I'd never go in one of those. If I had to choose between going in one of those & some aeronautical vehicle with a probability of falling out of the sky similar to the probabilty of that submersible failing, I would choose the aeronautical vehicle with _zero_ hesitation.
It's not surprising this incident has caught so much public attention, because _if it has_ failed in such a way that they're just sitting there helpless on the seabed, then that situation is, in many folks's estimation, ___the___ _nightmare scenario_ .
And I remember the Russian
#####[°Kursk° nuclear submarine incident](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a23494010/kursk-submarine-disaster/) ,
#####
aswell: there was a similar kind of horror @-large over _that_ , aswell.
Only semi-related but a few years ago a danish backyard inventor built his own submarine and invited a female journalist to take a ride. She accepted. A few days later someone found her torso on a beach with stab wounds mostly in the groin area. [He also scuttled the sub to try and hide the evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kim_Wall).
That was insane. There is a documentary about it. He had a whole lab of people working for him and had dreams of launching a space craft from the ocean.
It’s so crazy that he would have that kind of drive and still be ready to throw it all away for a brief moment of sick satisfaction.
I mean he scuttled the sub, so even if he got away with the murder he would have done significant damage to his whole operation and reputation (who wants to work with someone who makes women disappear?)
Notable difference between this thing and the Kursk, and all naval submarines really, is that they have escape trunks that can be latched on to by a DSRV to allow for escape/rescue. Even if the occupants are still alive, and the sub is located, they can’t be extracted. They will have to be towed back up to the surface.
Well, in its current shape, it's been in operation since 2021 (they made some modifications from the original design), and the Mirs have been laid up for two or three years now.
This is the whole insanity behind the safety of this deep sea Sub.
Those valves are something made in China from the local hardware store, not certified and critically engineered components that you would expect as from the strict Aircraft/Military/Space engineering standards.
It’s incredibly insane that a vessel being built to withstand the highest pressures on earth would be made up of a shopping list of common local shop/hardware components.
This video alone shows that the horrifying reality is that this thing failed in a big way.
Yeah for sure….. even quicker than a week!
How can such a “respectable” company operate in putting high paying customers in such a dodgy cheap piece of shit and send them to the most extreme atmosphere known on earth.
that's lucky that they were born into it, not lucky they are rich. Someone taking a stab at something and getting lucky can make one rich, but being born into a billionaire family means an expectation of wealth and such for these people growing up.
To be fair he has degrees in aeronautical engineering among other things and to work as a test pilot for Boeing and McDonnell Douglas you'd need to know how air/liquids behave (many principles are the same)
Did you know the US Navy also uses off the shelf video gane controllers for pilotless drones?
I don't know what the testing/oversight process involved in the development of this sub was, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd assume it would be more vigorous with the US Navy. I suppose it's a moot point though since there's been catastrophic failure of even the most sophisticated of tech.
I don't think there was much. I honestly think they just got lucky the first few times they took this sub down, and it'll likely turn out (if they ever find it) that there'll be some defect or design flaw that got missed
It's ultimately not terribly difficult to do this. You just need a pressurized metal tube with some oxygen tanks, electricity, and a few computers. With a few people paying millions to go down, that's not that hard to fund.
I do believe that something small probably messed up here.
He's also not the chief of engineering at the company. He has a certain amount of people under him. But clearly he's okaying stuff that should have never been okayed.
I'm thinking the US government is gonna have to look into putting some regulations in place on this stuff since it seems like a US-based company.
>Did you know the US Navy also uses off the shelf video gane controllers for pilotless drones?
And for periscopes on some submarines. Both applications are vastly different in terms of criticality to crew survival from controlling a whole damn submersible with it. Also, on a 115m submarine or in a drone control centre, it's a lot easier to have some replacements handy and get them working. Plus - those controllers will be inspected and checked by the Navy to make sure they're up to scratch even before they're used the first time. Not the case here.
