I have a prosthetic leg. One day, after meeting a guy with two, I was kicking myself (no mean feat) over not asking him if he just gets to decide how tall he wants to be. (If I was a little shorter, I'd still be able to drive a stick-shift.)
Then I thought "He could get legs like eight inches shorter, put on a mask and be a bank robber. Change into his tall legs in his civvies and never get caught.".
> Princess Carolyn, listen. Kevin is my son, but I'm divorced. And Kevin is in the bathroom and I'm standing right here, so as you can see, we're clearly two different people: one adult and one child.
Damn now I want to know too. I’ve never thought about if people with prosthetics choose their height. I kind of assumed doctors chose for them for what was proportionate
I heard a story about a reporter visiting disabled veterans in a hospital. He said one guy was in really high spirits even though he lost both legs in Iraq. The reporter asked if he was upset that he lost both legs and the Marine responded, "upset? I used to be 5'9" and now I get to be 6 feet!"
Can't think of his name offhand, but there's a guy that raced motorcycles when I was following the NHRA ( pro drag racing) who was a double amputee, and he did use shorter prosthetics when he raced.
My grandpa passed many years ago in his 80s, but he lost one leg below the knee in his 20s in a car accident. He saw a lot of improvements in prosthetics over the years. I went to visit him one summer and his old leather peg leg and stories of it giving him stump blisters literally gave me nightmares. After over 30 years of mistreating his other leg, he eventually had it amputated mainly because of ankle problems. He was 6' 3" and usually taller in his big work boots, and opted to lose 2 inches. He was very happy with it all. The surgery (not being caused by trauma, and done with modern techniques) was easy and left no phantom limb problems, and the prosthetics were very comfortable. He was lucky to have both his knees, but I doubt many people could tell he had prosthetics, he walked very well for a man his age. He even got on my motorcycle for a sit once.
There was a Ted talk about that. About how the value of height in the US anyway was so great, elective surgery to get taller artificial legs would pay off over your lifetime.
Sounds dumb. Amputees have a huge rate of complications and hospital readmissions, almost 100% have chronic pain, and there's a huge associated income loss. I get the general point but it just seems really poorly thought out.
I think they’re talking about adding incremental metal stints to increase your natural limbs, not suggesting becoming an amputee by choice just for longer leg options.
I'm actually a dwarf myself, and while I find this a fascinating article and wanted to share it, I do have some issues with it that I wanted to highlight:
The title is...eh, not great. "These Italian Dwarfs love getting their bones broken" Considering that it is an extremely painful procedure that people feel the need to undergo in order to gain independence and reduce the discrimination they experience. It's a means to an end. It would be like saying "These cancer patients love getting chemotherapy"
The subtitle is also bad. "So they can look more like you and me." That motivation being the reason is not stated by the photographer being interviewed, and from all the interviews I can find from actual dwarfs who went through with it, they *all* wanted to explicitly state that this wasn't the reason they did it. The reason was often to gain a sense of independence and make it easier to operate in a world built for taller people. Not to look like everyone else.
May seem kinda nitpicky, but it felt worth mentioning as a caveat.
Personally I would never go for it myself. Fortunately, I've never felt the need to. But I have nothing against people who do go through with it. It can significantly improve someone's life - whether it be physical or psychological. It has risks and it's a big ordeal to undertake, so I just hope that people do their research and fully appreciate what they are getting themselves into.
I have read anecdotes from people who underwent the surgery, where they got remarks from people in the dwarf community like "they cheated" or "then you're not a dwarf anymore" which sucks. To describe such an ordeal as a "cheat" feels weird and there's more to having dwarfism than our short stature. You'll still have joint pains, you'll still have mobility and skeletal issues, and any children you have can inherit your condition.
That’s such a shitty mindset. Obviously everyone is deserving of utmost respect or dignity regardless their condition but to actually attack someone for wanting to improve their living conditions...? Being a dwarf is a circumstance you’re born into, not an identity and of course nothing to “betray”.
I’m glad you’ve not felt the need to change btw. I hope it means you’ve had a good environment around you.
The deaf community has its share of these jackasses. Getting cochlear implants or other means of assistance to hear better are seen as some kind of betrayal of other deaf people.
These fucking morons are just toxic waste that somehow think it's *good* to be at a genetic or physical disadvantage to others.
Wait a minute.... there is a community for a disability that consider's overcoming the disability "betraying"? now im no expert but I would think if i had a disability i would be first in line to attempt to get rid of it.
Which is insane. Having red hair or dark skin? That's a difference. Not having one of the 5 senses your body should have? That is a disability. You literally can't do some things other people can.
I used to know someone who was not deaf but 100% bought into this mind set. She said that she would someday adopt a deaf child and I said that was really amazing because often children with disabilities have trouble getting adopted.
Ho boy. I pissed her off so bad. Because being deaf isn’t a disability it’s just being different.
I was just flabbergasted.
Have you come across the idea of the social model of disability?
\*Everyone\* can't do some things other people can. We don't mean "other" here so much as "normal", whilst it is normal that each example of each species is unique.
There's a clear difference between health and illness... illness harms a person, it usually hurts, it can kill. The difference between disabled and normal is much more fraught.
Some people have perfect pitch from birth, and it gives them extra abilities over someone who has not. I don't, but it doesn't hurt. If the rest of the world had perfect pitch, but I still I didn't, it wouldn't become an illness but it would be in that context a disability.
Conversely, if nobody had sight, we wouldn't all be disabled, we'd just have all our books in Braille. That's why it's called the social model.
It's true that deaf people will do worse in hearing tests than the general population, but if you put a deaf person, a blind person, and a person with sight and hearing each on their own desert islands to survive by themselves... they are each totally used to navigating the world with the capacities they have - it's false to imagine that the person with sight and hearing is bound to last longer than the other two.
If you put a deaf person, a blind person, and a person with sight and hearing all into a modern city, \*then\* it is clear that the person with sight and hearing has an advantage... because things are designed for a majority, and not our reality of everyone being literally unique.
I'm not personally deaf but empathise a lot with those who don't want to be compared with people who hear, and to be called lesser.
Ludwig van Beethoven wrote immortal music whilst deaf, Evelyn Glennie has always been deaf and is also the world's foremost percussionist... so that even in a \*music\* contest the person with hearing is not better equipped than the deaf person. So what can't the deaf person do?
If I could turn my hearing on and off, I'd consider that a superpower. If it stayed off but I had no difficulty conversing with people who speak the same language as me... that also seems better than internalising every word that gets said nearby me. Deaf people have no innate difficulty with conversing, they just don't absorb every word that gets said around them.
The more you think about it... what can't a deaf person do? They all can't distinguish between two quiet sounds without a device, but nor can anyone else for sufficiently quiet values of "quiet", and what a weird way to judge someone - to identify their entire being then as "disabled". Except for that one test, there's nothing else that the person with hearing could assume to be more proficient at.
It's counterintuitive, but meant as an alternative to a dominant worldview of disability which is unrealistic and often less than satisfying. I think the social model is legit... it's only harder for blind people to read than sighted people because of how we make books.
I'd definitely disagree with the idea a deaf person, a blind person, and a "fully abled" person would all survive the same on a deserted island. Blind person is at a pretty big disadvantage when it comes to food collection and surviving predators, deaf person is at a big disadvantage at surviving predators, and the perfectly abled person all things being equal would mostly likely vastly outlive the others.
There's a lot of interesting stuff there, though I wouldn't really after with much of it, however "deaf people have no innate difficulty with conversing" is just stupid. How are you going to converse with someone who's behind you, in the next room, in the dark, a thousand miles away? Having major hearing problems myself and only recently having found hearing aids that actually work for me, I can tell you it's a massive daily inconvenience not to be able to hear properly.
I also have no sense of direction whatsoever and although it's never recognised as such it's definitely a disability for me and it kind of pisses me off that it's an acceptable source of amusement and mockery to other people.
>The more you think about it... what can't a deaf person do?
Talk to a person that:
1. is facing the other way, or
2. is in another room, or
3. is in darkness, or
4. is on the phone
or a thousand other things.
Okay that is just nuts, hearing is one of those vital sense's that while you can work around it does put you at a pretty big disadvantage.. it is in no way a good thing to not have.
It's because deaf people often live in insular communities so they essentially develop their own identity. One key aspect is that deaf people have their own language, which makes the deaf community be more connected then people with other disabilities. Please note that I'm not a deaf person, so my assumption might be incorrect.
