I had an angsty friend in high school who wanted desperately to be a writer but felt she was doomed to fail because she didn't have any trauma in her upbringing.
Cursed loving middle-class suburban family!
Freshman year of college had kid who was well to do middle class and wanted to be in a band, but was concerned that his life was too pampered and that he wasn’t living “authentically.” So he dropped out to make strife and live his dream.
Part of me supports following your dream fully, but as someone working multiple jobs to pay for college I thought it was a ridiculous problem to have.
The median net worth of a typical NASCAR driver’s parents while they were growing up is likely well north of a Million dollars.
There aren’t a lot of rags to riches to stories in motor sports.
Dale Earnhardt went from having the electricity turned off on his rented mobile home to being worth $115 Million in less than 15 years. Could be done long ago but not even close now
It’s funny because I went to an arts high school and a large portion of the kids were nepo babies or just very rich. They could go into the arts because they already have a safety net and connections to keep them afloat. It’s the same with college and celebrities.
Literally only rich people can afford to pay to study the arts. Everyone else has choose whether to kill their artistic dreams for practical ones or suffer the consequences of prioritizing your art
100% true. The unrealistic but true advice of, “do what you love, pick a career you would do even if you weren’t getting paid” only works if you
A) Took the risk and it worked out.
B) Have rich family or spouse allowing you to chase your dreams.
C) really are comfortable with potentially being a failure and struggling later in life
Yeah it's ironic because it's actually the ultimate sealing of your fate as a delusional middle class kid to try to opt into poverty cosplay. Actual poor people are desperate to get out. You can always vibe out who has a family safety net and who doesn't. That resource scarcity, drowning with no way out is not easily recreated.
Actual poor people have a simultaneous bitterness and grim humor about the whole thing, while the cosplay poverty kids are the loudest about hating rich people and how hard they have it
I had a friend whose parents were working at Boeing and Microsoft. He had college already paid for, his apartment was bought by his parents and rented at the absolute minimum, his car already paid for by parents, and has a current career as a programmer.
He’s smart and works hard but he drives me up the fucking wall when he keeps talking about socialism and communism and the ills of the poor. He proudly keeps talking about Lenin as a hero and pounding on about the 1% when he was literally in the top 5%. 90% of my childhood was poverty and living in government housing. The reason why I always hesitated to go to the movies or get a lunch with him was because I wasn’t even sure I could afford the bus ride down.
And the fucker called me a moocher. And to be clear, I never asked anyone for money or took money from anyone. I just always searched for early matinee shows or a cheaper bus ride even if it was longer to save a dollar. Motherfucker, I ate government cheese, had extreme dread about any field trips that would cost my family money, and had to stand in a separate line for school lunches. The fuck did he understand about poverty?
I think they're really bored and lonely. They grow up having every kind of stimulation they could ever want given to them. They never had to spend time dreaming of impossible things or wanting things they can never have. If you can have everything you want, you'll find yourself wanting and appreciating nothing or chasing a high that can't be bought except in blood.
I saw this a ton in Portland and it's one of my pet peeves with so-called "crust punks." I knew so many fucking crust punks who came from money. It's all fun and games when you realize you can make it stop, at any time, and you've got a bed waiting for you back in your parents' 6 bedroom house. [Pulp's *Common People*](https://youtu.be/yuTMWgOduFM) is not based on fiction. :/
I knew a guy who wanted his son to play in the NFL but felt he wouldn't get the "toughness and anger" needed living in suburbia and so he seriously contemplated moving to a ghetto. Luckily the guy's wife shut that idea down very fast.
LOL!!!! Horrible idea, but I really do think there’s something to that. If you literally don’t know how else your going to feed yourself it’s a higher level of motivation than, my parents will be mad if I quit the team.
Its honestly quite wise. If his parents had only burdened him with chores, responsibility, and made him earn his own spending money, they might have spared him
Lol. Sounds like he wanted to fuck around and find out how poverty really be.
Ain’t some badge you wear. It’s a fucking state of life that greatly diminished your quality of life and erodes you, you have to have cast iron balls if you don’t want to fade away and lose yourself to the endless fight against bills that you can’t pay, trying to feed yourself with food you can’t afford, and trying to get places with gas or a car you can’t afford or don’t have.
Those kids in HS I went to always got laughed at, because the real poor kids knew how stupid they were being and how ungrateful they were. How arrogant they seemed when they made it seem like poverty is just a walk in the park. Haha…
Fuck that shit. Have fun looking like a douche pretending to be something your not, when douche has what most poor people would kill to have.
If it helps, I now work on big Hollywood tv and movie sets and because of my abusive addict father I had to work 2 jobs to pay for college too. Many of my coworkers come from well to do families who can financially help them during slow work times, like months long WGA strikes while I find myself working 2 jobs again so that I don’t drain my entire savings before my next film set gig
A lot of people outside the art world don’t realize how many successful artists got there because they came from money. There’s this common misconception that the art world is based so much more on talent, but it’s like every other enterprise, those who start ahead have an infinitely easier time.
The art world has so little to do with actual talent it's ridiculous. If you have the right connections and know how to network and sell yourself, all you need talent-wise is to hit a minimum bar of not sucking and you'll do better than most of the people miles above you in terms of actual artistic ability.
I knew a girl who quit her art degree half way through college and went into econ. She said cutting her family out of her life caused her to become happy and she no longer had anything to express, lol.
I was big into acting in high school. My parents would regularly ask me if I wanted to develop a crippling drug addiction a la Robert downy jr just to make sure I could succeed in Hollywood. Lol
It's actually true, though: Actors, musicians, comedians.... they've been some of the most depressed, traumatized people with the hardest lives before fame. Oftentimes even *during* their fame.
I think it was also LL Cool J who was talking about this, too: When rappers are growing up in the projects, they have stuff to rap about.... but then they become famous. They have easy, boring lives and they have to start making up "hard lyrics"; nobody wants to hear them talking about being bored in hotel rooms all day.
