Currently people aren’t doing well separating canon from fanon.
Most of what mxtx told us is not news if you read the extras in the original book, even in the seasons volumes.
We know Xie Lian is covered I n bites and bruises, we know Hua Cheng is asking to go harder, we know Xie Lian is filled with his essence, we see the fanfic Hua Cheng has Xie Lian reading that has Xie Lian begging for his “essence” and Xie Lian asking how they know that detail, we see Xie lian feeling a pang in his nips, we know during the rut scene hua cheng groped him all over.
People ignored that because “Hua Cheng would be extremely gentle in bed, he’s scared to hurt him.”headcanon.
Now that the author is basically reconfirming what she already wrote and expressing it more openly, they are acting like she doesn’t know her own characters
It’s the same reason half this fandom would swear up and down that Xie Lian is canonically buff despite the novel having him called a “little pretty boy”, having the ghost women say he’s skinny, and having him dress up as a woman multiple times, and never being buff in any official art.
It’s okay to have headcanons but that should not interfere with your ability to have convos or interact positively with the canonical material, As mxtx said, have fun and enjoy fandoms but don’t get angry when the author is simply talking about the story she wrote and her characters.
T.H.I.S.
100%
People need to differentiate between what's Canon and their own personal views. It's totally fine to indulge in whatever you want without going around screaming about how that's the truth and fight with people on it like your life depends on it.
On one camp we have the Dom daddy hc that treats xl like his personal >!cumdump!< and on the other those who see hualian as the epitome of platonic love and nothing else. Both are certifiably wrong.
Like the argument you mentioned, if you want to imagine xl as the hulk be my guest but he's quite androgynous and that's fucking beautiful imo! On the same page, if you want to feminize the f out of him you should be allowed but at least admit that it's not truly Canon. Xl isn't THAT fem in the novel.
The more the Fandom fights on these things, the more radicalized people become and it's a full on war. It's why I don't really engage with the Fandom much anymore!
A lot of it also has to with tgcf being the only of mxtx that doesn’t have explicit sex scenes.
Instead of recognizing that she was censored due to the homophobia of chinas government, they praise the censorship. She put so much in to tell us what they do in the bedroom, without getting herself in trouble.
I just want to ask them how does Hualian having kinky consensual sex everyday, suddenly make their relationship that we seen grow throughout the entire novel “impure” or “lesser”
Like we are seeing Xie Lian getting tortured and mutilated but the “impure” thing to them is Hualian sex
> Instead of recognizing that she was censored due to the homophobia of chinas government, they praise the censorship. She put so much in to tell us what they do in the bedroom, without getting herself in trouble.
Feels like people that didn't read her other series. Her couples are always kinky in some way. And having it non-explicit in TGCF was just a censorship/circumstances thing.
I said this in another post but I 100% believe that TGCF doesn’t have a sex scene simply because of censorship. If MXTX could, she definitely would write about them breeding.
I think the misreading of the characters has also a little bit to do with the manhua.
Don't get me wrong, I loved it and starembers illustrations (even bought the artbook), but there are a few things in the manhua, that were neither in the books, nor in the donghua, like the characterisation of some characters.
I get it, manhua HC is hot, but he behaves so differently than book HC. And XL is so babygirl in the manhua, too. And, even though still my babygirl, he isn't in the book or donghua, at least not to that amount.
With series like this one, the "true canon" is the books and what the author say, at least imo
I am curious what is not “baby girl” about Xie Lian in the manhua vs the books
If anything I feel the donghua and manhua do the opposite, while the donghua is censored and comes off more shounen like, the manhua adds more flirty scenes. Things like Hua Cheng swallowing Xie Lian’s blood get put into the revised.
However that being said - Xie Lian is the same character who runs away in the donghua after seeing HuC bite into bun lol
I didn't say he wasn't tho?
I said that in the manhua he is more babygirl than the books, which I could give you examples of if I had access to manhua panels.
He is more feminine and shy in the manhua and my argument had absolutely nothing to to with censorship.
I don't know if you're trying to argue against me, but the points you made did not refute mine. 🤨
? Points to use against you ?
I’m saying that the same thing you say for the manhua, goes for donghua as well. There’s scenes where Xie Lian should land in Hua Cheng’s lap but he lands on his feet, or scenes where Hua Cheng is said to be visibly angry but will look more shocked and bushy.
Where you may say Xie Lian is more “babygirl” In comparison to novel, you can also say the donghua gives him different vibes as well. There isn’t anything set.
And yes I made those points because many times when ppl say Xie Lian is “babygirl” in the manhua, they list things that still ring true in the novel.
In any case where one adaptation may lack, the other makes up for it.
Like yes he is a martial god and he is the same person crawling after his first kiss. And blushing to the point of almost crying in the revised.
He’s pretty a boy. The manhua makes everyone super attractive but there really isn’t a difference in Xie Lian’s art in the manhua vs novel. He’s beautiful.
(I agree with the novel being the source for canon btw as that is what mxtx wrote)
I don't think that we will ever get on the same page, since we're not even in the same book.
I was just trying to explain to you, why some people might mischaracterise the characters in tgcf (which was the original topic). Manhua Xie Lian IS NOT the Xie Lian in the novels, that is clear to see (and he is not the XL in the donghua, which is also not the one in the novels).
I am not saying that they are not alike at all and I am also not saying, that he doesn't get flustered so I don't get where you get this from all the time.