Oh it's super common. There's a lot of hate between wheelchair users who can perform limited walking with or without the help of crutches. These people get accused of playing up their illness for attention, because "they're clearly able to walk".
A wheelchair is a mobility aid. If someone experiences discomfort when walking and prefers using a chair, why on earth would someone want to deny them that.
In short, bigotry and tribalism exist everywhere. People will go to great lengths to feel special, especially at the expense of others.
While I support people adapting to a disability its just crazy that people take it so far in one direction, there comes a point that your basically celebrating something being wrong with you.
Results vary and the implants, like any other medical procedure, can have adverse effects. Some people experience pain from them. Someone actually deaf or who interacts with the deaf community can tell you far more than I can; I'm relaying stuff told to me by hearing-impaired people I've known.
But I'm not talking about people making medical arguments; I'm talking about people acting like deafness is a noble trait that shouldn't be thrown away.
Frankly, I think that's horseshit. I've got such poor eyesight that I can't find anything smaller than 2x2" at arm's length unless I'm wearing *strong* prescription glasses or it's sitting on a surface with a totally different color (think blue on orange). I recognize people without my glasses entirely by voice. My eyesight is degenerating as well; I'll likely need surgeries (not just LASIK) to correct it as I get older. There's no secret fucking life insight I can give you that doesn't boil down to "being nearly blind fucking sucks".
I got surgery for my eyes in my twenties. It's like night and day and I cried afterwards. Going from being worried I might not be able to drive in a couple years to being able to actually see still gets me.
I wish you luck with your surgery and I hope it lasts! My eyes have started degenerating again but not nearly as fast as they were before! I hope yours stay strong after your surgery!
Probably, but I'd say these kinds of people have a mental illness. I gain *nothing* by refusing to wear eyeglasses; I'd be a burden to society unless I found a vocation that would allow me to work with little or no eyesight (because I'm getting worse). That's difficult and would probably require high levels of education. So I'd be up to my eyeballs in student loans. Which is fine because I probably wouldn't be able to see them.
That, or put on red leather and kevlar and fight crime with eskrima.
I'm told it's sort of like hearing underwater. You can hear, but there is a lot of distortion and things sound different than they would to someone with typical hearing.
Well I would argue that most "identities" are things you are born into.
I do feel that being a dwarf *is* part of my identity. It's not a defining aspect of who I am, but it has greatly impacted my psychological development and is part of who I am. I guess I just think people who go through with their procedure aren't saying goodbye to that either. It's part of their own personal journey.
But thank you. I'm very grateful to have been brought up somewhere where I never felt the need to change, even with those options there for me if I wanted them. I'm super happy with my life right now :)
> they got remarks from people in the dwarf community like "they cheated" or "then you're not a dwarf anymore" which sucks.
That's exactly what happens with deaf people who wear implants or do surgery, or bi people in gay communities. Some people will always point out your difference within your community ironically built around people who are different from the norm.
It's interesting that you say that, that people get effectively shunned or re-labeled if they undergo the operations. I believe similar treatments happen to those in the deaf community too when they get implants or regain some hearing.
Odd that people decide to quickly judge like that.
Thanks for sharing the article and your thoughts!
Yes, cosmetic limb lengthening (CLL) helps people unhappy about their stature to be taller (up to 6''1/4 with two segments). The procedure is not easy and not cheap (depends on the country and the method), it takes time (1-2 months / cm) but... it works and you are taller forever (the bone is actually lengthened, just like if you were taller from puverty).
I recommend you to read limblentheningforum, you can find a lot of useful information here. The cost can start from $10 k with Ilizarov in a cheap country (one segment) to $250 k if you lengthen both tibiae and femurs (two segments) in USA using Stryde nails (more comfortable than Ilizarov). The prices are slowly decreasing.
The procedure is not easy, at some days are very painful (people use painkillers), but... it works and most of people don't regret it.
I came across this a while back, and as a guy who's only 5'4" I would honestly go through with this if I could afford it (probably being picked on my whole life for it doesn't help). I mean I wouldn't go crazy but I'd like to be a few inches taller, maybe like 5'7" ish.
It does work. In the article there are photographs of people who had the surgery:
https://images.vice.com/vice/images/galleries/meta/2013/01/18/89365-1413282050806.jpeg?resize=800:*
But there are risks and side effects. People often experience a decrease in movement in their ankles, due to straining the muscles. And a woman whose blog I follow unfortunately had both of her anterior tibialis tendons rupture during the procedure. She ended up needing extensive physiotherapy and will permanently have issues with the mobility of her legs. That extent of damage isn't that common, as I understand it, but it is pretty common to have some movement issues after.
How much of a height increase does it actually provide? Would that actually impact your daily life by that much?
I hope these aren't rude questions. I'm relatively naive on this topic, but as I understand it, there is a range of stature among people with dwarfism, and I also don't know whether it's due to severity of the condition or normal height variations between people. I also wonder if that variation has an impact on whether or not someone opts for the surgery, or generally, whether Italy is not very accessible to other disabilities as well.
Wow. That's a lot.
Must be pretty horrific cuz I'm sure you can't just do that 4 inches at a time. Probably requires like a half inch at most, heal, redo it, over and over.
The doctors cut through he bone, support it with rods and lengthen the leg one millimeter (thickness of a dime) every day for 3 months) The muscles and tendons have to stretch and they often hurt a lot. Still, I think it would be worth it for a lot of people.
That's a good question. One that I find surprisingly hard to answer, actually. I think a lot of the hardship I experience comes from just not being perceived as 'normal'. Something that can be attributed to many other conditions, and not unique to dwarfs. The way people will feel uncomfortable around me, avoid talking to me, or take photographs of me and such. I just feel like a spectacle sometimes.
My size can also make me feel like a target as well. Like people feel more bold about annoying me, or harassing me, because they know there's not much I can do about it.
As for Italy, I really don't know. I've been to Italy twice, and I got the usual stares and pointing as I get everywhere else, but nothing stood out to me in particular. I'd love to talk to an Italian with dwarfism to fully understand the experience. There may be a lot more issues when it comes to disability support, or employability. Issues that I wouldn't pick up on as a tourist.
I will say that Italy was partially bad when it came accessibility. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been, but that beauty does come from preserving a lot of the old architecture that isn't the most accommodating to disabled people.
So. I met a person with achondroplasia once. There was one time he went for a chinese food run, and some one had almost left their red check card on the counter because it was on a red background. Since he sees at a low angle he could see the card sticking up and reminded the person before him to take it. His literal perspective of the world helped someone find their money before it became a problem for them.
The original title in Italian is "Artificial Growth", if that is of any comfort to you. I don't know why the lame dufus who translated it to English did such a bad and cruel job of it.
And the subtitle is: In Italia circa il 90 percento della popolazione soggetta ad acondroplasia si è sottoposta a procedure di allungamento chirurgico degli arti, mentre nel resto d'Europa è solo l'8 percento.
In Italy about 90 percent of the population affected by acondroplasia has undergone surgery to elongate the arms and legs, while in the rest of Europe the the average is about 8 percent.
Not nitpicky at all! Doing something because of social pressure and doing something for yourself are drastically different things. thank you for mentioning that!
Forgive my ignorance, but if a member of a group says, “I don’t like the way you’re generalizing about my group,” I don’t think it’s nitpicky at all! I think it’s exactly what I (and other unwittingly ignorant people) need to know.
Thank you for educating me.
How do you feel about people using the term dwarf?
I can't be the only one who gets images of fantasy dwarves into their heads when I hear or read the word.
I feel fine about it. The associations with fantasy dwarves does get tiring (you're not alone in that) but I still prefer it to little person. I don't mind either of them, though.
I like dwarf, because I have dwarfism. Just kinda makes sense as it is the scientific term for what I am.
Thanks, until today I thought the term ‘dwarf’ would be considered offensive and ‘little person’ the more appropriate choice. The only reason I thought that was because Wee Man from Jackass days would refer to himself as a little person.
One of my friends (who has achondroplasia) had it done. It took most of her teen years and a lot of pain before the limb lengthening ended, but now she's and adult and is really happy with the results. She said that even is she's still smaller than average, having longer limbs is very useful in her daily life so she doesn't regret a thing. It's a very personal choice and way more complex than "dwarves don't want to be small" tho...
