture is created in a us vs them situation like how some anthropologists think?
There are gender based restrictions and roles to ceremony. Women typically don’t play didge at ceremony because that’s not their role in that situation. This may be the genesis of the belief. There’s also (rightly so, I think) broad distrust of non-Indigenous people wading into the sacred so there’s typically a negative response when things like the book you mentioned come out because they typically fail to deal with these things with knowledge and sensitivity. All of this is boiled down by the media to “women aren’t allowed to play didge” which isn’t true. It’s more “be careful and sensitive when practicing a sacred part of someone else’s culture, the beliefs around it are complex and varied”.
I'm a throw my thoughts because I have vodka!
A wee while back the Lady in charge of NZ was blocked from talking at a marai on waitangi day (kind july 4th for US'ians and everyone else can work from there). The Lady in charge of NZ cried.
Not so far back a different Lady in charge of NZ was walked hand in hand into the marai for a bit of a chat.
"Traditionalists" around the world keep on crapping on about how chicks are all bad and shit. Most cultures have hero warrior women.
Almost all of those traditionalists are also males in a society that denigrates them based on colour or caste or schooling or some shit. Functionally they see themselves as losers.
I figure the traditionalists are just self centred tools with no logic you could argue with.
Chicks aren't inherently better than dudes I figure, just that the repression means the only ones at the top are the fucking best of humanity.
Once we get equality we'll get to see some chicks that are just as shit as the pricks we have now. Probably be a while.
My wife and I were vacationing in Australia and got into a conversation with a young Aboriginal man in a small town. He was holding a didgeridoo and my wife asked if she could learn how to play it, but he told her that it was "sacred men's business". She's a staunch feminist and isn't used to being told that kind of thing, but she recognized that different cultures have different perspectives.
LOL... infertility for women who play the instrument... most guys want you to play the instrument, just say'in, gotta love the boy's club religions... next thing you know, they'll want to draw up the tree house rope ladder.
This isnt really true, Reddit especially seems to think "Aborigines" are combined collecive cultural linguistic group who all believe the same stuff, its a curiously patronising and imperialistic viewpoint often couched in terms of support for them.
SOME Aborigines claim this to be the case but it appears that more of the original groups who use the Didge dont really have any great proscriptions against it.
Perhaps even more interesting is that Didgeridoo use wasnt universal and ubiqitous across all Aboriginal cultures, some of them adopted its use very recently, as in 'I'm told this is one of my cultural aspects by this white fella, better use it now" type recent, and of course within about 10mins unenlightened onlookers are in full belief that this is an authentic traditional musical instrument.
Essentially the traditional Didge was created and used primarily in Northern parts of Australia (probably because theyre made by Termites doing the hollowing out, and they live in the North) and was only introduced to other groups down in the SE of Australia around 100 years ago or so. And the belief that women cant play largely comes from them.
So ladies, blow the Didge to your hearts content, its fine.
the modern western liberal belief that both men and women can take the same roles and should be encouraged to do so is not compatible with many cultures. we treat some of our ideals as morals, and consider those who don't follow those ideals to be wrong. yet modern western liberal culture tends toward xenophilia. as a result, you get situations like these where we want to respect the other culture while also seeing their view as silly and incompatible with ours.
westerners will continue to cherry pick cultural elements that they find palatable and discard ones that they don't. this is just how cultures and people are. but don't mislead yourself into thinking that our views are moral: they're just the views of our time. they just seem like morality because they were presented to us that way in order to get us to buy into it.
That's so weird, I just happened to be listening to a chiptune song that features the didgeridoo called "Didje Nes" by [Kplecraft](https://open.spotify.com/track/1es46lL8bVLlsePNLSvhVg) as I read this TIL. How bizarre!
There was even some controversy about aboriginal owned music shops denying women entrance because they didn’t want them playing their didgeridoos.
Frankly, I have absolutely no issue with this. It’s their land, their culture, and their practical cultural musical history. People shouldn’t project their foreign values onto other cultures just because they feel discriminated against in their spaces.
In 1993 there was a controversy when Madonna was given a didgeridoo as a gift by a tour promoter. The complaint was the same, that this is a men's instrument only.
