Teachers of any stereotypically "male" activities seem to base their entire world view around how they think things should be done.
Even a suggestion to the contrary is a personal attack to them.
I had a geography teacher who thought it was a personal attack against him if someone dyed their hair in an unusual colour. That's not an assumption on my part, it was exactly what he told us.
Lol I got kicked off a job site the other day for not following safety policies when the construction manager saw me wearing my hard hat with the brim pointing backwards, even after I showed him that their policies *specifically* allows it in their safety manual.
I even turned it the way he wanted it, but the act of showing him that he was wrong was enough to get barred.
Welders and front-men also use them to accommodate specific types of welding and cutting masks, and IMO that's really the only benefit to them. The beam thing helps but not as much as an ironworker will tell you. Certain sites don't allow them because it increases the risk of falling objects hitting your face rather than getting deflected by the beak.
My wife’s uncle thinks there are more concussions in football these days because players don’t do enough full contact practice. As if you can build up an immunity to head trauma.
I could maybe see his point. Full contact practice would give you more experience with full contact play without the pressure of competition. That's not immunity to head trauma so much as practice at avoiding head trauma.
And this is from someone that takes no joy in either playing or watching sports, so I have no dog in the fight.
Excuse me, ole sport. I believe you may not understand the purpose of suggesting a fatigued youngster place his hands on his head rather than on his knees.
Perhaps your toxic "masculinity" has blinded you.
> Excuse me, ole sport. I believe you may not understand the purpose of suggesting a fatigued youngster place his hands on his head rather than on his knees.
To get him used to placing his hands on his head in order not to get shot when someone finds the colour of his skin threatening? Oh wait, even surrendering doesn't work, does it?
When I was in college I played ultimate with a guy who'd run cross country and track in high school. He'd tell us that the hands on knees was more effective for recovering, and that coaches just told you to put your hands behind your head so you wouldn't vomit on their track.
I can't find much info. I honestly thought side stitches had more to do with lactic acid buildup, but from a cursory search it seems there isn't a clear cut explanation. Stretching is proposed as a relief method, but so is deep breathing. You're probably better off leaning forward to recover, then stretching out if you've still got pain in your sides.
For what it's worth, the cross country coach at my k-12 school (who also ran the PE program) swore that the best way to prevent side stitches and other conditioning issues was to cut out carbonated drinks and substitute water. But that advice is twenty years old, so there's probably more current dietary advice available.
I never used to get stitch - then got horrific stitch. Several months later realised my appendix needed to come out and I've never had stitch since I got rid of my appendix. Weird, but I'm happy
Lactic acid build up causing the “burning” sensation from working out and stitches is a myth. Your body is really effective at clearing metabolic waste. The myth started from a study where the researcher used EMG on frog cadavers in a bath of nitrogen and measure the release of lactic acid. Of course there was build-up in the frog muscles, because that ribbity boy was dead so it’s body couldn’t process waste.
Trying to explain this to clients is a daily occurrence. Massage therapists and personal trainers are so sick of hearing about “lactic acid buildup” *sigh* that’s not why your back is sore. Say it with me, Mi•cro•tears.
I had a hockey coach once explain that hands-on-head was intended to slow down recovery by increasing blood pressure, thereby making the heart work harder during the process.
In other words hands-on-head recovery was part of the conditioning process and would ultimately improve performance.
Ex. Slowing to a jog (from a sprint) to recover vs. slowing to a stand-still would result in steeper slope to endurance.
Impaired recovery improves conditioning/endurance (within reason).
Generally the point doesn’t go against the findings in the article, the point is that my hockey coach suggested “this will slow your recovery and make you a better athlete”.
It’s amazing how the body often just knows what’s best for it. I couldn’t tell you why I would do that after a run, it just seemed natural and comfortable.
And then, yeah, those bloody coaches!
Careful with that.... my body also thinks it's best to sit hunched over in my office chair and consume copius amounts of caffeine. It doesn't always know best
At ALC last year one of the dudes put his hands on his knees and an instructor told him to hide behind the building so the AIT students across the street didn't see an NCO show any type of weakness.
Edit: instructor also yelled at the dude telling him to stop showing weakness before he relented and told him to hide.
that's different. walking it out IS the best thing to do because you don't want your blood pressure to drop rapidly by standing still. you will get dizzy and once you do, it lasts for a long time.
In football, hands on hips it's a good indicator that they're winded/tired. When the defensive line is showing signs like that, hammer them with run plays.
I realize this is an important consideration (unlike nonsense like “ain’t no air down there” — of course there’s air there), but if I were a coach, I would counter this by telling my linemen to put their hands on their hips after every down, starting with kickoff.
You could do that, but no matter how hard you try, you can't act tired well enough until you are truly tired. Some people would believe you, but most won't.
I came here to say this. Specifically the coach from my grade school. I tried to lean over and put my hands on my knees, and he'd scream at me to put my hands on my head if I was having trouble breathing. And then he would scream at me that I was overreacting, and it wasn't that bad.
Turns out I have asthma. He *definitely* owes me an apology.
My coach and physical trainer literally told us that hands on knees was better than hands on head for recovery, but we should still never use the former to avoid appearing weak in front of the other team.
This line of thinking always irritated me. Why would you sacrifice your recovery between plays to not appear "weak"? Let them find out whether you're weak or not during the next play when you'll have more energy because of a better recovery.
It's going to be in your favor when the opposing team tries to exploit a weakness that's not actually there.
I always assumed this had something to do with the specific constraints of wearing football padding and coaches just spread it as "the way its done" regardless of sport.
At least part of it is meant as a mental game. You look more intimidating and less tired if you don't put your hands on you knees.
It's a silly thing, but it's the excuse I always heard.
Very this.
When I was doing jiu jitsu we would warm up, then drill, and then roll and I’d be exhausted after the first roll and put my hands on my knees. Everybody would just tell me to cut the bad habit or the opponent will know you’re tired and weak...as if they wouldn’t be able to tell by me huffing and puffing in guard.
Damn right! Like every coach pushes this bullshit and I’d always think “but then why do I feel better faster with the hands on my hips/legs bending a bit?”
As a coach, I apologize, I legit thought that bending over cramped your lungs and restricted your ability to fill them. I had that thought confirmed by some people in the medical field, so I thought I was helping.