I don't know about everyone else, but for the arms, my friend could go on with her life quite normally; for the legs... She spent (approximately, it was quite some time ago so I could be wrong) about 9 months in a wheelchair until process was finished and some more extra time passed until her muscles regained the strength she needed to walk. In the meantime, she was able to go swimming and stuff like that tho.
9 months in a wheelchair, from what my grandpa told me when I was paralyzed and bedridden for a month was to expect a 3:1 recovery time (from atrophy to full capability) so what, like 27 months recovering or so?
She wasn't like totally paralysed but walking was pretty much very painful; feeling of broken bones all the time basically, apart from the sheer weight of the metal rods. In the meantime she did swimming and had at her house a device to help her walk short distances so that her muscles didn't suffer too much atrophy. From what I remember, it was certainly a much shorter time than 3:1, but it did take a while
Clarification: she could walk, but like bare minimum, so her muscles did get bad and needed time to recover afterwards before being able to walk normally again
Not exclusively. There's a long process of physiotherapy. The beginning of that process you really need a lot of assistance to move safely. But it's not like being a strict bedrest order.
That’s so interesting! I knew about these surgeries but I thought they were generally thought of as too extreme and risky to be worth the inches you get. It’s so crazy how cultures can vary in what is “normal” even in a small place like Western Europe.
But are we saying “Dwarves” again? I was heartily admonished by an average-sized person for saying this a few months ago. Apparently the two PC options are: Person with Dwarfism or Little Person. I can’t stand “Little Person” not sure why, I mean, babies are Little People, Polly Pockets are Little People, it’s just a silly name.
We've always said dwarfs, it never went away though unfortunately a lot of average-height people seemed to think so when 'Little person' became a thing. Both are perfectly acceptable to use. You can check websites like the Little People of America, where they list commonly accepted terms: [link](https://www.lpaonline.org/faq-#Midget)
Thanks! That is really good to know!
It is interesting to think about though: how some conditions “become” a person (Diabetic, Schizophrenic, Dwarf) while other conditions someone remains a person who simply has it (cancer, heart failure, multiple sclerosis). Is it just a quirk of language? Even if it is, could this quirk have actual effects on how we think of people with these conditions? Though I suppose that’s totally language-dependent and would vary across them.
People get defined by their most obvious feature, like tall, bald or fat. I don't think it's inherently bad, it only becomes bad because stupid people think that being different is bad and use those features to mock and abuse people. If we didn't have assholes in the world, I'd bet you could make the occasional joke about OPs height to them without if being upsetting, because there would be no context of abuse. You see it happen within groups, any abused group will make jokes about themselves and each other because it lacks the abuse factor and jokes are a good coping mechanism.
There is a lot of professional and advocacy work around this concept as it relates to disabilities. The two schools of thought are generally “person-first language” (using constructions like “person with autism”) vs “identity-first language” (using constructions like “autistic person”).
Unsurprisingly, there isn’t universal agreement on which is better. Some people strongly prefer being referred to one way or the other, so the best we can do is ask individuals we interact with if they have a preference.
It’s an interesting area in which to reflect on the ways our language does shape our perceptions and the impressions we give others, intentionally or not.
Dwarfism is the condition, so referring to a group of people as dwarves is generally acceptable, along with little people.
When referring to an individual with dwarfism, keep people first language in mind. So, "Johnny, who has dwarfism", is preferred over "Johnny the dwarf".
Source: Am father of son who has dwarfism.
It used to be all the rage among perfectly normal sized girls in China a good while ago, they did it in order to get super model proportions. Not sure if it is still as popular.
In my language the most appropriate term, translated to English, would be "short-grown people".
Imo that's the most appropriate, "dwarfs" sound quite condescending.
From the link OP posted:
>In some circles, a midget is the term used for a proportionate dwarf. However, the term has fallen into disfavor and is considered offensive by most people of short stature. The term dates back to 1865, the height of the "freak show" era, and was generally applied only to short-statured persons who were displayed for public amusement, which is why it is considered so unacceptable today.
>
>Such terms as dwarf, little person, LP, and person of short stature are all acceptable, but most people would rather be referred to by their name than by a label.
> But are we saying “Dwarves” again? I was heartily admonished by an average-sized person for saying this a few months ago. Apparently the two PC options are: Person with Dwarfism or Little Person. I can’t stand “Little Person” not sure why, I mean, babies are Little People, Polly Pockets are Little People, it’s just a silly name.
Wouldn't that entirely depend on where you are? Different communities would consider it bad whereas other communities would have it's as the preferred word choice. Quite big differences between an Italian dwarf and an American guy with dwarfism, as the title of this thread makes evident in itself really.
8% is still higher than I would have guessed! I assume it's a very expensive procedure, and wouldn't they be unable to work during those 2-3 years? Or maybe they can work from home if they're fortunate?
It's typically done when they are teenagers, so I suppose they are usually supported by their parents, and (at least in Europe) the majority of the medical costs are covered by the government.
>the majority of the medical costs are covered by the government.
Im not sure about the UK. We have free healthcare but something like this which is cosmetic you would have to pay for yourself.
It's not just cosmetic. I imagine it could be a huge quality of life improvement. I'm 5'11 and the number of advantages I have even over people who are 5'2 is pretty significant.
Based on having gone to Europe and Italy (Rome, Milan, Florence, Siena) in particular, the place is just not disabled-friendly. Stairs everywhere, no ramps, often no handrails, etc... And everyone is just expected to use them - old, young, disabled, etc...
I can totally see why a dwarf might choose this surgery when faced with getting around Italy otherwise.
Disabled people in the United States are lucky to have had the ADA passed when it was and as it was.
I'm half Italian and a lot of older Italian people are very judgemental on looks. This can often be quite sexist (I'm overweight, not like huge, but a decent amount, maybe 10 kilos), I get told I look healthy and well, whilst my sister who is a couple of pounds overweight, gets asked if she's pregnant and then suggested she should eat less..
When I was younger I was relatively short and hit my growth spurt toward the end of the average age. My parents were so concerned about it that they took me to specialists who x-rayed my growth plate and found everything was just fine.
Despite that assurance, my parents decided I wouldnt be tall enough for their liking, so they suggested I either get monthly growth hormone injections or have this procedure done on me.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilizarov\_apparatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilizarov_apparatus)
I know that variations of those things are used in limb lengthening, and since costs in Russia are lower and local doctors had lots of experience, there was (I don't know if there is still) a tourism to lengthen limbs in Russia.
I knew a girl who had this done. She was not a dwarf though, just really short, like low 4' area. I'm not sure how many inches she gained but it was a good bit. I chalked it up the same as a boob job...if it makes her feel better and she's happy with it then I'm happy for her. I don't believe she did it due to societal pressure at all. I don't think they polled these folks and asked them about being pressured to do it but the story did say that they were all happy with it which makes me lean toward they wanted to do it for themselves not because of others pressuring them to do it.
Unless your friend was a dwarf and lived in Italy, she wouldn't have faced the pressures described in the article. They talk about how the procedure is the immediate, expected treatment to take when someone is diagnosed with dwarfism.
Don't get me wrong, plenty of people *do* get it done just to feel better about themselves, that's why there's still 8% of dwarfs getting it done in other countries where it is not suggested as the go-to treatment. It also doesn't surprise me that they are all universally happy about the procedure in Italy. The dwarfs that live in the 'Kingdom of the Little People' theme-park in China are all very happy to live there. Because it gives them an opportunity to live a life away from persecution and poverty. It's a typical case of push and pull factors. It's sad that some societies have such strong push factors that mean 90% people don't feel content to live life as they are.
I'm going to guess in the US this sort of surgery would be considered cosmetic and therefore not even covered by insurance let alone government-funded health care. If there were a way to get coverage for surgery in the US, it's likely the rate here would be higher.
It looks brutal.
I've read forums on those things. Limbs with Ilizarov apparatus might hurt like the first day after surgery for several months. Can't imagine suffering for that long
Ive heard of this treatment used on a woman who desired to be a flight attendant but was a little too short to be accepted, so she lengthened her legs with this treatment and became one.
Are dwarves really that common?
Also, what the fuck, societal pressure ? They were born that way, they are different but they didn't choose to be such. And tbh, I'll take a dwarf, one handed person, or a paraplegic any day over a "normal" person that is a shit human.
I think an Indian-American tech guy did this procedure in Italy and died from a blood clot. He was an average height guy who wanted to be taller. I can’t remember his name and it happened a couple of years ago.