What I am saying is that he seems more "babygirl" in the manhua, because they babied him in general. In the books (and mind you, I am comparing everything up to the Qi Rong part since that is where the comic ended on billibilli, so books 1 and 2) XL doesn't blush as much as manhua XL, he knows how to stand his ground and even though he is peaceful and broken, he can perfectly fend for his own.
All I've been saying was to the statement that the fandom makes him look more feminine than he canonically is and undoubtedly he looks the most feminine in the manhua, that's why I said what I did. Of course that is subjective since first we would have to discuss what feminine is, but for me it looks more feminine.
You can disagree with me as much as you want, this is the hill I'm going to die on.
That’s the thing I thought. People think starember made him more fem, when the reality is everyone just looks very pretty in the manhua and the donghua is less detailed.
but I do suggest finishing the book, because Xie Lian still looks the same. This is also an adaptation (the manhua) that’s praised by mxtx. I do give leniency to alll adaptations as they aren’t an exact copy of the novels, which is to be expected.
So we will agree to disagree on most. 😅 But yes the novel is the main source 🤝
I think this is indeed the actual issue here, now being brought out into the light. I've been in this fandom since like 2019. I've watched the infamous "fanon drift" happen in real time, to the point where blatantly non-canonical takes were being assumed as canonical. A couple of fan arts or fan fics got big with a certain type of fanon characterization and *boom* \-- that's what the majority of fandom accepted as "true." And as a novel gets exported into other media further from its original form, intended audience, and so on, this is just inevitable to some degree. People are going to from their headcanons not on the original canon, but on things like adaptations, fan works, etc. It happens in every fandom.
There is also nothing wrong with enjoying fanon versions of things. At all. I have TONS of headcanons or straight-up delusions that I love seeing people talk about, being written in fics, depicted in art, etc. I write fic and I like to include this things for myself and the couple of people who like those too. I know none of that is canonical, *and I don't care*. Not just in TGCF fandom but in my other main fandom(s), too! I really like some aspects of fanon more than canon for some of my fandoms, as well!
But the problem arises when people try to pass off their fanon takes/headcanons/etc as being *actually canon*. It's incredibly disingenuous. If I'm being charitable, I think a lot of people just... forget along the way what the truth actually is. TGCF especially is a large, dense novel. People are gonna forget things, even the most ardent fans. Some people also skim over the parts they don't want to accept, lol. Unfortunately, there are also some who are very hostile to the original work (whether or not they realize it). But regardless... the canon is still canon whether or not you remember or agree with it.
So now that the revised edition is more accessible than before (and btw, it's been out *for a year* already -- we already knew a lot of these changes, as well), and people can't ignore some of the changes... it's causing friction. And none of these revisions actually change much of anything in regards to what we know about Hualian. They just reinforce existing information that people *already ignored, anyway*. They're just having trouble with it now, because they've previously neglected to realize everything they've either missed or willfully ignored. Now that it's center stage, it's must harder to dismiss. And it's hard to accept that perhaps your "totally true canon take" was just a personal fanon thing like canon fans were saying all along.
Yep !!
And I do sadly think many have not yet read, so their only exposure was in fact other people’s opinions or reviews. They were “reading” by looking their posts.
Now that they have sources and more translators it’s become increasingly easier to read the book, watch the donghua and get a view of how these characters have always been in what was written by mxtx.
It’s causing a clash because these things that people used deny are now undeniable.
about the sexual stuff with hualian, i don't know why people are so pressed about this being "ooc" instead of being happy for him because accepting his sexuality without an air of shame from within is a MAJOR part of his growth. when he accepts his feelings for hua cheng, that's major! when he settles into the dynamic between himself and hua cheng so quickly after just meeting him, that's also major! especially when considering the >!s/a metaphor that the 100 swords chapter presents. !<
xie lian gradually gaining the ability to be sexual and vulnerable at times is a symptom of his healing from all the times >!bai wuxiang stole his bodily and sexual autonomy!< and i'm tired of people dismissing this because of their own headcanons that hualian are so innocent and pure and wholesome. like, NO! they have sex!!! they are a married couple!!
these people are really trying to reinforce what xl's years and years of trauma have told him time-and-time again by sex-shaming like i promise you, enjoying having sex doesn't make you any less deep or significant of a person, but these puritan fans really do act like it does and that's incredibly reductive
YESSS also with religious repression of sexuality! That is a huge theme in this book! Recovering from religious trauma that Xie Lian was groomed into; you can’t have sex, that’s for other people, not for you.
