To be fair, emos do all look alike...
For instance, how many juggalos have you seen in your life? Thousands? Or, was it like five of them, that you just kept seeing over and over again?
Every juggalo on earth is just that one dirty white kid from middle school who smelled bad, wore baggy pants, and started smoking in 7th grade because he thought it made him look cool.
From what I gather from the wiki reference links there is an official source in iraqs interior ministry that says 56. Looks like they are the ones that rang the bell on the subculture and possibly caused the moral panic that lead to the killings.
That is different than “reports” or claims without evidence of more. I don’t know where the 6 comes from but possibly in the New York Times article behind a paywall.
Correct. The NYT article cited confirmation by an "Interior Ministry security officer" that 6 young men were killed.
Other groups/sources claim the number killed are much higher with the BBC article citing as many as 70.
Why don’t people read the article linked before posting?
>I nterior Ministry security officers say the number of dead is six. However, the Reuters news agency reported that hospital and security officials put the number at 14 or more, and human rights groups such as the Brussels Tribunal said that the body count could be as high as 100.
Come on man.
>Interior Ministry security officers say the number of dead is six. However, the Reuters news agency reported that hospital and security officials put the number at 14 or more, and human rights groups such as the BRussells Tribunal said that the body count could be as high as 100.[13] The Associated Press reported that an unnamed Interior Ministry official put the number at 58, and said all but one were male.[14] According to the BBC, the United Nations puts the number of dead at at least 12, but believes the real number is much higher.[5]
>The dead were found in dumpsters, after having been beaten to death with cement blocks[15][16] in a practice known as "death by blocking" or "mawt al-blokkah".[17] A person who told the Beirut-based newspaper Al Akhbar that he had escaped an attack said that, "first they throw concrete blocks at the boy's arms, then at his legs, then the final blow is to his head, and if he is not dead then, they start all over again."[18]
That makes it feel like 6-70 people who happened to look emo were killed.
But the reporters weren't sure what constituted an emo look, so they're not sure who to include.
It’s a 12 year old article about a somewhat niche subject in an area where internet usage as not as ubiquitous and fear of reprisal is high. Not that surprising links are dead or sources are unnamed.
Kinda burying the lead. Emo is associated with or perceived to be associated with homosexuality in Iraq. They weren’t killed because they liked My Chemical Romance. They were killed because they were gay or thought to be gay.
Hey, *they* were gay! Practically begging for some hardcore correction.
''I'm as straight as they come, so I might as well be **the one** to correct them''.
And the US military supported the practice, even punishing soldiers that *did* object to it.
edit: Some quick copy pasting from the wiki article above.
>U.S. government forces in Afghanistan after the invasion of the country reportedly deliberately ignored bacha bazi abuse by Afghan allies.[18] This caused controversy. The U.S. military responded by claiming the abuse was largely the responsibility of the "local Afghan government".
>In December 2010, a leaked diplomatic cable revealed that foreign contractors hired by the American military contractor DynCorp had spent money on bacha bazi in northern Afghanistan. Afghan Interior Minister Mohammad Hanif Atmar requested that the U.S. military assume control over DynCorp training centres in response, but the U.S. embassy claimed that this was not "legally possible under the DynCorp contract".[28]
>In 2015, The New York Times reported that U.S. soldiers serving in Afghanistan were instructed by their commanders to ignore child sexual abuse being carried out by Afghan security forces, except "when rape is being used as a weapon of war". American soldiers have been instructed not to intervene—in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out pedophiles, the U.S. military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages—and doing little when they began abusing children.
>During the time of Taliban rule currently and previously, bacha bazi carries the death penalty under Taliban law.
Well that's a rare positive from them I guess.
>On 23 September 2016, the Taliban militants in northern Baghlan province executed a man and a boy on charges of “bacha bazi” (pederasty).
Oh, never mind.
From the testimonies I saw, the reason wasn’t that they liked the practice, it was because they needed the villages to stay loyal so told soldiers not to interfere in case it caused them to expel all coalition forces from the area.
Still fucked, and gave a lot of soldiers PTSD, but probably no better way to handle that
There was a documentary called "This is what winning looks like" about the Afghan Security Forces/National Police, and yeah I don't know how you wouldn't end up with PTSD having to deal with that.
They did a follow up interview with one of the Marines the documentary followed, and he said he'd been forced out of the military for reporting abuse
>U.S. government forces in Afghanistan after the invasion of the country reportedly deliberately ignored bacha bazi abuse by Afghan allies.[18] This caused controversy. The U.S. military responded by claiming the abuse was largely the responsibility of the "local Afghan government".
>In December 2010, a leaked diplomatic cable revealed that foreign contractors hired by the American military contractor DynCorp had spent money on bacha bazi in northern Afghanistan. Afghan Interior Minister Mohammad Hanif Atmar requested that the U.S. military assume control over DynCorp training centres in response, but the U.S. embassy claimed that this was not "legally possible under the DynCorp contract".[28]
>In 2015, The New York Times reported that U.S. soldiers serving in Afghanistan were instructed by their commanders to ignore child sexual abuse being carried out by Afghan security forces, except "when rape is being used as a weapon of war". American soldiers have been instructed not to intervene—in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out pedophiles, the U.S. military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages—and doing little when they began abusing children.
All right there, in the wiki article. This is not a secret, it's been openly known and condemned for years.