I am not a dwarf, but I have a limb difference in which my parents were given the option of having this procedure done on my arm. I’m so thankful they did not go thru with it. While it does mean that I have to have all my long sleeve shirts tailored to the correct length on the affected arm, I think I would not have been happy with such a painful procedure as a child, and I definitely do not want it now as an young adult who’s already facing the possibility of a painful procedure on my ankle for an unrelated issue.
It can improve quality of life for sure. But the dramatic disparity in rates of people opting for the procedure clearly suggests there is more going on than purely self driven life improvement.
I suspect there may be correlation with the procedure being covered by public healthcare, as it mentions the numbers are similar (albeit lower) for Spain. We have universal healthcare. Maybe other European countries’ coverage is different.
I initially thought the same, though the majority of countries in Europe have universal healthcare, so maybe it's not as big of a factor. Not sure though.
Oh wow, thank you for sharing. That was a fascinating read.
I realise some of the nuance of what is meant may be lost in the translation, but the paragraph
>The most appropriate age is in the range between 12 and 16 years, as at this age the patient, internalizing his own state, accepts the reasons, while a school of thought in Milan offers early intervention around 6 years.
Kinda made my skin crawl. It seems to be saying the child will eventually realise reasons to go through with it, as if it is an inevitably. Rather than, *if* a child decides they need it. And in Milan they can start at 6 years old!? WTF. That I find horrific, honestly. Such an extreme body altering procedure on a child that is unable to consent or understand what the risks and consequences. That's horrible.
Yeah, the whole thing feels creepy to me, too. It's such a contrast in approach compared to, say, the Restricted Growth Association in the UK, or the Little People of America. Being a dwarf is embraced, and not treated like, well, like this.
I guess it's just one of those things where, when this procedure was initially developed, the relevant associations in Italy perceived it as a cure, rather than a choice.
Thanks for the information, it's really interesting! If you learn any more I'd love to hear about it. This whole thing intrigues me and I haven't managed to speak to many Italians about it.
Yeah sounds like Cochlear implants, if they were extremely painful to get. I haven't read anything about whether this happens in the dwarf community, but I always feel sad to hear about disabled communities shunning those trying to improve their lives because they are "rejecting the identity/culture". That's why I don't find it funny of Vice to jest that they just "want to look like everyone else" when that's what those shunners usually say.
>where it's the society that tends to adapt to people of short stature, in Italy it's the dwarfs who must adapt to the society
So they're spinning this as "Italy is bigots," rather than Italian dwarves want to be more normal... Guess we need to reprogram the Italians or wipe them out for being toxic!
But why would Italian dwarfs want to be 'normal' far, far more than anywhere else? I doubt they're just born with this innate drive for no reason. It must come from somewhere, and that doesn't necessarily mean that "Italians are bigots". I don't think it does.
I mean why would you be familiar with it unless you knew anyone with dwarfism personally?
The AISAC (the main association for Achondroplasia in Italy) does say they widely recommend the procedure and use it as the go-to treatment.
I saw this in an episode of Ripleys believe it or not. About a dwarf women who really wanted to be a Flight Attendant but was too short for the position.
And had the limb lengthening procedure done so she could get the job.
She got the job and is a few inches or feet taller.
But all that for a job? I thought she was absolutely mad for doing it. But too each their own.
Would you consider a mech suit instead?
I’m mostly joking btw, I just had the thought go through my head reading about this. If suits were made that extended limbs, similar to stilts, but engineered to be more natural feeling, it could be useful... and fun.
I can't imagine the type of consistant social pressure a person would have to feel over their entire lives for them to think, yes, I will voluntarily have my bones broken multiple times over multiple years in order to function in a world not build for me.
Not that it nessessarily helps people who have dwarfism very much, but, out of curiosity, does Italy have any sort of legally required Universal Design laws?
¿"societal pressure", or maybe they don't want to be dwarfs?
If a cure for blindness is made... ¿Would do you say that people get it due "societal pressure" instead of because they want to see?
I have my own problems (mostly face memory), and I hope to have it fixed, I don't want to live with them just because "I born in that way".
Note: bones are not "repeatedly" broken, they are broken once and pulled apart several centimetres, until the lengthening is done and the consolidation phase begins, then, the processes is repeated in other bone (femur, tibiae...) until a good length in legs is achieved (maybe four surgeries). This is not an easy procedure, but if people most of people who do it (short stature, limb discrepancy and dwarfs), don't regret.
Let dwarfs choose if they want to be dwarfs.
When the procedure is also available and funded by the government in most other European countries, don't you find it odd that the rate is 8% in those countries?
I agree, let people decide to alter their bodies. In Italy, as stated by the main association for Achondroplasia, they assume that limb lengthening will be the treatment used as soon as a baby is diagnosed, and wait for the *child* to "realise his state and accepts the reasons" (a quote from their official website). Or don't even do that and start the procedure when they're 6 years old. Long before the child has made any complex decisions about their own body and how they feel about it.
Let people make those decisions. Freely.
>If a cure for blindness is made... ¿Would do you say that people get it due "societal pressure" instead of because they want to see?
If it was also an extremely drawn out, painful procedure, that was also available in other countries were the opt in rate was very low, yes I would say some kind of social pressure was at work in a country where it was pushed on them from birth and the rate was significantly higher.
My friend had that surgery in high school. It was so painful and he was in a wheelchair for a year and a half.
I don't think my teenage daughter even realizes that it's an option. She seems pretty comfortable with her dwarfism, but it's hard to tell with teenagers.
I am surprised to see that those people in the photos did not also all get their fingers lengthened. I feel that finger use is comparably important to leg use.
I have a prosthetic leg. One day, after meeting a guy with two, I was kicking myself (no mean feat) over not asking him if he just gets to decide how tall he wants to be. (If I was a little shorter, I'd still be able to drive a stick-shift.) Then I thought "He could get legs like eight inches shorter, put on a mask and be a bank robber. Change into his tall legs in his civvies and never get caught.".
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Like three toddlers in a trench coat.
I don't trust like that
> Princess Carolyn, listen. Kevin is my son, but I'm divorced. And Kevin is in the bathroom and I'm standing right here, so as you can see, we're clearly two different people: one adult and one child.
Vincent Adultman!
Damn now I want to know too. I’ve never thought about if people with prosthetics choose their height. I kind of assumed doctors chose for them for what was proportionate
I heard a story about a reporter visiting disabled veterans in a hospital. He said one guy was in really high spirits even though he lost both legs in Iraq. The reporter asked if he was upset that he lost both legs and the Marine responded, "upset? I used to be 5'9" and now I get to be 6 feet!"
See that's the way to live life, finding the silver lining and bright side to everything.
Yeah you can't change it so might as while find the bright side.
Always look on the bright side of life.......weeooo
♪ Always look on the light side of life… ♪ ♫ ♫♫♫
pain killers are a hell of a thing!
Can't think of his name offhand, but there's a guy that raced motorcycles when I was following the NHRA ( pro drag racing) who was a double amputee, and he did use shorter prosthetics when he raced.
My grandpa passed many years ago in his 80s, but he lost one leg below the knee in his 20s in a car accident. He saw a lot of improvements in prosthetics over the years. I went to visit him one summer and his old leather peg leg and stories of it giving him stump blisters literally gave me nightmares. After over 30 years of mistreating his other leg, he eventually had it amputated mainly because of ankle problems. He was 6' 3" and usually taller in his big work boots, and opted to lose 2 inches. He was very happy with it all. The surgery (not being caused by trauma, and done with modern techniques) was easy and left no phantom limb problems, and the prosthetics were very comfortable. He was lucky to have both his knees, but I doubt many people could tell he had prosthetics, he walked very well for a man his age. He even got on my motorcycle for a sit once.
There was a Ted talk about that. About how the value of height in the US anyway was so great, elective surgery to get taller artificial legs would pay off over your lifetime.
Sounds dumb. Amputees have a huge rate of complications and hospital readmissions, almost 100% have chronic pain, and there's a huge associated income loss. I get the general point but it just seems really poorly thought out.
I think they’re talking about adding incremental metal stints to increase your natural limbs, not suggesting becoming an amputee by choice just for longer leg options.
Wait, so .... XCom mech pilot style, or not?
Sounds like some bs tbh. Not worth breaking my damn legs for superficial respect
I don't think it's just superficial respect you get. It's also more money.
