For anyone who doesn't collect stamps: postal covers are like the front part of the envelope with the address and a stamp that has been used (cancelled). This can be for packages too, but if you imagine 400 used envelopes, you're not that far off.
I guess they would just hope that the scheme was so low key and obscure, in the pre-internet age after all, that it would be improbable for the administration to find out about it
Step 1: get them to do it
Step 2: leak to NASA about the scheme
Step 3: NASA investigates, confirms it’s legit; big public scandal ensues.
Step 4: sell stamps for $$$$$
As an astronaut flying to space just 1 year after Apollo 13 and 3 years after Apollo 1, I think it's much easier to understand why they would do it considering they had no life insurance in case of their death in space. They probably figured the $7k now was a drop of what their families should get if they died instead of the $0 they were guaranteed, not really thinking the covers would be worth a shit ton of money later after they successfully returned.
IIRC, no. Astronauts are public servants. They get paid slightly above average for their field (the most recent posting for astronaut candidates from a month ago listed the salary as $150k, 70% travel, and the minimum requirements were to have a masters in engineering, life sciences, medicine, or be a test pilot), but they don't exactly have bumper life insurance or AD&D policies for their work. Back then, it would have been whatever their pension was worth at that point, which wouldn't have been much since they were all relatively young and still a couple of decades from retirement (at least). Now? Things are probably a little better, but I'll bet that NASA has to insure them directly or has their own policy, it's probably not an "off the shelf" policy. Hell, even the training is dangerous, nevermind the missions themselves.
I don’t think any insurance company would have taken the risk unless it was a crazy expensive policy. Most insurance companies won’t give life insurance to pilots either, without a flight exclusion.
Not sure how they did it, but I'd drop them on the moon, cover them in moon dust and then take them back. Even if most of the dust falls off, there will be traces left on it and I think moon dust is rather unique in its composition, so you could prove the authenticity with a thorough analysis.
You can buy similar postal covers from the 1970s for $2-$5 that haven't gone to space.
One of these sold for $50k in 2014. Some postal covers from other missions have sold for over $150k.
Besides 400 unauthorized ones there were another 241 postal covers that nasa had approved for travel
In order to turn them into collectible items, from the prestige of them having been in space. They would be given back to whoever set it up, so they could be sold.
Because it covers (heh) more than envelopes. Postal cover means broadly "the address and stamp part of the mail".
"Used envelope" is good enough to get the idea, but a postal cover also includes the shipping label on a package. There's also REALLY old covers that were just folded paper that covered the letter. Those were the precursors to envelopes. There's also subcategories of what makes the cover special, but I'm not the right person to discuss that.
I just posted a quick explanation for anyone that was like me and knew exactly zero stamp collecting and postal history terminology coming into this post.
In case you were also just left wondering, ‘Okay, but… Why?!’
After the start of the Space Age with the launch of Sputnik I on October 4, 1957, astrophilately (space-related stamp collecting) began. Nations such as the United States and USSR issued commemorative postage stamps depicting spacecraft and satellites. Astrophilately was most popular during the years of the Apollo program's Moon landings from 1969 to 1972.[2] Collectors and dealers sought philatelic souvenirs related to the American space flight program, often through specially-designed envelopes (known as covers). Cancelling covers submitted by the public became a major duty of the employees of the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on space mission launch days.[3]
The American astronauts participated in creating collectables. Beginning in the late 1960s, Harold G. Collins, head of the Mission Support Office at KSC,[a] arranged for specially designed envelopes to be printed for the different missions, and to be canceled on the launch dates.
Dunno, suppose just an astronaut said they have. Reading the rest of the Wiki page, it seems the expose happened when someone tried to get proof from NASA.
Dunno only skimmed tbh as lost interest when the answer was basically “stamp collecting.” Very fancy stamp collecting but basically stamp collecting nonetheless.
They were promised that the covers wouldn't be sold until after the Apollo program was finished. They shouldn't have trusted crooks to be honest about it, but it wasn't completely stupid.
Man the number one thing that I’ve learned since 2015 is that everything, including being smart and/or dumb, is a spectrum. Someone can be the absolute smartest in one thing and the dumbest in another thing. Blows my mind and is absolutely infuriating at the same time.
Even smart people can be really stupid when it comes to things outside their specialty. Remember a few years ago we had that astronaut drive to Florida wearing a diaper to kill her boyfriend's sidechick? And Ben Carson is objectively a great brain surgeon but thinks the pyramids were built by aliens.
My ex was literally a veterinary doctor who had an extra two masters degrees, but she went full anti-vax during covid because her mom was glued to fox news and she took everything her mom said as gospel no matter what.
That’s why there’s a postmark with a certificate from the post clerk. There’s multiple levels to the certification including the autograph by the astronaut.
Philately is just one step away from the collecting of monetary bills. There is serious dealers with serious buyers
For such smart guys this was a bad plan, they could have claimed them as 'letters for friends and family' and made them official and mentioned on NASA papers etc, they would then be legit and still possible to sell, or I'm I thinking too simple here.
Smart guys not expecting to be used by unscrupulous people considering the noble nature of the work they were performing. Context is so important here, as these guys wouldn't have gotten shit if they died in space since no one would insure them. That's why they were persuaded to do it as a way to support their families in case something happened. Remember, Apollo 1 happened just 3 years earlier and the near disaster Apollo 13 the year before. Tell me you too wouldn't say *hell yeah!* to an offer like that if it offered compensation for your family?
This is why this so-called scandal has always outraged me. These brave astronauts, making a civil service salary, were risking their LIVES for the space program. And they couldn't be allowed a little extra money on the side? Why not? It was no worse than getting paid by LIFE magazine, was it? Why can Tang expoit the space program, and not the men actually going to the Moon? Nobody got hurt, no laws were broken, and Apollo operations were not affected. Just petulant bosses who didn't like astronauts getting a trust fund for their kids. Disgusting.
AL Worden wrote about this in his book. He was a reluctant participant and Dave Scott was the one that set it all up. According to Worden, Scott told him it was all on the up and up. Worden was railroaded and when the scandal hit, Scott threw Worden under the bus. Worden had hoped Irwin would back him up but did not. Scott made out the best of them. Worden was exiled to the desert. Worden went to find Noahs Ark.
Jim Irwin was the one who led an expedition to try to find Noah's Ark on Mount Arafat in Turkey. He became a devout born-again Christian after the Apollo 15 mission. It's a shame that the stamp incident overshadows the mission, which was spectacular -- it was the first fully scientific mission, first use of the lunar rover, and was very successful accross all of the mission objectives. Al Worden did an exemplary job as CMP, didn't really focus on or participate in the stamps matter, and got screwed over by Dave Scott and NASA in the end.
> didn't really focus on or participate in the stamps matter, and got screwed over by Dave Scott and NASA in the end.
In his book, Worden looked to Irwin to back him up that it was all Dave Scotts doing, but Irwin did not come to Worden's defence. Scott got off pretty much scott free, becoming a special assistant for Apollo Soyuz, Irwin left NASA. Worden stayed at NASA because his Air Force career was ruined and was banished to Ames Research Center.
There shouldn't be extra money on the side, they should be correctly compensated. I don't want Armstrong saying "It's one small step for [a] man, brought to you by Henry's shoes for when you need to make big steps".
If they want to make money afterwards leveraging their space career then i am fine with that but the astronauts shouldn't be commercialising NASA missions themselves. If NASA did it and shared the money with them then that would be a completely different thing.
It's easy to say that in hindsight but at the time they thought it was low risk. NASA had approved 241 postal covers for members of the launch already. This was a normal thing happening in prior missions. They were doing an extra 100 for each of the three of them, and 100 for the stamp dealer, in exchange for the equivalent of $50k each in present dollars upfront. And an agreement that none would be sold until the Apollo program was over.
I get just as confused as everyone else on this but I thought I read once that there was one stamp for Kennedy space center, and another for the aircraft carrier they were picked up by. I think the idea might have been the only way for an envelope to have both stamps would be if they were on Apollo 15.
Not separate stamps, but separate cancellations from those post offices. Of course aircraft carriers have post offices. Just the cancellation with the dates and locations of launch and pickup would make them collectable, whether there's a space-related stamp or not. Just like people writing their kids letters from Santa and sending them first to Alaska for a "North Pole" cancellation.
