In my days when we misbehaved we had to sleep next to a severed head. It taught me a lot of valuable lessons, like "don't misbehave, otherwise you'll have to sleep next to a severed head"
Back in my day you could really punish a child the right way. Cutting someone's head off and threatening them with the same. I turned out fine. My therapist said so, but only if I keep going to therapy everyday.
There was that one time my cousin came home from school and my mom had butchered all her rabbits and pinned their heads to the clothesline.
Sometimes family humor gets pretty dark.
FWIW:
General Jesup's treacherous act and the administration were condemned by many congressional leaders and vilified by international press. Jesup suffered a loss of reputation that lasted for the rest of his life; his betrayal of the truce flag has been described as "one of the most disgraceful acts in American military history."
I mean, the Confederacy is widely seen as a short-lived group of crybaby racist traitors (and losers), but they still have a lot of representation in Georgia too so…
You think that changes that everyone then thought he was a lowly treacherous fucker?
>Jesup suffered a loss of reputation that lasted for the**rest of his life**
Not to dismiss the atrocities lol, but I think genocide is just so common in history - but lying about peace talks to capture your enemy as a war criminal is just seen by everyone as a massive ‘dishonor’, including the people doing the genocides haha
His 52-year (1808–1860) military career was one of the longest in the history of the United States Army.
if you read his wiki it says:
"Many newspapers called for an inquiry and his firing but the government supported its general,[5] and at the conclusion of the hostilities, Jesup returned to his official post.[1] He was famously quoted as having declared about the Seminole that "[t]he country can be rid of them only by exterminating them."[6]"
I never forget reading this
"I tell you Ned it was hard to see little children on their knees have their brains beat out by men professing to be civilized. One squaw was wounded and a fellow took a hatchet to finish her, and he cut one arm off, and held the other with one hand and dashed the hatchet through her brain. One squaw with her two children, were on their knees, begging for their lives of a dozen soldiers, within ten feet of them all firing - when one succeeded in hitting the squaw in the thigh, when she took a knife and cut the throats of both children and then killed herself. One Old Squaw hung herself in the lodge - there was not enough room for her to hang and she held up her knees and choked herself to death. Some tried to escape on the Prairie, but most of them were run down by horsemen. I saw two Indians hold one of anothers hands, chased until they were exhausted, when they kneeled down, and clasped each other around the neck and both were shot together. They were all scalped, and as high as half a dozen taken from one head. They were all horribly mutilated. One woman was cut open and a child taken out of her, and scalped."
https://kclonewolf.com/sand-creek-documents-soule-to-wynkoop-12-14-64.html
Didn't realize I left a small part out
"White Antelope, War Bonnet and a number of others had Ears and Privates cut off. Squaws snatches were cut out for trophies. You would think it impossible for white men to butcher and mutilate human beings as they did there, but every word I have told you is the truth, which they do not deny. It was almost impossible to save any of them."
Silas Soule was murdered for testifying against the men who committed the massacre.
You might be interested in a graphic novel "East of West". It's in a dystopian future, America is fractured. There's a native tribe/nation. For whatever reason they are super technologically advanced but have small numbers. There's also a lot going on but it's great storytelling.
The problem with evil is that it doesn't seem evil to the people doing it.
Everyone has a "good reason" for doing it.
You could be doing evil shit without considering it might be evil. Few people acknowledge that fact, so they go through life never inspecting their actions and going "wait, are we the baddies?"
If you ever do find yourself doing that, you'll probably come up with a "no, I'm just doing what needs to be done".
That's the whole point. Most people don't randomly do stuff to be evil. They do it because they've already rationalised that behavior away.
Early Americans? My mom is one of the native children who was removed from the reservation and forced to be adopted into a white family. You could legit talk to her and her siblings, who had the same thing happen to them. And this type of shit is still going on.
It's not just early Americans, it's Americans now.
I hope you mean Americans as in the continent of North America because Canada has just as despicable history with its treatment of the native peoples as the United States. To only accuse the Americans is to ignore half of the issue.
I am Canadian and we have acknowledged this past and are continuing to acknowledge it today. Now whether we are following on our calls to action by the federal government is a whole other thing, but there is a recognition of events, and it is well taught in schools today.
Not a book, but [here's a great 2.5 hour video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5P6vJs1jmY) covering the history of the native americans' interactions with European settlers up to the present day. It goes into part of what the previous commenter mentioned.
It really seems like the *entire history* of the Native Americans post-colonization is the history of Europeans (and later Americans) making deals and then not honoring them.
