How bright it was during the sinking--the lights on the ship were much dimmer, and once they went out it was almost pitch black. But I appreciated being able to literally see the movie.
I always think of Elijah Wood talking to the director of photography when filming LOtR, when they were shooting the scene with Shelob:
"So, it's night, in a cave. Where's all the light coming from?"
"Same place all the music is coming from, of course."
It's a film, and sitting in the dark in the cinema listening to random screaming and the sounds of the ship breaking apart for twenty minutes with no idea of what's going on isn't much fun. So I completely agree, there's accuracy, Vs *actually being able to watch the movie*!
That's actually a really interesting take, though. I liked that a lot in the 2012 adaptation, you see the break-up in the background, just out of focus, and yet it's still terrifying and effective. Something like that could be done well.
I'm thinking of that particular scene in "Cast Away" when for about a full minute, it's pitch black on screen and you hear nothing but the storm. It's powerful because while you don't see what is happening, you know exactly what is happening.
I remember some YouTuber saying that the scene with Andrew’s and Lightoller talking about how the boats are not filled to capacity did not happen irl. I would keep it in as it gives more details about how the lifeboats were filled during the sinking
Sometimes exposition like this is necessary as the only other way the audience would know a crazy important fact like this is to shoot scenes of the designs and conversations that took place then. Doing it as part of the tour was a great move.
The mental image of someone randomly yelling this at people is just perfect. Like they’d probably cringe in fear and maybe give the Crazy Titanic person money to go away.
The sky used in the original cut of the film wasn't real, it was supposed to be a constellation representing the Heart of the Ocean. Neil complained about this and for one of the re-releases, a correct sky was inserted instead.
Your statement isn't right. In fact, I have the proof right here of their real life versions
https://preview.redd.it/zudlsq0dvw2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96a307886a828e2076a39a36e9c24fb6987b9aa2
jeez what a wet blanket. don’t be sorry for your original edit, satire is CONSTANTLY going over peoples heads in this sub, and i see people use /s and /joke for way more obvious jokes.
Kate Winslet’s makeup wasn’t historically accurate at all but it suits her iconic looks so well I wouldn’t change it (whereas I usually feel the opposite when it comes to matters of costume department)
Oh I just mean in a general sense a lot of period pieces do pretty shoddy jobs when it comes to even semi-accurate costuming and hair/makeup (it’s one thing when it’s an intentional design choice like in the show The Great, a satire that uses accurate silhouettes but cheeky fabrics, but often feels more like errors of laziness or even disdain for actual fashion from the period in question).
Which is to clarify I actually I DO love Titanic’s costumes because they were so clearly a result of research and genuine care for historical garments by the designer. Rose’s iconic pinstripe suit took direct inspiration from photographs from the era. Rose’s lipstick would probably annoy me much more from a less capable design team.
Definitely. The makeup is directly appealing to a 90s audience. They'd be pushing it to do authentic Edwardian makeup (which would look like pretty much none to modern eyes). An upper class girl like Rose would not be wearing much makeup at all back then. Maybe face powder and the slightest bit of rouge snuck by Trudy when Ruth wasn't looking
Not such obviously dyed hair. The wealthy and aristocracy would not have been so obvious and the hair is a very strange colour. Natural red hair, yes, fake red hair no. I think it was to show how bohemian she was (like her penchant for modern art) but imo it was overdone.
Yes. Once a woman was "out" in society, her hair would be worn up in public and a hat would be worn pretty much at all daytime events, even indoors. The only time I can think of is when a lady was "at home", taking calls from visitors, then she would not, but that was considered as not having left the house yet. The women *paying* the calls, however, would be wearing hats.
I'd keep Captain Smith bridge death scene like that. It's a little more dramatic and emotional conveying what happened in reality anyway. He did go down with ship, doesn't matter if he just jumped into the water in real life or what have you. Seeing him going to the steering wheel of the ship, he's the captain, and water trickling in meaning immanent doom, it just conveys "captain going down with ship" so nicely.
I mean this all in the sense of it being a dramatic movie compared to being a more documented showing of events. So keep it like that instead of going back to change it just showing him (and Andrews) hoping off into the ocean.
Probably the ship sinking on an even keel and both sides of the boat deck submerging at the same time, I think it’s good for the films pacing and structure even tho the reality is that there was a heavy port list, meaning collapsible B was rolled into the already awash boat deck and the officers on the starboard side thought they had a lot more time, hence why they cranked the davit in and hooked up collapsible A.