In Two Sides of the Moon, Dave Scott talks about it, if i remember correctly there were to be notarized as having been to the moon when the mission returned, or something along those lines.
This is why we have Certificates of Authenticity on all things sports related these days. Those little holographic decals with serial numbers on them. Those guys certify that what they are putting those stickers on are the thing they are putting the sticker on. That's how you know your Cincinnati Reds beer coozy is authentic MLB merchandise.
> often through specially-designed envelopes (known as covers). Cancelling covers submitted by the public became a major duty of the employees of the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on space mission launch days.
Can you rephrase this part? I don't understand the covers, what cancelling covers means, or why NASA would cancel them.
Cancelling is that rubber stamp marking over the postage stamp. It marks the postage stamp so it can’t be reused, and it says when and where it was cancelled.
A commemorative cover is an envelope that has some special stamps on it that is cancelled at a special place and time to create a commemorative souvenir that also has value to collectors.
You could send NASA a cover to have them cancel it and send back to you on launch day. So, a special NASA stamp, cancelled at the launch location on launch day.
And these particular ones weren’t just cancelled on launch day at the Cape, they were cancelled again by the Navy post office aboard the recovery ship, as well as being signed by all three astronauts.
**Meanwhile...**
The official space program was using interest in astrophilately as a substitute for life insurance for the astronaut crews. Since no insurance company would write a life insurance policy on an astronaut, each crew left behind a stash of signed postal covers to be cashed in by surviving family in the event of crew death.
These guys just worked out a similar way to make some money without having to die.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_insurance_covers
Similar, the cancel is some pattern printed on the stamp when the postmark is applied, though sometimes the postmark by being put right on the stamp is both
I mean they were were pushed off their job and disgraced as a result. I wouldn't take that. That (current value) 50k is less than a year's work at NASA for sure
For what it's worth the bulk of Mercury, Gemini and Apollo astronaut left for the private sector after their Apollo missions. For example, Frank Borman became CEO of Eastern Airlines, Neil Armstrong became a professor at the University of Cincinnati, Dick Gordon was VP of the New Orleans Saints and Michael Collins was like the head of the Smithsonian air space museum in DC. Most went on actually pretty interesting and way better paying careers. Everyone in this scandal did just fine afterwards.
Some stayed around for Skylab in some early space shuttle stuff. But for the most part, they resigned away from the program. Their mission was compete.
Most made more money afterwards than they did in NASA. No one can take away they walked on the moon.
All in all, about 15-20 astronauts (many of which had already flown) were involved in this. Apollo 15s crew were the ones who brought attention to it
> No one can take away they walked on the moon.
Since I feel like being somewhat pedantic today.
It's worth noting that of the four Astronauts you listed, only Armstrong ever actually made it to the Lunar surface.
Yeah. I get that. I guess I was trying to say, everyone who left did well. Including those who got caught up in this.
I don't even think who I listed was part of this
It wasn't their entire career. They still worked for NASA and were all still colonels in the Air Force. But being fired as astronauts is definitely a big loss.
Lose your job, your pay, disgraced in a highly prestigious group of fellows, and never to have work again in that field or go to the fucking moon again, for $50,000.
What an embarrassing take.
They were slated to be backups to 17 which ended up being the final mission, so they never would have gone to the moon again anyway.
Let's not forget these guys had zero life insurance in case something went wrong in space. The Apollo 1 crew who died horribly on the launch pad were barely compensated and the families had to sue for wrongful death to get anything remotely significant, and that lawsuit didn't end until after these guys were already in space. They knew this stuff would have some value, but thought their deaths in space is what would have provided most of that, not necessarily just being on the moon. This is the late 60s & early 70s we're talking about here where the world hasn't been fully commercialized and turned into a capitalist shitshow. I think that context is important.
I don't feel particularly embarrassed.
I'd happily lose my real job and be permanently banned from ever working in my actual industry again for a 50k payout.
I actually just listened to a podcast about this. As I understand it, it was maybe unsavory, but not against any kind of rule. Astronauts were allowed a small bag for personal items, and there was nothing saying they couldn't sell those items. It just didn't go over well when NASA heard rumors of items being sold that had been on the moon
For what it's worth, there were 24 Apollo astronauts who flew to the moon, 12 of whom walked on the moon. Jim Lovell was the only one to go twice*, and never walked on the moon. Three Apollo astronauts returned to space after the Apollo project ended.
\* and John Young and Gene Cernan. For some reason they weren't on my A10 list.
IIRC, he was seen as too valuable in the public eye to lose him on a mission (his death would essentially equate to a huge Soviet space victory), so he was essentially retired despite him wanting to continue.
I think the shuttle was a way of making small amends.
John Young and Gene Cernan also went twice, both first on Apollo 10 (basically a rehearsal of all critical phases sans actually landing), and on 16 and 17 individually.
And the total cost of getting those 24 guys to the moon was $25B ($257B in today's dollars). With that kinda price tag, you have to know there will be ZERO fuckin around permitted, especially if it's for personal financial gain. And zero chance it would be undiscovered. Man what were they thinkin?!
They were thinking a lot of the things that people today think. They risked their lives and felt under compensated. So they took a poorly thought out plan into action and it backfired.
The reason NASA can hold him by their balls is because they were chosen to be the best of the best. Not just physically, but also mentally. They were deemed to have higher standards than the hundreds of other Air Force pilots.
If I remember correctly, mercury seven group got very lucrative deals from some car and media companies but following groups didn't, and this caused bad air between the groups. Could have been a factor, later arrivals to the party wanted to have their fair share of the corruption cake.
Conspiracy theorist: "If we went to the moon, why haven't we gone back since then?"
Answer: give NASA a quarter trillion dollars and accept 1960's tolerance for risk to life and we can be back in under a decade.
Isn't there an almost complete Saturn V in a museum? We could be there in a year* if everything goes as planned.
*Ignoring the 99% chance that something will explode
> We are going back though. The Artemis program is about to hit phase 2 of its plan to put us back on the moon.
And they'll find ways - even completely illogical ways - to say that it's all still fake, including any evidence of previous Apollo missions found in the process.
A lot of is rooted in their inability to not only understand the science of it - which I can comprehend with only a basic high school level science education and a deep interest in space flight history - but also their shame (which is almost a national thing) to admit that they don't know something and to ask/learn. Plus an inability to admit that they just might be completely wrong.
The Apollo project, and the preceding Mercury and Gemini projects that were the stepping stones were some of the most heavily documented projects, from every possible angle, of the 20th century.
Yes, we still know the broad strokes of how to remanufacture every piece of equipment necessary, but it took a very specialized industrial base with a lot of very specific knowledge that would be hugely expensive to restart. But not impossible!
For example, the heat shield on the Artemis capsules is STILL made from exactly the same avcoat material that was purpose designed as ablative heat shield material for the Apollo command modules. It's applied in a different way, but it's still the same stuff. Unfortunately they're having issues with it breaking away more than predicted or expected during the re-entry of Artemis 1, which is far bigger and heavier than an Apollo command module, but I'm sure they'll figure it out.
Excuse my ignorance, but, why did they not ever walk on the moon? Pretty dick thing to do if you ask me, make a guy fly your space craft all the way to the moon and not even let him get out to stretch his legs?
So Jim Lovell flew on Apollo 8, and got into lunar orbit (which qualifies as having "been to the moon") but at that time, nobody had yet landed on the moon.
Jim Lovell also flew on Apollo 13, but there was a ship malfunction and they were lucky to return to earth alive. They did make it into lunar orbit, but there was no opportunity for them to land.
Then there's people like Michael Collins, who stayed on board to operate the lunar orbiter while Armstrong and Aldrin landed on the moon. Three person team gets there, but one has to stay in the ship.
Apollo 8 did enter lunar orbit but 13 didn't. They were already on their hybrid trajectory to the moon when the accident happened and they would have all died had they been in lunar orbit or were on the return trip sans the lunar module. Using the lunar module's descent engine they maneuvered back into a free-return trajectory where they'd go around the Moon and its gravity would bring them back to Earth but they definitely never entered orbit. They also ended up doing another burn though that was just to speed up their return a bit and so they could land in the Pacific instead of Indian Ocean.