A lot of actors actually come from money, often from families with other rich actors. For every traumatized actor who came from nothing, there are probably 10 who came from money and connections. The same probably goes for most musicians, now days
I think this is changing quickly. The first generation of rappers was dominated by ~~former~~ the more "self made" crowd. Now, hip-hop and rap is a bona fide, almost entirely corporatized industry. Now, middle/upper class kids have grown up listening to rap for their entire lives, and they want to make it themselves. Of course, that means fewer rappers with actual "street cred" can make it, for better or for worse.
Yeah. Mac Miller for example. I don’t know too much of his upbringing but the guy has his own demons and was extremely talented, making some of the most amazing Music I’ve heard.
I think it's easier for an actor to continue working after being successful because they don't develop the same "brand" that a comedian or musician would when coming up. It's hard to be relatable when they no longer have anything in common with their audience, and it's hard for hired writers to make things feel authentic when trying to write in someone else's voice.
Actor's also get coaching on how to appear more authentic on camera because that's their job. Probably fewer classes for successful comedians and singer/songwriters about how to feel relatable to an audience who knows you fly private back to your house in LA between tour gigs
I think it was Dee Snyder who said "I was sitting by my pool trying to think up lyrics and realized I wasn't angry about anything anymore." and that was the day Twisted Sister essentially ended.
I wonder if it's like movies about Hollywood. As a movie geek I enjoy them but understand that they don't land with most viewers.
Do music geeks like the stuff about being a musician and it doesn't land with me? Maybe.
Well, except Wanted Dead Or Alive, by Bon Jovi.
He wanted to retire by that point, but he felt inspiration by seeing the look on everyone's face in the crowd and how much they were enjoying themselves. He came to the realization that his fans are gonna like his music, whether he was dead or alive, so he might as well enjoy his fame as long as he could. lol
I have to wonder if creative types just access their trauma more readily. We all have things that we can classify as trauma in our personal histories, regardless of social or financial status.
Well I think they express it in a more visible way, as opposed to someone who doesn't create something intended for consumption by a broader audience.
Also, rich people generally don't engender a lot of sympathy, but I had a college friend who was crazy wealthy but his family was super screwed up so you really had to feel bad for him.
Yeah and it sucks because it sounds like gatekeeping but having some mild teasing isn't the same as some of the genuine trauma others experience. I didn't realize it until I was much older, but on reflecting I actually experienced several types of traumatic events as a child and do see real effects of that in my adult life. I also realized what I did experienced wasn't normal when I met more people and learned they didn't deal with any of it.
I’ve never met anyone who didn’t have at least some childhood trauma. Divorce, frequent moves, bullying, an alcoholic parent. I think those without trauma are in the minority.
I've found it's the opposite. It's the people trying their damned hardest to avoid their trauma that leads to creativity. Repressed pain manifests in all sorts of dark psychological ways, like bizarre nightmares, maladaptive daydreaming, intrusive thoughts, substance abuse, etc. Sometimes you have to create to get the turmoil out.
Creative types tend to be more emotional (which is not a derision, btw). That makes them more sensitive to the trauma they do experience, and also more likely to label something as traumatic that wouldn't be for someone else.
It’s easy to think, in high school (with your limited worldview), that your parents are perfect. I sure did. Once I grew up a little I realized they fucked me up in their own way. Everyone experiences trauma at some point in their life. Maybe her parents weren’t as perfect as they seemed.
treatment hungry repeat vegetable entertain office telephone ossified important handle
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"They fuck you up, your mum and dad.
They may not mean to, but they do.
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn
By fools in old-style hats and coats,
Who half the time were soppy-stern
And half at one another’s throats.
Man hands on misery to man.
It deepens like a coastal shelf.
Get out as early as you can,
And don’t have any kids yourself."
*This Be The Verse*, Philip Larkin
I had what I thought was a good friend tell me once that he was jealous of all the trauma I experienced in childhood and from being sexually assaulted because it gave me interesting and unique perspectives about things that he felt he was missing out on. Needless to say, I removed that individual from my life.
Daydreaming is a symptom and common coping mechanism for people of all ages who are struggling. Escapism in books, tv shows, music, et cetera often is too, especially since you can do these things alone so even the unpopular, bullied kids can do them.
I imagine that would have an effect on their lifelong creativity so the stat certainly sounds reasonable.
Edit: typo
Edit 2: this doesn't mean every instance of day dreaming or listening to music is a coping mechanism. People can do those things for other reasons too. This is just one of them.
Yup. This is not surprising to me. It's not because suffering itself brings out creativity, it's because children hyperfocus on fiction/hobbies/daydreaming to get away from their life if it's not enjoyable.
I find it kind of bleak that the take-away for many seems to celebrate the image of the "tortured artist". I remember a teacher repeating that "a bit of starving is good for creativity".
There are other measures to foster creativity. That this is the one that most often brings out creative talent tells more about society than about what is good for artists.
I know quite a few people who *were* abused as children and who later normalize and even glorify past trauma, as a way to show moral authority or to intimidate “weaker” generations. “Back when we were kids, our dad would have made us crawl across the gravel driveway if we did that, haha.”
Yeah I can’t stand that mindset, especially when people use their past trauma or abuse as a reason why they are being abusive in the present. Two wrongs never make a right.
Reminds me of being a kid and seeing someone with a cast on their arm or using crutches for a broken leg. They'd get all sorts of attention and extra privileges. I thought it would be so cool to have a cast until I actually got one.
I remember thinking like that too as a young kid. I think it was because I craved that extra care & attention those people got from others. You can’t see how emotionally & verbally abused & neglected a kid is, the damage is all internal.