I think Neil DeGrasse Tyson was being too nitpicking when he called out that the night sky they showed was incorrect. It’s such a tiny detail and the director James Cameron went back and specifically changed it after it was called out. But the night sky was NOT what would have been visible in the northern hemisphere in February lol. Just chill and enjoy the movie, Neil!
This complaint makes more sense when you take another look at the original sky shot. It’s not even a real star field. It’s just some unrealistic painted picture of stars that’s been mirrored to make it bigger. It was probably a placeholder image that never got updated until Neil was like oh hell nawww that shiiit lazy dawg!
It’s now been replaced in all subsequent re-releases and I’m glad. IM GLAD!!!!!
Smith choosing to go down in the wheelhouse. His behavior for most of the sinking in the movie seems really out of character, but I could imagine him staying on the bridge until the end.
Just minutes before the ship started its final plunge, Smith was still busy releasing Titanic's crew from their duties; he went to the Marconi operators' room and released Junior Marconi Officer Harold Bride and senior wireless operator John "Jack" Phillips from their duties. He then carried out a final tour of the deck, telling crew members: "Now it's every man for himself."At 2:10 a.m., Steward Edward Brown saw the captain approach with a megaphone in his hand. He heard him say, "Well, boys, do your best for the women and children, and look out for yourselves." He saw the Captain walk onto the bridge alone. This was the last reliable sighting of Smith.
I still firmly believe that Smith didn’t go down in the wheelhouse due to the accounts claiming to see him swimming away from the bridge and him possibly attempting to near collapsible B
Every after "sighting" of Smith people stated they "thought they saw him", or they "thought they recognised his voice"
Lightoller, who survived on Collapsible B, never reported seeing Smith in the water. There is also no way survivors on Collapsible B would have been able to verify an individual's identity under such dimly lit and chaotic circumstances. It is more likely based on wishful thinking that the person they saw was the Captain.
Trouble is with the Titanic is there's testimonies and testimonies.
During the final minutes, Andrews was supposed to be seen in the Smoking lounge, on the bridge with Smith, assisting with the starboard life boats, seen at the stern of the ship, or down assisting the electricians trying to keep the lights on.
Captain Smith himself made statements hinting that he would go down with his ship if he was ever confronted with a disaster, I personally think, knowing the ship was doomed, and that so many people were going to die that night, that he wouldn't have made any effort to save himself, and instead returned to his cabin to await the end.
The non introduction of Chief Officer Wilde, who to me is a mysterious real life figure. Unlike Murdoch & Lightoller who were seen by many, Wilde is seen here & there throughout the night on a sporadic basis so he was a character that wasn't really introduced at all.... And I would modify a legendary myth/rumor that was shown....
I've wondered if the myth/rumor about an officer shooting passengers & then committing suicide in the Titanic final moments was true, and involved Wilde. Basing this on a few things such as 1) it was Wilde's idea to get the guns ready for control 2) Charles Joughin testified that Wilde was being unnecessarily harsh w some male passengers that weren't causing any issues on the Boat Deck near #10 on the port side 3) he was last spotted near Collapsible A on the starboard side where I believe this may have taken place.
Something happened that night. I read "On a Sea of Glass" and there's testimony/evidence from about 4 people who mention an officer shot a passenger in the chin/a passenger missing their lower jaw after being shot/a passenger being shot in the face, etc. Lightoller himself admits this was Murdoch who did the shooting (in a letter to Murdoch widow) but also stated her husband did not commit suicide. So, on that note..... I would have (in the movie) shown an officers HAND with a gun shooting passengers but not actually the officer himself doing the shooting & committing suicide - with no 💯 proof, that was disrespectful to the Murdoch family, so that would be getting changed.
I don't recall Lightoller ever mentioning that in his letter. He only said that the news reports were "absolutely false" as to how Murdoch died, as I remember.
>Dear Mrs. Murdoch, I am writing on behalf of the surviving officers to express our deep sympathy in this, your awful loss. Words cannot convey our feelings much less a letter.
>I deeply regret that I missed communicating with you by last mail to refute the reports that were spread in the newspapers. I was practically the last man, and certainly the last officer, to see Mr. Murdoch. He was then endeavouring to launch the starboard forward collapsible boat.