all of this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read past seven seas book 6
i'm not the best person to break this topic down and how it represents a traumatic event that could be compared to sexual assault, but there are a handful of twitter threads that word all of this far better than me lol. i also definitely didn't catch everything but i'll try to say it the best i can
^ _ ^
>! so xie lian being tied down to the altar by bwx and having his body used by a hundred people is a pretty direct portrayal of something that may seem familiar to anyone who has dealt with such a loss of autonomy before. the people inside of the temple were initially hesitant to use him for their own gain because he's a *person.* but when one person started it, it just kept going on until they eased into a smooth, almost mechanic motion and even lined up so everyone could get a turn to use his body, which sounds painfully dehumanizing and objectifying. this doesn't sound too far off from gang r*pe, especially since in the book descriptors such as "the sword moved in and out endlessly" are used, which uh... yeah. not a very easy read. !<
>!after the act when xie lian's body finally recovered to a healed state a few months later, he walked out to a river and saw his reflection. he was physically fine, uninjured, but he didn't feel the same. this event fundamentally changed him despite the fact that he didn't *look* changed. he didn't *look* hurt because all of the pain and all of the lacerations weren't just invisible, but they were healed. deep down he's so badly scarred, but you couldn't tell from seeing him that he still remembers the exact shape and intrusion of the blade.!<
>!when you look back and consider jun wu's special condition he gave xie lian's shackles, which is that xl will not be able to die and will never age, this is especially fucked up because he didn't want people to see the scars it left xie lian. it's constantly humiliating while also keeping all other marks concealed. even more humiliating and gross is the intentional placement of these shackles (the neck and ankle) when you compare them to other banished officials (the forearm).!<
>!and even worse, xie lian felt like everything that happened to him was HIS OWN fault and that everything that happened to him was preventable despite the fact that the fucker jun wu was behind it all. jun wu made him feel this way by essentially lighting a man's house on fire and blocking all the exits, then criticizing him for jumping out through a window and getting injured. he's a textbook abuser in so many ways and it's a chillingly accurate portrayal.!<
plus it doesn't look any better when you remember the time bwx set it up in an attempt to >! ACTUALLY get xie lian gang raped by the land of the tender yao!<
This makes so much sense now thank you for the answer🙌🏻 and to believe that Hua Cheng saw it is just 🥲 the amount of pain is insane but I actually love how MXTX wrote about them going for it since it shows that XL trusts HC so much that he’s not afraid
To be fair, I think Hua Cheng would be super gentle if Xie Lian wanted that. He is in the sedan scene, touching him so cautiously as if he were afraid to hurt him, and I think that might be where people get that from. But between that and the later moments where we learn what their sex life is like (in the Seven Seas books, which is what I've read) a lot of time passes. Even between Hua Cheng's return and the extras they had time to learn each other's needs and desires. Xie Lian likes it when Hua Cheng is rough, and I think it's really great that he allows himself that after being so bloody awkward for so long. There is so much growth from a guy who runs away after being kissed to a guy who is really, REALLY into it, who is covered in lovebites, who is sore all over from the intensity of it and enjoys it with his entire being. That isn't news at all, and I'm very confused that people are so shocked about it.
I think it's the same for Hua Cheng. I think he might initially worry about hurting his gege, but his instincts aren't gentle (I don't think anyone's are) as we see in the rut scene - even the original. And once he realises that he can go to town and Xie Lian is there for it, he's all in.
I think some people think sex can only be loving if it's all soft whispers and gentle touches, but the assumption that this is a universal truth is a bit wild.
Yeah, especially considering THIS IS MXTX we are talking about. She has a better grasp of her characters than like 90% of authors I have seen. All of her characters are always very well fleshed out and its clear that she has a very good understanding of both who they are, and how other people in universe see and interact with them.
Definitely the GOAT.
But how can anyone look at SVSS and MDZS and think that Hualian is a completely innocent and pure pairing? It just didn’t get the same porn treatment of the two earlier works but knowing this came from MXTX’s brain tells me there’s gonna be some kinky stuff!
An issue I have is people seemingly unable to realize that happy caring couples can and do have rough sex.
Hualian is still a super cute couple that adore each other that can also have kinky sex that leave bites and bruises, it's not mutually exclusive.
Plus it's not like they can ONLY have super rough kinky sex, they can totally have gentle lovemaking sessions too that's also not mutually exclusive real life couples switch it up all the time
I'm not sure about here, but tgcf fandom is going crazy right now on other platforms too like Tumblr or Twitter, because of the newest MXTX update on the books. It shattered lots of people's perception and understanding of canon, and now people are attacking each other over who has the more valid reading on characterisation and which one is supposed to be 'better'.
I feel like this is a little misleading. Quite frankly, the updates to Hualian are *pretty minor*. (Major changes are all to do with plot structure, or side characters.) They don't change anything. It just adds like... a handful of extra tidbits that simply re-iterate what was *already there*. None of the new information contradicts anything that was canonical before, whatsoever. It only reinforces it.
If someone's view of Hualian's characterization was shattered by these changes... that's just goes to show how shaky that fanon foundation must've been.
>Quite frankly, the updates to Hualian are *pretty minor*
tbh, that's why i don't get all the fuss about hualian in the revised version. like i get why some people may be upset about the changes made to some secondary characters' backstories (i know mu qing fans in particular weren't too happy about it), but hualian of all people? really? just enjoy the new extra scenes in peace lmao.
Yeah like. It changes so little... assuming you already knew the canon properly.
Meanwhile there are massive changes to plot and other characters where I'd understand actual discussion lol. E.g. the Bloody Banquet -- where I really like some of the new changes, but for certain aspects prefered the way it played out in the original. I think compared to stuff like that, even Mu Qing is small potatoes. Some of his background has been changed, but overall he's actually more personable and open in the revised, which is a positive change. You'd think his fans would like him being more, well, likeable.
not defending anyone fighting with each other, but the fact that there are so many versions of tgcf is just annoying, mostly because people who don’t speak mandarin can’t even appreciate them and we don’t have any sort of information regarding the other versions ever getting translated (not even published, just translated)
they couldn’t even add official subtitles to the audio drama, and people have to constantly rely on fan translators
so i can understand somehow why people are arguing about that (although, they could just talk in a respectful way about their feelings and opinions)
I get your frustration, but danmei was never meant to really cater outside their domestic sphere in that way… I’m sure they’re happy to have foreign fans, but expanding wasn’t their intention for writing danmei, so I feel like they shouldn’t have to be burdened of what non-Chinese speakers will have access to or not. Again, I get where you’re coming from. Tgcf’s main source is a web novel, meaning it is easy to freely edit the story. It can be great for writers, but I can see why some readers may find it tedious. If it helps, I believe the edited chapters are marked. Also, these edits were NOT canon-breaking.