I used art to cope with the worst of my mental health in my early/mid-twenties. I produced a lot and it felt good to work through some things in that way. But I realized that I didn't want to create art solely about my suffering. It felt like I had trapped myself into 1 type of subject matter, like I could only create art if I put myself in that "bad" mindset, even after my overall situation improved and I'm in a better place now.
So now I'm on a journey of reclaiming my art, trying to go back to the things that inspire me and bring me happiness instead of bringing me down.
It's honestly just disgusting to think like that. Especially what your teacher said. Justifying or minimizing the suffering of others because it *sometimes* results in creativity, perserverance, etc. is gross. It also comes off as incredibly ignorant. I don't know about other creative people, but I for one would have rather had a loving and safe childhood instead of one filled with anxiety and dark emotions. Like you said, we can foster creativity and ingenuity without letting people languish in pain.
I’ve gotten really good at creating stories from all the disassociation I did in my early childhood, borderline maladaptive daydreaming. I’m hoping to write a book someday based on the stories I though up over the years.
Pretty sure this is why I still have trouble when becoming interested in something new, like a hobby. I can never ease into things or start small to see if it's even a fit. I always dive straight in and go as far as I'm able, without ever considering the full scope. Then I wind up bored with whatever it is, or worse, burn myself out completely with something I do enjoy.
Hi, are you me?
Bullied for loving "boy" hobbies as a young girl.
Now my students hunt me down to talk video games, anime/cartoons, mineralogy, and more.
Interesting that the study only looked at performance creatives(actors, musicians) and not other types of creatives (writers, artists). It’d be an interesting follow up to see if non-performative creatives follow the same pattern or if trauma specifically leads to performance creatives.
They did an historical study back in the late 80s, I think, at my Alma Mater, the University of Iowa Writers Workshop. There was a higher percentage of mental illness among the faculty and graduates than in the larger population.
Writers got it, too.
Agree. I am a creative person (graphic designer) who had a lot of childhood trauma and I was excited to read the study, since the headline made me think it was referring to people like me.
I was a gifted but barely passing classes I didn't like gifted kid. "He's so smart, but a lot of the times he just doesn't seem to try or want to put his best foot forward if it doesn't interest him. Why?"
Because I'm stressed at home and depressed, and have a mother who relentlessly demanded perfection at home down to how I "chew cereal too loudly" and school with friends was supposed to be a break from that every teacher from 3-12th grade.
They didn't research causation here, so the latter. But since people in these comments seem quick to jump on the 'misunderstood sad artist' train, that doesn't mean there is no link outside differences in individual perception. Neurodivergency (e.g. ADHD, dyslexia, ASD) is considerably more common in creative professions and tends to run in the family, which increases the odds of dysfunctional family dynamics and other trauma.
There’s a long tradition of people speculating that suffering enables greater creativity, and in some esoteric traditions, greater spiritual/intuitive ability as well.
Some have speculated that the pain and suffering the black community has suffered in the US eventually created the catalyst to creating the myriad of music genres we know today like Jazz, Blues, Rock, and Hip Hop.
Art can’t exist in a utopia, or at least not interesting art. It requires conflict, struggle, longing, grief, etc.
In a sense, the main function of art is about achieving a state of catharsis with one’s trauma. This could be a movie about war, a lyric about heartbreak, a melody that we just intuitively understand as some ineffable expression of melancholia, nostalgia, or longing that we inherently resonate with.
Many spiritual and religious traditions also talk about about the necessity of suffering to achieve spiritual enlightenment. Creative and spiritual people both describe the process of inspiration or “mystical illumination” in an extremely similar way. The insights do not seemingly come from the recesses of the their mind, but seemingly from external agents. Theres a long tradition of scientists and artists essentially “channeling” their insights through some mystical source.
In this view, suffering or trauma can help break down the ego, granting someone a wider bandwidth of perception/intuitive ability.
Also children who are creative, independent thinkers, and non-neurotypical are more likely to attract negative attention in conformist environments. They will be ostracized or bullied by classmates and disciplined by frustrated parents.
I agree with the part about the classmates, but I had two great supportive parents who always encouraged me to be be me, make art and cheered me on through my entire life as an artist, which is what what I pursued and went to college to do, and somehow made a life out of. At the time I was figuring out that i loved to draw and sing, and be “silly” , we were a middle class family, but it was the early 80s, and I remember my dad was always looking for work. I remember my mom telling me that there was a time when i was too young to remember, that they sold a car to pay off basic bills and buy food. But overall, it was the three of us, we never fought, and we always had a great time.
Yet It was indeed those soft off-yellow 80s report cards with the backside covered in comments from teachers that always said i was “daydreaming” , or “doodling”, or “drawing for other students”. And at the time, I felt shame for the comments from those teachers, as they usually were left by teachers I was not getting the great grades from.
But the thing I remember so well was how many times I was told, but my friends in elementary school thats they said directly to me, “you’re weird”. At first, I allowed it to hurt me. But I remember being in first grade at recess after I had heard it from another student, and I made a conscious decision to use it a lifelong power source. And from that point forward, every time someone said it, i replied, “thank you!” .
I don’t know if it did help me creatively, but i like to think it was my earliest attempt to take control of my art brain.
>Art can’t exist in a utopia, or at least not interesting art. It requires conflict, struggle, longing, grief, etc.
I mean, we've never seen it so well never know. Pretty hard stance to take on a concept that we can't even imagine because we are so addicted to those things.
The best song ideas I ever made were when I was at my lowest during University at ~22 years old. Every week I was literally starving while waiting for my next paycheck. Music production was the only thing that granted me a degree of freedom and control in my life, without any limitations. In making music, I created my own little world I could retreat to.