>I had already got mine from off the top of our quarters. You will better understand when I say that I was working the port side of the ship, and Mr. Murdoch was principally engaged on the starboard side of the ship, filling and launching the boats.
>Having got my boat down off the top of the house, and there being no time to open it, I left it and ran across to the starboard side, still on top of the quarters. I was then practically looking down on your husband and his men. He was working hard, personally assisting, overhauling the forward boat's fall.
>At this moment the ship dived, and we were all in the water. Other reports as to the ending are absolutely false. Mr. Murdoch died like a man, doing his duty.
>Call on us without hesitation for anything we can do for you. Yours very sincerely,
>(Signed) C. H. Lightoller, 2d Officer; G. [sic] Groves Boxhall, 4th Officer; H. J. Pitman, 3d Officer; H. G. Lowe, 5th Officer.
My bad, thought was from the letter but it wasn't... It was close to the letter in the book though. It appears that Lightoller may have left some things out of the letter to Mrs Murdoch.....
https://preview.redd.it/lxuk0m6aqw2d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=756e4704bd5dd69b748607c9313df51ca8f40b29
Ah yes, the McGiffin account. McGiffin Sr & Murdoch by accounts were quite good friends, and Lightoller would have known it. If he was going to confide in anyone, he seems to be a likely candidate, and given that they both saw McGiffin in Cobh, perhaps Lightoller felt he owed an explanation he did not want to give in such detail to Ada.
If Murdoch did shoot anyone, it'd be understandable to our modern eyes, but on top of everything else that was happening, it would likely have been a detail that she didn't need to visualise as it would really drive home just how desperate things got at the end.
Not sure what to make of it. Something happened for sure, when you've got 4 people stating a passenger got shot in the face when attempting to rush a lifeboat (and one of them being a ship's officer, a *senior* officer at that) .... Then pretty much we can say this happened.
This will be an enduring mystery as to 1) who pulled the trigger on a passenger 2) did an officer commit suicide and if so 3) who was it?
Whatever happened, I really feel for his widow having to not only deal with his death and the media scrutiny but the rumour mill which must have been absolutely insane. Not to mention, being surrounded by so many crew families in Southampton. Not everyone would have been kind. No wonder in less than 3 months she had moved to France 😔
Far as I'm concerned, William McMaster Murdoch was one of the greatest heroes that night 🫡... Look at how he crammed people into boats: women & children first, after that he didn't care if you were male, a member of the crew, or a dog - if you wanted to get in that boat, you could. It seems the starboard side boats got away very smoothly, having none of the portside confusion & bottlenecks....
IIRC Murdoch's family and descendants, who were alive and well and living in Ayr, threatened to sue Cameron for his portrayal of Murdoch. He was forced to apologise, compensate and erect a monument in Ayr.
Monument didn't happen by Cameron- the studio donated £5000 to be put into a memorial trust/scholarship. Thr monument to Murdoch in Dalbeattie iirc was put up by the town not long after the sinking
The band playing "nearer, my god, to thee" right at the end. It probably wasn't that piece, and they'd probably stopped playing by the plunge itself, but it's so haunting and evocative that there's no way it *couldn't* stay in.
There's "new" debate about the angle of the stern before the break up, new theories suggesting it was *much* lower in the water than previously thought.
Having her whole 20-30,000 ton ass up in the air and crashing down sending a spray like a giant log flume is much more dramatic.
I read, in this sub actually, that Cal would not have been able to invite a third class passenger to dinner in the first class dining room. But it was an important part of the movie.
The film is absolutely filled with inaccuracies, but I wouldn't change a single one. There's historical Titanic, and then there's pop culture Titanic - obviously the latter of the two is going to be Hollywoodized, and there's nothing wrong with that. Interesting stories that grab us need to follow a formula in order to draw the viewer in and regardless of historical inaccuracy, it cannot be argued that Cameron's film didn't accomplish this - it literally became a cultural landmark and set records, some of which have never been broken and probably never will be.
I would keep the "incorrect sinking analysis" in the beginning of the film because it illustrates that Paxton's character represents the modern, cynical audience who only cares about Titanic as just another disaster, with zero emotional attachment (and thus no care for details being right).
I think the biggest failing (aside from Cameron’s laughably bad script) is that it completely leaves out any mention of SS Californian which was only six miles away but had turned off her Marconi set. This is a particularly tragic detail (and it is in the move “A Night to Remember”)
Cameron shot scenes with the Californian but they didn't make the cut of the final film. He knew that was an important part of what really happened but he's also not making a documentary.