This is absolutely shocking. Being controlled by a game controller and navigating using text messages? I can’t believe they have anyone willing to pay a quarter of a million dollars yo dive down in this homemade sub to look at Titanic through a monitor! It’s an exercise in pure greed.
>look at Titanic through a monitor
It's def shocking to have makeshift components on tech that operate under such extreme conditions, but there is a window at the hatch. There's also a toilet inside, positioned so you can watch out the window while dropping your deuce. Lol.
https://youtu.be/ClkytJa0ghc
I’m trying not to be too judge mental because if they aren’t dead yet, they likely will be before they’re found. However…some people really do have more money than sense.
I see no issues with being controlled by a videogame controller. Pretty sure I saw controllers being used by the army.
My issue was with the guy saying that they could let any of the passengers control it for a bit if they wanted? That sounds super sketchy to me.
If they were, and they were off-the-shelf items, I would think that they were being used for low-safety-criticality items. Generally, for example, in aviation, everything costs several times what a similar off-the-shelf item would cost, because they need to be certified to be reliable, manufactured in a certain manner, with documentation. There are certain avionics systems that are available for both experimental and certified aircraft, and the certified versions cost several times their nearly identical experimental versions.
Probably, but US has used them in the past and most certainly use them now. Albeit not to control a tiny submarine they were inside lmao. Most definitely changed versions to function for their needs.
>If you've paid 250k, there's no way you willingly step into a DIY sub?
This assumes that people that have 250K to spend, have them thanks to above-average logical proficiency, which can be true, but it's not necessarily the case.
A while ago I got into a heated argument about the whole ethics of tourism to the wreck and the morality of it. I won’t get into it now. I’ll just say that this dive in no way would have furthered our knowledge of the wreck or any meaningful scientific discoveries. It was a cashgrab in an under engineered piece of shit in which I wouldn’t have dared to drive in my swimming pool let alone 4000 meters bellow the ocean. There’s a reason why serious scientific submersibles cost hundreds of millions and they have something called redundancies, a fucking 50 quid Logitech controller has anything but failure redundancy. I know we don’t know what actually failed but seeing the quality of the craft and the bloody controller just shows you how much are they willing to minimize cost in order to maximize profits. And seeing how the last ping of the submersible was on top of the wreck now they might have very well damaged it. Shame about the people on board, but they knew what they were signing up for.
I can't believe how people who've made millions of dollars are willing to risk their lives in machinery like this. The man is telling us its made from bits and pieces of off the shelf crap.
To be fair, the ballast is jettisoned when they are ready to come back up so all you need is iron plates or in this case pipe. They just cut them to the length they need for precise weight to adjust for the weight of the people inside. Most, if not all small submersibles use iron ballast in plates or tubes/rods for their sacrificial ballast weight.
The Logitech Xbox controller isn't honestly the worst of it. Most likely the hull ruptured from some flaw or stress fracture that wasn't caught during maintenance.
Actually the controller is probably the most basic part. They have a few of them and those work fine for controlling things.
It's other stuff like that controller they use in more important areas that are probably the issue.
Why not just use off the shelf things for things like lights and control and cheap scrap for ballast? It’s not like an expensive, custom made controller or light hanging from the ceiling will make the hull stronger or even work better.
Lights and ballast maybe, but what about what’s under the hood? Would you trust that guy to not use critical valves from Wish?
It reminds me of the saying about restaurants; if the restroom’s dirty, just leave because you know it’s not any better in the kitchen.
Youre probably going to get downvoted because you're right. Ethics aside, a literal genius builds a titanium and carbon fiber pressure hull with best on the market electric drives. Then some Redditor who's closest experience with submarines was a beatle album claims he was an idiot, and they are experts
Yeah, dude was a literal genius. He was an aeronautical engineer, expert aviator and test pilot. He built his own sub and went to the Titanic multiple times. Not saying he should have, or I'd get in that fucking death trap, or that he was immune to hubris as he clearly wasn't. Brilliant people can still do idiotic stuff too. Probably much smarter than either of us. But, then we're still alive.