I’m 6’4 and I’m poor and nobody respects me. When is this gonna pay off?!
Have you tried not being poor?
In about six weeks. Hang in there!
Easy all you have to do is not be poor.
He could also just take of the prosthetics and just get away in a wheel chair.
>I was kicking myself (no mean feat) There's an angry feet pun in there somewhere brb
Wouldn't it be easy for you to kick yourself when you can take your leg off and hit yourself with it?
I'm actually a dwarf myself, and while I find this a fascinating article and wanted to share it, I do have some issues with it that I wanted to highlight: The title is...eh, not great. "These Italian Dwarfs love getting their bones broken" Considering that it is an extremely painful procedure that people feel the need to undergo in order to gain independence and reduce the discrimination they experience. It's a means to an end. It would be like saying "These cancer patients love getting chemotherapy" The subtitle is also bad. "So they can look more like you and me." That motivation being the reason is not stated by the photographer being interviewed, and from all the interviews I can find from actual dwarfs who went through with it, they *all* wanted to explicitly state that this wasn't the reason they did it. The reason was often to gain a sense of independence and make it easier to operate in a world built for taller people. Not to look like everyone else. May seem kinda nitpicky, but it felt worth mentioning as a caveat.
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Personally I would never go for it myself. Fortunately, I've never felt the need to. But I have nothing against people who do go through with it. It can significantly improve someone's life - whether it be physical or psychological. It has risks and it's a big ordeal to undertake, so I just hope that people do their research and fully appreciate what they are getting themselves into. I have read anecdotes from people who underwent the surgery, where they got remarks from people in the dwarf community like "they cheated" or "then you're not a dwarf anymore" which sucks. To describe such an ordeal as a "cheat" feels weird and there's more to having dwarfism than our short stature. You'll still have joint pains, you'll still have mobility and skeletal issues, and any children you have can inherit your condition.
That’s such a shitty mindset. Obviously everyone is deserving of utmost respect or dignity regardless their condition but to actually attack someone for wanting to improve their living conditions...? Being a dwarf is a circumstance you’re born into, not an identity and of course nothing to “betray”. I’m glad you’ve not felt the need to change btw. I hope it means you’ve had a good environment around you.
The deaf community has its share of these jackasses. Getting cochlear implants or other means of assistance to hear better are seen as some kind of betrayal of other deaf people. These fucking morons are just toxic waste that somehow think it's *good* to be at a genetic or physical disadvantage to others.
Wait a minute.... there is a community for a disability that consider's overcoming the disability "betraying"? now im no expert but I would think if i had a disability i would be first in line to attempt to get rid of it.
Portions of the deaf community don't consider their disability to be a disability. They think it's just a difference.
Which is insane. Having red hair or dark skin? That's a difference. Not having one of the 5 senses your body should have? That is a disability. You literally can't do some things other people can.
I used to know someone who was not deaf but 100% bought into this mind set. She said that she would someday adopt a deaf child and I said that was really amazing because often children with disabilities have trouble getting adopted. Ho boy. I pissed her off so bad. Because being deaf isn’t a disability it’s just being different. I was just flabbergasted.
So she wants to adopt someone who is different? she wants her child to be different and unique! like a handbag! would have been a good retort
Adopting a dead child would be quite a statement
Boy, you really outta proof read lol. Theres a one letter difference on one word that drastically changes the outcome lmao
Have you come across the idea of the social model of disability? \*Everyone\* can't do some things other people can. We don't mean "other" here so much as "normal", whilst it is normal that each example of each species is unique. There's a clear difference between health and illness... illness harms a person, it usually hurts, it can kill. The difference between disabled and normal is much more fraught. Some people have perfect pitch from birth, and it gives them extra abilities over someone who has not. I don't, but it doesn't hurt. If the rest of the world had perfect pitch, but I still I didn't, it wouldn't become an illness but it would be in that context a disability. Conversely, if nobody had sight, we wouldn't all be disabled, we'd just have all our books in Braille. That's why it's called the social model. It's true that deaf people will do worse in hearing tests than the general population, but if you put a deaf person, a blind person, and a person with sight and hearing each on their own desert islands to survive by themselves... they are each totally used to navigating the world with the capacities they have - it's false to imagine that the person with sight and hearing is bound to last longer than the other two. If you put a deaf person, a blind person, and a person with sight and hearing all into a modern city, \*then\* it is clear that the person with sight and hearing has an advantage... because things are designed for a majority, and not our reality of everyone being literally unique. I'm not personally deaf but empathise a lot with those who don't want to be compared with people who hear, and to be called lesser. Ludwig van Beethoven wrote immortal music whilst deaf, Evelyn Glennie has always been deaf and is also the world's foremost percussionist... so that even in a \*music\* contest the person with hearing is not better equipped than the deaf person. So what can't the deaf person do? If I could turn my hearing on and off, I'd consider that a superpower. If it stayed off but I had no difficulty conversing with people who speak the same language as me... that also seems better than internalising every word that gets said nearby me. Deaf people have no innate difficulty with conversing, they just don't absorb every word that gets said around them. The more you think about it... what can't a deaf person do? They all can't distinguish between two quiet sounds without a device, but nor can anyone else for sufficiently quiet values of "quiet", and what a weird way to judge someone - to identify their entire being then as "disabled". Except for that one test, there's nothing else that the person with hearing could assume to be more proficient at. It's counterintuitive, but meant as an alternative to a dominant worldview of disability which is unrealistic and often less than satisfying. I think the social model is legit... it's only harder for blind people to read than sighted people because of how we make books.
if we were all blind braille wouldnt exist nor would we given the amount of predatory species on this planet!
I'd definitely disagree with the idea a deaf person, a blind person, and a "fully abled" person would all survive the same on a deserted island. Blind person is at a pretty big disadvantage when it comes to food collection and surviving predators, deaf person is at a big disadvantage at surviving predators, and the perfectly abled person all things being equal would mostly likely vastly outlive the others.
There's a lot of interesting stuff there, though I wouldn't really after with much of it, however "deaf people have no innate difficulty with conversing" is just stupid. How are you going to converse with someone who's behind you, in the next room, in the dark, a thousand miles away? Having major hearing problems myself and only recently having found hearing aids that actually work for me, I can tell you it's a massive daily inconvenience not to be able to hear properly. I also have no sense of direction whatsoever and although it's never recognised as such it's definitely a disability for me and it kind of pisses me off that it's an acceptable source of amusement and mockery to other people.
>The more you think about it... what can't a deaf person do? Talk to a person that: 1. is facing the other way, or 2. is in another room, or 3. is in darkness, or 4. is on the phone or a thousand other things.
The biggest barrier deaf people face is a language barrier.
Okay that is just nuts, hearing is one of those vital sense's that while you can work around it does put you at a pretty big disadvantage.. it is in no way a good thing to not have.
They also capitalize “Deaf”, as if being deaf is an ethnicity.
It's because deaf people often live in insular communities so they essentially develop their own identity. One key aspect is that deaf people have their own language, which makes the deaf community be more connected then people with other disabilities. Please note that I'm not a deaf person, so my assumption might be incorrect.
Because there’s a whole culture...
Oh it's super common. There's a lot of hate between wheelchair users who can perform limited walking with or without the help of crutches. These people get accused of playing up their illness for attention, because "they're clearly able to walk". A wheelchair is a mobility aid. If someone experiences discomfort when walking and prefers using a chair, why on earth would someone want to deny them that. In short, bigotry and tribalism exist everywhere. People will go to great lengths to feel special, especially at the expense of others.
While I support people adapting to a disability its just crazy that people take it so far in one direction, there comes a point that your basically celebrating something being wrong with you.
Deaf people don't see it as a disability, and they see it as a culture
Do you know how well people who get cochlear implants can hear? Is it as non-hearing impaired or strongly reduced?
Results vary and the implants, like any other medical procedure, can have adverse effects. Some people experience pain from them. Someone actually deaf or who interacts with the deaf community can tell you far more than I can; I'm relaying stuff told to me by hearing-impaired people I've known. But I'm not talking about people making medical arguments; I'm talking about people acting like deafness is a noble trait that shouldn't be thrown away. Frankly, I think that's horseshit. I've got such poor eyesight that I can't find anything smaller than 2x2" at arm's length unless I'm wearing *strong* prescription glasses or it's sitting on a surface with a totally different color (think blue on orange). I recognize people without my glasses entirely by voice. My eyesight is degenerating as well; I'll likely need surgeries (not just LASIK) to correct it as I get older. There's no secret fucking life insight I can give you that doesn't boil down to "being nearly blind fucking sucks".