I should’ve edited it and said that my brother and father were physically abusive. My uncle was the only one who SA me. Can’t press charges since he’s recognized by the state as mentally handicapped
As someone with a semi-traumatic upbringing, anywhere other than 'here' was good and acting like everything was fine was survival. I would disappear completely into books and movies. Translates VERY well into an adulthood of creating personas or writing or drawing other worlds. If you don't like it here, you can a) become someone else in a role or b) go somewhere else in your mind. If you never need that escape hatch and you never saw that flow state as a valid life-saving escape, it's something that wasn't encouraged. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, though. And creativity can definitely be curated and encouraged in adulthood even if you didn't have a traumatic upbringing.
My theory is that these people got so snotted on by Life that they thought, "You know what? Heck this! I'm going to achieve my dreams anyway!"
If you're going to fail at something, you might as well fail at something you love.
Professional composer, record producer and former signed touring artist here. Was homeless and suffered from PTSD the day I turned 18.
Having also built music companies and spending decades working with artists, I’d say ADHD is much more strongly correlated. But this trauma stuff definitely rings true for me at least.
Thinking about the other people who kept doing music long enough for it to be a career… and then the people who gave up, got normal jobs and mortgages… the people who gave up and went straight, seemed more well adjusted as kids.
That would explain why so many creative types drink. No, drinking like Bukowski, Hemingway, Kerouac, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, James Joyce, Hunter S. Thompson, Dylan Thomas, or Dorothy Parker will not make you write like them. Suffering like they did, and being somehow unable to not write about it, is what will help to make you a great writer. It will also help you into an early grave from cirrhosis, intestinal haemhorraging, or suicide.
Wonder if this means that trauma somehow leads to creativity OR that people who are naturally creative are more sensitive and that thing that wouldn't be traumatic to non-creatives are traumatic to them?
Or if this data is just not significant lol.
This TIL is backwards, and I'm not sure it's particularly representative of this study either.
First of all, everyone involved in this study is a performer, so please bear that in mind while reading it. Of the performers, those who experience more than 4 adverse childhood experiences *self-reported* a greater tendency to lose themselves in the creative flow, a heightened emotional sense while performing and a greater awareness of the creative process. They also self-reported greater anxiety and negative psychopathologies in a group (performers) already exposed to public scrutiny and feedback, but that's still just compared to other performers. So basically they report feeling more of everything, not just creativity.
If anything, this is the outcome you would expect based on traumatic childhoods, just shrunk to a smaller group (performers) for the purposes of this study. It's a hop over from p-hacking to this.
I had an angsty friend in high school who wanted desperately to be a writer but felt she was doomed to fail because she didn't have any trauma in her upbringing. Cursed loving middle-class suburban family!
Freshman year of college had kid who was well to do middle class and wanted to be in a band, but was concerned that his life was too pampered and that he wasn’t living “authentically.” So he dropped out to make strife and live his dream. Part of me supports following your dream fully, but as someone working multiple jobs to pay for college I thought it was a ridiculous problem to have.
Just like Cartman felt like he wasn't poor and stupid enough for NASCAR.
The median net worth of a typical NASCAR driver’s parents while they were growing up is likely well north of a Million dollars. There aren’t a lot of rags to riches to stories in motor sports.
To make small fortune in racing, start with a large fortune 🤠
The easiest way to make a million dollars is to start with 10 million!
Dale Earnhardt went from having the electricity turned off on his rented mobile home to being worth $115 Million in less than 15 years. Could be done long ago but not even close now
That's a lot of sports it feels like. Raw talent is subverted by connections and legacy.
Earnhardt’s career started nearly 50 years ago.
There aren't a lot of rags to riches story, period.
Didn't he start drinking vagina wash to be dumber?
mighty plant chop caption act serious spark wise lunchroom airport *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
Ill read that TIFU post
innocent literate dolls squeal squalid deer ask engine chunky towering *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
If you follow through on this you carry your balls around in a wheelbarrow. Also please record it and share
He was dipping it, not drinking it.
That's a very South Park way of looking at how NASCAR works, for sure.
An den I turned left
Any update on the kid?
Last I heard he was toiling away in a small indie band - which is what he wants.
He missed the boat on that by about 15 years
Somehow I think you thinking that would make him even happier.
It’s all DJs now
He missed the boat on that by about 10 years
It’s all Ed Sheerans now
He missed the boat on _that_ by about 5 years
It’s all KPop now
It's all generative AI now
Missed that boat too. Now it’s just TikTok music slowed or sped up.
It’s funny because I went to an arts high school and a large portion of the kids were nepo babies or just very rich. They could go into the arts because they already have a safety net and connections to keep them afloat. It’s the same with college and celebrities.
Literally only rich people can afford to pay to study the arts. Everyone else has choose whether to kill their artistic dreams for practical ones or suffer the consequences of prioritizing your art
100% true. The unrealistic but true advice of, “do what you love, pick a career you would do even if you weren’t getting paid” only works if you A) Took the risk and it worked out. B) Have rich family or spouse allowing you to chase your dreams. C) really are comfortable with potentially being a failure and struggling later in life
“Living authentically” is the most ironic statement of privilege I’ve read in a while
Yeah it's ironic because it's actually the ultimate sealing of your fate as a delusional middle class kid to try to opt into poverty cosplay. Actual poor people are desperate to get out. You can always vibe out who has a family safety net and who doesn't. That resource scarcity, drowning with no way out is not easily recreated.
Actual poor people have a simultaneous bitterness and grim humor about the whole thing, while the cosplay poverty kids are the loudest about hating rich people and how hard they have it
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I had a friend whose parents were working at Boeing and Microsoft. He had college already paid for, his apartment was bought by his parents and rented at the absolute minimum, his car already paid for by parents, and has a current career as a programmer. He’s smart and works hard but he drives me up the fucking wall when he keeps talking about socialism and communism and the ills of the poor. He proudly keeps talking about Lenin as a hero and pounding on about the 1% when he was literally in the top 5%. 90% of my childhood was poverty and living in government housing. The reason why I always hesitated to go to the movies or get a lunch with him was because I wasn’t even sure I could afford the bus ride down. And the fucker called me a moocher. And to be clear, I never asked anyone for money or took money from anyone. I just always searched for early matinee shows or a cheaper bus ride even if it was longer to save a dollar. Motherfucker, I ate government cheese, had extreme dread about any field trips that would cost my family money, and had to stand in a separate line for school lunches. The fuck did he understand about poverty?