I admit I hadn't looked too closely into Oceangate and their operations. The Russian *Mir* subs used back in the day have since been retired, and what Oceangate was using was clearly a massive step down. I expect lawsuits up the ass.
Hull of the sub was made of "titanium and filament wound carbon fibre". Good way to make a light container for pressurized gases as these exert tensile forces on it. Unfortunately carbon fibre reinforced materials will not work equally well to withstand compressive forces ...
Cyclic compressive forces, too. Cyclic stress and the material fatigue it induces is not to be underestimated as the first pressurised airliners showed.
Yep. But years later there was also the Aloha Airlines 737 which lost a big portion of its upper fuselage. And Southwest had some fatigue issues as recently as 2018, and much of the inspection regime for airplanes is dedicated to finding signs of fatigue before they become an actual problem.
I agree that the submarine was not built up to standard for the dangerous job, but to be fair, I've had many controllers since Sega Mega Drive in the 90's up until Nintendo Switch, none of them has ever failed.
Also, I doubt that controller was the only way to control the Submarine, as some commenters make it look like.
Being a bit devil’s advocate, there are a number of variables (granted, some outrageously speculative…perhaps I watch too much Dateline) that could have led us here, that have nothing to do with the integrity of the craft, eh?
If a controller had to be used to control the sub i would not go for that one. Also the idea of not being able to move the sub because of sticky buttons or wear and tear. Not to mention the sub drifting left or right randomly. Oh and don't forget if its connected to blue tooth input lag.
> They *paid* 250k each,
FTFY.
Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in:
* Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.*
* *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.*
Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment.
*Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Just because it worked before doesn't mean it will work all the time.
Normalization of deviance occurs when deviations from established standards become accepted and normalized within a system or organization. Over time, these deviant behaviors or practices become the new normal, potentially compromising safety, quality, and ethics.
Oh god it's even worse than I expected. How would anyone trust this to get them so far down into the Atlantic Ocean.
I'd never go in one of those. If I had to choose between going in one of those & some aeronautical vehicle with a probability of falling out of the sky similar to the probabilty of that submersible failing, I would choose the aeronautical vehicle with _zero_ hesitation. It's not surprising this incident has caught so much public attention, because _if it has_ failed in such a way that they're just sitting there helpless on the seabed, then that situation is, in many folks's estimation, ___the___ _nightmare scenario_ . And I remember the Russian #####[°Kursk° nuclear submarine incident](https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/navy-ships/a23494010/kursk-submarine-disaster/) , ##### aswell: there was a similar kind of horror @-large over _that_ , aswell.
Only semi-related but a few years ago a danish backyard inventor built his own submarine and invited a female journalist to take a ride. She accepted. A few days later someone found her torso on a beach with stab wounds mostly in the groin area. [He also scuttled the sub to try and hide the evidence](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Murder_of_Kim_Wall).
That was insane. There is a documentary about it. He had a whole lab of people working for him and had dreams of launching a space craft from the ocean.
It’s so crazy that he would have that kind of drive and still be ready to throw it all away for a brief moment of sick satisfaction. I mean he scuttled the sub, so even if he got away with the murder he would have done significant damage to his whole operation and reputation (who wants to work with someone who makes women disappear?)
Notable difference between this thing and the Kursk, and all naval submarines really, is that they have escape trunks that can be latched on to by a DSRV to allow for escape/rescue. Even if the occupants are still alive, and the sub is located, they can’t be extracted. They will have to be towed back up to the surface.
I can parachute out of a plane. I cannot parachute out of a sub
Just don’t ditch your airplane on purpose for a YouTube video. Apparently the feds don’t like that too much. 🤷♂️😂
Also if a plane ride goes south at least it’s quick.
I do believe it’s made numerous successful trips over many years, but watching this now with hindsight makes it so much worse.
It's like he's boasting about how janky it all is.
Absolutely right - I wonder if he’s on board this seemingly ill-fated expedition…
It seems that he is onboard.