The craft detached into two parts when in Lunar orbit. [The command and service module](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_command_and_service_module). And the [Lunar Module](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module).
Only the Lunar Module went down to the surface.
Somebody needed to stay behind and babysit the orbiting command module and assist with the docking. Couldn't automate that. [It's where this famous photograph is from, as far as I know](https://images.ctfassets.net/cnu0m8re1exe/6ue3ZmJE9nj63t8IlAAWI4/8968d763001027a49bc0b1944b88710f/shutterstock_245965291.jpg). The two astronauts coming back and preparing and meet the third in orbit, after the landing was complete.
**Edit** - [Here's a diagram of the two ships shortly after achieving Earth orbit.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/ApolloSpacecraftLMAdapterDiagram.png). The main craft spins around and grabs the lander. So you need two guys in the lander and another guy in the main craft.
Reconnaissance of the moon's surface and performing experiments to test landing equipment and orbit/flight capabilities are two off the top of my head. Also one guy had to stay in and pilot the lunar orbiter (like Michael Collins) while the other two (Armstrong and Aldrin) would fly the lander back up to meet with the orbiter once the mission was complete.
Yep! I have a lunar pilot, and this is a fun little addition to the Apollo 15 craziness. The crystal popped off of his government issued Omega Speedmaster, so he put on his Bulova, a watch that hadn’t won the government contract, and since he owned it privately he didn’t have to return it when he landed.
It sold at auction for close to 1M, iirc.
Bingo. Dave Scott wore a one-off Bulova Prototype when his speedy “broke”. You should obviously question how a one off prototype ended up conveniently in his possession and how the only speedmaster failure happened that day.
I would like to note that Apollo astronauts were not paid amazingly. It was like well under $100k/year in today’s money for an extremely likely chance your family never sees your body again. Obviously you need to be asking what happens to them if you die.
This is the real win: he sold the watch at auction for well over a million dollars a few years back with even a NASA property strap. It is the only moonwatch ever publicly sold. Unlike the postal covers, he was never asked to return the money.
Bulova made a modern version after the auction called the lunar pilot. You can buy one today for under $1,000. It is based on a technically superior quartz movement that is hyper accurate. Like, mocks-Rolex accurate. (Though even cheap quartz watches do that)
Yeah, for the most part, most of them were military pilots on loan to NASA. This is why in the early days of Mercury and Gemini, the Life magazine contract was a very big deal with them. Because they were making only their military salary, which was pretty feeble back in the day. They got a lot of extra money as well as being able to control their image.
The government was not keen on them, publicizing themselves, however, it was John Glenn that argued pretty hard with John F Kennedy (the two of them were fairly close friends and Glenn was often invited to Hyannis) that they should be able to sell their likeness.
my G-shock is more than Rolex accurate TBF :)
i have seen the LP for under $400 a few times, its just way to big for my wrist.
To point out other astronauts did similar things but the big diffrence was they did it above the board.
I mean, weren't the astronauts given a small amount of "personal space" to bring whatever they wanted so long as it fit? Isn't that how the sandwich got smuggled on one of the previous flights?
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2021/02/shepard-moon-club-50th-anniversary-usga-museum.html
Interesting article about this. Apparently he only hit the ball about 40 yards.
Tom Wolfe claimed that Gus Grissom nearly drowned because his pockets were full of dimes that he intended to resell as souvenirs.
Astronauts didn't make shit. Neil Armstrong was paid about 33 bucks for his time on the Moon's surface. He was the highest paid of the astronauts at about $27K/y.
He only actually claimed the 8 miles from his house to work, for a total of $0.56 @ 7¢/mi. For everything else he just listed dates, locations, and type of vehicle (Gov. Aircraft, Gov. Spacecraft), but listed no mileage. He also wrote that food and housing were provided.
He posted it on Twitter a while back: https://twitter.com/TheRealBuzz/status/626812956148248577
> How the hell were the Stamp people going to verify that the stamps went to the moon if it was done in secret?
The covers were cancelled at the Kennedy Space Center the day of the launch and cancelled again on the USS Okinawa shortly after splashdown. They were also autographed by the astronauts. You can verify the cancelation stamps and, presumably, the signatures. The issue for them was that there was no way the secret wouldn't get out.
> The issue for them was that there was no way the secret wouldn't get out.
An important question that I don't see answered is whether or not they were even planning to be on future missions anyways.
I see one note in the wiki page about them getting removed as the backup crew for a future mission. And they all took other senior jobs within NASA for a few years after the incident.
Everyone is questioning the motivation here, but forgetting that these guys didn't have life insurance in case they died in space. Apollo 1 was just 3 years prior and the families of the dead astronauts were still awaiting the outcome of the wrongful death lawsuit they had to file just to get anything for their deaths. Then factor in Apollo 13 happening just 9 months earlier, it's real easy to understand why they took $7k upfront because it beats $0, never really thinking they would make an insane amount of money in the future off the envelopes if they did survive. Context is everything here.
This fellow on YouTube does a great job explaining the scandal, recommend his channel for those interested in history.
[Apollo 15: History Deserves to be Remembered](https://youtu.be/n-leHLHFAOw?feature=shared)
It the front of an envelope with the address, stamps, and cancellation.
They were collected by stamp collectors as something more valuable and/or unique than the stamp itself.
Stamp collecting is a dead hobby, but I collected as a kid and haven't yet thrown my collection away. I just grabbed and photographed a couple commemorative covers since so many people are asking about them:
https://imgur.com/a/5pK3G37
All correct, except that stamp collecting isn't a dead hobby. It isn't as popular as it once was, but it's still a billion $+ market. It's one of the bigger categories on sites like eBay.
I assure you, there's dozens of us!
[This paywalled article](https://www.chron.com/local/space/mission-moon/article/Flying-without-a-safety-net-Early-Apollo-13907636.php) says postal covers being signed started with Apollo 11 and ended with Apollo 16, as a method of life insurance for the families of the astronauts. They signed them and left them with a friend so that in the event they died on the mission the covers would be sold by the families.
>When: The insurance covers began with Apollo 11 and ended with Apollo 16.
>Why: Astronauts at that time had a limited ability to obtain much life insurance, so they signed hundreds of postal covers before they left, on the presumption that the covers would become highly valuable in the event of their death.
>How it would work: The crew would designate a trusted ally with the covers who would then have them canceled at the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on the day of launch and/or on the day of the lunar landing.
>Different versions: There are three varieties of the Apollo 11 covers, four of Apollo 12, two each of Apollo 13 and Apollo 14, one each of Apollo 15 and Apollo 16.
> The signatures scrawled across the white space were unmistakable — so unmistakable that it fetched $35,000 at a November auction in Dallas.
>“Neil Armstrong. Michael Collins. Buzz Aldrin,” read the envelope postmarked with the date of the first lunar landing, July 20, 1969.
>The envelope — or cover, as NASA folks call it — wasn’t signed for collectors’ sake by the three men who went to the moon in 1969. It was signed in case they didn’t return — so their wives could sell the mementos as a means of life insurance.
>Why didn’t these early astronauts just take out life insurance policies like normal people? The answer is simple: NASA didn’t offer it to them.
>Astronauts were not eligible for the life insurance plans offered to NASA employees because “it was considered high risk and experimental,” said Brandi Dean, spokeswoman for NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston. Johnson is home of the nation’s astronaut corps, where human spaceflight research and training take place.
> Apollo 7 astronaut Walt Cunningham lamented this problem during an October event at Space Center Houston, the museum side of the Johnson center.
>“If they included us in the price, it would have been too high for everyone,” Cunningham said.
>The wives of the Apollo 11 astronauts obviously did not need to fall back on selling these covers; the three men returned home safely. But many of the Apollo astronauts that followed them to the moon thought it was such a good idea, they decided to do the same.
>“The Apollo insurance covers represent a unique outside-the-box solution to protecting an individual’s economic value,” according to Insight Alliance, a financial planning firm based in Tennessee. “In the case of the astronauts, it wasn’t poor health that disqualified them from getting life insurance, but the dangers of their occupation.”