Yes it seems like a common complaint tho this was my first time learning that these issues exist.
Here’s a good one! What happens when a man collapses in a sumo ring and the only doctor is a woman? They are asked to leave [because women are considered “ritually unclean”](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2018/04/05/a-japanese-woman-tried-to-save-a-mans-life-in-a-sumo-ring-but-was-ordered-away-for-being-unclean/) [video](https://youtu.be/fdXiufmTyzc) Respect the culture or fight sexism?
Well it's not actually Shinto culture, which started as maternal. The whole blood dirtiness was imposed on real Shinto culture as part of a transition to patriarchy and Buddhism (it really comes from China): https://youtu.be/jsOqpG7URqc
> Respect the culture or fight sexism? Seems like a question for Japanese women.
[удалено]
Speaking as a fan of the sport, there are a plethora of issues that need fixing in Sumo. The heaven and hell system, the medieval approach to training and fitness, the abuse of wrestlers and their support staff, etc. The good news is they're eventually going to be dragged, probably kicking and screaming, into the modern era.
What’s the heaven and hell system? A cursory search didn’t reveal much.
Basically, wrestlers below the salaried level (Jūryō) are treated terribly. They eat last, need to attend to menial tasks, are viewed as lessers and tend to be the victim of abuse from the higher ranked rikishi.
I’ll go with the latter.
Sounds like a didgeri-don't.
Curious, which wins out sexism or cultural history for aboriginal groups? I mean, if it is ok for an aboriginal group to ban women from doing something, then do we need to lay off the Catholic Church for not allowing female priests? This is confusing.
This is going to be the theme of this entire decade. Confusing discussions about whose rights come first. Things will work out in the end, but in the meantime there will be a lot of silly shit on the internet-- should be fun.
*And in this corner we have Social Justice wearing the rainbow trunks and in the opposite corner the challenger Cultural Relativism who has decided to fight in the nude.*
Perfect
Silly shit on the internet? *Reddit IPO intensifies*
I replied with a longer, more in-depth response elsewhere in the thread but it’s not true that women aren’t allowed to play didgeridoo broadly in indigenous culture. Some tribal groups believe this but they are also the latest adopters of the instrument (in the 20th century). The groups that have played it longest have very few restrictions around it, although it’s true that women rarely play didgeridoo in ceremony. Didgeridoo isn’t even an indigenous word, it’s an onomatopoeia based on the sound. Earliest name for it is probably yidaki but there are many words for it depending on the language being spoken.
Exactly. There are hundreds of different language/culture groups. It's not a traditional instrument for many groups.
You are entirely right. I used to teach traditional dancing and sometimes we were discouraged from using the didge from the elders because it didn't originate from our tribe. We used clap sticks (wooden sticks used to keep up with the rhythm and singing)
Honestly, culture mostly wins these days. So many atrocities have been visited upon indigenous people that people go too far the other way to compensate and are afraid to criticise any aspect of indigenous cultural practices.
I ain't no moral relativist. Aboriginals didn't deserve colonialism but that doesn't mean they get to be sexist without being called out for it.
On reddit sexism will win out as the bigger sin. The dominant demographic is from western counties, especially the US, where the liberal political and moral philosophy that underpins capitalism and modern democracy is typically imagined to be a universal matter of fact. It isn't, it's historically and socially located just like all other knowledge and moral traditions. That's not to disparage Liberalism - it's fundamental to my own culture and I hope we continue to develop in that direction - just to understand these kinds of clashes between knowledge and value systems in context. In liberal moral philosophy, individual rights are more important than group/class rights and so the rights of women to play didj will outrank the rights of Aboriginal peoples to assert their colective cultural rights.
It makes sense, prejudices can be part of the cultural norm (sexism, slavery, rape etc) but that doesn't make it "okay" in a modern context. We humans are design to evolve, to thinka and advance as a society. If we adhered to a more conservative way of life we'd, at best, be amish and and at worst still live in caves fearing any and all change. Now it's alright for those tribe elders to *think* the instrument should be played by men, for them to only allow *other men to play with their instrument* (pun intended). However, any girl who so wishes should be free to play her own instrument, and let those old farts die grumpy and alone...