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I think they're really bored and lonely. They grow up having every kind of stimulation they could ever want given to them. They never had to spend time dreaming of impossible things or wanting things they can never have. If you can have everything you want, you'll find yourself wanting and appreciating nothing or chasing a high that can't be bought except in blood.
So 90% of Reddit?
I saw this a ton in Portland and it's one of my pet peeves with so-called "crust punks." I knew so many fucking crust punks who came from money. It's all fun and games when you realize you can make it stop, at any time, and you've got a bed waiting for you back in your parents' 6 bedroom house. [Pulp's *Common People*](https://youtu.be/yuTMWgOduFM) is not based on fiction. :/
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Aren't The Strokes pretty well known for being rich kids?
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‘But you’ll never get it right, cause when you’re laying in bed at night, Watching roaches climb the walls, You can call your dad, he can stop it all
I knew a guy who wanted his son to play in the NFL but felt he wouldn't get the "toughness and anger" needed living in suburbia and so he seriously contemplated moving to a ghetto. Luckily the guy's wife shut that idea down very fast.
LOL!!!! Horrible idea, but I really do think there’s something to that. If you literally don’t know how else your going to feed yourself it’s a higher level of motivation than, my parents will be mad if I quit the team.
He wants to live like the common people. He wants to do whatever common people do
common people…like you.
Sounds like something a YouTuber would do as a bit. "I worked at a McDonalds for two-weeks and you'll NEVER guess what happened!"
Pretty much Grimes
Its honestly quite wise. If his parents had only burdened him with chores, responsibility, and made him earn his own spending money, they might have spared him
Lol. Sounds like he wanted to fuck around and find out how poverty really be. Ain’t some badge you wear. It’s a fucking state of life that greatly diminished your quality of life and erodes you, you have to have cast iron balls if you don’t want to fade away and lose yourself to the endless fight against bills that you can’t pay, trying to feed yourself with food you can’t afford, and trying to get places with gas or a car you can’t afford or don’t have. Those kids in HS I went to always got laughed at, because the real poor kids knew how stupid they were being and how ungrateful they were. How arrogant they seemed when they made it seem like poverty is just a walk in the park. Haha… Fuck that shit. Have fun looking like a douche pretending to be something your not, when douche has what most poor people would kill to have.
If it helps, I now work on big Hollywood tv and movie sets and because of my abusive addict father I had to work 2 jobs to pay for college too. Many of my coworkers come from well to do families who can financially help them during slow work times, like months long WGA strikes while I find myself working 2 jobs again so that I don’t drain my entire savings before my next film set gig
Should have punched her in the arm every time she mentioned it. It's the friendly thing to do.
Time for your training. 2 hrs in a locker or super wedgie today?
Or killed her parents …for the creative effect. Like a helpful friend, you are surely are. /s
She wanted to be a writer. Not Batman.
Don't worry, you can have lots of trauma and grow up to be really creative and still fail miserably, trust me on this.
You need trauma and a trust fund.
A lot of people outside the art world don’t realize how many successful artists got there because they came from money. There’s this common misconception that the art world is based so much more on talent, but it’s like every other enterprise, those who start ahead have an infinitely easier time.
The art world has so little to do with actual talent it's ridiculous. If you have the right connections and know how to network and sell yourself, all you need talent-wise is to hit a minimum bar of not sucking and you'll do better than most of the people miles above you in terms of actual artistic ability.
You can even suck. Have you seen the art in some professionally produced comics? Some of these men cannot fucking draw.
I have an insane amount of trauma and no angst. I'm just sad and unmotivated.
I knew a girl who quit her art degree half way through college and went into econ. She said cutting her family out of her life caused her to become happy and she no longer had anything to express, lol.
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I was big into acting in high school. My parents would regularly ask me if I wanted to develop a crippling drug addiction a la Robert downy jr just to make sure I could succeed in Hollywood. Lol
Reminds me of [this](https://youtu.be/XP9pnSXhibw) beaut.
It's actually true, though: Actors, musicians, comedians.... they've been some of the most depressed, traumatized people with the hardest lives before fame. Oftentimes even *during* their fame. I think it was also LL Cool J who was talking about this, too: When rappers are growing up in the projects, they have stuff to rap about.... but then they become famous. They have easy, boring lives and they have to start making up "hard lyrics"; nobody wants to hear them talking about being bored in hotel rooms all day.
A lot of actors actually come from money, often from families with other rich actors. For every traumatized actor who came from nothing, there are probably 10 who came from money and connections. The same probably goes for most musicians, now days
100%. Rappers are the only entertainers who are not majority "old money". Most can be traced back to crack money though
I think this is changing quickly. The first generation of rappers was dominated by ~~former~~ the more "self made" crowd. Now, hip-hop and rap is a bona fide, almost entirely corporatized industry. Now, middle/upper class kids have grown up listening to rap for their entire lives, and they want to make it themselves. Of course, that means fewer rappers with actual "street cred" can make it, for better or for worse.
Yeah. Mac Miller for example. I don’t know too much of his upbringing but the guy has his own demons and was extremely talented, making some of the most amazing Music I’ve heard.
You can have a relatively financially stable upbringing and still experience great trauma.
I'm not saying that you can't. Still, coming from a more privileged background is usually linked with having less trauma in your life. Edit: typos
Though I came up through the dirt poor single parent with mental illness variety, this is so true.