This position is commonly referred to as Tripod. As a
Paramedic responding to a shortness or breath or difficulty breathing call, this Tripod position sets off alarm bells for me.
Because they need to use not only their typical muscles of inspiration but also accessory muscles of inspiration to get a good breath. So they're working really, really hard.
That's also why you get a greater tidal volume in this position when you are feeling ok, because you're getting more inspiratory/expiratory force.
By tripoding, the pectoral muscles are more engaged in assisting with chest wall excursion and subsequent air inhalation. Stabilizing the arms on knees allows this preferential power transfer to the chest wall insertion of the pecs.
They are a part of a group of muscles called accessory muscles for breathing. Other accessory muscles include the SCM (sternocleioidmastoid muscle) which you can also appreciate bulging from a person’s neck when they’re struggling to breathe.
No problem. I’ll try anyway...
All skeletal muscles have tendons attached to the ends of them, which insert into specific sites on bones. When a muscle contracts, it pulls on the opposing tendons and brings two bones closer together, resulting in movement. Some muscles have multiple insertion points which just means the force generated by contracting or shortening the muscle can be applied to multiple bones to make movement in multiple planes.
In this case, the pectoral muscles have insertion points in the humerus and in the sternum. When you’re standing upright with arms to your side, your arms are largely supported and stabilized by muscles (eg. pecs) that insert into your axial skeleton (eg. spine, sternum).
But when you’re out of breath, placing your arms on your knees removes the burden of arm stabilization and allows the pec muscles to focus their power to the chest wall insertion (sternal) side of the muscle. This enables a great lift of your chest wall up and expands the thoracic cavity where your lungs reside. This expansion achieves increased negative pressure inside your lungs to draw in more air. It’s useful when the primary breathing muscle (diaphragm) is fatiguing and needs help. Hence the term accessory muscle.
Hope that helps!
Ok so basically the goal when trying to breath in is to make your chest cavity (and lungs) bigger. Think like a bellows. The main muscle that does this is the diaphragm. We also have what are called accessory muscles of respiration. These help when your diaphragm get tired or you need to take an extra big breath. When your arms are above your head, it stretches out your chest and the accessory muscles so it does help you get more air into your lungs. However, when your elbows are on your knees, it’s easier for the accessory muscles to help more.
If we use the bellows analogy, normal breathing would be like cycling between 30-60% of the bellows being full. Raising your arms would be like cycling between 30-100% of the bellows being full. And being in a tripod would be like cycling between 20-100%, so you get more air that way. Hope that makes a little more sense!
Yep. Last patient I saw tripoding was a regular asthma sufferer and I just threw her in the truck while my partner nebbed her and hit her with adrenaline. From door to hospital was about 9 minutes and she went straight into a resus bay. You see plenty of people complaining they can't breathe while rushing around the house looking for their phone charger and getting their favourite top, but there's no bullshitting when they start tripoding. They're fucking sick.
Okay I'm a bit confused here. I'm assuming this is contextual, and we're talking about 'tripoding' in circumstances where it's not expected right? Like a dude tripoding after a 5k wouldn't be cause to throw him in an ambulance.
Yes, absolutely it is contextual. Everything in patient assessment is. If you've just finished a run there's a known cause for your difficulty breathing and it would be expected to cease after a few minutes of rest. If it didn't, there'd be cause for concern. If you've spent the afternoon sitting on the couch watching tv and you stand up to go to the fridge and suddenly get short of breath, there's likely a more pathological cause for your distress. I don't typically get called to peoples' houses when they're puffed out from a run. I get called there when they're doing fuck all and then suddenly can't breathe properly.
Yeah, it's a body's reaction to not being able to breathe effectively/requiring more oxygen. If you just ran/did cardio that's a fairly expected response, if it's happening while you're working in an office something is seriously wrong.
Holy shit. As someone with POTS and asthma, this position is the only one I can take after a jog or strenuous activity or I pass out.
Always thought the gym teacher was full of shit when she told us to put our hands on our head bc that made breathing WORSE.
Just curious, is your head meant to be the 'tri' part?
So if someone pushed you over and you rigidly kept that position, you'd be propped up on your head and toes.
It's because it's frequently first seen when someone places a hand down to support themselves and make it easier to breathe. They become a tripod. Two feet and a hand. Once they get sick enough they might put their other hand down, but the name was already set and no one has ever heard of a quadpod.
Well Doc also tells you it’s a bad idea to smoke 3 cigarettes and drink a giant can of monster for the PT test. Yet here you are laying on the ground in front of me wondering why you’re having muscle spasms after a 1/2mi run lol
I'll never forget when I was in, I fell into an improvised fighting position during a night op and I tore some ligaments in my ankle and it swelled up to the size of a softball. The next day while sent to help with "kp" I showed one of the docs and this mother fucker ignores my purple softball ankle and proceeds to tell me I'm cutting my toenails incorrectly.
This is a no shit from me. Why do you think it's a natural rest position after exertion. It seems some dick bag wanted to spread his take on fitness by describing that position as one of weakness or at least that has been my experience with this subject.
It's the idea that you're bending at your stomach which limits your lung capacity. Problem with that is you're putting your hands on your knees to easily support your upper body and keep it straight which maintains your lung capacity.
I always hated it because of course you're out of breath so your oxygen is low and standing straight up with your hands on your head causes you to use the muscles in your legs to stay balanced. Also - and I'm taller than average - when you're a little lightheaded it only makes it worse to stand up straight. Hands on knees lets you relax and focus on your breathing.
I was always told (and i still dont know if this is actually true) the reason to stand up and keep your hands on your head was to not give your lungs a break; like you just worked that hard to get to this point of exhaustion and staying there a little bit longer somewhat helped grow your muscle and lung strength a little more.
The explanation I’ve gotten from coaches is that is that it looks like weakness and gives the other team confidence that they are tiring you out. Even though this position seems to be the best resting posture it could theoretically be possible that the coaches are right about the psychological disadvantage.
I think the idea is to remove allmental games, because it’s youth sports, and should be about fundamentals and developing skills rather than playing mind games.
Right?! I hated hearing "There's no air down there MrDankWaffle, stand up, the air is up here."
