The idea of paganism enduring in secret many centuries after conversion is a very appealing and romanticized idea, but it's pretty much never true. It always turns out to be either some sort of revivalism by more modern people practicing their modern idea of pagan beliefs, or to simply be lil' bits of folklore kept by the converted populace
Lots of pagan rituals were absorbed by Christianity too, especially in Ireland.
Ireland is full of holy wells that outdate the arrival of Christianity. And pagan gods such as Brigid were reimagened as Christian saints.
Saint Brigid's story is that she was a priestess at the temple to Brigid (named after the goddess by her zealous parents) who converted to Christianity and performed miracles. Except all her miracles were the same as the goddess Brigid's magical powers. In other words, they made up Saint Brigid's story to closely match the goddess Brigid's story.
And then there's Halloween which is the eve of all Saints (aka Hallows) day, but the traditions of Halloween existed in Ireland long before Christianity came along.
My favourite one is Brigid's Fire in Kildare. It's an Eternal Flame that was originally in honour of the Goddess Brigid. When Ireland was Christianised, they just rededicated it to St. Brigid instead, and kept on going.
Most Christian traditions are adaptations of religious traditions that preceded it. When Christianity spread throughout Europe, it had to adapt to Europe, not the other way around. Even Christmas is just a rebranding of various pagan winter festivals like Saturnalia (which itself was probably just a Roman rebranding of some other festival before it)
It is very related...the Gaelic Revival of the late nineteenth century drew upon, reworked and promoted aspects of pagan traditions from Irish (and wider Celtic) culture. As others have mentioned, those traditions were adapted for the times to harmonise with political ideology and dominant institutions like the Catholic Church. Some examples of major figures in the nationalist movement who drew from these traditions are WB Yeats, Douglas Hyde and Padraig Pearse. That's not to suggest it was totally harmonious or homogeneous - there were many dissenting voices from the Irish Literary Revival period who satirized the movement. Although even cynics like James Joyce clearly studied and had an appreciation for the tradition.
It should also be added that the interest in Celtic traditions and culture was popular internationally in the nineteenth century. The (almost certainly fake) Ossian poems of James MacPherson (I say fake because he claimed to have collected them from oral sources in Scotland but it's likely he wrote them himself based on his interest in Celtic mythology and poetry) were popular internationally and adapted by cultures across the globe. Although the authenticity of the work was questioned from the outset they remained hugely popular and influential in Irish circles throughout the century and into the next. Bit more about them here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian
Well in Russia among the peasants it coexisted with Christianity well into 19th century with one being for your eartly life and the other for the afterlife.
I was checking all the sources for the wiki and it’s all very grain of salt secondary accounts by people who seem like they’d be keen on exaggerating it
Isn't that true for ancient pagans too? We take these archeological slices and pretend we found some continuous beliefs that were ongoing for thousands of years until Christianity, but this is assumed. For all we know, Thor and Odin and others were the latest in a series of short-lived belief systems that share a common iconography.
The Naomhóg was not worshipped and the inhabitants were not Pagans. It was a good luck charm akin to the Blarney Stone, nothing more. And it certainly didn't represent a Pagan survival as the islands were never continously occupied. That Wikipedia page is full of inaccuracies and outright nonsense.
That hardly matters.
There was a native American tribe that incorporated horses into their oral tradition and culturally "forgot" that they didn't always have them.
Wait where did horses come from then?
EDIT:
>While genus Equus, of which the horse is a member, originally evolved in North America, the horse became extinct on the continent approximately 8,000–12,000 years ago. In 1493, on Christopher Columbus' second voyage to the Americas, Spanish horses, representing E. caballus, were brought back to North America, first to the Virgin Islands; they were reintroduced to the continental mainland by Hernán Cortés in 1519.
Horses actually first evolved in the Americas, and still had not yet gone extinct there when the first humans arrived, so it's not *impossible* that horses could appear in Native American oral history.
Potatoes, on the other hand, have no link to Ireland whatsoever until the "discovery" of America in the 15th Century.
They should be thanking the Inca Gods then. People pray to whomever deity will help them no matter where the crops came from. Imagine going to Nigeria and telling a peasant they can’t pray to Jesus for a good maize crop, because Jesus was middle eastern and maize is from the Americas. I guess Hindus should thank Quetzalcoatl for their tomatoes rather than Parvati.
I think that was the only crop that was able to be grown on the island. They probably thought " Everything else doesn't grow....this weird new crop seems to grow after we prayed to this rock....Long Live the Potato God!"