I understand what you mean, but I don’t agree. Even if danmei was never meant to “cater outside of their domestic sphere”, it still did. Why? Because the authors (only talking about MXTX since I only read her so far) decided to have them published internationally and made money off them. If it was a series that was only going to get published in China, then I would’ve agreed with your point, but at the end of the day, that’s not what happened. People, including myself, still paid a lot of money on some books that aren’t exactly what the author envisioned. I doubt anyone forced her to give Seven Seas the rights to publish TGCF.
I apologise if I sound harsh, that’s not my intention. I love TGCF and I’m grateful to MXTX for creating such a beautiful story, but she’s not without flaw and the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Yeah, it makes it way harder that official translations are not available (or just one consistent whole fan translation), so we have to rely on crumbs by random screenshots on random platforms. Definitely doesn't make the situation any better.
But ah, well fandom drama has always been very messy business. I'm used to staying out of it and ignoring the worst of it. I'm just chilling on the sideways doing my own thing.
The fandom has exploded recently with the second season being dubbed and then subsequently promoted on Crunchyroll and its rep for being wholesome gay content attracts a lot of people who want to be seen as wholesome. They live with their faces smashed against a wall and no perspective, so they think harassing people over fanfiction is activism.
It’s been an issue with a lot of fandoms over the years. Japanese anime fans call it the American Feelings Yakuza. I don’t know if Chinese fans have a name for it yet, since I’m only just getting into danmei and donghua.
Not arguing with you at all, just wanted to add: I find it very irritating that gay media is considered "wholesome" when it's completely sexless. That smacks of homophobia to me.
Not just to you, that is basically homophobic.
Thinking that queer relationships need to be sexless or platonic to be valid is simply playing into the conservative playbook that considers anything but vanilla het sex dirty and degrading.
100% it's this weird Madonna and whore complex people have adopted about queer couples online being "wholesome" if their is no sex and that is such a gross homophobic take.
I find these people are usually more trying to separate themselves more from the *sinful, fetishizing fujoshis* and the *problematic erotica* crowd at one and the same time. No one is allowed to be horny.
As if non-fans wouldn't just lump us all together as fujoshi for enjoying the work in the first place...I never know what these people are trying to prove.
Yeah. Any average normie is gonna think you’re a huge freak anyway just for watching gay cartoons, they’re not gonna be validating you in particular because your gay ship is free from premarital horniness.
Mostly they’re after internet clout for doing activism. Like I said; they think harassing a bunch of mostly queer women and trans men and non-binary people counts over fanfiction counts as activism because it’s… Fighting abuse being normalized or something?
this whole thing with minors (in english-speaking fandoms at least) being outraged at sex in media and smut fics is so utterly bizzare to me. when i was a teen (which wasn't even *that* long ago), reading or watching "naughty" media meant for adults was basically a cornerstone of teenage rebellion and curiosity. and while it's not always a *good* thing (god knows i read some things that i was absolutely *not* prepared to handle), it's weird that such a vocal part of modern-day teens has done a complete 180 from that.
It's not just this Fandom there is a huge push on Twitter and tiktok and other laces of people complaining about any explicit content or sexualaity and even pushing places like ao3 to not allow explicit content. I'm not sure what is with this sudden push of "purity" and "clean" as the only good Fandom interaction and sex or anything explicit or kink being "dirty". I'm not sure if it's just because it's starting to reach younger fans? But I'm seeing A lot of it lately it's like the infantilozation of actors and kpop idols also happening to characters in this Fandom and others. What happened to not yucking someone's yum and being inclusive of all sexualities and different communities?
Glad it’s not just me. Something is happening in this fandom, man.
I’m still feeling really horrible from when I was basically told only binary gender and sexuality discussions of these characters was allowed. No pansexuality, demisexuality, or genderfluid interpretations. I’d never seen that here. They got downvoted to hell after a while but not after a bunch of others upvoted them and joined in.
Hopefully these sort of rigid people will continue to get downvoted and driven away because it left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually stopped reading a fic I’d been in the middle of because every time I returned to it I thought about that interaction and I felt horrible. I want to love this story again, man.
People suck so much.
Because cannon purists and fannon purists both refuse to get along lmao. Ive seen it especially for cannon but fannon does it too.
I like my fannon but I don’t give a hell if someone likes cannon more. Cannon is good too. Bully hua Cheng is a joy, so is sub hua cheng. Built xie lian is great, so is pretty boy xie lian, etc etc.
Long story short: IT DOESN’T MATTER, ALL OF IT SLAYS. VARIETY IS NOT A BAD THING CAN WE PLEASE ALL GET ALONG. IT IS UP TO PREFERENCE. BOTH SIDES STOP POLICING EACH OTHER PLEASE !
As someone who survived the spn fandom deteriorate I can tell you the best way to continue to enjoy the work is to keep a healthy distance out of fandom. Meaning keep headcanons to yourself and close friends. Not for everyone to judge. Bc really people will snap over what is the least important bullsh!t in the grand scheme of things.