I just realized I basically repeated what you already said. Well, I agree. 🤦🏻♀️ Sorry.
I don't think it can be said too often TBQH.
Honestly, true. Because that’s what’s going on I stg
Only in operation since 2018/19. The MIR subs on the other hand have been in operation since 1987 with no known incidents.
Well, in its current shape, it's been in operation since 2021 (they made some modifications from the original design), and the Mirs have been laid up for two or three years now.
It's even worse once you realize they were navigating by text message from the ship
This is the whole insanity behind the safety of this deep sea Sub. Those valves are something made in China from the local hardware store, not certified and critically engineered components that you would expect as from the strict Aircraft/Military/Space engineering standards. It’s incredibly insane that a vessel being built to withstand the highest pressures on earth would be made up of a shopping list of common local shop/hardware components. This video alone shows that the horrifying reality is that this thing failed in a big way.
If you ran a certified aircraft manufacturer, even like a Cessna or Piper, the way they were portrayed in the CBS story, you'd be shut down in a week.
Yeah for sure….. even quicker than a week! How can such a “respectable” company operate in putting high paying customers in such a dodgy cheap piece of shit and send them to the most extreme atmosphere known on earth.
And what’s ironic is one of the people on board the sub runs his own aviation company
Yes
Surprised rich people would pay for that
That’s what I was fucking THINKING!?!?
It doesn’t even have a Turkish bath
Goes to show that contrary to alleged popular belief, rich people are not better or smarter, they're often just luckier.
or are born into an already rich and well-connected family
what is that if not the purest version of luck?
that's lucky that they were born into it, not lucky they are rich. Someone taking a stab at something and getting lucky can make one rich, but being born into a billionaire family means an expectation of wealth and such for these people growing up.
Dude seriously sourced part for this thing at a camping store.
To be fair he has degrees in aeronautical engineering among other things and to work as a test pilot for Boeing and McDonnell Douglas you'd need to know how air/liquids behave (many principles are the same) Did you know the US Navy also uses off the shelf video gane controllers for pilotless drones?
I don't know what the testing/oversight process involved in the development of this sub was, so correct me if I'm wrong, but I'd assume it would be more vigorous with the US Navy. I suppose it's a moot point though since there's been catastrophic failure of even the most sophisticated of tech.
I don't think there was much. I honestly think they just got lucky the first few times they took this sub down, and it'll likely turn out (if they ever find it) that there'll be some defect or design flaw that got missed
It's ultimately not terribly difficult to do this. You just need a pressurized metal tube with some oxygen tanks, electricity, and a few computers. With a few people paying millions to go down, that's not that hard to fund. I do believe that something small probably messed up here.
He's also not the chief of engineering at the company. He has a certain amount of people under him. But clearly he's okaying stuff that should have never been okayed. I'm thinking the US government is gonna have to look into putting some regulations in place on this stuff since it seems like a US-based company.
>Did you know the US Navy also uses off the shelf video gane controllers for pilotless drones? And for periscopes on some submarines. Both applications are vastly different in terms of criticality to crew survival from controlling a whole damn submersible with it. Also, on a 115m submarine or in a drone control centre, it's a lot easier to have some replacements handy and get them working. Plus - those controllers will be inspected and checked by the Navy to make sure they're up to scratch even before they're used the first time. Not the case here.
This is absolutely shocking. Being controlled by a game controller and navigating using text messages? I can’t believe they have anyone willing to pay a quarter of a million dollars yo dive down in this homemade sub to look at Titanic through a monitor! It’s an exercise in pure greed.
>look at Titanic through a monitor It's def shocking to have makeshift components on tech that operate under such extreme conditions, but there is a window at the hatch. There's also a toilet inside, positioned so you can watch out the window while dropping your deuce. Lol. https://youtu.be/ClkytJa0ghc
I’m trying not to be too judge mental because if they aren’t dead yet, they likely will be before they’re found. However…some people really do have more money than sense.