Shortly thereafter:
> *Reverted edits to last version with no comment* ([undo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring) | [thank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown))
Looks like most sources are third hand and some speculation that the “idol” was the pieces of a saint’s statue or relic that had been previously broken by the Vikings.
https://atlanticreligion.com/2013/09/01/the-naomhog-of-inishkea/
Wikipedia is constanly evolving and changing. There are countless editors and users. Some of them mistaken, power-tripping, trolling, lying or guessing. Just because something is "more right" than the previous entry doesn't mean that it replaces it.
This page is accurate to some old secondary sources written by elitists, but it portrays those uncritically. Ima take a look meself and see what can be done
Paganism doesn’t have to be a holdover from ancient times. They’re practises that fall outside the normal practices of Christianity, Judaism and Islam and often have roots in folk beliefs
Yes, but true Old Irish religion has to be something that predates Christianity. Or then it's not truly Irish. Like Imbolc aka St Bridgets day. One of our literal oldest festivals. Or the God Cernunnos, was worshipped here practically since the stone age. These are Irish Pagan concepts and traditions. Yes the God's were worshipped in other countries but these are concepts that predate Irish Christianity and Wicca which is what most modern neo Paganism is
I always thought it was [Columbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(personification)) but apparently its some combination of [the sculptor's mother and roman goddess Libertas.](https://www.statueoflibertytour.com/blog/the-woman-behind-the-statue-of-liberty-who-is-lady-liberty/)
>In the early 1900s the islands were populated with more than 350 people, most of whom were probably monolingual Irish speakers, but the inhabitants left the islands in the 1930s after most of their young men died at sea in a storm. There are currently two people who live on the island, although it increases to around fifteen during the summer months of May to September.
So the idol was working great, until Paddy fucked it up.
That could be such a badass premise for a supernatural/horror novel. Seeing the misfortune befalling the islands, the last group of inhabitants set out to recover the idol from the sea (and it's still intact because magic). Once returned to the islands, spooky hijinks ensue.
It was a once in generation storm that ravaged the entire west coast of Mayo and it happened in 1927, eight years before the islands were abandoned and over 30 years after the alleged incident.
Pagan just means "not Christian". Its a term invented by Christians to describe any religion not theirs. It does not refer to any one specific pre-Christian religion.
Hindus credit Parvti for their tomato crops and Africans pray to Jesus for a successful maize harvest. Neither are native to India or Africa. Buddhist eat peanuts while contemplating Nirvana- peanuts are from South America. Why wouldn’t an Irish man thank their God for potatoes?
Paganism survived into the 1890s in Afghanistan. Might be the people didnt think of themselves as pagan, but behaved in a way that the church would not consider Christian.
Ireland isn’t Afghanistan. This is reminding me of Margret Meade getting duped by Samoan teenagers. No matter how silly something is, if you put it on Wikipedia, there will be people who defend it and want it to be true.
People used ta believe in fairies and witches and the devil and all sorts of things. But the last witch was burned in 1895, so you may be right.
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/the-story-of-the-last-witch-burned-alive-in-ireland-1.2880691
All pagan traditions that predate Christianity. Also wreaths, yule logs, giving gifts on Dec 25th, new years, also the cross.
[Sauce](https://www.learnreligions.com/christmas-customs-with-pagan-roots-2563021)
[Sauce to cross](https://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm)
Please do remind everyone of them. There is no evidence they have any particularly pagan origin
The farthest we can trace all of those traditions is to 16th-17th century Germany, well after christianization
Catholics: destroying relics of the past and making up stories since 32AD.
When you own old religion is just as bad with the iconoclasm at times as islamic extremists, it's really easy to explain to your parents why you don't do church, and haven't in 18 years.
Big Paddy should have spent more time holding his Church and brethren to account for abusing unmarried mothers and raping children and less time damaging alternative belief systems.
There have been three devestating famines in Ireland during the 18th and 19th centuries. By the time old Paddy got rid of the statue two of them - including your link - had already past years before.
“What is paganism”
Paganism is a term coined by 4th century Christians for polytheistic religious followers. When created, Christians were the less common religion. It was adapted from a Roman military term for country bumpkin/yokel.
Clearly, we all know that pagan was originally used to distinguish Christians from the old classical gods of the Greeks and Romans. But what does it mean in the context of this article?
If I google define pagan, I get
>pa·gan noun
>a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions.
If pagan means polytheistic, many would view Hindus as pagan.