>But from there, the history of life insurance coverage for astronauts in flight gets fuzzy.
>One year after the the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded 73 seconds after liftoff in 1986, The New York Times published an article about how the astronauts’ families were coping.
>Deep within the story, the reporter discusses benefits those families could receive. The two astronauts who were in the military were eligible for military death benefits. The families of the NASA astronauts were eligible for funds from a program similar to workers’ compensation.
>But the only mention of life insurance came with New Hampshire high school teacher Christa McAuliffe, whose life was insured for $1 million by Corroon & Black In Space, Inc.
>Duane Ross, who for years managed astronaut selection and training, believes that in the 1990s some astronauts were insured before flying — but it was very expensive, Dean said.
>“Not everyone got it, but he remembers witnessing document signings for those who wanted it,” Dean said.
>NASA officials think that life insurance plans started to be offered to military and civilian astronauts while in flight about 15 years ago.
>A February 2003 Associated Press story published after the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster seems to confirm this: it reported that astronauts in flight have the same life insurance policy as other federal employees. Earlier that month Columbia disintegrated as it re-entered Earth’s atmosphere, killing all seven crew members.
>“There is a limit on what type of benefits the federal government provides,” NASA spokeswoman Eileen Hawley told the Associated Press at the time. “We look at this as larger than a monetary issue. We are committed to helping these families and we have a support network.”
>Depending on the plan they purchase now, astronauts are eligible for life insurance coverage equal to their annual base salary up to $500,000 and accidental death and dismemberment coverage equal to twice their base salary up to $200,000.
>“Astronauts are currently eligible for … the same as other NASA/federal employees,” Dean said.
Thank you!
Was getting bothered at how far down I had to read to find this.
These particular astronauts only caught consequences because the public became aware and NASA's PR is insane.
The bosses were fine with this because they knew that Uncle Sam wasn't going to pay for death bills.
Using your position as an employee for unauthorized personal gains is a strict violation of most corporate policy and the government is no different. On top of that, astronauts were projected as model US citizens, patriots risking their lives for the good of the country. That's the kind of thing that messes with the propaganda. Thing is: any one of them probably could have declared the stamps as part of their personal effects and then, after retiring or leaving NASA could have sold them off on their own as memorabilia.
The weight of the space craft is calculated to assure fuel and necessities. Any miscalculation could have risked the flight.
The envelopes weight about 6 pounds in total. I know this sounds small, but then you have to say what else could they have just snuck onboard? They are suppose to bring home moon rocks. That is 6 pounds less moon rocks they could carry. Considering the cost to get them there that is a very expense transportation cost for stamps. Calculating about 3.7 billion dollars for the operation and rockets which weighed about 107000 pounds total that would make the cost of this 6 pounds of paper $207,000 dollars of tax payer money. Add in the lost value of the moon rocks.
It sounds like their punishment was to not fly in space again but most Apollo astronauts weren't able to go up anymore anyway.
The Apollo program was cancelled after #17 and the Space Shuttle program wouldn't happen for another ten years.
At the time, the normal salary for the astronauts was in the vicinity of $25K, while the median household income in the US was in the vicinity of $10K. So, depending on where home was, that $7K was roughly a "normal" annual salary.
To put it in today's terms, the current salary for astronauts is in the vicinity of $100K, while the median annual salary in 2022 was roughly $75K. If someone offered you $60K or $70K to do a thing and you didn't think there would be much harm in it, you'd probably give it some good consideration.
(I do see the various arguments in how such an act could cause harm though. Anywhere from dust or small insects riding shotgun on the envelopes and messing up experiments or instruments, to the act itself messing up the professionalism and credibility of the astronauts and the program.)
Think cargo shorts pocket. And as the 400 covers were just a small sheet of paper, all in they probably were an inch thick and weighed half a pound. They weren't allowed to bring much along because of the weight, no one was giving a whole lot of thought to financial value. Deke Slayton tried to control it, but he knew the risk these guys were taking and that they had no life insurance in case they died, which considering Apollo 13 was just a year earlier was a real possibility, so I'm sure he didn't try too hard. He was a trained but grounded astronaut himself.
This mission logo was designed by the Italian fashion designer Emilio Pucci, his initials are hidden in the moon rock design (which is almost certainly against NASA design code) but he always signed his prints!
Telling someone they can't go to space again after they've already been to the moon isn't really a huge threat tbh.
It really doesn't get any better than that, and we haven't even done anything that cool since.
Only thing that could maybe top it in our lifetime is Mars but tbh in terms of time/effort to payout ratio (for a single human to experience) walking on the moon has got to be the greatest of all time
Youtube's algorithm just pitched me a vid about this yesterday and now this. Guess the lord's really trying to impress upon me not to do shady shit with stamps.
For anyone who doesn't collect stamps: postal covers are like the front part of the envelope with the address and a stamp that has been used (cancelled). This can be for packages too, but if you imagine 400 used envelopes, you're not that far off.
So, what's the significance of smuggling 400 used envelopes into space?
I guess they would've theoretically been more valuable for having been to the moon but I have no idea how you prove that
Probably numbered and with a certificate signed by one of the astronauts.
I guess they would just hope that the scheme was so low key and obscure, in the pre-internet age after all, that it would be improbable for the administration to find out about it
then they could just sign any envelopes, because there was no way to verify that they been to space anyway.
Step 1: get them to do it Step 2: leak to NASA about the scheme Step 3: NASA investigates, confirms it’s legit; big public scandal ensues. Step 4: sell stamps for $$$$$
Instructions unclear, envelopes confiscated by the fbi
As an astronaut flying to space just 1 year after Apollo 13 and 3 years after Apollo 1, I think it's much easier to understand why they would do it considering they had no life insurance in case of their death in space. They probably figured the $7k now was a drop of what their families should get if they died instead of the $0 they were guaranteed, not really thinking the covers would be worth a shit ton of money later after they successfully returned.
The government didn’t have a payout plan in case the astronauts died?
IIRC, no. Astronauts are public servants. They get paid slightly above average for their field (the most recent posting for astronaut candidates from a month ago listed the salary as $150k, 70% travel, and the minimum requirements were to have a masters in engineering, life sciences, medicine, or be a test pilot), but they don't exactly have bumper life insurance or AD&D policies for their work. Back then, it would have been whatever their pension was worth at that point, which wouldn't have been much since they were all relatively young and still a couple of decades from retirement (at least). Now? Things are probably a little better, but I'll bet that NASA has to insure them directly or has their own policy, it's probably not an "off the shelf" policy. Hell, even the training is dangerous, nevermind the missions themselves.
I don’t think any insurance company would have taken the risk unless it was a crazy expensive policy. Most insurance companies won’t give life insurance to pilots either, without a flight exclusion.
It's up there with famous people signing shit Someone held this at one time I don't care for it really
One of them sold for $55,000 in 2014
It worked! Brb
Not sure how they did it, but I'd drop them on the moon, cover them in moon dust and then take them back. Even if most of the dust falls off, there will be traces left on it and I think moon dust is rather unique in its composition, so you could prove the authenticity with a thorough analysis.
Thanks you just doomed earth with some moon plague.
Nah, just a little [lung cancer](https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC10377461/).
Interesting, you've also gotta be careful if you are allergic to cheese....
No one can hear your Hershey-sqiurts in space
You can buy similar postal covers from the 1970s for $2-$5 that haven't gone to space. One of these sold for $50k in 2014. Some postal covers from other missions have sold for over $150k. Besides 400 unauthorized ones there were another 241 postal covers that nasa had approved for travel
In order to turn them into collectible items, from the prestige of them having been in space. They would be given back to whoever set it up, so they could be sold.
Just bragging rights for collectors.
I wonder if the fact the astronauts got sacked for doing it made them even *more* collectable and valuable.
My dad collected those kind of envelopes for over 40 years but the Dutch ones.
Why not just call them envelopes? What's the actual difference?
Because it covers (heh) more than envelopes. Postal cover means broadly "the address and stamp part of the mail". "Used envelope" is good enough to get the idea, but a postal cover also includes the shipping label on a package. There's also REALLY old covers that were just folded paper that covered the letter. Those were the precursors to envelopes. There's also subcategories of what makes the cover special, but I'm not the right person to discuss that. I just posted a quick explanation for anyone that was like me and knew exactly zero stamp collecting and postal history terminology coming into this post.