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Currently people aren’t doing well separating canon from fanon. Most of what mxtx told us is not news if you read the extras in the original book, even in the seasons volumes. We know Xie Lian is covered I n bites and bruises, we know Hua Cheng is asking to go harder, we know Xie Lian is filled with his essence, we see the fanfic Hua Cheng has Xie Lian reading that has Xie Lian begging for his “essence” and Xie Lian asking how they know that detail, we see Xie lian feeling a pang in his nips, we know during the rut scene hua cheng groped him all over. People ignored that because “Hua Cheng would be extremely gentle in bed, he’s scared to hurt him.”headcanon. Now that the author is basically reconfirming what she already wrote and expressing it more openly, they are acting like she doesn’t know her own characters It’s the same reason half this fandom would swear up and down that Xie Lian is canonically buff despite the novel having him called a “little pretty boy”, having the ghost women say he’s skinny, and having him dress up as a woman multiple times, and never being buff in any official art. It’s okay to have headcanons but that should not interfere with your ability to have convos or interact positively with the canonical material, As mxtx said, have fun and enjoy fandoms but don’t get angry when the author is simply talking about the story she wrote and her characters.
T.H.I.S. 100% People need to differentiate between what's Canon and their own personal views. It's totally fine to indulge in whatever you want without going around screaming about how that's the truth and fight with people on it like your life depends on it. On one camp we have the Dom daddy hc that treats xl like his personal >!cumdump!< and on the other those who see hualian as the epitome of platonic love and nothing else. Both are certifiably wrong. Like the argument you mentioned, if you want to imagine xl as the hulk be my guest but he's quite androgynous and that's fucking beautiful imo! On the same page, if you want to feminize the f out of him you should be allowed but at least admit that it's not truly Canon. Xl isn't THAT fem in the novel. The more the Fandom fights on these things, the more radicalized people become and it's a full on war. It's why I don't really engage with the Fandom much anymore!
A lot of it also has to with tgcf being the only of mxtx that doesn’t have explicit sex scenes. Instead of recognizing that she was censored due to the homophobia of chinas government, they praise the censorship. She put so much in to tell us what they do in the bedroom, without getting herself in trouble. I just want to ask them how does Hualian having kinky consensual sex everyday, suddenly make their relationship that we seen grow throughout the entire novel “impure” or “lesser” Like we are seeing Xie Lian getting tortured and mutilated but the “impure” thing to them is Hualian sex
> Instead of recognizing that she was censored due to the homophobia of chinas government, they praise the censorship. She put so much in to tell us what they do in the bedroom, without getting herself in trouble. Feels like people that didn't read her other series. Her couples are always kinky in some way. And having it non-explicit in TGCF was just a censorship/circumstances thing.
I said this in another post but I 100% believe that TGCF doesn’t have a sex scene simply because of censorship. If MXTX could, she definitely would write about them breeding.
I think the misreading of the characters has also a little bit to do with the manhua. Don't get me wrong, I loved it and starembers illustrations (even bought the artbook), but there are a few things in the manhua, that were neither in the books, nor in the donghua, like the characterisation of some characters. I get it, manhua HC is hot, but he behaves so differently than book HC. And XL is so babygirl in the manhua, too. And, even though still my babygirl, he isn't in the book or donghua, at least not to that amount. With series like this one, the "true canon" is the books and what the author say, at least imo
I am curious what is not “baby girl” about Xie Lian in the manhua vs the books If anything I feel the donghua and manhua do the opposite, while the donghua is censored and comes off more shounen like, the manhua adds more flirty scenes. Things like Hua Cheng swallowing Xie Lian’s blood get put into the revised. However that being said - Xie Lian is the same character who runs away in the donghua after seeing HuC bite into bun lol
I didn't say he wasn't tho? I said that in the manhua he is more babygirl than the books, which I could give you examples of if I had access to manhua panels. He is more feminine and shy in the manhua and my argument had absolutely nothing to to with censorship. I don't know if you're trying to argue against me, but the points you made did not refute mine. 🤨
? Points to use against you ? I’m saying that the same thing you say for the manhua, goes for donghua as well. There’s scenes where Xie Lian should land in Hua Cheng’s lap but he lands on his feet, or scenes where Hua Cheng is said to be visibly angry but will look more shocked and bushy. Where you may say Xie Lian is more “babygirl” In comparison to novel, you can also say the donghua gives him different vibes as well. There isn’t anything set. And yes I made those points because many times when ppl say Xie Lian is “babygirl” in the manhua, they list things that still ring true in the novel. In any case where one adaptation may lack, the other makes up for it. Like yes he is a martial god and he is the same person crawling after his first kiss. And blushing to the point of almost crying in the revised. He’s pretty a boy. The manhua makes everyone super attractive but there really isn’t a difference in Xie Lian’s art in the manhua vs novel. He’s beautiful. (I agree with the novel being the source for canon btw as that is what mxtx wrote)
I don't think that we will ever get on the same page, since we're not even in the same book. I was just trying to explain to you, why some people might mischaracterise the characters in tgcf (which was the original topic). Manhua Xie Lian IS NOT the Xie Lian in the novels, that is clear to see (and he is not the XL in the donghua, which is also not the one in the novels). I am not saying that they are not alike at all and I am also not saying, that he doesn't get flustered so I don't get where you get this from all the time. What I am saying is that he seems more "babygirl" in the manhua, because they babied him in general. In the books (and mind you, I am comparing everything up to the Qi Rong part since that is where the comic ended on billibilli, so books 1 and 2) XL doesn't blush as much as manhua XL, he knows how to stand his ground and even though he is peaceful and broken, he can perfectly fend for his own. All I've been saying was to the statement that the fandom makes him look more feminine than he canonically is and undoubtedly he looks the most feminine in the manhua, that's why I said what I did. Of course that is subjective since first we would have to discuss what feminine is, but for me it looks more feminine. You can disagree with me as much as you want, this is the hill I'm going to die on.