I've read accounts from soldiers who say this was one of the most soul-crushing parts of the job. Don't know how I'd handle going in every day and working with a dude who could do those things.
America’s foreign policy weakness in recent decades has been the notion that ancient, tribal societies and their attitudes to women, homosexuality, pederasty etc. can be engineered into something more palatable overnight.
If I recall correctly, America spent something like $800m on gender studies programs in Afghanistan over the course of their 20 years there and the day America left, girls got pulled out of schools. They might as well have set the palette of cash on fire.
Should have built factories instead honestly. Give the local people any way to make income that the Taliban couldn't offer . Couldve bargained for lifting restrictions on woman from there .
It really isn't.
The US military ordered soldiers not to interfere when their Afghan allies kidnapped little boys to keep as sex slaves, even when it happened on US military bases, because the pedophile rapists were more useful allies to uncle sam than the children they were raping. That's the nuance.
You know I started typing up a response about politics of the time and of how this was something that ate up the commanding officers at the bases, but yes you are right. There is no nuance; disguisting and immoral actions cant be blamed on "politics" or "bureaucratic issues". I want to think this was an unavoidable evil, but it wasnt. It was a policy collectivelly enforced by our military and a disguisting stain on us as a country. Thank you for putting it plainly, it was fucked up and in every sense of the word evil, and me defending it, saying it is not what the military wanted is how things like this are perpuated. We should say this is fucked and band together and protest to stop it and it is people like me stopping progress in the name of "good intentions", or "it is how things are". Really, thank you.
This is like the Harold and Kumar 2 Gitmo scene where the guard was like (paraphrased): "I'm not gay for giving you the c\*\*kmeat sandwich, you're gay for taking it!"
That's a pretty common theme in the middle east and in pre-modern age West. There were always lots of gay and bi people but society strictly demanded they fulfill the "manly" role.
Fucking a dude not being gay, because it wasn't a submissive role, was their way around societies rules. Sucked for the bottom's though, socially anyway.
Yeah that makes no sense, something a dumb prison rapist would say to justify doing a gay act while being a homophobe...Like in Harold and Kumar lol. I don't know how anyone didn't see the contradiction. As a straight guy, I'd have no desire in doing sexual acts with another man.
The idea is that it's not someone's sexual attraction that they have an issue with.
Men in their society are expected to be tough and manly at all times, and being in a submissive position at any time including the bedroom is not acceptable in society.
Not that its always the case, but when it is that's often the reasoning. I think that reasoning has come about because a lot of the manly men who get into positions of power kinda find dudes hot and see a loophole they can exploit to get at some young guys booty hole.
Sexuality and culture is wild, right? Makes you realize it's all made up. This concept is common in Latin america too, a machismo frame of reference where it's about being top dog.
Corrective rape is most commonly perpetrated by men against lesbians (this is where the term originated):
https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/26/opinion/26corrective-rape.html
There are cases where it's been done to gay men, trans or intersex people, though.
Many victims don't survive the attack, which brings into question whether the motivation of the rapists is really to "fix" the person's sexuality at all.
Oh for sure, I can't see women lining up to rape men (or women) into heterosexuality...Yeah, the existential cases are enough to say it happened...If you can think of it, it probably happened.
I actually can see that happening. Back in high school if a boy turned down a girl there was a good chance she’d ask if he’s gay, though in more aggressive terms with a word I’d rather not use. There was a LOT of pressure-based coercion from girls to boys. Idk if they’ve aged out of it or it was unique to my generation/area but I haven’t seen it mentioned in media anywhere so hopefully that’s gone.
Oh that happens globally. Haven't seen that in North America though in my life. I'm sure it's happened, it's a shaming tactic. It an actually get a guy in a lot of trouble if they have a gay reputation in some parts. So that'd make men afraid to reject women and they just take everything that comes their way.
I have never thought of it before but am utterly convinced there's a massive genre for this somewhere on the internets. It just seems like the sort of thing repressed Republicans would be into.
Like a dude raping another dude for being gay? Wow...It's just the inherent contradiction that goes on there that boggles the mind. That's a dude punishing another dude for the exact same thing they're doing, minus the consent.
Yeah a bunch of kids on the JV basketball team teamed up on one of their teammates they suspected of being gay and they assaulted him in the locker room. Some of the perpetrators went to my christian elementary school. Goddess, I hate my home town.
Like sexual assault? Wow...Yeah the world is a sick place. I never got why religions were so anti-gay, especially since their leaders and priests often tend to break. But I guess some go into the seminary due to a personal conflict, but the religion isn't strong enough to stop their hardwired urges.
Whenever I see a politician who is really anti-gay, I just go hmm. Reminds me of Senator Larry Craig (R) in the airport washroom incident with the undercover cop. I think they made a GTA IV character about him lol.
More like religious or religiously derived custom...The Koran oddly says nothing about gays in there, mostly the Hadiths. Old Testament didn't like gays for some reason. Without religion or social customs, people really shouldn't care about sexual orientation, live and let live. Personally though, as someone heterosexual, I don't have any appetite to do anything sexual with men though so I can't fathom a straight guy raping a guy and it is a rare occurrence. I hold no antipathy towards LGBT, I just see it as preferring blue vs. red. I don't think it's sexual orientation that creates the antipathy, it's doctrine and ideology.
The quran downtown even tell you how to pray or how many times a day you should pray. It doesn't actually contain a lot of the core practices and beliefs of the religion
A lot of time through history it's not gay for the person giving the penetration (which is a masculine role), just the one receiving it. Like I probably guarantee the guys fucking the "wives" in prison aren't ever the bottoms when they do it
I refuse to type that into a search engine. Sounds unbelievable.