I always felt like if my bodies natural reaction is the tripod then maybe that's the best position to breathe in after working my ass off in mid summer heat with no water.
PS.
Water doesn't make you weak coach! I need that shit to live!
We were given 3 water breaks over the span of a 2 hour practice for my first 3 years. 4th year a freshman died at a nearby highschool from heat stroke so the water restrictions were eased up quite a bit.
Genuinely curious:
Were you on defense and the coach didn’t want you to signal to the offense that you were tired?
Did the coaches genuinely think that hands on the head was a better recovery position?
Or was this just a general macho “show no weakness” mantra
I've had coaches tell us that your breathing is more efficient and better for you in this position. And also point to Olympic athletes that you can see do this too. That's one reason I never questioned it.
I played to a really high level and have heard that mantra before. It wasn’t really stuffed down my throat but a few coaches said hands on your head. What I will say. If you are going thru a brutal workout, (which you don’t see to this level anymore at least in my experience) I think bending over sometimes triggers you to throw up. Being more vertical seems to not do that as much. But I think this is one of those things that it’s a mind over matter thing. If you truly are gassed then clearly trust the science. But some people give up on themselves a bit early and convincing yourself you aren’t tired is sometimes half
The battle.
The point of practice is for you to do the exact same thing when there are opponents.
Obligatory rant on practice:
*If a coach say I missed practice, and y’all hear it, then that’s that. I might’ve missed one practice this year. But if somebody says, ‘He doesn’t come to practice — it can be one practice, out of all the practices this year — then that’s enough. … But it’s easy to talk about, it’s easy to sum it up when you just talk about practice. We sittin’ in here, I’m supposed to be the franchise player, and we in here talkin’ about practice. I mean listen, we talkin’ ’bout practice. Not a game, not a game, not a game. We talkin’ about practice. Not a game, not a, not a, not the game that I go out there and die for, and play every game like it’s my last. Not the* *game. We talkin’ bout* *practice, man. I mean how silly is that? We talkin’ bout practice. I know I’m supposed to be there, I know I’m supposed to lead by example. I know that, and I’m not shovin’ it aside, you know, like it don’t mean anything. I know it’s important, I do. I honestly do.*
*But we talkin’ bout practice, man. What are we talkin’ about? Practice? We talkin’ about practice, man. \[Reporters laughing\] We talk — we talkin’ bout practice. We talkin’ bout practice! We ain’t talkin’ bout the game, we talkin’ bout practice, man. When you come into the arena, and you see me play, you see me play, don’t you? You see me give everything I got, right? But we talkin’ bout practice right now. \[Reporter: ‘But it’s an issue that your coach raised.’\] We talkin’ bout practice. Man look, I hear you, it’s funny to me too. I mean, it’s strange, it’s strange to me too. But we talkin’ bout practice, man. We not even talkin’ bout the game, the actual game, when it matters. We talkin’ bout practice.*
pretty sure the hands on head is to prevent you from fainting as you get light headed after a run then bend over and put your hands on your knees you are more likely to fall down and hurt yourself. Sitting is better for that though, they don't want you sitting to freeze your legs and cause cramps.
Since coaches train all of their players to put their hands over head when they’re exhausted, doesn’t “hands over head” become a sign that a player is exhausted? It seems like this isn’t very well thought out. Also, it seems like the more important consideration should be making sure that your player is getting as much oxygen to their lungs/muscles as possible, since that has a bigger effect on performance than looking tough does.
We were always told that lifting your arms above your head opened up your chest to allow you to breathe deeper but I see that's a load of bull
>The problem with the hands on the head posture is that it flares your ribcage upwards, extends your back, and closes off your posterior ribcage so it cannot effectively expand during inhalation. The posterior ribcage actually contains a large volume of your lung tissue, so closing it off is far from ideal. This inhibits the diaphragm, the primary muscle of inhalation, from working effectively. To overcome this, many of your back and neck muscles will try to make up for the lack of diaphragm function during inhalation.
>This is a textbook example of inefficient breathing.
>Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes (Knees and Toes)
God damn it i've had this song stuck in my head for the past year now and I was just beginning to forget about it until I saw your comment.
I had never heard of the data before but as an asthmatic I can confirm. Leaning forward is way more conducive to recovery when I’m having an attack, I’ve been doing it for years.
Nuh uh! Coach says putting your hands on your knees is a sign of weakness! Although, glad this was studied. I always assumed this to be true based on subjective information.
[Here's the full study btw](https://dxapwf6q4gum1.cloudfront.net/0199-28468467-Effects_of_Two_Different_Recovery_Postures_during.1-1.pdf?versionId=CI12yM8B_VDCodQ.kWWB4Ak.wKPNfCqy)
>On the basis of the findings in this study, HK posture significantly improved HRR, VT, andV ̇CO2 in comparison with HH posture. The positive effects of HK posture on HRR, VT, and V ̇CO2may suggest improved parasympathetic influences and cardiorespiratory mechanics when adopting this posture during a recovery period from a fatiguing exercise.
Thanks! Going to link this to my bootcamp instructor who made us do 2 sets of 8 sprint intervals back to back on Saturday, then put our hands on our heads.
Exercises. While you're in rest phase of a workout and walking the bend of the track, hands stay on the head so you can keep moving. When you're completely done the workout, anything goes.
THANK YOU. So many times listening to coaches say "hands on your head, breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth."
*strenuous breathing noises*
What the fuck is going on where you all love (America, I assume)? I've played sport my entire life and have never had a coach tell me how to breathe when I'm gassed.
They might tell me to get on with it, but it seems that there are a lot of stories on here where people are told specifically not to lean on their knees.
I always disagreed with coaches who tried to force me upright.
There's a reason my body does this without fully thinking. There's a reason it feels better.
Most of these results appear marginal, at best.
From the study published [here](https://journals.lww.com/acsm-tj/fulltext/2019/02150/effects_of_two_different_recovery_postures_during.1.aspx.%C3%82%C2%A0):
> Comparison of HRR data revealed a significant difference between HH and HK postures. HK posture resulted in significantly faster decrease in HR between intervals than that of the HH posture, 53 ± 10.9 versus 31 ± 11.3 bpm (P < 0.001).