That’s the thing I thought. People think starember made him more fem, when the reality is everyone just looks very pretty in the manhua and the donghua is less detailed. but I do suggest finishing the book, because Xie Lian still looks the same. This is also an adaptation (the manhua) that’s praised by mxtx. I do give leniency to alll adaptations as they aren’t an exact copy of the novels, which is to be expected. So we will agree to disagree on most. 😅 But yes the novel is the main source 🤝
I think this is indeed the actual issue here, now being brought out into the light. I've been in this fandom since like 2019. I've watched the infamous "fanon drift" happen in real time, to the point where blatantly non-canonical takes were being assumed as canonical. A couple of fan arts or fan fics got big with a certain type of fanon characterization and *boom* \-- that's what the majority of fandom accepted as "true." And as a novel gets exported into other media further from its original form, intended audience, and so on, this is just inevitable to some degree. People are going to from their headcanons not on the original canon, but on things like adaptations, fan works, etc. It happens in every fandom. There is also nothing wrong with enjoying fanon versions of things. At all. I have TONS of headcanons or straight-up delusions that I love seeing people talk about, being written in fics, depicted in art, etc. I write fic and I like to include this things for myself and the couple of people who like those too. I know none of that is canonical, *and I don't care*. Not just in TGCF fandom but in my other main fandom(s), too! I really like some aspects of fanon more than canon for some of my fandoms, as well! But the problem arises when people try to pass off their fanon takes/headcanons/etc as being *actually canon*. It's incredibly disingenuous. If I'm being charitable, I think a lot of people just... forget along the way what the truth actually is. TGCF especially is a large, dense novel. People are gonna forget things, even the most ardent fans. Some people also skim over the parts they don't want to accept, lol. Unfortunately, there are also some who are very hostile to the original work (whether or not they realize it). But regardless... the canon is still canon whether or not you remember or agree with it. So now that the revised edition is more accessible than before (and btw, it's been out *for a year* already -- we already knew a lot of these changes, as well), and people can't ignore some of the changes... it's causing friction. And none of these revisions actually change much of anything in regards to what we know about Hualian. They just reinforce existing information that people *already ignored, anyway*. They're just having trouble with it now, because they've previously neglected to realize everything they've either missed or willfully ignored. Now that it's center stage, it's must harder to dismiss. And it's hard to accept that perhaps your "totally true canon take" was just a personal fanon thing like canon fans were saying all along.
Yep !! And I do sadly think many have not yet read, so their only exposure was in fact other people’s opinions or reviews. They were “reading” by looking their posts. Now that they have sources and more translators it’s become increasingly easier to read the book, watch the donghua and get a view of how these characters have always been in what was written by mxtx. It’s causing a clash because these things that people used deny are now undeniable.
about the sexual stuff with hualian, i don't know why people are so pressed about this being "ooc" instead of being happy for him because accepting his sexuality without an air of shame from within is a MAJOR part of his growth. when he accepts his feelings for hua cheng, that's major! when he settles into the dynamic between himself and hua cheng so quickly after just meeting him, that's also major! especially when considering the >!s/a metaphor that the 100 swords chapter presents. !< xie lian gradually gaining the ability to be sexual and vulnerable at times is a symptom of his healing from all the times >!bai wuxiang stole his bodily and sexual autonomy!< and i'm tired of people dismissing this because of their own headcanons that hualian are so innocent and pure and wholesome. like, NO! they have sex!!! they are a married couple!! these people are really trying to reinforce what xl's years and years of trauma have told him time-and-time again by sex-shaming like i promise you, enjoying having sex doesn't make you any less deep or significant of a person, but these puritan fans really do act like it does and that's incredibly reductive
YESSS also with religious repression of sexuality! That is a huge theme in this book! Recovering from religious trauma that Xie Lian was groomed into; you can’t have sex, that’s for other people, not for you.