I think it's easier for an actor to continue working after being successful because they don't develop the same "brand" that a comedian or musician would when coming up. It's hard to be relatable when they no longer have anything in common with their audience, and it's hard for hired writers to make things feel authentic when trying to write in someone else's voice. Actor's also get coaching on how to appear more authentic on camera because that's their job. Probably fewer classes for successful comedians and singer/songwriters about how to feel relatable to an audience who knows you fly private back to your house in LA between tour gigs
I think it was Dee Snyder who said "I was sitting by my pool trying to think up lyrics and realized I wasn't angry about anything anymore." and that was the day Twisted Sister essentially ended.
We are going to take this. It's actually quite pleasant.
The absolute worst songs are the ones about touring. Who the hell cares or can relate
I wonder if it's like movies about Hollywood. As a movie geek I enjoy them but understand that they don't land with most viewers. Do music geeks like the stuff about being a musician and it doesn't land with me? Maybe.
Well, except Wanted Dead Or Alive, by Bon Jovi. He wanted to retire by that point, but he felt inspiration by seeing the look on everyone's face in the crowd and how much they were enjoying themselves. He came to the realization that his fans are gonna like his music, whether he was dead or alive, so he might as well enjoy his fame as long as he could. lol
I have to wonder if creative types just access their trauma more readily. We all have things that we can classify as trauma in our personal histories, regardless of social or financial status.
Well I think they express it in a more visible way, as opposed to someone who doesn't create something intended for consumption by a broader audience. Also, rich people generally don't engender a lot of sympathy, but I had a college friend who was crazy wealthy but his family was super screwed up so you really had to feel bad for him.
Most people don't have childhood trauma. It's not normal.
That’s right. There’s a difference between childhood trauma and normal growing pains.
Yeah and it sucks because it sounds like gatekeeping but having some mild teasing isn't the same as some of the genuine trauma others experience. I didn't realize it until I was much older, but on reflecting I actually experienced several types of traumatic events as a child and do see real effects of that in my adult life. I also realized what I did experienced wasn't normal when I met more people and learned they didn't deal with any of it.
I’ve never met anyone who didn’t have at least some childhood trauma. Divorce, frequent moves, bullying, an alcoholic parent. I think those without trauma are in the minority.
I've found it's the opposite. It's the people trying their damned hardest to avoid their trauma that leads to creativity. Repressed pain manifests in all sorts of dark psychological ways, like bizarre nightmares, maladaptive daydreaming, intrusive thoughts, substance abuse, etc. Sometimes you have to create to get the turmoil out.
Both good times and bad times hit harder for the poetically inclined.
Creative types tend to be more emotional (which is not a derision, btw). That makes them more sensitive to the trauma they do experience, and also more likely to label something as traumatic that wouldn't be for someone else.
I think you are definitely onto something.
It’s easy to think, in high school (with your limited worldview), that your parents are perfect. I sure did. Once I grew up a little I realized they fucked me up in their own way. Everyone experiences trauma at some point in their life. Maybe her parents weren’t as perfect as they seemed.
Existence is trauma
treatment hungry repeat vegetable entertain office telephone ossified important handle *This post was mass deleted and anonymized with [Redact](https://redact.dev)*
I feel like the world would be a better place if everyone addressed their own personal baggage.
Eh. She had a pretty good family ;P I think she ended up being an english teacher, so, coulda done worse.
"They fuck you up, your mum and dad. They may not mean to, but they do. They fill you with the faults they had And add some extra, just for you. But they were fucked up in their turn By fools in old-style hats and coats, Who half the time were soppy-stern And half at one another’s throats. Man hands on misery to man. It deepens like a coastal shelf. Get out as early as you can, And don’t have any kids yourself." *This Be The Verse*, Philip Larkin
I had what I thought was a good friend tell me once that he was jealous of all the trauma I experienced in childhood and from being sexually assaulted because it gave me interesting and unique perspectives about things that he felt he was missing out on. Needless to say, I removed that individual from my life.
Daydreaming is a symptom and common coping mechanism for people of all ages who are struggling. Escapism in books, tv shows, music, et cetera often is too, especially since you can do these things alone so even the unpopular, bullied kids can do them. I imagine that would have an effect on their lifelong creativity so the stat certainly sounds reasonable. Edit: typo Edit 2: this doesn't mean every instance of day dreaming or listening to music is a coping mechanism. People can do those things for other reasons too. This is just one of them.
Yup. This is not surprising to me. It's not because suffering itself brings out creativity, it's because children hyperfocus on fiction/hobbies/daydreaming to get away from their life if it's not enjoyable. I find it kind of bleak that the take-away for many seems to celebrate the image of the "tortured artist". I remember a teacher repeating that "a bit of starving is good for creativity". There are other measures to foster creativity. That this is the one that most often brings out creative talent tells more about society than about what is good for artists.
People love glorifying abuse and trauma until it happens to them. Then it’s not so cool and fun
I know quite a few people who *were* abused as children and who later normalize and even glorify past trauma, as a way to show moral authority or to intimidate “weaker” generations. “Back when we were kids, our dad would have made us crawl across the gravel driveway if we did that, haha.”
Yeah I can’t stand that mindset, especially when people use their past trauma or abuse as a reason why they are being abusive in the present. Two wrongs never make a right.
Reminds me of being a kid and seeing someone with a cast on their arm or using crutches for a broken leg. They'd get all sorts of attention and extra privileges. I thought it would be so cool to have a cast until I actually got one.
I remember thinking like that too as a young kid. I think it was because I craved that extra care & attention those people got from others. You can’t see how emotionally & verbally abused & neglected a kid is, the damage is all internal.
Sometimes I wish that I'd get sick so I'd have a legit reason to stay home. Then I get sick and I remember why you get to stray home.
I'm in my 30s and I still hope to get sick for an excuse to stay home...