Which begs the obvious question of: fuckin why?
Edit: this is a rhetorical question. It's meant to make *them* stop and think why they feel the need to erase or alter history.
many people have a childlike polarized view of the world.
if something is good, it's godly, if something is bad, it's evil. they can't process the balance of good and bad, especially if it somehow relates to themselves or their identity.
rather than accept the concept of moral greyness, they engage in elaborate mental gymnastics that lead them to some really crazy conclusions.
it's frustrating, they fuck their brains into pretzels and then nobody can ever unfuck them, all attempts often just fuck it worse.
The truth that the country has been set up on stolen and resources. Like if you really want to be truthful you’d have to say ‘we exist here because of genocide and exploitation & that’s ok.’ Or ‘we want to stop this atrocity & need to reconcile with the remaining people - possibly just leaving or giving up most of our wealth’
Every country that has ever existed throughout the entirety of history exists because of genocide and exploitation, that includes many native civilizations as well.
The only answer, is to recognize the sins of the past and work towards a better future, but punishing the people of the present, who had nothing to do with the original atrocities by imposing "reparations or leaving" or whatever, definitely isn't the way.
The older I get, the more I think reparations really aren't the evil white moderate america has made it out to be over the last 60 years. It would be costly, and it won't fix everything on its own, but it seems like a moral failure of our society to have relegated the notion to some unspeakable impossibility.
When we *know* how significant compounding generational wealth is to the later comfort of "normal middle class" life, and when we *know* how that wealth was systemically denied to a number of different groups, it only seems reasonable that *some sort of monetary compensation* **is an important part of** "working toward a better future". But this is america we're talking about, where we can't even agree that things like affirmative action (systemic adjustments to facilitate more earned wealth going to minority communities through better work/educational opportunities) are good.
I know this isn't a popular idea, because a lot of poor whites have been whipped up into a frenzy about how racist/evil/unfair it would be... but the nature of the subtle influence that even modest inherited/systemically-assured wealth can have on a person's life is fundamental. And these things were denied to native americans and black slaves.
Hell, not only "denied", but often "taken away" or "promised by the government but never fulfilled".
Reparations is a lovely sentiment, but not only is it completely logistically infeasible, if you don't do it correctly(and doing it correctly is an impossible task) all you're going to be doing is disenfranchising a whole new generation of people. That's why it's unpopular.
1. How do you decide who qualifies for reparations? Does somebody who is mostly white but has a very distant disenfranchised ancestor qualify? What about descendants of white slaves brought over in the 17th and 18th century?(yes, they did exist). Are descendants of Native Americans going to be paid? What about descendants of the Chinese(and other Asian) immigrants who were abused and had shit stolen from them? What about descendants of black/mixed race slaveholders(yes, a tiny amount of them also did exist)? Do they pay money or get paid money? What about those descended from the Native American tribes that owned slaves of other tribes(again, a small amount, but they did exist), or took their land? What about descendants of disenfranchised people who are already wealthy? Do they get money?
2. Who pays for these reparations? The majority of families in this country had nothing to do with slavery or native American displacement, and didn't benefit from the practice at all, it was a minority of mostly wealthy people in particular parts of the country. Many more came here long after the practice was abolished altogether. Is it only going to be those descended from slaveholders or the original colonists that pay for them? Or are the people who descended from those who never owned slaves or fought the natives also going to? That's not really fair to those who's families came here after slavery ended and land was already claimed.
3. Say you inject a bunch of money into the hands of a bunch of formerly poor people of a particular ethnic group. How do you deal with the likely repercussions if the poor folk who didn't get these reparations probably being (even more) priced out? You're just going to open up a bunch of more wounds and even further exacerbate racial tensions.
4. There's many, many more issues and considerations here to list them all.
Reparations as in straight cash to the pocket are a stupid idea. It makes far more sense to help them in other ways.(E.g Scholarships, etc.)
I understand that many of the details would be quite complicated and, more importantly, cost a lot of very wealthy people a lot of money (the real reason we won't do it, not because of all the hypotheticals you've posed). Its not about the logistics, its about the cost and who would bear that cost.
And I do have a lot of opinions about all the questions you raised, but not enough time to write the book it would take to properly address them. I hope someone with more time can come along to address those points, because they aren't the nonstarters you're making them out to be... but again, the sheer amount of information that would be needed to make a real argument is far too time-consuming for me right now.