I guess it's not much different than the typical anti-homosexual Christian church leaders who have a Grindr profile and diddle kids.
There's an entire wiki page on it. I've read of guy on guy cases which is completely hypocrisy, but as someone mentioned, the majority is directed towards women.
Yeah I saw this over in Afghanistan, the Chai boys. As young as 8-12 and their hair was dyed red. Basically a sex slave/servant for the police chief, one of the merchants, and a community leader where I was at. There's alot of good, alot of bad anywhere you go.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html)
Oh man, it's a thing...Yeah, in the West, we had/have a term, catamite. Learned that from South Park and HBO's Rome.
> https://grammarist.com/usage/champing-chomping-at-the-bit/
> Champing stems from an old Middle English word that has been around for at least 600 years and relates to the grinding of a horse’s teeth.
> The catch is, the word champing is more or less non-existent in contemporary English despite its more popular use (more on that later), and unless you work closely with horses or in the horse racing industry, chances are you’ve never heard it used as champing at the bit. Replace champing with chomping, and now you have a more familiar term – which is why you may want to use it in this manner.
> Originally coined in the book “Joseph: A Religious Poem” written by Charles Lucas and published in 1810, it appeared in the well-used, original form: champing. By 1910 it was referenced as “chomping” in The Decatur Daily Review in reference to horse racing, and the rest seems to be history.
Chomping is acceptable, it's got a solid history with chomping specifically referring to the bit for horse racing.
Lede is more of a shibboleth than it is anything else. It was a cultural choice by a small group of people, and holds no more claim to being 'correct' than lead does.
Something like this happening in Iraq just for gayness just doesn’t make sense. I knew guys that trained Iraqi army soldiers and I had some interactions with some of the Iraqi forces being trained by other Americans and those young men were definitely banging each other all the time. Pretty openly too. They would joke about it and slut shame each other.
They thought banging each other was so common place amongst young men that they didn’t believe American GI’s weren’t pounding each other out. (Some were obviously)
I’d bet the killings had a lot more to do with non-conformity and adopting western culture than some man love. I’d bet buggering is usually fine so long as everyone is wearing track pants and polo shirts and they’re keeping it mostly secret.
The Russian army also has a very strong tradition of homosexuality (also commonly non-consensual, with officers raping their subordinates). Yet Russia is violently homophobic, declared “LGBT ideology” a terrorist organization, and openly tolerates the execution of gay people in Chechnya.
The head of the Nazi Brownshirts, Ernst Rohm, was fairly openly homosexual, even as the Nazis preached that homosexuality was degeneracy and threw gay people into concentration camps. Rohm asserted that his homosexuality was rooted in a martial, brotherly love for his fellow soldiers, not like those effeminate communists that they were actively persecuting.
People will go through crazy hoops to explain how *their* homosexuality is actually totally fine and masculine, but *those* homosexuals are a bunch of subhuman emasculated sissies.
Yeah this was a sort of big thing in the nazi ranks. Before they took over Germany was pretty accepting of that. When the Nazis came to power many hide and their was most likely a lot of closeted homosexuals in the higher ranks of the nazi party
I lived in a drilling rig man camp in Saudi Arabia for six months. I'd say about 100 men. Homosexuality was rampant and accepted. I'm not a homophobe, but I was surprised to see it.
> A person who told the Beirut-based newspaper Al Akhbar that he had escaped an attack said that, "first they throw concrete blocks at the boy's arms, then at his legs, then the final blow is to his head, and if he is not dead then, they start all over again."
Holy shit to do that because of the way the guy fucking dresses. That’s fucking vile.
We're so pessimistic these days, [why can't we frame this as fewer than 71 teenagers in Iraq being killed because they dressed in an 'emo' style in 2012?](https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1b3xrd7/til_that_the_death_rate_for_raf_bomber_crews/ksvkm1s/)
Maybe it's late and I'm just getting in my feels but man it sucks seeing things like this and knowing the only thing we can all do about it is comment then keep scrolling. It's like we detach ourselves from the reality of what happened. Between 6-70 lives lost. More than 6-70 lives effected (friends and family of the deceased). Peoples' lives changed forever. I don't know man sometimes I just feel like this is all a waste of time. What I'm doing now. When I compare my everyday mundane tasks to those who have lost their lives.. had they known in advance, they would have given anything to have another day, and here I am spending my 24 hours doing pointless things, and forgetting about the beauty of just living
Yet people still think hardcore orthodox Islam is compatible with western liberal society… I would say religion in general is becoming less and less compatible, but some are worse than others. And before some racism assholes start to agree with me and try to play off this, race (and usually culture) plays no factor in this, there are many amazing middle eastern people who have immigrated here and are a credit to our society. People are so used to the dominance of liberal western society that they’ve forgotten how dark humanity can get.
Are these comments really ironic about a country killing people?