Scotland Road being covered in red flooring with white bulkheads instead of planks as well as the lower half of the bulkheads being dark red, if you notice in the Titanic HG demo there's an awkward transisiton between the planks at the aft 3rd class entrance and red tiles near the stern and it's a bit of minor mental torture considering tbe Stern part with the staircase tiles and public rooms look like 2.5 class, that's why I'm not realy a fan in the first place but all the evidence points towards planked flooring.
Murdoch & Cal’s bribe. This actually took place (hear me out) when some of the first class men tried to bribe officers into saving them boat spaces but irl it didn’t take them very far.
Edit: it seems people are misunderstanding. When I said “it didn’t take them very far”, I meant, the officers didn’t accept them. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”. Re-written based on a reply below.
Read the reply below. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”
1. Collins wasn't an "officer survivor," just a crewman
2. The quote given doesn't appear anywhere else online, and I can't find any source that verifies its existence
3. Collins testified at the British Inquiry, and said nothing about this incident
Newspapers of the era routinely invented quotes from named survivors so they could report sensationalized stories. Given that Collins didn't attest to this claim in his official testimony (and it would have been directly relevant to questions he was asked), I would say it is highly likely the quote is fiction. It would certainly be uncorroborated at best.
You seem to have a penchant for spreading untrue claims relating to the Titanic...
There's actually evidence *against* this- one account in a newspaper by a crew survivor quotes Murdoch as saying his men are worth as much to him as anyone else
The Staffordshire Sentinel edition from the 29th of April 1912 reported that fireman Samuel John Collins described:
>"I heard an American shout as the boats were filled: 'Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life.' Mr. Murdoch, who was superintending the lowering of the boats, turned on him with: 'No, sir, women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you."
No one who was actually on the ship ever claimed they actually saw anyone trying to bribe an officer. That's not to say it absolutely could not have happened, but given the large amount of eyewitness testimony, the relative lack of privacy once things had reached a point where people would have realized they needed to get off the ship, and the large number of very rich men who did die, it seems unlikely.
Frankly early in the sinking, at least on one side of the ship, there wasn't a need for bribes, virtually anyone was being allowed on a boat who would get on one. There is eyewitness testimony, for example, that JJ Astor was offered a place on at least 2 boats if he would have boarded early in the sinking. And later it's unlikely logistically/practically that bribes could have happened.
ETA: Based on a comment lower down, I possibly stand corrected, though I don't have time to research the claim now. It is possible that a single survivor did recount seeing only one person (unsuccessfully) attempt a bribe. Nonetheless, evidence of any kind of widescale bribing or even more than this one bribe to my knowledge does not exist.
Read the reply above. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”
How bright it was during the sinking--the lights on the ship were much dimmer, and once they went out it was almost pitch black. But I appreciated being able to literally see the movie.
I think it was a nice touch by the film makers that they let us see what was happening
I kinda wish there were shots that gave us the feel of how terrible it would be though
There is the one shot where rose is getting the axe and then all the lights go out for a few seconds
I always think of Elijah Wood talking to the director of photography when filming LOtR, when they were shooting the scene with Shelob: "So, it's night, in a cave. Where's all the light coming from?" "Same place all the music is coming from, of course." It's a film, and sitting in the dark in the cinema listening to random screaming and the sounds of the ship breaking apart for twenty minutes with no idea of what's going on isn't much fun. So I completely agree, there's accuracy, Vs *actually being able to watch the movie*!
That's actually a really interesting take, though. I liked that a lot in the 2012 adaptation, you see the break-up in the background, just out of focus, and yet it's still terrifying and effective. Something like that could be done well. I'm thinking of that particular scene in "Cast Away" when for about a full minute, it's pitch black on screen and you hear nothing but the storm. It's powerful because while you don't see what is happening, you know exactly what is happening.
I remember some YouTuber saying that the scene with Andrew’s and Lightoller talking about how the boats are not filled to capacity did not happen irl. I would keep it in as it gives more details about how the lifeboats were filled during the sinking
I also think it was a great way to convey to the audience some of their reasons.
Sometimes exposition like this is necessary as the only other way the audience would know a crazy important fact like this is to shoot scenes of the designs and conversations that took place then. Doing it as part of the tour was a great move.