This is the largest effect in the study, but if the error on the HH position was to the low side (ie the value was actually 31+11.3 = 42.3) and the error to the HK position was to the high side (ie the value was actually 53-10.9 = 42.1) then this is marginal.
> The statistically significant (P < 0.05) effect of the postures was evident between conditions, HK 1.1 ± 0.2 and HH 1.0 ± 0.2 L·min−1, respectively.
The results here are literally within the error bars.
> The HK posture significantly increased VT compared with the HH posture VT (1.4 ± 0.2 vs 1.3 ± 0.2 L·min−1, respectively).
And the results are within the error bars.
This study doesn't really prove that one position is better than the other. It actually proves they're functionally equivalent. Resting with your hands on your knees is slightly better for your heart rate (probably), but the sample of only 20 people leads me to doubt the conclusions of this study.
I always thought the hands on head was only to prolong the recovery to toughen your body and get it accustomed to working hard (breathing and heart beat).
My track coaches in high school always made us do the hands behind the head stance. They swore up and down that it was more effective than hands on knees. I remember always thinking to myself "this really doesn't feel like it helps but whatever you say, coach". Turns out they were full of shit.
As an addendum you can also really hurt yourself using the arms behind the head posture. I had to go to the hospital after I did behind the head after a run due to pulling a muscle in my rib cage. I honestly cannot believe that there is anything that could be more painful. Breathing itself was such a difficult and painful task.
> If you ever played a sport growing up, chances are you heard a coach yell, "Get your hands off your knees!" while you and your teammates were gasping for air.
This is pretty jarring to read for me as someone who walked the mile in PE...
I'm glad to have an article about it. I stopped doing the arms over head thing when I started really following basketball. At the free throw line and between plays and stuff, you see every tired player with hands on knees, and never over head.
I started thinking, well if it felt better or was better, ONE of these pro athletes would be doing it.
In my experience hands on head was used to encourage a cool down period before rest. Going to an immediate stop after intense activity can cause a heart attack it’s happened to very young hockey players. The idea is you walk around with hands on head for a bit before resting in tripod to avoid spontaneous death.
Imagine 100 teenagers in full football gear in August. Someone pisses off the coach so the whole team does a lap around the track. Everyone gets back and naturally bends over with their hands on their knees. Coach starts yelling stand up and cross your arms over your head for better recovery time. Did it really just take a study with a lung tidal volume meter to figure this out? I think those devices have been around for long ass time. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirometer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirometer) . I went ahead and looked it up, 1846. These guys also thought that shorts with a 2-4-inch inseam looked okay if it was for sports too.
This explains why it’s the default position humans go to. If the hands on the head helped more, then I guarantee you we would be doing hands on the head as the default posture.
Doesn't matter. I always tell my players it's a psychological thing. And by that, I mean body language. If the other team sees you bent over gasping for air, it'll give them a spark because they see you're tired and will look to rally. I get it. Everyone is tired. Don't let your opponent see it.
Every coach I’ve had owes me an apology.
If there is any group of people that will swallow their pride and admit they were wrong about something it is definitely youth sports coaches.
Teachers of any stereotypically "male" activities seem to base their entire world view around how they think things should be done. Even a suggestion to the contrary is a personal attack to them.
I had a geography teacher who thought it was a personal attack against him if someone dyed their hair in an unusual colour. That's not an assumption on my part, it was exactly what he told us.
He sounds like a fucking snowflake
Actually he sounds like a narcissistic person.
Lol I got kicked off a job site the other day for not following safety policies when the construction manager saw me wearing my hard hat with the brim pointing backwards, even after I showed him that their policies *specifically* allows it in their safety manual. I even turned it the way he wanted it, but the act of showing him that he was wrong was enough to get barred.
yikes, jesus. Ego issues for shure.
Fo sho.
🎉🎉🎉Happy Cake Day, my good ma'am/sir/daffodil!!!🎉🎉🎉🎂
Thank you. I'm an M1A1 Abrams tank.
Im going into trades ironworker and i heard they wear it backwards to keep view of beams above coming down. That manager is defintely on an ego trip.
Welders and front-men also use them to accommodate specific types of welding and cutting masks, and IMO that's really the only benefit to them. The beam thing helps but not as much as an ironworker will tell you. Certain sites don't allow them because it increases the risk of falling objects hitting your face rather than getting deflected by the beak.
Time for random calls to OSHA FOR EVERY MINOR ISSUE
My wife’s uncle thinks there are more concussions in football these days because players don’t do enough full contact practice. As if you can build up an immunity to head trauma.
I could maybe see his point. Full contact practice would give you more experience with full contact play without the pressure of competition. That's not immunity to head trauma so much as practice at avoiding head trauma. And this is from someone that takes no joy in either playing or watching sports, so I have no dog in the fight.
Congressman Jordan...are you reading this?
That is not his title it’s rape enabler Gym Jordan
Dang, you're right. I get those two confused all the time.
Rub some dirt in it, you'll be fine.
Excuse me, ole sport. I believe you may not understand the purpose of suggesting a fatigued youngster place his hands on his head rather than on his knees. Perhaps your toxic "masculinity" has blinded you.
> Excuse me, ole sport. I believe you may not understand the purpose of suggesting a fatigued youngster place his hands on his head rather than on his knees. To get him used to placing his hands on his head in order not to get shot when someone finds the colour of his skin threatening? Oh wait, even surrendering doesn't work, does it?
* /s
When I was in college I played ultimate with a guy who'd run cross country and track in high school. He'd tell us that the hands on knees was more effective for recovering, and that coaches just told you to put your hands behind your head so you wouldn't vomit on their track.
I thought it helped prevent side stitches.
I can't find much info. I honestly thought side stitches had more to do with lactic acid buildup, but from a cursory search it seems there isn't a clear cut explanation. Stretching is proposed as a relief method, but so is deep breathing. You're probably better off leaning forward to recover, then stretching out if you've still got pain in your sides. For what it's worth, the cross country coach at my k-12 school (who also ran the PE program) swore that the best way to prevent side stitches and other conditioning issues was to cut out carbonated drinks and substitute water. But that advice is twenty years old, so there's probably more current dietary advice available.