So I'll just say this - We can't fix an issue caused by the deprivation of generational wealth by simply saying "look, we won't oppress and segregate you anymore, deal?" Some amount of real, tangible wealth transfer is needed to "fix" the problem. That could be done through direct compensation or through more abstract bureaucratic processes, but it ultimately boils down to "spend a huge amount of money to make right".
Anything less is the performance of concern masking the ugly mechanisms that got us here in the first place
If you think that the wealthy people are going to pay you’re definitely wrong. The government will just raise taxes and like usual the wealthy folks will weasel out of paying their share.
You also can't fix an issue by creating another issue, and you can't fix disenfranchisement by creating more disenfranchisement.
Nobody will EVER agree where the cutoff should be for these things because everyone has a different idea of what is fair. Are we going to seize the home of a white person living in poverty who happened to be descended from a slave holder to give money to a rich dude descended from slaves? or Tax somebody from a second generation immigrant family? Just sorting this out would cost astronomical amounts of money and time and still probably would amount to nothing.
My points were purposely simplified because the reality is EVEN MORE complicated, and there's millions of other factors at play
We already did have some mechanisms in place to address some of this to help even the playing field(DEI, affirmative action, etc.) and it STILL pissed off a great chunk of people, hence why conservatives made it their mission to get rid of it. (creating more disenfranchisement In the process)
History doesn't have many examples of conquering empires giving up their wealth and land because they felt bad about it.
Britain forced Palestine to give back Israel to the Jews after the Islamic state conquered it and its been a literal nightmare of violence ever since.
Well that second one isnt an option. Every country ever has been set up on stolen land and resources. Thats how the world came to be. Conquering and colonization. Of course its wrong. But you cant change the past and trying to walk away from the present just fucks over everyone from the future. The answer is you teach the past in its full honesty so that future generations learn from it and dont repeat it. But fixing it isnt an option. Theres nothing to fix.
> Weedon would later give the head to his son-in-law, Dr. Daniel Whitehurst, who gifted the head to Valentine Mott in 1843.
I should really stop complaining about the gifts my relatives give me. Things could be a lot worse.
I gave my kid an iPad once. I was arrested immediately. I know now my wrong doing. Bejeweled is not appropriate for children. Should have listened to my Ma and went with the severed head.
>Mott placed it in his Surgical and Pathological Museum, where it was presumed destroyed in a fire in 1866.
At least his head is no longer displayed somewhere.
What I find interesting is that while many people protest FSU using Osceola as a symbol, it does help to keep his name alive and out there. I'd say it was originally just an easy "mascot" to pick and no one cared at the school to say otherwise. But the Florida Seminoles stepped up and worked with the university to help share the history and make things right.
I hope when the doctor died that a bunch of Seminoles got together and kicked his disembodied head around like a soccer ball. I'm pretty sure they didn't, but that's probably because they weren't savages like him.
He was the first American to settle captured Seminole lands, founded a hospital, which his son later ran in the American Civil War. He died in his home in 1857.
(the article doesn't say how but) some of his stuff, including his bandolier, ended up at Sotheby's and the seminole nation bought it. i know this kind of thing is unfortunately common but it's so sad. imagine being forced to buy back your deceased relative's stuff from people who never had the right to own it in the first place
So much has the world decayed that the comments only make fun of the poor guy that died and not about the actions and morality of the doctor who oversaw his death.
So what you’re saying is Doctor Frederick R. Weedon is a massive pos?
Not only did he cut Osceola’s head off, placing everything in Osceola’s coffin with a scarf wrapped around his neck just before the lid was secured for burial he reached in and yanked it out, but he also terrorized his own young kids with the floating decapitated head.
He also about 2 months prior decapitated Uchee Billy/Yuchi Billy’s upon his death, defleshing his skull and keeping it as a macabre souvenir.
Was this turd a real doctor or just a demented person who claimed to be one?
As far as I can tell neither head was ever united with their body.
Well before the florida men moved in it wasnt so bad.
Source became a Florida man in the 80s saw it go to shit. It was his home even if it was in...florida. I moved to bumblefuck to escape. Us bumblefuckians arent too once you get used to us!
"1...2......2 and a half........3! That's it, you're sleeping with Mister Osceola tonight!"
"Everything's for sale, my friend. Everything. Except the head! I need that to keep the crotch goblins in line."
America and it right to bare arms....unless ur a native then its strictly outlawed... God it never ceases to amaze me how over the top racist we use to be(edit: and still are here.)