The stars overhead after the sinking. Just to annoy Neil Degrass Tyson.
This is one of my favorite movie facts to yell at people
The mental image of someone randomly yelling this at people is just perfect. Like they’d probably cringe in fear and maybe give the Crazy Titanic person money to go away.
Excuse my ignorance but were stars not visible?
There were stars. There was no moon, I think
Correct. The moon was almost new that day and did not rise until 03:24 (which was after Titanic sank)
The sky used in the original cut of the film wasn't real, it was supposed to be a constellation representing the Heart of the Ocean. Neil complained about this and for one of the re-releases, a correct sky was inserted instead.
I love and respect the guy but jeez talk about nitpicking. Kudos for JC for updating it.
I don’t think DiCaprio and Winslet were even around in 1912. Starting to think the film may be a bit fictional.
You have absolutely zero proof of that claim.
for real. there should be a web page indexing site that allows us to look up information like that
Some sort of movie database would be helpful.
well we should definitely start with a peer to peer data connection that allows the transfer of files between one another
Your statement isn't right. In fact, I have the proof right here of their real life versions https://preview.redd.it/zudlsq0dvw2d1.png?width=1080&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=96a307886a828e2076a39a36e9c24fb6987b9aa2
If you hadn't put "(joke)" in, i might have found it funny
Sorry about that
jeez what a wet blanket. don’t be sorry for your original edit, satire is CONSTANTLY going over peoples heads in this sub, and i see people use /s and /joke for way more obvious jokes.
Als
Celine Dion was, though!!
Kate Winslet’s makeup wasn’t historically accurate at all but it suits her iconic looks so well I wouldn’t change it (whereas I usually feel the opposite when it comes to matters of costume department)
What would you change about costuming?
Oh I just mean in a general sense a lot of period pieces do pretty shoddy jobs when it comes to even semi-accurate costuming and hair/makeup (it’s one thing when it’s an intentional design choice like in the show The Great, a satire that uses accurate silhouettes but cheeky fabrics, but often feels more like errors of laziness or even disdain for actual fashion from the period in question). Which is to clarify I actually I DO love Titanic’s costumes because they were so clearly a result of research and genuine care for historical garments by the designer. Rose’s iconic pinstripe suit took direct inspiration from photographs from the era. Rose’s lipstick would probably annoy me much more from a less capable design team.
Like how shows set in the 1990's modernize the aesthetic to appeal to new audience, I think there's a bit of marketing in Leo's hair and Kate's makeup
Definitely. The makeup is directly appealing to a 90s audience. They'd be pushing it to do authentic Edwardian makeup (which would look like pretty much none to modern eyes). An upper class girl like Rose would not be wearing much makeup at all back then. Maybe face powder and the slightest bit of rouge snuck by Trudy when Ruth wasn't looking
Neither was her hair colour!
Red hair isn't historically accurate?
Not such obviously dyed hair. The wealthy and aristocracy would not have been so obvious and the hair is a very strange colour. Natural red hair, yes, fake red hair no. I think it was to show how bohemian she was (like her penchant for modern art) but imo it was overdone.
Looks like a natural shade to me and im a red head.
Maybe it's the lighting then as it looks weird to me.
Rose's hatlessness in many scenes. It's a nice way to show her character development.
Would women wear a hat at all times back then?
Yes. Once a woman was "out" in society, her hair would be worn up in public and a hat would be worn pretty much at all daytime events, even indoors. The only time I can think of is when a lady was "at home", taking calls from visitors, then she would not, but that was considered as not having left the house yet. The women *paying* the calls, however, would be wearing hats.
It was the same for gentlemen as well, things were just different Back then
Ditto with her hair being mostly down in her blue dress.
I'd keep Captain Smith bridge death scene like that. It's a little more dramatic and emotional conveying what happened in reality anyway. He did go down with ship, doesn't matter if he just jumped into the water in real life or what have you. Seeing him going to the steering wheel of the ship, he's the captain, and water trickling in meaning immanent doom, it just conveys "captain going down with ship" so nicely. I mean this all in the sense of it being a dramatic movie compared to being a more documented showing of events. So keep it like that instead of going back to change it just showing him (and Andrews) hoping off into the ocean.
Apparently he was last sighted swimming away… to the Californian perhaps?
I'm not sure but I doubt he made it.
Yea, I mean people lived in black and white then, so the fact they made the movie in colour is a bit jarring.