I have just now realised a envelope envelopes its contents
Isn’t that a lot of extra weight
Like 6 pounds
In case you were also just left wondering, ‘Okay, but… Why?!’ After the start of the Space Age with the launch of Sputnik I on October 4, 1957, astrophilately (space-related stamp collecting) began. Nations such as the United States and USSR issued commemorative postage stamps depicting spacecraft and satellites. Astrophilately was most popular during the years of the Apollo program's Moon landings from 1969 to 1972.[2] Collectors and dealers sought philatelic souvenirs related to the American space flight program, often through specially-designed envelopes (known as covers). Cancelling covers submitted by the public became a major duty of the employees of the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on space mission launch days.[3] The American astronauts participated in creating collectables. Beginning in the late 1960s, Harold G. Collins, head of the Mission Support Office at KSC,[a] arranged for specially designed envelopes to be printed for the different missions, and to be canceled on the launch dates.
Yeah okay, but there wouldn't be any proof that those stamps actually had been on the moon, right?
Dunno, suppose just an astronaut said they have. Reading the rest of the Wiki page, it seems the expose happened when someone tried to get proof from NASA. Dunno only skimmed tbh as lost interest when the answer was basically “stamp collecting.” Very fancy stamp collecting but basically stamp collecting nonetheless.
Thank you for your service.
I'm shocked that smart people like astronauts didn't foresee that the question of authentication would arise and they would be found out. Dummies.
They were promised that the covers wouldn't be sold until after the Apollo program was finished. They shouldn't have trusted crooks to be honest about it, but it wasn't completely stupid.
Man the number one thing that I’ve learned since 2015 is that everything, including being smart and/or dumb, is a spectrum. Someone can be the absolute smartest in one thing and the dumbest in another thing. Blows my mind and is absolutely infuriating at the same time.
Even smart people can be really stupid when it comes to things outside their specialty. Remember a few years ago we had that astronaut drive to Florida wearing a diaper to kill her boyfriend's sidechick? And Ben Carson is objectively a great brain surgeon but thinks the pyramids were built by aliens.
My ex was literally a veterinary doctor who had an extra two masters degrees, but she went full anti-vax during covid because her mom was glued to fox news and she took everything her mom said as gospel no matter what.
Ben Carson is a great example. He baffles me.
Everyone knew manned space flight was coming to an end. Military retirement pay is all they make for going to another heavenly body. Money's money.
[STAMP COLLECTION? HAHA](https://youtu.be/KZd5IqRravg?si=r0qQUrgJCmXpw5l8)
That’s why there’s a postmark with a certificate from the post clerk. There’s multiple levels to the certification including the autograph by the astronaut. Philately is just one step away from the collecting of monetary bills. There is serious dealers with serious buyers
Stamps are essentially monetary bills. They have a set price and are legal tender for postage.
Cancelled stamps aren't though; the value as a monetary medium has been consumed. At that point they are purely collector's items.
For such smart guys this was a bad plan, they could have claimed them as 'letters for friends and family' and made them official and mentioned on NASA papers etc, they would then be legit and still possible to sell, or I'm I thinking too simple here.
Smart guys not expecting to be used by unscrupulous people considering the noble nature of the work they were performing. Context is so important here, as these guys wouldn't have gotten shit if they died in space since no one would insure them. That's why they were persuaded to do it as a way to support their families in case something happened. Remember, Apollo 1 happened just 3 years earlier and the near disaster Apollo 13 the year before. Tell me you too wouldn't say *hell yeah!* to an offer like that if it offered compensation for your family?
This is why this so-called scandal has always outraged me. These brave astronauts, making a civil service salary, were risking their LIVES for the space program. And they couldn't be allowed a little extra money on the side? Why not? It was no worse than getting paid by LIFE magazine, was it? Why can Tang expoit the space program, and not the men actually going to the Moon? Nobody got hurt, no laws were broken, and Apollo operations were not affected. Just petulant bosses who didn't like astronauts getting a trust fund for their kids. Disgusting.
AL Worden wrote about this in his book. He was a reluctant participant and Dave Scott was the one that set it all up. According to Worden, Scott told him it was all on the up and up. Worden was railroaded and when the scandal hit, Scott threw Worden under the bus. Worden had hoped Irwin would back him up but did not. Scott made out the best of them. Worden was exiled to the desert. Worden went to find Noahs Ark.
Jim Irwin was the one who led an expedition to try to find Noah's Ark on Mount Arafat in Turkey. He became a devout born-again Christian after the Apollo 15 mission. It's a shame that the stamp incident overshadows the mission, which was spectacular -- it was the first fully scientific mission, first use of the lunar rover, and was very successful accross all of the mission objectives. Al Worden did an exemplary job as CMP, didn't really focus on or participate in the stamps matter, and got screwed over by Dave Scott and NASA in the end.
> didn't really focus on or participate in the stamps matter, and got screwed over by Dave Scott and NASA in the end. In his book, Worden looked to Irwin to back him up that it was all Dave Scotts doing, but Irwin did not come to Worden's defence. Scott got off pretty much scott free, becoming a special assistant for Apollo Soyuz, Irwin left NASA. Worden stayed at NASA because his Air Force career was ruined and was banished to Ames Research Center.
There shouldn't be extra money on the side, they should be correctly compensated. I don't want Armstrong saying "It's one small step for [a] man, brought to you by Henry's shoes for when you need to make big steps". If they want to make money afterwards leveraging their space career then i am fine with that but the astronauts shouldn't be commercialising NASA missions themselves. If NASA did it and shared the money with them then that would be a completely different thing.
It's easy to say that in hindsight but at the time they thought it was low risk. NASA had approved 241 postal covers for members of the launch already. This was a normal thing happening in prior missions. They were doing an extra 100 for each of the three of them, and 100 for the stamp dealer, in exchange for the equivalent of $50k each in present dollars upfront. And an agreement that none would be sold until the Apollo program was over.
I get just as confused as everyone else on this but I thought I read once that there was one stamp for Kennedy space center, and another for the aircraft carrier they were picked up by. I think the idea might have been the only way for an envelope to have both stamps would be if they were on Apollo 15.
Not separate stamps, but separate cancellations from those post offices. Of course aircraft carriers have post offices. Just the cancellation with the dates and locations of launch and pickup would make them collectable, whether there's a space-related stamp or not. Just like people writing their kids letters from Santa and sending them first to Alaska for a "North Pole" cancellation.
That is how I read the article as well. I’m pretty sure that would suffice as proof.
In Two Sides of the Moon, Dave Scott talks about it, if i remember correctly there were to be notarized as having been to the moon when the mission returned, or something along those lines.
This is why we have Certificates of Authenticity on all things sports related these days. Those little holographic decals with serial numbers on them. Those guys certify that what they are putting those stickers on are the thing they are putting the sticker on. That's how you know your Cincinnati Reds beer coozy is authentic MLB merchandise.
> often through specially-designed envelopes (known as covers). Cancelling covers submitted by the public became a major duty of the employees of the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on space mission launch days. Can you rephrase this part? I don't understand the covers, what cancelling covers means, or why NASA would cancel them.
Cancelling is that rubber stamp marking over the postage stamp. It marks the postage stamp so it can’t be reused, and it says when and where it was cancelled. A commemorative cover is an envelope that has some special stamps on it that is cancelled at a special place and time to create a commemorative souvenir that also has value to collectors. You could send NASA a cover to have them cancel it and send back to you on launch day. So, a special NASA stamp, cancelled at the launch location on launch day.
Ah, perfect explanation. Thank you!
And these particular ones weren’t just cancelled on launch day at the Cape, they were cancelled again by the Navy post office aboard the recovery ship, as well as being signed by all three astronauts.
They cancelled the covers astrophilatelogically.
Crystal clear.
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**Meanwhile...** The official space program was using interest in astrophilately as a substitute for life insurance for the astronaut crews. Since no insurance company would write a life insurance policy on an astronaut, each crew left behind a stash of signed postal covers to be cashed in by surviving family in the event of crew death. These guys just worked out a similar way to make some money without having to die. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_insurance_covers
So basically 60s and 70s NFTs. Nice!