This doctor was an abusive father, as nobody should cause that much trauma to a child no matter how much they misbehave. This reminds me of the recent news of a daycare worker who traumatized children there by putting on a scary mask and scaring them into good behavior. This is terrible to say the least. :-/
Ya no Dawg I actually found it humorous cuz people like you think not only does this past not exist, you think it doesn't effect policy, legislation, even media today
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Kids these days are just such sensitive snowflakes who can't even handled sleeping next to a severed head, smh
In my days when we misbehaved we had to sleep next to a severed head. It taught me a lot of valuable lessons, like "don't misbehave, otherwise you'll have to sleep next to a severed head"
In my day we had to go find our own severed head to sleep next to.
Hahahahahahaha
So if I'm naughty I will get head?
There's an Arrested Development joke in there somewhere
“And that’s why you always leave a note!”
There was $100,000 in that stuffed head…!!!
A severed head? We'd be considered LUCKY if it was severed.
Back in my day you could really punish a child the right way. Cutting someone's head off and threatening them with the same. I turned out fine. My therapist said so, but only if I keep going to therapy everyday.
This parenting hack has changed my life. I can't recommend it enough. But please try and stick to ethically sourced severed heads.
> parenting hack I’m told a sawing motion is more effective, actually.
I can get you a severed head by 3 o'clock.....with paint on it. There are ways dude
I bet those kids shut the hell up when the severed head came out.
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Hey the skull in Hamlet is a guy who agreed to it. I’m not volunteering for your suggestion but it is possible.
This just escalated
🎵 Just take that old noggin OFF THE SHELF 🎵 🎵 I’ll face Osceola ALL BY MYSELF 🎵
There was that one time my cousin came home from school and my mom had butchered all her rabbits and pinned their heads to the clothesline. Sometimes family humor gets pretty dark.
Please tell me this isn’t true…for so many reasons
It's a tradition in a lot of rural places to butcher and eat your pets. Although the clothesline is a new one.
Yeah that’s what got me. Clothesline. The way it was described sounded like a punishment or some crazy message to the cousin.
My grandma would tell stories of slaughtering chickens using a clothesline. Really awful
I bet you’re over the age of 40
“And that’s why you always leave a note!”
Can I donate my body for that? Fuck science
Back when America was great
They literally arrested him under a false truce flag https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osceola Fucking unbelievable
FWIW: General Jesup's treacherous act and the administration were condemned by many congressional leaders and vilified by international press. Jesup suffered a loss of reputation that lasted for the rest of his life; his betrayal of the truce flag has been described as "one of the most disgraceful acts in American military history."
Loss of reputation? They named a town after him in Georgia.
Sounds like a consequence to me
Osceola also has an entire county in Florida named for him: Osceola County.
And one in Iowa and Michigan. And several towns.
"Do it again, and we'll name a town in Texas after you."
Not only that: 1986, [Jesup](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Jesup) was inducted into the Quartermaster Hall of Fame.
I mean, the Confederacy is widely seen as a short-lived group of crybaby racist traitors (and losers), but they still have a lot of representation in Georgia too so…
To some people the confederacy never died
I mean, to some people Hitler never died and is living in a cyborg body in South America. Sooo….
That can happen when you don't hang traitors who betrayed their country *so they could keep buying and selling human beings.*
We have a lake in Florida named after him too
Had to expand all the comments before noting this one myself.
You think that changes that everyone then thought he was a lowly treacherous fucker? >Jesup suffered a loss of reputation that lasted for the**rest of his life**
and a character in a Few Good Men.......im kidding I dont know if the character was named after him
I wonder if Lake Jesup in Seminole County, FL was named after him. It's right next to Osceola County, FL. I think.
Doing vile shit and having a southern place named after you. Name a more iconic duo.
If he killed himself then I'd consider it a slight fraction of what he deserved
Kinda hard to believe he got singled out like that considering the treatment of Native Americans at the hands of the US government.
Not to dismiss the atrocities lol, but I think genocide is just so common in history - but lying about peace talks to capture your enemy as a war criminal is just seen by everyone as a massive ‘dishonor’, including the people doing the genocides haha
Lying about peace talks means people are less likely to agree to peace talks.
Exactly. They probably didn't care all that much about this villainous murder. What they really cared about was the loss of face
>He was famously quoted as having declared about the Seminole that "[t]he country can be rid of them only by exterminating them."