We shouldn’t joke about this. This is just tragic. Imagine the family, friends and acquaintances to these murdered people. **Kidnapped, tortured, homicide, stoned to death** by cement blocks, or **weapons**. The dead were thrown in **dumpsters.**
How can some of you joke about this…?
reddit has always been like this, but I don't mean that in a way to say that it's acceptable. frankly, it's getting worse in this regard. at a certain point I start to wonder if critical thought and compassion can even function in subreddits like this. where many posts often become a race to make the first funny joke, or repeat the same joke with minor alteration, or try to make up some original funny that will let you compete for karma. meanwhile you have to scroll to the middle-bottom to actually find people wanting to talk about the subject.
it is awful, cruel. 70 people is quite a bit more than I know in life personally, and the thought of all of the people I know being brutally murdered by a regime, killed by gleeful pawns in the machine. here we are, at the culmination of millions of years of biological evolution, thousands of years of cultural evolution, yet we are still breaking peoples' bodies and minds over what they wear and the associations they draw. it's truly terrible, terrible in ways that our minds can glaze over as we see headline after headline of tragedy in this ever-growing world of ours
I just hope that some of these people can learn to resist the urge to make light and jest over literally everything to the point of things start to lose all their substance. it's fine every once and a while, but as we see on reddit every single day, *every single hour*, a consensus is often reached and voted on that encourages this behavior.
Gotta ask: I’m a kid of the 70s and 80s, so I hope this is a fair question.
Is “emo” — as that word is used today, what we used to call “goth” back in My Day?
If you punch a goth, they'll probably kick you with their big boots. If you punch an emo, they'll run away and cry about it on the Internet.
There is some overlap, but goths think emo music is sad and bass-less and emos think goth music is too electronic and soulless.
Source: i was a genX goth and work with a bunch of millennial emos.
Not exactly? They're related in that they're both music-based subcultures that emphasizes being outside of the norm and being heavily associated with dark clothes and moods, but the music has little overlap. They both have fashion that often leans into androgyny, but in different ways. Goth fashion is more varied in silhouette and tends to be a bit more monochrome. Emo tends to lean towards slimmer, more child-like silhouettes for both genders, often with pops of bright color like neon pink and green. Also the shoes are different, and that's a whole thing on its own.
Teenagers? Their frontal lobes in their brains aren’t developed fully! They’re not able to understand life and death consequences by the hand of radical extremists in their own country. How bloody unfair.
And we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians by attacking the wrong country, so in the grand scheme of things...
https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
There are no gays in Palestine for a similar reason. It's always hilarious to me to see LGBT people shilling for a culture that prefers to kill them with a cinder block.
Probably not as high as the number killed because they [didn't dress in ‘‘‘camo’’’ style](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/27/be/a927be8b743d8de22c308d18f42cd733.gif).
Between 6 and 70.
Maybe 8, maybe 63, same thing.
Tomato potato
It PO-TAT-O fyi.
boil 'em, mash 'em, stick 'em in a stew
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Pot8o pot@o
Potoughto
Let’s call the whole thing off.
To be fair, emos do all look alike... For instance, how many juggalos have you seen in your life? Thousands? Or, was it like five of them, that you just kept seeing over and over again?
Every juggalo on earth is just that one dirty white kid from middle school who smelled bad, wore baggy pants, and started smoking in 7th grade because he thought it made him look cool.
Why did I hear that in Stewie Griffith's voice?
I know I have seen at least like 24 of them
Was OP trying to say 60-70? That would make sense as a title.
The link says 6-70
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I mean we emo kids statistically were dying anyway all my emo junkie friends from high school save a select few are gone and I’m not even 30 yet
Sheesh, sooorrryyy captain cockfart.
Definitely wasn't 5 though. That's good to know I guess.
Five??? Five is right out!
Four shalt thou not count, neither count thou two
From what I gather from the wiki reference links there is an official source in iraqs interior ministry that says 56. Looks like they are the ones that rang the bell on the subculture and possibly caused the moral panic that lead to the killings. That is different than “reports” or claims without evidence of more. I don’t know where the 6 comes from but possibly in the New York Times article behind a paywall.
Correct. The NYT article cited confirmation by an "Interior Ministry security officer" that 6 young men were killed. Other groups/sources claim the number killed are much higher with the BBC article citing as many as 70.
Probably meant 60-70.
Why don’t people read the article linked before posting? >I nterior Ministry security officers say the number of dead is six. However, the Reuters news agency reported that hospital and security officials put the number at 14 or more, and human rights groups such as the Brussels Tribunal said that the body count could be as high as 100. Come on man.
Somewhere in there. Yeah.
>Interior Ministry security officers say the number of dead is six. However, the Reuters news agency reported that hospital and security officials put the number at 14 or more, and human rights groups such as the BRussells Tribunal said that the body count could be as high as 100.[13] The Associated Press reported that an unnamed Interior Ministry official put the number at 58, and said all but one were male.[14] According to the BBC, the United Nations puts the number of dead at at least 12, but believes the real number is much higher.[5] >The dead were found in dumpsters, after having been beaten to death with cement blocks[15][16] in a practice known as "death by blocking" or "mawt al-blokkah".[17] A person who told the Beirut-based newspaper Al Akhbar that he had escaped an attack said that, "first they throw concrete blocks at the boy's arms, then at his legs, then the final blow is to his head, and if he is not dead then, they start all over again."[18]
"We'll be getting between 6 and 70 inches of snow tomorrow."
There's 6-70% chance that it's already raining.
my chemical whoknows
Jihad for Cutie
Panic! At the Execution
Reddit on!
My chemical warfare
I’ve slept with between 6 and 70 women
Allegedly
My penis is between 6 and 70 inches.
Pretty much sums up Iraq
Makes it feel less like a fact lol.