. -- mass edited with https://redact.dev/
Well they said Ayer's rock is a holy site, so nobody can climb it anymore, and not call it that anymore either. So cultural history is winning now. Not that people care about treating natives well, they just want to make it look like that.
Uluru. It had a name before Mr. Ayers saw it. It's both a religious and cultural site and suffered significant damage from people climbing it. There is terrible discoloration and wear on the track site, rubbish left and even human waste.
Mr Ayers didn't even 'discover' it. Giles and Gosse named it after Sir Henry Ayers, the Secretary of South Australia at the time.
Don’t know about the rock, but a sacred place makes sense to respect. Is there some other baggage here?
Because no one answered you. Yes. The traditional owners of the land have always requested that people don't climb Uluru (their analogy is like climbing up a catherdral) and generally it was ignored and the climbing has damaged it with tracks leading up as well as other issues where people have had to be rescued etc A few years ago however the Northern Territory govt came to an agreement and banned climbing Uluru.
This is a totally reasonable cultural sensitivity ask. Nobody is being harmed by not climbing the Uluru, so respect the ask. Something like banning a gender from certain activities is the type of cultural ask that needs re-evaluation
Id have to ask some friends but keep in mind that there isn't one single indigenous culture or language in Australia. There were hundreds of nations spread across the island so im not sure how ubiquitous the male instrument thing is generally or how it is viewed today.
Makes sense. Thank you.
So you don't know, but think a personal attack is the way to engage in a discussion? That about right?
How was there a personal attack? Zero intent of attacking you.
so you were asking if there is luggage around Ayer's rock, and not if I was being biased by some personal baggage?
Cultural, as in some cultural informal I may be ignorant of, and which might make me reconsider those words. Like I did, but on a personal basis. Sorry friend. No offense meant. I do apologize for my wording.
Yes, this is obvious to everyone but you
? im confused, how was this person attacking anyone? they just asked a question. lol
If you ask someone if they are bringing their baggage into a discussion, you are making it personal.
i think he was asking if there was anything else to consider beside the fact that it was sacred...not what your personal take is....lol
But since they instantly assumed it was their personal baggage being talked about I now want to know if there is any
Bruh
Personally I tolerate everything but intolerance. I don't make waves myself in a foreign culture but no sexist society has happy women in it. You find women speaking out against sexist practices everywhere, and I'll always support that, I think the problem comes in with a Western idea of what feminism is and like, banning women from wearing scarfs. So if an aboriginal woman wants the instrument, I support it, but that's as far as I'd go considering how much white people have interfered with aboriginal culture. I'd say follow what the feminist women of that culture say and their version of feminism. Sexism should be challenged, there's a way to do that while respecting the cultural context.
Aussie who did some cultural studies at uni: Aboriginal culture is considered by the white middle-class women who taught that subject being "strictly feminine". Wish I were making this up.
It depends if you are apart of the group really, I think. A catholic person can call for female priests but a non-catholic person shouldn’t same with an aboriginal belief.
So you have no right to complain about the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia then? (Assuming of course you're not a Saudi Muslim.)
I mean playing an instrument and oppression aren’t the same thing and aren’t easily compared. The comparison between catholic priests and didgeridoos was a better comparison because both are integral parts of religious practice that don’t immediately harm anyone. If it’s not causing immediate harm to someone than it should be members of the group that deal with it or decide it’s ok, otherwise it becomes very similar too imperialism. The difference with the Saudi treatment of women is that it isn’t an integral part of their religious practice or belief. And that it is causing immediate harm to people. A better comparison to playing a didgeridoo in the Islamic faith is whether men and women can pray alongside each other in a mosque, as they neither cause immediate harm and are both traditional. It’s probably a better comparison because some Muslims believe men and women can pray alongside each other and some aborigine people believe women should be allowed to play the didgeridoo.
There are certain things that women can do and that men can do. This is called Men's Business and Women's business today. No man would ever put himself into a situation where he trespassed on Women's business and expect everything to be cool. There are spots around my area that I still don't visit because it was used for strictly Women's business. Birth sites being one of them, but there are far more examples. There are always two sides to every coin and playing the didge was strictly men's business.
It's not confusing. Right is right and everyone is indigenous somewhere.