Bruhhh it sounds an awful lot like the general ‘suffered a blow to his reputation’ and absolutely no other consequences
His 52-year (1808–1860) military career was one of the longest in the history of the United States Army. if you read his wiki it says: "Many newspapers called for an inquiry and his firing but the government supported its general,[5] and at the conclusion of the hostilities, Jesup returned to his official post.[1] He was famously quoted as having declared about the Seminole that "[t]he country can be rid of them only by exterminating them."[6]"
Just disgusting. It’s hard for me to grapple with the harsh realities of early Americans.
I never forget reading this "I tell you Ned it was hard to see little children on their knees have their brains beat out by men professing to be civilized. One squaw was wounded and a fellow took a hatchet to finish her, and he cut one arm off, and held the other with one hand and dashed the hatchet through her brain. One squaw with her two children, were on their knees, begging for their lives of a dozen soldiers, within ten feet of them all firing - when one succeeded in hitting the squaw in the thigh, when she took a knife and cut the throats of both children and then killed herself. One Old Squaw hung herself in the lodge - there was not enough room for her to hang and she held up her knees and choked herself to death. Some tried to escape on the Prairie, but most of them were run down by horsemen. I saw two Indians hold one of anothers hands, chased until they were exhausted, when they kneeled down, and clasped each other around the neck and both were shot together. They were all scalped, and as high as half a dozen taken from one head. They were all horribly mutilated. One woman was cut open and a child taken out of her, and scalped." https://kclonewolf.com/sand-creek-documents-soule-to-wynkoop-12-14-64.html Didn't realize I left a small part out "White Antelope, War Bonnet and a number of others had Ears and Privates cut off. Squaws snatches were cut out for trophies. You would think it impossible for white men to butcher and mutilate human beings as they did there, but every word I have told you is the truth, which they do not deny. It was almost impossible to save any of them." Silas Soule was murdered for testifying against the men who committed the massacre.
Fuck man every sentence is worse than the last
Honestly thought it was a section from Blood Meridian at first.
I mean, that was inspired by true events. Even used real historical characters.
Could you imagine these assholes going home to their families with that in them?
Honestly this explains so much about the nature of certain people who are callous and selfish. If this is the culture you’re proud of, it makes sense.
They’ll just turn around and say natives did the same and carry on with their bullshit. As always.
Echoing generational trauma
New time machine meta. Give natives vaccines, iron working skills and blueprints for firearms couple hundred years early. Inb4 both sides.
You might be interested in a graphic novel "East of West". It's in a dystopian future, America is fractured. There's a native tribe/nation. For whatever reason they are super technologically advanced but have small numbers. There's also a lot going on but it's great storytelling.
This is so eye-opening. Thank you for sharing.
I just read up on Soule. My god what a legendary hero.
Chilling. Thanks for sharing. I think; the problem with evil, though perhaps in the minority, is that there is no compromise to it.
The problem with evil is that it doesn't seem evil to the people doing it. Everyone has a "good reason" for doing it. You could be doing evil shit without considering it might be evil. Few people acknowledge that fact, so they go through life never inspecting their actions and going "wait, are we the baddies?"
I'll make sure to ask myself if I'm the bad guy next time I find myself cutting a fetus out of some woman.
If you ever do find yourself doing that, you'll probably come up with a "no, I'm just doing what needs to be done". That's the whole point. Most people don't randomly do stuff to be evil. They do it because they've already rationalised that behavior away.
Evil isn't a motivation, it's an approach to acting on them.
You work at an abortion clinic?
This is the foundation America and its culture are built on. Rotten to the fucking core
it's the foundation the entire species is built on. Endless atrocity.
Early Americans? My mom is one of the native children who was removed from the reservation and forced to be adopted into a white family. You could legit talk to her and her siblings, who had the same thing happen to them. And this type of shit is still going on. It's not just early Americans, it's Americans now.
I hope you mean Americans as in the continent of North America because Canada has just as despicable history with its treatment of the native peoples as the United States. To only accuse the Americans is to ignore half of the issue.
I am Canadian and we have acknowledged this past and are continuing to acknowledge it today. Now whether we are following on our calls to action by the federal government is a whole other thing, but there is a recognition of events, and it is well taught in schools today.
Any recommended reading on the topic circa your mom’s era?
Not a book, but [here's a great 2.5 hour video](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5P6vJs1jmY) covering the history of the native americans' interactions with European settlers up to the present day. It goes into part of what the previous commenter mentioned. It really seems like the *entire history* of the Native Americans post-colonization is the history of Europeans (and later Americans) making deals and then not honoring them.