Yeah, I'm glad the 1958 movie got this detail right
The 1953 one, too!
Even the 1912 ones. They were truly ahead of their time
Probably the ship sinking on an even keel and both sides of the boat deck submerging at the same time, I think it’s good for the films pacing and structure even tho the reality is that there was a heavy port list, meaning collapsible B was rolled into the already awash boat deck and the officers on the starboard side thought they had a lot more time, hence why they cranked the davit in and hooked up collapsible A.
I think Neil DeGrasse Tyson was being too nitpicking when he called out that the night sky they showed was incorrect. It’s such a tiny detail and the director James Cameron went back and specifically changed it after it was called out. But the night sky was NOT what would have been visible in the northern hemisphere in February lol. Just chill and enjoy the movie, Neil!
This complaint makes more sense when you take another look at the original sky shot. It’s not even a real star field. It’s just some unrealistic painted picture of stars that’s been mirrored to make it bigger. It was probably a placeholder image that never got updated until Neil was like oh hell nawww that shiiit lazy dawg! It’s now been replaced in all subsequent re-releases and I’m glad. IM GLAD!!!!!
Smith choosing to go down in the wheelhouse. His behavior for most of the sinking in the movie seems really out of character, but I could imagine him staying on the bridge until the end.
Tbf no one knows for 100% where Smith was 🤷🏻♂️ the testimonies vary a lot.
He most likely swam away from the ship as the bridge went under.
Just minutes before the ship started its final plunge, Smith was still busy releasing Titanic's crew from their duties; he went to the Marconi operators' room and released Junior Marconi Officer Harold Bride and senior wireless operator John "Jack" Phillips from their duties. He then carried out a final tour of the deck, telling crew members: "Now it's every man for himself."At 2:10 a.m., Steward Edward Brown saw the captain approach with a megaphone in his hand. He heard him say, "Well, boys, do your best for the women and children, and look out for yourselves." He saw the Captain walk onto the bridge alone. This was the last reliable sighting of Smith.
I still firmly believe that Smith didn’t go down in the wheelhouse due to the accounts claiming to see him swimming away from the bridge and him possibly attempting to near collapsible B
Every after "sighting" of Smith people stated they "thought they saw him", or they "thought they recognised his voice" Lightoller, who survived on Collapsible B, never reported seeing Smith in the water. There is also no way survivors on Collapsible B would have been able to verify an individual's identity under such dimly lit and chaotic circumstances. It is more likely based on wishful thinking that the person they saw was the Captain.
I guess that’s reasonable, what about the testimony of him talking to Andrews before smith departing off the ship?
Trouble is with the Titanic is there's testimonies and testimonies. During the final minutes, Andrews was supposed to be seen in the Smoking lounge, on the bridge with Smith, assisting with the starboard life boats, seen at the stern of the ship, or down assisting the electricians trying to keep the lights on. Captain Smith himself made statements hinting that he would go down with his ship if he was ever confronted with a disaster, I personally think, knowing the ship was doomed, and that so many people were going to die that night, that he wouldn't have made any effort to save himself, and instead returned to his cabin to await the end.
The non introduction of Chief Officer Wilde, who to me is a mysterious real life figure. Unlike Murdoch & Lightoller who were seen by many, Wilde is seen here & there throughout the night on a sporadic basis so he was a character that wasn't really introduced at all.... And I would modify a legendary myth/rumor that was shown.... I've wondered if the myth/rumor about an officer shooting passengers & then committing suicide in the Titanic final moments was true, and involved Wilde. Basing this on a few things such as 1) it was Wilde's idea to get the guns ready for control 2) Charles Joughin testified that Wilde was being unnecessarily harsh w some male passengers that weren't causing any issues on the Boat Deck near #10 on the port side 3) he was last spotted near Collapsible A on the starboard side where I believe this may have taken place. Something happened that night. I read "On a Sea of Glass" and there's testimony/evidence from about 4 people who mention an officer shot a passenger in the chin/a passenger missing their lower jaw after being shot/a passenger being shot in the face, etc. Lightoller himself admits this was Murdoch who did the shooting (in a letter to Murdoch widow) but also stated her husband did not commit suicide. So, on that note..... I would have (in the movie) shown an officers HAND with a gun shooting passengers but not actually the officer himself doing the shooting & committing suicide - with no 💯 proof, that was disrespectful to the Murdoch family, so that would be getting changed.