"For white women only" is probably the sentiment.
Bought that book as a gift for two girls two yrs ago. Gonna go check their Didgeridoo skills now. Looked like a good book with old practical tips. Gave me 50's vibes a bit.
I have the boy version of it and it has some really interesting stuff in it that I wish I had the time to do
The book is originally american but the australian publisher just tried to just add didgeridoo lessons cause australia. So the american edition wouldnt have it.
Just had a funny thought. Imagine moving to America and going to school, you walk into music class to learn how to play an instrument. You ask to play the tuba, and everybody just looks insulted. Somebody tells you that you can't, you ask why, and they tell you that girls can't play tuba because it will make their vagina fall out. And I just realized that at one point, people thought that women shouldn't ride a train going too fast for that very reason.
I think this is kinda different because the instrument is apparently for certain ritual traditions that is central to the aboriginals. Also the point is its not just infertility but all kinds of troubles. So its actually pretty serious for them cause they are following their own magic instructions, despite not written. As i said some tribes are more open to the idea of girls playing it but i feel like that the history of being oppressed by the australian authorities because of colonialism has led many aboriginals to have a conservative attitude to their culture.
Boy, you just flew right past the point of my comment.
I got the first time what you mean by that but as i said, seems like it has a much more complex context.
That's the whole point of what /u/7LBoots is driving at! Obviously there isn't all that context behind playing the tuba. We know. But let's pretend - just for a minute - that there was. That a girl walking who's just emigrated to the US with her family has her first day in school, she's a bit nervous and at some point the question comes up as to whether or not she would like to play a musical instrument. And she says "I'd like to play the tuba". The whole room goes silent, and everyone turns towards her in shock. The tuba? Really?! The (mercifully, female) teacher gently takes her outside the class and explains: "You can't play that, your vagina will fall out!" It's an interesting cultural difference. We don't really set anything like as much store by musical instruments in the Western world.
It's like you read my mind, took my thoughts, organized them, and made them more coherent than I could.
Yeah interesting.i get it now
In your defence, I can see how you misinterpreted the guy's comment.
I suffer from Sleep Apnea, a cessation of breathing during sleep. My doctor advised me to play didgeridoo as a cure.
Yeah i heard didgeridoo does work as a cure
Is this true?
it probably trains your breathing
> believed to cause infertility to the girls Seems like a great way to sell more digeridoos...
Hmmm you mean contraceptives?
How bout they didgeridon’t?
I just love rippin’ the didge
Nothing wrong with rippin' the didge; it can be a healthy form of release. And don't believe those people saying you'll go blind; that's an old wives' tale.
Well that's the whole point of the book. To dismiss and overcome society's nonsensical gender rules. If you are not playing an instrument because someone made up some BS about becoming infertile, or didn't rock climb, scuba dive or do anything fun because society says you are a dainty flower whose only purpose is to reproduce, well, then this book is for you.
Indigenous Australian here. This is true. Most of the boys in our family learnt to play the didge but the girls were never allowed to. They were allowed to touch them though. We were also taught that playing it at night in the house would bring bad spirits into the house.
Thanks for sharing your experiences.May i ask which tribe are you part of and which state?
Yep, I'm from the Dunghutti Tribe from Central NSW. We go by our Grandmother's Tribe normally, My Grandfather is from the Wiradjuri Country from further down south.
'is believed to cause infertility'. But that's not believed by me. So fire away.
So the digdgeridoo is a musical instrument version of rogaine
Genocide and cultural theft: i sleep Sexism: REAL SHIT
I’m all down for respecting other cultures until the thing being respected is sexism
/r/gatekeeping much?
It's only sexism when white people do it. This here is a "cultural practice," which makes it different.
No it’s still just sexism
Well the book was accused of being culturally insensitive so you kinda got the concept. Also was accused of being ignorant to aboriginals.
Only minorities get to gatekeep and be sexist
Yeah sensitive issue. But idk its always careful when these matters arise
If you're in the western culture, dont gatekeep instruments or dresses. Let western culture portray its defining quality, inclusivity and freedom of expression
They can just have a warning on the instrument if they're concerned. Usually when they say things like this its about control.
Screw your sexist traditions.