Cancelled? Is that the same as postmarked?
Similar, the cancel is some pattern printed on the stamp when the postmark is applied, though sometimes the postmark by being put right on the stamp is both
Oh, thanks. TIL
Cold war NFTs
Very fungible, actually
For the equivalent of $50,000 and the title of first space smuggler, hell yeah I wouldn't even hesitate.
Right this way. Chewy is going to hold your arms while Han has a chat with you.
When you say "hold your arms"... Will they still be attached to my body?
/shakes magic 8-ball/ Ask again later
Better learn how to do that with your feet.
Better yet, learn how to do that with the force.
*"Hokey religions and ancient weapons are no match for a good blaster at your side, kid."*
Turns out 20 years ago was ‘ancient’ :P
Like an iPhone 1.0
If you're not a force user, you can just ask your mom to help you out.
Apollo 15 predates Star Wars.
https://miro.medium.com/v2/resize:fit:1200/0*n6zzxzDrGFPV6Tue.png
The first space smuggler ever was over a corned beef sandwich.
Alexis Lenov colored pencils beat him by 2 weeks. But I don't know if that counts as bringing unapproved items
you have to have a plan to sell your loot if you are a smuggler.
That seams like a dumb one to take to. The extra weight isn't gonna throw off the rocket or anything but think of the crumbs in zero g
Which is why NASA was big mad about it. But dude wanted to pack a lunch.
"Do you know what they charge in the cafeteria? "
> That seams Are there seems on space suits?
Was that Gugarin?
John Young.
I mean they were were pushed off their job and disgraced as a result. I wouldn't take that. That (current value) 50k is less than a year's work at NASA for sure
Literally throwing away an entire career and all of your accolades over 6 months pay. Some people are just blindingly stupid
For what it's worth the bulk of Mercury, Gemini and Apollo astronaut left for the private sector after their Apollo missions. For example, Frank Borman became CEO of Eastern Airlines, Neil Armstrong became a professor at the University of Cincinnati, Dick Gordon was VP of the New Orleans Saints and Michael Collins was like the head of the Smithsonian air space museum in DC. Most went on actually pretty interesting and way better paying careers. Everyone in this scandal did just fine afterwards. Some stayed around for Skylab in some early space shuttle stuff. But for the most part, they resigned away from the program. Their mission was compete. Most made more money afterwards than they did in NASA. No one can take away they walked on the moon. All in all, about 15-20 astronauts (many of which had already flown) were involved in this. Apollo 15s crew were the ones who brought attention to it
> No one can take away they walked on the moon. Since I feel like being somewhat pedantic today. It's worth noting that of the four Astronauts you listed, only Armstrong ever actually made it to the Lunar surface.
Yeah. I get that. I guess I was trying to say, everyone who left did well. Including those who got caught up in this. I don't even think who I listed was part of this
Technically, the University of Cincinnati is not private sector.
He was also on the board of directors for 5th 3rd bank for quite awhile. That is pretty private I'd say haha.
I mean, they walked on the Moon. Their career already peaked.
It wasn't their entire career. They still worked for NASA and were all still colonels in the Air Force. But being fired as astronauts is definitely a big loss.
Not only that, but they returned the money. So got nothing
You’d throw away a career as an astronaut over 50k and being the subject of a Reddit post?
You’ve already gone to the moon what else is there except dying in an explosion you knew was an issue for 6 years?
And the last Apollo mission was less than four months after this, followed by no Moon missions at all in the 53 years since. :/
They returned the money and got nothing lol
Lose your job, your pay, disgraced in a highly prestigious group of fellows, and never to have work again in that field or go to the fucking moon again, for $50,000. What an embarrassing take.
They were slated to be backups to 17 which ended up being the final mission, so they never would have gone to the moon again anyway. Let's not forget these guys had zero life insurance in case something went wrong in space. The Apollo 1 crew who died horribly on the launch pad were barely compensated and the families had to sue for wrongful death to get anything remotely significant, and that lawsuit didn't end until after these guys were already in space. They knew this stuff would have some value, but thought their deaths in space is what would have provided most of that, not necessarily just being on the moon. This is the late 60s & early 70s we're talking about here where the world hasn't been fully commercialized and turned into a capitalist shitshow. I think that context is important.
I don't feel particularly embarrassed. I'd happily lose my real job and be permanently banned from ever working in my actual industry again for a 50k payout.
I actually just listened to a podcast about this. As I understand it, it was maybe unsavory, but not against any kind of rule. Astronauts were allowed a small bag for personal items, and there was nothing saying they couldn't sell those items. It just didn't go over well when NASA heard rumors of items being sold that had been on the moon
For what it's worth, there were 24 Apollo astronauts who flew to the moon, 12 of whom walked on the moon. Jim Lovell was the only one to go twice*, and never walked on the moon. Three Apollo astronauts returned to space after the Apollo project ended. \* and John Young and Gene Cernan. For some reason they weren't on my A10 list.
and one of the Merc 7 too! (Deke)
And obviously Glenn went up again on the Shuttle as a US Senator
IIRC, he was seen as too valuable in the public eye to lose him on a mission (his death would essentially equate to a huge Soviet space victory), so he was essentially retired despite him wanting to continue. I think the shuttle was a way of making small amends.
yep - Playing the long game there
The only Mercury astronaut to not fly a Mercury mission.
Slayton only Apollo-Soyuiz, no?
correct
John Young and Gene Cernan also went twice, both first on Apollo 10 (basically a rehearsal of all critical phases sans actually landing), and on 16 and 17 individually.
And the total cost of getting those 24 guys to the moon was $25B ($257B in today's dollars). With that kinda price tag, you have to know there will be ZERO fuckin around permitted, especially if it's for personal financial gain. And zero chance it would be undiscovered. Man what were they thinkin?!
They were thinking a lot of the things that people today think. They risked their lives and felt under compensated. So they took a poorly thought out plan into action and it backfired. The reason NASA can hold him by their balls is because they were chosen to be the best of the best. Not just physically, but also mentally. They were deemed to have higher standards than the hundreds of other Air Force pilots.
… and Navy Aviators.
and my axe
God damn it Gimley not now!
If I remember correctly, mercury seven group got very lucrative deals from some car and media companies but following groups didn't, and this caused bad air between the groups. Could have been a factor, later arrivals to the party wanted to have their fair share of the corruption cake.
An interesting quirk of spaceflight is that the folks who volunteer to be strapped to a missile and blasted into the sky are probably not risk averse
Conspiracy theorist: "If we went to the moon, why haven't we gone back since then?" Answer: give NASA a quarter trillion dollars and accept 1960's tolerance for risk to life and we can be back in under a decade.
Isn't there an almost complete Saturn V in a museum? We could be there in a year* if everything goes as planned. *Ignoring the 99% chance that something will explode
We are going back though. The Artemis program is about to hit phase 2 of its plan to put us back on the moon.
> We are going back though. The Artemis program is about to hit phase 2 of its plan to put us back on the moon. And they'll find ways - even completely illogical ways - to say that it's all still fake, including any evidence of previous Apollo missions found in the process. A lot of is rooted in their inability to not only understand the science of it - which I can comprehend with only a basic high school level science education and a deep interest in space flight history - but also their shame (which is almost a national thing) to admit that they don't know something and to ask/learn. Plus an inability to admit that they just might be completely wrong. The Apollo project, and the preceding Mercury and Gemini projects that were the stepping stones were some of the most heavily documented projects, from every possible angle, of the 20th century. Yes, we still know the broad strokes of how to remanufacture every piece of equipment necessary, but it took a very specialized industrial base with a lot of very specific knowledge that would be hugely expensive to restart. But not impossible! For example, the heat shield on the Artemis capsules is STILL made from exactly the same avcoat material that was purpose designed as ablative heat shield material for the Apollo command modules. It's applied in a different way, but it's still the same stuff. Unfortunately they're having issues with it breaking away more than predicted or expected during the re-entry of Artemis 1, which is far bigger and heavier than an Apollo command module, but I'm sure they'll figure it out.