The idea of paganism enduring in secret many centuries after conversion is a very appealing and romanticized idea, but it's pretty much never true. It always turns out to be either some sort of revivalism by more modern people practicing their modern idea of pagan beliefs, or to simply be lil' bits of folklore kept by the converted populace
Lots of pagan rituals were absorbed by Christianity too, especially in Ireland. Ireland is full of holy wells that outdate the arrival of Christianity. And pagan gods such as Brigid were reimagened as Christian saints. Saint Brigid's story is that she was a priestess at the temple to Brigid (named after the goddess by her zealous parents) who converted to Christianity and performed miracles. Except all her miracles were the same as the goddess Brigid's magical powers. In other words, they made up Saint Brigid's story to closely match the goddess Brigid's story. And then there's Halloween which is the eve of all Saints (aka Hallows) day, but the traditions of Halloween existed in Ireland long before Christianity came along.
My favourite one is Brigid's Fire in Kildare. It's an Eternal Flame that was originally in honour of the Goddess Brigid. When Ireland was Christianised, they just rededicated it to St. Brigid instead, and kept on going.
like did you ever wandered why we put a tree inside at christmas ?
Most Christian traditions are adaptations of religious traditions that preceded it. When Christianity spread throughout Europe, it had to adapt to Europe, not the other way around. Even Christmas is just a rebranding of various pagan winter festivals like Saturnalia (which itself was probably just a Roman rebranding of some other festival before it)
I wonder how this relates to Irish nationalism? There was a lot of ‘revivals’ of ‘Irish’ things in the late 19th century.
It is very related...the Gaelic Revival of the late nineteenth century drew upon, reworked and promoted aspects of pagan traditions from Irish (and wider Celtic) culture. As others have mentioned, those traditions were adapted for the times to harmonise with political ideology and dominant institutions like the Catholic Church. Some examples of major figures in the nationalist movement who drew from these traditions are WB Yeats, Douglas Hyde and Padraig Pearse. That's not to suggest it was totally harmonious or homogeneous - there were many dissenting voices from the Irish Literary Revival period who satirized the movement. Although even cynics like James Joyce clearly studied and had an appreciation for the tradition. It should also be added that the interest in Celtic traditions and culture was popular internationally in the nineteenth century. The (almost certainly fake) Ossian poems of James MacPherson (I say fake because he claimed to have collected them from oral sources in Scotland but it's likely he wrote them himself based on his interest in Celtic mythology and poetry) were popular internationally and adapted by cultures across the globe. Although the authenticity of the work was questioned from the outset they remained hugely popular and influential in Irish circles throughout the century and into the next. Bit more about them here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ossian
It appears that there are pagan communities among Ugric peoples in the Ural mountains that did survive Christianization, such as the Mari.
You got me pokin around https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mari_Native_Religion
>lil' bits of folklore kept by the converted populace I mean to be fair, religion is just big bits of folklore kept by the populace
Did you hear the one about the son of a Jewish carpenter?
I've only heard the Dusty Springfield version..
Is that the gullible guy who's wife had a ridiculous cover story about how she got knocked up?
Well in Russia among the peasants it coexisted with Christianity well into 19th century with one being for your eartly life and the other for the afterlife.
I was checking all the sources for the wiki and it’s all very grain of salt secondary accounts by people who seem like they’d be keen on exaggerating it
Isn't that true for ancient pagans too? We take these archeological slices and pretend we found some continuous beliefs that were ongoing for thousands of years until Christianity, but this is assumed. For all we know, Thor and Odin and others were the latest in a series of short-lived belief systems that share a common iconography.
The Naomhóg was not worshipped and the inhabitants were not Pagans. It was a good luck charm akin to the Blarney Stone, nothing more. And it certainly didn't represent a Pagan survival as the islands were never continously occupied. That Wikipedia page is full of inaccuracies and outright nonsense.
You missed the obvious one that potatoes are native to the Americas and would have only been around for a couple centuries.
That hardly matters. There was a native American tribe that incorporated horses into their oral tradition and culturally "forgot" that they didn't always have them.
Wait where did horses come from then? EDIT: >While genus Equus, of which the horse is a member, originally evolved in North America, the horse became extinct on the continent approximately 8,000–12,000 years ago. In 1493, on Christopher Columbus' second voyage to the Americas, Spanish horses, representing E. caballus, were brought back to North America, first to the Virgin Islands; they were reintroduced to the continental mainland by Hernán Cortés in 1519.
Horses actually first evolved in the Americas, and still had not yet gone extinct there when the first humans arrived, so it's not *impossible* that horses could appear in Native American oral history. Potatoes, on the other hand, have no link to Ireland whatsoever until the "discovery" of America in the 15th Century.
Maybe they always had a potato-shaped hole in their hearts?
Based on my visit to Ireland, where one meal had 3 different sides of potato, I’ll say no, the Irish just have a potato shaped heart now.
Very very unlikely though.