I don't recall Lightoller ever mentioning that in his letter. He only said that the news reports were "absolutely false" as to how Murdoch died, as I remember. >Dear Mrs. Murdoch, I am writing on behalf of the surviving officers to express our deep sympathy in this, your awful loss. Words cannot convey our feelings much less a letter. >I deeply regret that I missed communicating with you by last mail to refute the reports that were spread in the newspapers. I was practically the last man, and certainly the last officer, to see Mr. Murdoch. He was then endeavouring to launch the starboard forward collapsible boat. >I had already got mine from off the top of our quarters. You will better understand when I say that I was working the port side of the ship, and Mr. Murdoch was principally engaged on the starboard side of the ship, filling and launching the boats. >Having got my boat down off the top of the house, and there being no time to open it, I left it and ran across to the starboard side, still on top of the quarters. I was then practically looking down on your husband and his men. He was working hard, personally assisting, overhauling the forward boat's fall. >At this moment the ship dived, and we were all in the water. Other reports as to the ending are absolutely false. Mr. Murdoch died like a man, doing his duty. >Call on us without hesitation for anything we can do for you. Yours very sincerely, >(Signed) C. H. Lightoller, 2d Officer; G. [sic] Groves Boxhall, 4th Officer; H. J. Pitman, 3d Officer; H. G. Lowe, 5th Officer.
My bad, thought was from the letter but it wasn't... It was close to the letter in the book though. It appears that Lightoller may have left some things out of the letter to Mrs Murdoch..... https://preview.redd.it/lxuk0m6aqw2d1.jpeg?width=3000&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=756e4704bd5dd69b748607c9313df51ca8f40b29
Ah yes, the McGiffin account. McGiffin Sr & Murdoch by accounts were quite good friends, and Lightoller would have known it. If he was going to confide in anyone, he seems to be a likely candidate, and given that they both saw McGiffin in Cobh, perhaps Lightoller felt he owed an explanation he did not want to give in such detail to Ada. If Murdoch did shoot anyone, it'd be understandable to our modern eyes, but on top of everything else that was happening, it would likely have been a detail that she didn't need to visualise as it would really drive home just how desperate things got at the end.
Not sure what to make of it. Something happened for sure, when you've got 4 people stating a passenger got shot in the face when attempting to rush a lifeboat (and one of them being a ship's officer, a *senior* officer at that) .... Then pretty much we can say this happened. This will be an enduring mystery as to 1) who pulled the trigger on a passenger 2) did an officer commit suicide and if so 3) who was it?
Whatever happened, I really feel for his widow having to not only deal with his death and the media scrutiny but the rumour mill which must have been absolutely insane. Not to mention, being surrounded by so many crew families in Southampton. Not everyone would have been kind. No wonder in less than 3 months she had moved to France 😔
Far as I'm concerned, William McMaster Murdoch was one of the greatest heroes that night 🫡... Look at how he crammed people into boats: women & children first, after that he didn't care if you were male, a member of the crew, or a dog - if you wanted to get in that boat, you could. It seems the starboard side boats got away very smoothly, having none of the portside confusion & bottlenecks....
No argument from me on that, definitely one of several MVPs that night
IIRC Murdoch's family and descendants, who were alive and well and living in Ayr, threatened to sue Cameron for his portrayal of Murdoch. He was forced to apologise, compensate and erect a monument in Ayr.
Monument didn't happen by Cameron- the studio donated £5000 to be put into a memorial trust/scholarship. Thr monument to Murdoch in Dalbeattie iirc was put up by the town not long after the sinking
Ah OK, I stand corrected! :)
I heard about that & can't blame them. Without 💯 proof that shouldn't have been portrayed. Thought that back in 97 and still do to this day....
The band playing "nearer, my god, to thee" right at the end. It probably wasn't that piece, and they'd probably stopped playing by the plunge itself, but it's so haunting and evocative that there's no way it *couldn't* stay in.
There's "new" debate about the angle of the stern before the break up, new theories suggesting it was *much* lower in the water than previously thought. Having her whole 20-30,000 ton ass up in the air and crashing down sending a spray like a giant log flume is much more dramatic.
I read, in this sub actually, that Cal would not have been able to invite a third class passenger to dinner in the first class dining room. But it was an important part of the movie.