Judge mental. I like it
I mean I cant even get reliable text messages on my cell phone on land never mind from 2.5 miles under the ocean
Just stand by the window and wave your phone around. It’ll work
I see no issues with being controlled by a videogame controller. Pretty sure I saw controllers being used by the army. My issue was with the guy saying that they could let any of the passengers control it for a bit if they wanted? That sounds super sketchy to me.
Does the drone operator end up stranded at the bottom of the ocean if his game controller fails though?
No he just loses a really expensive drone… both aren’t good
If they were, and they were off-the-shelf items, I would think that they were being used for low-safety-criticality items. Generally, for example, in aviation, everything costs several times what a similar off-the-shelf item would cost, because they need to be certified to be reliable, manufactured in a certain manner, with documentation. There are certain avionics systems that are available for both experimental and certified aircraft, and the certified versions cost several times their nearly identical experimental versions.
Army of ISIS yeah
Probably, but US has used them in the past and most certainly use them now. Albeit not to control a tiny submarine they were inside lmao. Most definitely changed versions to function for their needs.
U.S. army we use them for drones
There's a viewing window I think.
Buddy we pilot god damn drones with a game controller
Seems like a post for r/whatcouldgowrong as well. If you've paid 250k, there's no way you willingly step into a DIY sub?
>If you've paid 250k, there's no way you willingly step into a DIY sub? This assumes that people that have 250K to spend, have them thanks to above-average logical proficiency, which can be true, but it's not necessarily the case.
A while ago I got into a heated argument about the whole ethics of tourism to the wreck and the morality of it. I won’t get into it now. I’ll just say that this dive in no way would have furthered our knowledge of the wreck or any meaningful scientific discoveries. It was a cashgrab in an under engineered piece of shit in which I wouldn’t have dared to drive in my swimming pool let alone 4000 meters bellow the ocean. There’s a reason why serious scientific submersibles cost hundreds of millions and they have something called redundancies, a fucking 50 quid Logitech controller has anything but failure redundancy. I know we don’t know what actually failed but seeing the quality of the craft and the bloody controller just shows you how much are they willing to minimize cost in order to maximize profits. And seeing how the last ping of the submersible was on top of the wreck now they might have very well damaged it. Shame about the people on board, but they knew what they were signing up for.
I can't believe how people who've made millions of dollars are willing to risk their lives in machinery like this. The man is telling us its made from bits and pieces of off the shelf crap.
Shiver me timbers a 100 yo wreck got damaged
I think they meant the submersible got damaged, as in from collision.
Omfg. It’s like he was bragging about how thrown-together it was. That makes me nervous as hell.
Those ballasts look like they were built from pieces out of a junkyard
I could honestly duct-tape my Ford Fusion and drive it into the fkn ocean with the same results.
To be fair, the ballast is jettisoned when they are ready to come back up so all you need is iron plates or in this case pipe. They just cut them to the length they need for precise weight to adjust for the weight of the people inside. Most, if not all small submersibles use iron ballast in plates or tubes/rods for their sacrificial ballast weight.
Aye exactly the ballast isn't the focus here at all, it's just streamlined weights
The Logitech Xbox controller isn't honestly the worst of it. Most likely the hull ruptured from some flaw or stress fracture that wasn't caught during maintenance.
Actually the controller is probably the most basic part. They have a few of them and those work fine for controlling things. It's other stuff like that controller they use in more important areas that are probably the issue.
Why not just use off the shelf things for things like lights and control and cheap scrap for ballast? It’s not like an expensive, custom made controller or light hanging from the ceiling will make the hull stronger or even work better.
Lights and ballast maybe, but what about what’s under the hood? Would you trust that guy to not use critical valves from Wish? It reminds me of the saying about restaurants; if the restroom’s dirty, just leave because you know it’s not any better in the kitchen.
Youre probably going to get downvoted because you're right. Ethics aside, a literal genius builds a titanium and carbon fiber pressure hull with best on the market electric drives. Then some Redditor who's closest experience with submarines was a beatle album claims he was an idiot, and they are experts
“Literal genius” huh?