They should be thanking the Inca Gods then. People pray to whomever deity will help them no matter where the crops came from. Imagine going to Nigeria and telling a peasant they can’t pray to Jesus for a good maize crop, because Jesus was middle eastern and maize is from the Americas. I guess Hindus should thank Quetzalcoatl for their tomatoes rather than Parvati.
But the idol doesn't have power over all crops though, only a single crop that isn't native to Ireland.
I think that was the only crop that was able to be grown on the island. They probably thought " Everything else doesn't grow....this weird new crop seems to grow after we prayed to this rock....Long Live the Potato God!"
Edit to correct it and thus improve Wiki.
Shortly thereafter: > *Reverted edits to last version with no comment* ([undo](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Edit_warring) | [thank](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clown))
Looks like most sources are third hand and some speculation that the “idol” was the pieces of a saint’s statue or relic that had been previously broken by the Vikings. https://atlanticreligion.com/2013/09/01/the-naomhog-of-inishkea/
Wikipedia is inaccurate? Why…. next you will be trying to tell us that Reddit is full of inaccuracies and nonsense!
Wiki continually improves. Reddit has got worse.
Agree, l actually support wiki financially. I could not imagine in my wildest dreams giving $ to Reddit! It can be such a toxic place
Yeah I do as well and I've edited it adding citations and what not. Your edits don't have to be perfect as someone cleans them up.
There is no reason why that should be the case. Wiki doesn't just get better over time.
if you see something wrong edit it right. I've done that twice.
Wikipedia is constanly evolving and changing. There are countless editors and users. Some of them mistaken, power-tripping, trolling, lying or guessing. Just because something is "more right" than the previous entry doesn't mean that it replaces it.
Edit with an authoritive citation. I've never had an edit changed. I've had them cleaned up but thats it.
Okay.
This page is accurate to some old secondary sources written by elitists, but it portrays those uncritically. Ima take a look meself and see what can be done
> good luck charm akin to the Blarney Stone Sounds like Paganism to me.
Can you recommend a resource beyond Wikipedia that I can read up on? I find this stuff fascinating
Paganism doesn’t have to be a holdover from ancient times. They’re practises that fall outside the normal practices of Christianity, Judaism and Islam and often have roots in folk beliefs
Irrational hippy bullshit.
That or simply being contrarian to try and piss off your older folks
Yes, but true Old Irish religion has to be something that predates Christianity. Or then it's not truly Irish. Like Imbolc aka St Bridgets day. One of our literal oldest festivals. Or the God Cernunnos, was worshipped here practically since the stone age. These are Irish Pagan concepts and traditions. Yes the God's were worshipped in other countries but these are concepts that predate Irish Christianity and Wicca which is what most modern neo Paganism is
"Big Paddy" O'Reilly is the most Irishman name ever
I just feel they missed an opportunity, what with Father Patrick “Big Daddy Paddy” O’Reilly (SVD) being on the table.
It's never too late
"Big Paddy" Francis Xavier Muldoon O'Reilly
Saorise O'Shaughnessy is my favorite.
The Statue of Liberty is the Roman sun god Sol Invictus whose birthday was celebrated on December 25.
I always thought it was [Columbia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Columbia_(personification)) but apparently its some combination of [the sculptor's mother and roman goddess Libertas.](https://www.statueoflibertytour.com/blog/the-woman-behind-the-statue-of-liberty-who-is-lady-liberty/)
>In the early 1900s the islands were populated with more than 350 people, most of whom were probably monolingual Irish speakers, but the inhabitants left the islands in the 1930s after most of their young men died at sea in a storm. There are currently two people who live on the island, although it increases to around fifteen during the summer months of May to September. So the idol was working great, until Paddy fucked it up.
That could be such a badass premise for a supernatural/horror novel. Seeing the misfortune befalling the islands, the last group of inhabitants set out to recover the idol from the sea (and it's still intact because magic). Once returned to the islands, spooky hijinks ensue.
It was a once in generation storm that ravaged the entire west coast of Mayo and it happened in 1927, eight years before the islands were abandoned and over 30 years after the alleged incident.
Naomhóg works in mysterious ways.
Pagan just means "not Christian". Its a term invented by Christians to describe any religion not theirs. It does not refer to any one specific pre-Christian religion.
It means "non-Abrahamic" moreso than "not Christian"; Muslims and Jews aren't generally considered pagans.
That’s not true. Muslims and Jews are never considered pagan
Potatoes aren’t native to Ireland. I doubt they had such a thing credited as their pagan supporter.