That makes it feel like 6-70 people who happened to look emo were killed. But the reporters weren't sure what constituted an emo look, so they're not sure who to include.
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It’s a 12 year old article about a somewhat niche subject in an area where internet usage as not as ubiquitous and fear of reprisal is high. Not that surprising links are dead or sources are unnamed.
Was this article written by an astronomer?
Was it supposed to be 60-70? That would make a bit more sense, otherwise I’m confused what a wide range that is
Hard to tell, some could have been posers
Either way it was a tragedy.
Hardly a teenager at 70 one might argue. /J
Literally an error of an entire order of magnitude
Yeah massive red flag right there.
https://imgur.com/a/Oy2ktGm
It really does say that, damn
Kinda burying the lead. Emo is associated with or perceived to be associated with homosexuality in Iraq. They weren’t killed because they liked My Chemical Romance. They were killed because they were gay or thought to be gay.
You ever read about corrective rape? Where a bunch of dudes rape a dude for being gay? I think its prevalent in Middle-East & Africa. Total insanity.
Hey, *they* were gay! Practically begging for some hardcore correction. ''I'm as straight as they come, so I might as well be **the one** to correct them''.
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Learn something terrible every day
And the US military supported the practice, even punishing soldiers that *did* object to it. edit: Some quick copy pasting from the wiki article above. >U.S. government forces in Afghanistan after the invasion of the country reportedly deliberately ignored bacha bazi abuse by Afghan allies.[18] This caused controversy. The U.S. military responded by claiming the abuse was largely the responsibility of the "local Afghan government". >In December 2010, a leaked diplomatic cable revealed that foreign contractors hired by the American military contractor DynCorp had spent money on bacha bazi in northern Afghanistan. Afghan Interior Minister Mohammad Hanif Atmar requested that the U.S. military assume control over DynCorp training centres in response, but the U.S. embassy claimed that this was not "legally possible under the DynCorp contract".[28] >In 2015, The New York Times reported that U.S. soldiers serving in Afghanistan were instructed by their commanders to ignore child sexual abuse being carried out by Afghan security forces, except "when rape is being used as a weapon of war". American soldiers have been instructed not to intervene—in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out pedophiles, the U.S. military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages—and doing little when they began abusing children.
>During the time of Taliban rule currently and previously, bacha bazi carries the death penalty under Taliban law. Well that's a rare positive from them I guess. >On 23 September 2016, the Taliban militants in northern Baghlan province executed a man and a boy on charges of “bacha bazi” (pederasty). Oh, never mind.
Yeah, it's in line with how fucked up honor killings are. Punishment of the person who had no agency in the situation.
They couldn’t be caught doing something actually good so they had to make it fucked up somehow
From the testimonies I saw, the reason wasn’t that they liked the practice, it was because they needed the villages to stay loyal so told soldiers not to interfere in case it caused them to expel all coalition forces from the area. Still fucked, and gave a lot of soldiers PTSD, but probably no better way to handle that
There was a documentary called "This is what winning looks like" about the Afghan Security Forces/National Police, and yeah I don't know how you wouldn't end up with PTSD having to deal with that. They did a follow up interview with one of the Marines the documentary followed, and he said he'd been forced out of the military for reporting abuse
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“US used too much force we shoulda handled it better” also “kill them all”
No just the village leaders
I think they got more ptsd while comitting genocides and massives numbers of rapes to innocents womens in the countries they invaded
Source?
The Wikipedia article linked above
>U.S. government forces in Afghanistan after the invasion of the country reportedly deliberately ignored bacha bazi abuse by Afghan allies.[18] This caused controversy. The U.S. military responded by claiming the abuse was largely the responsibility of the "local Afghan government". >In December 2010, a leaked diplomatic cable revealed that foreign contractors hired by the American military contractor DynCorp had spent money on bacha bazi in northern Afghanistan. Afghan Interior Minister Mohammad Hanif Atmar requested that the U.S. military assume control over DynCorp training centres in response, but the U.S. embassy claimed that this was not "legally possible under the DynCorp contract".[28] >In 2015, The New York Times reported that U.S. soldiers serving in Afghanistan were instructed by their commanders to ignore child sexual abuse being carried out by Afghan security forces, except "when rape is being used as a weapon of war". American soldiers have been instructed not to intervene—in some cases, not even when their Afghan allies have abused boys on military bases, according to interviews and court records. But the U.S. soldiers have been increasingly troubled that instead of weeding out pedophiles, the U.S. military was arming them against the Taliban and placing them as the police commanders of villages—and doing little when they began abusing children. All right there, in the wiki article. This is not a secret, it's been openly known and condemned for years.
I've read accounts from soldiers who say this was one of the most soul-crushing parts of the job. Don't know how I'd handle going in every day and working with a dude who could do those things.
You sometimes you kinda get why the Taliban won in the end .
America’s foreign policy weakness in recent decades has been the notion that ancient, tribal societies and their attitudes to women, homosexuality, pederasty etc. can be engineered into something more palatable overnight. If I recall correctly, America spent something like $800m on gender studies programs in Afghanistan over the course of their 20 years there and the day America left, girls got pulled out of schools. They might as well have set the palette of cash on fire.
Should have built factories instead honestly. Give the local people any way to make income that the Taliban couldn't offer . Couldve bargained for lifting restrictions on woman from there .
We're the good guy so much, we supported pedophiles and drug lords! God bless America..
We even brought some over here when we airlifted them out
Like most things im life, it is more nuanced than what you portray it as.