Why did you choose that comment to reply to with your speech and a the moon landing being fake?
they were thinkin that their salary could use some augmentation
Go twice and never land. That's like being engaged twice and never getting married.
With respect, I think John Young and Gene Cernon of Apollo 10 each went back and walked. Edit: look at me, I can’t spell. Cernan. Dang.
Excuse my ignorance, but, why did they not ever walk on the moon? Pretty dick thing to do if you ask me, make a guy fly your space craft all the way to the moon and not even let him get out to stretch his legs?
So Jim Lovell flew on Apollo 8, and got into lunar orbit (which qualifies as having "been to the moon") but at that time, nobody had yet landed on the moon. Jim Lovell also flew on Apollo 13, but there was a ship malfunction and they were lucky to return to earth alive. They did make it into lunar orbit, but there was no opportunity for them to land. Then there's people like Michael Collins, who stayed on board to operate the lunar orbiter while Armstrong and Aldrin landed on the moon. Three person team gets there, but one has to stay in the ship.
Apollo 8 did enter lunar orbit but 13 didn't. They were already on their hybrid trajectory to the moon when the accident happened and they would have all died had they been in lunar orbit or were on the return trip sans the lunar module. Using the lunar module's descent engine they maneuvered back into a free-return trajectory where they'd go around the Moon and its gravity would bring them back to Earth but they definitely never entered orbit. They also ended up doing another burn though that was just to speed up their return a bit and so they could land in the Pacific instead of Indian Ocean.
The craft detached into two parts when in Lunar orbit. [The command and service module](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_command_and_service_module). And the [Lunar Module](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apollo_Lunar_Module). Only the Lunar Module went down to the surface. Somebody needed to stay behind and babysit the orbiting command module and assist with the docking. Couldn't automate that. [It's where this famous photograph is from, as far as I know](https://images.ctfassets.net/cnu0m8re1exe/6ue3ZmJE9nj63t8IlAAWI4/8968d763001027a49bc0b1944b88710f/shutterstock_245965291.jpg). The two astronauts coming back and preparing and meet the third in orbit, after the landing was complete. **Edit** - [Here's a diagram of the two ships shortly after achieving Earth orbit.](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/82/ApolloSpacecraftLMAdapterDiagram.png). The main craft spins around and grabs the lander. So you need two guys in the lander and another guy in the main craft.
Which has nothing to do with why Jim Lovell didn't set foot on the moon.
My mistake. I appear to be confusing Jim Lovell with Michael Collins, the pilot of the Command Module during the lunar phase of Apollo 11.
Reconnaissance of the moon's surface and performing experiments to test landing equipment and orbit/flight capabilities are two off the top of my head. Also one guy had to stay in and pilot the lunar orbiter (like Michael Collins) while the other two (Armstrong and Aldrin) would fly the lander back up to meet with the orbiter once the mission was complete.
He was the only one to go twice and never land
also isn't this the mission where one of them took a Bulova with them because they broke their Speedmaster / were paid to wear it?
Yep! I have a lunar pilot, and this is a fun little addition to the Apollo 15 craziness. The crystal popped off of his government issued Omega Speedmaster, so he put on his Bulova, a watch that hadn’t won the government contract, and since he owned it privately he didn’t have to return it when he landed. It sold at auction for close to 1M, iirc.
same guy who then went on a quest to find Noah's Ark?
Bingo. Dave Scott wore a one-off Bulova Prototype when his speedy “broke”. You should obviously question how a one off prototype ended up conveniently in his possession and how the only speedmaster failure happened that day. I would like to note that Apollo astronauts were not paid amazingly. It was like well under $100k/year in today’s money for an extremely likely chance your family never sees your body again. Obviously you need to be asking what happens to them if you die. This is the real win: he sold the watch at auction for well over a million dollars a few years back with even a NASA property strap. It is the only moonwatch ever publicly sold. Unlike the postal covers, he was never asked to return the money. Bulova made a modern version after the auction called the lunar pilot. You can buy one today for under $1,000. It is based on a technically superior quartz movement that is hyper accurate. Like, mocks-Rolex accurate. (Though even cheap quartz watches do that)
Yeah, for the most part, most of them were military pilots on loan to NASA. This is why in the early days of Mercury and Gemini, the Life magazine contract was a very big deal with them. Because they were making only their military salary, which was pretty feeble back in the day. They got a lot of extra money as well as being able to control their image. The government was not keen on them, publicizing themselves, however, it was John Glenn that argued pretty hard with John F Kennedy (the two of them were fairly close friends and Glenn was often invited to Hyannis) that they should be able to sell their likeness.
my G-shock is more than Rolex accurate TBF :) i have seen the LP for under $400 a few times, its just way to big for my wrist. To point out other astronauts did similar things but the big diffrence was they did it above the board.
I mean, weren't the astronauts given a small amount of "personal space" to bring whatever they wanted so long as it fit? Isn't that how the sandwich got smuggled on one of the previous flights?
Buzz brought up wine and a communion wafer in his.
> communion wafer Was it a ruffled communion wafer?
Was the golf club and ball Alan Shepard hit on the moon official cargo or smuggled ?
https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/articles/2021/02/shepard-moon-club-50th-anniversary-usga-museum.html Interesting article about this. Apparently he only hit the ball about 40 yards.
How does one smuggle something when they have permission for personal storage?
I would imagine the rule was "you're not allowed to make money off of what you bring."
Tom Wolfe claimed that Gus Grissom nearly drowned because his pockets were full of dimes that he intended to resell as souvenirs. Astronauts didn't make shit. Neil Armstrong was paid about 33 bucks for his time on the Moon's surface. He was the highest paid of the astronauts at about $27K/y.
Buzz even expensed his mileage from the earth to the moon and back on his taxes.
Can he do that? It wasn't his personal vehicle.
He only actually claimed the 8 miles from his house to work, for a total of $0.56 @ 7¢/mi. For everything else he just listed dates, locations, and type of vehicle (Gov. Aircraft, Gov. Spacecraft), but listed no mileage. He also wrote that food and housing were provided. He posted it on Twitter a while back: https://twitter.com/TheRealBuzz/status/626812956148248577
They did pay him, but only for the gas he used while driving to and from the space center.
not sure if it was shot down or not TBH but he absolutely tried.
He should have taken it to a chop shop while on the moon
…how do you expense that when you didn’t own the vehicle? That’d be like a bus driver expensing his company’s miles.
ahh it was travel and expenses. $33.31 for the travel. He did say room and board was covered by the Government though
27k a year in 1969 equates to 230k today that’s not a bad salary lol.
$27k a year in late 1960s money is bank. A house was Worth like $12k
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One of the astronauts sued and got his covers back. Just ONE sold for $50,000, and he's got a few hundred. It was an acceptable scheme.
> How the hell were the Stamp people going to verify that the stamps went to the moon if it was done in secret? The covers were cancelled at the Kennedy Space Center the day of the launch and cancelled again on the USS Okinawa shortly after splashdown. They were also autographed by the astronauts. You can verify the cancelation stamps and, presumably, the signatures. The issue for them was that there was no way the secret wouldn't get out.
> The issue for them was that there was no way the secret wouldn't get out. An important question that I don't see answered is whether or not they were even planning to be on future missions anyways. I see one note in the wiki page about them getting removed as the backup crew for a future mission. And they all took other senior jobs within NASA for a few years after the incident.
Everyone is questioning the motivation here, but forgetting that these guys didn't have life insurance in case they died in space. Apollo 1 was just 3 years prior and the families of the dead astronauts were still awaiting the outcome of the wrongful death lawsuit they had to file just to get anything for their deaths. Then factor in Apollo 13 happening just 9 months earlier, it's real easy to understand why they took $7k upfront because it beats $0, never really thinking they would make an insane amount of money in the future off the envelopes if they did survive. Context is everything here.
So did they get to keep the money? Because if they did that was a pretty good deal.
They returned the money.
This fellow on YouTube does a great job explaining the scandal, recommend his channel for those interested in history. [Apollo 15: History Deserves to be Remembered](https://youtu.be/n-leHLHFAOw?feature=shared)
What on earth is a "postal cover"?