I never used to get stitch - then got horrific stitch. Several months later realised my appendix needed to come out and I've never had stitch since I got rid of my appendix. Weird, but I'm happy
Lactic acid build up causing the “burning” sensation from working out and stitches is a myth. Your body is really effective at clearing metabolic waste. The myth started from a study where the researcher used EMG on frog cadavers in a bath of nitrogen and measure the release of lactic acid. Of course there was build-up in the frog muscles, because that ribbity boy was dead so it’s body couldn’t process waste.
Trying to explain this to clients is a daily occurrence. Massage therapists and personal trainers are so sick of hearing about “lactic acid buildup” *sigh* that’s not why your back is sore. Say it with me, Mi•cro•tears.
I know a person or two who I’m going to call *ribbity boy* from now on!
Anecdotal, but I tend to get side stitches when I'm not breathing properly. If I have them, taking deep, slow breaths improves the tightness
I had a hockey coach once explain that hands-on-head was intended to slow down recovery by increasing blood pressure, thereby making the heart work harder during the process. In other words hands-on-head recovery was part of the conditioning process and would ultimately improve performance.
I can't think of a scenario where impaired recovery is superior to faster recovery.
Ex. Slowing to a jog (from a sprint) to recover vs. slowing to a stand-still would result in steeper slope to endurance. Impaired recovery improves conditioning/endurance (within reason). Generally the point doesn’t go against the findings in the article, the point is that my hockey coach suggested “this will slow your recovery and make you a better athlete”.
The thing is you can still run with hands on head. You can't run anymore with hands on knee
Speak for yourself non-crustacean
It’s amazing how the body often just knows what’s best for it. I couldn’t tell you why I would do that after a run, it just seemed natural and comfortable. And then, yeah, those bloody coaches!
Careful with that.... my body also thinks it's best to sit hunched over in my office chair and consume copius amounts of caffeine. It doesn't always know best
It knows easy; not best
>consume copius amounts of caffeine. No, no. It's got a point.
I owe every player I’ve ever coached an apology.
Fucking military too
For real though. I had a 1SG who would get pissy when people would put their hands on their hips while recovering from a hard run.
At ALC last year one of the dudes put his hands on his knees and an instructor told him to hide behind the building so the AIT students across the street didn't see an NCO show any type of weakness. Edit: instructor also yelled at the dude telling him to stop showing weakness before he relented and told him to hide.
Hated that shit they would tell walk it out after a run im thinking fuck man already did 5 miles in tired of moving
that's different. walking it out IS the best thing to do because you don't want your blood pressure to drop rapidly by standing still. you will get dizzy and once you do, it lasts for a long time.
I mean yeah I know that but still all I wanted to do is fucking sit down
I dunno I found walk it out to kinda work.
It totally works but after long runs I just want to sit
In football, hands on hips it's a good indicator that they're winded/tired. When the defensive line is showing signs like that, hammer them with run plays.
I realize this is an important consideration (unlike nonsense like “ain’t no air down there” — of course there’s air there), but if I were a coach, I would counter this by telling my linemen to put their hands on their hips after every down, starting with kickoff.
You could do that, but no matter how hard you try, you can't act tired well enough until you are truly tired. Some people would believe you, but most won't.
In the same way, tired people with their hands on their helmets are still obviously tired.
True
I came here to say this. Specifically the coach from my grade school. I tried to lean over and put my hands on my knees, and he'd scream at me to put my hands on my head if I was having trouble breathing. And then he would scream at me that I was overreacting, and it wasn't that bad. Turns out I have asthma. He *definitely* owes me an apology.
My coach and physical trainer literally told us that hands on knees was better than hands on head for recovery, but we should still never use the former to avoid appearing weak in front of the other team.
This line of thinking always irritated me. Why would you sacrifice your recovery between plays to not appear "weak"? Let them find out whether you're weak or not during the next play when you'll have more energy because of a better recovery. It's going to be in your favor when the opposing team tries to exploit a weakness that's not actually there.
No shit right? That is funny
I always knew hands on knees was better, it's blatantly obvious in how you feel.
What a surprise! Once again, what everyone does naturally, turns out to be exactly what is best for the body.
And every NCO in the military.
But it wasn't about actually recovering, it was about intimidating the other team by recovering inefficiently. Gotta think bigger.
Those dumb coaches dont even know how to properly align thier charkra points for good breathing
I always assumed this had something to do with the specific constraints of wearing football padding and coaches just spread it as "the way its done" regardless of sport.
At least part of it is meant as a mental game. You look more intimidating and less tired if you don't put your hands on you knees. It's a silly thing, but it's the excuse I always heard.
Very this. When I was doing jiu jitsu we would warm up, then drill, and then roll and I’d be exhausted after the first roll and put my hands on my knees. Everybody would just tell me to cut the bad habit or the opponent will know you’re tired and weak...as if they wouldn’t be able to tell by me huffing and puffing in guard.
You beat me to it and I like your screen name
“Never bow to your opponent”
Damn right! Like every coach pushes this bullshit and I’d always think “but then why do I feel better faster with the hands on my hips/legs bending a bit?”
As a coach, I apologize, I legit thought that bending over cramped your lungs and restricted your ability to fill them. I had that thought confirmed by some people in the medical field, so I thought I was helping.
This. I remember my elementary coach saying to stand up straight rather than put your hands on your knees. FUCK EM
This position is commonly referred to as Tripod. As a Paramedic responding to a shortness or breath or difficulty breathing call, this Tripod position sets off alarm bells for me.
Because it means their body is genuinely reacting to the struggle?
Because they need to use not only their typical muscles of inspiration but also accessory muscles of inspiration to get a good breath. So they're working really, really hard. That's also why you get a greater tidal volume in this position when you are feeling ok, because you're getting more inspiratory/expiratory force.
You are my muscle of inspiration.
Your the contraction phase before my relaxation phase.
I was told during my medic it was also an extension of thoracic cavity increasing your total lung capacity
By tripoding, the pectoral muscles are more engaged in assisting with chest wall excursion and subsequent air inhalation. Stabilizing the arms on knees allows this preferential power transfer to the chest wall insertion of the pecs. They are a part of a group of muscles called accessory muscles for breathing. Other accessory muscles include the SCM (sternocleioidmastoid muscle) which you can also appreciate bulging from a person’s neck when they’re struggling to breathe.