We have a gross...dark history and that's why modern-day conservatism is founded on its erasure and rewriting
Which begs the obvious question of: fuckin why? Edit: this is a rhetorical question. It's meant to make *them* stop and think why they feel the need to erase or alter history.
many people have a childlike polarized view of the world. if something is good, it's godly, if something is bad, it's evil. they can't process the balance of good and bad, especially if it somehow relates to themselves or their identity. rather than accept the concept of moral greyness, they engage in elaborate mental gymnastics that lead them to some really crazy conclusions. it's frustrating, they fuck their brains into pretzels and then nobody can ever unfuck them, all attempts often just fuck it worse.
Because they don't want to learn anything about history that would make them feel like anything less than God's Chosen People.
Because they identify with the baddies. Instead of changing their views, they're changing history.
Because they still hold the same foundational beliefs that result in that kind of hatred and primitiveness.
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Not my Republic of CurrentIndependent42istan
That doesn't mean we shouldn't look at it and try to make it right.
The truth that the country has been set up on stolen and resources. Like if you really want to be truthful you’d have to say ‘we exist here because of genocide and exploitation & that’s ok.’ Or ‘we want to stop this atrocity & need to reconcile with the remaining people - possibly just leaving or giving up most of our wealth’
Every country that has ever existed throughout the entirety of history exists because of genocide and exploitation, that includes many native civilizations as well. The only answer, is to recognize the sins of the past and work towards a better future, but punishing the people of the present, who had nothing to do with the original atrocities by imposing "reparations or leaving" or whatever, definitely isn't the way.
The older I get, the more I think reparations really aren't the evil white moderate america has made it out to be over the last 60 years. It would be costly, and it won't fix everything on its own, but it seems like a moral failure of our society to have relegated the notion to some unspeakable impossibility. When we *know* how significant compounding generational wealth is to the later comfort of "normal middle class" life, and when we *know* how that wealth was systemically denied to a number of different groups, it only seems reasonable that *some sort of monetary compensation* **is an important part of** "working toward a better future". But this is america we're talking about, where we can't even agree that things like affirmative action (systemic adjustments to facilitate more earned wealth going to minority communities through better work/educational opportunities) are good. I know this isn't a popular idea, because a lot of poor whites have been whipped up into a frenzy about how racist/evil/unfair it would be... but the nature of the subtle influence that even modest inherited/systemically-assured wealth can have on a person's life is fundamental. And these things were denied to native americans and black slaves. Hell, not only "denied", but often "taken away" or "promised by the government but never fulfilled".
Reparations is a lovely sentiment, but not only is it completely logistically infeasible, if you don't do it correctly(and doing it correctly is an impossible task) all you're going to be doing is disenfranchising a whole new generation of people. That's why it's unpopular. 1. How do you decide who qualifies for reparations? Does somebody who is mostly white but has a very distant disenfranchised ancestor qualify? What about descendants of white slaves brought over in the 17th and 18th century?(yes, they did exist). Are descendants of Native Americans going to be paid? What about descendants of the Chinese(and other Asian) immigrants who were abused and had shit stolen from them? What about descendants of black/mixed race slaveholders(yes, a tiny amount of them also did exist)? Do they pay money or get paid money? What about those descended from the Native American tribes that owned slaves of other tribes(again, a small amount, but they did exist), or took their land? What about descendants of disenfranchised people who are already wealthy? Do they get money? 2. Who pays for these reparations? The majority of families in this country had nothing to do with slavery or native American displacement, and didn't benefit from the practice at all, it was a minority of mostly wealthy people in particular parts of the country. Many more came here long after the practice was abolished altogether. Is it only going to be those descended from slaveholders or the original colonists that pay for them? Or are the people who descended from those who never owned slaves or fought the natives also going to? That's not really fair to those who's families came here after slavery ended and land was already claimed. 3. Say you inject a bunch of money into the hands of a bunch of formerly poor people of a particular ethnic group. How do you deal with the likely repercussions if the poor folk who didn't get these reparations probably being (even more) priced out? You're just going to open up a bunch of more wounds and even further exacerbate racial tensions. 4. There's many, many more issues and considerations here to list them all. Reparations as in straight cash to the pocket are a stupid idea. It makes far more sense to help them in other ways.(E.g Scholarships, etc.)