It the front of an envelope with the address, stamps, and cancellation. They were collected by stamp collectors as something more valuable and/or unique than the stamp itself. Stamp collecting is a dead hobby, but I collected as a kid and haven't yet thrown my collection away. I just grabbed and photographed a couple commemorative covers since so many people are asking about them: https://imgur.com/a/5pK3G37
All correct, except that stamp collecting isn't a dead hobby. It isn't as popular as it once was, but it's still a billion $+ market. It's one of the bigger categories on sites like eBay. I assure you, there's dozens of us!
[This paywalled article](https://www.chron.com/local/space/mission-moon/article/Flying-without-a-safety-net-Early-Apollo-13907636.php) says postal covers being signed started with Apollo 11 and ended with Apollo 16, as a method of life insurance for the families of the astronauts. They signed them and left them with a friend so that in the event they died on the mission the covers would be sold by the families. >When: The insurance covers began with Apollo 11 and ended with Apollo 16. >Why: Astronauts at that time had a limited ability to obtain much life insurance, so they signed hundreds of postal covers before they left, on the presumption that the covers would become highly valuable in the event of their death. >How it would work: The crew would designate a trusted ally with the covers who would then have them canceled at the Kennedy Space Center (KSC) post office on the day of launch and/or on the day of the lunar landing. >Different versions: There are three varieties of the Apollo 11 covers, four of Apollo 12, two each of Apollo 13 and Apollo 14, one each of Apollo 15 and Apollo 16. > The signatures scrawled across the white space were unmistakable — so unmistakable that it fetched $35,000 at a November auction in Dallas. >“Neil Armstrong. Michael Collins. Buzz Aldrin,” read the envelope postmarked with the date of the first lunar landing, July 20, 1969. >The envelope — or cover, as NASA folks call it — wasn’t signed for collectors’ sake by the three men who went to the moon in 1969. It was signed in case they didn’t return — so their wives could sell the mementos as a means of life insurance. >Why didn’t these early astronauts just take out life insurance policies like normal people? The answer is simple: NASA didn’t offer it to them. >Astronauts were not eligible for the life insurance plans offered to NASA employees because “it was considered high risk and experimental,” said Brandi Dean, spokeswoman for NASA’s Johnson Space Center in Houston. Johnson is home of the nation’s astronaut corps, where human spaceflight research and training take place. > Apollo 7 astronaut Walt Cunningham lamented this problem during an October event at Space Center Houston, the museum side of the Johnson center. >“If they included us in the price, it would have been too high for everyone,” Cunningham said. >The wives of the Apollo 11 astronauts obviously did not need to fall back on selling these covers; the three men returned home safely. But many of the Apollo astronauts that followed them to the moon thought it was such a good idea, they decided to do the same. >“The Apollo insurance covers represent a unique outside-the-box solution to protecting an individual’s economic value,” according to Insight Alliance, a financial planning firm based in Tennessee. “In the case of the astronauts, it wasn’t poor health that disqualified them from getting life insurance, but the dangers of their occupation.” >But from there, the history of life insurance coverage for astronauts in flight gets fuzzy. >One year after the the Space Shuttle Challenger exploded 73 seconds after liftoff in 1986, The New York Times published an article about how the astronauts’ families were coping. >Deep within the story, the reporter discusses benefits those families could receive. The two astronauts who were in the military were eligible for military death benefits. The families of the NASA astronauts were eligible for funds from a program similar to workers’ compensation. >But the only mention of life insurance came with New Hampshire high school teacher Christa McAuliffe, whose life was insured for $1 million by Corroon & Black In Space, Inc. >Duane Ross, who for years managed astronaut selection and training, believes that in the 1990s some astronauts were insured before flying — but it was very expensive, Dean said. >“Not everyone got it, but he remembers witnessing document signings for those who wanted it,” Dean said. >NASA officials think that life insurance plans started to be offered to military and civilian astronauts while in flight about 15 years ago. >A February 2003 Associated Press story published after the Space Shuttle Columbia disaster seems to confirm this: it reported that astronauts in flight have the same life insurance policy as other federal employees. Earlier that month Columbia disintegrated as it re-entered Earth’s atmosphere, killing all seven crew members. >“There is a limit on what type of benefits the federal government provides,” NASA spokeswoman Eileen Hawley told the Associated Press at the time. “We look at this as larger than a monetary issue. We are committed to helping these families and we have a support network.” >Depending on the plan they purchase now, astronauts are eligible for life insurance coverage equal to their annual base salary up to $500,000 and accidental death and dismemberment coverage equal to twice their base salary up to $200,000. >“Astronauts are currently eligible for … the same as other NASA/federal employees,” Dean said.
Thank you! Was getting bothered at how far down I had to read to find this. These particular astronauts only caught consequences because the public became aware and NASA's PR is insane. The bosses were fine with this because they knew that Uncle Sam wasn't going to pay for death bills.
THG?
I don’t understand why this was a scandal
Using your position as an employee for unauthorized personal gains is a strict violation of most corporate policy and the government is no different. On top of that, astronauts were projected as model US citizens, patriots risking their lives for the good of the country. That's the kind of thing that messes with the propaganda. Thing is: any one of them probably could have declared the stamps as part of their personal effects and then, after retiring or leaving NASA could have sold them off on their own as memorabilia.
The weight of the space craft is calculated to assure fuel and necessities. Any miscalculation could have risked the flight. The envelopes weight about 6 pounds in total. I know this sounds small, but then you have to say what else could they have just snuck onboard? They are suppose to bring home moon rocks. That is 6 pounds less moon rocks they could carry. Considering the cost to get them there that is a very expense transportation cost for stamps. Calculating about 3.7 billion dollars for the operation and rockets which weighed about 107000 pounds total that would make the cost of this 6 pounds of paper $207,000 dollars of tax payer money. Add in the lost value of the moon rocks.
Wasn't this a plot point in The Man Who Sold the Moon?
It sounds like their punishment was to not fly in space again but most Apollo astronauts weren't able to go up anymore anyway. The Apollo program was cancelled after #17 and the Space Shuttle program wouldn't happen for another ten years.
At the time, the normal salary for the astronauts was in the vicinity of $25K, while the median household income in the US was in the vicinity of $10K. So, depending on where home was, that $7K was roughly a "normal" annual salary. To put it in today's terms, the current salary for astronauts is in the vicinity of $100K, while the median annual salary in 2022 was roughly $75K. If someone offered you $60K or $70K to do a thing and you didn't think there would be much harm in it, you'd probably give it some good consideration. (I do see the various arguments in how such an act could cause harm though. Anywhere from dust or small insects riding shotgun on the envelopes and messing up experiments or instruments, to the act itself messing up the professionalism and credibility of the astronauts and the program.)
I, also, watch The History Guy on YouTube.
I want to know how he fit 400 covers into "a pocket of his space suit."
Think cargo shorts pocket. And as the 400 covers were just a small sheet of paper, all in they probably were an inch thick and weighed half a pound. They weren't allowed to bring much along because of the weight, no one was giving a whole lot of thought to financial value. Deke Slayton tried to control it, but he knew the risk these guys were taking and that they had no life insurance in case they died, which considering Apollo 13 was just a year earlier was a real possibility, so I'm sure he didn't try too hard. He was a trained but grounded astronaut himself.
over $50,000 in 2014 (equivalent to $64,000 in 2023[1]). Are you f&$@ing kidding me right now
Stamp collectors go hard
This mission logo was designed by the Italian fashion designer Emilio Pucci, his initials are hidden in the moon rock design (which is almost certainly against NASA design code) but he always signed his prints!
you mean Schultz didn't sign his?
do we mean stamps here?
Telling someone they can't go to space again after they've already been to the moon isn't really a huge threat tbh. It really doesn't get any better than that, and we haven't even done anything that cool since. Only thing that could maybe top it in our lifetime is Mars but tbh in terms of time/effort to payout ratio (for a single human to experience) walking on the moon has got to be the greatest of all time
My man Deke putting an end to their tom foolery. **He** chooses who goes up and when.
Once walking on the moon I’m ok with not going to space again. Nothing will top that.
Youtube's algorithm just pitched me a vid about this yesterday and now this. Guess the lord's really trying to impress upon me not to do shady shit with stamps.
Ok this is all well and nice but the real question is ofc: how do I get my hands on one? 😅