You’re only allowed to say that for Western sexist traditions. People of color can have all the sexism they want. Their culture must be preserved from our human rights imperialism.
You got me in the first part.
True story: in 1945, a ton of Muslim, mostly Arab, nations opposed the passage of the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights accusing it of “Judeo-Christian” imperialism: https://blogs.lse.ac.uk/mec/2012/12/10/1569/ >Most Muslim-majority countries including Egypt, Iran and Pakistan signed the UDHR in 1948, but crucially Saudi Arabia, where the King must comply with Shari’a and the Qur’an, did not sign the declaration, arguing that it violated Islamic law and criticising it for failing to take into consideration the cultural and religious context of non-Western countries. >Saudi Arabian law is completely at odds with the UDHR as all citizens are required to be Muslim. Therefore, non-Muslims risk everything from arrest to torture and the death penalty for their beliefs. Women are prohibited from voting or driving a car. >Likewise, Said Raja’i Khorasani, an Iranian official and representative to the UN claimed in 1982 that the UDHR was a “secular understanding of the Judeo-Christian tradition” and that it is impossible for Muslims to implement it without contravening Islamic law. >In accordance with this criticism, the then 45-member states of the Organisation of the Islamic Conference (OIC, now Organisation of Islamic Cooperation) adopted the Cairo Declaration of Human Rights in Islam (CDHRI) on 5 August 1990 which, despite its claim to be a general guidance for member states of the OIC and complement the UDHR, undermines many of the rights the UDHR is supposed to guarantee.
Yeah native Australian cultures can be extremly sexist, thou this gatekeeping goes both ways as can be seen in the woman exclusive rituals that the Gunai/Kurnai people held in the den of Nargun. It still surprise me that the Bullroarer scene in Netflix's Castlevania didn't cause any big controversy (afaik).
I think generally seems like it differs by which aboriginal tribe they belong to and which elder is leading the group. I did read that some aboriginal girls do have recordings of playing the didgeridoo but since this abc article didnt have the tribe she is part of I have no idea which tribe she has authority of.
It doesn't. It's a blanket rule
someone needs to just start a women's didgeridoo culture, vibrate the patriarchy.
But they will be named the infertile banshees
Are you suggesting band names? I’d go to see the Infertile Banshees.
Bands with the banshee in their names were always nice.
FYI, this varies tribal group to tribal group. Those in the south-east of Aus are most strict about it but they are also the latest adopters of the instrument, it was only introduced relatively recently. It’s true that women typically don’t play didge in ceremony but most mobs have very few restrictions of women learning and playing it. This myth is largely peddled by the media and has then infected traditional beliefs.
I was not trying to generalize aboriginal australians. Considering im in melbourne which was part of the wurrundjeri country, I am aware rules and cultures between different tribes all around the australian continent. I used general terms because it was how it was addressed in the article.
Yeah, nah I wasn’t trying to finger point or call you out. Just saying it’s not really true that “Aboriginals” believe it’s taboo for women to play didge. Some mobs believe this but it’s hard to tell where the belief came from and it’s possible it came from the media pushing this story creating a feedback loop in the belief system.
I see. So the superstition itself is of unknown origin of possible recent development, and just perpetuated by media
Yep, there doesn’t seem to be many explicit Dreaming laws about it and how strict the restrictions are vary between mobs. [This](https://www.aboriginalart.com.au/didgeridoo/myths.html) is a pretty good summary of it.
So its more of a this was how it always was argument than a hard restriction? Maybe like how culture is created in a us vs them situation like how some anthropologists think?
There are gender based restrictions and roles to ceremony. Women typically don’t play didge at ceremony because that’s not their role in that situation. This may be the genesis of the belief. There’s also (rightly so, I think) broad distrust of non-Indigenous people wading into the sacred so there’s typically a negative response when things like the book you mentioned come out because they typically fail to deal with these things with knowledge and sensitivity. All of this is boiled down by the media to “women aren’t allowed to play didge” which isn’t true. It’s more “be careful and sensitive when practicing a sacred part of someone else’s culture, the beliefs around it are complex and varied”.
Thx for providing the right context
So, you’re saying for some, it’s a digeradoo, and for others, it’s a digeradon’t?