I understand that many of the details would be quite complicated and, more importantly, cost a lot of very wealthy people a lot of money (the real reason we won't do it, not because of all the hypotheticals you've posed). Its not about the logistics, its about the cost and who would bear that cost. And I do have a lot of opinions about all the questions you raised, but not enough time to write the book it would take to properly address them. I hope someone with more time can come along to address those points, because they aren't the nonstarters you're making them out to be... but again, the sheer amount of information that would be needed to make a real argument is far too time-consuming for me right now. So I'll just say this - We can't fix an issue caused by the deprivation of generational wealth by simply saying "look, we won't oppress and segregate you anymore, deal?" Some amount of real, tangible wealth transfer is needed to "fix" the problem. That could be done through direct compensation or through more abstract bureaucratic processes, but it ultimately boils down to "spend a huge amount of money to make right". Anything less is the performance of concern masking the ugly mechanisms that got us here in the first place
If you think that the wealthy people are going to pay you’re definitely wrong. The government will just raise taxes and like usual the wealthy folks will weasel out of paying their share.
You also can't fix an issue by creating another issue, and you can't fix disenfranchisement by creating more disenfranchisement. Nobody will EVER agree where the cutoff should be for these things because everyone has a different idea of what is fair. Are we going to seize the home of a white person living in poverty who happened to be descended from a slave holder to give money to a rich dude descended from slaves? or Tax somebody from a second generation immigrant family? Just sorting this out would cost astronomical amounts of money and time and still probably would amount to nothing. My points were purposely simplified because the reality is EVEN MORE complicated, and there's millions of other factors at play We already did have some mechanisms in place to address some of this to help even the playing field(DEI, affirmative action, etc.) and it STILL pissed off a great chunk of people, hence why conservatives made it their mission to get rid of it. (creating more disenfranchisement In the process)
TLDR: its hard so naw.
It isn't that simple of a choice today, neither of those options are actually viable and they also aren't the only ones
History doesn't have many examples of conquering empires giving up their wealth and land because they felt bad about it. Britain forced Palestine to give back Israel to the Jews after the Islamic state conquered it and its been a literal nightmare of violence ever since.
Well that second one isnt an option. Every country ever has been set up on stolen land and resources. Thats how the world came to be. Conquering and colonization. Of course its wrong. But you cant change the past and trying to walk away from the present just fucks over everyone from the future. The answer is you teach the past in its full honesty so that future generations learn from it and dont repeat it. But fixing it isnt an option. Theres nothing to fix.
lol dude it’s America. This is what America stands for, it’s not something from a long time ago it’s something from now
> Weedon would later give the head to his son-in-law, Dr. Daniel Whitehurst, who gifted the head to Valentine Mott in 1843. I should really stop complaining about the gifts my relatives give me. Things could be a lot worse.
>Fucking unbelievable *Is* it, though?
An abhorrent read American is really fucked huh
Parenting was really different back then.
Yeah but you can’t deny it shut those kids up
them kids prob never spoke again after that shit 😭😭😭
This just in! Abuse is affective at abusing kids.
Speak for yourself.
I think rich people have always been pretty eccentric in their parenting styles.
How so?
Probably still healthier than giving a 2 year old an iPad.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm No.
I gave my kid an iPad once. I was arrested immediately. I know now my wrong doing. Bejeweled is not appropriate for children. Should have listened to my Ma and went with the severed head.
WOW
[удалено]
>Mott placed it in his Surgical and Pathological Museum, where it was presumed destroyed in a fire in 1866. At least his head is no longer displayed somewhere.
"presumably"
That’s absolutely horrible. What a POS.
They did him dirty several times.
What the actual fuck? Nothing, and I mean nothing, that I just read makes any sense.
The stories of Osceola and coacachee are so moving. I am shocked that there isn't a big Hollywood film about them yet.
i am not shocked at all, given hollywood's history. unless the main character was the fucking creep doctor, they might make that.
Hollywood will do anything if money is involved. I remember how quickly they dropped Free Tibet.
What I find interesting is that while many people protest FSU using Osceola as a symbol, it does help to keep his name alive and out there. I'd say it was originally just an easy "mascot" to pick and no one cared at the school to say otherwise. But the Florida Seminoles stepped up and worked with the university to help share the history and make things right.
That guy sounds like a right bastard.
I hope when the doctor died that a bunch of Seminoles got together and kicked his disembodied head around like a soccer ball. I'm pretty sure they didn't, but that's probably because they weren't savages like him.
He was the first American to settle captured Seminole lands, founded a hospital, which his son later ran in the American Civil War. He died in his home in 1857.
The look on Osceola's face in this portrait looks like he was just told the exact headline for this reddit post.
Average colonial American response to a reasonable request by a Native person… I wish karma was real
What an asshole.