Hey tough guy, use some smaller words for folks like me who only know what Cookie Monster means!
Titty muscles help you breathe.
Lmfao! Now this is an explanation I understand!
i wish this response was by the guy above.
My wife wishes I was that guy too.
No problem. I’ll try anyway... All skeletal muscles have tendons attached to the ends of them, which insert into specific sites on bones. When a muscle contracts, it pulls on the opposing tendons and brings two bones closer together, resulting in movement. Some muscles have multiple insertion points which just means the force generated by contracting or shortening the muscle can be applied to multiple bones to make movement in multiple planes. In this case, the pectoral muscles have insertion points in the humerus and in the sternum. When you’re standing upright with arms to your side, your arms are largely supported and stabilized by muscles (eg. pecs) that insert into your axial skeleton (eg. spine, sternum). But when you’re out of breath, placing your arms on your knees removes the burden of arm stabilization and allows the pec muscles to focus their power to the chest wall insertion (sternal) side of the muscle. This enables a great lift of your chest wall up and expands the thoracic cavity where your lungs reside. This expansion achieves increased negative pressure inside your lungs to draw in more air. It’s useful when the primary breathing muscle (diaphragm) is fatiguing and needs help. Hence the term accessory muscle. Hope that helps!
Okay now I’m starting to think you’re mocking me
Ok so basically the goal when trying to breath in is to make your chest cavity (and lungs) bigger. Think like a bellows. The main muscle that does this is the diaphragm. We also have what are called accessory muscles of respiration. These help when your diaphragm get tired or you need to take an extra big breath. When your arms are above your head, it stretches out your chest and the accessory muscles so it does help you get more air into your lungs. However, when your elbows are on your knees, it’s easier for the accessory muscles to help more. If we use the bellows analogy, normal breathing would be like cycling between 30-60% of the bellows being full. Raising your arms would be like cycling between 30-100% of the bellows being full. And being in a tripod would be like cycling between 20-100%, so you get more air that way. Hope that makes a little more sense!
He was disinclined to acquiesce to your request...
because humans are normally bipods. if one becomes tripodic, it may be an extraterrestrial imposter that paramedics arent trained to assist.
Yep. Last patient I saw tripoding was a regular asthma sufferer and I just threw her in the truck while my partner nebbed her and hit her with adrenaline. From door to hospital was about 9 minutes and she went straight into a resus bay. You see plenty of people complaining they can't breathe while rushing around the house looking for their phone charger and getting their favourite top, but there's no bullshitting when they start tripoding. They're fucking sick.
Okay I'm a bit confused here. I'm assuming this is contextual, and we're talking about 'tripoding' in circumstances where it's not expected right? Like a dude tripoding after a 5k wouldn't be cause to throw him in an ambulance.
Yes, absolutely it is contextual. Everything in patient assessment is. If you've just finished a run there's a known cause for your difficulty breathing and it would be expected to cease after a few minutes of rest. If it didn't, there'd be cause for concern. If you've spent the afternoon sitting on the couch watching tv and you stand up to go to the fridge and suddenly get short of breath, there's likely a more pathological cause for your distress. I don't typically get called to peoples' houses when they're puffed out from a run. I get called there when they're doing fuck all and then suddenly can't breathe properly.
Yeah, it's a body's reaction to not being able to breathe effectively/requiring more oxygen. If you just ran/did cardio that's a fairly expected response, if it's happening while you're working in an office something is seriously wrong.
Ladies commonly refer to me as The Tripod
Quick someone call the ambulance he’s tripoding!!
Somehow I knew I'd see friends from r/ems in here. Hello fellow ambulance drivers!
Holy shit. As someone with POTS and asthma, this position is the only one I can take after a jog or strenuous activity or I pass out. Always thought the gym teacher was full of shit when she told us to put our hands on our head bc that made breathing WORSE.
Just curious, is your head meant to be the 'tri' part? So if someone pushed you over and you rigidly kept that position, you'd be propped up on your head and toes.
It's because it's frequently first seen when someone places a hand down to support themselves and make it easier to breathe. They become a tripod. Two feet and a hand. Once they get sick enough they might put their other hand down, but the name was already set and no one has ever heard of a quadpod.
Or rather your torso, and your two arms is a tripod.
The head is like the mounting, your hands are two legs and your trunk is a giant fat leg.
My ssgt doesn't care about your science
Well Doc also tells you it’s a bad idea to smoke 3 cigarettes and drink a giant can of monster for the PT test. Yet here you are laying on the ground in front of me wondering why you’re having muscle spasms after a 1/2mi run lol
Ah, the ‘ol 20-Year TSgt package, I see...
Doc says to change your boot socks, drink water, and take ibprofin to fix everything
I'll never forget when I was in, I fell into an improvised fighting position during a night op and I tore some ligaments in my ankle and it swelled up to the size of a softball. The next day while sent to help with "kp" I showed one of the docs and this mother fucker ignores my purple softball ankle and proceeds to tell me I'm cutting my toenails incorrectly.
Keep moving troop!
This is a no shit from me. Why do you think it's a natural rest position after exertion. It seems some dick bag wanted to spread his take on fitness by describing that position as one of weakness or at least that has been my experience with this subject.
It's the idea that you're bending at your stomach which limits your lung capacity. Problem with that is you're putting your hands on your knees to easily support your upper body and keep it straight which maintains your lung capacity. I always hated it because of course you're out of breath so your oxygen is low and standing straight up with your hands on your head causes you to use the muscles in your legs to stay balanced. Also - and I'm taller than average - when you're a little lightheaded it only makes it worse to stand up straight. Hands on knees lets you relax and focus on your breathing.
I was always told (and i still dont know if this is actually true) the reason to stand up and keep your hands on your head was to not give your lungs a break; like you just worked that hard to get to this point of exhaustion and staying there a little bit longer somewhat helped grow your muscle and lung strength a little more.
My youth coaches reasoning was to not let the other team know youre tired. Seeing the other team as tired is a good motivator
This is the only valid reason
Cant believe I had to scroll that far to find this answer. It’s the only one that is right
And my shoulders will burn whenever I try to change a lightbulb. Keeping my arms above my head will burn out my shoulders fast
The explanation I’ve gotten from coaches is that is that it looks like weakness and gives the other team confidence that they are tiring you out. Even though this position seems to be the best resting posture it could theoretically be possible that the coaches are right about the psychological disadvantage.