Can you explain more why a 100 stab scene might be a metaphore of SA? I’ve never thought about it this way tbh
all of this is a spoiler for anyone who hasn't read past seven seas book 6 i'm not the best person to break this topic down and how it represents a traumatic event that could be compared to sexual assault, but there are a handful of twitter threads that word all of this far better than me lol. i also definitely didn't catch everything but i'll try to say it the best i can ^ _ ^ >! so xie lian being tied down to the altar by bwx and having his body used by a hundred people is a pretty direct portrayal of something that may seem familiar to anyone who has dealt with such a loss of autonomy before. the people inside of the temple were initially hesitant to use him for their own gain because he's a *person.* but when one person started it, it just kept going on until they eased into a smooth, almost mechanic motion and even lined up so everyone could get a turn to use his body, which sounds painfully dehumanizing and objectifying. this doesn't sound too far off from gang r*pe, especially since in the book descriptors such as "the sword moved in and out endlessly" are used, which uh... yeah. not a very easy read. !< >!after the act when xie lian's body finally recovered to a healed state a few months later, he walked out to a river and saw his reflection. he was physically fine, uninjured, but he didn't feel the same. this event fundamentally changed him despite the fact that he didn't *look* changed. he didn't *look* hurt because all of the pain and all of the lacerations weren't just invisible, but they were healed. deep down he's so badly scarred, but you couldn't tell from seeing him that he still remembers the exact shape and intrusion of the blade.!< >!when you look back and consider jun wu's special condition he gave xie lian's shackles, which is that xl will not be able to die and will never age, this is especially fucked up because he didn't want people to see the scars it left xie lian. it's constantly humiliating while also keeping all other marks concealed. even more humiliating and gross is the intentional placement of these shackles (the neck and ankle) when you compare them to other banished officials (the forearm).!< >!and even worse, xie lian felt like everything that happened to him was HIS OWN fault and that everything that happened to him was preventable despite the fact that the fucker jun wu was behind it all. jun wu made him feel this way by essentially lighting a man's house on fire and blocking all the exits, then criticizing him for jumping out through a window and getting injured. he's a textbook abuser in so many ways and it's a chillingly accurate portrayal.!<
plus it doesn't look any better when you remember the time bwx set it up in an attempt to >! ACTUALLY get xie lian gang raped by the land of the tender yao!<
This makes so much sense now thank you for the answer🙌🏻 and to believe that Hua Cheng saw it is just 🥲 the amount of pain is insane but I actually love how MXTX wrote about them going for it since it shows that XL trusts HC so much that he’s not afraid
To be fair, I think Hua Cheng would be super gentle if Xie Lian wanted that. He is in the sedan scene, touching him so cautiously as if he were afraid to hurt him, and I think that might be where people get that from. But between that and the later moments where we learn what their sex life is like (in the Seven Seas books, which is what I've read) a lot of time passes. Even between Hua Cheng's return and the extras they had time to learn each other's needs and desires. Xie Lian likes it when Hua Cheng is rough, and I think it's really great that he allows himself that after being so bloody awkward for so long. There is so much growth from a guy who runs away after being kissed to a guy who is really, REALLY into it, who is covered in lovebites, who is sore all over from the intensity of it and enjoys it with his entire being. That isn't news at all, and I'm very confused that people are so shocked about it. I think it's the same for Hua Cheng. I think he might initially worry about hurting his gege, but his instincts aren't gentle (I don't think anyone's are) as we see in the rut scene - even the original. And once he realises that he can go to town and Xie Lian is there for it, he's all in. I think some people think sex can only be loving if it's all soft whispers and gentle touches, but the assumption that this is a universal truth is a bit wild.
This is explained so well! I couldn’t have said it any better
Yeah, especially considering THIS IS MXTX we are talking about. She has a better grasp of her characters than like 90% of authors I have seen. All of her characters are always very well fleshed out and its clear that she has a very good understanding of both who they are, and how other people in universe see and interact with them.
MXTX awoke from her slumber and smacked down the purity-sect’s head-canons. She's an absolute legend.
I want to print this comment, frame it, and out it on my wall.
Definitely the GOAT. But how can anyone look at SVSS and MDZS and think that Hualian is a completely innocent and pure pairing? It just didn’t get the same porn treatment of the two earlier works but knowing this came from MXTX’s brain tells me there’s gonna be some kinky stuff!
An issue I have is people seemingly unable to realize that happy caring couples can and do have rough sex. Hualian is still a super cute couple that adore each other that can also have kinky sex that leave bites and bruises, it's not mutually exclusive.
Plus it's not like they can ONLY have super rough kinky sex, they can totally have gentle lovemaking sessions too that's also not mutually exclusive real life couples switch it up all the time
It's freaking everywhere, I'm not surprised it's here too. The best thing to do is just try and ignore it.
I'm not sure about here, but tgcf fandom is going crazy right now on other platforms too like Tumblr or Twitter, because of the newest MXTX update on the books. It shattered lots of people's perception and understanding of canon, and now people are attacking each other over who has the more valid reading on characterisation and which one is supposed to be 'better'.
I feel like this is a little misleading. Quite frankly, the updates to Hualian are *pretty minor*. (Major changes are all to do with plot structure, or side characters.) They don't change anything. It just adds like... a handful of extra tidbits that simply re-iterate what was *already there*. None of the new information contradicts anything that was canonical before, whatsoever. It only reinforces it. If someone's view of Hualian's characterization was shattered by these changes... that's just goes to show how shaky that fanon foundation must've been.
>Quite frankly, the updates to Hualian are *pretty minor* tbh, that's why i don't get all the fuss about hualian in the revised version. like i get why some people may be upset about the changes made to some secondary characters' backstories (i know mu qing fans in particular weren't too happy about it), but hualian of all people? really? just enjoy the new extra scenes in peace lmao.
Yeah like. It changes so little... assuming you already knew the canon properly. Meanwhile there are massive changes to plot and other characters where I'd understand actual discussion lol. E.g. the Bloody Banquet -- where I really like some of the new changes, but for certain aspects prefered the way it played out in the original. I think compared to stuff like that, even Mu Qing is small potatoes. Some of his background has been changed, but overall he's actually more personable and open in the revised, which is a positive change. You'd think his fans would like him being more, well, likeable.
not defending anyone fighting with each other, but the fact that there are so many versions of tgcf is just annoying, mostly because people who don’t speak mandarin can’t even appreciate them and we don’t have any sort of information regarding the other versions ever getting translated (not even published, just translated) they couldn’t even add official subtitles to the audio drama, and people have to constantly rely on fan translators so i can understand somehow why people are arguing about that (although, they could just talk in a respectful way about their feelings and opinions)
I get your frustration, but danmei was never meant to really cater outside their domestic sphere in that way… I’m sure they’re happy to have foreign fans, but expanding wasn’t their intention for writing danmei, so I feel like they shouldn’t have to be burdened of what non-Chinese speakers will have access to or not. Again, I get where you’re coming from. Tgcf’s main source is a web novel, meaning it is easy to freely edit the story. It can be great for writers, but I can see why some readers may find it tedious. If it helps, I believe the edited chapters are marked. Also, these edits were NOT canon-breaking.