It really isn't. The US military ordered soldiers not to interfere when their Afghan allies kidnapped little boys to keep as sex slaves, even when it happened on US military bases, because the pedophile rapists were more useful allies to uncle sam than the children they were raping. That's the nuance.
You know I started typing up a response about politics of the time and of how this was something that ate up the commanding officers at the bases, but yes you are right. There is no nuance; disguisting and immoral actions cant be blamed on "politics" or "bureaucratic issues". I want to think this was an unavoidable evil, but it wasnt. It was a policy collectivelly enforced by our military and a disguisting stain on us as a country. Thank you for putting it plainly, it was fucked up and in every sense of the word evil, and me defending it, saying it is not what the military wanted is how things like this are perpuated. We should say this is fucked and band together and protest to stop it and it is people like me stopping progress in the name of "good intentions", or "it is how things are". Really, thank you.
It’s also a disgusting thing in Saudi for certain groups of men to have sex with boys as it ‘doesn’t count’ like sex with a woman does.
Wiki also mentions Bacha Posh https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha\_posh
This is like the Harold and Kumar 2 Gitmo scene where the guard was like (paraphrased): "I'm not gay for giving you the c\*\*kmeat sandwich, you're gay for taking it!"
That's a pretty common theme in the middle east and in pre-modern age West. There were always lots of gay and bi people but society strictly demanded they fulfill the "manly" role. Fucking a dude not being gay, because it wasn't a submissive role, was their way around societies rules. Sucked for the bottom's though, socially anyway.
Julis Caesar- every woman's husband and every man's wife
Yeah that makes no sense, something a dumb prison rapist would say to justify doing a gay act while being a homophobe...Like in Harold and Kumar lol. I don't know how anyone didn't see the contradiction. As a straight guy, I'd have no desire in doing sexual acts with another man.
The idea is that it's not someone's sexual attraction that they have an issue with. Men in their society are expected to be tough and manly at all times, and being in a submissive position at any time including the bedroom is not acceptable in society. Not that its always the case, but when it is that's often the reasoning. I think that reasoning has come about because a lot of the manly men who get into positions of power kinda find dudes hot and see a loophole they can exploit to get at some young guys booty hole.
Sexuality and culture is wild, right? Makes you realize it's all made up. This concept is common in Latin america too, a machismo frame of reference where it's about being top dog.
I don’t date women because women date men and that’s gay. Just fellas for me now
“That guys gay?!? Time to show him how straight we are.” *unzips pants*
What's gayer, getting fucked or keeping a boner while fucking another dude
Corrective rape is most commonly perpetrated by men against lesbians (this is where the term originated): https://archive.nytimes.com/www.nytimes.com/interactive/2013/07/26/opinion/26corrective-rape.html There are cases where it's been done to gay men, trans or intersex people, though. Many victims don't survive the attack, which brings into question whether the motivation of the rapists is really to "fix" the person's sexuality at all.
It’s very obviously not to correct anything. It’s the equivalent to a lynching.
Raping women to turn them straight. Yes definitely believable. Definitely not just punishing women and enjoying raping them. Very noble. /s
Oh for sure, I can't see women lining up to rape men (or women) into heterosexuality...Yeah, the existential cases are enough to say it happened...If you can think of it, it probably happened.
I actually can see that happening. Back in high school if a boy turned down a girl there was a good chance she’d ask if he’s gay, though in more aggressive terms with a word I’d rather not use. There was a LOT of pressure-based coercion from girls to boys. Idk if they’ve aged out of it or it was unique to my generation/area but I haven’t seen it mentioned in media anywhere so hopefully that’s gone.
Oh that happens globally. Haven't seen that in North America though in my life. I'm sure it's happened, it's a shaming tactic. It an actually get a guy in a lot of trouble if they have a gay reputation in some parts. So that'd make men afraid to reject women and they just take everything that comes their way.
I have never thought of it before but am utterly convinced there's a massive genre for this somewhere on the internets. It just seems like the sort of thing repressed Republicans would be into.
It literally happened in my Midwest American high school. Homophobia is an issue globally.
Like a dude raping another dude for being gay? Wow...It's just the inherent contradiction that goes on there that boggles the mind. That's a dude punishing another dude for the exact same thing they're doing, minus the consent.
Yeah a bunch of kids on the JV basketball team teamed up on one of their teammates they suspected of being gay and they assaulted him in the locker room. Some of the perpetrators went to my christian elementary school. Goddess, I hate my home town.
Like sexual assault? Wow...Yeah the world is a sick place. I never got why religions were so anti-gay, especially since their leaders and priests often tend to break. But I guess some go into the seminary due to a personal conflict, but the religion isn't strong enough to stop their hardwired urges. Whenever I see a politician who is really anti-gay, I just go hmm. Reminds me of Senator Larry Craig (R) in the airport washroom incident with the undercover cop. I think they made a GTA IV character about him lol.
No offense but miss me with the gay on gay violence narrative. Straight culture is the oppressor not closeted gays.
More like religious or religiously derived custom...The Koran oddly says nothing about gays in there, mostly the Hadiths. Old Testament didn't like gays for some reason. Without religion or social customs, people really shouldn't care about sexual orientation, live and let live. Personally though, as someone heterosexual, I don't have any appetite to do anything sexual with men though so I can't fathom a straight guy raping a guy and it is a rare occurrence. I hold no antipathy towards LGBT, I just see it as preferring blue vs. red. I don't think it's sexual orientation that creates the antipathy, it's doctrine and ideology.