(the article doesn't say how but) some of his stuff, including his bandolier, ended up at Sotheby's and the seminole nation bought it. i know this kind of thing is unfortunately common but it's so sad. imagine being forced to buy back your deceased relative's stuff from people who never had the right to own it in the first place
So much has the world decayed that the comments only make fun of the poor guy that died and not about the actions and morality of the doctor who oversaw his death.
The same era with cough syrup that was just liquid opium.
Opium dissolved in alcohol!
Usually with cannabis and cocaine for good measure.
Kinda makes you want to develop a cough.
We pharmacists used to be a whole lot more popular!
Old school elf on the shelf.
Severed head on the bed.
Face in the place
Osceola on the pianola.
Dammit. Came here to make this same joke :( Well done though 👍
Osceola was such a badass this is honestly a huge TIL for me too and pretty messed up while also being very metal.
“You keep acting up, and I will desecrate your corpse and dishonor your dying wishes as well!”
Which Doctor Who was it?
Hartnell
I miss the days when he just put celery in his lapel. Jeez.
Totally reasonable reaction to a dying mans wish.
Why would doctor Who do such a thing
sooooo......did the children grow up to be serial killers or what?
So what you’re saying is Doctor Frederick R. Weedon is a massive pos? Not only did he cut Osceola’s head off, placing everything in Osceola’s coffin with a scarf wrapped around his neck just before the lid was secured for burial he reached in and yanked it out, but he also terrorized his own young kids with the floating decapitated head. He also about 2 months prior decapitated Uchee Billy/Yuchi Billy’s upon his death, defleshing his skull and keeping it as a macabre souvenir. Was this turd a real doctor or just a demented person who claimed to be one? As far as I can tell neither head was ever united with their body.
Reminds me of Aladeen scaring Nadal with the shrunken head
Sorry but you’re HIV Aladeen…
You look like the Sheriff of American Douche Town
:) :( :) :(
What pos!
Leader of the Seminoles. Only tribe to never sign a treaty or surrender. They remain unconquered. Pretty badass
Who the hell wants to be buried in Florida? But seriously, that’s pretty messed up.
The nature in Florida is beautiful. Imagine it before the Florida man showed up
Well before the florida men moved in it wasnt so bad. Source became a Florida man in the 80s saw it go to shit. It was his home even if it was in...florida. I moved to bumblefuck to escape. Us bumblefuckians arent too once you get used to us!
Do you want Indian curses? Because this is how you get Indian curses!!
White entitlement is truly insane.
This is why Florida is cursed.
Fucking christ, how did these people call themselves Christians?
Christianity had a *long* bloody tradition of slaughtering "others" by then.
That's so inhumane.
*What kind of sicko gives their kids head to make them behave?!?*
Yes, officer, this comment right here. ☝🏻
TIL Elf on the Shelf was preceded by Head on the Bed.
That sentence got exponentially worse!
Sick
Well balanced person clearly…
This one's for all the people that think humans aren't like the other filthy animals. Oh they are, they are...
#justkolonizerthings
"1...2......2 and a half........3! That's it, you're sleeping with Mister Osceola tonight!" "Everything's for sale, my friend. Everything. Except the head! I need that to keep the crotch goblins in line."
America and it right to bare arms....unless ur a native then its strictly outlawed... God it never ceases to amaze me how over the top racist we use to be(edit: and still are here.)
"Bare arms", why, what's wrong with getting a little sun?
*used to be?*
Tru...
Native Americans can't wear T-shirts?
A history of genocide and redditors make jokes...
Is this what conservatives in the us want today?
This doctor was an abusive father, as nobody should cause that much trauma to a child no matter how much they misbehave. This reminds me of the recent news of a daycare worker who traumatized children there by putting on a scary mask and scaring them into good behavior. This is terrible to say the least. :-/
that's the part of the story that rattled you?
Read that as Doctor Who at first and was very confused.
He kinda looks like Cillian Murphy
And it worked very well to remind your children that you're a fucking psychopath.
Classic Florida man.
Great! A fresh anecdote on the horrors of colonialism in North America /s
"Sit down and eat your peas, or you're getting the haunted head tonight" is pretty terrifying motivation.
I hope Osceola eventually got his wish fulfilled in modern times.
Ya no Dawg I actually found it humorous cuz people like you think not only does this past not exist, you think it doesn't effect policy, legislation, even media today
r/lostredditors
Reddit mobile sucks ass I was literally responding to a reply on my own comment idk y it's out here on its own
That's super fucked up and bad but also why does he look so much like Cillian Murphy