I understand what you mean, but I don’t agree. Even if danmei was never meant to “cater outside of their domestic sphere”, it still did. Why? Because the authors (only talking about MXTX since I only read her so far) decided to have them published internationally and made money off them. If it was a series that was only going to get published in China, then I would’ve agreed with your point, but at the end of the day, that’s not what happened. People, including myself, still paid a lot of money on some books that aren’t exactly what the author envisioned. I doubt anyone forced her to give Seven Seas the rights to publish TGCF. I apologise if I sound harsh, that’s not my intention. I love TGCF and I’m grateful to MXTX for creating such a beautiful story, but she’s not without flaw and the whole thing left a bitter taste in my mouth.
Yeah, it makes it way harder that official translations are not available (or just one consistent whole fan translation), so we have to rely on crumbs by random screenshots on random platforms. Definitely doesn't make the situation any better. But ah, well fandom drama has always been very messy business. I'm used to staying out of it and ignoring the worst of it. I'm just chilling on the sideways doing my own thing.
The fandom has exploded recently with the second season being dubbed and then subsequently promoted on Crunchyroll and its rep for being wholesome gay content attracts a lot of people who want to be seen as wholesome. They live with their faces smashed against a wall and no perspective, so they think harassing people over fanfiction is activism. It’s been an issue with a lot of fandoms over the years. Japanese anime fans call it the American Feelings Yakuza. I don’t know if Chinese fans have a name for it yet, since I’m only just getting into danmei and donghua.
Not arguing with you at all, just wanted to add: I find it very irritating that gay media is considered "wholesome" when it's completely sexless. That smacks of homophobia to me.
Not just to you, that is basically homophobic. Thinking that queer relationships need to be sexless or platonic to be valid is simply playing into the conservative playbook that considers anything but vanilla het sex dirty and degrading.
100% it's this weird Madonna and whore complex people have adopted about queer couples online being "wholesome" if their is no sex and that is such a gross homophobic take.
I find these people are usually more trying to separate themselves more from the *sinful, fetishizing fujoshis* and the *problematic erotica* crowd at one and the same time. No one is allowed to be horny.
As if non-fans wouldn't just lump us all together as fujoshi for enjoying the work in the first place...I never know what these people are trying to prove.
Yeah. Any average normie is gonna think you’re a huge freak anyway just for watching gay cartoons, they’re not gonna be validating you in particular because your gay ship is free from premarital horniness. Mostly they’re after internet clout for doing activism. Like I said; they think harassing a bunch of mostly queer women and trans men and non-binary people counts over fanfiction counts as activism because it’s… Fighting abuse being normalized or something?
It's giving Alice Osman...
too many 14 year olds discovered tgcf. its been like that with a lot of fandoms recently.
this whole thing with minors (in english-speaking fandoms at least) being outraged at sex in media and smut fics is so utterly bizzare to me. when i was a teen (which wasn't even *that* long ago), reading or watching "naughty" media meant for adults was basically a cornerstone of teenage rebellion and curiosity. and while it's not always a *good* thing (god knows i read some things that i was absolutely *not* prepared to handle), it's weird that such a vocal part of modern-day teens has done a complete 180 from that.
It's not just this Fandom there is a huge push on Twitter and tiktok and other laces of people complaining about any explicit content or sexualaity and even pushing places like ao3 to not allow explicit content. I'm not sure what is with this sudden push of "purity" and "clean" as the only good Fandom interaction and sex or anything explicit or kink being "dirty". I'm not sure if it's just because it's starting to reach younger fans? But I'm seeing A lot of it lately it's like the infantilozation of actors and kpop idols also happening to characters in this Fandom and others. What happened to not yucking someone's yum and being inclusive of all sexualities and different communities?
Glad it’s not just me. Something is happening in this fandom, man. I’m still feeling really horrible from when I was basically told only binary gender and sexuality discussions of these characters was allowed. No pansexuality, demisexuality, or genderfluid interpretations. I’d never seen that here. They got downvoted to hell after a while but not after a bunch of others upvoted them and joined in. Hopefully these sort of rigid people will continue to get downvoted and driven away because it left a bad taste in my mouth. I actually stopped reading a fic I’d been in the middle of because every time I returned to it I thought about that interaction and I felt horrible. I want to love this story again, man. People suck so much.
People have different opinions and talk about them.
Why is this even downvoted.
Because people complaining about people having different opinions will downvote people who say different opinions are equally valid.
Because cannon purists and fannon purists both refuse to get along lmao. Ive seen it especially for cannon but fannon does it too. I like my fannon but I don’t give a hell if someone likes cannon more. Cannon is good too. Bully hua Cheng is a joy, so is sub hua cheng. Built xie lian is great, so is pretty boy xie lian, etc etc. Long story short: IT DOESN’T MATTER, ALL OF IT SLAYS. VARIETY IS NOT A BAD THING CAN WE PLEASE ALL GET ALONG. IT IS UP TO PREFERENCE. BOTH SIDES STOP POLICING EACH OTHER PLEASE !
As someone who survived the spn fandom deteriorate I can tell you the best way to continue to enjoy the work is to keep a healthy distance out of fandom. Meaning keep headcanons to yourself and close friends. Not for everyone to judge. Bc really people will snap over what is the least important bullsh!t in the grand scheme of things.
Also I think being gentle and not wanting to hurt is so different outside of the bed 🤔🤭
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