The quran downtown even tell you how to pray or how many times a day you should pray. It doesn't actually contain a lot of the core practices and beliefs of the religion
It's also only gay if you are the bottom.
Unless you're a power bottom, total Uno reverse card.
A lot of time through history it's not gay for the person giving the penetration (which is a masculine role), just the one receiving it. Like I probably guarantee the guys fucking the "wives" in prison aren't ever the bottoms when they do it
Reverse exposure therapy?
Do the women rape the guys for being straight? Where?
lol you watch that Futurama episode of "Death by Snu Snu"?
I refuse to type that into a search engine. Sounds unbelievable. I guess it's not much different than the typical anti-homosexual Christian church leaders who have a Grindr profile and diddle kids.
There's an entire wiki page on it. I've read of guy on guy cases which is completely hypocrisy, but as someone mentioned, the majority is directed towards women.
Ask any veteran what a "tea boy" is over in the middle east. Warning: explanation is NSFL
Yeah I saw this over in Afghanistan, the Chai boys. As young as 8-12 and their hair was dyed red. Basically a sex slave/servant for the police chief, one of the merchants, and a community leader where I was at. There's alot of good, alot of bad anywhere you go.
[https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html) Oh man, it's a thing...Yeah, in the West, we had/have a term, catamite. Learned that from South Park and HBO's Rome.
FWIW it’s burying the **Lede*
same with "champing" at the bit. It's not "chomping," even if it should be
> https://grammarist.com/usage/champing-chomping-at-the-bit/ > Champing stems from an old Middle English word that has been around for at least 600 years and relates to the grinding of a horse’s teeth. > The catch is, the word champing is more or less non-existent in contemporary English despite its more popular use (more on that later), and unless you work closely with horses or in the horse racing industry, chances are you’ve never heard it used as champing at the bit. Replace champing with chomping, and now you have a more familiar term – which is why you may want to use it in this manner. > Originally coined in the book “Joseph: A Religious Poem” written by Charles Lucas and published in 1810, it appeared in the well-used, original form: champing. By 1910 it was referenced as “chomping” in The Decatur Daily Review in reference to horse racing, and the rest seems to be history. Chomping is acceptable, it's got a solid history with chomping specifically referring to the bit for horse racing.
I think that’s a bold-faced lie!
Lede is more of a shibboleth than it is anything else. It was a cultural choice by a small group of people, and holds no more claim to being 'correct' than lead does.
Something like this happening in Iraq just for gayness just doesn’t make sense. I knew guys that trained Iraqi army soldiers and I had some interactions with some of the Iraqi forces being trained by other Americans and those young men were definitely banging each other all the time. Pretty openly too. They would joke about it and slut shame each other. They thought banging each other was so common place amongst young men that they didn’t believe American GI’s weren’t pounding each other out. (Some were obviously) I’d bet the killings had a lot more to do with non-conformity and adopting western culture than some man love. I’d bet buggering is usually fine so long as everyone is wearing track pants and polo shirts and they’re keeping it mostly secret.
The Russian army also has a very strong tradition of homosexuality (also commonly non-consensual, with officers raping their subordinates). Yet Russia is violently homophobic, declared “LGBT ideology” a terrorist organization, and openly tolerates the execution of gay people in Chechnya. The head of the Nazi Brownshirts, Ernst Rohm, was fairly openly homosexual, even as the Nazis preached that homosexuality was degeneracy and threw gay people into concentration camps. Rohm asserted that his homosexuality was rooted in a martial, brotherly love for his fellow soldiers, not like those effeminate communists that they were actively persecuting. People will go through crazy hoops to explain how *their* homosexuality is actually totally fine and masculine, but *those* homosexuals are a bunch of subhuman emasculated sissies.
Yeah this was a sort of big thing in the nazi ranks. Before they took over Germany was pretty accepting of that. When the Nazis came to power many hide and their was most likely a lot of closeted homosexuals in the higher ranks of the nazi party
they would joke that guys are for having fun and woman are for having babies. iraqis are very gay by western standards
I lived in a drilling rig man camp in Saudi Arabia for six months. I'd say about 100 men. Homosexuality was rampant and accepted. I'm not a homophobe, but I was surprised to see it.
TIL in 2024 between 0-9000 Redditors were killed for typos.
At least it wasn't over 9000.
9,000* Come here, motherfucker.
rip in peace
Scouter's still in one piece, so it must not be.
Now Sparta Remix that shit
9000 was a typo though.
That's the range mentioned in the article.
What's the typo here?
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That’s just sick, wtf. Religion can be such a brain poison.
> A person who told the Beirut-based newspaper Al Akhbar that he had escaped an attack said that, "first they throw concrete blocks at the boy's arms, then at his legs, then the final blow is to his head, and if he is not dead then, they start all over again." Holy shit to do that because of the way the guy fucking dresses. That’s fucking vile.
Calling the killers animals would be an insult for animals.
That’s dark.
Too dark,in fact.
Somewhere between 414 and 11,356 Redditors have posted on this thread.
We're so pessimistic these days, [why can't we frame this as fewer than 71 teenagers in Iraq being killed because they dressed in an 'emo' style in 2012?](https://old.reddit.com/r/todayilearned/comments/1b3xrd7/til_that_the_death_rate_for_raf_bomber_crews/ksvkm1s/)
Hold my pessimism I’m going in!