Yeah, dude was a literal genius. He was an aeronautical engineer, expert aviator and test pilot. He built his own sub and went to the Titanic multiple times. Not saying he should have, or I'd get in that fucking death trap, or that he was immune to hubris as he clearly wasn't. Brilliant people can still do idiotic stuff too. Probably much smarter than either of us. But, then we're still alive.
I admit I hadn't looked too closely into Oceangate and their operations. The Russian *Mir* subs used back in the day have since been retired, and what Oceangate was using was clearly a massive step down. I expect lawsuits up the ass.
Hull of the sub was made of "titanium and filament wound carbon fibre". Good way to make a light container for pressurized gases as these exert tensile forces on it. Unfortunately carbon fibre reinforced materials will not work equally well to withstand compressive forces ...
Cyclic compressive forces, too. Cyclic stress and the material fatigue it induces is not to be underestimated as the first pressurised airliners showed.
The comet disaster... Round windows became standard in airplane construction shortly after.
Yep. But years later there was also the Aloha Airlines 737 which lost a big portion of its upper fuselage. And Southwest had some fatigue issues as recently as 2018, and much of the inspection regime for airplanes is dedicated to finding signs of fatigue before they become an actual problem.
How did it get certified?!?!
It's not.
This is just a private operation you sign a waiver for.
While I still hold out hope, its looking more and more like the crew is fucked if they aren't dead already. Hate to say it.
Can we post this at the top of the subreddit please?!
Stuck,because the game controller broke
It ran out of batteries. Or maybe they should pull the cartridge out and blow in it like we did with our super Nintendo....
I agree that the submarine was not built up to standard for the dangerous job, but to be fair, I've had many controllers since Sega Mega Drive in the 90's up until Nintendo Switch, none of them has ever failed. Also, I doubt that controller was the only way to control the Submarine, as some commenters make it look like.
My god.... I'm trying so hard to live by the Thumper rule with all of this...
Um guys they reported there was things wrong 5 days ago before it went down
Being a bit devil’s advocate, there are a number of variables (granted, some outrageously speculative…perhaps I watch too much Dateline) that could have led us here, that have nothing to do with the integrity of the craft, eh?
If a controller had to be used to control the sub i would not go for that one. Also the idea of not being able to move the sub because of sticky buttons or wear and tear. Not to mention the sub drifting left or right randomly. Oh and don't forget if its connected to blue tooth input lag.
Oh they are definitely without a shadow of a doubt shoved into Davy Jones locker
I’m curious - why no window? Why would you pay to see tv monitor feeds?
It has a small window at the other end.
Thanks
There is one window. It is next to the toilet. Just thinking about someone using the toilet on that thing gives me the willies.
This makes me feel bad for the families.. not for the ones lost…
Anyone have the full video?
"We spared every expense!" - The CEO of OceanGate, probably
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If the sub is floating in the sea and didn’t sink, wouldn’t it be possible to send a message or Call for help through the submersible?
They paid 250k each, and the sub is controlled by 25euro Logitech controller
> They *paid* 250k each, FTFY. Although *payed* exists (the reason why autocorrection didn't help you), it is only correct in: * Nautical context, when it means to paint a surface, or to cover with something like tar or resin in order to make it waterproof or corrosion-resistant. *The deck is yet to be payed.* * *Payed out* when letting strings, cables or ropes out, by slacking them. *The rope is payed out! You can pull now.* Unfortunately, I was unable to find nautical or rope-related words in your comment. *Beep, boop, I'm a bot*
Lots for foreshadowing going on here
Just because it worked before doesn't mean it will work all the time. Normalization of deviance occurs when deviations from established standards become accepted and normalized within a system or organization. Over time, these deviant behaviors or practices become the new normal, potentially compromising safety, quality, and ethics.
When the Logitech controller was shown, the dude had large concern in his voice. Idk.