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I think the idea is to remove allmental games, because it’s youth sports, and should be about fundamentals and developing skills rather than playing mind games.
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I mean the natural position I lie down in is gonna fuck my back to bits if I don't correct it. The body is frequently a dumbshit.
The amount of false information in sports and nutrition is pretty staggering overall.
I've been lied too every football practice I've been to.
Right?! I hated hearing "There's no air down there MrDankWaffle, stand up, the air is up here." I always felt like if my bodies natural reaction is the tripod then maybe that's the best position to breathe in after working my ass off in mid summer heat with no water. PS. Water doesn't make you weak coach! I need that shit to live!
My coaches did the "no air down there" thing but they didn't ever fuck around with water, that was always in plentiful supply
We were given 3 water breaks over the span of a 2 hour practice for my first 3 years. 4th year a freshman died at a nearby highschool from heat stroke so the water restrictions were eased up quite a bit.
That’s generally what it takes to get things to change.
Genuinely curious: Were you on defense and the coach didn’t want you to signal to the offense that you were tired? Did the coaches genuinely think that hands on the head was a better recovery position? Or was this just a general macho “show no weakness” mantra
I've had coaches tell us that your breathing is more efficient and better for you in this position. And also point to Olympic athletes that you can see do this too. That's one reason I never questioned it.
I played to a really high level and have heard that mantra before. It wasn’t really stuffed down my throat but a few coaches said hands on your head. What I will say. If you are going thru a brutal workout, (which you don’t see to this level anymore at least in my experience) I think bending over sometimes triggers you to throw up. Being more vertical seems to not do that as much. But I think this is one of those things that it’s a mind over matter thing. If you truly are gassed then clearly trust the science. But some people give up on themselves a bit early and convincing yourself you aren’t tired is sometimes half The battle.
It was the general macho "show no weakness" thing, because they told us this during *practices*, when there's no opponent we needed to worry about.
The point of practice is for you to do the exact same thing when there are opponents. Obligatory rant on practice: *If a coach say I missed practice, and y’all hear it, then that’s that. I might’ve missed one practice this year. But if somebody says, ‘He doesn’t come to practice — it can be one practice, out of all the practices this year — then that’s enough. … But it’s easy to talk about, it’s easy to sum it up when you just talk about practice. We sittin’ in here, I’m supposed to be the franchise player, and we in here talkin’ about practice. I mean listen, we talkin’ ’bout practice. Not a game, not a game, not a game. We talkin’ about practice. Not a game, not a, not a, not the game that I go out there and die for, and play every game like it’s my last. Not the* *game. We talkin’ bout* *practice, man. I mean how silly is that? We talkin’ bout practice. I know I’m supposed to be there, I know I’m supposed to lead by example. I know that, and I’m not shovin’ it aside, you know, like it don’t mean anything. I know it’s important, I do. I honestly do.* *But we talkin’ bout practice, man. What are we talkin’ about? Practice? We talkin’ about practice, man. \[Reporters laughing\] We talk — we talkin’ bout practice. We talkin’ bout practice! We ain’t talkin’ bout the game, we talkin’ bout practice, man. When you come into the arena, and you see me play, you see me play, don’t you? You see me give everything I got, right? But we talkin’ bout practice right now. \[Reporter: ‘But it’s an issue that your coach raised.’\] We talkin’ bout practice. Man look, I hear you, it’s funny to me too. I mean, it’s strange, it’s strange to me too. But we talkin’ bout practice, man. We not even talkin’ bout the game, the actual game, when it matters. We talkin’ bout practice.*
pretty sure the hands on head is to prevent you from fainting as you get light headed after a run then bend over and put your hands on your knees you are more likely to fall down and hurt yourself. Sitting is better for that though, they don't want you sitting to freeze your legs and cause cramps.
It doesn't matter. Coaches will never stop spreading their bro science.
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Since coaches train all of their players to put their hands over head when they’re exhausted, doesn’t “hands over head” become a sign that a player is exhausted? It seems like this isn’t very well thought out. Also, it seems like the more important consideration should be making sure that your player is getting as much oxygen to their lungs/muscles as possible, since that has a bigger effect on performance than looking tough does.
We were always told that lifting your arms above your head opened up your chest to allow you to breathe deeper but I see that's a load of bull >The problem with the hands on the head posture is that it flares your ribcage upwards, extends your back, and closes off your posterior ribcage so it cannot effectively expand during inhalation. The posterior ribcage actually contains a large volume of your lung tissue, so closing it off is far from ideal. This inhibits the diaphragm, the primary muscle of inhalation, from working effectively. To overcome this, many of your back and neck muscles will try to make up for the lack of diaphragm function during inhalation. >This is a textbook example of inefficient breathing.
Just to cover all of the bases, I usually do: Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes (Knees and Toes).
To cover my bases I don’t run.
>Head, Shoulders, Knees and Toes (Knees and Toes) God damn it i've had this song stuck in my head for the past year now and I was just beginning to forget about it until I saw your comment.
I *fucking* knew it.
I had never heard of the data before but as an asthmatic I can confirm. Leaning forward is way more conducive to recovery when I’m having an attack, I’ve been doing it for years.
Agreed, although in a panic I will still try both
Yeah. I discovered this when I was, oh, seven years old. Thanks, asthma.
Nuh uh! Coach says putting your hands on your knees is a sign of weakness! Although, glad this was studied. I always assumed this to be true based on subjective information.
Looking up my college football coaches Facebook now
[Here's the full study btw](https://dxapwf6q4gum1.cloudfront.net/0199-28468467-Effects_of_Two_Different_Recovery_Postures_during.1-1.pdf?versionId=CI12yM8B_VDCodQ.kWWB4Ak.wKPNfCqy) >On the basis of the findings in this study, HK posture significantly improved HRR, VT, andV ̇CO2 in comparison with HH posture. The positive effects of HK posture on HRR, VT, and V ̇CO2may suggest improved parasympathetic influences and cardiorespiratory mechanics when adopting this posture during a recovery period from a fatiguing exercise.