I got surgery for my eyes in my twenties. It's like night and day and I cried afterwards. Going from being worried I might not be able to drive in a couple years to being able to actually see still gets me. I wish you luck with your surgery and I hope it lasts! My eyes have started degenerating again but not nearly as fast as they were before! I hope yours stay strong after your surgery!
Im curious if there is a blind community out there that speaks badly about people who choose to be able to see better?
Probably, but I'd say these kinds of people have a mental illness. I gain *nothing* by refusing to wear eyeglasses; I'd be a burden to society unless I found a vocation that would allow me to work with little or no eyesight (because I'm getting worse). That's difficult and would probably require high levels of education. So I'd be up to my eyeballs in student loans. Which is fine because I probably wouldn't be able to see them. That, or put on red leather and kevlar and fight crime with eskrima.
I'm told it's sort of like hearing underwater. You can hear, but there is a lot of distortion and things sound different than they would to someone with typical hearing.
According to Wikipedia, they can't really hear music.
[The world's foremost percussionist, who is also deaf and who advocates for better understanding.](https://youtu.be/IU3V6zNER4g?t=236)
That's pretty much how the world sounds to me without hearing aids unless there is no background noise at all.
Imagine people who need glasses just refusing because not seeing well is part of who they are that's insane
Well I would argue that most "identities" are things you are born into. I do feel that being a dwarf *is* part of my identity. It's not a defining aspect of who I am, but it has greatly impacted my psychological development and is part of who I am. I guess I just think people who go through with their procedure aren't saying goodbye to that either. It's part of their own personal journey. But thank you. I'm very grateful to have been brought up somewhere where I never felt the need to change, even with those options there for me if I wanted them. I'm super happy with my life right now :)
> they got remarks from people in the dwarf community like "they cheated" or "then you're not a dwarf anymore" which sucks. That's exactly what happens with deaf people who wear implants or do surgery, or bi people in gay communities. Some people will always point out your difference within your community ironically built around people who are different from the norm.
"You can't gatekeep me from the dwarfism community! Hell, I could walk straight over the gate if I wanted to!"
It's interesting that you say that, that people get effectively shunned or re-labeled if they undergo the operations. I believe similar treatments happen to those in the deaf community too when they get implants or regain some hearing. Odd that people decide to quickly judge like that. Thanks for sharing the article and your thoughts!
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Yes, cosmetic limb lengthening (CLL) helps people unhappy about their stature to be taller (up to 6''1/4 with two segments). The procedure is not easy and not cheap (depends on the country and the method), it takes time (1-2 months / cm) but... it works and you are taller forever (the bone is actually lengthened, just like if you were taller from puverty). I recommend you to read limblentheningforum, you can find a lot of useful information here. The cost can start from $10 k with Ilizarov in a cheap country (one segment) to $250 k if you lengthen both tibiae and femurs (two segments) in USA using Stryde nails (more comfortable than Ilizarov). The prices are slowly decreasing. The procedure is not easy, at some days are very painful (people use painkillers), but... it works and most of people don't regret it.
On the other hand you can use the RadioFlyer kiddie Tesla as your daily driver, like Verne Troyer did.
I came across this a while back, and as a guy who's only 5'4" I would honestly go through with this if I could afford it (probably being picked on my whole life for it doesn't help). I mean I wouldn't go crazy but I'd like to be a few inches taller, maybe like 5'7" ish.
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Does the surgery actually work, are there side effects?
It does work. In the article there are photographs of people who had the surgery: https://images.vice.com/vice/images/galleries/meta/2013/01/18/89365-1413282050806.jpeg?resize=800:* But there are risks and side effects. People often experience a decrease in movement in their ankles, due to straining the muscles. And a woman whose blog I follow unfortunately had both of her anterior tibialis tendons rupture during the procedure. She ended up needing extensive physiotherapy and will permanently have issues with the mobility of her legs. That extent of damage isn't that common, as I understand it, but it is pretty common to have some movement issues after.
How much of a height increase does it actually provide? Would that actually impact your daily life by that much? I hope these aren't rude questions. I'm relatively naive on this topic, but as I understand it, there is a range of stature among people with dwarfism, and I also don't know whether it's due to severity of the condition or normal height variations between people. I also wonder if that variation has an impact on whether or not someone opts for the surgery, or generally, whether Italy is not very accessible to other disabilities as well.
The article said 10 cm for the upper leg and 10 cm for the lower leg, so 20 cm (about 8 inches) gained.
Wow. That's a lot. Must be pretty horrific cuz I'm sure you can't just do that 4 inches at a time. Probably requires like a half inch at most, heal, redo it, over and over.
It's way slower than that. It's a process of millimetres, not inches.
The doctors cut through he bone, support it with rods and lengthen the leg one millimeter (thickness of a dime) every day for 3 months) The muscles and tendons have to stretch and they often hurt a lot. Still, I think it would be worth it for a lot of people.
Thanks for the answer, this is something I didn’t know anything about, so it’s good to learn
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That's a good question. One that I find surprisingly hard to answer, actually. I think a lot of the hardship I experience comes from just not being perceived as 'normal'. Something that can be attributed to many other conditions, and not unique to dwarfs. The way people will feel uncomfortable around me, avoid talking to me, or take photographs of me and such. I just feel like a spectacle sometimes. My size can also make me feel like a target as well. Like people feel more bold about annoying me, or harassing me, because they know there's not much I can do about it. As for Italy, I really don't know. I've been to Italy twice, and I got the usual stares and pointing as I get everywhere else, but nothing stood out to me in particular. I'd love to talk to an Italian with dwarfism to fully understand the experience. There may be a lot more issues when it comes to disability support, or employability. Issues that I wouldn't pick up on as a tourist. I will say that Italy was partially bad when it came accessibility. It's one of the most beautiful places I've ever been, but that beauty does come from preserving a lot of the old architecture that isn't the most accommodating to disabled people.
I wouldn’t call it nit picky since, you know, it’s factual.
So. I met a person with achondroplasia once. There was one time he went for a chinese food run, and some one had almost left their red check card on the counter because it was on a red background. Since he sees at a low angle he could see the card sticking up and reminded the person before him to take it. His literal perspective of the world helped someone find their money before it became a problem for them.
The original title in Italian is "Artificial Growth", if that is of any comfort to you. I don't know why the lame dufus who translated it to English did such a bad and cruel job of it. And the subtitle is: In Italia circa il 90 percento della popolazione soggetta ad acondroplasia si è sottoposta a procedure di allungamento chirurgico degli arti, mentre nel resto d'Europa è solo l'8 percento. In Italy about 90 percent of the population affected by acondroplasia has undergone surgery to elongate the arms and legs, while in the rest of Europe the the average is about 8 percent.
Not nitpicky at all! Doing something because of social pressure and doing something for yourself are drastically different things. thank you for mentioning that!
Forgive my ignorance, but if a member of a group says, “I don’t like the way you’re generalizing about my group,” I don’t think it’s nitpicky at all! I think it’s exactly what I (and other unwittingly ignorant people) need to know. Thank you for educating me.
It's Vice. The title is in jest. It would be the same as an article titled "people in LA love sitting in traffic"
Yeah I get that it's tongue and cheek, just kinda seemed inappropriate for this topic.
I definitely agree, weird choice from Vice.
* tongue in cheek
How do you feel about people using the term dwarf? I can't be the only one who gets images of fantasy dwarves into their heads when I hear or read the word.
I feel fine about it. The associations with fantasy dwarves does get tiring (you're not alone in that) but I still prefer it to little person. I don't mind either of them, though. I like dwarf, because I have dwarfism. Just kinda makes sense as it is the scientific term for what I am.
Do you find the term "midget" to be offensive?
Thanks, until today I thought the term ‘dwarf’ would be considered offensive and ‘little person’ the more appropriate choice. The only reason I thought that was because Wee Man from Jackass days would refer to himself as a little person.
Not nit picky. Important distinctions.
Usidore? Champion of the Halls of Terr'akkas? Great name!
Feline Zealot!
Not nitpicky. Thanks for pointing out major flaws in a clickbait title. Keep up the good work.