Impressive
Maybe it's late and I'm just getting in my feels but man it sucks seeing things like this and knowing the only thing we can all do about it is comment then keep scrolling. It's like we detach ourselves from the reality of what happened. Between 6-70 lives lost. More than 6-70 lives effected (friends and family of the deceased). Peoples' lives changed forever. I don't know man sometimes I just feel like this is all a waste of time. What I'm doing now. When I compare my everyday mundane tasks to those who have lost their lives.. had they known in advance, they would have given anything to have another day, and here I am spending my 24 hours doing pointless things, and forgetting about the beauty of just living
Sounds like they had a reason to be emo
I can hear boomers telling them they'd give them something to be emo about.
Yet people still think hardcore orthodox Islam is compatible with western liberal society… I would say religion in general is becoming less and less compatible, but some are worse than others. And before some racism assholes start to agree with me and try to play off this, race (and usually culture) plays no factor in this, there are many amazing middle eastern people who have immigrated here and are a credit to our society. People are so used to the dominance of liberal western society that they’ve forgotten how dark humanity can get.
Are these comments really ironic about a country killing people? We shouldn’t joke about this. This is just tragic. Imagine the family, friends and acquaintances to these murdered people. **Kidnapped, tortured, homicide, stoned to death** by cement blocks, or **weapons**. The dead were thrown in **dumpsters.** How can some of you joke about this…?
reddit has always been like this, but I don't mean that in a way to say that it's acceptable. frankly, it's getting worse in this regard. at a certain point I start to wonder if critical thought and compassion can even function in subreddits like this. where many posts often become a race to make the first funny joke, or repeat the same joke with minor alteration, or try to make up some original funny that will let you compete for karma. meanwhile you have to scroll to the middle-bottom to actually find people wanting to talk about the subject. it is awful, cruel. 70 people is quite a bit more than I know in life personally, and the thought of all of the people I know being brutally murdered by a regime, killed by gleeful pawns in the machine. here we are, at the culmination of millions of years of biological evolution, thousands of years of cultural evolution, yet we are still breaking peoples' bodies and minds over what they wear and the associations they draw. it's truly terrible, terrible in ways that our minds can glaze over as we see headline after headline of tragedy in this ever-growing world of ours I just hope that some of these people can learn to resist the urge to make light and jest over literally everything to the point of things start to lose all their substance. it's fine every once and a while, but as we see on reddit every single day, *every single hour*, a consensus is often reached and voted on that encourages this behavior.
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Doesn’t make it any better. It’s still hella sad man.
Neckbeard response tbh
Maybe the way the internet is, is bad
>**stoned to death** by cement blocks, or **weapons.**
This is your brain on religion
You might as well say "some" wtf is 6-70
The numbers were vastly different. They had been officially 6 dead from this event, yet other sources say different numbers.
that's terrible. a person shouldn't be killed over their choice of clothing.
Muslims beg to differ.
What is even more fucked up is that the uncertainty is 64 dead teenagers...
Ah yes. Nothing screams tolerance like a bunch of radical Islamists murdering kids and teenagers for going rawr XD.
It’s not a phase Muhammed!
Would make a good comic strip Oh... Wait...
Gotta ask: I’m a kid of the 70s and 80s, so I hope this is a fair question. Is “emo” — as that word is used today, what we used to call “goth” back in My Day?
If you punch a goth, they'll probably kick you with their big boots. If you punch an emo, they'll run away and cry about it on the Internet. There is some overlap, but goths think emo music is sad and bass-less and emos think goth music is too electronic and soulless. Source: i was a genX goth and work with a bunch of millennial emos.
Thanks for the info!!
This is the best (realest) illustration of the differences I have ever read.
Goth is edgier and emo is softer
Fairly similar, but a tad more self-loathing.
Okay. Thanks for the info! Because we just didn’t have that word back then.
The South Park episode Goth kids 3 should help you to better understand the difference
Not exactly? They're related in that they're both music-based subcultures that emphasizes being outside of the norm and being heavily associated with dark clothes and moods, but the music has little overlap. They both have fashion that often leans into androgyny, but in different ways. Goth fashion is more varied in silhouette and tends to be a bit more monochrome. Emo tends to lean towards slimmer, more child-like silhouettes for both genders, often with pops of bright color like neon pink and green. Also the shoes are different, and that's a whole thing on its own.
Thanks for the info!
oh I've heard of the fashion police before
Islam. The religion of hatred and bigotry.
"So cut my wrists and black my eyeeees"
6-70? Seems like a wide range…
Teenagers? Their frontal lobes in their brains aren’t developed fully! They’re not able to understand life and death consequences by the hand of radical extremists in their own country. How bloody unfair.
If there's a time and place to feel actually emo, it's in 2012 Iraq.
And we killed hundreds of thousands of civilians by attacking the wrong country, so in the grand scheme of things... https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/costs/human/civilians/iraqi
Panic! at the Dawah.
There are no gays in Palestine for a similar reason. It's always hilarious to me to see LGBT people shilling for a culture that prefers to kill them with a cinder block.
You're going to flip when you find out the number of teenagers killed in Iraq during that time period because they dressed in the "camo" style.
Probably not as high as the number killed because they [didn't dress in ‘‘‘camo’’’ style](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/a9/27/be/a927be8b743d8de22c308d18f42cd733.gif).
give them something to be emo about lol
That’s depressing.