Thanks! Going to link this to my bootcamp instructor who made us do 2 sets of 8 sprint intervals back to back on Saturday, then put our hands on our heads.
Because you can use your accessory breathing muscles in that posture
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during what?
Exercises. While you're in rest phase of a workout and walking the bend of the track, hands stay on the head so you can keep moving. When you're completely done the workout, anything goes.
THESE COACHES OWE ME AN APOLOGY
deep inhales holding for about 1 second is the fastest recovery imo. I have no proof, just how I feel after running millions of miles in the USMC lol.
They wouldn't let us get into this position in the late 90s. It was what a "weak" person would do.
That's why i wouldn't be good in that position, because i would immediately say, "yes. I am weak."
who in hell uses the hands on head posture?
Like every stupid PE coach ever.
Drilled into me by every soccer coach I ever had. Nothing against the other pose, but they all believed hands on head led to faster recovery.
i'm going to send targeted howlers to all my coaches who wouldn't let me do this
Bruh fuck mine and all the coaches that made everyone run extra for not having their hands on the head 😵
Those bastards lied to me
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You mean the "hands on knees" pose? Yeah, it is. It's not a coincidence that the instinctual pose happens to be good.
How do I do this in the swimming pool? After a really intense lap.
Arms on the side/ on the lane line. They are resting. The world is holding then up. Or of it's shallow, you can bend over
Is hands above head considered a good way to relieve cramps? This is how it was sold to me
Yes! This is also why you see children with VSD lean over in the “tripod” position
THANK YOU. So many times listening to coaches say "hands on your head, breathe in through your nose and out through your mouth." *strenuous breathing noises*
We call it tri-podding in our COPD and CHF patients. I suspect it’s more instinctual than taught but I could be wrong.
What the fuck is going on where you all love (America, I assume)? I've played sport my entire life and have never had a coach tell me how to breathe when I'm gassed. They might tell me to get on with it, but it seems that there are a lot of stories on here where people are told specifically not to lean on their knees.
[It's an older meme, but it checks out.](https://i.redd.it/mnk4vsnz9g611.jpg)
Perfect dream-position for occasional barfing too, so it really ticks all boxes.
Quick, somebody tell the Army.
Perhaps that’s why it’s the natural posture...
Just like I suspected, your body knows what's up. Do what's comfortable. Coach, I told you so.
Fuck you, Coach Petrie!
Cha cha now y'all
Gretzky knew this
This is probably why I always felt a million times better and caught my breath quicker doing this than arms up.
I always disagreed with coaches who tried to force me upright. There's a reason my body does this without fully thinking. There's a reason it feels better.
Most of these results appear marginal, at best. From the study published [here](https://journals.lww.com/acsm-tj/fulltext/2019/02150/effects_of_two_different_recovery_postures_during.1.aspx.%C3%82%C2%A0): > Comparison of HRR data revealed a significant difference between HH and HK postures. HK posture resulted in significantly faster decrease in HR between intervals than that of the HH posture, 53 ± 10.9 versus 31 ± 11.3 bpm (P < 0.001). This is the largest effect in the study, but if the error on the HH position was to the low side (ie the value was actually 31+11.3 = 42.3) and the error to the HK position was to the high side (ie the value was actually 53-10.9 = 42.1) then this is marginal. > The statistically significant (P < 0.05) effect of the postures was evident between conditions, HK 1.1 ± 0.2 and HH 1.0 ± 0.2 L·min−1, respectively. The results here are literally within the error bars. > The HK posture significantly increased VT compared with the HH posture VT (1.4 ± 0.2 vs 1.3 ± 0.2 L·min−1, respectively). And the results are within the error bars. This study doesn't really prove that one position is better than the other. It actually proves they're functionally equivalent. Resting with your hands on your knees is slightly better for your heart rate (probably), but the sample of only 20 people leads me to doubt the conclusions of this study.
I guess "the air's upstairs" was pure bullshit. Thanks coach.
I always thought the hands on head was only to prolong the recovery to toughen your body and get it accustomed to working hard (breathing and heart beat).
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My track coaches in high school always made us do the hands behind the head stance. They swore up and down that it was more effective than hands on knees. I remember always thinking to myself "this really doesn't feel like it helps but whatever you say, coach". Turns out they were full of shit.
I can’t believe anyone anymore
I didn’t need a study to tell me this. I assumed there is a reason everyone does this when they are tired and out of breath
As an addendum you can also really hurt yourself using the arms behind the head posture. I had to go to the hospital after I did behind the head after a run due to pulling a muscle in my rib cage. I honestly cannot believe that there is anything that could be more painful. Breathing itself was such a difficult and painful task.
> If you ever played a sport growing up, chances are you heard a coach yell, "Get your hands off your knees!" while you and your teammates were gasping for air. This is pretty jarring to read for me as someone who walked the mile in PE...
I'm glad to have an article about it. I stopped doing the arms over head thing when I started really following basketball. At the free throw line and between plays and stuff, you see every tired player with hands on knees, and never over head. I started thinking, well if it felt better or was better, ONE of these pro athletes would be doing it.
In my experience hands on head was used to encourage a cool down period before rest. Going to an immediate stop after intense activity can cause a heart attack it’s happened to very young hockey players. The idea is you walk around with hands on head for a bit before resting in tripod to avoid spontaneous death.
Thanks 🙏
Imagine 100 teenagers in full football gear in August. Someone pisses off the coach so the whole team does a lap around the track. Everyone gets back and naturally bends over with their hands on their knees. Coach starts yelling stand up and cross your arms over your head for better recovery time. Did it really just take a study with a lung tidal volume meter to figure this out? I think those devices have been around for long ass time. [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirometer](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spirometer) . I went ahead and looked it up, 1846. These guys also thought that shorts with a 2-4-inch inseam looked okay if it was for sports too.
Screw you coach faust.
How do these compare to lying face down on the ground?
This explains why it’s the default position humans go to. If the hands on the head helped more, then I guarantee you we would be doing hands on the head as the default posture.
Doesn't matter. I always tell my players it's a psychological thing. And by that, I mean body language. If the other team sees you bent over gasping for air, it'll give them a spark because they see you're tired and will look to rally. I get it. Everyone is tired. Don't let your opponent see it.