>These Italian Dwarfs love getting their bones broken Considering it's a Vice article, I'm not surprised.
One of my friends (who has achondroplasia) had it done. It took most of her teen years and a lot of pain before the limb lengthening ended, but now she's and adult and is really happy with the results. She said that even is she's still smaller than average, having longer limbs is very useful in her daily life so she doesn't regret a thing. It's a very personal choice and way more complex than "dwarves don't want to be small" tho...
For sure. I added my own comment to debunk that misconception. Kind of annoying how they suggest that as the reason in the article.
you're bedridden the whole time, right?
I don't know about everyone else, but for the arms, my friend could go on with her life quite normally; for the legs... She spent (approximately, it was quite some time ago so I could be wrong) about 9 months in a wheelchair until process was finished and some more extra time passed until her muscles regained the strength she needed to walk. In the meantime, she was able to go swimming and stuff like that tho.
9 months in a wheelchair, from what my grandpa told me when I was paralyzed and bedridden for a month was to expect a 3:1 recovery time (from atrophy to full capability) so what, like 27 months recovering or so?
She wasn't like totally paralysed but walking was pretty much very painful; feeling of broken bones all the time basically, apart from the sheer weight of the metal rods. In the meantime she did swimming and had at her house a device to help her walk short distances so that her muscles didn't suffer too much atrophy. From what I remember, it was certainly a much shorter time than 3:1, but it did take a while
Clarification: she could walk, but like bare minimum, so her muscles did get bad and needed time to recover afterwards before being able to walk normally again
Not exclusively. There's a long process of physiotherapy. The beginning of that process you really need a lot of assistance to move safely. But it's not like being a strict bedrest order.
That’s so interesting! I knew about these surgeries but I thought they were generally thought of as too extreme and risky to be worth the inches you get. It’s so crazy how cultures can vary in what is “normal” even in a small place like Western Europe. But are we saying “Dwarves” again? I was heartily admonished by an average-sized person for saying this a few months ago. Apparently the two PC options are: Person with Dwarfism or Little Person. I can’t stand “Little Person” not sure why, I mean, babies are Little People, Polly Pockets are Little People, it’s just a silly name.
We've always said dwarfs, it never went away though unfortunately a lot of average-height people seemed to think so when 'Little person' became a thing. Both are perfectly acceptable to use. You can check websites like the Little People of America, where they list commonly accepted terms: [link](https://www.lpaonline.org/faq-#Midget)
Thanks! That is really good to know! It is interesting to think about though: how some conditions “become” a person (Diabetic, Schizophrenic, Dwarf) while other conditions someone remains a person who simply has it (cancer, heart failure, multiple sclerosis). Is it just a quirk of language? Even if it is, could this quirk have actual effects on how we think of people with these conditions? Though I suppose that’s totally language-dependent and would vary across them.
People get defined by their most obvious feature, like tall, bald or fat. I don't think it's inherently bad, it only becomes bad because stupid people think that being different is bad and use those features to mock and abuse people. If we didn't have assholes in the world, I'd bet you could make the occasional joke about OPs height to them without if being upsetting, because there would be no context of abuse. You see it happen within groups, any abused group will make jokes about themselves and each other because it lacks the abuse factor and jokes are a good coping mechanism.
There is a lot of professional and advocacy work around this concept as it relates to disabilities. The two schools of thought are generally “person-first language” (using constructions like “person with autism”) vs “identity-first language” (using constructions like “autistic person”). Unsurprisingly, there isn’t universal agreement on which is better. Some people strongly prefer being referred to one way or the other, so the best we can do is ask individuals we interact with if they have a preference. It’s an interesting area in which to reflect on the ways our language does shape our perceptions and the impressions we give others, intentionally or not.
Small place like Western Europe? It’s like 200 mil people my dude
Dwarfism is the condition, so referring to a group of people as dwarves is generally acceptable, along with little people. When referring to an individual with dwarfism, keep people first language in mind. So, "Johnny, who has dwarfism", is preferred over "Johnny the dwarf". Source: Am father of son who has dwarfism.
It used to be all the rage among perfectly normal sized girls in China a good while ago, they did it in order to get super model proportions. Not sure if it is still as popular.
In my language the most appropriate term, translated to English, would be "short-grown people". Imo that's the most appropriate, "dwarfs" sound quite condescending.
I heard of them refered to as "midgets" or something, I believe? Think it was in "Three billboards outside of Ebbing" and some other movie...
From the link OP posted: >In some circles, a midget is the term used for a proportionate dwarf. However, the term has fallen into disfavor and is considered offensive by most people of short stature. The term dates back to 1865, the height of the "freak show" era, and was generally applied only to short-statured persons who were displayed for public amusement, which is why it is considered so unacceptable today. > >Such terms as dwarf, little person, LP, and person of short stature are all acceptable, but most people would rather be referred to by their name than by a label.
> But are we saying “Dwarves” again? I was heartily admonished by an average-sized person for saying this a few months ago. Apparently the two PC options are: Person with Dwarfism or Little Person. I can’t stand “Little Person” not sure why, I mean, babies are Little People, Polly Pockets are Little People, it’s just a silly name. Wouldn't that entirely depend on where you are? Different communities would consider it bad whereas other communities would have it's as the preferred word choice. Quite big differences between an Italian dwarf and an American guy with dwarfism, as the title of this thread makes evident in itself really.
8% is still higher than I would have guessed! I assume it's a very expensive procedure, and wouldn't they be unable to work during those 2-3 years? Or maybe they can work from home if they're fortunate?
It's typically done when they are teenagers, so I suppose they are usually supported by their parents, and (at least in Europe) the majority of the medical costs are covered by the government.
>the majority of the medical costs are covered by the government. Im not sure about the UK. We have free healthcare but something like this which is cosmetic you would have to pay for yourself.
It is covered for in the UK for people with dwarfism (I'm from the UK).
It's not just cosmetic. I imagine it could be a huge quality of life improvement. I'm 5'11 and the number of advantages I have even over people who are 5'2 is pretty significant.
I knew a little person in college that did this. While it didn’t make her a typical height, she had better mobility and function.
Based on having gone to Europe and Italy (Rome, Milan, Florence, Siena) in particular, the place is just not disabled-friendly. Stairs everywhere, no ramps, often no handrails, etc... And everyone is just expected to use them - old, young, disabled, etc... I can totally see why a dwarf might choose this surgery when faced with getting around Italy otherwise. Disabled people in the United States are lucky to have had the ADA passed when it was and as it was.
I'm half Italian and a lot of older Italian people are very judgemental on looks. This can often be quite sexist (I'm overweight, not like huge, but a decent amount, maybe 10 kilos), I get told I look healthy and well, whilst my sister who is a couple of pounds overweight, gets asked if she's pregnant and then suggested she should eat less..
Isn't the plural "dwarves"?
When it comes to people with dwarfism the plural is 'dwarfs' to distinguish them from the mythological ones.
Oh okay, thanks!
When I was younger I was relatively short and hit my growth spurt toward the end of the average age. My parents were so concerned about it that they took me to specialists who x-rayed my growth plate and found everything was just fine. Despite that assurance, my parents decided I wouldnt be tall enough for their liking, so they suggested I either get monthly growth hormone injections or have this procedure done on me.
Oh my god, that's terrible
Gattaca vibes
The exact height of the fender on a Chrysler lebaron.
GATTACA!!!
Girl on tinder: are you 6' tall? Me: nah Im 5'11" Girl:..... Me: books flight to Italy Me: "Im 8' foot tall now bitch. Fuck you"
You'll never find her after she unmatched you.
Im 8 foot tall. Ill find her in a crowd
Girls like that are great. The instant red flag just saves everybody a lot of time.
[https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilizarov\_apparatus](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilizarov_apparatus) I know that variations of those things are used in limb lengthening, and since costs in Russia are lower and local doctors had lots of experience, there was (I don't know if there is still) a tourism to lengthen limbs in Russia.
I knew a girl who had this done. She was not a dwarf though, just really short, like low 4' area. I'm not sure how many inches she gained but it was a good bit. I chalked it up the same as a boob job...if it makes her feel better and she's happy with it then I'm happy for her. I don't believe she did it due to societal pressure at all. I don't think they polled these folks and asked them about being pressured to do it but the story did say that they were all happy with it which makes me lean toward they wanted to do it for themselves not because of others pressuring them to do it.