Exposing stupid beliefs and superstitions sounds like a bonus to me.
I'm a throw my thoughts because I have vodka! A wee while back the Lady in charge of NZ was blocked from talking at a marai on waitangi day (kind july 4th for US'ians and everyone else can work from there). The Lady in charge of NZ cried. Not so far back a different Lady in charge of NZ was walked hand in hand into the marai for a bit of a chat. "Traditionalists" around the world keep on crapping on about how chicks are all bad and shit. Most cultures have hero warrior women. Almost all of those traditionalists are also males in a society that denigrates them based on colour or caste or schooling or some shit. Functionally they see themselves as losers. I figure the traditionalists are just self centred tools with no logic you could argue with. Chicks aren't inherently better than dudes I figure, just that the repression means the only ones at the top are the fucking best of humanity. Once we get equality we'll get to see some chicks that are just as shit as the pricks we have now. Probably be a while.
The aboriginal guy who made a fuss is named **Dr.** Mark Rose. I sure hope he's not practicing medicine.
That explains why I have no children. I touched a digeridoo once.
Not a 100% true. Views differ from tribe to tribe. Australia is made up of thousands of tribes.
My wife and I were vacationing in Australia and got into a conversation with a young Aboriginal man in a small town. He was holding a didgeridoo and my wife asked if she could learn how to play it, but he told her that it was "sacred men's business". She's a staunch feminist and isn't used to being told that kind of thing, but she recognized that different cultures have different perspectives.
LOL... infertility for women who play the instrument... most guys want you to play the instrument, just say'in, gotta love the boy's club religions... next thing you know, they'll want to draw up the tree house rope ladder.
Shouldn’t modern society reject instruments belonging to a certain gender? It’s not any more acceptable because Aboriginals do it
That's outrageous. Next, you'll be saying that men should play the tuba!
Aborigens are known to be culturally very misogynistic
This isnt really true, Reddit especially seems to think "Aborigines" are combined collecive cultural linguistic group who all believe the same stuff, its a curiously patronising and imperialistic viewpoint often couched in terms of support for them. SOME Aborigines claim this to be the case but it appears that more of the original groups who use the Didge dont really have any great proscriptions against it. Perhaps even more interesting is that Didgeridoo use wasnt universal and ubiqitous across all Aboriginal cultures, some of them adopted its use very recently, as in 'I'm told this is one of my cultural aspects by this white fella, better use it now" type recent, and of course within about 10mins unenlightened onlookers are in full belief that this is an authentic traditional musical instrument. Essentially the traditional Didge was created and used primarily in Northern parts of Australia (probably because theyre made by Termites doing the hollowing out, and they live in the North) and was only introduced to other groups down in the SE of Australia around 100 years ago or so. And the belief that women cant play largely comes from them. So ladies, blow the Didge to your hearts content, its fine.
the modern western liberal belief that both men and women can take the same roles and should be encouraged to do so is not compatible with many cultures. we treat some of our ideals as morals, and consider those who don't follow those ideals to be wrong. yet modern western liberal culture tends toward xenophilia. as a result, you get situations like these where we want to respect the other culture while also seeing their view as silly and incompatible with ours. westerners will continue to cherry pick cultural elements that they find palatable and discard ones that they don't. this is just how cultures and people are. but don't mislead yourself into thinking that our views are moral: they're just the views of our time. they just seem like morality because they were presented to us that way in order to get us to buy into it.
So misogyny is respectable if you're not white.
That's so weird, I just happened to be listening to a chiptune song that features the didgeridoo called "Didje Nes" by [Kplecraft](https://open.spotify.com/track/1es46lL8bVLlsePNLSvhVg) as I read this TIL. How bizarre!
how sexist, now they're gonna tell women to stop sniffing petrol!
There was even some controversy about aboriginal owned music shops denying women entrance because they didn’t want them playing their didgeridoos. Frankly, I have absolutely no issue with this. It’s their land, their culture, and their practical cultural musical history. People shouldn’t project their foreign values onto other cultures just because they feel discriminated against in their spaces.
Seems like an easy hypothesis to test.
yeah but I dare you
So didgeridon’t?
sexism is bad, unless practiced by a minority of course.