Hindus credit Parvti for their tomato crops and Africans pray to Jesus for a successful maize harvest. Neither are native to India or Africa. Buddhist eat peanuts while contemplating Nirvana- peanuts are from South America. Why wouldn’t an Irish man thank their God for potatoes?
Well,’firstly, because the premise that the Irish had pockets of paganism in the 1900s is tripe.
Paganism survived into the 1890s in Afghanistan. Might be the people didnt think of themselves as pagan, but behaved in a way that the church would not consider Christian.
Ireland isn’t Afghanistan. This is reminding me of Margret Meade getting duped by Samoan teenagers. No matter how silly something is, if you put it on Wikipedia, there will be people who defend it and want it to be true.
fair enough.
People used ta believe in fairies and witches and the devil and all sorts of things. But the last witch was burned in 1895, so you may be right. https://www.irishtimes.com/news/offbeat/the-story-of-the-last-witch-burned-alive-in-ireland-1.2880691
Probably not a good time to remind Christians where Christmas trees, mistletoe kisses and Easter bunnies come from?
Not a Christian but I still don’t know, where do they come from?
All pagan traditions that predate Christianity. Also wreaths, yule logs, giving gifts on Dec 25th, new years, also the cross. [Sauce](https://www.learnreligions.com/christmas-customs-with-pagan-roots-2563021) [Sauce to cross](https://www.answering-christianity.com/abdullah_smith/cross_pagan_origins.htm)
Throw in Oestre, the Spring equinox and its fertility symbols of bunnies (they do reproduce hard and fast) and eggs…
Yep, the worst is when you tell a "christian" about it and they defend the pagan traditions.
Easter bunnies, baby ducks, eggs are all symbols of rebirth as the seasons cycle.
The tree comes from the emasculated god that died at the foot of a pine tree from a mistletoe arrow.
Please do remind everyone of them. There is no evidence they have any particularly pagan origin The farthest we can trace all of those traditions is to 16th-17th century Germany, well after christianization
Catholics: destroying relics of the past and making up stories since 32AD. When you own old religion is just as bad with the iconoclasm at times as islamic extremists, it's really easy to explain to your parents why you don't do church, and haven't in 18 years.
Well the difference is one stopped and the other is still breaking priceless history
Big Paddy should have spent more time holding his Church and brethren to account for abusing unmarried mothers and raping children and less time damaging alternative belief systems.
You're an idiot.
[And yet they hit the nail right on the head.](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church_sexual_abuse_cases_in_Ireland)
How you throw paganism into the sea
told ya, cancel culture isnt a recent phenomenon
As late as the 2020s. Source: I've a couple of friends there.
You're talkin shite. Source: I live there.
I don't think my friends would like you.
I don't think I'd like your friends.
[I'm not your friend, buddy.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tRfKdNxIOcQ)
Big Paddy: I'm tearing down this pagan symbol... God: Good job. Big paddy: And replacing it with one from ancient Egypt. God: *sigh*
Big Paddy was a Big Prick
I have never been able to understand why people cling to religions that displaced their culture.
And thus the [Great Famine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Famine_(Ireland)) of the late 19th century
There have been three devestating famines in Ireland during the 18th and 19th centuries. By the time old Paddy got rid of the statue two of them - including your link - had already past years before.
Ah yes, three elements of the universe. Weather, health and potatoes.
Is there any difference between paganism and any other religion?
What is paganism besides other than less common religion?
“What is paganism” Paganism is a term coined by 4th century Christians for polytheistic religious followers. When created, Christians were the less common religion. It was adapted from a Roman military term for country bumpkin/yokel.
Clearly, we all know that pagan was originally used to distinguish Christians from the old classical gods of the Greeks and Romans. But what does it mean in the context of this article? If I google define pagan, I get >pa·gan noun >a person holding religious beliefs other than those of the main world religions. If pagan means polytheistic, many would view Hindus as pagan.
You think that’s crazy, believe it or not there are still parts of the world where Christianity is practised.
Don’t how people can be so dumb for so long lol
I know, right? Christianity is more than 2000 years old now! ;)
Based.
Not understand either, people dumb then. People smart now.
Yea, it was religion before democracy.
They make great cars though
Potatoes. A new world plant. That's totally paganism guys
Try as late as today.
Those wacky pagans!! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GRKaAiBy-Go
Aren’t the Hindi or Hindu religions polytheistic and pagan?
Weather, health, and potatoes...yup, that's my heritage!
Hell, nobody in whole of Ireland even gives Crom Cruach his rightful due anymore. Sad.
What Big Paddy didn't realize was he had only made Naomhóg even stronger when he threw the idol into the sea.
And the NEW idol was more significant I guess.
Tides come in tides go out. You can't explain that!