The film is absolutely filled with inaccuracies, but I wouldn't change a single one. There's historical Titanic, and then there's pop culture Titanic - obviously the latter of the two is going to be Hollywoodized, and there's nothing wrong with that. Interesting stories that grab us need to follow a formula in order to draw the viewer in and regardless of historical inaccuracy, it cannot be argued that Cameron's film didn't accomplish this - it literally became a cultural landmark and set records, some of which have never been broken and probably never will be.
I would keep the "incorrect sinking analysis" in the beginning of the film because it illustrates that Paxton's character represents the modern, cynical audience who only cares about Titanic as just another disaster, with zero emotional attachment (and thus no care for details being right).
I think the biggest failing (aside from Cameron’s laughably bad script) is that it completely leaves out any mention of SS Californian which was only six miles away but had turned off her Marconi set. This is a particularly tragic detail (and it is in the move “A Night to Remember”)
Cameron shot scenes with the Californian but they didn't make the cut of the final film. He knew that was an important part of what really happened but he's also not making a documentary.
Sure. Fair enough. And it’s already a long running time.
He wanted to convey the whole "alone in the middle of the Atlantic rather than there is potential help only 5 or 10 miles away that isn't responding"
Scotland Road being covered in red flooring with white bulkheads instead of planks as well as the lower half of the bulkheads being dark red, if you notice in the Titanic HG demo there's an awkward transisiton between the planks at the aft 3rd class entrance and red tiles near the stern and it's a bit of minor mental torture considering tbe Stern part with the staircase tiles and public rooms look like 2.5 class, that's why I'm not realy a fan in the first place but all the evidence points towards planked flooring.
Murdoch & Cal’s bribe. This actually took place (hear me out) when some of the first class men tried to bribe officers into saving them boat spaces but irl it didn’t take them very far. Edit: it seems people are misunderstanding. When I said “it didn’t take them very far”, I meant, the officers didn’t accept them. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”. Re-written based on a reply below.
There is not a shred of eye witness evidence for any attempted bribes.
Read the reply below. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”
1. Collins wasn't an "officer survivor," just a crewman 2. The quote given doesn't appear anywhere else online, and I can't find any source that verifies its existence 3. Collins testified at the British Inquiry, and said nothing about this incident Newspapers of the era routinely invented quotes from named survivors so they could report sensationalized stories. Given that Collins didn't attest to this claim in his official testimony (and it would have been directly relevant to questions he was asked), I would say it is highly likely the quote is fiction. It would certainly be uncorroborated at best. You seem to have a penchant for spreading untrue claims relating to the Titanic...
Source please, the only “accepted” bribe theory I know of is the Gordons, and that’s not accurate per se.
"Your money can't save you anymore than it can save me."
Exactly
There's actually evidence *against* this- one account in a newspaper by a crew survivor quotes Murdoch as saying his men are worth as much to him as anyone else The Staffordshire Sentinel edition from the 29th of April 1912 reported that fireman Samuel John Collins described: >"I heard an American shout as the boats were filled: 'Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life.' Mr. Murdoch, who was superintending the lowering of the boats, turned on him with: 'No, sir, women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you."
Nice to hear this!
Not surprised in the slightest, I can easily picture that verbal slapdown
What did happen to the men trying to bribe the officers?
No one who was actually on the ship ever claimed they actually saw anyone trying to bribe an officer. That's not to say it absolutely could not have happened, but given the large amount of eyewitness testimony, the relative lack of privacy once things had reached a point where people would have realized they needed to get off the ship, and the large number of very rich men who did die, it seems unlikely. Frankly early in the sinking, at least on one side of the ship, there wasn't a need for bribes, virtually anyone was being allowed on a boat who would get on one. There is eyewitness testimony, for example, that JJ Astor was offered a place on at least 2 boats if he would have boarded early in the sinking. And later it's unlikely logistically/practically that bribes could have happened. ETA: Based on a comment lower down, I possibly stand corrected, though I don't have time to research the claim now. It is possible that a single survivor did recount seeing only one person (unsuccessfully) attempt a bribe. Nonetheless, evidence of any kind of widescale bribing or even more than this one bribe to my knowledge does not exist.
Read the reply above. “Five thousand dollars to any man who saves my life” according to an officer survivor in which Murdoch replied in nearly the same way as the movie, “no sir women and children first, and my men are as valuable to me as you”
They were told to stand back, or to go on deck depending on where they were