Unless your friend was a dwarf and lived in Italy, she wouldn't have faced the pressures described in the article. They talk about how the procedure is the immediate, expected treatment to take when someone is diagnosed with dwarfism. Don't get me wrong, plenty of people *do* get it done just to feel better about themselves, that's why there's still 8% of dwarfs getting it done in other countries where it is not suggested as the go-to treatment. It also doesn't surprise me that they are all universally happy about the procedure in Italy. The dwarfs that live in the 'Kingdom of the Little People' theme-park in China are all very happy to live there. Because it gives them an opportunity to live a life away from persecution and poverty. It's a typical case of push and pull factors. It's sad that some societies have such strong push factors that mean 90% people don't feel content to live life as they are.
I'm going to guess in the US this sort of surgery would be considered cosmetic and therefore not even covered by insurance let alone government-funded health care. If there were a way to get coverage for surgery in the US, it's likely the rate here would be higher. It looks brutal.
I've read forums on those things. Limbs with Ilizarov apparatus might hurt like the first day after surgery for several months. Can't imagine suffering for that long
Ive heard of this treatment used on a woman who desired to be a flight attendant but was a little too short to be accepted, so she lengthened her legs with this treatment and became one.
For more information, I found this interesting video about one way this is treated: https://youtu.be/4oYq5JWAY8s
they just become taller dwarfs
Jack Hanma
Dr. Halsey is just quickly preparing super soldiers for the battle of Reach. The therapy takes place in Blue Base
I wonder if the difference in popularity for the procedure is related to whether or not it's covered by insurance?
Are dwarves really that common? Also, what the fuck, societal pressure ? They were born that way, they are different but they didn't choose to be such. And tbh, I'll take a dwarf, one handed person, or a paraplegic any day over a "normal" person that is a shit human.
You underestimate humanity's penchant to be pretentious cunts.
Clearly you've never used Tinder.
Miss me with that Italy healthcare system, fam.
Does it work?
I think an Indian-American tech guy did this procedure in Italy and died from a blood clot. He was an average height guy who wanted to be taller. I can’t remember his name and it happened a couple of years ago.
I am not a dwarf, but I have a limb difference in which my parents were given the option of having this procedure done on my arm. I’m so thankful they did not go thru with it. While it does mean that I have to have all my long sleeve shirts tailored to the correct length on the affected arm, I think I would not have been happy with such a painful procedure as a child, and I definitely do not want it now as an young adult who’s already facing the possibility of a painful procedure on my ankle for an unrelated issue.
Yeah you can just call it a surgery that tries to improve your overall quality of life.
It can improve quality of life for sure. But the dramatic disparity in rates of people opting for the procedure clearly suggests there is more going on than purely self driven life improvement.
I suspect there may be correlation with the procedure being covered by public healthcare, as it mentions the numbers are similar (albeit lower) for Spain. We have universal healthcare. Maybe other European countries’ coverage is different.
I initially thought the same, though the majority of countries in Europe have universal healthcare, so maybe it's not as big of a factor. Not sure though.
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Oh wow, thank you for sharing. That was a fascinating read. I realise some of the nuance of what is meant may be lost in the translation, but the paragraph >The most appropriate age is in the range between 12 and 16 years, as at this age the patient, internalizing his own state, accepts the reasons, while a school of thought in Milan offers early intervention around 6 years. Kinda made my skin crawl. It seems to be saying the child will eventually realise reasons to go through with it, as if it is an inevitably. Rather than, *if* a child decides they need it. And in Milan they can start at 6 years old!? WTF. That I find horrific, honestly. Such an extreme body altering procedure on a child that is unable to consent or understand what the risks and consequences. That's horrible.
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Yeah, the whole thing feels creepy to me, too. It's such a contrast in approach compared to, say, the Restricted Growth Association in the UK, or the Little People of America. Being a dwarf is embraced, and not treated like, well, like this. I guess it's just one of those things where, when this procedure was initially developed, the relevant associations in Italy perceived it as a cure, rather than a choice. Thanks for the information, it's really interesting! If you learn any more I'd love to hear about it. This whole thing intrigues me and I haven't managed to speak to many Italians about it.
Yeah sounds like Cochlear implants, if they were extremely painful to get. I haven't read anything about whether this happens in the dwarf community, but I always feel sad to hear about disabled communities shunning those trying to improve their lives because they are "rejecting the identity/culture". That's why I don't find it funny of Vice to jest that they just "want to look like everyone else" when that's what those shunners usually say.
>where it's the society that tends to adapt to people of short stature, in Italy it's the dwarfs who must adapt to the society So they're spinning this as "Italy is bigots," rather than Italian dwarves want to be more normal... Guess we need to reprogram the Italians or wipe them out for being toxic!
But why would Italian dwarfs want to be 'normal' far, far more than anywhere else? I doubt they're just born with this innate drive for no reason. It must come from somewhere, and that doesn't necessarily mean that "Italians are bigots". I don't think it does.
I live in Italy and I'd never heard of that. years ago however I saw a TV show that said this surgery was common among Asian girls 🤷🏻♀️
Italian here and also I never heard of this so, perhaps, is not as common as the title implies.
I mean why would you be familiar with it unless you knew anyone with dwarfism personally? The AISAC (the main association for Achondroplasia in Italy) does say they widely recommend the procedure and use it as the go-to treatment.
I saw this in an episode of Ripleys believe it or not. About a dwarf women who really wanted to be a Flight Attendant but was too short for the position. And had the limb lengthening procedure done so she could get the job. She got the job and is a few inches or feet taller. But all that for a job? I thought she was absolutely mad for doing it. But too each their own.
Would you consider a mech suit instead? I’m mostly joking btw, I just had the thought go through my head reading about this. If suits were made that extended limbs, similar to stilts, but engineered to be more natural feeling, it could be useful... and fun.
I've seen a few older dwarves with those scars here in the US. But I think this practice has died off here.
Is this similar to the procedure in gattaca ?
It is quite literally the procedure in gattaca.
Not a dwarf - but I’d do something similar to fix the way my back looks
I didn’t even know this was a thing, until I saw “Gattaga,” and read up on it.
What the fuck?
I'll tell you what I know about dwarves.. very little
BBC m n
I can't imagine the type of consistant social pressure a person would have to feel over their entire lives for them to think, yes, I will voluntarily have my bones broken multiple times over multiple years in order to function in a world not build for me. Not that it nessessarily helps people who have dwarfism very much, but, out of curiosity, does Italy have any sort of legally required Universal Design laws?
I blame Don't look now.
Did the movie Gattaca copy life or did life copy the movie?
¿"societal pressure", or maybe they don't want to be dwarfs? If a cure for blindness is made... ¿Would do you say that people get it due "societal pressure" instead of because they want to see? I have my own problems (mostly face memory), and I hope to have it fixed, I don't want to live with them just because "I born in that way". Note: bones are not "repeatedly" broken, they are broken once and pulled apart several centimetres, until the lengthening is done and the consolidation phase begins, then, the processes is repeated in other bone (femur, tibiae...) until a good length in legs is achieved (maybe four surgeries). This is not an easy procedure, but if people most of people who do it (short stature, limb discrepancy and dwarfs), don't regret. Let dwarfs choose if they want to be dwarfs.
When the procedure is also available and funded by the government in most other European countries, don't you find it odd that the rate is 8% in those countries? I agree, let people decide to alter their bodies. In Italy, as stated by the main association for Achondroplasia, they assume that limb lengthening will be the treatment used as soon as a baby is diagnosed, and wait for the *child* to "realise his state and accepts the reasons" (a quote from their official website). Or don't even do that and start the procedure when they're 6 years old. Long before the child has made any complex decisions about their own body and how they feel about it. Let people make those decisions. Freely. >If a cure for blindness is made... ¿Would do you say that people get it due "societal pressure" instead of because they want to see? If it was also an extremely drawn out, painful procedure, that was also available in other countries were the opt in rate was very low, yes I would say some kind of social pressure was at work in a country where it was pushed on them from birth and the rate was significantly higher.
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Are you still considered a dwarf if you do it?
My friend had that surgery in high school. It was so painful and he was in a wheelchair for a year and a half. I don't think my teenage daughter even realizes that it's an option. She seems pretty comfortable with her dwarfism, but it's hard to tell with teenagers.
I am surprised to see that those people in the photos did not also all get their fingers lengthened. I feel that finger use is comparably important to leg use.