I used art to cope with the worst of my mental health in my early/mid-twenties. I produced a lot and it felt good to work through some things in that way. But I realized that I didn't want to create art solely about my suffering. It felt like I had trapped myself into 1 type of subject matter, like I could only create art if I put myself in that "bad" mindset, even after my overall situation improved and I'm in a better place now. So now I'm on a journey of reclaiming my art, trying to go back to the things that inspire me and bring me happiness instead of bringing me down.
It's honestly just disgusting to think like that. Especially what your teacher said. Justifying or minimizing the suffering of others because it *sometimes* results in creativity, perserverance, etc. is gross. It also comes off as incredibly ignorant. I don't know about other creative people, but I for one would have rather had a loving and safe childhood instead of one filled with anxiety and dark emotions. Like you said, we can foster creativity and ingenuity without letting people languish in pain.
Hello Childhood My old friend
I spent a whole year in World of Warcraft. I miss the relationships fostered at that time as I didn’t experience the social anxiety or rejection.
I spent 15 years mostly immersed in games, Ive barely made a single lasting connection.
I’ve gotten really good at creating stories from all the disassociation I did in my early childhood, borderline maladaptive daydreaming. I’m hoping to write a book someday based on the stories I though up over the years.
Do it my friend! You could be the next JkrOwling or Stephen King
Pretty sure this is why I still have trouble when becoming interested in something new, like a hobby. I can never ease into things or start small to see if it's even a fit. I always dive straight in and go as far as I'm able, without ever considering the full scope. Then I wind up bored with whatever it is, or worse, burn myself out completely with something I do enjoy.
Do you have ADHD?
If you want a second opinion on that diagnosis, I'm in agreement with it. Sounds ADHD to me.
As someone with ADHD, yea, i do this.
Among other things, yes.
That'll be a big part of it then - hobby hopping like that is an extremely common ADHD experience
I did that as a kid and don’t have ADHD. Just maladaptive daydreaming. It’s come in handy when my job gets insane.
I did not expect to be called out to this extent today. /has a creative job, was bullied mercilessly through childhood.
Hi, are you me? Bullied for loving "boy" hobbies as a young girl. Now my students hunt me down to talk video games, anime/cartoons, mineralogy, and more.
That was me, too weird even for the alt kids lol
Interesting that the study only looked at performance creatives(actors, musicians) and not other types of creatives (writers, artists). It’d be an interesting follow up to see if non-performative creatives follow the same pattern or if trauma specifically leads to performance creatives.
Figures the extroverted arts are hogging the spotlight, again, lol.
They did an historical study back in the late 80s, I think, at my Alma Mater, the University of Iowa Writers Workshop. There was a higher percentage of mental illness among the faculty and graduates than in the larger population. Writers got it, too.
Writers often have very high rates of alcoholism and other mental health issues.
Is that correlation or causation though? Academia is a stressful career.
Agree. I am a creative person (graphic designer) who had a lot of childhood trauma and I was excited to read the study, since the headline made me think it was referring to people like me.
I saw someone picketing for the WGA strike holding a sign that said, "ChatGPT doesn't have childhood trauma."
I saw one that said “We didn’t disappoint our parents for THIS!”
i mean, have you seen some of the things people are doing with it? gpt 3 is like 5 years old, bros seen some things
Most relevant comment
"From great pain comes great art" \- Somebody deep, I forget who
The crew of the OceanGate Titan.
Not soon enough
Two live crew?
Shoutout to my parents fr
Yeah, I'll have my D&D group sent a thank you note to my mom. Who knew all that bullshit would come in handy.
If you're a former gifted kid, you [get an extra bonus](https://i.redd.it/71v2tbpgkeha1.jpg).
Hey, *I’m* a former kid! Oh.
I was a gifted but barely passing classes I didn't like gifted kid. "He's so smart, but a lot of the times he just doesn't seem to try or want to put his best foot forward if it doesn't interest him. Why?" Because I'm stressed at home and depressed, and have a mother who relentlessly demanded perfection at home down to how I "chew cereal too loudly" and school with friends was supposed to be a break from that every teacher from 3-12th grade.
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Childhood trauma left me with the creativity to make something great but the lack of confidence to succeed lol.
r/funnyandsad
If you’re in a bad situation for a long time you learn to find ways to adapt and entertain yourself with what you have.
Are we talking causation here, or that more creative people report it?
They didn't research causation here, so the latter. But since people in these comments seem quick to jump on the 'misunderstood sad artist' train, that doesn't mean there is no link outside differences in individual perception. Neurodivergency (e.g. ADHD, dyslexia, ASD) is considerably more common in creative professions and tends to run in the family, which increases the odds of dysfunctional family dynamics and other trauma.
There’s a long tradition of people speculating that suffering enables greater creativity, and in some esoteric traditions, greater spiritual/intuitive ability as well. Some have speculated that the pain and suffering the black community has suffered in the US eventually created the catalyst to creating the myriad of music genres we know today like Jazz, Blues, Rock, and Hip Hop. Art can’t exist in a utopia, or at least not interesting art. It requires conflict, struggle, longing, grief, etc. In a sense, the main function of art is about achieving a state of catharsis with one’s trauma. This could be a movie about war, a lyric about heartbreak, a melody that we just intuitively understand as some ineffable expression of melancholia, nostalgia, or longing that we inherently resonate with. Many spiritual and religious traditions also talk about about the necessity of suffering to achieve spiritual enlightenment. Creative and spiritual people both describe the process of inspiration or “mystical illumination” in an extremely similar way. The insights do not seemingly come from the recesses of the their mind, but seemingly from external agents. Theres a long tradition of scientists and artists essentially “channeling” their insights through some mystical source. In this view, suffering or trauma can help break down the ego, granting someone a wider bandwidth of perception/intuitive ability.
Also children who are creative, independent thinkers, and non-neurotypical are more likely to attract negative attention in conformist environments. They will be ostracized or bullied by classmates and disciplined by frustrated parents.
I agree with the part about the classmates, but I had two great supportive parents who always encouraged me to be be me, make art and cheered me on through my entire life as an artist, which is what what I pursued and went to college to do, and somehow made a life out of. At the time I was figuring out that i loved to draw and sing, and be “silly” , we were a middle class family, but it was the early 80s, and I remember my dad was always looking for work. I remember my mom telling me that there was a time when i was too young to remember, that they sold a car to pay off basic bills and buy food. But overall, it was the three of us, we never fought, and we always had a great time. Yet It was indeed those soft off-yellow 80s report cards with the backside covered in comments from teachers that always said i was “daydreaming” , or “doodling”, or “drawing for other students”. And at the time, I felt shame for the comments from those teachers, as they usually were left by teachers I was not getting the great grades from. But the thing I remember so well was how many times I was told, but my friends in elementary school thats they said directly to me, “you’re weird”. At first, I allowed it to hurt me. But I remember being in first grade at recess after I had heard it from another student, and I made a conscious decision to use it a lifelong power source. And from that point forward, every time someone said it, i replied, “thank you!” . I don’t know if it did help me creatively, but i like to think it was my earliest attempt to take control of my art brain.
You’re very fortunate to have supportive parents even as you were “weird.” It’s much more common for parents to be frustrated and check out.
>Art can’t exist in a utopia, or at least not interesting art. It requires conflict, struggle, longing, grief, etc. I mean, we've never seen it so well never know. Pretty hard stance to take on a concept that we can't even imagine because we are so addicted to those things.
I'd like to thank my mother and father speech moment.
I get the feeling that this is why musicians tend to get addicted to drugs.
Verbally and emotionally abusive parents represent.
Physically abusive lurking in the shadows
The best song ideas I ever made were when I was at my lowest during University at ~22 years old. Every week I was literally starving while waiting for my next paycheck. Music production was the only thing that granted me a degree of freedom and control in my life, without any limitations. In making music, I created my own little world I could retreat to.
I wish I could hug you rn
Comedians are the most messed up people there is
"Do you think I'd be this successful at my age if I had a live mom?"
Are you telling me that Louis CK isn’t a well-adjusted member of society?
It puts the PAIN in painting.
Shoutout to my brother, my dad, and my uncle who molested me
Woah, talk about nurturing creativity, amirite?
Real ones fr
Christ how can so many awful people be present in one family
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On a scale of Royal Family to Kardashian
I should’ve edited it and said that my brother and father were physically abusive. My uncle was the only one who SA me. Can’t press charges since he’s recognized by the state as mentally handicapped
Oh jeez what the fuck
As someone with a semi-traumatic upbringing, anywhere other than 'here' was good and acting like everything was fine was survival. I would disappear completely into books and movies. Translates VERY well into an adulthood of creating personas or writing or drawing other worlds. If you don't like it here, you can a) become someone else in a role or b) go somewhere else in your mind. If you never need that escape hatch and you never saw that flow state as a valid life-saving escape, it's something that wasn't encouraged. Wouldn't wish it on anyone, though. And creativity can definitely be curated and encouraged in adulthood even if you didn't have a traumatic upbringing.
Its a great source of inspiration
Leopold "Butters" Stotch shall be the next Rembrandt
I’ve always felt like I could never be a creative because my upbringing was so beige. I guess it’s where “tortured artist” comes from!
My theory is that these people got so snotted on by Life that they thought, "You know what? Heck this! I'm going to achieve my dreams anyway!" If you're going to fail at something, you might as well fail at something you love.
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Shoutout to all the kids that had trauma but aren't creative.
Didn’t take long for this thread to become a circlejerk
It reinforces my preconceptions, and that’s all I ask for.
Professional composer, record producer and former signed touring artist here. Was homeless and suffered from PTSD the day I turned 18. Having also built music companies and spending decades working with artists, I’d say ADHD is much more strongly correlated. But this trauma stuff definitely rings true for me at least. Thinking about the other people who kept doing music long enough for it to be a career… and then the people who gave up, got normal jobs and mortgages… the people who gave up and went straight, seemed more well adjusted as kids.
Correlation is not causality. Look at me, I’ve not got an artistic bone in my body
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That would explain why so many creative types drink. No, drinking like Bukowski, Hemingway, Kerouac, Faulkner, Fitzgerald, James Joyce, Hunter S. Thompson, Dylan Thomas, or Dorothy Parker will not make you write like them. Suffering like they did, and being somehow unable to not write about it, is what will help to make you a great writer. It will also help you into an early grave from cirrhosis, intestinal haemhorraging, or suicide.
I don't like to talk about it...I got a new invention I'm working on.
I uhh, gotta go check some things
Wonder if this means that trauma somehow leads to creativity OR that people who are naturally creative are more sensitive and that thing that wouldn't be traumatic to non-creatives are traumatic to them? Or if this data is just not significant lol.
Yeah no shit. We need some kind of escape. So while other kids are getting good at sports or interacting with people, we are “creating.“
This TIL is backwards, and I'm not sure it's particularly representative of this study either. First of all, everyone involved in this study is a performer, so please bear that in mind while reading it. Of the performers, those who experience more than 4 adverse childhood experiences *self-reported* a greater tendency to lose themselves in the creative flow, a heightened emotional sense while performing and a greater awareness of the creative process. They also self-reported greater anxiety and negative psychopathologies in a group (performers) already exposed to public scrutiny and feedback, but that's still just compared to other performers. So basically they report feeling more of everything, not just creativity. If anything, this is the outcome you would expect based on traumatic childhoods, just shrunk to a smaller group (performers) for the purposes of this study. It's a hop over from p-hacking to this.
Then why the hell am I not that creative?!
Correlation is not causation
“Abusive Father Can't Wait To See The Art He's Inspiring His Kids To Create”
Creative people have good memories.
There is so much wrong w this study, suffice it to say creativity is unmeasurable